Woman's Hour - Gemma Arterton, Care Homes, The Astronomer Royal

Episode Date: May 27, 2021

Gemma Arterton’s latest acting role is in a play called Walden. It's on in London’s West End and it's the story of estranged twin sisters: one's a botanist for Nasa and the other's a former architect for Nasa. They meet up in a remote cabin in the woods sometime in the future, when the earth’s situation is looking bleak.We take a look at some of claims made yesterday by Dominic Cummings about care homes with Gisella Casciello Rogers whose 85 year old father died in one last year. And we also have Helen Wildbore from The Relatives and Residents Association. Prof Catherine Heymans, astrophysicist and world-leading expert in the so-called dark universe, is now the Astronomer Royal of Scotland. She's the first woman to hold this prestigious role, but the problem is she's still not entirely convinced she should have the job. She suffers from impostor syndrome, but we know she shouldn't! She talks to Emma about challenging the status quo and dealing with aggressive criticism.And we have Annie Macmanus (formerly known as Annie Mac, the DJ) and Esther Freud talking about their new novels which have common themes: motherhood and the risk of losing yourself.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We've all had to get used to things being in the diary this past year or so and then suddenly not. Today, one of my guests, the actor Gemma Arterton, was due on stage on Tuesday evening. In fact, I was sat there in the audience, eagerly anticipating her performance. And then suddenly at 7.26, a member of the team came on stage to announce that the play was being cancelled that evening after a member of the backstage team received a notification from Track and Trace that someone they'd been in contact with had COVID. All of that came out afterwards. We'll hear how that

was, waiting to go on in the wings and then not but unexpected cancellations we thought this was a good opportunity to hear about yours last minute changes of plans what happened it was meant to happen what didn't happen what was cancelled last minute how did you regroup have you regrouped of course we've thought a lot this year about weddings but there's been all sorts of other examples and they may predate the last year. We would like to hear those stories. What happened next? Were you disappointed or were you relieved? That's a whole other emotion we would like to hear about.

Text us here at Women's Hour on 84844. You can get in touch with me on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by the author Esther Freud and the DJ and now author Annie Mack, who both have books out today which share many themes, missing mothers, an Irish setting and untold family stories. A lot to unpack there. And we'll be joined by the first woman to become the Astronomer Royal of Scotland, Professor Catherine Haymans. How on earth can she have imposter syndrome? But I'm told that she has at times and she'll be sharing what she does to manage it as well as taking us on a journey far

away. Now the news is dominated though by Dominic Cummings today. Boris Johnson's former right-hand man said yesterday while giving evidence to a select committee of MPs many many things. Many jaw-dropping things, he alleged, not least that the Prime Minister is unfit for the role, all of which will no doubt be analysed and debated at length today and in the coming weeks and months, if not years. However, we're going to look at just one of his claims, what he said about care homes. Just as a reminder, this is what Dominic Cummings said, a quote,

The government rhetoric was, we put a shield around care homes. It was complete nonsense. He went on to say, quite the opposite of putting a shield around them, we sent people with COVID back to the care homes. He was talking about from hospital in that particular instance. Here he is answering a question from Barbara Keeley, a member of one of those select committees, a Labour MP. Looking back now at what we're just discussing,

after Covid was seeded into care homes, do you think the government, including SAGE, was taking that risk of transmission into care home settings as seriously as they should? And I want to look at this in the context of what you've said since. Was it the start of the thinking by the Prime Minister that has been reported as Covid is only killing 80-year-olds? Was there a sense that it kind of didn't matter because it's people at the end of their lives and it just didn't matter? gan y Prif Weinidog, a dyma'r unrhyw un sy'n cael ei ddysgu fel cyfnod, mae'n unig yn llwyddo 80 oed. Oedd yna syniad nad oedd yn bwysig oherwydd bod pobl yn

ddiwedd eu bywydau ac nid oedd yn bwysig? Felly, ddwy gwestiwn gwahanol yno. Y cwestiwn cyntaf, rwy'n credu, oedd yn y bôn, oedd hynny'n'i ddatganu'n dda iawn a'r peth arall gan nifer 10 ac ati? Y cwestiwn yw, yn amlwg, nid. Nid oedd yn cael ei ddysgu'n dda iawn, nid oedd yna unrhyw fath o blynydd. Mae'n glir yn ymlaen i'r ymddygiad bod y sefyllfa'n gwbl cadastroffig wedi digwydd gyda'r bobl hyn yn cael eu cyflwyno yn ddiogel ac wedyn eu cymryd yn gair. with these people being sent back untested and then seeding it in care homes. I think there's no other way to describe it than that. You know, like all of these things, it wasn't deliberate. It was a function of the overall fact that the system was just completely overwhelmed.

Dominic Cummings also said that the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, had told Mr Johnson previously that people going from hospitals back into care homes would be tested, and they were not. He also said the Health Secretary should have been fired for at least 15 or 20 transgressions. Matt Hancock, spokesman after the testimony yesterday, said that he rejected Dominic Cummings' claims,

and Mr Hancock is expected to give a statement in the House of Commons shortly. But what about the people whose loved ones were in care homes during the pandemic? The people who then couldn't visit them, couldn't hug them, and the ones who lost family. Gisela Cacciello-Rogers lost her father at the end of March 2020 while he was living in a care home. She is now part of the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice UK support group, which is calling for an inquiry into the many thousands of COVID deaths. And Helen Wildboer is director of the Relatives and Residents Association,

a charity that supports older people in care. Gisela, if I could start with you and how this was in your family, because as I understand it, you were visiting your father in the early days of the pandemic. Did you feel there was a protective shield around his care home?

No, not at all. We were given no clear instructions. We carried on life as normal. We went as a family to visit dad daily. Nothing was put in place, nothing until COVID reached the home, that is. And it reached the home the home unfortunately pretty much at the beginning before lockdown so probably two weeks before lockdown actually came into place. And what happened with your dad? Well my dad unfortunately was one of the first people to get Covid and I have to reiterate here that the home only had 20 residents we didn't they didn't take in people from hospital at all they were full to capacity as I said only 20 people so how dad contracted COVID we have no idea it could have been from a family visitor it could have been from the staff themselves

but it became clear that dad had COVID and he displayed all the symptoms. And slowly and gradually, one by one, quite a few of the other residents became ill with the COVID. It was a complete shambles. I remember going for a walk on Mother's Day that year in March with my family and receiving an email which was sent out to all the residents family from the care home manager asking, pleading for help of any kind for us to reach out to get help for them. They were on their knees. They described it as a war zone. Patients were sick. They had no PPE. There was no testing. They asked and pleaded for testing to come through. Finally, after about, I don't know, 10 days, three tests arrived. My father was given one of them

and two other people were given the other two. My father's test was positive and they just said, right, well, we'll just deem that the rest have got it as well. And that was that. I'm very sorry. It was just well, it got it went from bad to worse. The staff themselves were dropping like flies. One of the main people that worked as night staff, he himself was hospitalised and was quite critical. The staff were even asking if we knew of any caravans or anything that they could just literally sleep outside because they were too frightened to go home to their own families. It was absolutely terrifying.

I, at the time, did what I could. I reached out to my local MP, who was very helpful and brought it up in Prime Minister's question times. I went on live TV to say that this was an absolute disaster that had started and was going to spread like wildfire. So this comment of a protective arm around these care homes was absolute rubbish. We were all screaming and pleading for help. How did it make you feel yesterday when you heard what Dominic Cummings had to say? Well, it's just a complete, it's just ridiculous. It's a blame game between incompetent schoolboys. These people held our lives, my father's life and many others, in their hands and they chose to ignore it.

They just carried on with what they thought was best for the economy, not for these people's lives. My father was 95. The day he died, unfortunately, was his 95th birthday. It was supposed to be a day when us family could be with him with balloons and cake and celebrate. My father was old, but he wasn't sick. It wasn't his time to die. On his death certificate, it just states COVID, nothing else. And he was lucky that he was put on that list as having died from COVID. All those other people that died in that home, over a quarter of those people did not have that on that certificate. So quite frankly, how many thousands of more people have died in care homes that aren't on that official number?

That's what I'd like to know. And someone needs to be held accountable now. And I know that you're pushing for the inquiry, which the government has said will go ahead. But I know that there is concern from people that you're working with that it's not going to happen soon enough. Let me bring in Helen at this point. Helen, as Director of the Relatives and Residents Association, I know you help run a helpline. What kind of calls were you taking in March and April last year? Well, our experience and what we were hearing through our helpline is sadly very similar to what Giselle has described there.

We heard about lots of families with concerns about the lack of PPE, the lack of testing, the movement of staff between care homes, different settings, which could potentially be spreading it. And people felt left behind, they felt abandoned. They felt that the government's emphasis on protect the NHS actually was putting the lives of older people who use care services at far greater risk. Particularly, as we've said, the discharge of patients from hospital without testing. And I think what Dominic Cummings said yesterday about when the government needed us the most,

they failed us. So when we needed the government the most, they failed us, was absolutely right. And older people have been failed by the very systems that were designed to protect them, not just the Department of Health and Social Care and other government agencies, but the rest of the protection that you would expect to be in place. So the Care Quality Commission, for example, the regulator of care services, staying away, pausing their routine inspections, which still haven't been restarted properly. Other health professionals staying away, safeguarding teams, social workers.

The backing off from the care sector, from care services by other professionals and leaving care workers to do what they can, pick up the pieces. You know, they were having to procure their own PPE and they were in competition with the NHS in trying to get hold of that. And some care providers actually passed the cost of that on to the residents, either through one of payments or increased fees. So the care sector had been was abandoned in the early stages of the pandemic. And sadly, we're still here for a helpline that it's still being left behind today. Yes, and also just building on that, there was surprises in many quarters with the Queen's speech recently that social care was not included as part of the government's planning and its immediate priorities.

Gisela, to come back to you boris johnson yesterday speaking at prime minister's questions in the middle of dominant coming as evidence to the select committee said the handling of this pandemic has been one of the most difficult things this country has had to do for a very long time and none of the decisions have been easy to go into a lockdown is a traumatic thing for a country to deal with a pandemic on this scale has been appallingly difficult and we have at every stage tried to minimise loss of life, save lives, to protect the NHS and to follow the best scientific advice that we can. Downing Street today have said all sides of the story will be heard at the upcoming public inquiry into the pandemic adding that the Prime Minister would be getting on with the job by visiting a hospital today. Gisela, what would you say to that, that at every stage, every effort was made?

Well, it's just complete rubbish. It is galling, actually. It's actually an insult to put out those words to me and to all those thousands of other people. There was no help. There was was no support they were scrabbling around trying like you say like getting PPE in trying to get testing we had no advice no help and all I could do was stand behind a closed door because I wasn't allowed in and watch in despair while this was unfolding I put my voice out there as much as I could and it went unheard and so did many other people's voices. It's shameful. It's shameful. Is there anything that I know that the inquiry coming that's part of what you wanted but is there anything that

could be done to redress that or what do you want now? Well it's too late now for me and it's too late now for a lot of people and I actually would like to just try and put this behind me and try to get on with the morning which actually I have not even properly done. I wasn't with my dad at the end and neither were a lot of people with their families so but I want answers. I want them to say exactly why they forgot the people in care homes. The focus was very much on the NHS. And of course we all care about the NHS. It's a wonderful thing. But these people, these people, many of which probably worked in the NHS for many, a long part of their lives, were just left. They were left and disregarded, like they were old and they were no use to anybody else. We all knew that these people wouldn't be taken into hospital if they got ill.

We were told that, you know, they had nothing. I mean, what was striking, there was many striking things about Dominic Cummings' testimony yesterday, but he did begin the whole thing with an apology. He did talk about that from the point of view of the failings of himself and those around him. Did that strike a chord with you? Did that go any way to redressing what you're talking about? No, sorry, it didn't. It's, as I said earlier on, it's just feels like a complete spat between, you know, between the government people now. And it's not about us. It's about

who did this and who did that. And I'm sorry, it's all a little bit too late. Gisela, thank you for talking to us today. You're welcome. Thank you. Helen Wildball there, Director of the Relatives and Residents Association. A message here. My niece was working in a care home when COVID started here. She was horrified by the way old people were being let down and treated over this time. She eventually left the profession, no longer wanting to be part of something so disrespectful to older people. Another one here. On sending people back to care homes without testing for Covid,

people are still being discharged to home care settings without Covid testing. My mother was. When I questioned this, I was told, well, the carers should just wear PPE. I expect more messages to come in on that. And of course, if you wish to contribute, 84844 is the number you need to text or get in touch with us on social media or through our website. Going back to something we were talking about on Tuesday's programme, we also had an update for you yesterday. On Tuesday, I talked to Michelle Hadaway, whose daughter Karen was one of the girls murdered in a case that became known as the Babes in the Wood case in 1986. Michelle told us how Martin Bashir had taken some of her daughter's clothes for DNA testing as part of a BBC documentary he was making about the murders, but he'd never given them back

and when asked, couldn't remember having them. In the interview, Michelle also referred to a journalist called Eileen Fairweather, who Michelle says witnessed the handing over of her daughter's clothes. Eileen worked with Martin Bashir for several months in 1991, researching this possible BBC documentary. However, I want to clarify that Eileen Fairweather has confirmed to us that her contract ended immediately after that meeting, and she never saw Martin Bashir again. She repeatedly tried to find out from Martin Bashir and his team

what happened to those clothes and has previously tried to alert the BBC to this issue. She has raised this issue in several newspaper articles and supports Michelle's fight for the truth about what Bashir did with this evidence, so we're sorry for any ambiguity in Tuesday's programme and distress it caused. Eileen Fairweather is an award-winning freelance journalist

who's specialised for decades in exposing child abuse and institutional cover-ups, including the mass abuse in Islington's children's homes, for which her groundbreaking work has won the Catherine Packham Award for Women Journalists and two British Press Awards. Now, more of your messages just coming in about the issue we're talking about here with Dominic Cummings' allegations yesterday.

A question here. Did Boris Johnson and co actually micromanage or order for these people back to care homes? Or was it hospital's mismanagement decision? It seems the truth depends on one's agenda, reads this message from Sandy. If women's are joining the bandwagon now, then at least try to address this accusation. Sandy, we are reporting on what has been alleged. We're also telling you what has been said in response. We'll bring you, of course, anything we need to about those responses

and also hearing from those affected. But it is a question and it was also brought up with regards to the role of the NHS boss, Simon Stevens. And I'm sure something that we would like very much to ask ministers about. And thank you for bringing that message to us. Leanne on email says, I'm a regular member of the public.

I could see how fast the virus was spreading in Italy. I kept my 95-year-old mother at home. How could the government not see this? Boris Johnson was, in my opinion, very cavalier in his approach to it. We are an island. We could have kept it better out, reads this message from Leanne. Good morning to you. Keep them coming in. You're also getting in touch about cancellations and when things haven't gone in terms of what you're expecting to happen, certainly in the year that we have had, because, as I mentioned at the beginning,

about a particular theatre production that had to cancel very short notice this week. Let's talk about who's in that, because from St Trinian's to James Bond to Maiden Dagenham, the actor Gemma Arterton is back treading the boards in a new play by Amy Berriman called Walden, currently on stage in the London's West End. Raised by their astronaut father, it is the story of estranged twin sisters.

The play follows Cassie, a NASA botanist, who after returning from a year-long moon mission, goes to see her sister Stella, played by Gemma, a former NASA architect, living a new life with a climate activist in a remote cabin in the woods. Old wounds resurface as the sisters deal with their rivalry, and I should say it's set sometime in the world's future where the Earth's situation is looking bleak, to say the least. Gemma, good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you? Well, I'm fine. And I was so looking forward to seeing you on Tuesday evening. I'm so sorry. You do not need to apologise. Yeah, we were all so surprised and saddened. And it was a big shock. But hey,

ho, you know, we all we did what we had to do. We followed the government guidelines and we were back up and running yesterday. So I was just so grateful to be back because it's such a wonderful play. But please do come back, Emma. We invite you back any time. No, no, I would love that. And it's a big theatre enthusiast. And I was so excited because I haven't been for so long as so many haven't as well. I just wanted to ask, though, because we are talking about what has been an extraordinary year and people only just getting back to, especially in your line of work, what you're able to do. What was that like behind the scenes, sort of ready to go out and then, you know, there's cancellations and then there's cancellations. It was very bizarre.

I went home with half an eye made up, you know, like I was in shock. We were all in shock and saddened because it's, you know, we so love this play. We've worked so hard on it. And, you know, the audience, it's it's even more important because people are so excited to come back. So we were saddened. And, you know, but at the same time, you go home and you just hope that everybody tests negative the next day which we all did and then you go back and it's just even more special when you get to share it but um I guess it's just the times we're living in now you know that's that's what I was going to say I promise we'll come to the content of it in the moment and why you were drawn to it but I think it is an extraordinary moment and there's so much emotion I imagine, as an actor and for people who actually work in that world who just haven't been able in the audience and backstage, this buzz, this excitement, real emotion, as well as we've been through something together and

now we get to share something live. And so, yeah, when there is something like what happened on Tuesday night, you feel you just feel so sad and it just goes to show how fragile all of this is at the moment. But we're all it's also wonderful and exciting when you do see live performance. It's it's it's even more exciting and precious. And so but yeah, there is this always this feeling backstage. We open officially today. So we're all just, you know, we're just so grateful that we can do this what what did you do instead on tuesday i went to a bar what did you do i got home and i

think i watched some telly i mean it was just i was just trying to keep calm really um yeah you went to a bar i'm'm glad you still enjoyed yourself. No, no, we did. We missed you. But, you know, it was good to be in there for five or six minutes. Tell us about your character, Stella, the former NASA architect. What's she like? Why is she living in this remote cabin in the woods? And why were you drawn to her? Yeah, so the play's about twin sisters. They're both NASA, well, they're both trained NASA astronauts. My twin, Stella, she didn't pass the tests to become an astronaut at the very last minute. So she sort of leaves NASA and goes the complete opposite way, becomes sort of lives in the cabin in the woods off grid falls in love lives this very sort

of holistic wholesome community-based life um anti it you know it's set about 80 years in the future when the world is sort of collapsing and people are not using electricity and there's a big um there's a big movement climate activism movement. So she's living that life. And yeah, I guess I connected with her because first of all, I have a sister. I'm very, very close to. And so that sisterly bond is something that is so fascinating to me.

Well, you know, sibling bonds. And, but also, you know, she's not the typical, she's sort of like the, usually I would play the kind of like forthright, you know, she's a hero, but she's not the most front footed of characters. And so I thought it would be a more interesting part for me to play at this point in my life. And yeah, I'm just adoring it and uh the actors that I'm working with it's a three-hander so Lydia Wilson plays my sister who is just sensational and um a real it's an exquisite performance and um Fainty Baligan who plays my fiance is also just this it's just the most wonderful company and we get to play with each

other it's like working with elite actors it's a real joy and quite a rare thing did you have have you drawn on your relationship with your sister to bring out sibling rivalry yeah i mean because she's an actor as well isn't she she is and my sister and i hannah she's called are incredibly close and we have a really brilliant relationship whereas in this play it's quite fraught the relationship and it's actually quite interesting in terms of twins um we watched this documentary called uh the silent twins which is about these twin sisters who actually they couldn't really bear to be together like they felt like one couldn't exist without the other but at the same time that the other's existence took away

from their place in the world which is really interesting and so I think that's more what this sibling relationship is about although you know the great love that my sister and I share and um is definitely has definitely infused this um and well I know also a bit of research in in the real world about this Dr Peggy Whitson uh the female astronaut who at one point when she returned to earth had been the the woman who'd spent the longest time in space and I believe you you met her the cast met her we did we zoomed her during rehearsals which was I'm amazed that we even managed to to get in touch with her and that she would entertain us um she is the most experienced NASA astronaut in she's done the the most um um uh like time on the ISS and um so we we chatted to her and she has these amazing

inspirational talks now you know she's she's and she trains astronauts but it was really incredible talking to her um just I think because we we wanted we weren't that interested in talking about NASA and um you know what she did up there it was more her and her relationship and her experience to the work and also life on Earth and relationships with people. And she got quite emotional talking to us, talking about this thing called the overlook effect, which is when you've been up in space and you see the Earth from up there

and you feel very, very small and insignificant. It's called the overlook effect. And she's she got quite emotional about it. And that's definitely a part of our play. And I think in terms of climate activism as well, you know, seeing the Earth from up there and and having, you know, we think nasa as this very sort of you know cutting edge technological expensive uh machine uh and yet they still they still you know they have a relationship to the earth which is not many people have you know they've seen it in in this huge way where there are no borders there are no you know you see you see the Earth as it is, which is a beautiful whole thing. And so, yeah, she got very emotional.

But it was invaluable to speak to her, especially for Lydia, who's playing the NASA astronaut. Well, I think also puts it into perspective. We recently had a female astronaut on here talking, yes, about how it is so hard to come back to Earth with a bump and get those relationships back into perspective. And talking of relationships, I know that you're being drawn now, you've said, I've read that you've talked about being drawn to more difficult characters, perhaps more unlikable characters, and those in different ways. I mean, it's obviously a far cry from whether it's St. Trinian's or being

a Bond girl. And I know that you've done many things since and you've also greatly enjoyed being on the stage and actually being live with people. But why is that important for you at this stage of your career? I think it's just because that's my experience of being a woman and all my friends and the way I see the world. And I just think, you know, not all women are likable no no we're not that's okay no we're not and that's and that's great and we should we should depict people uh and you know that's what that's what we're supposed to do is shine a mirror up to society and and what people are really like so yeah I was just gonna say I've often said women need to develop a talent for being disliked because you can be disliked for all sorts of

things that you wouldn't be perhaps if it was a man so it's uh it's it's it's one of those things that is very important to portray isn't it I agree I absolutely agree and the more that we can do it um then the more people will accept that women can be dislikable um but yeah i mean it's all about like just creating more interesting fully fleshed 3d complicated people and um that's that's my interest now i did i did read that this quote has followed you around about being a pain to work with but the full no but quote, it's interesting, it's perverse what's happened to you in this, if you don't mind me saying and asking about this. The full quote was actually about feminism and about standing up for equality.

And I know you've been very involved with the UK's Time Up movement and what that impact hopefully has been having on your industry. But I mean, that's kind of perverse, isn't it? It's sort of horribly ironic that that follows you around now that you're a pain but that wasn't actually what you were talking about I also it's I'm I have a very dry sense of humor and I've learned over the years that that doesn't translate well into print so I was saying oh I'm such a pain like this and it came out as I'm a real pain you know so um yeah it's I don't mind being a bit of a pain but um I'm not really a bit big fat pain well we we've very much enjoyed talking to you

and we hope that you keep going with this run and that you know I think I think I think one critic said it was COVID lunacy you know who's so excited to see what you were going to do and I think it's one of those things that perhaps we'll see a bit more of as we find our way in this new world. Yeah, exactly. But anyone that came on Tuesday, please come back. We would love you to come back. You've got two shows today.

What I saw of it looked great. The set really looked great. So it'll only be improved by people. Gemma Arterton, thank you very much for talking to us. The play is called Walden and happening in very strange times indeed. Well, we have just been talking, I suppose, about the world beyond our own, the planets beyond our own. So who better to be talking to now than the first female Astronomer Royal of Scotland, Professor Catherine Haymans of the University of Edinburgh, just been put in this position. And I did say right at the beginning of the programme, how on earth could she have any form of imposter syndrome or any niggling doubts that somehow she's ticked the wrong box and someone's made a terrible mistake about appointing her.

But I'm told, Catherine, that is sometimes how you felt. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thanks very much for having me on your show. Well, congratulations, first of all. Let's start there. What a thing to have achieved, the first woman to be in this position. How are you doing with that? Have you got used to the mantle? It's extremely exciting. Yes, it's polished by tiara time, I think. I'm really looking forward to being Astronomer Royal for Scotland and using this new title to really share my passion for astronomy with people of Scotland, but also across the whole of the UK. What do you actually do in that role? Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Edinburgh. And my main research is trying to understand the mysterious dark matter and dark energy

that appears to make up about 95% of our universe. But I'll be honest with you, Emma, we don't really understand what it is, which is really exciting because in science, when you don't understand something, it means that there's a really big puzzle to solve and a big discovery to be made. So that's what we're working on. Yes. So you're described as a world leading expert on the dark universe. And if we I mean, what what is out there? What can you say about the dark universe for people like me who know nothing about it?

So I'm sure you've seen those glorious pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope, those glittering galaxies. They're lovely whirlpools. They're glorious. But all of that stuff that we can actually see only makes up about 5% of our universe. And the rest of it we call dark. I think partly because we're maybe Star Wars fans. So we like the concept of dark matter and dark energy but and it's all it's very mysterious are all of our everything we understand about um physics and and science can't really explain these dark entities in our universe um and uh so what i do is i use some of the biggest telescopes in

the world in um chile and hawaii we take really deep images of the universe so I was trying to toss up how many galaxies I've observed and it's over about 100 million now and the light from these galaxies has traveled through about 10 billion light years to get to our telescopes and we use that data to confront lots of different theories about what could be going on in our universe and the most fun thing I get to do Emma is at the moment I'm trying to test out Einstein's theory of gravity itself so it's a it's a fun thing to run up the observatory hill each morning to in Edinburgh to think will I prove Einstein wrong today nothing yet I haven't managed to do it yet, but it's a great, creative and fun job. And I'm really excited with this new title to both share my research, but also share all of the other amazing

things that are happening in astronomy in Scotland. Please, when you get to that top of the hill, and if you do prove Einstein wrong, can you come and tell us about it first? It's really annoying. We keep taking more and more data, but everything just agrees with what he found. Well, let me just come to what you were talking about there with you being part of that very first team to map dark matter and as you've explained it to us, and I think I'm a bit clearer

and I'm trying to get my head around this. You presented this and actually, I know you've talked about this in a talk in a TED talk you were taken back in one session by the aggression of some of the criticism of this work which perhaps will get to what you know people might not be able to relate necessarily to what you do but they will be able to relate to trying to deal with criticism and also how that makes them feel about their own work and perhaps impacts their output and how they work tell us about this particular scenario and what you what you felt so um our team was um this was back when

i wasn't a professor i was a young postdoctoral researcher um actually a brand new mum as well and uh we were really excited to present the first large-scale map of dark matter, five years work in the making, but our results didn't agree with the expectation at the time. And yeah, so I was giving this talk and in fact it was a sort of a summer of conferences where we get to go and give lots of talks at conferences and the first question at the end of each talk, Catherine can you tell us what you've done wrong? I'm like, oh, I don't think I've done anything wrong. Otherwise, I wouldn't be sharing it with you. But it just, that question, what have you done wrong?

Because our work didn't agree with what other people had found, they assumed that I'd done something wrong. So that was, gosh, a good 12 years ago now and uh i moved back to europe and uh started leading one of the big projects for the european southern observatory uh to take more data to confront even more different theories about dark matter and dark energy and i was determined that this time i wasn't going to be asked what have i done wrong and i thought but would be good if i got the same results as us at this time and I thought to myself hang on that's terrible science um if you're always trying to get the same result as people who've come before you then how are we

going to discover new things um so I started really sort of worrying about really questioning my work have you done anything wrong this this this feeling in the community that we weren't doing the right thing um so i sat down with my very dear friend professor sarah bridle who's another fantastic astronomer in the uk and we thought this through how could we make sure that our work was uh was the right results that we weren't sort of somehow twisting our results to to get the result that was expected so we didn't have to face this sort of aggression in our talks and so we came up with this idea that we would blind our data which is a really fun thing to do so I'm sure we've got lots of listeners who have who are working on different things you know how do you decide when to stop when to share your

your conclusions with people it doesn't have to be science whatever you're working on and so so what we did was we we worked out a way that we wouldn't know what our answers were until the last minute so we couldn't um sort of have any sort of it's called confirmation bias i'm not sure if you cared of that before emma but when you you you wait until you get the result that you expect um so that was really exciting uh our latest results came out last year same thing uh we're still getting something that's unexpected there's really mysterious things going on in our universe at the moment uh the cosmology community is almost in turmoil about it um but now possibly because i'm professor possibly because i'm astronomer

or for scotland i'm having less people telling, what have you done wrong, which is a great step forward. Has that changed your, having done it like that and having devised that strategy, is that what you would advise? Has that given you more of that confidence again to go against the grain? Yeah, absolutely. I think in some ways, actually, I think it's made me a better scientist to have met that sort of aggression

because it's meant that I have had to make sure that my work and my team's work is absolutely bulletproof and and as a result I think we're doing better science but what I'm trying to communicate to my colleagues is that you know it's really important that we question each other but there's a way in a language that we can do that that doesn't put people off and one of the things that we're really conscious in in the science is that there are fewer and fewer women as you go higher up in the profession and part of that is because the um aggressive language that's sometimes used when we when we question each other it just puts people off um and it doesn't have to be that way you know it's it's really important to to

question people it's because that's how we move forward in science it's how we move forward as people you know criticism is really important but there's a way of making that criticism constructively and positively um to encourage everyone from all different walks of life to to stay in the field and to carry on because we need all these different voices in science. People from different cultures, different nationalities, they come up problems in different ways. And, you know, when he's trying to solve a really big question like what makes up 95% of the universe, we need to hear these different voices and these different ideas. We do indeed. You just mentioned my area is always drawn to drama, to turmoil. You mentioned colleagues being in turmoil. What are they in turmoil about? Is it, you know, I'm going to have to go there. Obviously, I've had this question. Is it about unidentified flying objects? What's your take on that? these things that we call dark matter and dark energy that we haven't quite got a theory to explain yet but we thought we had it sewn up but our most recent results and also some other results

by Adam Rees who's got a Nobel laureate so people really don't think he's done anything wrong and so our results another Nobel laureate's results are questioning even whether our theories that we thought explained the universe makes sense. So it's a really exciting time to be in astrophysics at the moment. No answer there to my rather silly question, perhaps, about UFOs. I haven't seen any UFOs, although, having said that, we do have a bunch of mega constellations being launched at the moment. This is the new plan to bring broadband to the whole world through these new Starlink satellites. It's a wonderful idea, but unfortunately, it's absolutely catastrophic for astronomers and anyone who loves stargazing.

Because we have these massive, bright satellites going across the sky which makes our life really hard to explore the universe and a lot of people have been seeing them recently because more and more are being launched um each day and are thinking they're ufos but they're not they're just that's as close as i'm going to get you to that i think um but thank you that's actually fascinating as well to hear about and as you say not good for the stargazers and for people in your line of work. I'm sure we'll talk again. Congratulations on being made the first female astronomer royal of Scotland, Professor Catherine Haymans. Very interesting to talk to you. Messages coming in about cancellations.

Just let me read a couple of those before I go to our next guest. Charlotte says, I was due to go to the Royal Albert Hall to sing 12 concerts with the Royal Choral Society in December. Then we found out the choir was having severely restricted numbers. So 12 concerts were cut to two. And then on the day we were due to perform, the government formed another U-turn and everything was closed down. Today, I'm expecting to rehearse for a performance of the Messiah on Sunday. Please cross fingers that this will happen. Quite a few on singing, actually, and performances here.

We've got another one here. I graduated from my BA in Fine Art last summer, except we had no graduation, no degree show, no way to say goodbye to the amazing staff that had supported us over the three years that we were there. This is from Saucher on email. It was crushingly disappointing for all of us having worked for three years towards our show, but we at the same time felt so guilty for being disappointed, because I know in the grand scheme of things our problems paled in comparison. Again, a bit of a theme coming through and Theodore has got quite a few here. A ticket to Australia

to visit my daughter for the first time in ten years cancelled. A ticket, a Christmas present to watch my son run the Berlin Marathon. A new Odeon Unlimited card. All those films and a bus pass. I've used ones. Keep them coming in please and. And also a little bit there about art, which I think we'll return to in just a moment with some of what's

covered in one of the books we're talking about, because two novels published today share many themes. Missing Mothers, an Irish setting, untold family stories. Annie McManus, formerly known as Annie Mack, the broadcaster and DJ of this parish, of the BBC, has written her first novel, Mother, Mother. And the question on the cover, if you spend your life giving everything to the ones you love, do you risk losing yourself along the way? The single mother, Mary, the main character,

has lost herself and her son, TJ, is looking for her. And in Esther Freud's latest novel, I Couldn't Love You More, pregnant Rosaline has no alternative but to leave 60s Soho and go to a mother and baby home in Cork. Kate, the daughter she's forced to give up, traces her steps years later. She, too, is in danger of losing herself. Welcome to both of you. It's lovely to have you here. It's lovely, I'm sure, for both of you on this day with your books, these things you've crafted over time, almost babies in themselves. Esther Freud, if I could start with you.

Writers are sometimes irritated by the question whether it's autobiographical, and in a note up front, you do clear that up. It's a bit of your mother's history and how it fed into this book? Yes, I think a lot of writers are very irritated by the idea that their book is autobiographical and somehow maybe there's an inference that that's easier. But with my work, I always like to feel it's, I've sort of owned the story in some way. So I'm always looking for a way into a story. And with this book, I started by looking at sort of

the way mothering and love has changed over generations of women. So I kind of used my own chronological, my own life, my mother's and my mother's mother as a sort of starting point. And I started to really then think a lot about my mother who, when she became pregnant, unmarried at 18, society dictated that this was just a shameful and dangerous thing to have done. Her family had just moved to Ireland. My grandmother was Irish. And she was living in London with my father. And she kept that news from them.

And they didn't actually know that she had any children for quite a few years until she had two little girls. And maybe I don't know exactly what age we were. I was the younger one. And the news got out. But so that was one of the things that fed into the story that I created around the idea of secrets and lies and the way that mothering and sort of romantic love, everything is sort of societally affected and the way it sort of comes out through the generations. Yes, well, Annie, I know that this novel doesn't come from your own life,

but it is dedicated to your mother, Rosetta, beautiful name. Why did you want to write about mothers and motherhood? So, unlike Esther, I didn't really have a way into the story it very much just started with me just just trying to write um and the first scene that came out was this scene of a a young fella in Belfast drunk and kind of slightly hallucinating um at seeing lights and it was actually the lights of a police car and that was the first thing I wrote and then from then it kind of spider webbed out and became this thing and uh I mean I am a novice I'm just learning how to how to write books and have a lot of learning to do but I guess that was the biggest surprise for me was the idea of this of this story arriving rather than knowing it before

uh it was written well I think also just it's interesting to hear how people do come to their stories. But picking up on this theme, Esther, of how mothering has changed through the generations, we're only hearing in the news yesterday about the forced adoptions which took place here in other countries. This is in very recent, shocking history. A lot of detail, very emotional. It's hugely moving in your book, Esther, about the Catholic mother and baby homes. Did you know a lot about them before? I knew very little.

And just as Annie was saying, you go on such a journey with a book. So I started out writing about love, really, at the beginning and rather joyful scenes. So scattered around the 20th century of different falling in love episodes from the different points of view of the different characters. But then I started to think, okay, so I need to have a plot. And once I followed my plot and started to really wonder about my character, Rosaline, that I'd created, and that she would ultimately go into one of these homes and give up her baby, which would create the character of Kate, who I wanted to write about adoption. I did my research. And oh, it's an extraordinary thing when you become really involved with the story is that every it seems to be everywhere.

And I started writing this book in 2015. I didn't realise that that was the year that the commission in Ireland on mother and baby homes was first begun and is actually only just earlier this year been published. So my sort of trajectory of discovering all the research that I poured into this book was sort of almost as everyone also was discovering it. the more fascinating things came up online. Actually, on Woman's Hour once, I had an absolutely brilliant story about a woman who'd managed to find her mother. And I used some elements of that in my book. So it was as if it was unfolding as I was writing. And that was just the luck of the time I chose to write this book.

Because, I mean, Annie, to pick up on that point, a lot has changed, but a lot hasn't about all of this. And I know in your book, you know, Ireland's changed so much in terms of religion, but, absence is huge throughout the book and I kind of wanted her absence to inform a lot of Mary's turmoil I suppose and to kind of be emblematic you know just to kind of talk about the aftermath of these things not just what's happening but what happens after how families and generations are affected by them but yeah in Ireland it's it's been visceral like even being an Irish person living in London. You know, you look back and there's wonderful things that have happened in Ireland that make me so proud to be Irish.

You know that the abortion referendum, the gay marriage referendum, all of these things. like this and it's a real reminder of just the work that Ireland has to do to try and detach itself from from the kind of uh just just from religion being completely entrenched in every aspect of society um so yeah uh I mean everyone in Ireland I mean I know two people that are directly affected by mother and baby home stories and everyone knows someone who has a story and it never ever stops being totally heartbreaking i mean sorry well i was going to say just to come to again this theme of of motherhood between your your writing here do you do you think and actually to pick up on on annie's point about you losing yourself in this i actually when reading your book as to really felt like the love story was between the women, you know, and that generational thing, that theme. And it's such a strong bond. You know, the men were there, but they were not what you were focusing on.

Yes, very quickly, having thought I wanted, really wanted to write about love, which is a theme that I haven't really focused on. And this is my ninth novel. Although it's always there, of course, among everything, I found myself quite quickly realising that I was really focusing on the love between each mother and each daughter, and as it went down the generations, until we get to Kate, who's sort of my generation, and her story set in the 90s. And I wanted to look and kind of be quite playful around the whole subject of the way my generation have become totally obsessed with their children. And that the sort of loyalty that maybe my grandmother's generation had to a husband.

And, you know, this marriage is for life, that the real relationship is with the children. And so Kate has a daughter, Freya, and she, because of her own background and feeling pretty isolated from family, she wants to be the perfect mother. And so I really enjoyed writing about something that I know so well when you try so hard that, of course, it goes wrong quite easily because nothing should be so perfect. No. And Annie, I can't have you on here without acknowledging that you recently announced your departure from your amazing BBC show on BBC Radio 1.

And actually, you said you wanted to be really honest about why you were doing that. And it's linked to being a mum. It is. Yeah, it is. I mean, one of the reasons why is because my youngest son is starting school in September and my show is in the evening time. And I just wanted to be around, having not been around for the first one for the last six years. I wanted to be around this time. And I've beened actually with how that's been perceived um I felt like a bit defensive about the decision I suppose in a way where I've always been very pro working mom the thing is I am still working um I'll just be working in a different way and hopefully making work work for my schedule a bit more but um I loved what you said I loved what you said if I can where you talked about the fact

that you had one and not a lot changed and then you had the second and you kept going and you're sort of watching the clock every day as you have to go off because it was in an evening program slot I know you did lots of other things and you know I think a lot of people can relate to that you try and keep it going and then and then you go another time if you can if you're lucky enough and and then you're in a different place altogether and I'm sure that the pandemic has also made people think differently again very much so you know when something so seismic can happen just just like that I think you know your your attitude to change changes it becomes less terrifying um and I really was uh just interested in the idea of doing something quite drastic and and seeing how it felt and so far I mean I haven't left yet I've

still got a couple of months but so far it's felt good and I'm quite enjoying the idea of leaving blind and not really knowing what's next and just kind of giving myself a bit of space to figure it out. Esther has this love story or writing this love story between the women, has it changed your view on kind of relationships, mothering, all of that? Have you come to a different place with it? Well, I guess for me, because I lost my mother about 10 years ago, it gave me a real sort of luxurious space to really think about her, to think about my grandmother whose letters I had kept.

She'd written to me all through my life. And I used some of her letters, just reading them to kind of reconnect with her character and who she was and to see how unbelievably steeped in Catholicism she was. Because all her letters, almost at the end of almost every line, there was PG, please God, or GW, God willing. And it sort of brought her very essence back to me. And the sort of, I think it made me look at how much sort of sucker she got from her faith, how it sustained her, and how for my mother it was a very divisive thing, and how for sort of the character of Kate, who's not really brought up in a religious way, how she looks for sort of spirituality and meditation, and that everyone needs to have something. So I guess I was thinking a lot about mothers and

daughters. But yes, it made me think a lot about my own daughter, and who I have a very sort of intense relationship with, and quite complicated. And I have two sons whose my relationship with them is very straightforward. So I became really fascinated about. Has she read it and given you any pointers as to what you can improve between the two of you? We're talking about criticism throughout the show and how you deal with it. Actually she has read it and she was rather yeah very warm and appreciative and unusually little criticism there. No, no, I wasn't saying it had to be criticism. We've got a great message about that, which I'll come to just in a moment before we end.

But Annie, you said, you know, this is a whole new terrain for you. How are you finding this? You know, putting your words onto paper, you're used to them coming out, telling us what music to listen to. It's a very different experience, I imagine. It's very different. That kind of shift from being someone who curates music and lineups and all of that to then being the person who's like the creator it's it's it yeah there is a real feeling of vulnerability and total fear of reviews and critics and all that but

I'm just trying to like enjoy uh hold on to how much I enjoyed writing it and just also just keep writing and kind of facing forwards and moving forwards. Well, it feels very formal about Annie McManus, not Annie Mack. Thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you. The first novel for Annie, Mother, Mother. And Esther Freud, thank you to you. I couldn't love you more.

It's a lovely, lovely sentiment that. Really lovely. I think when you sort of want to hold on to that thought with the relationships in your own life. So thank you to you for coming on. Thanks so much. A message here. Tell Catherine Homans, our previous guest there, not to worry. Criticism is a sign that you're onto something.

Aggressive language equals insecurity. And you can just ignore such people and focus on the genuine inquiring person. Basically, some academics should not be academics. Keep up the good work. That was us, of course, talking to the Professor Catherine Haymans of the University of Edinburgh earlier about how she sort of got over some of her fears and also the feeling of imposter syndrome that so many people can have. And also, you've been getting in touch again about how you're dealing with cancellations. I think it's safe to say you're done with them.

You're absolutely done with them and no more to come. So thank you for those. And there's another message here about choirs, hopefully now getting back to normal, which I just wanted to come to, saying our small choir from Christina, which was joyously and safely started rehearsals again on May 17th and on May 18th, the government changed their minds, deeming amateur choirs more deadly than say huffing and puffing in an exercise class. But hopefully back to normal. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Charlie, I have been so excited to speak to you. Hello, Myrna. Hello, how are you, Joe? I'm Joe Wicks, and I'm back for the second series of my podcast that's all about sharing ways to help you live a happier and healthier life. Doing a bit of research and apparently you're into something called inversion therapy where you hang upside down. What's that, like a bat?

Exactly. I do it every day. You know, it all just sort of... Clears your head a little bit. Yeah. I get to speak to some heroes of mine, from the legend that is Sir Tom Jones, who I'm literally obsessed with,

to one of our most successful UK athletes, Sir Mo Farah. You have to be smart and control the race in the way that you want to it just settles me it organises my brain meditation I think is the cultivation

of a space within you that if you don't turn to it life will get in the way subscribe now on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode and you can also

check out every single episode in video format on BBC iPlayer. The Joe Wicks Podcast for BBC Radio 4. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.