Woman's Hour - Friendships with exes, Chef Pam, Economic abuse

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

Are friendships with exes a bad idea or a sign of growing up? Journalists Olivia Petter and comedian Rosie Wilby join Nuala McGovern to explore how relationships with ex-partners evolve after a breakup, and why staying in touch can look different in straight and LGBTQ+ communities.Global Leaders for Ending Gender-Based Violence (GBV) dedicated to preventing violence against women and girls have come together to form the All In Coalition. This new group is made up of global leaders and survivor advocates including Harriet Harman, the UK's Special Envoy for Women and Girls, and Tarana Burke, founder of the #MeToo movement. We hear from Dr Emma Fulu, who set this up, and Sima Samar, former Minister for Women's Affairs in Afghanistan.There is new data out today from the charity Surviving Economic Abuse which reveals that 27% of mothers (with children under the age of 18) have experienced economic abuse in the past year. We’ll hear more about this common yet often hidden form of abuse and control. Pichaya Soontornyanakij has been named as the world’s best female chef by a panel of more than a thousand food and restaurant experts. She’s the first Asian women to be awarded this title. Known as Chef Pam, she’s also a TV host and culinary judge in her native Thailand. She started out by converting her family home in Bangkok into a restaurant and since then she’s gone on to obtain a coveted Michelin star. And all by the age of 36.  Chef Pam joins us from the Thai capital.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, this is Neu La McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, almost 4 million children in the UK are suffering the impact of economic abuse in their families. This is according to new research by a charity. We're going to hear from one woman who has lived through it. The research found that perpetrators used various means, including stopping mothers, accessing bank accounts and child benefits, and also refusing to pay child maintenance. the abuse can become more pronounced over the Christmas period.

So we'll be talking about that. Also today, from Bangkok, we have Chef Pam. She is celebrating being named Best Female Chef, the first Asian woman to win that title. And she'll tell us about how she works to make her food unpredictable, unforgettable and provocative, no small task. Plus, friends with your ex, are you? Well, some research suggests that LGBT,

B, T, plus people are more likely to have a current friendship with an ex than heterosexual people. How does that sound to you? We'd like to hear your experiences, whether it was amicable or acrimonia, so you can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0300-100-444-4. But let us begin with All In. This is Global Leaders for Ending Gender-Based Violence.

They are dedicated to preventing violence against women and girls. It's a new group. It's made up of global leaders and survivor advocates. There's also policy makers. It includes Harriet Harmon. She's the UK Special Envoy for Women and Girls. Also, Tarana Burke, the founder of the Me Too movement. And this all comes as the UK government is preparing to publish a strategy

to deliver on its goals to have violence against women and girls. in the UK within a decade. We've spoken about that many times on this program. But here are some more figures. According to the World Health Organization and also UN women, they work for gender equality, more than 1 billion women and girls experience violence in their lifetimes

and 140 women and girls are killed every day as victims of domestic violence. It costs the global economy and estimated $1.5 trillion US dollars each year. These figures, they're hard to get your head around. Well, there is a 16-day campaign to raise awareness of the issues and the group is calling it a global turning point this particular moment. Let me speak to a couple of people that are involved.

First off, we have Dr. Emma Fulu. She runs the Equality Institute. She's dedicated to the prevention of violence against women and girls. We also have Seema Samar, a human rights activist and former minister for women's affairs in Afghanistan. Of course, things that have changed so drastically there. Welcome to both of you. Emma, why do you call this a global turning point? Well, I think it's really a time where in the past,

I think we've seen this problem as almost inevitable, intractable, but we're saying no, we actually have the evidence now. We know this is actually solvable. And if we go all and if we make the investment, and we all have a role to play in that, then we can actually end gender-based violence within our lifetimes. So what are some of the positive movements that you are seeing, that you think now is a time that things could actually change?

Well, I think we're kind of at a tipping point. You know, we actually have spent decades building the evidence base and we've seen programs have incredible impacts around the world, you know, reducing rates of violence by, say, 50% in a number of years. So we know that we can actually create change. But at the same time, we're in the middle of, you know, extreme backlash against women's rights, a rollback in funding, the climate crisis, conflict, etc.,

which is all increasing. the risk to women and girls. So this is really just seems like the most important time that if we don't make this fundamental change now, then really we're just going to things get progressively worse. I mentioned some of the people that are involved in the initiative. Tell me a little bit about what having a high-profile person involved. What difference does that make?

Well, I think, you know, what we've seen in the past is that even when we've had great evidence, even when we've had, you know, feminist movements and activists working on this issue, for decades. It hasn't always reached the highest levels of power and influence and decision making. It hasn't always received the investment that it deserved given the scale of this problem. And so we thought we needed a group of incredible, powerful leaders, voices, whether they're ex-presidents, Nobel laureates, sports stars, who can really, you know, call that all of us together and say we actually are all responsible for creating change. And so with their voices,

with their leadership, with their authority, we really think that we can get this to the sort of highest levels on the agenda that it needs to be. For example, what would you consider the most urgent because you do have a report full of recommendations? Yes. Look, we're trying to move away from a laundry list of recommendations

and think about what are some core catalytic things that we can actually do to create change. I think one area that we can, I think, all relate to is around changing the attitude and beliefs that underpin violence, whether that's victim blaming or thinking this is just normal. But how social media platforms, for example,

we really think they have an incredible role to play around ensuring the safety of all. And how would that concretely be put into action? I mean, we often talk about some of those aspects or like the online safety bill, for example. What is it that you want to see done urgently that you think would change a belief? I mean, we urgently want to see violent and misogynistic content removed from online.

It's clearly being taken up. We know from, you know, we've seen the incredible, I guess, impact of something like the TB series adolescents, just showing the impact that this has on young people. So we need that violent, harmful content to be removed. But also, I think we can work with young people to uplift positive and respectful messages because if what they see online changes the way, you know, we think what is normal in our societies, not just online, but offline as well. You also are working on prevention initiatives as you talk about there.

Could you tell us about something that you see is already working? Because I think there's always good to have hopeful examples. Yeah, we have so many great success stories. I mean, we've got, if we think about some work being done in East Africa, there's a community program called Sasa that has actually helped neighbours talk openly about respect and equality and they saw within just a few years,

violence against women dropped by nearly half. We've seen in other places where we've combined cash transfers with supporting equitable decision-making in the home, again, rates of violence going down by 50%. We've seen work in schools have incredible impacts, work with young children and play-based work. So there's so many examples.

that we can draw upon, and we think actually we need to be integrating gender-based violence prevention into all of these different types of sectors, whether it's health, education, transport, climate resilience, and that we can see that broad impact across our society. And it is always good to hear something hopeful, as I mentioned. But let me bring in Seema Samar, former Minister for Women's Affairs of Afghanistan. Seema, good to have you with us. I mean, you are coming from a country where I feel the headlines that we see all, seems to be regression for women's rights.

Tell me a little bit about how you're feeling this morning or what you feel can work in your region. Well, thank you very much for having me. I think, as Emma said, the issue of gender-based violence or reduction or elimination of gender-based violence is not a single action to be taken. I think it's a cross-cutting.

It should be on every level of the society. including the laws, including the school, curriculum, university curriculums, and promotion of human rights in every sector, putting the human dignity and women's rights as an agenda. And first of all, acknowledge that the violence against women is existing. It's not normal. It should not be tolerated by anyone. And then in different countries, we can have different mechanisms according to the need, on that country and promote the women's rights inequality in that country. We had some success stories in Afghanistan.

For example, the establishment of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and National Institution for Human Rights, we were able to change a lot of laws in the country and then promote the implementation of the law. I do believe that the law, making a good law and putting on the shelf, doesn't really help the reality and doesn't change the reality in the ground. But to promote implementation and promote accountability and justice will be helpful. Of course, including women in all sector of society.

Yes, and we talk about, you know, this huge group that has come together to try and shine a light. But I think when we think about the practicalities of living as an Afghan woman now, despite all the conversations that have taken place around those issues over the past four years more than four years now about four and a half

it can seem like an impossible situation I mean what about for Afghan women Seema well I think unfortunately it's four and a half year

that the women and the people of Afghanistan live under the Taliban regime and oppression of the Taliban which is exceptional unfortunately in the world

the only country which denies women access to education this is violence I mean you mentioned the number of the women who face violence and a number of women who are killed every day but I think beyond killing

if they are not allowed women and girl not to go to school and get education that is also violence if they are not allowed to work outside of the house and they are not allowed to express themselves, the freedom of expression, freedom of movement is taken from them.

That is also violence, and that exists in Afghanistan. And I think what is sad, first of all, for me as an Afghan, the silence of the men in the country, the majority of the men, because of the control, because of the political power, somehow they are,

or because of the brutality of the Taliban regime, they are silent. And also the international community, actually, do not acknowledge the failure that we all had together. Yeah, because that's what I'm trying to get at, SEMA, is that Manny would see this as a failure for Afghan society and in particular women and girls. And there has been so much conversation about it. And I just wonder when you have another global initiative

with policy makers, global leaders. Can you really affect change for those that are at the most marginalised, the most vulnerable? I think we try our best, and I personally try, and I don't have any choice to be quiet and keep silent. So we try our best to raise awareness and remind everyone of their failure

and remind everyone of their morality. of their responsibility, because I think the elimination of violence against women is not an individual or a specific country issue. It is a global issue and a global problem, and it should be solved through working together and take it as a global crisis in order to have impact and change the reality. Financing can come into this as well, getting away from Afghanistan because of course there's questions about actually funding the Taliban or where aid may or may not go.

But you are Emma calling for financing for this work. Who are you asking exactly? Who's paying their way and who is not? Well, I think we're asking for a real expansion of the funding pool and recognising that actually there's a lot more groups that need to be responsible for this. Obviously, governments are responsible.

Obviously, we need official. development assistance. But we think the private sector also has a significant role to play, obviously, alongside philanthropy. If we think about the billions of dollars that tech companies make, surely some of that should be invested in creating, you know, online safety. Has there been any response from tech companies in respect to this? Well, I think, you know, part of it, obviously there's always some level of resistance, but I think it's on all of us to demand regulation, whether that's through governments or our own demands as a community because this is fundamentally a public safety issue. It affects

all of us. And like we would with any other public safety issue, if this was affecting a billion people, we would all be stepping up and demanding action. So that's what we're calling for. Really interesting. Dr. Amafulu and Sima Samar, thank you both very much for joining us. And that gets underway today, the all-in group, and it is part of a 16-day campaign to raise awareness of a gender-based violence. 8444.844, if you would like to get in touch, many of you do want to get in touch, many of you are getting in touch, and that is because I was asking about exes. Here's a couple of comments.

You know, are you friends with them? Is there a difference between straight and LGBT plus communities? Good morning, Nula. My husband and I were laughing when we heard you doing a piece on ex-girlfriends as friends. This relates to our 36-year-old son, who has amazingly stayed best friends with all his old girlfriends, apart from one, their friend groups are the same and even two girlfriends do holidays and festivals together. I think it's about the friendships they form of the bigger circle that seems to hold and support them all. Here's another. In the LGBT community, being

on friendly terms with your ex isn't a choice. It's a necessity. The community is so small that realistically you're going to keep bumping into this person for the rest of your life, whatever they did to you. Fun, right? Question mark, perhaps a tongue in cheek. But also, if you are on friendly terms, it's likely they could be the way you end up meeting your next partner. Otherwise, it's like needles in a big straight haystack says Sarah

844. 844, if you would like to get in touch many of you are. Thank you. Keep your messages coming in. Right. I want to turn to Pichaya Sunturnianakit, who has been named the world's best female chef by a panel of more than a thousand

food and restaurant experts. She's the first Asian woman to be awarded this title. She's known as Chef Pam. She's a TV host, also a judge on some of the TV shows all about food in Thailand. She started out by converting her family home in Bangkok into a restaurant. Since then, she's gone on to obtain a coveted Michelin star, all by the age of 36. Chef Pam joins me now from Bangkok. Good morning. Good morning. Hello. Thank you for the introduction. Thank you. So good to have you with us. Congratulations, first off. How does it feel? Um, surreal. You know, every milestone is a dream come true for me and, you know, very thankful for all the opportunities. Yeah. Um, you know what I was thinking, Pam, when I was reading it. I was like, best female chef. Do we need a female category?

I mean, this is always been a topic since, you know, they give this award over 10 years already. I think at the end of the day, there should not be any, you know, male or female award or anything. But right now, I think there's still, you know, this award can still motivate and still give spotlight to female chefs around the world. This award for me also opened many opportunities for me, so I'm grateful for that. But, you know, as, you know, everyone's trying to make everything equal. I think that should not be anymore, maybe 10 or 20 years. Now I think it helps. So maybe you'll be back as best chef.

And it was by the organizers of the world's 50 best restaurants for those who want to know. Now, you say on your website, you want to be unpredictable, unforgettable, and provocative. How do you make food like that? Well, first of all, I have to explain that. Potong itself, the building is... This is your restaurant. Yes, the restaurant. in Bangkok, it's the location and how it looks is unexpected because Potong is situated in

Chinatown, which imagine this, Chinatown in Bangkok is very hectic, small roads. It's not a luxury area, but, you know, in the middle of that, there's Potong building and we're serving, you know, fine dining food. So that's the first. And I want to describe it a little bit more, actually, because I was quite taken with it when I looked Pam. It's this beautiful, multi-storied building in a traditional Chinese style. It was a medicine building belonging to your family. I think it's about 120 years old.

Yes, 120 years old. I mean, it must be magical to walk through those doors and go up those steps and, you know, have this experience with food in such a historic setting. Yeah, I mean, that's the first. kind of like surprise or unexpected moment when the guests, you know, kind of enter the restaurant because imagine, you know, you go into this elevator where you can fit only one or one and a half

person in elevator. I like one and a half people. And then you slowly go up and each floor you can see, you know, the service are working, people are working in the kitchen, you know, you can, it's kind of like travel back in time kind of feeling. So that's, that's, that's, that's what we want the guests to feel kind of like unexpected and surprise before even taste the food. Yeah, because you also talk about having the importance of memory in your dishes. And I mean, what a building. How many memories must that building be holding? More than I could explain to the guests. I mean, there's a lot of storytelling about this building, but we want to kind of like tell a little bit at a time,

throughout their meal. Yeah. And the food you talked about Thai Chinese, which is your background, how would you describe it? I mean, a lot of people know Thai food is like central, you know, central Thai food, like tom yum and all that, pat Thai.

But actually Thai food, we have like the northern style, the southern, the northeastern, which we call Isan. And then this Thai Chinese cuisine. So, you know, I was trained in. America, learning, you know, European food. But when I come back to Thailand, I want to cook something that belongs to my heritage, but do it progressively, a very modern way that people is unexpected. Because I feel like, you know, I want to create, I think memory is very important because, you know, you can find great food anywhere around the world. But how, if you think back,

How many can you remember that particular dish? I want to be that restaurant that the guest remember, you know. Is there a particular ingredient, flavor that evokes memory for you? For me, it's a dish called Radna, which is like a noodle dish, a Thai Chinese dish where my mom's cooked for me since I remember. It's a stir-fried noodles with pork gravy. baby and vegetables. It's very simple. But, you know, every time I smell it, every time I eat it, it reminds me of my dining table, a small dining table at home. And that's the best feeling.

Well, actually, without even meaning to, you bring me on to another thing I want to ask you about, which is your first restaurant that was called The Table. And you took over your family home? I did. So it happened, you know, accident. not accidentally, but happens because when I came back from New York, I want to open a restaurant. But then I don't have the money myself. So my parents kind of say, like, why don't you do something at their house? They have everything, you know, the kitchen, the tables and everything. And they're clever because they know they're going to get to eat well. Actually, the opposite. They don't get to eat. I mean, at first they are my first customers,

But, you know, as time go by, they started to have to sneak in at the back door because we have a real guest coming in. So, yeah. I even heard that they had to climb through a back window. Yes. I mean, it came to a point that, you know, a lot of bookings are in and we accept a lot of customers that we don't know them, you know, strangers, you know. And they don't want to meet any strangers in their home, so they have to kind of feel their own. own entrance at the back. Yeah.

So they are part of your success. But how proud they must be to see a Michelin Star and opening of the year award as well. And, you know, only four years after opening Patong, what does Patong mean actually, Pam? So Potong is the name of the pharmacy, which comes from a Chinese word, which means ordinary or simple. Yeah. So it used to be like ordinary pharmacy, you know, like pharmacy for everyone, something like that. But I don't think I would call your food simple. I obviously, sadly have not tasted it yet, but I was just looking at the photographs and it looks very intricate and like attention to detail of the utmost degree. So there's a bit of a paradox there.

Yes. I think paradox is something that we we love to have also because it's surprising. it's unpredictable I understand as well we talked a little bit at the top there about being a woman in a male dominated industry but you have set up a program to support women in education and also help them in the food industry what do you want to achieve?

I mean it's a very small program what I want to achieve is give opportunities to young women who wants to jump into this FNB kind of like industry because for I want to these young women they are very unfortunate

they live around like the rural areas of Thailand and talking about you know living in Bangkok for them is almost like impossible so what we do is we do a very small you know program that we raise money from

like fundraising dinners at Potong and we use that money to support for accommodation, for them to live in Bangkok near, actually near Potong, and for them to actually work in a restaurant and, you know, get paid work. So for them to really test themselves to give them the opportunity to try and to work in the kitchen. What was it like for you as a young woman in kitchens? I'm very competitive. I love sports since I remember, so I'm very competitive person, and I love the adrenaline.

I always strike for the best, you know, always time myself. Because when you start working in the kitchen, you do all the boring stuff, you do all the, you know, peat potatoes, you know, chopped shallots and all that. But for me, every day I time myself and then I have a goal. Next day, I have to be faster at least like one second. That is great. I watched the bear. I don't know whether you've watched that TV program

that's all set in a kitchen in Chicago. And they were doing timing. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, do people really do that? And now you're telling me, yes, that they do, like to get faster and faster. So you would love the bear, I think,

if you haven't seen that particular TV program yet. My husband love it, but for me, when I watch it, I get stressed so I don't watch. Listen, I'm not even a chef, and I get stressed watching it, but I totally. I totally understand that. But you mentioned your husband there who's also your business partner.

I mean, some might consider that a little bit stressful. For me, I mean, it can be, but I'm very fortunate because what I do and what he does is so different in every ways. Like I cook in the kitchen and he does everything else that the restaurant needs to be done. Like, you know, finance, budgeting and, you know, the operations. part. That's what he does. So we work together really well. I'm glad to hear it. I have to ask you one more question before I let you go. What do you eat when you come in from work late at night? Very bad food. Like anything that's in the fridge, sometimes I don't even heat it up, you know, something very simple because I... Like what? Like instant noodles or not so good. Or like

something we cook and freeze. Usually I like to cook something in large batches and then put in small boxes and just reheating things to be honest. So Chef Pam is just like the rest of us. Bit Shia.

Thank you so much for coming on. Congratulations again on your award and more strength to you. So interesting to see what happens with Patong and probably other ventures I would imagine in the not too distant to the future. That's Chef Pam speaking to us from Bangkok. Right.

Lots of getting in touch about exes. Hi, as a lesbian woman who has lived in three countries. It's true that lesbians tend to treat their exes like an extended family. It's like that cousin that you can't stand, but you will take you in for the night if you are homeless. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, I also want to tell you about a new BBC podcast that I'm presenting called Send in the Spotlight. It aims to reimagine support for special educational needs. That's a system that's widely considered to be broken.

Put simply, demand is outstripping supply. Too many children are being left without the support they need or having to go to school far away from home. And as the government embarks on an overhaul off the send system in England, I'm going to be speaking to families, teachers, experts and decision makers and asking how can every child learn and thrive? It will feature high-profile parents,

including Anna Maxwell Martin and Kelly Bright. You can expect straight talk, sharp insight, practical advice. It's called Send at the Spotlight. You can find it on BBC Sounds. And while you're there, why not subscribe so that you never miss an episode? If you want to get in touch, I know many of you, your interest has been piqued by hearing about it. 84844 is how to text us on social media.

It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. I'm really looking forward to getting stuck in to those conversations. probably about the 8th of December our first episode so we're gearing up for it now so I love to hear your thoughts on it as well in the run-up and speaking about the run-up

what about the run-up to Christmas? Well there's one charity that wants to highlight the 4 million children in the UK who are suffering because of economic abuse within the family at the charity, excuse me SEA found that over the past year 27% of mothers with children

under 18 had experienced behaviour considered to be economic abuse That is where a current or former partner has controlled the family's money. The Domestic Abuse Act of 2021 defines economic abuse as any behaviour that has a substantial adverse effect on an individual's ability to acquire, use or maintain money or other property or to obtain goods and services. So it can mean that individuals, often women, can have their access to everyday essentials controlled or restricted, things like mobile phones, transportation, food, clothing or even utilities. So to talk a little bit more about what can be a hidden form of control and abuse and also particularly how it affects children. I'm joined by Sarah Darcy, who is Head of Advocacy and Communications at the Charity,

SEA, surviving economic abuse. Good morning. Thank you for having me. We also have Louise. It's not her real name who has experienced this behaviour firsthand. He's also joining us. Good morning, Louise. Good morning.

Let me start with you, Sarah. So this survey was carried out by Ipsos on behalf of your church. charity. What do you want people to know particularly at this time of year? I think it's really important for everyone to understand that economic abuse doesn't just happen to adults. It also affects everybody in the household, including children. So our research has shown for the first time that nearly four million children have experienced economic abuse in the last year alone. And that includes a mother's abusive current or ex-partner controlling the family's money, but also the things it can buy.

So it can take different forms like restricting the mother's income, which then makes it really difficult for them to provide essentials for their children, but also includes other means like stealing pocket money, smashing toys, which directly impact the children's resources. As you mentioned, the toys, we're thinking of Christmas as well. Exactly. Because this is a period where it can be particularly acute. Well, I think domestic including economic abuse happens every day of the year.

But what we definitely see in our from survivors who contact us and also across the domestic abuse services sector is that lots of survivors try and keep the family together for Christmas because they want that day to be a magical moment for their kids. And then what we see in the new year is more survivors reaching out for help at that point when they basically want to take steps to freedom because Christmas has been too awful for them and their children and it's now time to take steps to safety.

Louise, thank you for joining us and also being ready to share your story. Tell me a little bit about what happened to you. Yeah, so I think it was, you know when the physical abuse is happening and the emotional abuse, but it took me going into a refuge for them to highlight the fact that I was also being economically abused. And for somebody who worked in the finance sector, it was quite an eye-opener for me to actually see it. my wage is always, I was the main wager, now, excuse me, and my wages would go into a joint account. They would then disappear straight away.

The more the family grew, I had to take on a second job to cover the costs of childcare because my wages wouldn't cover the bills, if not. So it was those sort of things that were sort of going on. And that I was just oblivious to. I think I was in fight mode sort of thing and surviving the other stuff. to realise the financial things were actually going on. But my understanding as well is that you did finally separate, but that you were still under his economic control.

Yeah, I think the thing is, I think everybody thinks when you flee that that's it and ties are cut and you live happily ever after. But unfortunately, the reality is that control can continue in so many different ways. So we were tied with a joint mortgage, which he would withhold mortgage payments, which obviously left me and the children in quite a dire situation. Then we had the battle with the Child Maintenance Service. I was involved in a car accident with the children not long after we separated,

and the children all were given compensation which was put into trust funds. He even tried to take that in the divorce because he wanted access to that money as well. So it's just the control. doesn't seem to end. Well, let's talk about your children. You know, when I was reading a little bit about your story, I think you thought they were oblivious the whole time that this was taking place when you were trying to shield them

from the restrictions that he was putting on you when it came to your money. But in fact, the kids knew, right? Yeah, it was weird. It was a conversation with one of my older children now. I mean, mine were all mainly adults now, so we can have these conversations. And I always just thought I'd protect the food bank visits. I'd kept to myself and things like that.

But they knew at the time, they knew what was happening. And it's a hard one to discuss, really, because you fight to make sure that they don't see those things. They're at school all day and things like that. But they were well aware of what was going on. so and for a child to not want to bring a tripleter home in case because they knew where's this money going to come from and things like that so it's only now that they understand the reality as to why that sort of thing has continued and he's even used he'll use the anything that he can dwp malicious claims with them the house was repossessed last year just anything he can really to even though he's not in the children's lives to try and have that control over us still and we would just never be free of it. I'll come to DWP in a moment, but there was quite a poignant image I thought, Louise, that, you know, your children knew you were in a cold home during the day in a way to try and...

Yeah, because obviously I couldn't afford to have the heating on while they were at school, so I'd sort of have it off all day just to make sure it was warm for, when they came home, but they knew it was happening. Obviously, they'd come home and I'd have several layers on and things like that. But it was just the reality. It was the only way to keep them safe.

And I know, according to the government's economic abuse toolkit, there are 25% of women who have suffered economic abuse. They continue to experience it after they've left the abuser. But there are a couple of issues. shoes there, Sarah, that Louise is bringing up as she tells us her story. We have spoken to the Department for Work and Pensions. They say they talk about the child maintenance service that they have collected or arranged nine billion pounds of vital payments for children. They say to improve the service, we're removing direct pay so we can better check parents are paying what they should

be and remove the requirement for those who have separated to interact, helping cut out cases of abuse and financial bullying. Let's delve into this. what are the issues we're seeing? Well, as Louise has really eloquently shared that abuse doesn't just end when you flee and what we see with the survivors that we work with and also in our research is that perpetrators often use a child maintenance service to control and cause economic harm post separation. How?

They're withholding child support. Because they have access to us, just to be really specific. Well, the CMS is ordering them to pay child support to contribute their children's upbringing but they are withholding it or they're paying unreliably we know from survivors that they're often not paying it around Christmas

and birthday times to cause maximum emotional harm and I think while we welcome the government's commitment to remove direct pay so it all moves on to collect and pay and to introduce a non-compliance fee we need them to bring that forward urgently children and survivors cannot wait

but they also need to go further and really develop training for their staff and also provide the resources to actually effectively enforce CMS payment. So with CMS Child Maintenance Service payments, direct pay, it should be going directly to somebody like Louise, for example. What is collect and pay? So collect and pay basically protects survivors because they then don't have to share their bank account details with the abuser, but it also enables the CMS to actually understand when that payment hasn't been made.

So it means that survivors like Louise aren't having to chase up every single time they don't get that payment, which causes emotional harm, but also just is such a drain on their time. So actually, if the CMS takes more responsibility, they can then take that enforcement action much more quickly. And that's why we're really calling for the government's violence against women and girls strategy to prioritise tackling economic abuse and really reform CMS so it works for survivors and their children. And with violence against women and girls,

the government is committed. I was mentioning earlier in the programme to having violence against women and girls in a decade. They say it requires a transformational approach to how they respond to it across every part of government and they say it's essential

that they take the time to get it right and ensure the strategy is transformational, excuse me, and deliverable. so we do wait to see what that statement will be. It's kind of interesting. It touches a number of issues that we're talking about this morning. But I'm wondering, coming back to you, Louise, I mean, what would happen if you were able to access money,

spend it on yourself, you know, something that it sounds like he would very much be angry about or push back against in those instances? it was very rare that I ever did to be honest but I mean there was one instance I saved all year to get myself a state-of-the-art laptop sort of thing that I wrapped up from the children for Christmas put it under the Christmas tree Christmas Day once all the festivities had been over with and the children were worn out and in bed to set it up and because I was connecting with work colleague school friends things like that the jealousy

kicked in and he smashed the entire house up, smashed children's toys. And it was only, I mean, the very next morning, I had to return that laptop, get my money back for it, which then went back to him, and had to explain to the children why the toys had broken or had been taken away and things like that. So it was very rare that I was able to sort of spend money on myself, especially if it would give me any form of freedoms to have some sort of normal life to be able to keep in touch with people and things like that. So if I may, to explain a little bit more with the Child Maintenance Service, for many years he would always stop payments Easter, six weeks, holidays, Christmas,

because when we needed it the most. And for me, the importance of going back to collect and pay, he's always in control of those payments. So on direct pay, I'm waiting. for that money to be credited into the bank each week. And there's no regularity to it. He won't set up a direct debit. So it's timed.

It's as and when he is ready for us to have that money. He will pay it. Whereas collect and pay, where they pass it on, it's in the bank when you wake up on a Friday morning and that's it. And it takes that control away. Yeah, so interesting. Sarah, if someone listening, perhaps someone they know, or maybe they recognise it in their own life, where should they turn to?

Well, I'd say if you are worried about, you know, somebody that you know or even yourself and your own relationship, do go to our website. We've got lots of information and resources on economic abuse and how to take steps to safety. So just search surviving economic abuse or go to surviving economic abuse. You can also contact the National Domestic Abuse Helpline. That's a 24-hour free phone service. and we also partner with Money Advice Plus

who run the financial support line which offers specialist support for those who are in financial difficulty and might be experiencing debt that they need help and advice with. So there's lots of options so it's just important to know you're not alone and there is help out there.

Sarah Darcy from the charity SEA surviving economic abuse. Also, Louise, not a real name, but thank you very much for sharing your story as well. I think just for people to hear the experience have been living through it will definitely bring clarity. If you have been affected by anything you've heard in today's discussion, of course Sarah has given you some

thoughts there on where to turn for help, but you can also find resources via the BBC Action Line as well. Now, I want to know, are you a night owl? Do you work at night time? For our Boxing Day programme, we want to hear from you about your experience. experiences of working or living at night. Does your job involve most of the time being in the dark, in the winter months, for example, or maybe you love the night? Tell us about your experiences.

The usual ways to get in touch, 84844, texts at the standard message rate, and on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or indeed, you can email us through our websites. Now, I want to move on to something that many of you have been. in touch with me about this morning already. It's about exes. So a couple of weeks ago on Women's Hour, we heard about the life of poet and activist, Andrew Gibson. Andrew's wife, Megan Falley, talked about how at the end of Andrea's life,

they were surrounded by many of Andrew's ex-girlfriends. And that chimes, actually, with research carried out a number of years ago that found that LGBT plus people are more likely to have a current friendship with an ex than heterosexual people. Well, joining me to discuss the relationships with exes

are the journalist and author Olivia Petter, whose book is Millennial Love and explores the contemporary dating landscape. Good morning. Good morning. And we have the comedian and author of the breakup monologues. Rosie Willby. Good morning, Rosie. Hello. I want to play for people who missed

it, just a little clip off that interview that we had on Women's Hour with Megan Fally. A lot of Andrea's friends also happen to be their ex-girlfriend spanning about 30 years. And even when Andrea died, there were four ex-girlfriends there in the room with us. And in the queer community, Andrea's therapist has said that so many of us lose so much family that when we find people we call family, we'll do anything not to let them go.

So that was a little there of Megan Fally talking about her late partner, the poet, and activist Andrea Gibson. Well, let me perhaps, that was Friday the 21st of November, actually, if you'd like to listen to the whole interview. It's a very beautiful interview. Let me start perhaps with you, Olivia. Do you stay in touch with your exes? I'm definitely on good terms with some of them and friendly with some of them. But I don't think I would say I have close friendships with anyone I've dated necessarily.

And neither do any of my heterosexual friends, really. It's quite rare, I think, for the straight people I know. to be close friends with people they've dated, particularly if it's been a longer-term relationship. And I think there are all sorts of reasons for that. And I also think it's a real shame, by the way. I think there is so much that we can learn from being friends with people we've been in love with

if we can find positive elements to that relationship and turn it into a loving friendship. But I think it's really difficult. I think there are all sorts of very rigid codes and, you know, sort of models that heterosexual people tend to stick to when it comes to relationships. And I think part of that is this idea that, you know, when a relationship is over, sort of put it in a box, lock it up, throw away the key and move on.

And I think it can be quite challenging to subvert that narrative in a lot of ways to our detriment. Rosie, your experience? Completely and utterly different to that. I've often joked that at a lesbian wedding, the bride should not be given away by her father, but in fact a procession of all of her exes. What a lovely idea. Exactly. Because as Megan quite rightly said, that is your family. And it's long been understood in marginalised communities

that you have to put in the work to stay friends because otherwise you risk eroding a whole landscape of interconnected mutual friendships. You risk being isolated from your community, from your tribe. Friendship after a relationship is a survival instinct that is hardwired into any gay or queer person's brain, it is absolutely essential. And the psychological work that it takes to get to that point

to distill your romantic and sexual feelings into friendship allows you to see one another's pain. And in witnessing that, you allow space for one another's joy. And I would say that one of the people I feel my most authentic and safe with is my ex-donner, who I separated from 25, years ago. And we don't see each other all the time, but whenever I do, it's as if no time has passed. But, you know, I'm drawn to the word when you talk about distilling those feelings. Because I'm sure, you know, jealousy is a thing, right? No matter what your sexual

orientation is. And I can kind of understand what I'm hearing from some of our listeners and from you, Rosie, that it's necessary in a way for your ecosystem that you're going through. But is it a conscious effort or is it what you see around you? It's hard work. But I loved Sarah's comments earlier, you know, that you're going to bump into that person on the bus. And you do. I mean, all lesbians in London used to get on the 73 bus for some reason. Hang on.

This is already an episode of Women's Hour, the 73 bus. Everyone was going to state Newington. That's where all the lesbians lived in the 1990s. So you did always bump into each other. You went to the same bars because, you know, society was sick. You had to for your own safety. So there's a very serious reason behind I'm sort of making jokes about it

because that's sort of what you do when you've experienced trauma and bullying and abuse and violence all of your life. You have to make jokes and you have to form those friendships and those bonds because those people are your family. Donna feels like a sister to me because it's kind of the closest thing I've got really.

I don't have a large biological family. So I just think it's so important. you have to just get over the jealousy. And I think, as Olivia says, heterosexual, heteronormative people have had to live by such a strict set of codes. And there's a completely different code of conduct that the queer community is devised in the margins. However, I'm scared that we may be losing that as we sort of start to get married and have more heteronormative models that we follow because that seemed very aspirational for queer people, didn't it? to sort of be equal and be the same as straight people. But I see perhaps some people now taking on these more heteronimative codes

of blocking one another, which just feels so alien to me. And I was blocked by somebody and I did not respond well. I probably responded very, very poorly because it was just not sort of in this code that I had been passed down by the lesbians that I had always adored so much. And I treated it as this sacred way that humans beings must behave. But obviously, I'm not the spokesperson for all lesbians. I know that some women will want to behave in a different way. I mean, obviously, I'm being the spokesperson for lesbians right now.

But we're all different, even though I think as a general rule, this is what I've seen going on. Interesting. Do you think, and I want to come back to you, Olivia, and do you think it's generational? Well, no, I don't necessarily think that. I hope not because I see so much hope and invention and creativity and wonder in the young queer women who are experimenting in all kinds of wonderful and exciting ways, sort of maybe rejecting monogamy or thinking about relationships in new ways, thinking about family and friendships in new ways.

There's just perhaps a slightly different code and a slightly different set of terms and language that they might use. I wonder, I'll read a few comments that are coming here from straight people, whether those that are getting in touch with me today are more likely to remain friends with their ex. Olivia, let's read a few. Losing an ex often means losing a best friend. I've never got past losing the friendship I had with my first boyfriend.

We did so much growing up together, so much putting the world to rights. It feels so sad that we couldn't salvage a friendship, excuse me. And I often think about how his life may have turned out. So that is one that has let it go. But here's another, not LGBT, but I am still friends with my ex-boyfriend. I think mainly because we were friends before we started dating. And that's the more important aspect that survived. Thankfully, my current boyfriend gets on well with him too.

another. My husband is still in touch with his college girlfriend. She's a wonderful person and godmother to our son and cool aunt to our daughters. But perhaps those last two not the normal of you. Yeah, I think the thing that we need to remember here is that as women, we are conditioned to see our male partner's exes as threats and we are conditioned to pit ourselves against them in so many ways. And I think that is something that's really important to point out here because in order to have a healthy relationship with an ex, It means that, you know, your current partners also need to be accepting of that. And I think it requires quite a lot of unlearning of internalized misogyny that has told us that we have to see a partner's exes as in competition with us. And, you know, we project all of our deepest insecurities onto them. The amount of times myself and my single friends have spent hours trawling through, you know, social media. We need to come to social media because exes is a whole different world now when you can actually see what they're up to instead of waiting to hear.

something from the person down in the pub who saw them the week previously. Yeah, it makes it really difficult. And, you know, there are so many different nuances within it because, yes, you could block a partner, but you could also still follow them and then mute them. But, you know, it's very important that you're visibly seen to be following them still. There's all these different things.

You could hide your stories. You could restrict them. I mean, it's completely insane that we have this kind of plethora of options to deal with with this. But I think it all makes it very difficult. And I think another idea that this kind of leans into is this, archaic notion that men and women cannot be friends if they

are both. Going back to when Harry met Sally I mean. Or when Sally met Sally. Good point. It's a too shay. Here's another one coming in. You're not the spokesperson for all lesbians you say, but we have lots of spokes women coming on to give their points of view. Clara in London

my ex and I, women, are the best of friends now. We had a relationship for a couple of years and it took time to move to friendship. Help somewhat by her moving abroad for a while. We support each other laugh a lot, cook for each other and have lived in the same area road for some time. She also helped me buy my first home in my mid-50s, which was incredible. We're family now.

We feel very lucky. But what Clara is saying there, I think, could relate to hetero or homosexual relationships. I think sometimes when you need a little break. Little break when the relation stops. And then you can be friends again. Might be speaking from personal experience. what about that you're both nodding your heads I think absolutely

I think if you're going to be friends with an ex having you know regardless of your sexuality it's important to have a little reset and to kind of take some space away to reflect on the relationship how it ended and obviously look there are some exes that you shouldn't and can't be friends with but in the cases where the relationship ended amicably

and there is very much a space for you to turn that into something positive and into a friendship moving forward then yes you absolutely should do that but I do think it requires a little bit of breathing room initially. Because Rosie, what we could be thinking is like that particularly the lesbian community, are they all friends, it breaks up, no problem, let's go down and hang out together. But there must be a little bit of space. Yes. I mean, Donna and I went through some terrible times because it was also

at the same time that my mother had just passed away. And also we had a house fire where we lost all our stuff. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. Horribly dramatic time just in our late 20s when we were not quite grown up enough yet to really deal with it all. And I think that's why we needed to stay friends and process all of that stuff together. However, yeah, we did get to a point where we had to have about a month off of contact. But I don't think we even managed that. You know, we maybe had about three weeks. That was probably about all we managed because we just had this close bond and this close connection.

And we kind of needed each other. Obviously, the flip side of all this is that you can have muddy boundaries. I certainly know women in the past. That's another book there, Rosie. Muddy boundaries. Well, I know women who slept with each other just to fast forward to the bit where you do get to be friends because it's so difficult to initiate friendships that sometimes a fling was a better way to do it. So there was a different approach to boundaries than the sort of more heteronormative community have now.

And I think communicating about that, particularly now more heteronormative women or coming to slightly more. more fluid identities later in life, we need to communicate better about it all and not have these difficult sort of culture clashes, if you like, because I know I come from a completely different ethos to you. And I'm sure you would not be interested in no lesser like me. But if we had a fling, we probably wouldn't know what on earth each other was talking about.

You know what I mean? So interesting. I do want to, Olivia Petter, Rosie Willby, thank you very much. If you have enjoyed this discussion, I do want to let you know that on Friday, We'll be talking more about staying in touch with your ex. We're going to speak to Sophie Crawford about her novel, My Ex-Girlfriend's Wedding, described as a queer rom-com.

Also, here's another lot about houses. Keeping my ex-husband as an integral part of my twin daughter's lives was more important than what happened between us. I even found him a house to buy in our town 180 miles away from where he was living. So a house was back in the same street with us, and we put all the effort in to do the same things as a normal family. family holidays, Christmas, et cetera, with the celebrations together. Thanks for all your messages, 844.

I am back with you again tomorrow. I hope you'll join me then. We'll talk about endometriosis, among other things. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Political language can seem archaic. It's like the light from one of those stars that actually died. Sometimes bamboozling.

It's a theme park with a five-foot log flume from one thought to another. And very often beyond words. I don't mean how to describe the language. use. I'm Amanda Unucci. I'm all reset and turbocharged to stress, test to destruction, used and abused buzzwords and phrases from the world of politics. I come with a dazzling array of guest presenters and I'll be exploring the verbal tricks of the political trade, the intentions behind them and the effect they have on all of us. The new series of Strong Message Here with me, Amanda Unucci from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Science.