Woman's Hour - Freida Pinto in Love Sonia

Episode Date: January 23, 2019

Inspired by real life events, a new film ‘Love Sonia’ is the story of a young girl from a small village in India who finds herself caught up in the global sex trafficking industry. One of the stars of the film is Freida Pinto. She joins Jenni to discuss. The first leader of the Women’s Equality Party is standing down. Sophie Walker has been doing the job since 2015. In 2017 her party published a manifesto full of feminist policies from which she openly invited all the mainstream parties to steal. She has said repeatedly that she wants to change the way we do politics. And yesterday, she sought to change it saying that “sometimes in order to lead, you have to get out of the way”. She explains what she meant and why she’s decided to go now. Basma Khalifa was born in Saudi Arabia, but grew up in Northern Ireland before moving to London as a stylist. In a new BBC 3 documentary, she explores whether it’s a place she could consider living in again. Basma and Director Jessica Kelly discuss their experience. An Irish couple say they've been denied an abortion in an Irish hospital even though their unborn baby had a fatal foetal abnormality. They were told by doctors to wait for a miscarriage. Their situation has been brought up in the Irish Parliament, with their consent, and it’s raising questions about whether Irish hospitals are ready, or willing, to implement the new law on abortion. There was a referendum last Spring in which the Irish people voted 66.4% in favour of Repealing the Eighth Amendment, which was a law restricting access to abortion. We hear the facts. Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Sophie Walker Interviewed Guest: Freida Pinto Interviewed Guest: Basma Khalifa Interviewed Guest: Jessica Kelly Interviewed Guest: Dr Peter Boylan

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Wednesday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Love, Sonia is a film made in India that pulls no punches on the horrors of the global sex trafficking industry. Frida Pinto, who made her name in Slumpdog Millionaire, explains why she was keen to take part. The new law on abortion in the Irish Republic, as a woman is refused determination and her case is raised in Parliament, how confident are doctors about making the decision to proceed or not? And as Saudi Arabia seems to become more woman-friendly as an environment, a young woman who was born there but raised in Northern Ireland visits her aunts to see if she could live there. Will she or won't she?

Now, the Women's Equality Party was founded in 2015, and Sophie Walker has been its leader since the beginning. In 2017, her party published an election manifesto full of feminist policies, including a costed plan for free childcare from nine months to school age and heavy investment in health and social care. The leader openly invited all the mainstream parties to steal their ideas. She said repeatedly that she wants to change the way we do politics. Well, yesterday she announced her plan to step down, saying sometimes in order to lead, you have to get out of the way. What does she mean by that? What I'm doing is challenging traditional rules and challenging traditional ideas of leadership.

The Women's Equality Party was launched by a group of women as a collective of women working together to find and support the women who felt that politics was not for them, who felt that they couldn't be involved. It didn't speak to them. It wasn't relevant to them. And I think we have made extraordinary progress as a party. I'm incredibly proud of the gains that we add every time we run an election, the impact that our policies have had on the other parties,

the many thousands of women who've come forward already. But I think that there is a point when, as a leader, you have to consider other forms of leadership. We have this sort of, as I said in my resignation statement yesterday, we have this very heroic idea of both activism and leadership, which is that there's one person out there in front going repeatedly into battle. And I think it's not a model that works.

It's not working in Parliament. And it's extremely hard on any one person. And I think particularly it doesn't encourage women forward. The number of women who have said to me, I really admire you and I love the party, but God, I wouldn't want your job. But why go now when there's speculation about a general election? There's always going to, I mean, there's speculation about a general election constantly.

I mean, if I waited until politics was calm again, I'd be in this job for the next 20 years. And I think that this is particularly, like when we are in a traditional leadership election cycle, is not the time to do it. So the argument would have been, well, stay another, you know, do to the end of your term. And then, you know, somebody else can come in. But Jenny, I the point at which you're doing a leadership election is not necessarily the point where the people who you want to step forward will do because it requires to lead us and particularly finding women outside of the white, middle class, non-disabled group of women who really dominate feminist discourse and women's representation in Westminster. In your statement yesterday, you referred to working in an aggressively male space and you said you've seen it up close and been burned by the heat of it. What have you seen? I have seen the outrage that men express when a woman dares to speak of her experience and demand that it be considered as a priority, that outrage is violent and scary

and it extends from social media into real life. And I think, I know I'm not the only female politician to talk about this. And I'm almost a bit wary about talking about it because, you know, then we get back to this idea that you have to be, you know, you have to have nerves of steel and you have to have a thick skin and you can only do this stuff if you're...

Like, I'm here, and I'm here speaking to the women who are listening to this to say, I am a very thin-skinned person. I bruise easily. You know, I think we need more people in politics who can feel, and we need to make more space in politics for people to learn and to be allowed to make mistakes, because there is too much insistence on having all of the answers for everything immediately, never being able to say, you know, I don't know. That's like a dirty word in politics. I want us to come back to an idea of a collective of voices.

And I think as a leader, it is absolutely incumbent on me to make space for different perspectives, to make space for black and Asian and ethnic minority women, for working class women, for disabled women, as a priority. And not just to say, oh, here you can have a bit of space, but to say, I need you to lead this next bit. And what can I do to help you do that? You're very sceptical then about Westminster politics.

You haven't won a seat despite fielding seven candidates in 2017. Surely you need to win seats and be there to effect change. Well, I mean, there's so much to answer to that. Well, first of all, we have been going as a party for about four years, right? The first election we did was 10 months after we opened for membership and I stood for a London mayor. And we ran a three-month campaign compared to everybody else's 18-month campaign.

And we won a quarter of a million votes. I won one in every 20 votes for London mayor. We had an immediate impact. We are putting candidates out at every election. I think the most recent local election, the best result we got was a 12% of the vote. We came second in Islington, Jeremy Corbyn's constituency. We are adding gains every time we run for election, the best result we got was a 12% of the vote. We came second in Islington, Jeremy Corbyn's constituency. We are adding gains every time we run for election and we are recruiting candidates now for 2019 local elections, 2020 London elections, and we're looking at the

PCC elections as well. So it is absolutely vital that we continue to do that work and we will. But what I'm saying here, Jenny, is that politics doesn't just happen in Westminster. There are women who are activists in communities up and down the country or who are holding those communities together frankly at a point when austerity has blown apart the public has blown apart the state

and public spending and we need to remember what politics is. We've spoken recently to Harriet Harman the mother of the house, who told us she senses the spirit of sisterhood in the commons. We heard Jess Phillips yesterday threatening any patriarchal paternal man objecting to proxy voting. But there is a problem with this women thing, that not all women think the same about politics and want different things. Well, I'm here. I'm a representative of feminism as a political ideology, right? I mean, I think

I'm leading the Women's Equality Party because I think that feminism is the only political ideology that actually creates true equality. I don't believe in a meritocracy. I don't believe you can have that where patriarchal systems are so entrenched. And I don't believe that socialism, which looks only at class, is the answer for women either. I think there are some utterly brilliant feminist politicians in Westminster, you've just named some of them there,

but they're sidelined by the leaders of their own parties. So I think there is a huge amount of work to do, both within Westminster, getting different voices and different perspectives in, and outside of Westminster, remembering that there is a huge amount to do at local level while Westminster is in paralysis. Who's going to replace you?

I'm hoping it's somebody who's listening right now. I'm hoping it's somebody who's listening right now. I'm hoping it's somebody who's thinking, gosh, you know, maybe I could have a go at this. I think it might be somebody who's maybe been shouting at the TV a bit more than often. It might be somebody who can't ignore that niggle inside anymore that says, you know what, I really want to do this. I'm hoping it will be a group of women. I'm hoping we can start to look at leadership models very, very differently. Sophie Walker, good luck for the future. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for being with us this morning. Now this Friday, a film which tells one of the most important and at the same time horrific stories will go on general release. It's

called Love, Sonia. And it's clearly been a of love for the director, Tabrez Noorani, the Indian producer of Slumdog Millionaire. It tells the story based on fact of a young Indian village girl whose sister is sold into a brothel in Mumbai. Sonia follows her there and is subjected to the most brutal treatment imaginable, including being shipped off to Hong Kong in a container with a group of other young women, then to America as part of the global sex trafficking trade. The film ends with the information that 4.5 million people are victims of sex trafficking. Frida Pinto, who also made her name in Slumdog, plays Rashmi, who Sonia meets in the Mumbai brothel.

Frida, this story is based, I suspect, on a number of true stories. But how common would it be for a poverty-stricken father in a village to sell his daughter as Sonia's sister is sold well not uncommon but also not um just because this film you know portrays that as our central story the beginning of um sonia's um well tragedy and how her life is completely overturned by the events in this film i wouldn't say that every poverty stricken father would subject his daughter to that. There are other things that could happen in a situation like that. A lot of times in a country like India, girls are not even valued, you know, so they're not even born. Before they're born, they're even killed because, you know, parents don't know how they're going to raise their kid and then collect the money for the dowry and then, you know, marry off the daughter. So there are different, I wouldn't say this is the only thing that happens.

It's not uncommon, but there are various different things that happen to young girls. Why were you keen to get involved in the film? Jane, I read the script right after Slumdog Millionaire. And Tabrez presented this script to me because he wanted my help to help him find, you know, a Sonia for this film. So he asked me if I'd read the various parts. And upon reading the script, I think the first thing that struck me was that it was possibly a very exaggerated brutality

for cinematic effect. And I wanted to ask him if this was at all true or if he had just made this up. And that began a very different journey for me. I was quickly informed of how little I knew in life and how words like sex trafficking and human trafficking for me and for many other people are just words, you know, that we don't fully understand what that world really entails. And when I read the various parts, I read Madhuri and Preeti and Rashmi. There was something electrifying about Rashmi.

What was it about her? It was very different from Latika. Sonia meets her in the brothel. She's been there for some time. She's very complicated, you know, like a lot of women in that world really are. It's not black or white. It's not moral or immoral or straight up labels as prostitute and whore. You know, there are damages. There's betrayal, which is the number one factor. I remember meeting one of the women who was going to inform

my emotional trajectory for this film, for this project. And I'd asked her if she had the opportunity where she fell in love with someone, if she would choose a different life for herself. And she told me that love only existed in my world and not in hers because in hers only betrayal did. And there is a constant betrayal from loved ones. There is no way of going back once girls are sold into the trade

because their families have completely rejected them. There's a shame and guilt that they are forced to carry that has nothing to do with any decision that they've made. Now, the brothel keeper is absolutely terrifying, constantly on the phone, trying to sell virgins to other parts of the world. He ruthlessly hands Sonia over to a man in return for a cigarette. How true to life is he? You know, Tabrez Noorani, our director, before he shot this film, he had almost 15 years of research into it. Part of the research was he was one of the people who also helped in rescue operations. You know, so he accompanied a bunch of activists and the police force and they went out rescuing girls. So a lot of these stories are actually true. It's an amalgamation of various stories to put into one character. Now, we see girls transported like objects in a container to Hong Kong and then to Los Angeles.

What evidence is there of that happening in a major way? Oh, that is also very true, which is why, you know, you're asking me all the questions I asked to Braith 10 years ago, because I couldn't believe it myself. Like I said, I thought it was a very exaggerated form. That is absolutely very true. And it's impossible for any of the cast members, or maybe people once they watch the film as well, to ever see a container in the same way again, because you'll always question what exactly is being carried in these containers. I remember when we screened the film for the first time in Los Angeles, that's where it really struck people in that country, in a place where they started questioning

how much is this happening under our noses, and we're completely oblivious and ignorant to what's actually happening around us. And in America, Sonia is sent elegantly dressed for a night to the home with a swimming pool of a very wealthy man. What's been made of the revelation that there are men and sold in this trade and they're the ones who carry the label of the the label of being immoral or um prostitutes and whores and sex workers but it's actually the men who are really the ones demanding and the end users you know so it's it's it's actually a trade that is uh perpetuated by men and the demand is also created by men. I've been told that in everyone's lifetime, including yours, we've all been at a party or at a bar or a hotel or a restaurant

or whatever it might be where we have been in a situation where there was a girl who was being actively trafficked in that very moment or a trafficked girl was servicing a client, and we've been there. Now, India has the highest number of sex-trafficked victims in the world. And when I was watching the film, I remember how other people have told me how difficult it was to make controversial issues in India in the film industry. Watching this one, I mean, it pulls absolutely no punches. And I wondered, what's been the response to this in India?

It's been a very mixed response. When the film came out last September, I think it was very difficult for the Indian audience to digest this as a fact, you know, a fact that actually this modern day slavery is rampant in this country and something that we've not talked about for a very, very long time. They called it a dark film. And my only response to that is, how do you make a dark matter light? You know, you can't. It is exactly what it is. The men found it extremely difficult to digest. But despite the film not doing particularly well in India, there have been a lot of young inspired women who've come forward and either confided in the cast members regarding an incident that happened with them, something that they faced, or the fact

that they want to come out and do something about it. How much is it being discussed openly in India? I mean, you know, you're living in America a lot of the time now, Me Too, Equal Page, Gender Equality, very high on the agenda. How high on the agenda are they at home for you? India is very much having its own MeToo movement. It's probably not as organized and as big as the movement in the U.S., but the world over the MeToo movement has hit home, including China. And so it is being discussed. However, there are patriarchal norms and there is a misogyny that is very deep-seated in the mindset

and so that needs to be tackled for an open conversation to actually take place. So what's on the agenda for you next? Something lighter perhaps? Oh I had Mowgli which for me was my little bit of moment of light, which Andy Serkis directed. But this is probably the first year after 11 years of, you know, picking very heavy hitting dramas and stories such as this. I've actually made a conscious decision to try and tell some lighter stories. I do have two love stories coming out, romantic dramas coming out in probably. Oh, actually, one of them ends up very tragically. So I don't even know if it's I don't know, Jenny.

I don't know if I feel like I have a very light attitude towards myself, which is why I gravitate towards the slightly more intense material. But I I intend to do something later this year. I really do. Well, Frida Pinto, good luck with it. And really, this is a most extraordinary film. Thank you very much indeed for being with us. Thank you. Now, still to come in today's programme,

the new law on abortion in the Republic of Ireland. As a case of refusal is raised in Parliament. How confident are doctors about making the right decisions? And the serial, the third episode, The Misunderstanding. Now don't forget, you can search for Women's Hour on BBC Sounds, and you can subscribe so you don't miss the next

episode. And that, of course, is where you find the podcast. You may have missed a discussion earlier this week about the launch of the new domestic violence bill, and and yesterday Lorraine Kelly on 35 years of broadcasting and of course you can always go to the Instagram account where we like to hear from you. Now there's a somewhat confused picture of Saudi Arabia and the women who live there at the moment. The driving ban has been lifted and it was announced recently that a woman could choose her own birth plan without the involvement of any man in her life.

She can also attend a football match without being accompanied by a male guardian. Then again, a young woman fled the country and her family recently, eventually finding asylum in Canada. Basma Khalifa was born in Saudi Arabia, raised in Northern Ireland and now lives and works in London. Along with a filmmaker, Jessica Kelly, she decided to visit her family to see what the country of her birth could offer her. Why did now seem like the right time?

I've always had, I guess, a case of thinking about my identity growing up in Northern Ireland and then moving to Scotland and then moving to London. I always sort of was trying to work out where I was from. And I'm Sudanese, my parents are Sudanese, so we'd go back to Sudan a lot. But I never went back to where I was born. And I sort of just started thinking, you know, why don't I go back to where it started? I hadn't wanted to go back for years.

And then with the changes, with the new crown prince, I thought, well, maybe maybe things would be a bit better so maybe it's the time to try it. So what did you plan to test out whether you could live there? I guess it was for me it was normal every day-to-day life I wanted to go to the gym I wanted to drive I wanted to go out with my friends I wanted to have a job I'm a stylist here and I wanted to see is there a fashion community there you know I just wanted to I wasn't going out there to sort of like investigate you know the deep roots of Saudi and its political landscape I really just wanted to see if I could be me really. And Jessica how concerned were you about being a female filming openly there because it is virtually unheard of? I think when you're there you're just kind of focusing on the job and looking down the lens and trying to not take too much notice

of what other people are thinking of you. But it's true that a lot, you know, when we're in public space, like a mall, people are really turning away from the camera to an extent that I've never seen before. How surprised were you, Basma, that you had what Jessica describes as fixers? Minders, really, weren't they? I mean, I'm sassy, so I, from the beginning, had an issue with it. I think, obviously, as two women and then to sort of have,

I think there was maybe five of them at one point, it was just quite a lot. You can't be indiscreet and be a fly on the wall if you've got two people filming and then you've got five other men following you and sort of tracking your every movement. It's an unnatural process. So I used to get quite, just quite irritated, I think. And I sort of tried to sort of bite my lip a little bit

and sort of also do what they asked. It's their land. They know what's happening there and they know the lay of the land. So I tried to sort of play to the rules while still, I guess, trying to sort of be me. Now, the death of the Saudi journalist Khashoggi had happened, I think, just before you left.

What did you make of that as you were about to go there? We actually, I don't know if I can speak on Jeff's behalf, but I didn't think of it as, you know, there was going to be a problem on the ground. Our only issue was, were we going to get a visa? Were they going to allow us to come at such a crucial time? But by the time we'd gotten to Saudi is when it sort of had blown up. It didn't quite blow up. It was in the process of blowing up when we were en route, you know, trying to get our visas. So maybe in their minds they were like, well, it's not really that big a deal, you know, it's just news.

But we were right up to the final nail, worried about getting that visa. But when we were there... Yeah, we still thought kind of arriving into the airport that maybe they'll suddenly realise it's a terrible idea to let a film crew in at this time. And then it's true that no one would talk about the Khashoggi case while we were there.

It wasn't something that people wanted to talk about at all. There were quite a lot of things that people didn't want you to talk about. What were the other things where people said, no, no, no, we don't want to talk about that? Oh, gosh, it was a range of things. But I think the landscape of the land in terms of the royals or in terms of the political climate, they just don't want to talk about it. The local people, I think there is a level of, you know, fear in a sense. Don't talk about things that

don't involve you. I think that was tricky for us just because we come from a place that's very much freedom of speech. Everyone says what they want. Everyone pulls each other apart in the political climate here. But they don't have that there. They're like, they do them, we do us. We don't communicate. Now, you did go to a party because your aunt, Spadma, allowed you to go. How surprised were you, Jessica, to find people were dancing and that there are posts on social media

where the strict rules are not being obeyed. I think it's kind of something that people do know exists in these sorts of quite closed societies that behind closed doors people actually do what they want if they have a certain level of protection from either money or class. So I wasn't totally surprised but to see it kind of when you transition from the street where you feel quite watched and like the boundaries are quite strict and you just cross the wall and suddenly everyone is dancing to house music and mixing, you know, men and women. Yeah, it was a surprise. And we were we were pleased to be able to capture that on camera.

As filmmakers and being there on the ground, we also wanted to be respectful. You know, there's a reason they get away with it because it's in private and it's in secret. And once you reveal people's secrets, then you inevitably take away their fun and you get them in trouble. You were cracked down on eventually. What exactly happened?

We had spent a lot of time with our fixers, minders, whatever you want to call them at the beginning of the documentary you will see that obviously I was irritated and so was Jess but slowly over time we began to understand each other and when you begin to understand people you sort of do let your guard a little bit down and sort of say oh well I get what you're saying or what you mean in that scenario with the car we just thought oh we're just going to stop in the car we're going to have a conversation oh why don't we find out what women fought for it, how they fought for it, what they did.

It was just a natural conversation that we thought, you know, in the UK we do have those conversations, it's not that big a deal. But you must have known that the ones who'd fought for it were actually in prison. I didn't, if I'm really honest, I didn't actually know. I knew they'd gotten in trouble, but I didn't know they were still in prison

until I'd sort of done more look into it. I didn't know the extent of how much they got in trouble. I knew they were in trouble, but not the extent. And I kind of also thought if they've been allowed to drive now, then surely this storyline has gone away. Surely they're over it. So being able to talk about it shouldn't really be a big deal, because in a sense, that's now history, the fight to getting what you want. But that's not the case for them I guess for them political conversations are very current and so when we talked about it it's sort of we we was just the two of us and one of the minders was collecting something from the car and he just overheard us and he I guess panicked a little bit and was a bit worried about what we were talking about and

yeah instead of having the conversation with us he was like I better just make sure that I don't get in trouble and they don't get in trouble. And then it escalated. How frightened were you when you realised actually you were in trouble, Jessica? We were frightened. And I think, yeah, there was a kind of nervousness that occupied our bodies for the next 24 hours. But at the same time, was a i think a shared um ambition between both of us to to capture this on camera so we did carry on filming like wherever it was possible but yeah it was quite touch and go for for 24 hours before we realized

what you know what our fate would be having experienced it for a much shorter time than you had intended to experience it because you had to leave yeah how likely are you to go and live there i don't think likely i think for me towards if i'm really honest towards the end of the week i was like okay getting in the rhythm of things this is not going so bad you know i drove and i'm gonna go do these things next week and we'd find like paddle and I'm going to go do these things next week. And we'd find like paddle boarding and private beaches and like all these things.

I was like quite, like we were getting into the realm of things. And I think after what had happened with the car scene, I was like, wait a minute. Like if I'm going to have to keep watching my back with everything, it's just so,

it felt so unnatural. And it's not something that I, I feel like I could do. I'm so, I realised coming back, even touching into Heathrow, how privileged we are to be able to say what we want and do what we want. I don't think you understand the privilege and the protection you have. You know, as soon as we felt in trouble, we felt a little bit scared, we were able to pick up the phone and say, hey, we need help. And you just have a team. You have people there right there and like we've got you and they don't have that there and that is the number

one priority actually over let's go on a day or let's go driving I think actually the freedom of speech and the freedom of the ability to make my own decisions is really important to me so not any time soon Basma Khalifa and Jessica Kelly and their film

The Real Saudi Where I Had To Leave will be available on BBC3 through the BBC iPlayer as of tomorrow. Now, it's nearly a year since the referendum in Ireland where 66.4% voted in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment, which was the law which restricted access to abortion. On January the 1st, the Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy Bill was enacted. It allows for abortion on demand up to the 12th week of pregnancy in the case of fatal fetal abnormality or where the physical or mental health of the woman is in danger. In the Irish Parliament, an MP, Bruce Coppinger, has raised the question of a woman who had contacted her about being refused a termination. Tonish, I want to raise with you what I believe is the first test case for the new abortion legislation. I've been contacted by a woman who has a fatal fetal abnormality that has been certified by two consultants.

And now it appears the board of the Coombe Hospital is refusing her constitutional right that we all voted for to have an abortion at a time she chooses. Instead, they have told her that she must wait another four weeks to see if there's a spontaneous miscarriage. Now, this is precisely the case that was brought to national attention that led to pressure and demands for repeal of the Eighth Amendment. At 13 weeks, this woman went for her 12-week scan.

They could clearly see at that point that the organs of the fetus were outside of the body. They brought her back a week later where that was fully confirmed when they got a better image. One doctor, her consultant, and then another consultant was brought in who said yes this is a fatal fetal abnormality but then a week later went to the board and the board have overruled that. Well I'd ask just the Count Corley's discretion on behalf of

this woman this is a very important case. Well, it's very important, but it's also without precedent that we would get involved in discussing a medical situation. This is about the law. Count Corley, if you don't mind. No, no, you're not describing the law. It's the second. You're describing a medical. in the capital city of this country is refusing this woman her constitutional rights when two doctors certify what is very clearly a fatal fetal abnormality.

And it would seem to me that it's because of the chilling effect of criminalisation that maternity hospitals are acting in this way. And don't forget the rotunda is only enforcing the law to 11 weeks, which the minister has written to them about. I'm asking you to get the minister to meet this woman today.

She should not have to pay to travel, which is what she's talking about doing if she doesn't have her constitutional rights affirmed. Her words to me were, this is not what I voted for. I have constitutional rights. Now, what are you, Tony, going to do about it today? Not next week, today. Britt Smith from the People Before Profit Party

and Ruth Coppinger, the Solidarity TD. Well, what might have caused the doctors in a leading Dublin hospital to refuse this woman's request for an abortion of her foetus? Earlier this morning, I spoke to Dr Peter Boylan, the clinical advisor to the Irish Health Service in relation to the new law on terminations. Ruth Coppinger described the case she raised in

Parliament as a test case. How would he describe it? Well, I can't talk about an individual case obviously, but I can just talk about the principles of what happened. The legislation allows for termination of pregnancy where there is a case of what's known as fatal fetal abnormality,

which is where the baby is likely to die either before birth or within 28 days of birth, according to the legislation in Ireland. So the way it works is that a scan is done, a diagnosis is made that the baby has a serious problem, and there's then a meeting of relevant specialists that might involve, for example, a geneticist, perhaps a neurosurgeon, pediatric neurosurgeon, and neonatal pediatricians. And there are some very serious conditions which are not fatal, and if they are not likely to be fatal within 28 days of birth then they don't fall within the ambit of the legislation recently enacted. But it seems from what Ruth Coppinger was saying that that diagnosis had been made and made clear.

How confused is the medical profession about what the new law on termination actually does state? Well, the legislation is very clear in that doctors have to make a decision made in good faith that a baby is likely to die within 28 days of delivery. Now, again, if a pregnancy is terminated very early on in pregnancy, say at 14 or 16 weeks, well, there is no chance whatsoever that any between the doctors and the woman herself and the couple a decision can be made but the legislation is clear. It only takes two obstetricians to make the decision

but good medical practice would dictate that a decision is made and a discussion is had with all of the relevant specialists. Now the board of the hospital has made it very clear to us that they were not at all involved in making this decision that obviously the legislation does depend on doctors making decisions in good faith but what kind of support are they getting in these very early days of this law being introduced? The doctors. Doctors are getting support from among themselves.

And it's the doctors who have written the clinical guidelines which guide medical practice. And the guidelines are dictated by the legislation obviously but the actual clinical guidelines would include that good medical practice would dictate that there is a multidisciplinary team meeting to make decisions and doctors are nervous I think because if a termination is done

in a condition which is not likely to be fatal within 28 days of delivery, then they may be subject to criminal sanction, which includes the possible jail term of up to 14 years. Now, the likelihood of that is pretty remote, obviously, but it still is something that doctors are fearful of. How anxious, then, are they about these risks whether they're GPs or consultants

specialising in this kind of thing? Well it's very straightforward for GPs because they are only involved in terminations up to nine weeks. Beyond nine weeks terminations are done in the hospitals and a woman can have a termination without giving any particular reason up to 12 weeks but those beyond nine weeks are done in the hospitals so the GPs are not involved in these sort of decisions at all. It's up to fetal medicine specialists basically and they will be concentrated in Dublin, Cork and Galway at the major tertiary centres. And how anxious do you reckon they are because the law is new? Well, there is a fair amount of anxiety, all right,

about the implementation of this particular aspect of it. And it will sort itself out with the passage of time as doctors become familiar. But I think a lot of women are probably going to be, and couples are probably going to be, disappointed and perhaps surprised when they discover that the condition that is very serious for their baby, and where they would much prefer that the baby be allowed to go in peace, that they don't qualify for termination under the current legislation. I was talking to Dr Peter Boyland and the board of Coombe Hospital told us that it has no role whatsoever in certifying a termination of pregnancy. It also said the doctor's opinion

is that although their unborn baby has been diagnosed with a complex foetal anomaly, we are not of the reasonable opinion formed in good faith that there is present a condition affecting the foetus that is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before or within 28 days of birth as per the Health Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy Act 2018. Now we had lots of tweets and emails from you on the Women's Equality Party and the interview with Sophie Walker. Vicky tweeted, we need more people in politics who can feel. I wholeheartedly

agree, Sophie Walker, Women's Equality Party. Thank you for your work and your thinking. Catherine tweeted, eloquent and articulate, I fully agree regarding the nerves of steel and the need for a collective, a change in leadership models and to be able to make mistakes and learn from them. Fergus emailed,

would it not be a great idea for all female MPs to show support for Theresa May, no matter what their politics, by joining her on the front benches just for 10 minutes. And on Saudi Arabia, Mummy Barrow tweeted, I did swap life in the UK for Saudi back in 1992, left the UK and went to live in Riyadh for six years.

I had an amazing time, but I'm not sure I'd do it now. Tomorrow, we'll be discussing the Scottish poet Robert Burns and his complicated relationship with women. And you can also hear the second in our series of family secrets. When Christine was a child, she was told never to talk to neighbours or answer any of their questions. And people outside the family were not allowed in the house. She never knew the reason why. But at the age of 74, she's just discovered a shocking secret. And she now has some answers.

We'll also be talking about the hashtag pelvic floor challenge. And we will be trying it out, won't we? See you tomorrow. Bye-bye. Hello, I'm Tez Ilias, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, Tez Talks. It'll make you laugh, cry, and even question the cultural choices you have historically made.

You can subscribe to Tez Talks on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.