Woman's Hour - Gail Porter

Episode Date: January 22, 2020

In 1999, Gail Porter was one of the UK’s most sought-after female TV presenters. Most famously, she helped sell over a million copies of FHM magazine after her naked image was projected onto the Houses of Parliament. In Being Gail Porter, a documentary for BBC Scotland, she explores her rise to celebrity and her fall into depression, anorexia, self-harming and homelessness. She talks to Jenni about why, after more than 20 years, she now feels able to face up to what she's been through and begin to make sense of it all.Milly Chowles has set out to try to understand why, when it comes to relationships, we often repeat what we've done in the past. In the second of her series about toxic relationships she talks to Jo who felt compelled to seek out conflict and drama. Despite a lifetime of correspondence, just 160 of Jane Austen’s letters survive to the present day. The vast majority were burned by her beloved sister Cassandra after her death. But what secrets was she trying to destroy? In her latest novel, Miss Austen, Gill Hornby imagines the complex relationship and lives of these two sisters and the events that motivated the editing and rewriting of Jane’s history.Presenter Jenni Murray Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Gail Porter Guest; Gill Hornby Reporter; Milly Chowles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 22nd of January. Good morning. In today's programme, Miss Austen, Gail Hornby's novel has the older Miss Austen, Cassandra, as its central character and imagines her 23 years after Jane's death. Why did she burn so many of Jane's letters? And the second in our series about toxic relationships.

Jo is a recovering addict who's trying to find out why she's consistently been involved with men who did her no good at all. Now in the late 90s, Gayle Porter was one of the best-known television presenters in the UK. She'd begun her career in children's TV and went on to Top of the Pops. She married, had a daughter, but then things started to go wrong. She had her photograph taken for the now defunct men's magazine FHM, and without her permission, it was projected onto the Houses of Parliament as a publicity stunt. She'd long suffered from anorexia and developed alopecia in 2005. She's suffered severe mental health problems,

used drugs and alcohol, indulged in self-harm, was sectioned under the Mental Health Act and at one point was homeless and slept on a bench on Hampstead Heath. Her documentary, Being Gail Porter, was made by BBC Scotland and it can still be seen on iPlayer. Gail, why did you decide to make a documentary now? Hi, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for having me. Well, I actually got contacted by BBC Scotland and Tarrant Television,

who made the documentary, and they just kind of put the idea to me. And it's not until I hear you say everything all together, and I think, yeah, that's quite an interesting documentary, even if I do say so myself. It's a bit of a rollercoaster. So, yeah, I just decided to go with it. And it turned out to be quite an adventure you know not all um smiles it was lots of um ups and downs and uh you know looking over my past and stuff but I'm really pleased I did it um now that it's I've seen it a couple

of times when it was obviously I was doing the voice on it after it'd been made and everything but yeah it was it was tricky it was. There were lots of clips of those days when you were this bright, bubbly, fantastic television presenter. I wouldn't go that far. Oh, come on, you were. I was bubbly, maybe. You were really good at it.

But I was wondering as I was watching it, how hard had it been to go back and look at that young, bright, cheery Gail Porter from your perspective now? I must admit there were times when the director or producer would bring a DVD or some footage and say, look, that was you with your hair. That was you when you were young. That's when you had a flat and uh when you had some cash um never had huge amounts but had enough to keep me comfortable

so um there was I'd say now maybe half and half you know half really happy to watch it and half kind of sad but when I first watched it when they you know um handed it to me when we started doing the documentary I think I was about 98% brokenhearted thinking can we not just go back to the 90s for a little bit but um but I learned a lot and had a great time and I'm still having a great time just had a bit of a quite a big wobble in between you you met old friends in Edinburgh. I did, yeah. Also your father, your old boss on top of the pot. Why was it important to discuss with them what they thought of you? The whole point of meeting up with them is because I thought that I was hiding everything extremely well. So if I did a photo shoot, as you mentioned before, I self-harmed.

So I would cover everything up, thought no one had noticed. If I was not eating, I thought nobody was noticing because I'd take the food and then I'd manage to get rid of it. And so I thought I was completely in control of this entire situation. And so going back to see these people, it was quite interesting to see that they were saying, well, actually, we knew something was wrong, but we didn't know how to discuss it with you and how to bring it up. So I think that was a really important part of the documentary to say to other people out there, you know, maybe you should talk up if you think something's wrong with someone. Because I think I probably would have pushed them away if they'd said, you know,

why are you not eating or why have you hurt yourself or are you OK? I might have pushed them away. But I think now looking back on it, if they'd asked me a couple of times, I might have opened up a little bit more. So I think that's one of the things I'm really happy about with the documentary is that the amount of people that have reached out to me. And I apologise right now because I've got so many emails and messages on social media. I'm trying to get back to everybody. The amount of people that have gone through similar sort of things as me and don't speak to anyone. So I think we've done a great thing and yeah, hopefully other people will be able to open up. So it was very important for me to go and find out why they didn't say anything or did they think there was something wrong and had I hidden it properly.

It seems the FHM photo was a real turning point. Why did you agree to be photographed naked? Well, yeah, that's always a good point. It was the 90s and I was getting carried away. My moods were all over the place. I didn't think I was good enough and then I thought I was great and then I was terrible you know I was I was all over the place and then I got asked to go in and do this photo shoot and you know at first it was sort of dresses and then we'd had a few drinks and then they said oh you know we'll take a little

picture of your bottom it's not going to be good and I you know I was a bit flattered I was in one of my high moods thinking yes this is great you know and I saw the picture and obviously they'd edited it and they showed me a tiny little polaroid and I thought oh do you know what I'm going to show that to my nan and just look you know it's only my bottom and I showed my grandpa and he said oh I seen that bottom when you were little it's no problem so I didn't know that the whole country was going to see it because it was just going to be a little piece in the magazine and so I didn't know that the whole country was going to see it because it was just going to be a little piece in the magazine. And so I didn't think anything of it. I thought, you know, nobody's going to see it.

And it was quite flattering for me. And I thought, you know, I'm going to look back on this in a few years time and go, I remember when my bottom was that pert. What was your response when it ended up on the House of Commons? Well, as you mentioned, I wasn't told about it. So, you know, I'm not a stupid girl. I knew the photograph was floating around somewhere but I wasn't told to what extent it was going to be

used I thought it was going to be used in a magazine that's going to be read by a few you know girls and guys or whoever reads it or whatever they do but um so I just was watching the news in the morning going to do my teeth came out and there was my huge frame on the Houses of Parliament without me knowing. So someone sent me a message the other day and he said, oh, is it just because you weren't paid? Is that what made you angry? And I said, well, I wasn't angry.

I was just very shocked and also I wasn't prepared because I think if I'd been asked, I would have obviously said no because that's just a ridiculous thing. You show a clip in the documentary of Never Mind the Buzzcock soon after that photo was projected. What do you remember of that programme where you just looked so embarrassed and hurt? I was very hurt because I'm not a stupid girl

and I realised that people were going to look at me in different ways because I'm just, you know, the girl that's were going to look at me in different ways because I'm just you know the girl that's been projected naked you know nothing nothing clever about me and um so I went on Nevermind the Buzzcocks and Phil Jupitus was there who's the nicest man in the world and everybody else was extremely lovely and I know Mark Lamar can be very cutting and so I was on edge because as much as I was getting questions right and I know my music, he just came out with a remark saying, you know, if you're not going to get your clothes off, what's your point in you being here? And I cry a lot. If anyone has seen the documentary, I'm very sensitive. So I knew something was going to come, but I thought I'm not going to walk off.

And I sat there and just got extremely upset. And I thought, that's what people think about me. So, you know, I made my own bed. So, yeah, I just thought either I just get on with it and be strong and just think, well, you know, it's OK. We'll get on with it. So that's what I did. But yeah. It was in 2005 that you developed alopecia. What actually happened?

Did the hair fall out all at once, or was it slow? Four weeks it was. I was working in America, looking for dead people, as you do. I was doing a programme called Dead Famous, and I just noticed clumps were coming out. And my daughter was two at the time,

so I was thinking, you know, it could be my hormones, it could be, you know, mum stuff, because I know that a lot of new mums can lose their hair and then so I didn't think much of it and then it was just getting more and more and I was having a shower and the water was coming up to my ankles because the bath was filling up because all my hair was in the plug hole and it was it was everywhere and then I had just a few strands and we were filming and the lovely makeup lady said, do you want me to shave the rest off? And I said, just please, yes, because it was just it was just crazy.

Now, in the documentary, you wear the most fabulous eyelashes, which I know have been added on. But you've never tried to conceal your hair loss with a wig why not um i think because it was so um instant i got such a shock and my daughter handled it extremely well and i thought okay she's fine with it um i was quite uncomfortable wanting to cover it up and i just thought well if i'm going to be good at something hopefully people you know who are going through chemotherapy or who are losing their hair and don't want to talk about it do you know what this is it and I'm just going to take it so um I kind of thought is this the best idea I've ever had and I thought yes I think it is a pretty good idea and so I think it took a couple of months of people to get used to me and you know paparazzi's taking pictures going oh what's happened to her and what's wrong and so that was quite hurtful but then now you know I

speak to so many people and ladies and gentlemen stop me in the supermarket or in the street whether it's as I say chemotherapy or whether it's you know alopecia I get to chat to everybody so I think you know a couple of months of me being uncomfortable made a bit of a difference for everybody else, hopefully. Now, in the documentary, you go back to the Royal Free Hospital in North London, where you were sectioned. And even now, all this time on, it really upsets you just to be there. Why? Well, being sectioned is not the most fun in the world.

So it just reminds me of a really low time. I was in a bad place. I was in not the best relationship. I was drinking too much. I had no work. I had no hair. And I was losing my house because I couldn't afford to keep the rent up and yeah one thing led to another got taken in

got told I needed to be sectioned and I was just in it was like one flew over the cuckoo's nest I was just given medication so it upsets me the fact that it was just I was locked up and no one to talk to

apart from the other people that were locked up so some of them were absolutely great and some of them could be a little bit scary at times and then yeah it just brings back a lot of bad memories and as I said you you did end up at one point sleeping on a park bench on yeah that was only a couple of times because when I was homeless I had so many amazing friends that if they had room or time that you know I get a bed or I could get a sofa. But of course, they're not always there and it got to the embarrassing stage. So there was a couple of times that I just thought,

I don't know where to go and I can't afford to get somewhere to stay. What did you learn from making the documentary about your mental health and that period of self-harming that you went through? I think the most important thing I learned was that I'm not on my own and I shouldn't have been embarrassed. And, yeah, I think I just learned more about myself and I learned that I'm pretty resilient. I'm still here.

But have you found out what's at the root of the mental health problem? Not really. I think it's just everybody's individual. So my moods can change from one minute to the next. And some people like to take medication for it. Personally, I just, you know, I'm going to be 50 soon. So I just, I take it as it is. Your birthday's coming up too, isn't it?

Yeah, sure. We won't go there. We're going to have a joint party. A little bit older than you, Gail, obviously. No, I just think I learned about liking myself a bit more and, yeah, accepting who I am. Just one other thing. I noticed throughout the documentary

you were wearing a necklace with the name Honey, your daughter's name. Yes, that's my daughter's name, just in case I forgot. And you wore it all the time. Yes. Why? Well, because she wasn't there with me. And I actually just saw it.

It was a wee cheapy thing. So I just had it on all the time. And I think she was quite embarrassed about the whole thing. But I was constantly just holding on to it. Just, you know, she was very proud of me. She actually watched the documentary last week because I wasn't sure if she, you know, she's 17 now. And she was quite moved by the whole thing.

So she's the best girl. So yeah, I held onto it so much and actually broke on the last day. So I need to go and get myself a new one today. You have to go and get another one. Gail Porter, thank you so much for being with us. And I'll just repeat that the documentary Being Gail Porter can be seen on iPlayer right now.

And have a lovely birthday. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, any fan of Jane Austen's knows she never married. She lived with her big sister, Cassandra, who she adored. And she died relatively young in 1817 at the age of 41. Cassandra would live for another 28 years

and famously, at some point, burn the majority of the letters they had exchanged. Only around 160 copies of Jane's entire correspondence remain. Well, Jill Hornby is the author of a novel, Miss Austin, in which she examines the relationship between these two women and the events that may have motivated Cassandra's destruction of so much of her sister's history. Jill, how did Cassandra's story come into your life? Well, it came into my life 26 years ago, actually. I'd never heard of her. I'd read all of Jane's books and loved them.

But then we moved into the village of Kimbury in West Berkshire into the old vicarage. And people said to us, oh oh there's a Jane Austen connection to your house and I didn't really think much of it because it's a very kind of standard looking sort of Jane Austen-y sort of village and then it turned out that the connection was that Cassandra was engaged to the second son of the vicar of Kimpry at the end of the 18th century. And that it was the perfect match. The vicars of Kimpry were best friends with George Austin Jane's father. And so they were huge family friends.

It couldn't have been better. It was to be a long engagement because he was a poor curate. And tragedy intervened. They never married. Cassandra, in her early 20s, was plunged into mourning. It was to be a long engagement because he was a poor curate and tragedy intervened. They never married. Cassandra, in her early 20s, was plunged into mourning, wore black for years and years. And that was that. And so she rather sort of haunted me from that point. It's reckoned there are, as I said, around 160 letters that survived.

What do we learn about their relationship from the surviving letters? It was wonderful, I think. One of the great sadnesses for me is that Cassandra didn't just burn a lot of Jane's letters to her, she burnt all of her letters to Jane. So she's a completely silent partner in these. But nearly all of the ones that survive are to Cassandra. And you realise that you see how much Jane looked up to her. Cassandra was the elder daughter. So and it was very much in the classic mould of Cassandra was the better looking. She was sort of taller, slimmer, more. Her mother thought she was a marvel.

She was a brilliant sewer. She was very capable. She was very responsible. Jane was a slightly more frisky and mercurial character. Jane lookedandra had had. Jane says, you really are the finest comic writer of your age, which is quite an accolade. They natter a lot about lace and bonnets and skirts and what colour muslin to buy. And she loves her. She calls her your, you know, take care of your precious self and that sort of thing. Your story is very much a portrait of women and their roles being carers, holding things together.

Why was that a story that interested you? I'm obsessed with this. I'm obsessed with this. I think we as a culture focus all the time on the great person, on prime ministers and politicians and people who change the world. And I think society is actually made and kept going by the rest of us, the sort of the broadly decent, the one who raise their families to be good, get their kids to school every day and turn up to parents' evenings and do things in the community and work in food banks and act as carers and look after the elderly who all let's face it are still seem to be

women and Cassandra once she was plunged into this eternal spinsterhood by Tom's death became the help me to the wider family they were a a huge family, the Austins. There were eight siblings, and then the brothers went on to have millions of babies between them. And whenever anybody was born or got ill or died, it was Cassandra they sent for all the time, you know. So she was constantly being sent off to Kent to look after the nursery while the mother was in labour again and stuff like that. She was a marvel, you know, and that's what she did with her life.

Would you say she ever felt hard done by? Because there was Jane brilliantly writing and Cassandra looking after everybody. I think she was hard done by. I don't think she would ever have felt hard done by because I think her sense of duty and commitment to the family was absolute. And that's how she was brought up. And she was a properly good, dutiful person. She was also utterly devoted to Jane and had complete and utter faith when a lot of people didn't in Jane's writing. And Jane was one of the people she was keeping going. Jane had all sorts of ups and downs.

And without Cassandra, I think she would have failed. For a start, this business of Cassandra's collapsed engagement was vital to Jane. Because if Cassandra had married, then Jane would have had to have married too. Because the thing about single women is that there was safety in numbers, they had to gather together, really, because if everybody had a little bit of money, and they put it in, then there was enough for a house. But very few single women had enough to pay for their own rents and their own so on. So they sort of gathered together and created these alternative households. And with Cassandra, Jane was able to have this household in which she wrote.

And if Jane had married, it would not have been a particularly brilliant match. She would not have got Mr Darcy. She didn't have much going for her. And she would not have been able to write more than a letter. She would have had a hard domestic life. Now, we really don't know why Cassandra chose to burn the letters. The novel imagines it's partly to destroy evidence of those painful events in Cassandra's life. How much of that is based in fact? That is entirely my supposition, but it seems to me utterly reasonable

and commonsensical that that is what was going on because Jane was a homebody and she was a writer. She was born to write. She, you know, had this utter brilliance within her. And when she's scribbling away on these tiny bits of paper with her quill, writing these masterpieces, she's happy. Before her father retired, they lived in this rectory in Steventon and she'd written the first drafts of sense of sensibility and um pride and prejudice then her father retired and they were off to bath i think probably to try and find some

husbands for these hopeless daughters and then it was constant seaside visits and going to then their then their father died and with him died his pension and then the three women Mrs Austin Cassandra and Jane it was rooming houses long stays with relatives and slightly out staying you're welcome and getting your laundry done for free when you were there it was huge unsettlement and in all of that period Jane wrote nothing and she was a writer and to not be able to write, to feel so disturbed physically, but disturbed by your environment that you can't write, you cannot then be moodless and cheerful and happy throughout it. It makes no human sense, does it?

There's no such stable geniuses, apart from Donald Trump, who obviously are a very rare thing to come across. She had all the sensibilities of a genius. Then they got this cottage in Shorten. Cassandra said, OK, right, I'm going to run the house. Martha's going to do the cooking. Mother's going to do the garden.

You are going to sit at that table and write those novels. You're very careful in the novel to have Cassandra encouraging young Isabella, with whom she's staying, a reluctant reader, it has to be said, to read Jane's work. How proud do you think Cassandra was of the completed novels? Bursting. Absolutely bursting. It was funny when I said to people occasionally, you know, about Jane's sister. Jane had this sister, Cassandra. Oh. I didn't know she had a sister. Yes. Was she very jealous? Absolutely the opposite. Jane was her life's work. I mean, she knew what she was and she loved her. There is no evidence whatsoever of any jealousy or friction between them. And it was Jane died before Persuasion and Northanger Abbey had been published and it was Cassandra that prepared them for publication. And she used to keep notes of when she did hear, because Jane's popularity then dipped enormously,

but when she did hear nice things, she'd write it down in a little notebook to sort of treasure it. Now, one of the most exciting moments of my life was when I got invited into the house in Winchester where Jane died. And I sat on the window seat where Cassandra had sat and watched Jane's cortege go by because women were not allowed to attend funerals. She did not want Jane to be buried in Winchester, did she? No, she wanted to take her home to Chawton, you know.

But the brothers had the power, and the brothers were, two of them were churchmen, they had an inn with the cathedral, and the cathedral was, as you know, like paces from the room, the let room

in which she died. So she was merely buried there for convenience. A lot of people think it's some sort of honour, like being in Poets' Corner. It's the opposite. It was the nearest place they could kind of dump her. And in fact, she was just put down. It was that big tombstone that you can see on the wall

and you now have to pay to go into the cathedral to see it, was only put up there after her popularity came up again in the 20th century. She was just another... A cathedral was a local church in those days. It wasn't, you know, quite the sort of beacon of culture as it is now.

Teal Hornby, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning and I'll just remind everyone the novel is called Miss Austin. Thank you. Now still to come in today's programme, the third episode of the serial, A Small Town Murder and we're planning a future discussion about loneliness which of course can affect anybody at any age and if you're living with it at the moment we'd love to hear from you. You may be single or married, young or old, but we'd like to know how you're dealing with it

and the effect it's having on you. Do get in touch through email through the Woman's Hour website. Now, earlier in the week, you may have missed yesterday's discussion about the new fashion for dressing more modestly and on Monday the phone-in about restricting the number of children you have, if any, for the sake of the planet. you can find what you missed on BBC sounds also earlier this week you may have heard the first in a series about toxic relationships where Nina explained how she had long been attracted to men she

now describes as bad boys well today in the second in the series Millie Charles talks to another woman who now understands why she kept getting caught in the same loop. As someone who's in recovery from addiction myself a real theme in my life and that of many of my friends is the addictive nature of relationships. It's something that often really comes to the surface when you get clean and sober and breaking free from a toxic relationship for some people can feel as hard as getting off drugs or booze. It shares so many of the same hallmarks, denial, withdrawal, craving and then for many believing the lie that this time it will be different and relapsing sometimes over and over again.

Jo is several years clean and sober and she told me about her first relationship in recovery with a fellow recovering addict that started as so many do after a recovery meeting. I knew John from the meetings that I went to. We connected because of a bereavement and we were kind of friends and things kind of developed quite quickly from then. It was pretty unhealthy from the beginning because he sort of bombarded me with communication and I was, you know, I hadn't dated for a while. So I was quite sort of green, really. And I was quite naive about the whole thing and sort of found myself in this liaison that was very kind of heavy and intense from the beginning.

And why hadn't you dated for a while? I hadn't dated for a while because I was on a recovery path. I took time out to focus on myself. I knew that I was making choices that weren't really very good for me and I was getting into quite toxic relationships. And I'd been through so much pain and difficulty. It felt like the right thing to do. I was done. I needed a break. So how sober were you or how long had you been sober at that point when you met John?

I was a year and a half sober, I think. Tell me a bit more about that how that unfolded. I knew from the very beginning that it wasn't right for me I didn't necessarily trust him and it sounds strange to say that you know getting into a relationship with someone that you didn't really trust and that you felt also a bit afraid of it was a kind of roller coaster really. Why did you get into the relationship then what was the thing that drew you in? It was the summer time I tried a bit of online dating before and that hadn't really gone anywhere it felt quite boring and my self-esteem wasn't that good so suddenly

this you know quite big character came into my life and was sort of showering me with compliments and making me feel like I was very important to him and that felt very compelling. The fact that he was from a very different background, he'd been in prison, he'd been homeless, he was a very different kind of person to one that I'd ever dated before so it all was very sort of romantic I guess and compelling. How did the relationship come to an end? I mean unfortunately the relationship descended into harassment yeah the relationship ended because I was very afraid and I knew he wasn't well when I was trying to end it I was afraid that he would come and find me and was

quite scared so I contacted the police I had worked out from his communication, which I increasingly saw as very manipulative, that he was a compulsive liar and he would threaten to kill himself, harm himself. He wouldn't be contactable for long periods of time. And so I blocked him out of my life. After that relationship ended with John, how were you left? I was left feeling quite numb. I felt a lot of shame, actually. I felt shame that I had caused this horrible situation where I felt unsafe and pretty much kept it to myself. I didn't really tell family and stuff because I was I was

I felt shame and I was still quite quite scared I think I felt quite a big burden of responsibility which is which is a hallmark of people in abusive relationships isn't it so I felt like it was kind of my fault really. And what was the process of rebuilding yourself I guess or kind of coming back to yourself after that? It took a few years to be honest I mean and it wasn't the last unhealthy relationship I had unfortunately I had another relationship that was no not as scary but pretty scary so I had to kind of have a few more bad experiences I think to really up my game I guess with my recovery in in terms of improving my decision making around relationships yeah. Tell me about the other situations that happened. Quite similar

in in the sense of quite controlling quite a lot of duplicity again you know choosing quite an unwell person to be in relationship with again excitement compelling and that feeling of being needed and and and also you know I take responsibility for for choosing partners who were never going to necessarily provide stability that I needed you know there was an avoidance within me I believe so it wasn't all their fault you know that second dramatic relationship was yeah very all-consuming and it and it really affected me it affected my work it was um very obsessive and lots of drama and finding out stuff and oh my god and you know but at the same time there's sort of denial like this the capacity for denial and

and disregarding certain red flags I suppose and because of the desire to keep the relationship going some kind of misguided notion that by just keeping going it will suddenly transform into a healthy relationship that I guess the idea that you can kind of love somebody into healthiness or something but it doesn't doesn't work that way and what was the cost for you in that? Again you know feeling quite devastated and not because I wanted to continue being with that person but a kind of internal devastation like I'd let myself down and again shame really. I was nearly five years sober you know and I was still getting into these crazy relationships. You said there was something in you, an avoidance in you, that was leading you perhaps towards people that couldn't provide what you needed.

Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? I think for me the avoidance is about not having to really reveal myself with somebody, you know, somebody's got a lot going on and they're not very well and they're you know quite self-centered and controlling and they want you to to be a certain type of person within the relationship then you don't really have to show who you are you don't really have to take any kind of emotional risks because you know the relationship isn't going anywhere and it's quite an unconscious thing that I kept myself safe almost and you know there's a lot going on on the outside a lot of drama and oh my god this is happening and that's happening

but really I'm not I'm staying hidden that's the kind of irony of it really. Both of the the relationships that you've described that happened both of them in in your recovery whilst you were sober you described them both as unwell I'm taking for that you mean mentally unwell would it be accurate to say that you were in some way sort of saving that person? Yeah, definitely. I think I did feel somewhat powerful in the role of being with someone that I thought that I could help or fix and that that person needed me in that way. You know, I don't want to be needed like that today.

I don't want to be pedestalised or someone's rescuer. I really don't think it's a healthy dynamic. Yeah, because I guess if you're rescuing someone, there's a hierarchy in that. So there's the rescuer and the rescuee, isn't it? And the rescuer is putting their hand down. So they're slightly above that person in a sort of ego sense. Actually, I relate to that on a personal level. But it's not something necessary that you would have been doing consciously, I imagine something that maybe

reveals itself when you start to look a bit more closely inwards. Definitely. And I think other things that seem really appealing, like that person's really exciting, or they're really good in bed bed or they're just constantly in contact with you and there's that sort of intensity that can happen with communication all that can sort of seem like you know that's those are the things that I want and actually there are some glaring aspects that just are really unhealthy kind of a misguided idea that intensity drama excitement means love I think that's also a societal thing as well we're kind of conditioned to believe that fireworks it should be fireworks you send us storylines you know I think that has a lot to do with it so you've described how you

felt at the end of that second relationship that was similarly sort of emotionally absorbing and draining and you said you felt you know huge amounts of shame and self-blame how did you move beyond that? I moved beyond that with I guess a sort of for me a sort of primal sense of I have to survive this I have to get through this this is not how life is supposed to be this is not how relationships are supposed to be and I was and am very fortunate to have lots of amazing friends and people that I know in recovery so I had a real network of people that helped me and and I really sought out help I did certain courses I spoke to really wise women about how to grow in areas that I needed to grow. So after that ended, did you stay away from relationships? Did you fall to the same traps?

I took another period of time out from relationships, did some more work on myself. And then I got into another relationship that was wildly better and more healthy. And that was a real game changer. That relationship didn't work out I'm we're still friends you know I'm in a good place I feel like I've got the power of choice now to make good decisions and I'm not attracted to dysfunction in the way that I maybe was before what kind of mindset were you going into that relationship with? How was it different from previously? Before, I used to sort of accidentally find myself in relationships. So it would be quite unconscious.

I had a period of considered dating before I decided whether or not I wanted to go out with that person. And did that include sleeping with them? Yeah, so I think it was about a month of dating, just sort of going about things in a bit more of a reflective way. Do you think there is something in jumping into a sexual relationship with someone too soon that's perhaps compelling as well, or can make you more vulnerable to making unhealthy choices? Definitely. It's a very powerful thing to connect with somebody sexually it can be quite addictive my experience as a woman is when I get sexually involved I get emotionally involved

I get attached and so it's very difficult to break away from a relationship once that's happened. In your previous relationships was there pressure to kind of be intimate with people sexually before perhaps you were ready? Definitely. But I would also say that I look back and I see how it was my desire to people please, I guess, and to like hold on to the guy by maybe getting involved a bit earlier than maybe I could have done. You've sort of described the rock bottom where do we go from here in terms of your your path to freedom from that compelling pattern? The path to freedom I think is rebuilding or finding for the first time a relationship with oneself and I've definitely been on that journey. I look back at my years as a young woman and see that I was quite disassociated I think from myself and obviously being you know in alcoholism and addiction and stuff I didn't take care of

myself. My experience is through taking time out from relationships, working on myself, really following my passions and really sort of rebuilding that connection with myself. What I find attractive has changed. So I no longer find a hot mess attractive. It just spells pain to me. I'm not far off 10 years in recovery. It's taken me a long time. Jo was talking to Minnie Chow's.

We had lots of response to the interview with Gail Porter. Fiona Swainston said on Twitter, so enjoyed hearing this interview. Gail, your honest and lovely personality shone through, wishing you every happiness and success in the future and rickles on twitter said a moving but strong interview porter's sense of humor shone through her strength and i have to say what a gorgeous speaking voice more of her on radio say i jill hornby discussed cassandra the other miss austin and eleanor mcdougall sent an email and

said i'm in tears hearing about cassandra and jane pride and prejudice was their dream lives by comparison to their actual lives seeing the book in a very different light and then on toxic relationships kate sent an email and said i thought i'd share with you the feeling i remember in a very different light. And then on toxic relationships, Kate sent an email and said, I thought I'd share with you the feeling I remember of being in an addictive relationship. Every molecule of my existence vibrated at his frequency. It felt like an inescapable addiction.

I managed to get out of it through, A, several years of therapy, so I could see what was happening and became able to think about it then be telling him I didn't love him anymore. I did but it was the only way to stop it. It took a couple of years for him to go away and more years for me to stop wanting him to turn away from that experience and move on. Though I haven't found another relationship, nothing will ever move me as much. And Kimberley sent an email and said,

I only caught the last bit of the interview, but I can resonate with all that I heard of Millie's findings. Learning about myself and how to love and care for myself has vastly changed the kind of person I'm attracted to. It's taken a decade of work, a mix of counselling, reading, educational courses and some very frank conversations with family. But I'm very proud of where I am now.

I've stayed single for the past two years. I'm now going on date number four with the sweetest person tonight Wouldn't change a thing about the past as it has been worth it in the long run Now do join me tomorrow for for Thursday's program When we'll be discussing women friends and how much they mean to you There's a new play at the Royal Court Theatre which explores the highs and the lows of friendship between women. The playwright Miriam Batty and the actor Rebecca Murrell

will be here tomorrow. And then in October 1726 the newspapers began reporting a remarkable event in the town of Godalming in Surrey. a woman named Mary Toft was giving birth to rabbits. The historian Karen Harvey has published a book about Mary and she'll be here tomorrow to explain what it reveals about 18th century England. That's two minutes past ten tomorrow. Join me if you can. Bye-bye. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Anna Delvey was due to inherit $67 million. I'm so excited about what the future holds. She secured huge investments for a project in New York. She was very confident in her words. And yet, it was all a lie. She's a con artist. Join journalist Vicky Baker as she delves into a real-life scandal. We'll mix drama with documentary to tell the story of Anna Delvey's rise and fall.

Fake Heiress, a new six-part podcast on BBC Sounds. I was watching this whole thing happen thinking it can't be true. Download the free app to listen. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.