Woman's Hour - Funmi Fetto on her new book, the lack of diversity in the beauty industry and her mission to change it

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

At least 200,000 older people experienced domestic abuse last year – but the over 75s are being overlooked according to Age UK. Caroline Abrahams is the charity director and joins Jane.Last year, the music journalist Wanna Thompson posted a tweet about the new album of superstar rapper, Nicki Minaj. The tweet went viral and Wanna received thousands of angry replies from superfans of the star. To discuss the impact of superfans’ responses on music journalism, we hear from Hannah Ewens, Vice journalist and author of ‘FanGirls’, and Wanna Thompson, the music journalist at the centre of the Twitter storm. Funmi Fetto is the Executive Editor and Beauty Director of Glamour magazine. After many years of being asked by friends, family and stranger on the street for advice on beauty products for women of colour, Funmi decided to curate a comprehensive guide, leading to the release of her new book: Palette: The Beauty Bible for Women of Colour. She speaks to Jane about the lack of inclusivity in the beauty industry and her mission to change it. International bestselling novelist, Johana Gustawsson has just published a new thriller, 'Blood Song'. The investigation takes readers from the terror of Franco’s rule in 1938 to fertility clinics today in Sweden and Spain. Johana draws on her own experiences of IVF and her struggle to conceive to write 'Blood Song'. Writing the novel was not only a cathartic experience for Johana, it also represented the moment that her husband Mattias agreed to be open about his infertility, their need for a sperm donor and the fact that their three boys are the result of IVF. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Caroline Abrahams Interviewed Guest: Hannah Ewens Interviewed Guest: Wanna Thompson Interviewed Guest: Funmi Fetto Interviewed Guest: Johana Gustawsson Interviewed Guest: Mattias Gustawsson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday the 4th of October 2019. On the podcast today, a new book called Palette, the beauty bible for women of colour. It's by the beauty editor of Glamour, Funmi Feto. She's on the podcast today.

The super fans who cannot wait to rush in and protect their idols. They can make life really tough, especially if you're a music critic and especially if you're a female music critic, as you'll hear on the podcast today. And how a best-selling international novelist struggled to conceive with her husband and how their experiences contributed to a gripping new thriller about corruption in the fertility industry. That's all today. We start with at least 200,000 older people have gone through domestic abuse last year, but the over 75s are all too often overlooked, according to the charity Age UK. I spoke to Caroline Abrahams, who's the charity's director, and asked her why she thinks this is the case. Well, the numbers aren't collected. That's the real problem.

The crime survey from which those numbers came only goes up to the age of 74. So it means that we actually don't have any official statistics at all about what happens to people who are over 75. Maybe in the past there was a thought that everybody was dying much younger, but now, of course, it's completely out of date. Now, it may be that people are abused by partners or close relatives, or it could be a carer, unfortunately. It absolutely could. And with living care on the rise, I don't want to put people off living care.

I think it can be an excellent solution, and indeed I use it myself for my mother. But, of course, that means there's somebody living in the house who's got actually enormous responsibility. But if they have the wrong motives, then there is the scope for things to go wrong. Well, we're about to hear, voiced up by one of our colleagues here at the BBC, the experience of one older man that your charity has been involved with. Let's hear what he has gone through.

When my wife Mary died, my world fell apart. I had no idea how to do anything around the house and had no family or friends to help. That's when I called Sean. He was like a grandson to Mary and she always said he was a good lad. Sean was a great support. When he moved in, he took over all the things Mary did, washing, shopping, paying the bills. In return I gave him a home. He helped me draw up a list of work that needed to be done

around the house and got his friends to help him. I'd lost my driving license due to poor eyesight so Sean persuaded me he could become my chauffeur if he learned to drive. So I paid for his lessons and bought him a car. He was able to take me to appointments and out for pub lunches. I missed Mary terribly, but Sean became a good friend and was good company. I knew he was helping himself to my bank account, but I needed him more than I needed my money. I noticed a few years back that my memory was starting to fade, so I signed a lasting power of attorney giving Sean authority to manage my finances.

Sean said he would make sure I'll never have to go into a home. My GP tells me how fortunate I am to have Sean, who meets all my needs. I feel quite sleepy and muddled a lot of the time, but I know I've got Sean to look after me. He's not perfect, he does have a temper on him and he doesn't like us having visitors. So I've learned to keep quiet, not cause any fuss and do as I'm told. I spend most of my days in my bedroom, reading, sleeping and watching TV. Sean likes it that way. Well, Caroline, that's a really depressing experience to hear about.

First of all, do we know whether that man is all right or is Sean still in the picture? Well, I think the fact that he came into contact with AGK means that that situation will have been resolved. But you can see how easily, over a long period of time, something that starts off as a helpful and caring relationship turned into something that was anything but. And really very invisible to everybody else, except for this brave man who finally came to notice.

The line, I needed him more than I needed my money that's it's reality isn't it unfortunately for a lot of isolated older people. Yeah and isolation must be part of the problem here these people just don't necessarily come to notice and that's the whole problem of course with domestic abuse at any age but perhaps particularly for older people. It is true though that most abuse will be going on between couples and of course when you're older there is every chance that you are both feeling vulnerable, you may both be frail and you are obliged to spend an enormous amount of time together. Going out, seeing friends may not be something you can do every day anymore so

what do we do about all this? Well one of the things that AGK thinks would help is if actually we were training doctors, nurses, people who work in A&E, those sorts of places, quite often the time that this first comes to notice with an older person is when they either go into hospital or are coming home again when perhaps they seem unduly frightened about going home. That's a really good clue that there's something that needs looking into that's going on in the home environment. At the moment, doctors and nurses aren't trained to think about these things, and we very much think that's important. It's a rare opportunity to intervene and to help many victims of domestic abuse.

Ultimately, the statistic collection, I can hardly say it, the statistic collection has to be changed, doesn't it, to include people over the age of 74? I think absolutely. Even if the current way of collecting data, which is all through self-completed questionnaires, I think, isn't necessarily going to work for over 75, then we have to find another way.

But just to ignore this altogether, just airbrushes out a whole cohort of people who desperately need help. Well, I can understand the desire to airbrush it out, as you put it, because it's not something that most people want to think about, is it? No, it absolutely isn't. It absolutely conflicts with our image of what it's like to be an older person. And as another of our case studies said, you know, people congratulate her on staying with her husband for year upon year. And as she said, if only they, you know, people congratulate her on staying with her husband for year upon year. And as she said, if only they knew.

So obviously there's an onus, too, on relatives. Not everybody lives close to their parents. Not everybody can be with their parents as much as they'd like to. It's heaping yet more pressure on people, particularly women in middle age, isn't it, all this? I suppose it probably is. We certainly do get calls from uh from sons and daughters and indeed from neighbors and friends who who feel that this might be something going wrong for an older person that they know it might be

it might be domestic abuse it might be a different form of safeguarding issue but i think just being vigilant um and if something doesn't feel right do feel free to either ring Age UK or ring one of the domestic abuse helplines. There's lots of people out there who want to hear about this and it can be anonymous. You can ring up and you can just explain and have a chat with somebody if you're worried. But horrifyingly, Caroline, and I don't want to make this even worse for people, if you are going through dementia, for example, if you are frail, you won't be able to ask for help you

certainly won't be able to pick up the phone and chat to age uk that's true and that's why really all the professionals that might be involved in that person's case maybe their carers coming in and out of the home they might be the gp they do all need proper training and support so that they can be on the lookout for things that just don't feel right for them. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you being on the programme today. That's Caroline Abrahams, who is the Director of Age UK. Now, I mentioned women in middle age there.

Women in middle age feature on some of the front pages of the newspapers today. The Daily Mail, 4 million women and the retirement age betrayal is their headline. Daily Mirror, women's new pension blow, the ill's fight over having to work for longer. This is the WASPI women, of course, who featured on Woman's Hour yesterday morning when the ruling from the High Court came through.

And many of you, of course, were moved to contact the programme during the programme yesterday, but also afterwards. And I'm just going to read out some of the emails from people who were really angered by that High Court ruling yesterday. This is from Jane, who says, until 64. Then it went to 66 without any notice to those concerned. I was diagnosed with bone marrow cancer at 61 and had to give up work and claim ESA employment support allowance, which is half the amount of the pension. I have a workplace pension, so I'm not financially ruined, but that extra money would have been invaluable. Having cancer is a very expensive business. And Jane says she was born on June the 1st 1955 so she's right in the heart of it this is from Chrissy having worked hard from the age of 17 I planned a retirement at 60 as did many other women and I now find myself in dire straits

I knew nothing about the increase in my pension age until a few months before my 60th birthday over the last three years I haven't been able to find employment and I'm living on a reduced occupational pension and handouts from relatives and friends. As I heard the result of that review yesterday, I was out food shopping. Well, back went the luxury items like the packet of biscuits I allow myself every month in an effort to make the small amount I'm able to budget for food go a little further. Honestly I'm close to tears as I write this and I really can't see how I can cope for another two plus years. And from Sheila I took time off to look after my two kids. This is expected of me by my husband though I work part-time because he always spent more than

we jointly earned. I had two prolapsed discs, but he still insisted I didn't decrease my hours of work. We are now divorced. I've just been diagnosed with cancer and I've had two operations and treatment for the next seven years lies ahead. I am 64 and I am really struggling. This judgment has made women's financial load much heavier, not taking into consideration the sexist wage inequality, lower earnings and maternal responsibilities. There are just three emails on the subject of that High Court ruling yesterday. Real life stories and tough times. And I appreciate many people listening now will feel real sympathy for those women. Now, super fans can be, to put it mildly, devoted to their idols. You hear quite a lot about them.

And last year, the American music journalist Wonna Thompson tweeted about a new album by the rapper Nicki Minaj. This is what she said. You know how dope it would be if Nicki put out mature content. She's touching 40 soon. A new direction is needed. Well, that tweet went viral. Wanna had thousands of angry replies from super fans of the star, and she even got a direct message from Nicki Minaj's Twitter account, although we should say Nicki Minaj does deny sending it. So I spoke to Juana and to Hannah Ewins, the vice journalist and author of a book called Fangirls about

the phenomenon of superfans. First of all, here's Juana Thompson telling us about why she sent that tweet. Well, it was on June 29th of last year, and I was listening to Nicki Minaj all day. And you know, I'm like, you know what, I really like her music, but I was listening to Nicki Minaj all day and you know I'm like you know what I really like her music but I would love to see something more mature from her so I tweeted something along the lines of Nicki Minaj I would like to see more mature music and you know she's approaching a certain age so I would think that she would go in that direction and on the way I left the house to go to a podcast taping. And when I was on the way to the podcast, I turned off my phone.

And during the recording, something just told me to check my phone. So I checked my phone and then I see that after a few hours that I had a lot of notifications from angry fans. And what were they angry about? Well, they were angry about my tweet saying that she needs more mature music. They went on to say really derogatory things about me. I had so many notifications coming in that my phone would not load properly. So when I was scrolling my TL, I seen that Nicki Minaj indirectly responded to me listing a bunch of songs that she deemed mature. When I was able to regain access to my account and it wasn't frozen anymore, I seen that she actually personally DM'd me and I thought it was fake.

And lo and behold, it actually was her page. And I've got the text of that DM in front of me now. I mean, I'll read a bit of it um when your ugly ass was 24 you were pushing 30 i'm 34 i'm touching 40 lol and what does that have to do with my music and then it goes on um i mean we're all sensitive about our age i guess you had said that she was getting more mature do you think she's got a point there? Well, the criticism more so was, I was saying as a longtime Nicki Minaj fan that I felt like the progression has stalled.

And at the time, I wasn't thinking of it as an ageism thing. And I really do believe that a lot of artists, when they get older, they make music that relates to where they are in life. And I just felt like her music was not growing progressively at all so I didn't think that my critique was anything of an attack on her but she obviously took it differently than I did. Yeah well to put it mildly she certainly did one. Hannah, is this, is it normal for the artists themselves to contact a music journalist? Well, I think we've seen that a few times recently. You had Ariana did this. So did Lana Del Rey as well.

What they directly, they DM'd or directly contacted a music journalist who'd been critical of them. With Lana Del Rey, she actually tweeted at Ann Powers, who is a very well-respected music journalist, and so did that publicly. And again, it was actually a very similar case of Ann Powers doing a very, very long, well-considered piece of criticism in which she says that she's a fan as well as a critic. And I think it was taken as a piece of deconstructive sort of criticism

rather than something that's very constructive. And what this does to the fan base is that it galvanises them and it gives them permission to pile in as well. And as in Juana's case, they really do. Yeah, absolutely. We've got something now which we would call stan culture. But this isn't just a super fan this is this comes from the title by the way of an eminem song yeah a noughties eminem song um about a fan who got too obsessed with eminem and then it all went very violent so

yeah stan is someone who really wants the artist to win really cares about them getting to number one and will spend a lot of time and energy trying to boost that profile and prove that their artist is better than someone else's artist. What's obviously very difficult for you, Wanda, is this is how you make your living. You are a music journalist. What you do for a living is you talk about performers and musicians. Of course. And I believe after this whole direction or the incident with Nicki Minaj, it kind of affects my work

because every time I do review an album or review a song, there's always some criticism from fans saying, you know, you're just a hater. You can't provide unbiased sound criticism. And it's like, I can. provide unbiased, sound criticism. And it's like, I can, that's what I've been doing. But I do believe this is like a cloud over me where I feel like I have to try 10 times as hard to kind of, you know, get my point across so people don't think I'm just being, you know, like they said, a hater.

What about the fact that it would appear, and you can take me up on this, that female fans are more fanatical, more devoted, and that female artists are more likely to be at the center of this than male artists? What would you say about that, Juana? I do feel like it gets more attention when it's from a female because it's expected. It's expected that women are supposed to you know supposed to be emotional and so I really do feel like female artists in a way do get an unfair shake because I do see equally you know male stans on social media sites like Facebook, Instagram or Twitter and they express their displeasure just as much. Would you agree with that Hannah? Well most stans are young girls women or queer people i think that's fair to say so when we're talking about stan culture we are talking about these groups who are slightly more marginalized

whereas now young female fans always get they are ridiculed in a way that football fans who often are more likely to be male, just don't get. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah, that's interesting. It is interesting that, isn't it? And we just sort of take it without really questioning it. What do you think will happen in the future, Wano? Does this actually threaten, seriously, does it threaten credible music journalism?

Yes, it's a stain where it's like, you know know this musical artist has put this person on blast and you know there's a lot of harassment and targeted harassment that comes with that but i also do believe that if it wasn't basically good criticism they wouldn't have responded because i really do believe that i struck a nerve within nikki minaj because there had to be some truth to it if there wasn't any truth to it i believe she would have continued to scroll and go on with her day has it dented your confidence at all to this day I'm still getting harassed um that has not stopped whatsoever so are we talking daily basis really oh for sure daily I had to use a like a an extension on a web browser to find a blockchain so I could block like thousands of accounts because the harassment was getting so bad. A lot of them still show up. But yeah, it's been like a year and some

and I still get targeted harassment. Don't you think actually, well, you can both answer this. Hannah, you mentioned Ariana Grande and Lana Del Rey also behaving in a similar way. Shouldn't these fabulously rich, successful women just become more thick-skinned about criticism? I know criticism's not great, we all get it, but what do you think about that? I think that if they're going to voice these opinions publicly, they have to remember that fans not only see them as a leader,

which they do, but also as an extension of themselves so when the artist is showing that they feel very attacked by a critic or by anyone online sharing some criticism they are inviting stans almost to respond in some kind of emotional way and they do yes and then I think artists really if they're going to do these things I think they have to remember the power that they have and the power dynamic that they have they have to speak out and I think they have to start doing what Ariana is actually quite good at doing which is telling her fans publicly, please stop doing what you're doing. It's hurtful. So she actually goes out there and says, that's enough now, lay off.

Yeah, she's quite good at doing that. Okay, well, credit to her for that. But what do you think, Wanda? Isn't it time for some of these performers just to grow up a little bit? I do feel like when they see that people are online and voicing their opinions about them, I don't know why they choose to focus on that because there's an outpouring of love and appreciation for them from their fans and from people that are writing very positive pieces about them. Wanda, do you still listen to Nicki Minaj? everyone always asks me that question and to be honest if she does come on the playlist and she's featured with an artist that i do enjoy i'm not gonna skip to the next track but i personally

no longer indulge in like her discography it's something that doesn't interest me due to like what what's been happening with obviously with just her fans being so nasty to me and nothing has been said to stop them, I don't choose to listen to her music. No. Wonna Thompson, the American music journalist. And you also heard from Hannah Ewins, who works for Vice and is the author of a book called Fangirls. Well, since the tweet, we should say Nicki Minaj has denied ever sending a response to Wanda Thompson's original tweet and we did ask for a comment from representatives of Ariana Grande and Lana Del Rey but nobody responded.

Now next week on Woman's Hour we're talking about abortion in the United States. You might know that eight states in America have changed the law on abortion, tightening it up in effect. So we've been talking to staff at an abortion clinic in Missouri and also to protesters holding prayer rallies in Alabama. That we've been talking to staff at an abortion clinic in Missouri and also to protesters

holding prayer rallies in Alabama. That's next week on the programme. Interesting features, those, I can tell you. And I'm also delighted to say that also next week, Sunita Elaine will be on the programme, the first black woman to be made master of an Oxbridge College. She's talking to Women's Hour next

week. And on Friday, Jenny is going to be talking, and I'll certainly be listening, to the GCHQ whistleblower, Catherine Gunn. Her story has been told in a new film, Official Secrets, which stars Keira Knightley. So Catherine Gunn on Woman's Hour this time next week. Now with me, Afun Mifeto, the executive editor and beauty director of Glamour magazine. Welcome to the programme. Thank you for having me. Well, you are the author of Palette, the beauty Bible for women of colour, which appropriately is genuinely a beautiful book. So it's just a lovely chunky thing to have.

It looks exquisite. There have been books of a similar nature, but not directed at women of colour. There was a real gap in the market here, wasn't there? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I wrote this book not because I really wanted to write a beauty book, but really because I felt that this was an audience that had been invisible for so long to the beauty industry. It's a, you know, a marginalised demographic in many ways that have been completely ignored and invisible, but yet they spend a lot of money on beauty and love beauty. So I felt that this was a time to redress the balance and for them to have

something that speaks to them. So on the face of it, this is a book about beauty, but actually it's not. It's really about representation, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I've been a beauty journalist for quite a long time. And I've always been asked, Oh, when are you going to write a book about beauty? And I've always thought, No, I'm never going to write a book about beauty. I'm not really interested in writing a book about beauty. But I wrote this, not because I wanted to write about beauty, but because I wanted to tackle the issues, which I felt are still issues within the beauty industry, not really being inclusive and not having a mantra that's about beauty for all. Now, we'll talk about the book, I promise, but I really want to know more about you and about your life experience. You were born in Britain. You did spend time in Nigeria. I did indeed.

And it was while you were there that you noticed that you weren't noticed, I guess would be one way of putting it. Well, no, it wasn't so much that. I think it was while I was there, I've always talked about this issue of blackness. In Nigeria, the issue of blackness doesn't really come up because it's not an issue because then, you know, everyone's black. So the colour of your skin is not really a conversation point.

What was, you know, what we talked about there was completely different, you know, people are obsessed with class and politics and so on and so forth, and issues of colourism. But then when I came back to London, sort of five years later, that's when I sort of realised that, oh, race was a bit of an issue. And it was through the lens of beauty actually that I really discovered that I was different and my blackness was an issue as you know in relation to beauty and it shouldn't have been no absolutely and that's really why the book is an important part of this conversation but there were there were stories from your your childhood about we've all done it as teenagers lurking around makeup counters,

nervously trying on stuff. And that happened to you, didn't it? Oh, yes, absolutely. So I would, I talk about what I call the biscuit experience. You know, I went into a local chemist with friends of mine who were all Caucasian school friends of mine. And, you know, while everybody else is trying on lots of different products on the counter and getting very excited about their buys I couldn't find anything at all that was remotely related to my skin tone I couldn't find anything and that was a real wake-up call for me it was a moment where I thought wow okay I'm black and I'm different and I'm invisible to this industry and I don't count. And that was quite a difficult moment, I think, for a young girl.

That is a really, really hard moment. It's a really hard truth. What has changed is that the beauty industry is now targeting women of colour. But is it effectively huge white-owned conglomerates who are now realising that, frankly, here's an opportunity to make more money? I think it's a cross-section of things. I think, yes, you know, there are the conglomerates that are essentially, I mean, they're owned, a lot of them are not owned by a single person. You know, they're owned by, you know, their shareholders and there are a lot of gatekeepers there. But yes, they are predominantly white. I think we have the growth of black owned brands as well, which is great. I do know that certainly it's more difficult for women of colour to get funding for their brands, for their beauty brands. So despite that area being a huge area of growth, certainly in the US, it is also the area that gets the least funding.

So that's still a problem in that sense. I do think that how we can enable change to take place within those organisations is that certainly the conglomerates that are mainly sort of run by a lot of, I would say a lot of white men in suits. I think we need to have them hiring many more sort of diverse, you know, have a much more diverse workforce because at the moment that's not happening. So I think that it's all fine and it's great having, you know, more, you know, darker skin models in campaigns and so on and so forth, or even, you know, in

fashion on the catwalk. But I always think who is making the decisions? Who are the people who have the power who are making those decisions? They're in the positions of authority that needs to change. So Palette is essentially your guide to the products you recommend. Yes. And there's a whole range of different products. just talk us through some of the options in here oh goodness me so it covers i mean i think there are nearly 200 products in here it covers skincare it covers hair and it covers makeup i mean of course you know there are so many more products and if we were going to include absolutely everything i mean this book would just never be published i'd be writing it forever because new things come up all the time.

But I think there are lots of different options here. I looked at price points. I was going to pick at you and I'm obviously going to have a go at you. That's what I'm here for. There's a lot of expensive stuff in here. There is. But I think that some of the expensive things that are in there, well, all the expensive things that are in there well all the expensive things that are in there i think are worth spending money on well that's what i was going to ask you there are actually a lot of really inexpensive brands in there i don't know if i'm allowed to mention the brands as long as you mention a selection you're fine yes sure

so you know you have the ordinary i mean there's barely anything in the ordinary that is over 10 pounds and it's a brilliant, brilliant brand. I recommend that all the time. Can you get that everywhere? Yes, that's you can get it online, you can get it in stores. Beauty Pie is incredible. It's incredible quality, but it's very, very inexpensive. And you know, they have great things across skincare and makeup, Paula's Choice, Inkey List, Vichy, there's some Revlon bits there, Bourgeois, Sleek, Indeed Labs. There are quite a few brands in there that are not expensive at all. And even a lot of most of the brands, I don't think they're sort of, they're rarely any brands that are sort

of three figures. Okay, three figures. Yes, there are some brands that are three figures, but you know, they're not the majority in here. Just as if you are spending a load of money, let's say on a foundation, is there any guarantee that it's actually going to look better on you than one that does cost a tenner? No, not necessarily. I think it's all about formulation. That's really nothing to do with price. That's about formulation. That's about quality and finding something that works on your skin. So I don't necessarily think that price should be an indicator of whether something's good or not. It's about formulation. I will say about foundations, however, that the high street do have foundations that cover a lot of skin tones and you know skin colors and so on the problem is shelf space so you go into a store you go into a retailer who i know as a journalist because they've landed on my desk i know that a particular brand has lots of foundations but you go into a

retailer and you can't find them because they will only stock a certain number of colors because of shelf space which for me doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't make any sense. But would it depend on their geographical location, would they think? Sometimes, which also doesn't make any sense to me because, you know, I've had brands not just here, but, you know, in the States who have said that, you know, department stores will only stock their products in certain ethnic areas, which I think is ridiculous because, you know, we are so diverse. And, you know, like I say to everyone, black people are everywhere, you know, darker skinned people are everywhere. They're not just in a particular place. And to think that you only

need to stock certain colours in certain areas, I just think it's a little bit backward. Okay. Well, that's interesting. Brief word on Glamour, because you work for Glamour. Yes, I do. I love magazines. They were such a big part of my adolescence. And they continue to be a big part of my life. Is Glamour going to be all right? Is it doing okay?

Oh, absolutely. Glamour is doing absolutely brilliantly. I mean, it's changed in the sense that it is now a digital title and we have two issues out every year, you know, one autumn, winter and another one spring, summer. We just had one out with Victoria Beckham on the cover.

She gave us an exclusive interview and exclusive insight into her new brand, her new beauty brand. And we did a shoot with her and so on and so forth. But, you know, we are now on the digital. It's a digital brand, but it's a huge brand. And we're doing lots of really incredible things.

And there's so much growth with Glamour. I think it's a watch this space brand. There's so much going on with it. Thank you very much. Glamour is certainly not on its last anything. Absolutely not. Okay, good to know. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Fumifeto, executive editor and beauty director of Glamour. So she's completely objective about Glamour-ish. And her book is Palette, the Beauty Bible for Women of Colour. Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now let's talk to Johanna Gustafsson, international bestselling author.

Welcome to the programme, Johanna. Thank you. You're French. I am. You live in London. I do. Your husband is also here. Matthias Matthias. Yes, Matthias. Matthias. You live in London. I do. Your husband is also here. Matthias, Matthias.

Yes, Matthias. Matthias. Welcome, Matthias. Matthias is Swedish. Yes. Right. And you met at a party in London, Matthias. Is that right?

We did, yes. Yeah. Okay. People are wondering why you're both here. I'm about to explain. This is because your true life story of trying to conceive has been part of the inspiration for your latest thriller, Johanna. You've written very successful thrillers in the past. This is the third book in a series.

Indeed it is. Blood Song is the third book in the Roy and Castell series. Now published, I think, in 20 countries and soon to be a series a tv series um and yes that book you know i think that we get more confident um as we get writing and for the third book i was pregnant with my twin actually i was trying to get pregnant with my twins i think we will come to that yeah and um i thought that that was the perfect way to talk about our path, to make it public in a way that people could identify, people could be more open about it. Well, let's go back a little bit then. You met and you wanted to have children.

Yes, I did. And what happened? So basically, we thought that I was the one having the problem because, you know, that's what we think. We think that most of the time it's a woman. And actually, I was not. It was Mathias who could not have any children and who was sterile. So that was a huge shock. And the way we learned it as well by a private clinic here in London was very violent.

And the words used were very violent over the phone. Mathias, what did they say? Well, I mean, we just did a test and they told me that I was sterile. So there was basically a door closed in that regard. So there was completely unexpected. And it was over the phone, you know. And we didn't quite understand when they told us so matthias were like sorry i don't understand what do you mean because the the the word they

use where there is no sperm in your sperm over the phone and then we said sorry but but what do you mean well there are no swimmers in your pool there are no swimmers in your pool imagine that i can't actually and it must's not, it cannot be. Well, it clearly wasn't easy for anybody to hear. Why is it, I wonder then, Matthias, I don't think I've ever spoken to a man in this position before, actually, knowingly. Why is it so difficult for men?

I'm not in any way saying it's easy for women, by the way, but if it is the man in this situation, why do you think it's so difficult i think it's i think it's is the private of private things and i think people try to want to sort of maybe it's a uh some sort of uh you know some people fears of reflection of the masculinity or you know what sort of man they are and so forth um You know, it's all about the conception. I think that, you know, it's something that I think in society, I think we need to come to terms with that more

because more and more this is a problem that is becoming more and more common, you know, both for women and for men. Did you talk to your friends about it? Did your friends acknowledge what was happening? Yes, you know, when this happened I mean, Jan and I sat down and we sort of agreed okay, well, either we keep it to ourselves or we share it

and we just felt we had to talk to our friends about it so we felt sort of, okay, well, we speak to our closest friends and then of course we have some friends overseas that you may not see regularly. So it's not the sort of conversation you just, you know, start talking about on the phone. It feels like it's something that you need to be face-to-face perhaps because it's sort of a private conversation.

And also people have their own lives so they're not necessarily they wouldn't necessarily be thinking about that unless you tell them You came to a decision that you would have fertility treatment which by no means, that isn't easy

either is it, going through the treatment isn't easy No and that was one of the practical reasons why i come from a familial psychologist so secret we know that is hard to bear and we don't do that we open about it but i said to matthias at the time my first book was coming out block 46 and i had to travel a bit and you need to fit in the fertility treatments validity treatments are very time consuming they make you you sick. And you, if you have, for example, for the twins, I had 27 injections a week. 27? Yes, that I had to perform myself.

And I was, my publisher is here, Karen Sullivan, or Renda Books. And she, I had to tell her, Karen, I'm sorry, but at seven exactly, before we're going to talk about my book, I have to go to the toilet to do two injections. Because this is at the time, you know, and I was touring doing that, basically. So it's very heavy on the body. Not really on the mind for me,

because once I made that decision, it was just, I had to do it. But, Matt, it's not easy for you to see Johanna going through all this. Yeah, very different. I mean, it's the same sort of concept as when a woman gives birth. As a man, you can just really be supportive and be there. And in this case, it's even worse, because obviously you see the amount of, you know,

the very very intensive treatment that you have to go through and everything all you can do is really offer support and encouragement and and you know and it's very important in the fertility treatment that you you keep a very very relaxed mind yeah you you feel good and so you try to sort of focus on those things it just doesn't sound. It sounds the absolute opposite of relaxing this whole business. You know what we did? We did something actually funny that we put, I had notes in each cupboard at home when I was opening.

There was this going to be a magical day and this is just your baby that you're conceiving. And he made me smile. And we brought very funny things left and right that I was looking at when I was injecting. You know, trying to make it fun, basically. Yes, I thought. But it was not. Did it work? very funny things left and right that I was looking at when I was injecting or you know trying to make it fun basically yes but it was not did it work it worked did it well it clearly worked we know it works you've got three children we should say um but choosing the sperm donor yeah

that is that something you did you do it together yes yes. Yes. How? We did everything together. Yes. We really did. It was very important. You know, it's a very, it's something that I really talk in detail in Bloodsong, this industry, because it's really an industry. Oh, yes. And you go online and it's a catalogue. Okay. So you feel that you're choosing jam when you're choosing your children DNA, basically, which is which is a vocabulary we don't like to use DNA, because it's hard to think that half of the DNA is unknown in a way. And you basically what we did is that those clinics, which are online to the sperm clinic, you choose basically that the how do you call that, the different categories. So blue eyes and tall.

It's that specific, isn't it? Very specific. Because what you want is you want someone who would look as closely as you can of your husband or your partner or your girlfriend, whoever. Mathieu, what was that like for you to sit there and do this? Yeah, I mean, it's very surreal and it's very sort of commoditized. So you try to, you know, we always took the approach, okay, let's try to just to get through this process and do it, not place too much importance to it.

You know, you're trying to look at the stats and, you know, okay, well, this is a good fit. And then you sort of select it, you click and you move on, sort of. And you don't, you know, you're aware of the choices you make, but then you don't place too much importance to it. But in this country, the law is such that, well, you explained, Johanna, what happens in in the future could happen what what can happen but that's that's why we chose actually to do it here is that the donors in this country have to be known it's forbidden for them to be unknown which means that when your children are adults they can go to look for their janitor they can meet that person and I'm just going to insist on something here which is very

important for all people being like us and even adopting parents is that we they're not fathering those they're not fathers the father is matthias here well the father is the person who's there at three in the morning exactly like we were last night okay it's like a two-year-old so this is the janitor the the donor. So they can meet the donor and you have, we part of a wonderful association, which is called DC Network. The two founders are parents like us who could not conceive. And they explained that to us. They said, you know, when your child will meet,

will want maybe to meet the donor, you will have had 18 years of closeness and love and experiences. So you will mean less and it will be easier for you. But that is a law here and it's not in France and it's changing now. I was talking to a lawyer just yesterday about that. They're about to change. It's a 1994 law and it's about to change now. Yeah. Johanna and Matthias and the book is called Blood Song and Maddy was listening in Australia hello Maddy she says the couple talking about IVF are so honest about the industrialization surrounding it the injections the business the unrelenting grind of

the whole process so many of my friends marriages have broken up because of IVF. Another listener on Twitter says, Brilliant to hear a heterosexual couple talking about their experience of using donor sperm to create their family. Hashtag not the only ones. And actually to that tweeter, you're right, we don't actually hear about this very often. And as I pointed out, it is rare to hear from a man, Matthias in this case, who is going to talk about their own infertility. The assumption as Johanna said at the beginning there is that it is the fault so-called and I'm using speech marks of the woman although actually there's a pretty even split between the woman, the man and just unexplained infertility.

This is an interesting email from a listener who says, listening to your piece with Johanna and her partner brought back some dark memories of the 1980s and attitudes then to male infertility. At that time, we had to go private. It was expensive, but most practitioners were simply brusque about my male infertility. What was worse was the attitude of friends and colleagues. My boss's sympathetic comment was just to smirk and say, you're firing blanks then. Since then, hearing many other negative comments,

I've hardly ever been able to mention my infertility to friends or family. It's good to see that after years of, well, cruel attitudes towards it, it's now being treated with some sympathy, but a long way to go. I'd like to stay anonymous, I'm afraid. Well, to that listener, I'm sorry you had such a tough time. It is dreadful that people just made moronic comments like, you're boss. And this is an email about the conversation I had with Funmi Feto

about her book, Pallet. I'm an older woman of colour and I absolutely love this. My bugbear is the free gifts from expensive brands, which are often of no use to me at all. The colours are too light and I don't need anything which gives a healthy bronzing effect. I live in so-called multicultural Bristol, so I thought it might be helpful to raise this at the department store counter of a rather posh brand. The orange-faced lady serving just shrugged and frankly she lost a sale. In fact I think it's the posh brands which need to catch up the most.

That's from Kim. Thank you for that Kim. This is another anonymous email about our item on abuse and older people. I'd be grateful if you could also mention the difficulties that relatives have when their older family members with dementia, psychosis and delusions turn on those who want to care for them and then begin to accuse them of terrible behaviour. It is very difficult to explain to others without betraying confidences and there's also the dilemma of family loyalty meaning that even long-standing family friends can be deceived, having only the older person's side of the story. My wonderful mother became verbally aggressive, emotionally manipulative, and towards the end, physically violent. She pushed and shoved me several times and hit me once with a shoe. She passed away very recently, and I'm trying really hard to forget the

last couple of years and remember the wonderful mother she was before her illness took hold. That does sound terrible for you and I'm sure for your mum as well actually but thank you for the email. And on to pensions I did read out a couple of emails that we'd had in in the last 24 hours or so. This listener is called Hazel. She says for the first time in my life now I suppose I am truly equal to a man. Born in 1954 when rationing was still a reality, I've had to wait to the same age to retire at 65 plus nine months. But things were very different. And she takes us back, Hazel, to her life experience at school. This is what really happened at school. Boys sat in front of us girls to aid their learning. They were the breadwinners.

The 11 plus exam was, of course, weighted to allow more boys to pass than girls, so more boys could go to grammar school. That's also true. I know that's something that's been discussed on Women's Hour in the past. I left school before the Equal Pay Act had been passed. I wasn't able to join the pension scheme until I worked over 18 hours a week, but I had to work part-time because my son was around then. So this inequality, stroke equality, has gone on throughout Hazel's life. And I think it's fair to say she feels she suffered unduly. And the truth is, Hazel, you're right. I'm not sure what else anybody can say about that other than that. Thank you very much for that. And thanks for listening.

And the programme, of course, tomorrow is our Highlights of the Week session at two minutes past four. And then we're back live two minutes past ten on Monday. Lauren O'Byrne here, and I'm calling all music lovers and in particular Radiohead fans, because on Desert Island Discs, I'm casting away Tom York. He talks to me about how he discovered music, his love of breaking things, what he felt about his posh school and how he greeted the band's initial success. He also shares the life advice

REM's Michael Stipe gave him and describes his personal ambitions for the future. And of course, he'll be explaining the reasons why he has chosen each of the eight sensational tracks he wants to take to the desert island. Do not miss it. Search for Desert Island Discs, Tom York in BBC Sounds and subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.