Woman's Hour - Gail Bradbrook: co-founder of Extinction Rebellion

Episode Date: December 8, 2020

Extinction Rebellion has used civil disobedience to put the climate crisis firmly at the top of the news agenda. It’s also attracted women and whole families to take to the streets to protest for the first time in their lives. Gail Bradbrook, the co-founder of XR and one of the women on this year’s Woman’s Hour Power List, joins Jane to talk about the support for – and criticisms of – the use of protest to bring about systemic change in the name of the planet.Are men beginning to turn to cosmetics to improve their appearance in the same way women use them? According to Danny Gray, who created the WarPaint make-up range, says they are. He’s seen a huge increase in interest from men, which he partly puts down to the amount of time they’ve spent looking at themselves on Zoom. He discusses this trend, and the make-up artist, Lisa Eldridge, author of 'Face Paint; the History of Make-Up', explains the background behind men and their use of cosmetics.It’s time to end the idea that being in a couple is the superior way to live, according to a new book, 'The Tenacity of the Couple-Norm'. The couple-norm is the ubiquitous idea that being in a couple is the normal, natural and better way of living. It’s such a powerful norm that being in a couple is almost synonymous with being a successful adult. The authors – academics from 4 different countries - argue that, amidst enormous transformations in our ideas about family life and relationships in past decades, this norm has remained largely unchallenged and unchanged, making life difficult for anyone who departs from it. The lead author, Professor Sasha Roseneil, joins Jane.Gail Newsham features in the latest series of The Game Changers podcast which showcases trailblazing women in sport. Gail Newsham has spent the last three decades researching and sharing the story of the Dick, Kerr Ladies. One hundred years ago over 50,000 turned out to watch them play a match. She explains why the team was so important in the history of women’s football.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Gail Bradbrook Interviewed Guest: Lisa Eldridge Interviewed Guest: Danny Gray Interviewed Guest: Professor Sasha Roseneil Interviewed Guest: Gail Newsham

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's Tuesday the 8th of December 2020 and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hi there, good morning. On the programme today, are you in a couple? Do you regard that actually as the norm? Is it the only way to live? Is it the best way to live?

Coupledom explored on Woman's Hour this morning. We're going to be asking whether it really is the norm everywhere in the world or just about. Is makeup for men growing in popularity? If so, why? And we're approaching the centenary of a really significant sporting anniversary, certainly in terms of women's sport. On Boxing Day of this year, it will be 100 years since the Dick Kerr ladies played in front of 53,000 people at Goodison Park in Liverpool. What was that game all about? And what did the FA do afterwards that put women's football back a long, long way? And in fact, we're still living with the consequences

of that decision even now, really. You can contact the programme on social media at BBC Women's Hour. You can text us too on 84844. We love hearing from you. Get involved if you fancy it during the course of the programme today. Let's start then by going back to the Women's Hour Power List of 2020, Our Planet, and talking to one of the names on that list, a significant figure, somebody who's caused, well, how can I put it, a great deal of interest and excitement. And there is no doubt that the efforts of the group she co-founded, Extinction Rebellion, has led to the climate crisis being put very firmly at the top of the agenda. She is Dr.

Gail Bradbrookok and she joins us now from her home in Stroud in Gloucestershire. Gail, hello there, good morning to you. Morning Jane. Now, just a really obvious question to start with, who are you? Well, I'm a mother of two boys and I come from Yorkshire. My dad was a coal miner. I also have a background in science. So I was a girly swat at school and I just care very deeply about the world, about the natural world and about fairness in the world as well. What kind of a teenager were you? Were you a sort of rule breaker then? No, quite the opposite. I used to go running a lot and I used to listen to my school notes plugged into my ears. And as I say, I was a girly swat actually. I got the top grades

in my year and also at university. Sorry for the immodesty, but that's the level of girly swat that I've been. No, that's perfectly all right. Own it. There's nothing wrong with that. And so the people you grew up with in Stroud, or not, it was actually Yorkshire, sorry, forgive me, wasn't it, where you grew up. Would they be surprised to see you where you are now, doing what you're doing? I don't think so, so much in that I've always cared really passionately about things. So I joined the Green Party when I was 14 and it was unusual. It had only just been launched in my hometown. And I was also involved in animal rights as a young woman.

So I've always cared about change and about fairness and equality. And what happened to you in 2016? Because I think that was when there was a big change in the way you lived your whole life, really. Just what happened then? I mean, I've been working on social change for many years and I've also been on a personal healing journey. I think the system that we live under is deeply traumatising for many of us and we all have our own individual experiences within that. And part of my path has been to work on trauma, including with psychedelic medicines, I would call them. And so I did go on a retreat. There was actually a doctor

in the room and I had to have my heart and liver scanned beforehand. It was a big deal. And I took a number of different medicines over the course of two weeks. It's the most frightening thing that I've ever done. To what end, Gail? Why do it? I had two goals in mind and you set intentions when you work with these medicines. There's lots of science, by the way, there, and also it's deeply embedded in many indigenous cultures. But I had two goals in mind. One was that I wanted, a more obvious one, that I wanted to sort of heal a tendency towards anxiety. And I felt my brain being rewired. It was an incredible experience. And if you look up my name and breaking convention, you'll hear me talking about that.

The other one was more mysterious in the place where as a scientist, I find it odd to share this. But can I just stop you there? Because you are you as a scientist I find it odd to share this but well can I just stop you there because you are you're a scientist absolutely um you you're qualified you're a rational person fundamentally utterly rational yeah so um you know there's interest in physics the physics of professor David Bohm talking about that looks at the sort of universal field and interest in science around universal consciousness. So I did make this prayer, basically requesting the universe for the codes for social change, which sounds like a crazy thing. And I'm just open minded, basically. Within a month of coming back from that retreat, I met Roger Hallam, who'd been doing studies on how things change. We had a really amazing four hour meeting and I told him he told

me exactly what I needed to know. And at the end of that meeting, he told me he'd just given me the codes for social change. And you felt that that meeting was as a result of that retreat you'd been on as a consequence of it? I mean, there was a series of events where I was also trying to start a mass tax disobedience and we were on the same new economy organizers network space and so on so yeah so you already wasn't so so mysterious but I mean who knows I just I I think I think the science of consciousness is is is mysterious and I think spirituality and science are merging in some ways these days. And it's a really interesting thing to be open about. And basically, it's about opening your heart. Well, however it happened, Extinction Rebellion came to be.

And our listeners will be very interested in it. Who funds it? Where does the money come from? A lot of it's crowdfunding. So especially when we're out on the streets, people make donations. Then there have been some institutional donors. A lot of people work as volunteers. They just work when they can, as they can. I've funded a lot of my time in Extinction Rebellion through a small amount of savings that I had. Institutional donors? Who? So we've had some money from Greenpeace and from the Children's Investment Fund Foundation. There's a list. I believe it's on our website.

So people can find out if they're interested. I wonder whether there's is there money you turn down from a donor you wouldn't approve of? We have a donations policy that's really clear. We wouldn't take money from the fossil fuel industry or from the arms industry. But on the whole, we would take money from anybody because essentially we're all corrupted and complicit in this crisis. We're not going to check whether somebody's in quotes ethical. I don't think anybody can be anybody with significant amounts of money is likely to have been fully ethical in this in the world that we live in. Sorry, is unlikely to have been fully ethical. I don't mean that they're sort of bad people.

I just mean that the fact that you can make money from money, that kind of thing is not um not necessarily gonna mean that that money's all in quotes clean if you see what i mean yeah i mean i i go i know you yourself have owned up to what owned up i mean you've got a car i've got a car but then i'm not you um you're you're not a vegetarian are you no i've been vegan in the past for sort of two years i have to say it didn't really suit my body um i don't know if i didn't eat the right things as vegetarian for 11 years. I do try and eat, you know, more of a plant-based diet, but I'm not perfect on it. And I do. And nor do you claim to be, by the way. I mean, I'm not getting at you here at all. And you've said yourself that you're not perfect and who is. Can we just get on to the stunts,

I suppose you could call it, that Extinction Rebellion do? They can be incredibly disruptive, can't they? I know there's been at least one instance of a man not being able to get to a dying parent because of disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion. Can you justify that? Yes, we are committing crimes against humanity right now. We as a human race? We as a human race, but more specifically those in power who are making decisions, who are making policy decisions and decisions about funding. carbon and we fund 15% of fossil fuel exploration with the number one organisers of tax havens across the world. This is the UK you're talking about? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we are complicit

in crimes against humanity. Johan Rockström said that half, in his estimation, he's from the Professor Rockström from Climate Impact, he said that half of the world is likely to die, in his estimation, in my children's lifetime. There's billions of people. There are countries in the global south that are going to be underwater. There are people that are dying already today, and 40,000 people die in the UK of air pollution that's exacerbated by climate change. Except, of course course there'll be people listening Gail who perhaps have been trying to get to work and have had their journey to work disrupted by the activities of groups like you. There'll be other people asking well does

Extinction Rebellion carry out stunts in countries like Russia for example? Are you active there? Yeah there are some people in Russia in in exile and obviously activists across the world, environmental activists are at great risk. There are of order 250 environmentalists that die every year across the world. So it's different in different countries. We've got farmers today in India protesting against rules that have been brought in that have been tear gassed. You know, people face great difficulty and it is disruptive. And people that step forward to make these kinds of protests are making a sacrifice, whether that's felt or seen by other people. But it has an impact on their lives.

To be clear, though, and you've said it yourself, being arrested in Britain for somebody like yourself is actually no big deal, is it really, relatively speaking? It depends what you're being arrested for. The process of being arrested for obstructing the public highway and less so. I mean, I've been arrested for breaking a window at the Department for Transport because I think they're central to the bad policies, including HS2, and that's something that I've been told I could serve six months to a year in jail for. Would you be willing to do that, though? Well, I wouldn't have done the action

if I wasn't willing to take the consequences. I do think that environmental protesters should be seen as conscientious protectors, that we're not actually breaking the law because we have a defence of necessity. We're doing what's necessary to raise the alarm. And obviously, people have been protesting in many ways for many years, writing to MPs and going on protests, and they weren't effective. Unfortunately, this kind of protest is effective. And that's why you have the vote.

Well, some people would say that actually, Gail, you have brought about change. Now it's pretty mainstream, a belief in climate change and a desire to do something about it. Do you not have any faith in the government talking about its pledges, for example? Four billion pounds of new money, we're told, towards this cause. Yeah, it's embarrassing. What's embarrassing? Four billion pounds in the face of an existential threat to the world, in the face of, you know, people like Professor Kevin Anderson saying we're heading for four degrees of warming, so does the government's climate change committee. And they've said that that's widely accepted to be the time when civilisation will collapse. £4 billion, you know.

At the same time, £170 billion on HS2 that's deforesting the UK. It's an airport shuttle service to expand flights and you've got £27.5 billion on new roads. You've got £10 billion on bailouts of polluting companies. You've got fossil fuel subsidies with the biggest subsidized in the uk in europe we're so we're spending so much more on destruction we need to just simply stop doing stupid things that's the sort of immediate thing that we can do thank you very much dr gail bradbrook thank you um that was dr gail bradbrook one of the co-founders of

extinction rebellion stop doing stupid things, was the, that's her belief anyway, of course. Some would say that we need HS2 for a string of reasons. You can get involved. We are on social media at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can text the programme 84844. That's how you make contact this morning. Now, you might well have heard that makeup for men is getting more popular. I say that as though men have never worn makeup, but in fact, men have worn makeup. And some would say, in fact, it was incredibly popular hundreds of years ago, went out of fashion, might be coming back now. Danny Gray is creator of the War Paint range of makeup for men. And

we're also joined by the makeup artist Lisa Eldridge author of Face Paint the story of makeup. Welcome to you both. Danny good morning to you first of all. Morning. Now why did you feel a sort of compulsion to set up this brand Warpaint? Good question so I actually suffer with something called body dysmorphia so I effectively obsess about the way I look which is a mental illness and the reason I do that is because when I was 12 years old I was bullied because my appearance my ears were sort of right angles to my head. So growing up from my teenage years I the way I look, which is a mental illness. And the reason I do that is because when I was 12 years old, I was bullied because my appearance, my ears were sort of right angles to my head. So growing up from my teenage years,

I would get spots, not necessarily acne, but for me, that was a massive issue. So I turned to my sister, she gave me a bit of concealer and I honestly couldn't believe the impact on what a product could do. And it gave me so much confidence, but growing up for 20 years, I've been wearing it every single day.

But for me me I couldn't really find a brand that I felt related to me as a man something like I could go into a store and feel confident in buying yeah and then for the education for me I you know I thought women can don't want to over complicate it but I just would use it in a very simple way so I never thought there was a brand out there that related to me so I wanted to create one and your use of concealer as a young lad it was it was a shield effectively there that related to me, so I wanted to create one. And your use of concealer as a young lad, it was a shield, effectively. It just made you feel better about yourself and led you to leading a more constructive life?

Simple as that? 100%. I'm just a massive believer in guys being able to use tools, regardless of what they are, that make you feel better. So I've had a hair transplant. I didn't really need one, but because my body's small for you, that option was there for me. I took it, and it really made me feel better because my body's small for you, that option was there for me.

I took it and it really made me feel better. So it's just about using tools. Just to be clear, then the body dysmorphia is still with you. That's not going away. Definitely. But I'm learning to manage it a lot better now. But, you know, growing up for teenagers, it was it was a massive thing for me. So a bit of makeup on this, you really helped me deal with it. It's quite difficult, actually, to find out how much the market in terms of men's makeup is worth in the UK but we know things are changing have you

got any idea how much it might be worth? Yeah there's a lot of stats been flying about at the minute because it is growing very very quickly but there was a stat last year about worldwide it's four billion currently and estimated to grow substantially over the next five years I don't think anyone really knows, because I think we're at a tipping point now where two years ago when I founded the brand, no one talked about men's makeup at all. And then since then, we've been on like 500 press articles.

I've been on radio shows like this, which never happened before. So I just think we'll be at a tipping point where eventually we'll be, well, that's okay. If guys want to use it, then use it. Yeah, I wouldn't normally mention sexuality, but you happen to be straight. I am, yes. I mean, am I wrong to mention it, then use it. Yeah, I wouldn't normally mention sexuality, but you happen to be straight. I am, yes. I mean, am I wrong to mention it?

Is it relevant, you tell me? I think it is relevant, but, you know, I just think that we've got a huge amount of gay customers and I think all I'm trying to say, there were probably straight guys out there before who would never even think about trying make-up because of a stigma attached to it and they would never get to see the benefit of it.

So, yeah, we're just trying to open up to everyone and just say, whoever you are, regardless of sexuality, just use it if it makes you feel better. Yeah. I mean, the name is quite war paint. I mean, there is. Well, you know what I'm saying? Well, yeah. Do you know, actually, that came about because I watched a TV program about eight years ago. And a woman actually said, I'm going to put more war paint on before I go out. It's been synonymous for women using it. And I was like, that's the name. Yeah.

Lisa, let's go back to the time when I remember New Romantics, for example. I guess that was the first time watching Top of the Pops, seeing men in makeup that I thought, oh, crikey, I didn't know that could happen. But actually, I just didn't know my history because it happened years and years ago. Oh, yeah.

I mean, globally, men have been wearing makeup for thousands of years for so many different reasons, ritualistic purposes, religion, like you say, war paint to scare the opposition. So many reasons. And self-expression. And I think if we, most people think of the ancient Egyptians as being the sort of first major makeup moment for men. And it was men, women, children, everyone wore makeup. And it wasn't a divisive thing, the way it really is now. In fact, you know, it still is. And there was a joy in that it wasn't only used for protecting the eyes and the body. But there's

evidence of trends of provenance of products, you know, getting your coal from a certain place, and there was a joy in it. And was a self-expressive thing to do and I think we also think very much in Europe of the 18th century and the Georgian period when everyone wore makeup. Well hang on did everyone or was it just wealthy people? It was mainly wealthy people absolutely but there was definitely a change happening and regular people could get access to very basic versions of makeup and powder and rouge and things like that, which weren't that expensive. So there's definitely a change happening. But unfortunately for men, that was almost the beginning of the end for makeup because post French Revolution and to a certain extent American Revolution, makeup was out after that. Because it was associated with the ancien regime. and to a certain extent American Revolution, make-up was out after that for men.

Because it was associated with... The Ancien Regime. It was considered frivolous, not manly anymore, and that was the end of make-up, in Europe anyway. Yeah, it is extraordinary. We're going on later in the programme to talk about women playing football, which was effectively made complicated and difficult by the authorities. Were you aware, did you think people of your generation, Danny,

knew that, in fact, men always used to wear make-up once? It was just not an issue at all? Yeah, I think, as you've touched on, I don't even think men stopped wearing make-up to a point. There's so many customers who come to us now and saying, you know, I stole my behalf, I've tried it. And so I just think it's been, if you look back 60 years ago, when makeup started to become absolutely massive,

the likes of MAC and everyone, all they promoted it to was women. You know, glamorous. They dressed up at home and men went to work. And I think that was just ingrained in everyone. And if you look at it now, the amount of customers coming to us saying, well, thank you, because I've been doing it behind my mate's back. And now you're opening up a world that I can do it comfortably. So it's not like we're creating men's makeup it's just letting guys feel comfortable to

do it but how wide is your range um is it just concealer or do you go have you got i don't know stuff for contouring and all that sort of thing no so we we use real simple products in simple ways so it's tinted moisturizers foundation concealer some powders but we don't do any lipsticks or eyeliner but not saying why not we're not saying main can't it's just we a lot of guys who come onto our website it's probably the first time they've ever thought about using makeup so if we're not with someone we'll scare them away but sometimes that'd be very complicated like contouring where we just say about simple products using simple way to even out your skin to give you confidence and that's a great way to get them on not saying we won't go into lipstick or eyeliner but in a minute that's what we offer and is it the zoom effect yeah i look someone said it

to me the other day actually i didn't really think about it to be honest but now with zoom i didn't even think about it but you're looking at yourself as much as anyone else and i think that's had a massive impact on people actually thinking oh actually i might want to try something to give me a bit more confidence especially with with. So I do think that's had an impact. Well, do you welcome all this, Lisa? The fact that, I mean, should women welcome men wearing makeup? Does it suggest progress for all of us? Or does it mean that men are now feeling as rotten about their appearances as perhaps women have always been encouraged to feel?

I don't really want Danny or anyone else really to feel they have to wear makeup. I think what's nice about this moment now in history is that for the first time I think for women and men there is the opportunity of choice if you think back there's always been either one look that we have to all follow or there's been there's you know it's always been very very divisive and I think that social media has definitely helped because you're able to almost find your tribe. If you want to cover a spot as a teenage boy, like you say, you can find other boys who do it. Maybe they've made a tutorial, you know, and it makes you feel relaxed and comfortable.

But the main thing is that there needs to be choice for men and women. Makeup is there. It can be a tool that can just help you to feel more confident just to cover an under eye, you know, dark circle and a spot. Or it can be something to be very self expressive with and really, you know, create looks or don't use it at all. You know, there should be those options. Yeah. I mean, everyone should feel they don't have to use it. Absolutely. I mean, I just wonder, I can't ask you, Lisa, to speak for all womankind, but do you think women welcome men caring more about their appearance? I think probably they do if it's a case of, you know, this word self-care, whatever that means,

but if it means looking after your skin and being able to embrace how you feel and if you can use... I think that's such a brilliant example to say women have been able to cover a spot, you know, for such a long time. And I think if that's something that will help men, why not? And I think that as a woman, I don't mind it. You know, I'm absolutely okay with it. Do you know, can I just, on that point, what you mentioned earlier,

so you're saying about men now caring about their appearance. Men have always cared about their appearance to some extent. So it's not new just because we're saying you can use makeup now. All of a sudden they're going to think, oh, I better look how I feel. I think men have always been worried about having acne spots, dark under eyes. They've just effectively not been able to do anything about it. They haven't been allowed to. Yes, let's just give men a choice and let them decide if they want to use it or not.

I think that's really interesting. Well, I'm going to put it out to the listeners. Yeah, choice is everything. Choice is everything. Thank you both very much there are three of us in the room which is a wonderful rarity in 2020 we're so far apart it's ridiculous. I'm the other side of the room. Yeah but you're there Danny. Thank you. Thank you very much. Really nice to

meet you. Thank you very much. Thank you Lisa. Thank you very much for coming in. 84844 if you want to make a comment about that. Called you and yours it's with Sam Fenwick today around about a quarter past 12 here on Radio 4. Today asking, how has COVID-19 affected student life? If this is you, 03700100444, if you want to get involved in the live phone-in on Radio 4, a quarter past 12 today. Tomorrow, Andrea Catherwood will be here talking about shyness.

And she's got an expert with her, Nadia Fainer, getting advice for parenting a shy child. Again, you can email your question for Nadia via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour. Now, last week, the High Court ruled it was unlikely that children under 16 with gender dysphoria could give informed consent to taking puberty blockers. On Thursday, I'm going to be talking to two mothers. One has a child desperate to take puberty blockers and the family support that child in that. The other mother is concerned that her child is vulnerable and not able to give consent. Really interesting interviews and you can hear those on Women's Hour on Thursday. Now let's talk about coupledom. Academics from four different European countries have got together to explore the notion that living as part of a couple is indeed the norm

and possibly still the ideal. The lead author is Professor Sasha Roseneill, Professor of Interdisciplinary Social Science and Dean of the Faculty of Social and Historical Sciences at UCL. Sasha, good morning to you. Good morning. This is absolutely fascinating. You have looked at four countries. They are the UK, Bulgaria, Portugal and Norway. Now, why those four countries? That's a good question. So we wanted to make sure that we covered Europe in its diversity. So that meant choosing a country from the former communist bloc. I chose Bulgaria basically because I had a fantastic PhD student, Maria Stoileva, who I thought would be really good to work on the project. I wanted a Scandinavian or Nordic welfare state. And Norway was the country because I actually had a part time job in Norway at the time.

I love the practical reasons for all this. There's always a practicality to doing research yeah um but you know there is there's there's something about the nordic the nordic system that meant we had to have a nordic uh welfare state included i wanted a southern european catholic um former dictatorship um state so that was a choice between portugal spain italy chose portugal again i had a fantastic phd student from port, Ana Cristina Santos. So Portugal was the country and then the UK because obviously I'm based in the UK. So much has changed. I mean, the last conversation we had, for example, illustrates that.

But still, it would seem globally people are focused on coupledom. Now, why do you think that is? Yes, you're right. A huge amount has changed. And that was what we found in our research. Over the last 40 years, there have been really, really significant changes in intimate citizenship, as we call it, in the ways in which people live their intimate lives and the laws and policies that surround intimate life. So we've seen processes of equalization between men and women or depatriarchalization. So the kind of the differences and the power differences between men and women have been diminished. There have been really significant processes of liberalization. So divorce has become much more easy to access. Same sex sexuality has been decriminalized.

There's been a huge pluralization in how people there's a but coming there lives there is a but absolutely says all these changes but amidst those changes what's become ever clearer is that the couple remains at the kind of heart of what is expected of adults it's what what is seen to be a good, intimate life. Okay, let me just bring in the listeners. Here's one who says, I'm 28. I'm exploring polyamory with a new partner I love very much. I know that a person can love more than one person at a time. And I don't want anything more from my partner. So I don't care what else he has to give someone else. But we are taught that monogamy is the highest form of love and respect and security,

and it can be very painful to let that go. That's one experience. Another listener says, I have been married to the same man for 50 years, so coupledom does seem normal to me. However, we didn't live together before we were married, and although we live together now, there have been long periods when we haven't lived together during our marriage. When we were first married, I was away at college for much of the year. Then soon after our silver wedding, I was working at a boarding school and

away for much of that year. And that's interesting. That's just a slice of what you might call a normal life. But the idea of two people heterosexually living together without incident, without pause for 50 years isn't really the norm at all, is it, Sasha? It isn't anymore. I mean, the majority of the majority of people in all four of the countries we looked at, adults do live in a couple-based household, but it's an increasingly marginal majority. And if you look at people across their lifetimes, they spend increasing amounts of their time outside couples. So, you know, people are coupling later. Their couple relationships are less stable. They're choosing to do different things within the couple. So as the person you were just talking about suggested, more and more people actually have time living apart from the person that they're part of a couple with, you know, because of work, because of kind of other demands in their lives. Often

when they've recoupled after a previously broken relationship, they don't want to merge households. So living apart relationships are increasingly common. So people are living coupledom in increasingly diverse ways, as well as more and more people living outside the kind of standard conventional couple. Yes. Another listener says, my husband and I have been married for 31 years. There's a 12-year age difference between us. And we're from two different countries. Often we're apart for six to eight months due to our work, but we've survived. However, we do get snide comments over the years from friends trying to work out our so-called unconventional relationship. Well, that's one experience. You also get people who don't understand people who aren't in couples, Sasha,

and feel somewhat, well, threatened by it? What do you think? Yes, and I think we've seen that quite a lot during the pandemic, that there's been kind of concern expressed for people who don't have a couple, you know, are not part of a couple, aren't living with someone. Sometimes pity. And I mean, you know, I think it has been particularly difficult for people who are living alone during the pandemic. You know, loneliness and isolation has been intensified. But I think, you know, our interviews, we interviewed people across the four countries, did really long biographical interviews with them. And there was a lot of experience of shame for people who were living outside the conventional couple. Do you think shame is not too strong a word then? Real shame?

It really surprised us. You know, we thought that that would have changed, but we were very struck by the shame that... I mean, not everyone, absolutely not everyone, but there were many stories that we were told of people experiencing quite profound shame about their relationships ending, about divorce, about breakdown of relationships. And sometimes about not having been able to find a stable couple relationship. It wasn't something they talked about widely.

You know, no one really wants to admit to it. But we were really struck by that. We didn't realize. We certainly never expected to write a book about the couple norm when we were doing this research. We didn't realise really quite how strong the couple norm still is and how difficult it can be to live outside it. to couple up with someone with whom they have never been in any kind of sexual relationship. I was going to say just a friend, but, you know, friendship's pretty important. And they are living in that way. That seemed to be something that was happening more often than we might have thought. Yes, indeed. I mean, we found, you know, people doing this in several of the countries. So in the UK, we talked to one woman who, in her 40s,

who'd had a number of significant relationships. But, you know, each of them had ended for different reasons. And she got to the point in her life where she said, I'm not seeking, you know, if another relationship happens, that's fine. I'm not going out to, you know, intensively look for it. And what she was doing was saying that she had a really close friendship with a woman, and she wanted to put this friendship at the centre of her life. And they were talking about whether they should have a civil partnership as a way of ensuring that if one of them died, they could leave their stuff to each other, as a way of ensuring they could get access to each other in hospital if one of them was sick, really to try and get access to the same sort of benefits that

members of a conventional sex-based couple uh could have but is that not is that not more likely in a country like the uk i don't know perhaps i'm being what's that british exceptionalism that term um no it no because we also found so we interviewed a woman in Portugal similar sort of age in Lisbon and she had quite a similar trajectory and what she had done was she had set up home with her best gay male friend and they rather jokingly talked about each other as husband and wife they didn't have a sexual relationship wasn't a romantic relationship but it was a really important relationship so they were forming sort of different types of couple. I think that also speaks to how there is something quite compelling about the intimate relationship of two people, whether it's based on sex and romance or

not. So they saw themselves as being quite unconventional, but they were forming different types of couple, both of them. Yeah, just really, really briefly, do you think you will be writing the same book 50 years from now? No, I don't think so. I think everything in intimate life is changing. There's so much that has changed in the last 20 years that we wouldn't have predicted. But I do think there is, you know, having done this piece of research and really kind of looked at how law and policy and culture push people towards a couple and kind of promote the idea that coupledom is the normal and natural way of living. There's something that's maybe beyond that as well and something about what it is that provides people with a sense of security and safety. And there is something quite compelling about a close relationship with one other person that promises, you know, attachment and safety and security that perhaps people will always be seeking. Doesn't mean to say it's the only way to find it. And, you know, people do find

security in other ways. But there is something quite compelling about it. So I think a lot will have changed. But I don't think that in 50 years time, no one will be living in a couple. No. OK, well, I don't know why I'm not going to be here to find out either way. Neither will I. Are you in a couple, Sasha? We need to nail this one down. I am. Yes. Yeah. And did it make you think about that relationship? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've always thought about it.

And it's I don't know whether whether it would be more or less acceptable to have written this book if you if you know, if I was single or not. But I think I think there's there's the challenge challenging the kind of centrality of the couple, nor matters for everyone, whether they're in or outside it, because we can't ever be certain our couple will last forever. And the pressure to couple keeps people in relationships that they perhaps shouldn't be in. Because it is hard to be outside a couple.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you very much, Sasha. The Tenacity of the Couple Norm is the name of that book and that was Sasha who's one of the lead authors of it. Any thoughts on that? Whether you're in a couple or not, you can let us know. Now, to that anniversary on Boxing Day,

that famous football match between the Dick Kerr ladies. They're playing a team, I think, from St. Helens. It was the year before the FA banned women from using league grounds. And Gail Newsham is someone who's really just delved into all this. She's a historian and she features in the latest series of a podcast called Game Changers about women's sport. So, Gail, tell us about that game, first of all, almost 100 years ago. Well, it was a fantastic day.

The Dick Kerr ladies were playing St Helens ladies and they set off to go. day. The Dick Kerr ladies were playing St Ellen's ladies and they set off to go. They were without the leading goal scorer Florey Redford who missed the train so they had to have a quick reshuffle of the team. Jenny Harris played up front and scored the first goal

and in the second half Alice Kell scored a hat-trick but 53,000 people turned up to watch them play that day. And that's what's so significant. This was at Goodison Park in Liverpool, and the Dick Kerr ladies were a team from where? Just remind us.

From Preston. They were formed in Preston during the First World War to raise funds for wounded soldiers. And they played their first match on Christmas Day 1917 at Preston North End Deepdale Ground. And 10,000 people came to watch them. And they raised £600 for the wounded soldiers. So that would be around £50,000 today.

So it was a wonderful thing that they'd done. And it was a great way to raise money for, you know, for the war effort. Lots of the girls had lost their own brothers. So they went from strength to strength, leading up to to strength leading up to the Goodison match in 1920 Yeah and the crowd was it mainly men or did women go along as well? No women went along to watch the matches as well

obviously there's not that many photographs available you can't make it out but women did go I have got photographs you can see the crowd and there's lots of ladies in there you know, in there as spectators. So they would have been predominantly male, of course, but women, yes, they certainly were interested. And of course, they would have been getting, you know, appreciating that women could actually go out and do that.

And why then did the FA take that famous decision afterwards? What motivated that? Well, I think the good is some matches. It's only my personal opinion, but I think that might have been a turning point when you've got 53,000 people turning up to watch a women's football match. And in 1920, the men's football league had just been expanded. They'd practically doubled in size and they got a new Division III,

so they obviously needed more spectators. And unrest was growing throughout 1921. You know, people objecting to women playing football. On the grounds that, what, it was a threat to their health? What was it? Well, that was a factor. They were saying it could cause them serious injury, affect their fertility. You know, it was too dangerous for them. The physical frame wasn't strong enough. They were strong enough during the war, of course,

to do all the manual work that they did, but that didn't seem to matter. But that was one of the factors. But, you know, as well, there was the amount of crowds that were coming along to watch them. I know some of the ladies that I interviewed right at the beginning who'd actually played before the ban, they said to me that they thought the FA had done it because they were jealous that they were getting bigger crowds

than some of the men's teams. So it was a collision course, really. And when did you get so fascinated by all this? Well, I grew up near the factory where they were formed and I'd always sort of known that there was a women's football team in Preston but never actually met anybody and way back in 1992 I decided to organise a reunion of the team for Preston Guild celebrations it's an event in Preston that only occurs once every 20 years so that was it you know I organised this reunion,

which took place at a football tournament, an international football tournament that I used to organise. But actually meeting these women and seeing the photographs that they showed me of the crowds, even in the 50s, the crowds on the touchline, I couldn't believe it because when I used to play football, nobody came to watch us and it blew me away. I'm sure it did. In a way, it's also frustrating this. We've got a great text from a listener called Roger who says, my grandad, Joe Craven, was a pro footballer who helped coach Dick Kerr ladies. His father had insisted he learned engineering before playing. He got injured pre-war. So during the war, he taught women how to build Lancaster bombers. From then, he learned there was nothing women couldn't do.

So after the war, he coached the ladies' teams as well as the men's. And actually, we should say that the Dick Kerr ladies did carry on, didn't they? I mean, after the FA banned women from using grounds, the team itself carried on. Yes, they did. They carried on. They played right through to 1965, actually. And that's what makes them special. It's the against the odds, never give up. And they are an inspiration to anybody. Just don't give up whatever. And they did that. So they were an amazing bunch of women. What is really annoying is that I know you had a big event planned to mark this centenary and Covid has had an impact on that as it's had on so many other things

Yeah we had a huge dinner planned at Preston North End to celebrate the centenary we'd got 250 people coming it was going to be the first of its kind women's football grand reunion all the forgotten generations of girls that played for England before 1993 and beyond there as well.

The FA were coming, women supporters of the Dick Kerr ladies, their families, so many people were coming. And it's just such a shame that we're not able to do this. But rising out of the ashes of that Game Changers podcast, we're going to do a raising of the glass to the Dick Kerr Ladies on Boxing Day at 3 o'clock. Great. And we're asking, you know, put it on social media,

hashtag Dick Kerr Ladies 100, hashtag Game Changers. So at least we're salvaging something that, you know, hopefully the whole country will come together, raise the glass to the Dick Kerr ladies on Boxing Day. Listen, I'll certainly join you. Just remind me,

that was the fantastic historian Gail Newsham talking there about the Dick Kerr ladies and that really important centenary of that game back at the Christmas of 1920 at Goodison Park in Liverpool. Yeah, I know it's in Everton,

but actually Everton's in Liverpool when you think about it. Or is Liverpool in Everton? I can never quite remember. But anyway, I know it's contentious. But that game was of some significance. And it was after that, of course, that the FA banned women from playing football

in league grounds. Everybody loved Gail and her enthusiasm. Thea says, I could listen to this curly Lancashire accent all day. Curly, that is a great description of it, actually. Yeah, Gail had a lovely voice, fantastic. Another listener, Di, says, my grandmother, born in 1900,

played women's football in Manchester. Yes, I don't doubt it, and I'm delighted to hear that she did. My grandmother was born in Manchester. Yes, I don't doubt it. And I'm delighted to hear that she did. My grandmother was born in 1900. I cannot imagine her hoofing a football, I have to say. She's an exceptionally regal woman, Irish royalty, according to her. I think she did make that up. Now, lots of you wanted to talk about Gail Bradbrook. We had two Gails on the programme today. Gail Bradbrook, one of the founders of Extinction Rebellion. Chloe says Jane only focused on the fact that some people's lives have been disrupted by protests and she didn't give any time to the environmental facts and figures to the

catastrophe that we're headed towards. And then she just ended the interview to move on to a topic of complete unimportance, men and makeup. Please put some proper airtime into something as important as the future survival of the planet and what people like Gail Bradbrook are doing. Well, Chloe, we have the Woman's Hour Power List, which is all about our planet. We have interviewed a string of women who are involved in tackling climate change

and doing their best to do something about sustainability and all the rest of it. So I don't think you can really get us on that one. And look, it's not my job to agree with any of the guests and certainly not somebody, let's be honest, as contentious potentially as Gail Bradbrook. Many, many people support her. Many people don't. So that's the role I'm in. And we're a mixed bag. And frankly, time is against us. I could talk to Gail for 45 minutes. Of course I could could but we have other stuff on the program I got quite worked up there this is from another listener let's bring in Lynn a retired

psychotherapist she says well done for letting Gail speak up for our futures such a shame she was cut off when she could have educated so many more people and shame it's followed up by such a shame she was cut off when she could have educated so many more people and shame it's followed up by such a trivial matter well i mean again women's has always been uh with a varied diet on the program as our listeners our regular listeners know and we do move from the incredibly important sometimes to the utterly trivial in a heartbeat but we've always done that and it's one of the things i love about the programme. Anyway, I'm sounding very defensive. Perhaps my medication needs to be tweaked. Here's somebody else. I agree with Dr. Gail Bradbrook 100%. Stop doing stupid things. Move the budget from roads and HS2 across to tackling the climate and the ecological emergency. This is from Steve. Sadly, the stunts and disruptions carried out by the

predominantly educated middle class members of Extinction Rebellion are achieving nothing in terms of appealing to the majority of the population. They are in fact having precisely the opposite effect. This at a time when we need everyone to think about the damage we're doing to our precious planet and all its inhabitants. That's the view of Steve. And what else have we got on this one? Actually, we did have somebody else saying, interesting to hear that the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion is the daughter of a coal miner that flies in the face of the stick they get for being too posh. So there you go. That is from Louise. Look, I'm always going to get varied opinion on that sort of thing, but thank you all for taking part. We do appreciate it.

Coupledom and whether or not couples are the norm. This is from Nikki. I brought up my son on my own and because of how much importance is put on couples, I think I often found myself yearning for a partner. I regret spending so much time putting such importance on that as my relationship with my son is fabulous and he's an amazing, talented and happy young man. It was a struggle at times, largely due to a lack of money more than the lack of a partner. Now I'm in a relationship and hope we'll be together forever but I feel that there is a stigma placed on single parents, on all single people, especially women, that creates a pressure they really don't need.

I'm stronger, I'm able to cope alone, I'm able to manage all aspects of my life in a way that perhaps I wouldn't be able to had I always been in a couple. Here's another email from Lucy. My lovely husband died four years ago after 30 great years together. Two years later, and quite out of the blue, a family friend and I realised that we wanted to share our lives.

So we do, but we are 260 miles apart. It's excellent. After two years, we are a firm and constant partnership, commuting between our houses. We have a few days together, then a week or two apart doing our own thing. I think I've got the best of both worlds. Oh, yes, I retired from my job as a district nurse last January, then went back on just two days a week. So I've cleaned up on the best of both worlds at work as well.

That's interesting, isn't it? From Chris, my wife and I didn't live together for the first two years of our married life and we are apart a fair bit in the week as she spends a couple of days a week looking after her mum. She also has trips away with friends. It works perfectly for us as it makes us feel like individuals. In fact, it makes us feel more human. We just couldn't imagine living in each other's pockets 24-7. It would drive us mad. Men and makeup, which is another

topic we covered. Anonymous says, I'm a man, I'm straight, I'm nearly 50. And as a teen, I used to regularly use spot concealer because I really did have severe acne. At the time, I was working in mechanical engineering in factories and warehouses, and I would never have dared to let my colleagues know that I secretly applied makeup. I've always been mystified about why there's such a stigma about men using it. In the 80s, men were more expressive in this way, but then we seem to slip back again. But it's perfectly okay for men to decorate their face with tattoos. Undoubtedly, that's considered to be masculine and therefore okay.

Another listener, where can I find under eye concealer? I, as a man, have struggled to find anywhere to cater for this in a comfortable environment. Well, yeah, I guess that Dan would say you could find it via his products. And from another listener, Jen, there was a massive fashion for men wearing makeup in the early 70s. I had two boyfriends wearing very heavy eyeliner, one of them my late husband. I thought it was great. And Mick Jagger and Bowie wore loads of makeup, points out Jen. Yeah, I mean, it comes in and out of fashion, doesn't it? And I think it's having a moment now, partly because so many of us are spending a lot of time looking at ourselves and frankly feeling that we are somewhat lacking when we see our faces on Zoom. I'm told that lighting is everything. I've tried lighting. It doesn't make much of a difference as far as i can make out but there you go um right i am back on thursday and two very important conversations that we'll put out on thursday's edition of the program two mothers in slightly different situations one is the parent of a child

who desperately wants puberty blockers and the family supports the child in this the other is the mother of a child who the parents feel is simply not capable of consenting to taking puberty blockers for reasons that you'll find out during the course of that conversation so no judgments made we're not taking sides here but certainly if you're a parent or even if you're not you'll be very interested in what they have to say and it's certainly a situation that I think I would have whichever side of it I might have fallen on, I would have found hard to handle. So that's on Thursday's edition of the programme. Andrea Catherwood is here tomorrow, amongst other things, talking about shyness in children. Have a good day. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch.

And before you listen to this Woman's Hour podcast, a quick word in your ear. After a year like no other, many people are facing homelessness this winter. The 2020 BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields is more urgent than ever. This year, St Martin's has supported hundreds of rough sleepers in London and awarded over 4,600 crisis grants to get people into accommodation and provide basic essential items in every part of the UK. Your gift could give someone the key to home this Christmas. Please support the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields

by donating online on the Radio 4 website. Whether you're a long-standing donor or this is your first year, thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.