Woman's Hour - Gender guidance for schools, Eva Brookes, Kim Jong Un's daughter

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

The Government yesterday published new guidance for schools in England on what to do when children question their gender. It says schools should not initiate steps towards social transitioning when pupils change their name or pronouns, and that toilets and changing rooms should be protected spaces, used according to biological sex. Branwen Jeffreys, the BBC's Education and Family Editor, joins Clare McDonnell to discuss this latest guidance.The one-child policy in China spanned a period of over 35 years. It led to large numbers of girls being abandoned by their birth mothers. And for many children, it’s had a lasting impact on their lives. Eva Brookes has been reflecting on what that policy meant for her as she was adopted from China as a baby. Her new podcast series, Made in China, is out this week. In it she delves into her life in the UK and speaks to transracial children like herself, along with her own parents, and explores how it has shaped her own identity.North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has selected his daughter as his heir, South Korea's spy agency told lawmakers yesterday. Kim Ju Ae, who is believed to be 13, has in recent months been pictured beside her father in high-profile events including a visit to Beijing in September, her first known trip abroad. BBC Seoul correspondent Jake Kwon tells Clare about how surprising this selection is and what we know about her.Covent Garden is nowadays a centre for high-end designer shops, theatres and award-winning restaurants. However back in the 1700s it was a hotspot for taverns, coffee houses and prostitution. This is the colourful backdrop for the fourth novel from Louise Hare. Called The House of Fallen Sisters, it follows the story of Sukey, a mixed-race girl and an orphan, who has recently moved to London to live with her guardian - the guardian also happens to be a madam who runs a brothel and Sukey knows that once puberty hits, she too will join the women earning their keep. Louise tells Clare what drew her to this story. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. It has taken eight years, but schools in England now have gender guidance from government on everything from single-sex toilet spaces to whether children should be allowed to choose and use their own pronouns.

It includes the findings from the 2024 review by Baroness Cass and is statutory. So how will this all play out in practice? We'll go through it all with our BBC Education editor shortly. China's one-child policy ran for over 35 years. The consequence was a large number of girls being abandoned by their birth mothers and many being adopted by white couples here in the UK. Eva Brooks was one such baby, and she's now made a podcast series made in China for the BBC.

BBC reflecting on what that policy meant to her ever joins us live this morning. Hard to believe when you look at modern-day Coffin Garden, but it was once bordering on a slum and a hotbed of prostitution. It is the backdrop for Louise Hare's new novel and centres on a mixed-race orphan, Suu Kyi, plunged into this world. Louise is going to join us in the studio too. Also this morning, it appears North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has selected his daughter as his heir. She's only 13 years old. We'll get the latest from our correspondent in Seoul on that. And as we approach Valentine's weekend,

if you're single and planning on heading to the supermarket, would you be up for signaling that you are open to talk to fellow shoppers by choosing a red shopping basket as a signal to them? It's a device one of the big four supermarkets is employing this weekend. So tell me, lift our romantic spirits on this rainy Friday morning. How did you meet your current life partner? Middle Isle of Aldi, maybe. Seat next to you on a plane.

The more out there, the better. Do get in touch with me this morning. You can text. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour, and you can email us through our website. Looking forward to your tales of romance this morning here on BBC Women's Hour.

But let's start the program today with this. The government yesterday published new guidance for schools in England on what to do when children question their gender. It says schools should not initiate steps towards social transitioning when pupils change their name or pronouns and that toilets and changing rooms should be protected spaces used according to biological sex. Well, let's talk through this now with Brownwin-Jeffries,

the BBC's Education and Family Editor. Welcome, Brownwin. Good morning, Claire. For those not following the story and there's been a lot to it before we got to this point, remind us how we got to this guidance coming about. So most people

will be aware, particularly women's and our listeners, that we have been in this hugely contested social debate over the difference between biological sex and gender identity over the last 10 years. And like many societal things, it has flowed into

schools. They were promised guidance in England in 2018. No guidance was forthcoming, although before the last election, about six months before in December 2023, the then conservative government put out a set of guidance, which was then just not implemented before the election because of time. So Labor now, after taking quite a long time with questions about whether they were anxious about delaying and hitting the right balance, have put out proposals. And they have folded them into a core set of legally binding advice for schools, which is called Keeping Children Safe at Schools. So it sits along all the other bits which are known as safeguarding, which start from the first premise of a child. welfare and their well-being and what's best for them.

Right. So let's get into what the guidance actually says. Talk us through it. So I think let's start with the majority of parents who may have children who are not gender questioning. There is some clarity in this, in which it says spaces which can be designated as single sex, toilets, changing rooms, residential accommodation on trips or boarding accommodation

can be and should be with no exceptions designated according to biological sex. So a very clear alignment with the broader law in that area. On sports, it says that single-sex sports can be protected where there is an issue around safety, so you can think about contact sports. It's worth noting that elsewhere in this guidance, it also makes it very, very clear

that schools have a duty to consider fairness in sport. So, for example, whether a girl would be at disadvantage in a particular sport towards a boy. And as children go through school, whilst they might start off doing physical activities together in primary school, generally going through into secondary school, many sports are separated, and it says school should follow the advice of sports bodies as they develop their position on this.

For the minority of children who are in that position of questioning their gender, this guidance says it should be approached through the lens of what a child asks for may not be in their best interests. and it is the best interests test which is key to this. It says that parents should be involved in almost every case unless there are concerns about the child's well-being and safety. It does not define that more closely. That's a broad category.

For primary aged children, it's clear that it's mirroring the cast guidance and it says that social transitioning, for example, where a girl might ask to use the male pronoun of he or boy's name, wear boys' clothes. It should only be agreed in very rare cases. And that as children go on, while some may question their identity or want to be different or try out different things as they're younger, what tends to happen according to this guidance is that as children go over, there will be a smaller number for whom that feeling intended.

advice and for many it will go away. So holding a flexible approach that what a child wants at one point could be different as they explore other things. And it crucially, it says you should consider what else is going on for them. Is there something else going on that requires clinical advice, neurodivergence, mental health issues, something that's going on around bullying or in their social environment that you should also take into account? And to go back to primary school, this differs. this suggestion is slightly different, isn't it, from the Conservatives' earlier draft version on children in primary schools? That's right.

And I think that's really where the dividing line is. Under the previous draft, the Conservatives' proposals when they were in government were that alternate pronouns should not be used in primary school for any children, which is a key indicator of social transitioning and also something which Dr. Hillary Cass now, Baroness Cass, has been very preoccupied by, that that could potentially, social transitioning can potentially put a child on a one-way track

and she advises against that. So this current guidance says social transitioning should be considered really very carefully, exceptionally in primary school and it does not specify quite as, it doesn't ban, if you like, the use of pronouns, alternate pronouns in primary school. It does suggest exactly the same workaround

is used in both sets of guidance, which is where it's tricky, you're in a situation where you're navigating it, a school could consider using a child's first name. That is in both the December 23 guidelines, and in the draft guidance which came out from the government yesterday for consultation. I know you've been speaking to Dr. Hilary Cass at Branwyn, and as you said, this guidance has been backed by the author of the landmark cast review.

You interviewed her yesterday. So let's hear a clip. This is her response to this latest guidance. I think it's very good that they have put it within the statutory framework of keeping children safe in school, that positions it really well. And it's complex. It's much more complex setting up guidance in school than it is for me to suggest how things should be in the NHS. And given that complexity, I think they've done a good job. So how should schools approach social transitioning or any requests around that in the light of this guidance? The more people that you can get around

the table who have knowledge of that young person, the better. So, you know, if there is a school counsellor involved under certain circumstances, the designated safeguarding lead, the parent, the clinician, having more heads round it is really important. And it's not just about the decision-making, but it's also how you're going to look after the young person going forward. What comes across quite strongly in the guidance is that proceeding with a social transition is going to be very much the exception rather than the rule. I mean, we think that really it's quite a small number of children for whom this would be an appropriate course of action. There we go, Hilary Cass, responding.

But we also, they're having critics of this latest guidance. Let's hear from one of them now, Baroness Amanda Spielman, Conservative peer and former head of Ofsted, speaking on Radio Falls today program this morning. There's far too much leeway for schools unilaterally to decide to permit a child to transition while keeping it secret from their parents. as Cass said social transition is not a neutral act and parents may be absolutely right to tell their child that they must wait

but a child who doesn't want to wait may them be encouraged by peers, by activists, campaign groups, influencers, whoever, to go and tell their school that they feel unsafe at home in order to put pressure on the school to allow them to transition. So what should the guidance say, do you think? Well, the guidance should say that this is, a decision which should never be taken without parents' knowledge and agreement.

And if a school believes that a child is unsafe and that no conversation with parents can happen, the right thing to do at that point is a referral to social services. So, Brannwin, clearly some strong views that this guidance doesn't go far enough in protecting children. So I think it's a difference between what Baroness Spilman is advocating. is an approach which is really very directive for schools that doesn't give them much discretion to decide case by case because of the concerns and the evidence around social transitioning,

not being a neutral act, that it is putting a child on potentially a path, which they may and may not want to step off later. So she clearly wants schools to be told that they should never, do this without speaking to parents. What the guidance published yesterday for consultation says is in the overwhelming majority of cases, parents should be involved. And it explicitly says that parents have the leading role in their children's lives and that it is not helpful to not have them involved in these discussions. It allows some discretion for schools about

about when those rare cases are. So the anxiety in the debate is, is there too much leeway? Will schools manage this carefully? And what about the societal pressures, which she mentioned, and the fact that children may be going on to social media, they may be getting advice from elsewhere,

they may be bringing that into school to say, I don't feel safe talking to my parents about this. I don't want you to tell them. Just finally, Brown, when the guidance is open for consultation. So how long does that last and who could input into it? Anyone can input into this. So members of the public, parents, school governors, teachers, many of the different groups that have a strong feeling or stake in this debate from LGBT plus groups to gender critical groups, they will all be putting in their view about whether this lands in the right place.

It runs for 10 weeks and the intention is that the government will then bring in this legally binding guidance from September this year for all schools in England. Brownwyn Jeffries, thank you so much for joining us. That is Bramwin Jeffries, the BBC's Education and Family Editor. And obviously, we love to hear your views on this. Do get in touch.

You can text the programme 84844. Now, bringing you a story now of the One Child Policy in China. It spanned a period of over 35 years. It led to a large numbers of girls being abandoned by their birth mothers and for many children it had a lasting impact on their lives. Eva Brooks has been reflecting on what that policy meant for her. She was adopted from China as a baby by Moira and Chris, a couple from Essex. And Eva has a new podcast series. It's called Made in China. It's out this week. In it, she delves into her childhood and early adulthood here in the UK. She speaks to women like her, trans-racial adopted children and her own parents about her experience growing up and how it shaped her identity today. Welcome to the program, Eva.

Hi, thanks for having me. Great to have you here. Now, the podcast series you've made is part of the BBC Sounds Audio Lab. It's an accelerator program designed to bring on early career podcasters. You pitched the idea. It got commissions. Congratulations. What made you want to talk about your life in such a personal way? I think as I was getting older I was kind of gaining the courage to look into this part of my life without apprehension and I think a main motivator was wanting to connect with people who could relate or similar people to me and I think the medium of podcasting is such a good way to do that because when you're listening you can really feel like you're with the person Yeah, and you do go there. You talk about your life, you talk about a lot of conflicts of emotions that you have. Tell people your story then. What happened to you? Yep, so I was found on a road leading up to an orphanage in a place called Nan Chong, a city in southwest China.

I was in an orphanage and then I was with foster parents before adoptive parents. I'm trying to condense it. Yes. Clearly a lot of doing. And how did your parents come to choose you? Tell us about that part of the story. Yeah, so they'd already adopted in 1998 to get my older sister, Lara. They'd always wanted a family of their own.

They'd tried naturally, it feels awkward to say, but that didn't work. They tried IVF. They tried adopting in the UK, but because my mum was older at the time, so she was in her 40s, they said that they gave the babies to more younger mothers who could deal with the late nights

and if she was willing to take a sibling group but she didn't feel equipped to do that because she's never had kids before and then she I think she saw in a newspaper that China were lowering the age or no extending the age that they were allowing

for families to adopt from China and then the social worker put her in touch with another couple who'd already done it. And then they went to monthly meetings. They adopted my sister. And then I think because my mum was an only child, they didn't want Lara to be on her own. And so then they got me. And it was like rounds of paperwork.

And instead of choosing the child, I was more assigned to them. Right. And my mum says that she was told from the adoptive agency that I was the first one from the orphanage in Nan Chong put up for international adoption. But that could just try and her trying to make this special. Thank you so much. You are special. Thank you so much for going through all of that.

I mean, the one child policy, you never met your birth parents. I mean, do you wonder about the circumstances? That's a quite a desperate thing to have to do to leave a baby at the side of the road, isn't it? Yeah, that was definitely a main driver as well of wanting to do this podcast, kind of like the historical curiosity of not just what China's government were thinking at the time that they created the policy, but how do I understand that world to humanise whom my birth parents may have been? Because I think with the Western perspective that I grew up on was one child policy, girls weren't wanted, that's why you're here. But I had so many questions, like why? Why were girls not as valued?

why did they come to this conclusion that you have to limit the number of children per family and maybe part of me wasn't willing to accept that it was an easy decision for my birth mum and dad to say oh well it's not a son get rid of it and I needed confirmation to know that they were dealing with like impossible they were dealing with a repressive system

and kind of impossible decisions and do you feel you've got that you got that understanding we won't give any spoilers away If you feel you got that, to some way further down that road through this investigation? Yeah, I think they've definitely kind of, we kind of joked about this line, but my birth parents have popped into 3D because they've always been like an abstract concept. Like they're there, but I have no idea who they are and I don't really know the world they lived in. But now I feel like I can understand them a bit better and thus maybe myself.

Yeah, and that's what it's all about, really, isn't it, in the end of life? Let's have a little clip from the podcast now. In the series, you have a few conversations with your parents. So let's hear a short clip now. This is where your parents talk about being clear with you from the start about the fact that you were adopted. This is Moira and Chris. You know, we'd say to you very early on

before you'd have any understanding of the word adoption and what it really meant because we didn't want it then to come as a surprise. I mean, hardly. Hardly hide it. But, you know, I think it was things like that that we really thought about that we felt were important. That's hilarious. I mean, they were obviously really open with you from the start.

But what was it like discussing in more depth your whole story with them for this series? Yeah, for this series, I actually found out a lot more than I didn't know before. I'd grown up on books about adoptions like I remember being a child. and it was just normalized that women would fly to China to pick up their babies, which sounds like as such an alien concept. But my mum and dad are, I think they're really proud of what, like, the experience,

and that's why they were willing to talk about it. And I feel like I can talk about thinking about my birth parents and even the foster parents I had without them feeling like they're not my real parents because they're the ones who parented me, they're the ones who raised me. But I know for a while I was a bit anxious about kind of the gratitude I have for the life I've been given here, but also kind of looking at that part of me that is kind of a question mark

and wanting to fill in a little bit of the gaps. Get the sort of 3D pop-up as you say. You spoke to other transracial adoptees for the series, including Jackie Clibbon, who was adopted from Vietnam. And you've already mentioned your sister, but what was it like to go outside of your family and hear those stories? It was, it felt really intimate with Jackie because I think she'd been, she was at the other end of her identity journey. So she had, she had this self-acceptance that I really admired. And it gave me hope that I'm going to reach that stage and she has kids now.

And I think one of the best parts about making this podcast was the people I got to. to meet and speak to and relate to and share these experiences with. And her story is really unique because she was part of Operation Baby Lift and that's like a whole other thing that was going on aside from the one child policy. But despite like the circumstances being different, the feelings we shared that kind of search for a place to call home was the same. and that felt really human. You talk about the racism you experienced as a child

and the way you tried to get ahead of it by poking fun at yourself before others could. And I guess that's a natural defence mechanism, but at the same time must have been quite exhausting, was it? Yeah, Kate, I mean, even now, self-deprecating humour is usually my go-to. But I think now at 25 I'm realizing the jokes can really seep into your consciousness and you start to believe it. Even though I'm trying to deflect, I'm actually identifying with these, with, you know, putting yourself down.

And I think that's something I learned through writing this script because there were so many jokes I would make about myself. But then me and my exec Peggy would kind of think, I don't need to say that about myself. Like I know I'm trying to soften the blow of the sensitivity, but actually, that's one too many jokes. jokes stopped. And that's why this podcast has been such a great thing personally, not just because of being able to explore my adoption in more depth, but reflect on kind of what I've let influence me. Yeah. I mean, because you had a bar job, didn't you, in Essex? Yeah. You go into that as well. And you're very exposed, aren't you, behind a bar? What did you have to deal with there? Yeah, that was quite difficult because when there,

there's alcohol involved, people's inhibitions are lowered. And so I did receive quite a lot of, I don't know, it's weird because it felt like compliments, but it still felt negative, because it was people couldn't really talk to me without bringing up the way I looked in my race. And I guess it, because like in Essex it was something like that may be special and made me different. And there are positive ways I can look at that. But it did feel. feel like it was inescapable. And people, some people in the pub felt very passionately about, like, explaining their views on China to me as if I were the spokeswoman.

And I don't, I don't, I didn't really know quite what to say. And I think that played into my, uh, struggle with looking Chinese and feeling like I had to know a lot about China. and because I don't, there's something, there's a disconnect there, like my internal view and the external projections couldn't connect with each other. And so I just felt to be it. Well, indeed, I mean, exactly.

Nobody represents an entire country simply because of their ethnicity. But I can see, you know, how you were conflicted over that one. We're going to play another clip from the podcast now. Your parents, again, talking about how upsetting it was for you to initially come home with them. The people who'd been sort of fostering you, they were getting very upset. So there was a lot of crying going on.

And then you were crying and you were upset because you'd been with them a month or two and you'd now been taken away from them and handed to another set of people, strange people. So it must have been extremely confusing for you. You were just a year, you were 13 months old effectively, a year and half a month. Do you think those early years, do you have any memory

of them, how do you feel it impacted, how you started life in this country? I think when I look at the relationships I have now, I'm realizing that my kind of survival instinct to adapt to my environment quickly really is prominent. And I think that's also played into a role into why I'm so clueless about who I am, because I think from like being kind of not being with my birth parents and then being in an orphanage, you know, you have to adapt. I don't remember it, but I'm presuming I had to adapt mentally, maybe not physically. And then foster parents getting acclimatized and then kind of having that taken out of my control

and then having these new people, new world, new sounds and smells. And I had to adapt to that. And so I think in my adulthood, I'm adaptable perhaps to my own detriment to the point where I'm, I need to... I don't know how to put it, but... You're talking about people pleasing, just fitting into any situation, making other people feel comfortable before yourself? Yeah. Because you always had to, I guess. You always had to fit in.

Yeah, and I think that's just a me thing. I think that's just how I kind of absorbed it, because I... I met this, another adoptee called Mia McGra, and she's really confident and really self-assured. So I think I just maybe am naturally like that, but I think that's learned behavior. And I think I want to have a better relationship with who I really am and get, I guess, not adapt less,

but have those morals and values that are firm. Yes, and what do you think you've learned, finally, what have you learnt from going through this process and what do you hope other people coming to this podcast will take from it? I think I've learned, which is, it's a little cliche, but I think self-acceptance, owning my story and being proud of it

rather than kind of embarrassed of it. And I really hope people can resonate with any of the thoughts and feelings I had whether the thing itself that's affecting them is different. I hope that in the vulnerability that I showed, they can feel seen. Anyone can just feel less alone because I think I'm,

I strive to be the voice that I craved growing up. Well, you've certainly achieved that in this podcast. It is a remarkable series. Eva, thank you so much for dropping by the Women's Our Studios. Eva Brooks there. and you can listen to the Made in China podcast series. It is out now on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks so much for dropping by.

Thank you. Thanks so much. Now, we're going to tell you about a pretty remarkable podcast as we approach another podcast as we approach Valentine's Day this weekend. CBB's Parenting Download has been looking at romantic relationships and how these can look and feel very different when you become parents. Joining presenters Katie Thistleton and Gunver B are former Gogglebox star Scarlett Moffat, relationship coach Haley Quinn and psychologist Dr. Lalita Sogali.

We talk about Valentine's Day, but why do we put so much pressure on just because it's Valentine's Day? I feel like Valentine's Day is, I dare I say it, every day, but it's like the love is there all the time. Why do we sometimes feel that pressure just because it's Valentine's Day? It's 14th of February. We have to do something. First of all, I would say just drop the expectations. drop the pressure. Every single time we're in a different season. And whatever season you're in, just really embody that and understand where are you guys at

and make plans around that rather than thinking that you have to fit into what society wants of you, fit into where you're at rather than what everyone else wants from you. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I just can't really be bothered with it. We sort of go, oh, should we do cards? We'll do cards. Yeah, what, Scarlet, what will you do?

Do you do, Valentine's? I'll be honest, I'm more excited for pancake dinner. Yeah. If I'm totally honest, we'll be making more of a thing of pancake day. Yeah, a pancake day and then Easter for the Easter egg. I think sometimes the issue is we look on social media and there's like people walking in the house and they've got 100 red balloons or they've got 4 cases of roses and stuff like that. And I think sometimes like comparison is the thief of joy, isn't it? And I think we just have to just remember that just because we're not getting grand gestures like that.

It doesn't mean that the person doesn't love us as much. Oh, totally. Yeah. Well, for much more conversation and advice on romance after kids, dating as a single parent, and a few Valentine's tips, you can find the full episode by searching for CBB's parenting. Download. Talking of Valentine's, thank you for all the texts coming in on how you met your other half, because one of the major four supermarkets, if you go there this weekend,

you can pick up a red shopping basket. And that means, apparently, so don't pick it up. by accident that you are open to talk to other people in the supermarket. So how did you meet your other partner? This one. Like many doctor-doctor couples, my husband and I met in the dissection room where we'd been allowed to, we've been allocated the same body. We spent a minimum of four hours a week there. So we really got to know our dissection buddies well. We're now heading into our 32nd wedding anniversary. So it all worked out well. Love over a cadavera. I met my partner of 28 years at a union barbecue.

I was on a bouncy castle. He was walking towards it across the field. I can still remember what he was wearing and thinking he was hot. He, however, thinks it was him on the bouncy castle and me walking across the field. But he is wrong. That's age for you. And this one for now, I met my husband at a Christmas party in 1989, but I thought he was obnoxious. So I gave him the wrong phone number.

In February the next year, he put a card on my car window. My flatmate said, give him. I'm a break, and five kids later, we are still together. Good advice from your flatmate. Do text me, you still have time, 84844. How You met your life partner. Do get in touch. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has selected his daughter as his heir. South Korea's spy agency told lawmakers yesterday. Kim Ju-I, who's believed to be 13, has in recent months been pictured beside her father in high-profile events,

like a visit to Beijing in September, her first known trip abroad. So how surprising is this selection and what do we know about her? Well, I'm joined now by Jake Kwan, BBC Seoul correspondent from our Seoul Bureau. Jake, welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. Okay, so tell us more about her. Well, you know, for a while, you know, we didn't know much about her. and then one day she appears on the state media holding her father's hand,

and there was no explanation given on who this person is. So the speculation went wild. And now we know that she is likely a 13-year-old teenager, and as far as we understand, she's being groomed to take over from her father as the next leader of North Korea. How unusual is it for a woman, a female, to be groomed in this way for leadership? Well, we knew that we have heard from the South Korea, a spy agency that she was being groomed, but what we heard yesterday is they went even further

saying that she is now being internally selected as the heir, and she seems to be even giving some pointers on what to do with policy matters to people around her. So it's a huge step. Now, as a woman, all that we understand about North Korean society, when we speak to the defectors and other people who study North Korea, it is a deeply patriarchal society. So when there was a speculation that she would be taking over the power. A lot of the escapies, you know, they voice their skepticism that this could happen. It seemed quite absurd that a woman would be given the top job. And this is a country that is really dedicated to a single individual at the top. He has the absolute power. So for the whole country to fall in line and follow a woman was considered very far-fetched. But she is someone

who carries the bloodline of the pectu bloodline of her father. And this is something considered very important in the North Korean society. The lineage is very important. So, you know, with her father's absolute power pushing her, and perhaps she does have a chance. Does he have any other children? Well, what we understand is that from the Korea spy agency saying that he likely has an older son. But we haven't heard or seen anything about this person. You know, it is possible that he is somewhere hidden away like his father was. I mean, Jim Jong-un himself was educated in Lozen, in Switzerland, in his youth. So it's very possible that this hidden son is going through education somewhere in Europe,

somewhere in America, who knows. But because we haven't heard anything about him and because now Kim Jong-un seems to be grooming this supposedly second child, a woman as the next heir, perhaps there is no this hidden son. Perhaps Kim Ju-Ei is the only child of Kim Jong-un. It is simply a mystery. I mean, it's difficult to you know, express how much of mystery North Korean family is. I mean, her name, Kim Ju-Ei, at her age, none of this was really officially confirmed by North Korea. We only know her name because Dennis Rodman, the NBA star, told him the British media about this after he held her in his arms when he was visiting Pyongyang.

And her age 13 is merely a speculation from the intelligence agency. How are women viewed in North Korea? Where do they fit in society? What rights do they have? Now, as far as we understand from the escapies and the researchers who study North Korea, it is really a deeply, like I said, a patriarchal society. Men have their traditional gender roles. They go to the factories.

They do the work while women stay at home and take care of. the family. Now, women do get quite a high education, but as far as we understand, the sexual crime rate is very high. Now, there are some very prominent, powerful women in North Korean government. Like, it's foreign, a foreign minister is a woman. And of course, Kim Jong-un has his powerful sister, Kim Jong, who is effectively the country spokesperson. But these are very few and far between. And, you know, all that we understand about North Korea, when we speak to people who were who were there, saying that, you know, once they came to South Korea, they didn't even realize that women could have something called a human rights.

This was not even a concept that was familiar to them when they were in North Korea. So, you know, our best understanding is that the situation is simply not good. I mean, what do people think of this as a potential new leader? She is young. She is female. Are there hopes that she could, it's early to say, obviously, but that she could be a reformer? One would imagine that's not what she's being molded for. No, I mean, there is no evidence to suggest that once she, you know, rise to the throne, that she will start introducing feminist progressive policies.

You know, we spoke to people inside North Korea who came out, and, you know, they would refer to when Kim Jong-un had rise to the throne. There was a lot of hope around his taking over the power because he's a young man in his 30s. He was educated in Switzerland. and that he would become this reformist figure who would open up the country to trade and outside, you know, culture and influence and really turn North Korea around from this very much hermit kingdom. But now that dream was dashed in very few years. He killed his own uncle in a purge, who was very much a reformist figure.

And then since then, he's been introducing all kinds of laws to really clamp down on any culture, any outside influence in his country. So really it's hard to imagine what kind of policy, hard to expect and start guessing what kind of policy that Kim Juey would implement once she rise to the throne. But what is likely to happen is that this 13-year-old person, when she goes onto the, you know, occupy the office, she will be given an absolute power to really mold and shape the country in whichever way that she likes. And just on a more broader point, you mentioned you get little snapshots and insights into what is going on inside North Korea only when people escape. People listening to this might think, well, why don't more people escape? Why is that so difficult? Well, North Korean people can only escape really through the northern border through China because the border to South Korea is heavily, heavily militarized. It's called the DMZ, demilitarized zone, but it's anything but that. And when they go up to north, the border between China and North Korea used to be porous.

So, you know, thousands of people would escape in the past years. But since Kim Jong-un came to power in more recent years, he really fortified that border and really clamped down on any kind of bribe-taking. The border guards has become a lot more, you know, a lot more serious about stopping any escaping attempts. So we have been seeing very few, maybe, you know, the number of people we saw escaping North Korea, Korea, we can count in one hand each year. So there's very little information that comes out or goes into North Korea. And a lot of the information that we have in South Korea is simply by looking at what North Korea chooses to share with us through the state media. And this is where a lot of our information on Kim Ju-Aue is also based. We have been seeing Kim Ji-A up here on North Korean

state television, you know, standing, you know, with her father. And her position in that picture has become more and more prominent over the years. You know, in 2022, when she first appeared, she was holding her father's hand or standing behind him. Now we see her standing even taller than him. She is physically taller than her father now, and now placed in the frame kind of on the same footing as her father, which is kind of hard to imagine in a country like North Korea.

We rarely see Kim Jong-un and another individual in North Korea being given the same prominence in the framing. And in North Korean media, this symbolism is everything. So this is actually one of the reasons why a lot of people who are analyzing North Korea has been seeing that, wow, Kim Juei is really being given a very privileged, a very special position inside North Korea's hierarchy. Really interesting update. Thank you so much for joining us, talking to us live from our Seoul Bureau. That is Jake Kwan, the BBC Seoul correspondent. Thank you so much for all of your texts coming into the program about how you met your live partner.

of Valentine's Day. So many coming in. I met my boyfriend in the first-class carriage of a train home from London. Best use of the over-60s rail card ever. Well done you. Met my wife on a blind date. I, as usual, got the time wrong, thought I was late. No date there.

So thought I'd missed her. Started to drive home. On the way, I pulled into a lay-by and thought, I wonder if she met half-past. So I turned around and the rest is history, except I've never found that layby again. Spooky. Says Graham, 37 years wed this year.

My partner and I met over several thousand skeletons, including a plague pit during an archaeological dig at Hereford Cathedral in 1993. Still together. Loretta and Dan, how romantic. This met my husband at Polytechnic. Same halls of residence. He was in room 21.

My birthday. I was in room 14, his birthday. We met at the Christian Union, still together, 39 years this year with three children. Last one for now. We met on a London 507 bendy bus. My sister wasn't impressed until I reminded her she met her partner in a pub. Wherever you meet them, we want to hear your stories. Cheer us up with a bit of romance on this rainy Friday morning.

You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Now, how about some music? Earlier this week, I was joined by Alexandra Dariuscu, a Romanian British classical concert pianist. Alexandra describes herself as a citizen of the world and a storyteller, and the music she plays and the story she tells show just how diverse classical music can be. In March, Alexandra will be performing Doreen-Karlithen's piano concerto

with the Manchester Camerata at the Royal Northern College of Music. I asked Alexandra about that music. The Doreenka, Rwitin is a concerto that I love. We might be recording it. This is very exclusive. But it'll be such a joy to bring it back. You know what I find with female composers? So many times I just perform it once and that's it.

But in order to love something, in order, music has this incredible ability to create emotions and to feel it. You need to hear it two, three times, a hundred times in order to understand it and really grasp the meaning. behind the music. So I'm really thrilled that I get to perform it. This is the second time. Fantastic. We don't have much time and we want you to play again, but you didn't have a piano, did you when you were growing up? You eventually did. But your family had to save up, didn't they?

My dearest mother, who's the greatest inspiration for me, she saved up many, many years. And she bought an upright piano that we still have at home. And she's been my number one supporter, but also inspiring me to never give up. And I think that's the lesson that I got from a very young age, that determination and believing in something and having a dream, this is why this 10th album, a child's dream is called like this, it's very much a celebration of all the hard work and perseverance because I think a child's dream, like every musical note, has the ability to shine for a lifetime. And if we encourage the younger generation to have a dream and to never give up, I think we are very much bringing life, you know, to a more

human way to look at it. Absolutely. You're doing astonishing work. Listen, please walk back over to the piano and I'm going to, as you walk, I'm going to tell the audience a little bit about the next piece. This is a piece by Black composer Florence Price. She's the first African-American woman to be recognized as a symphonic composer and the Chicago Symphony premiered her and then she fell under the radar. And now she's been championed again by Alexandra. So what are you going to play for us? is a gorgeous piece, very humorous, is just a lot of circus music in there. It's called The Goblin and the Mosquito. And I think it will put a smile on everyone's faces this morning.

Take it away. She was absolutely fantastic. Alexandra Dariuscu. And to hear the whole interview, you can go to BBC Sounds and select the Woman's Hour program from Wednesday, the 11th of February. Now, Coven Garden nowadays, a centre for high-end designers shops, theatres, award-winning restaurants,

but back in the 1700s, it was a hotspot for taverns, coffee houses and prostitution. And this is the colourful backdrop for the fourth novel from Louise Hare, and it's called The House of Fallen Sisters. It follows the story of Suki, a mixed-race girl and an orphan, recently moved to London to live with her guardian. Now, the Guardian also happens to be a madam, who runs a brothel, and Suki knows that once puberty hits, she too will join the women earning their keep.

Let's hear an exit from the start of the novel. London is the greatest city in the world. That's what they say, and for some I suppose it must be true. If you have money, power, if you perch on the higher rungs of the ladder that makes up the city society. For people like me, London's just a trap. A place where so many of a struggle to survive.

a place full of darkness and danger and... But I should try not to think about what might be lurking on these streets. I'm huddled in a doorway shivering. The street is pitch black, as I know I would see my breath clearly. A white wraith of heat leaving my body. Every inhalation bringing more freezing air into my lungs. It's well after midnight and there are a few aboard at this late, or early hour. The distinction I find depends on your circumstances,

and your place in the world. I push my body back into the night, knowing how vital it is to keep going. An excerpt from Louise Hare's latest novel, delighted to say Louise joins us in the studio. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to read that for us.

It's a fascinating time in London's history. Why decide to set it then and there? I think it was sort of the story that discovered me. I do write historical fiction, but I've tended to stick more 20th century. So this is, you know, quite a departure. And it was actually the story of Jonathan Strong, who's a minor character in the book.

He was basically a slave at the time living in London and was found beaten almost to death in the street and was sort of rescued and became, I think, sort of one of the very early test cases as to whether slavery was to be considered legal on the streets of England or Britain. I was really fascinated by that and the sort of grey areas around what was legal when it came to slavery on these shores, particularly.

But I knew I didn't particularly want to write his story. So that's where Suki came in. She becomes the person that discovers him in the street and sort of takes him to help. And again, the reason she's a sex worker is, again, it's one of those areas that's very focused on women, that's sort of a great area in terms of the morality and the legalities at the time. So I thought there were quite good stories to put together. Brilliant stories to put together. And you're very non-judgmental about that profession.

What did you discover about it? I mean, it clearly was pretty risky for women, one would imagine. It was really risky for women at the time. But also, everything was. You know, there weren't any women's rights at the time. There was no welfare state. You know, you were very much, you know, if you were poor and a woman, if you didn't have a husband,

And even if you had a husband and had lots of children because there's no birth control, just everything was very precarious and risky. And a lot of women did turn to sex work at the time to pay the bills. Even if they had work in other areas, it was somewhere, you know, it was a job that you could sort of turn to when you just needed a bit of extra money to pay rent or buy food for your many children

or to pay for a doctor because, again, you know, obviously there's no NHS. So, yeah, it was just. it just seemed to be an industry that came up in the research time and time again. That's what I found so fascinating, because women used to pick it up and drop it as they needed additional income. Your main character, Suki, mixed Nigerian heritage like yourself. So how much did your own experience filter into your character? I think, I suppose in terms of her background.

So she at the start of the novel, she's fairly recently arrived in London. she grew up in dorking actually. So small town, you know, essentially compared to London, the countryside, living as the only person who wasn't white, and living in this family, you know, basically in the house of a reverend and his wife, who, you know, obviously they gave a roof over her head, but she was expected to work for it from, you know, very early age.

And part of it is her coming to London, a little bit like I did in my mid-20s, and actually feeling, you know, you've, there are people that look like you and you can learn more about yourself and your culture and your identity. So I think those aspects definitely sort of fed into it in terms of, you know, Suki finds Jonathan and she also then, you know, through him, finds this black community because there was a quite substantial black community in London at the time, partly because of slavery, partly because of things that were happening in the Americas.

So, yeah, I kind of wanted to use those experiences for Suki. And the heartbreaking thing is she's heading towards puberty. And once that comes in, that's her. She's in the system. Was that quite difficult? I mean, you must have done your research. Was it quite hard to read that, you know, just a 13-year-old girl going into that world? Yeah.

And I think I always worry what readers are going to think of it because obviously the social aspects of the time are very different to now. So almost at 14, she's considered a woman. She's not considered a child. There is no real protection. So yeah, they're kind of sensitive topics to take on, but at the same time as an author of historical fiction, you have to keep it feeling authentic to the period

and feeling authentic to what's in the research. So I try to sort of balance those things, I suppose. Covent Garden gentrified from when I moved to London in my 20s. You go back and you're like, well, what happened to this place? What you've discovered was entirely different. It wasn't quite a slum in the 1700s, but it bordered slums, didn't that? Yeah, so you had the big slum. around sort of Seven Diles and St Giles.

And Comet Garden had obviously been built as being quite fancy and had, I guess, fallen on rougher times. So it was known for the taverns and the coffee houses. There was some big sort of banyas and sorallios where basically big brothels where men could go. And yeah, it was where you went for a good time, I guess, if you were a man of the time. Yeah.

And yeah, it was sort of moving further and further down, which is why Mrs McCauley in the book, who's Suki's guardian or madam, is constantly thinking, how do I move us out of here? How do we move some work and a bit more money and get a better standard of client? Well, it's, yes, you've got to be practical.

I mean, it's such brilliant writing because it's such a great tale, but also the historical aspect of it. I think people will learn a lot reading this book. And the writing process for you, I think it's great that you're honest about, You're an estate agent? Travel agent. You're a travel agent.

So you have to have a job that sits alongside this. How hard is it to do both, to have the headspace to do all of this and earn a living? Yeah. I mean, it's something I've sort of dipped in and out of. I was obviously working in travel during the pandemic was a bit of a no-go. So I did have a few years of writing sort of full-time or doing freelance things as well. And it's actually just quite stressful to. You know, when you're working creatively, things don't always go to plan.

This book took at least a year longer than I planned to write just because aspects of it weren't coming together. And actually having a Monday to Friday job or having just not having to worry about the financial things opens you up to being able to write creatively because it's really hard to write under stress of any kind. So I think for me, yes, it's more difficult finding time to write. but I do find that when I think I've got two hours, I'm more productive. So, you know, there's pros and cons to it. Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, it's a great book. It's called The House of Fallen Sisters by Louise Hare.

And it's out now? It is out now. It's out now. Thank you so much for dropping by the Woman's Hour studio, Louise Hare there. Now, listen, I'm going to try to get through as many of your text as possible on how you met your other half because they're great. I met my husband on a blind date, 1979, love at first sight. carefully kept the clothes I was wearing when we met.

And when my dear husband died in 2003, I wore those clothes to his funeral. I loved him from the first minute I saw him. I love him still. And always, what a wonderful text. Thank you for getting in touch. I met my future husband opposite Graceland in Memphis in 1978. Both Elvis fans, I thought he was too young for me. 43 years and three children later.

Age doesn't matter. No, it certainly doesn't. And this one, I met my husband when I was a student nurse. My car wouldn't start after a late shift on a. very cold November evening, this kind man in a white coat stopped to help. I married my medical student and we celebrate 59 years of marriage this July. Thank you for all of your text. It's been wonderful to read them. I'll join you tomorrow at 4th, a weekend, Women's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie. But the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award-winning rapper and dad of two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences.

People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means. And it's very true. someone when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, press the green, I went yeah, he went, congratulations, went, cheers. And he went, welcome to the truth club. I went, what do you mean? You went, you'll find out soon enough.

And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the daily challenges that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life, especially are talking away. You've asked them a question. They're answering the question and you're like this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Uh-mm. Because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already. So whether you're a first-time parent, you've got multiple kids, you're a carer or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's parents in download with me, Katie Thistleton. And me, Governor B. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.