Woman's Hour - 'Frock up Friday', Sexual harassment in Parliament, Young Conservative women, Fan Girls, Exercising outside

Episode Date: September 2, 2022

New sexual misconduct allegations have been made about a cabinet minister and a top Number 10 aide who serve at the heart of Boris Johnson's government according to a Sky News investigation. They've published testimony from two women who give detailed, first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures who are both now in senior roles. Liz Bates is the political correspondent at Sky News and presenter of the Open Secret Podcast.The race to be the next Prime Minister comes to an end of Monday, when either Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak will enter Number 10. Ella Robertson McKay has recently interviewed both candidates as the National Chair of the Conservative Young Women group – which represents female party members under the age of 35. Ella joins Anita to discuss what each candidate is offering to young women and what Ella’s members think the winner should prioritise. At the start of lockdown in spring 2020 two friends living in Hastings set up a Facebook group for friends to experience the excitement of dressing up on a Friday and getting read to go out when everybody was forced to stay at home. The “Frock up Friday” movement was born and within three weeks the group had 10,0000 members worldwide and now two years later, they number 15,000 and are still growing. The friends who founded the group call themselves the “Mother Frockers” – Beverli Francis and Suzie Simms – and they’ll be joining Anita Rani this morning to talk about their picture book which details many of the fabulous outfits members share, their festival this weekend for online friends to finally meet up in person, as well as their plans for the future.In July the healthcare charity Nuffield Health published data which showed that 47% of women had done no vigorous exercise in the past year. It was quickly pointed out that there might be lots of reasons for this - lack of time and money for example but there are other factors too. Every Body Outdoors is a group of women who are determined to fight for clothing and kit which fits them and they want to see larger and plus-sized people out and doing exercise, Charlotte Petts joins 5 of the group in the Brecon Beacons as they walk and talk about their campaign and their experiences. In the third and final part of our Woman’s Hour series on Fangirls we ask: Is there a darker side to being a fangirl? We speak to freelance writer Jessica LucasPresenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Liz Bates Interviewed Guest: Ella Robertson Mckay Interviewed Guest: Beverli Francis Interviewed Guest: Suzie Simms Reporter: Charlotte Petts Interviewed Guest: Jessica Lucas

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It is good to be back after a couple of weeks off, but it did feel a bit different this morning, waking up in the dark. The days are getting shorter, kids are back to school, temperatures are beginning to drop. But I want to try and cheer you up a bit today because today is Frock Up Friday. It was set up by two friends during lockdown. The idea caught on and they're now about to celebrate their very first in real life festival. We'll be talking to them a little bit later. It's basically a simple idea that works a treat. And the best bit, it's absolutely free.

So I'm inviting you all to join in today. All you have to do, go to your wardrobe and put on something that makes you feel good. The ball gown that you've never worn. The fancy dress outfit you wore once. Your loudest trousers you've never been brave enough to put on. Today, I'm encouraging you to go for it. Wear those clothes and send us a picture. You can text the programme.

It's 84844. Your text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can even send us a WhatsApp message. You've probably already saved this number into your phone as Woman's Hour. It's 037 700 100 444.

Thank you very much, Sian Notley, who's already tweeted us a picture of her in a very lovely lemon dress. Not lemon yellow. It's a dress covered in lemons. I'm currently wearing a jumpsuit that makes me so happy. It was made by my very talented friend, Celia. Celia gets a shout out. She found an old 80s pattern in a charity shop and decided to cut up an old bed sheet. So, yes, I am wearing an old bed sheet to work and I feel great about it. Frock Up Friday. Join us.

Apart from playing dress up, we're also looking into why 47% of women haven't exercised in the last year. What's stopping us from getting sweaty? We visit part three of our series about fangirls this time we think about whether there's a dark side to fandom maybe you can tell me have you been a fan who might have taken it too far who were you into and what did you do and we hear from the national chair of the conservative young women group ella robertson mKay, interviewed both leadership candidates yesterday and she will tell us everything. But first, new sexual misconduct allegations have been made about a cabinet minister

and a top number 10 aide who serve at the heart of Boris Johnson's government, according to a Sky News investigation. They've published testimony from two women who give detailed first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures who are both now in senior roles. Well, Liz Bates is the political correspondent at Sky News and presenter of the Open Secret

podcast and joins us now to tell us more. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Liz. Your investigations come in the wake of the Chris Pincher scandal. He was the deputy chief whip who resigned after sexual misconduct allegations and questions were raised over what the prime minister already knew about his behaviour. So what made you go back to Westminster to dig deeper? Well, I mean, Chris Pincher was one of those things, but we'd actually started looking into this issue again before that.

And that's really, I think, because there were a series of scandals that were still coming out in the newspapers. But working in Westminster for a long time, what you also know is that there are a lot of things that don't come out. And so we felt that even though this has been reported on many times before, this was an issue that we needed to revisit again. And, of course uh allegations of this nature against people in senior positions always get a lot of attention but what we also

found was that there was still a problem and this has been a long time uh problem in westminster of kind of low level inappropriate behavior that goes unchecked people feeling that because of the position that they're in they can get away with anything they want to. And also the people on the end of it still feeling that if they come forward, even though there are lots of systems in place and they have been improved, but people still feeling that if they come forward, they'll be seen as somebody who is disloyal to their political party and the cost will all fall on them. So that's really what our investigation found. And we just felt that it was time to look at it again. So remind us about the reporting of Pinscher and what was still being said about the,

well it's the name of your podcast, the so-called open secret of these types of stories. That's why we called it the open secret, it felt really apt and one of the things that happens in Westminster and this happened with Chris Pinscher, is that a story comes out about somebody and then what you find is that it often, sometimes maybe, maybe not often, but it can unearth then other allegations that have been known about at various levels. And what you also get as a journalist in Westminster is people texting you saying saying oh yeah i knew about him oh i'd you know i had a nickname for him it was known by his colleagues he it was uh you know people had warned me not to go near him if he was too drunk you know that type of thing and that's why

we wanted to address that aspect of it these rumors and gossip that goes around it's and about certain people and about certain incidents and yet they never get escalated and I think that's why we always talk about culture here, it's a culture problem and how do we deal with that. Now one of the women you spoke to was Emily, it's not her real name or voice in this clip but she says she was sexually assaulted by an MP who's since been made a cabinet minister. Let's have her hear about what she had to say. I was sexually assaulted by an MP who's since been made a cabinet minister. Let's have her hear about what she had to say. I was sexually assaulted by someone who's now a cabinet minister. And I was in my early 20s and didn't really know how to deal with it.

I was super drunk. He's feeding me more wine and I'm already quite obviously tanked. And I didn't know how like what the time lapse was but after a while I was like you know what would you mind if I just went to bed so I went to bed but obviously he didn't leave me alone and then I woke up the next morning and I realised what had happened. I was clearly quite uncomfortable. And this is corroborated by the fact that I was so shocked by it, what had happened. I told my housemate as soon as I got home.

And my housemate told me that if it were him he wouldn't tell anyone what had happened and so I just went home and went to bed for the rest of the day. I called a couple of friends a few days later but didn't pursue anything about it immediately and was just like holy shit this happened. I reported it to an MP I worked for a couple of years later. And I did go to the police years later as well, and had a very brief chat with them and decided not to proceed with a formal complaint because they couldn't give me any reassurances until I made a formal statement. I was too scared to kickstart that process and risk it spiralling out of control.

So that was, I mean, not real name, Emily, and voiced by an actor. I mean, it's quite shocking to hear that, Liz. I mean, she didn't feel that she could report it. In fact, she was told by her housemate not to. She didn't. And that's one of the issues that we try to address, which is, why is it that these things can happen? And then the feeling, especially among young staff members, is that if they come forward, it will be them that experiences a backlash. And that was one of the things that we really tried to get at but I have to say I mean even it was months and months ago that I first heard that story and I've heard uh you know we we had discussions about how much of that uh we wanted to put out into the public domain based on how how comfortable she felt with it but I've

heard more details about that uh from you know the run-up to it and the aftermath and um it still uh kind of fills me with horror I have to say every time I hear it the idea that young people are coming into a place like parliament where standards of behavior should be high where they should be respected and protected you know as a young woman myself it kind of gives me chills to know that things like that are still happening. I'm sure lots of our listeners will be feeling chills listening to it as well and we also spoke to somebody called Polly. Let's have a listen to this clip. I was working a conservative event at an evening reception. I was with a number of colleagues in this room. It was pretty like crowded, sweaty, full of men. And basically I felt someone grab my ass and I turned around and this guy was just like

looking right at me. And I was like, you just touched me. And he was like, no, I didn't. And I was like, yes, you did. I just felt you do it. And you're looking right at me. Like basically I kicked off and I told him to leave me alone. Like basically got mouthy. I decided to formally complain.

Partly because I was like, okay, this is not the most egregious or traumatising. But like, how is it that these people just feel they can behave however they want and just be protected by an industry that seems to not particularly care? I complained to CCHQ. I outlined what I thought should happen next, which basically was he shouldn't be working for political campaigns if he was behaving like that. He should take responsibility and this should be logged in case it happens again. So for any other women that come across this guy, there should be a record. I was told that the guy who hired him said, oh he's a good looking man, he wouldn't do that. He has women throwing themselves at him. He said that to a few people and then basically went mad trying to kill the story and defend him. I know that all parties have got their really bad examples of this,

but the Conservative Party have a very special ability to try and protect and uphold power. I mean, I'm shaking my head listening to it. I mean, she's having to rationalise it in herself, isn't she? She said, well, OK, I'm not that traumatised by it. But she shouldn't have to do that. I mean, what processes are in place in Parliament to deal with these types of behaviours? Well, there are lots of processes in place.

And I think it's first of all, we should say that we had a government spokesman and a Conservative Party spokesman respond to us about these things. The government did say that they take these allegations very seriously. There are robust procedures on this case as well. They said that government employees are subject to necessary checks and vetting. Conservative Party said that there is an established code of conduct. And all of this stuff is true. The House of Commons also has an independent complaints and grievance scheme that was set up in 2018 to deal with these types of issues. That was in the wake of the last scandal. But look, I think, and this is something that we've come across in politics

before you can put every system in place that you want but it relies on the people in positions of power to have integrity to care about standards in public life and to impose that if they see other people around them falling below those standards you know systems on their own do not work it's the people at the heart of government that need to make them work and I think there's still a long way to go with that. Yeah I think it's really interesting that you know they found it easier and this is actually you know in the wake of Chris Pyncher's story to come to you and speak to you know a media outlet anonymously than it was to go and report it? Honestly, you know, as a journalist, the situation that I would like to be in, in 10 years' time,

is that there are no stories like this, that no one ever comes to me with a story of this nature, misconduct or bullying, not because it never happens, but because they feel empowered if it does happen, that they can actually get it dealt with and there are systems in place to do that. You never want to hear these types of stories. And the people that come forward, you know, they think about it a lot.

It's not easy to say something really personal like this in public. And so nobody takes it lightly. And I think we really have to ask ourselves what is going wrong when people feel like their last resort is to speak to a journalist? You know, I personally like journalists, but, you know, a lot of people, it's not a good position to be in when you feel like the only way that you can get some sense of justice and resolution when something like this happens to you is to go to a journalist. It just shouldn't be like that. It makes you wonder what, you know, the context of all of this, what's accepted behaviour within Westminster? Absolutely. And I think that's very much what we're looking at. Is there a specific problem in Westminster? I think this type of behaviour does go on in all types of organisations

to various levels. But of course, we do expect people in power to adhere to higher standards, partly because they are legislators. They're there in many respects to impose these rules and to protect other people. So that's why we expect this from them. I do think Westminster has a specific type of culture because of the type of people that often are attracted into politics. There's a lot of great, great people working in politics. I have to say that. And I've met many of them over the years and they do great work

and they have impeccable standards of behaviour. But there are other people that are attracted into it because it gives them a sense of power. There's also being away from home in London. People are away from their families. There is, and this is not the root of it, but it certainly doesn't help, a drinking culture. There's a culture where professional and personal lives are kind of blurred together and colleagues or friends and very senior people are mixing with very young people who look up to them so um we've looked into this many times before but i think there's still more to do on it

yeah and there are a lot more women mps now um all-time high 225 female mps in the house of commons that's 35 has that made much of a difference to how comfortable women feel about reporting these types of incidences i think think there's no question that it has, absolutely. And in terms of driving change on this, it has often been women that are at the forefront of doing that. But I think, like in any institution, these things take a long time, and I think there's still a way to go.

And, of course, it isn't just women who are impacted by this. It isn't just women. And that is something that we have started to talk about a bit more. But there's a lot of young men in Westminster and they do seem more reluctant to speak. But we have spoken to some of them as well who have experienced this type of behaviour. Look, what's really at the heart of this is power and people in power feeling that their behaviour doesn't have to adhere to the standards that other people's does. And basically, they can do what they want and get away with it. And it's not acceptable here or anywhere else. Liz Bates, thank you very much for speaking to us about that. We have heard House of Commons spokespersons say to us that bullying, harassment and sexual harassment have absolutely no place in Parliament. Parliament's independent that there is still work to be done to ensure that everyone is treated with the respect and

dignity they deserve. 8-8. On to our next story. By Monday, we will have a new Prime Minister. The Conservative leadership contest may have felt like a long process, but at 12.30 on Monday, we will know who will get the keys to number 10. It's down to the 200,000 or so Conservative members to choose who our next leader will be. Lots of them have already voted. Well, someone we've been speaking to throughout the contest is Ella Robertson-McKay, the National Chair of the Conservative Young Women Group,

which is made up of about 1,200 women under the age of 35. Ella has previously shared polling with Women's Hour, which found that the majority of her members want Rishi Sunak to win. Well, yesterday, Ella interviewed both the candidates and grilled them on issues put forward by her members. And Ella joins me now. Before we get on to what you asked the candidates, Ella, what do you make of what you've just heard about misconduct in the party? Good morning. Well, obviously, you can imagine that my members also wanted to talk about that very important issue. Lots of them are Westminster staffers who work in and around Westminster.

And it's something that we all care deeply about. It's important that young women, young men all are able to work safely and with dignity. And that's something that I spent quite a bit of time talking to both candidates about. So it was very upsetting testimony. But I really appreciate the role of the media in shining a light on it because I think it's one of the things that did come up in that report is that Westminster can be a bit of a rumour mill. And it's quite hard to then pin an investigation on somebody on the basis of rumour.

So it does take thorough investigative reporting to make institutions like Parliament, but many other places that experience high levels of sexual harassment and sexual misconduct, to make sure that their systems are strong enough and that the culture is strong enough that people don't think twice about reporting. They know exactly where to go and they know that they will be supported. As Parliament said, there really is a long way to go in Westminster. And my members are working really hard to be part of the change. Yeah. And what are the types of conversations that happen amongst your members? 1,200 young women, Conservative Party members. What kind of conversations have you had about it?

Well, I mean, the first thing to say is it sadly does affect all political parties. The whip of the SNP was suspended this summer for sexual harassment. And I think it's quite rightly, the spotlight has shone more brightly on the Conservative Party because they're in government. But I wouldn't want to do a disservice to staffers who experience really horrific things

under other political parties either. I think people are impatient. I think the narrative that people find it hard to complain because they're worried about the impact on their own careers is still very true. And I think it's something that that's where we really need to make sure the systems are more robust so that people don't feel that they will be punished if they bring these things to attention, because it benefits everyone when these things are raised properly. I think, unfortunately,

we have lost two by-elections already this year off the back of sexual misconduct. There are other MPs who've lost the whip. So whilst that's very unfortunate, the consequence of that is that everyone's taking it very seriously now because as long with the most important moral issues, the political ramifications are very clear.

And so no one's able to dismiss this and say oh well you know it's young women and you know they should they should they should behave differently or so on and so forth because the consequences are very real um it's unfortunate it's taken it's got to this stage but i do feel that people are um taking this very seriously and and as i said i raised it. So, yes, what did they say about it? You've interviewed both Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. What did they say about it and how far up in their inbox do you think this issue needs to be? I think it should be at the top of the inbox because I think everyone's experienced a bit of a shaken faith in politics this year. And they both understand that their first job as prime minister will be to set a new tone

and refresh the public and regain the public's trust in number 10 and in the political system. And they've both said that on the campaign. I'm not saying anything new there. Rishi Sunak wanted to reappoint an ethics advisor immediately. There's trust saying that she's going to move the chief whip into number 12 Downing Street to create stronger links between Downing Street and the parliamentary party, which I think is very important. Both of them, I think, are fully aware of the extent of the issue. I read them some testimony from some of my members and I think neither of them are going, oh, well, it's, you know, it's not that big an issue, or it's one or two people, I think they both understand that there does need to be some systemic reform. But also understanding is, you know, as the previous

guest from Sky said, you know, most people in Westminster are very committed public servants who are there to do a good job. But it is unfortunate that these, you know, these incidents do occur and that they can be absolutely horrendous, as we heard earlier today. So what were your other key questions that you put to them? Well, lots of our members are entrepreneurs. And as you may know, the Rose Review found that another 250 billion pounds would be in the economy if women started and scaled businesses at the same rate as men. So we talked a lot about making it easier for women to get funding for things like mini MBAs for female founders.

And we also talked about childcare. Lots of our members are young mums and both candidates are parents and understand that childcare in Britain is the second most expensive in Europe after Switzerland. And one of the other issues is 75% of women do choose to return to work. And once their first kid's 12,

I think that their pay is something like a third less than an equivalent man. So we do need to put in more support for women who return to work. And I think, I mean, both of them said that childcare, there's not a small policy on childcare that it does need a complete overhaul and are committed to doing that.

So hopefully that's something that we'll see before the next election, because it's something that they both hear about everywhere they go on the campaign trail and certainly something that I hear about a lot. So these are the topics you wanted to put to them. But what about them? Liz Truss, favourite to win, will be the third female Conservative Prime Minister in the country. What topics was she most interested in? What did she want to talk to you about? Well, I was pretty adamant on getting my members' questions across. Good.

We were pretty robust about that. She was very keen to talk about making sure that she appointed the right kind of cabinet. For example, we talked about racial disparities in the NHS. British and Asian women are twice as more likely to die in childbirth than white women. Black women are four times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. Black women are four times more likely to die in childbirth. And she wanted to make sure that she appointed a health secretary who was going to look at that very carefully, because I think she felt that overall the treatment of women in the NHS, particularly when it came to maternity in the pandemic, hadn't been good enough.

And she's committed to doing more on that. What would Rishi Sunak do about that? So Liz Truss said she'd committed to a was here. What would Rishi Sunak do about that? So Liz Truss said she'd committed to a health secretary. What would Rishi Sunak do? Yeah, I think he felt that we needed to get more. He's quite a data-driven person. He wants to do more investigation into what makes up these problems. He'd written a report on it previously, I think even before he'd become an MP,

and wanted to get more into the data on it. But agreed, these things are terrible and should not be happening in a high-income Western democracy. And I think they were both, you know, I'm glad we had the chance to raise it because it's something that a lot of our members are very concerned about. We also talked about, well, we talked about a lot of issues,

but we talked about Violence Gets Women and Girls, which is something that we campaign on as an organisation a lot. They're both committed to getting the online safety bill through the House in some form and do want to really, really make a point of tackling violence against women and girls. Liz Trust is particularly concerned about delays in the justice system and the experience that women have to go through when they report sexual violence, which I think we know is arduous and demanding and she wants to really take that on. Now, Ella, you were actually in quite a rare position, rare privileged position, in that you got to interview both candidates.

So how were you left feeling at the end of it? Did you have equal time with both of them? More or less. And I asked them the same set of questions. I feel that both of them have, I think they're both pretty knackered, actually. It's been a long old campaign, but the British public has had to sit through it as well. I think that they're both very serious people and they both take these issues incredibly seriously. And I think Boris Johnson, being more of a showman prime minister, probably set a slightly different tone on these kinds of things. I think that they both feel kind of ready to step into the shoes, but I think they both feel the pressure of the fact that we are going into potentially a horrifically difficult winter,

that the British public have never been more worried, certainly in my lifetime, about their personal finances and how they're going to get through this winter, and that they have a tremendous amount they need to deliver immediately. And I think the weight of responsibility that comes with that, you know, ultimately they're, you know, very famous politicians,

but they're people. And that's a demanding job, no matter, you know, no matter who you are. Have you voted? I have voted. Who did you vote for? Well, it's a secret ballot and my members are very much across the board.

We've got lots of very passionate Rishi Sunak fans, lots of people who want Liz the leader. And I wouldn't want my personal vote to be taken as a representation of the group. So I will keep that to myself for now. But I have submitted my ballot. Ella, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. And thank you for being our eyes and ears

on the inside of what young conservative women have been feeling about this recently. So thank you very much for speaking to us. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about wearing fabulous clothes. If you've just joined us, you're late to the party, but it's okay. You're not late to the party, you're on time. It's frock up Friday. Just go and put a fancy dress on anita my amazing dressing gown made from bits of recycled fabric makes me feel happy it's made by emma at spitting feathers in yorkshire yorkshire just left the sunshine off scotland's isle of lewis this morning how nice my gypsy dress i bought from a stall at a ukulele festival this is getting more and more interesting by the minute never had the course to wear it thanks to woman's hour it's on and it's out i'm cheering caroline richard from chorley and susan from galway in scotland says during the whole of lockdown i protected my mood by always dressing up as if somebody might pop in i genuinely never wore leggings once in case i slid down that slippery slope into a vat of red wine and peanuts frock up friday is my

everyday ethos well the reason i'm telling you about this is because I'm very excited to introduce my next two guests, because they're the women who set this up. Women after my own heart. At the start of lockdown in spring 2020, these two mates living in Hastings set up a Facebook group for friends to experience the excitement of dressing up on a Friday and getting ready to go out when everybody was forced to stay at home. The Frock Up Friday movement was born and within three weeks the group had 10,000 members worldwide and now two years later their number is 15,000 and they're still growing. They've published a photo book showing some of their fabulous outfits and they've organised a festival for everyone to actually meet up in person this weekend. friends who founded the group are beverly francis and suzy sims or as they call themselves the mother frockers welcome to woman's hour boy am i glad i got that out in the right way um well a band in real life festival this is what what of a turn of events people are actually going to get a chance to come face to face.

Yeah, absolutely. We did have a small festival last year, but this year we haven't got lockdown. So we've got people coming from all over the world to visit lovely St. Leonard's on Sea. So it's really exciting for us. And we've got people from America, Tel Aviv, Spain, France and Scotland. I mean, it's quite a lot of pressure knowing what to wear when you go out anyway. I feel like the added pressure of coming to your festival,

like what is the number one outfit you're going to wear to this one? It'd be incredible. Do you know, as a group, we're so inclusive. It's like you can wear what you want, how you want. And it's really really really inclusive and it celebrates um individuality you can be the same as everyone else so we just don't allow nakedness on the page but there might be a few um this weekend because it's it's it's a beach theme so who knows what's going to happen yeah people, people will do what they want to do. I actually think your origin story is delightful,

how the two of you met at a party. Who was dressed as a pineapple? Both of us. Everyone. It's really funny. It was how Bev and Susie were to continue because Bev had this beautiful yellow dress on and a handmade, she's a milliner,

and a handmade gorgeous headpiece. And I had a really awful green dress in it, a foot tall papier-mâché pineapple. It was just terrible. And so we've continued exactly like that really. And your love of clothes has brought you together because you just mentioned there, Bev, you're a milliner. But the way you started your hat business, you dove into a skip. A skip helped you start your hat business. This is actually true. I was walking past a skip in Soho and I did have a pencil skirt on at that time.

And this skip was absolutely full of hat blocks. And I'd actually learned to be a milliner but hadn't got any hat blocks so I just piled them all into a taxi and the taxi driver looked at me very strangely because some hat blocks look a little bit like toilet seats I think he thought what the heck is she doing and I literally did climb right in the skip to just get all of the hat blocks out

and that's actually how I started that business. So fashion and flamboyance is kind of in you, Bev. And Susie, it was your auntie, you grew up in Northumberland and your auntie introduced you to Elvis and this sparked your love of the quiff. You look great. I'm wearing one right now. Yeah, well it's inspired us to work to like

50s clothes and the like but I'm not that I've not been that much into fashion really I just really I just really love Bev and I love being

I love being individual you could put it if my family's listening they might say I always have dressed a bit nuts but

I'm nowhere near in Bev's range. But we did meet because I set my house on fire. So I got more into clothes when I lived with Bev for two years. And I get to style it out on stage in my things that you wouldn't normally be able to. You know, I can feel the joy just chatting to the two of you, just looking at you both. And so this started in lockdown where you decided to dress be able to. You know, I can feel the joy just chatting to the two of you, just looking at you both. And so this started in lockdown where you decided to dress up every Friday.

You set up a Facebook group just for your friends and then it grew and grew and grew. And now you've published this delightful book of photographs of members of the public who decided to join you. And it is delightful because you have the stories of people within the book. Tell us about some of the standout stories for you, the ones that really warm your heart. There are so many stories. There's joyful stories and there's really quite sad stories. But I think the ones that stand out are the people who missed their graduation.

There was a lot of people who missed their graduation. There was the nurses who were struggling on work and then dressing up and we also had um people who were um struggling with um cancer um one of one of the stories that stands out is one of our um members actually found out during covid lockdown that she um was clear of cancer and she she couldn't celebrate with anyone. So she put a ball gown on, rang the bell and 14,000 people got behind her and said congratulations and supported her. And she says it was like having an army of 14,000 people behind her. So that was fantastic. On the flip side of that, we did have someone who died of cancer,

but she was an amazing person called deborah and every day she would post a picture of herself dressed up and she loved sparkly things and she would always sort of say she was fighting cancer everyone got behind her was supportive but sadly she lost her fight um but she requested for her funeral that all the frockers dressed up in sparkles and they could join her funeral and three thousand all the frockers dressed up in sparkles and they could join her funeral. And 3,000 of the frockers actually joined the funeral online. And we all dressed up in sparkles. It was an amazing day.

It was. It was. And another one that stands out, we got a – that was on New Year's Day as well, Deborah left us, wasn't it? And I got a message one christmas of a lady who um she'd gone to visit her father-in-law and i think this is in canada and um the her dad had received this book on christmas eve or something and she had no idea what it was so they hunted through the book um and there's there's a good thousand pictures in there and they found a picture of the wife or her mother-in-law and um and it was a message she had been dressed up on the way

to their kids' wedding and it was the message about keep going and um you know it was a really vibrant message a lifelong message and um and she had actually died she'd sent the photograph in in May and she died in June so the the whole family felt like they got a message from the other side for Christmas kind of thing oh we just kept getting so many heartbreaking and lovely stories it is it is an incredible emotion incredibly emotional book I didn't know what to expect and then when as I was flicking through it yesterday, I mean, it's very joyful. The stories and the testimonies and the things that people have written

are very emotional. But you've also catalogued a time that we lived through. And we've almost forgotten about it in a way. We've kind of put it to the back of our minds. And here it was. We lived through this traumatic quite difficult event but you have catalogued it in the most beautiful way when you think about what you've done you know what you've achieved what what and you know it just started as a small idea about something to do just to

cheer yourselves up and your mates what do you think about it now? I think we're still in shock actually because even when we made a book we couldn't believe we'd made a book because that was during lockdown and we had no money and our community got behind us and helped us finance it. And we pre-sold copies to people. So they bought a book that didn't exist so it could go to print. And I think we're still quite in shock about the fact that we've made this beautiful book.

And it is a beautiful book. And the stories do tell everyone about that time. There's every kind of person in there and the selfie pictures as well, which is very much of our time, people taking selfies. I have to say your community is going to grow because the Women's Hour community are sending me pictures of themselves looking absolutely fabulous. Which is a selfie, but I couldn't find your WhatsApp number. 03700.

Oh, if I was more professional, I'd know it off the top of my head, but I don't. I'll come back to it. Tell me what... It's quite lovely, though, because since the book and up until the festival, you know, everyone's been in the group. Well, they're still joining.

People are still joining fresh on a daily basis basis but everyone kind of knows each other a bit and they know what trials people have gone through and it's not just about the posting of the picture when a picture goes up it's kind of got a bit of the story added to it like the book has and then everyone will flood in with messages of I love your shoes or how is it how is your back or whatever the case might be and they're flooded with compassion it's it was first of all about giving yourself self-compassion and getting out of your pajamas and making yourself feel great and shaving your legs blah blah blah and but but we didn't tell anyone to do it it just happened where they comment on each other's pictures and wish each other well and ask how each other are doing.

And it's a massive community of mental health support. And it's really insane when you meet each other face to face because you feel like you really know these people, but you've never really seen them before. You know, people just walk up and burst into tears in front of us. Absolutely. You are women after my own heart, I must say. And I have to, I was going to, you've got this phrase, be more fuff. Tell us quickly what fuff means, F-U-F.

It means, because people are often hashtagging or we hashtag be more fuff, like be more fuff and pride. And we had to realise, what does that mean? So when we had our little three-day accidental book launch last year, we decided that we should take the ethos of the group from inside the Facebook group to the outside world and spread the ethos of being more free-thinking, being more unique, being more fabulous.

Fabulous. Love it. Absolutely love it. You have been an absolute delight. Congratulations on what you've done, what you've set up. I bet your numbers are going to go up today. And good luck with the festival in real life, Bev and Susie. Best sell tickets at frockupfriday.com. There you go.

And that WhatsApp number, 03700100444. I knew it. Of course I did. Messages still coming in. Every day is Frock up Friday for me, and usually it's upcycled eco-print clothes I make and sell. Silk cardigan and silk trousers printed with eucalyptus, sycamore and sumac, all from my garden or village. Win, win, win. Now, in July, the healthcare charity Nuffield Health published data which showed that 40 per 7 of

women have done no vigorous exercise in the past year. It was quickly pointed out that there might be lots of reasons for this, lack of time and money for example, but there are other factors too. Everybody Outdoors is a group of women who are determined to fight for clothing and kits which fits them and they want to see larger and plus-sized people out and doing exercise. Charlotte Petz joined five of the group in the Brecon Beacons as they walked and talked about their campaign and their experiences. Before setting off, Steph gave the walkers a few tips about the route. It's on a reasonable path to start off with,

then there's a little bit of, like, off path. Take breaks whenever you want okay onwards so my name is Steph Wetherall I am one of the co-founders of Everybody Outdoors it came about through talking to a number of different people online about the challenges we were facing as plus-size people, not being able to get a kit, never kind of seeing our bodies represented. And so I kind of convened a group of random people I met on Instagram.

We set up an Instagram page and it just kind of massively took off. The initial campaigning was about trying to work with brands to kind of increase the size of the clothes that they were offering, but also to increase, like, the quality of the fit. A lot of brands just scale up from a size 8, and then you get to a plus-size body, and it doesn't fit. Because, you know, body shape changes. Like, I need trousers with a higher rise to go over my belly and my bum and my hips.

Do you mind me asking what size you are? So I'm a size 20 in high street clothes. You know, above a size 18, really, there is or has been very little technical clothing. And it's just become a really nice place for people to share their experiences and to ask for advice, talk about the clothing and kit they've found that does work,

ask for suggestions. You know, we get a lot of people asking about sleeping bags, waterproof coats, climbing harnesses, everything. And it's just kind of a really nice community resource. Out of that, seeing groups kind of like today come together, where people are just meeting up to be able to do things in the outdoors with other people that might have bodies who look more like theirs and who they feel comfortable doing things or trying new things with. I come out on a walk like this and I'm not thinking about what I'm wearing or the speed I'm going at or how sweaty I look going up a hill or what I'm eating which is a huge thing I feel like a lot of people feel judged about for what they consume

when they're out doing outdoorsy things. And I think that's just been amazing to find. Have you had sort of direct negativity or is it a perception that it might happen? I get a lot of judgment that I'm a newbie to hiking. People look at me and presume I've just started, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm a newbie to hiking people look at me and presume I've just started I don't know what I'm doing

I'm going on a short walk people are surprised when I walked I walked the highest mountain in southern Scotland and I was at the trailhead and somebody said oh where are you going and I was like going up there and he went oh oh you know like kind of shocked

that I was doing the same route that he was and like on multi-day hikes when I've done them people I've met people oh, you know, like kind of shocked that I was doing the same route that he was. And like on multi-day hikes when I've done them, I've met people that you can, people can't hide the kind of shock and the surprise. So it's not always necessarily being like active over negativity. There's just a lot, there's a lot of preconceptions. And I think a lot of assumptions about people's abilities. Do we know the altitude here?

Because I'm sending my friend a message saying, trying not to barf. Something, something feet. Hold on, I can tell you exactly how many feet you are. Hold on. You are 541 feet. Metres. Metres. 541 metres.

Yeah, the feet wasn't going to be so impressive. Yeah so impressed I was like I'm sure we can I might not send that text this is the perpetual metric versus imperial whenever I text Steph and I'm like should I buy this or should I get this coat I don't know it's a 52 waist and I'm like no

tell me in kilometres how fat I am I have to say, understanding my measurements has really helped me actually be able to buy clothes online because I think size charts are so rubbish they vary so much I did not use them at all until I met you

I was just like, well I guess I feel like a number 18 today so let's buy it and then get disappointed go on a website and it's like the first thing I'm doing is going for the size chart basically because you know I'm an eating disorder kind of recovery person and I think for a long time measuring of any kind any quantification whether it was calories or weight or whatever

was really just too difficult and too... You started gamifying it. You start kind of playing with it in your mind. So it's only through exercising and through powerlifting I've found a kind of like, OK, well, these measurements, this is data for lifting more weight eventually. It's really interesting how now I don't feel as emotive at all about it. It's just a number.

I weigh myself in kilos just because I feel more dispassionate about kilos. I'm like, okay, I weigh 100 kilos. I can lift 140 kilos. So I know that, you know, I'm like, that's where I am. You're not the first British woman who does that. I can't weigh myself in pounds or stones because it makes no sense to me.

So I have to weigh myself in kilos. But so many women I know, they go, go yeah I know pounds, I know stone but actually if I weigh myself in kilos it feels less loaded. The numbers associated with stones relate to like that weight loss thing for me whereas like my inches around my hips is a number that doesn't have any kind of connection to anything but I'm also aware of the number that doesn't have any kind of connection to anything. But I'm also aware of the fact that I probably have a little bit of privilege as being the smaller end of plus size, because I know people who every time they go to their GP, who are larger than me, get weighed, get measured,

regardless of what they've gone about. And then it's a huge, constant agenda. So I went on to the GP to ask about eczema and the GP offered me diet pills and I was like oh sorry you know I thought we were here to talk about my hands and you haven't asked me about my like diet about my exercise about my history of eating disorders and in the same sentence you've also admitted they don't really work yeah maybe the doctor's offering you speed you know come on now I think the last time that kind of I had a GP kind of remark that I put on weight, I was just like, check my notes.

I had bulimia. I'm not vomiting anymore. Like, this is a gain. This is an actual win. Yeah. The framework you're using isn't quite suitable now. Like, maybe, you know, in the future. But like...

What you consider a win is not what i consider a win and also with powerlifting it's predominantly people who look like me and you have an athletic advantage being an absolute unit it's fantastic yeah but i think that's what i love about the outdoors it's like it for me the outdoors doesn't have a it's not about weight boss it's like there's no pressure there like i feel strong and i feel fitter when I'm in the outdoors. You try to get through a stile. I try to get through a stile and you can't get through. But I think it's really important to inspire people with the joy of the outdoors.

We had somebody recently suggesting it would be great to use the obesity agenda to encourage people into the outdoors and reducing obesity. And I was like, nope, that's not what we're about. We're really about just encouraging people to get out there and find the joy in it and to do it for themselves I mean I've struggled with my weight forever and what I've learned over the last few years is that you know what just showing up is sometimes enough and the fact that okay maybe I walked a K and tomorrow I might walk two but I've walked a K.

Whereas I could have stayed home and sat on the couch and ate crisps. I can still do that when I'm done with the K. Gorgeous. It's so pretty up here. Yeah. Shall we head on? I'm really hoping these aren't horseflies. In fairness, if they were horseflies,

they would have totally eaten me alive by now. Everyone else is going to be fine if there's horseflies up here. Do you know what? They love me. I know, they love me too. I have this allergic reaction to it. Horseflies and mosquitoes especially. And when I went into the doctor and I was like, I have a reaction that lasts for four days. I can't stop it. And he was like, oh well, they do tend

to prefer the Rubens-esque lady. The what? Sorry, what? The Rubens-esque lady. And I was just like, what is Rubens Ask Lady and I was just like where is your science so awful I'm ready to go

Hi I'm Sarah Hughes I came on board with Steph as part of the team for Everybody Outdoors I think just because I was enthusiastic and I came up with the name

and I think they felt obliged even though I am a kind of novice to a lot of these activities. I had, like a lot of people, I guess started looking at my work-life balance during the lockdown. I'm the business casual hiker. I have been known to make do with some pretty sketchy kit. And I'm still not kind of as kitted out as the rest of the team, for sure.

But I have climbed mountains and the Caucasus in Chelsea boots I there's a photo that exists of me somewhere on the Preseli Hills in a tailored a tailored short from next and some hunters wellies I just thought it wasn't for me because I was so uncomfortable so uncomfortable and things like pace setting feeling left behind all that sort of stuff I went to Cambridge for university and what I learned from these kind of immaculately turned out private school people was that they'd been taught to be entitled to all of this stuff. It was theirs.

And that you can actually use that power for good for people who perhaps don't feel like they belong. We've got some horses. Beautiful ponies. Oh, this day can't get any better. What a lovely item. That was Sarah there. You also heard from Caris, Valerie, Nia and Steph. And Julie has been in touch with the programme to say,

I don't drive, so I get my exercise every day by walking everywhere. My route to the supermarket passes a gym where I observe the Lycra Brigade arriving in their fuel guzzling cars to use the energy guzzling machines. This is the opposite of green and totally unnecessary. Ditch the car, you won't need the gym, she says. Now, you may remember a few weeks ago, we began our series on fangirls,

exploring the subculture of women that's often been ridiculed, described as hysterical, obsessive, juvenile and embarrassing. There was nothing embarrassing about my New Kids on the Block obsession at the age of 11. Can't believe I've just shared that with the world.

Moving on. We spoke to Eve Blake, who has written a musical called Fangirls, and that's currently on at the Sydney Opera House and at the moment. And Hannah Ewans, music writer at Rolling Stone, and asked whether we've misunderstood fangirls. This is Eve's definition of a fangirl. If you look in the dictionary, it's going to say a woman who is a fan of something. And in some dictionaries, it'll even say who is like overly enthusiastic about something, which I think is inherently gendered, right? But I'm really interested in the word fangirl as like verb, because to me, to fangirl is to be able to express enthusiasm about something and to love

something without apology. And I think that a lot of people really look down on fangirling because they see it as inherently cringe. But to quote my favourite meme of the year, I think, you know, to be cringe is to be free. To cringe is to be free. And then on Wednesday we heard from Heta Batts, a junior doctor from London who's a member of the BTS Army, the K-pop band BTS's fandom,

who discussed why she thinks they're one of the most politically active fandoms at the moment. Well, today in the final part of our series, we ask, is there a darker side to fangirling? Well, joining me to talk about that is the freelance reporter, Jessica Lucas, who covers internet culture for Input magazine. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Jessica. Thank you very much. Should we be celebrating fangirls? It's just harmless isn't it? I mean yes I think the key thing to understand is just that we shouldn't

be celebrating all of them so there's lots of incredible things we can celebrate about fangirls, their creativity, their passion, the online communities they've built. But it would be irresponsible to ignore the darker side of their world. And while problematic fangirls don't necessarily make up the majority of fangirls, we still have to recognise and observe them. Okay then, take us there. You've been researching some of these darker sides to fangirl behaviour. Just how dark can it get? It can get pretty unhinged.

I looked at a fandom that was built around an influencer called William White. So for the uninitiated, William White is what we call a thirst trap TikToker. He makes sexy videos, which are usually used to lure in young teenage viewers, teenage girls. But in the case of William White, he was focused on luring in Gen X women. So a slightly older cohort. He did that largely through using 70s and 80s themed music and developed quite an obsessive fan base. Now, while that might sound harmless, it ended up with, you know, such a rabid group of women interacting with each other online that it led to doxing, death threats, incidences of stalking. I'm now hearing from fandom members who I've spoken to recently that there may have been money laundering going on. So, you know, there's an incredible amount of ways that it can go wrong because people exist in these echo chambers where their passionate behaviour is constantly supported. And if they are being healthy and reasonable about it,

that's perfectly fine. But, you know, in the fandom I've just described, those kind of echo chambers can cause things to go horribly wrong. There's also a fandom dedicated to someone called Larry Stylinson. That's not the same as harry harry styles fandom what is it what's larry stylinson so larry stylinson doesn't actually exist it's a portmanteau of the names harry styles and lewis tomlinson both of whom are music artists that were once in the band one direction so larry Larry's Stylist and Fans, or Larry's as they call themselves,

are mostly queer young women in their late teens and early 20s who believe in a particular conspiracy theory. And that conspiracy theory is that Styles and Tomlinson are in a clandestine gay relationship, which has been hidden from the public for years in order to protect the financial interests of the music labels that manage their careers um just to put that into context it's you know pretty outlandish but it's also extremely popular so on tiktok the hashtag

larry stylinson has 8.2 billion views wow it's so it's a conspiracy theory? It is a conspiracy theory, yes. So what do you think should be done about this then? Should there be regulation? I mean, you were talking about money being extorted when the Will White situation. So what kind of regulation is there around any of this? And should there be? There's not any regulation around fangirls in particular.

They're held to the same standards as other internet users. So they should be adhering to the policies social media companies set out. You know, things like bullying and hate speech generally aren't accepted. But there's only so much vitriol that moderators can combat, which is why this stuff ends up continuing i mean a large part of problematic behavior when it comes to fangirls is kind of down to anonymity it's much easier to be vicious or cruel when there won't be any repercussions for your actions um but messing with anonymity which is a huge part of the internet and its appeal, opens up a much larger minefield. So I'm not really sure that there's much that could be done. And even if we were

going to do something, fandoms are so unique. And I think any policing should be coming from within those groups rather than from outside of them so i wonder what that is about human psychology because i mean i'm sure if we met some of these fans in who were kind of being swept away by what the anonymity what the anonymity brings if we met them in real life they might be perfectly nice normal people oh yeah absolutely and in the process of interviewing these people, you do find out, you know, these are mothers, sisters, professional employees, students, they are out there living normal lives. So what happens? What happens when they get on the net? before is it's partially being in an echo chamber it's sort of having your ideas however unhinged they might be so for example the larry stylinson fans at one point believed that lewis tomlinson's son was a cyborg planted on him to cover up his gay relationship with harry styles um if you're surrounded by people who are telling you that's right, that's perfectly normal and

you are right in thinking it and also there are no consequences for you believing in or talking about this thing because everything that you're doing is anonymous then it'd be easy to get caught up and it's I think it's also you know down to people wanting to be part of something. You know, a feeling of belonging is really powerful and it's easy to get swept up in these things when I guess that sense of belonging is there and it's kind of pulling on our emotions. So be a fangirl or be a fanboy, but just rein it in. Keep a check on yourself.

Jess, thank you very much. And if you want to hear all the other fangirl discussions, then go to BBC Sounds. I want to thank you all for your messages and your photographs in particular of you looking absolutely fabulous for Frock Up Friday. Go to at BBC Woman's Hour if you want to join in and post your pic. Have a great weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.