Woman's Hour - Gentle parenting, Truss and leadership, Indicator offences

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

What is a gentle parent? Does it really mean never saying ‘no’ to your child? And how did #gentleparenting attract more than 2.6 billion views on TikTok? Emma Barnett talks to TikTok content creator Kelly Medina Enos and psychologist Dr Penelope Leach about the rising popularity of this parenting approach.Only yesterday the Prime Minister Liz Truss said her government would be sticking to the measures announced in the mini budget ten days ago. But this morning the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Kwasi Kwarteng, has reversed the tax cut proposal that has led to volatility in the value of sterling and pressure on interest rates and inflation. Is it strong leadership to admit mistakes and move on or will it blight the premiership of Liz Truss? Emma is joined by the Times journalist Rachel Sylvester, and then business leader Nicola Horlick to discuss new research showing that just a third of girls want to be the boss in their future careers.We learned last week that the charity Mermaids is to be investigated by the Charity Commission. This is after an undercover investigation by the Telegraph newspaper claiming that Mermaids is supplying breast binders to children without parental consent. These are devices that are used to bind up the breasts in order to give the appearance of a flatter chest. Emma speaks to Lauren Moss, the BBC’s LGBT and Identity correspondent who has been following the story.Wayne Couzens is serving a whole life sentence for the rape and murder of Sarah Everard in 2021. He has appeared this morning at The Old Bailey at a plea hearing for two flashing offences he allegedly committed prior to this. Couzens was not actually asked to enter a plea however, amid ongoing industrial action by barristers, so we don't know yet know whether these charges will lead to a trial. We explore the subject of so-called ‘indicator’ offences, those low-level offences which could lead to more serious crimes. Emma is joined by Zoe Billingham, Former Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary who was responsible for inspecting 15 police forces & Kieran McCartan - Professor of Criminology at the University of the West of England.We speak to Sam and Alena Cox, a married couple of artists whose Kent home is attracting a lot of attention. Sam is an artist known for his doodles and he has gone everywhere in his home with his paintbrush and spray can. It's black and white all over - from the external walls to the toilet lid and even Alena’s tutu.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope the weekend was good to you. Now, a long time ago, especially in political hours all the way back to last Thursday's programme, I asked you if you had five minutes with Liz Truss, as my colleagues did on local BBC radio, what you would ask her. Many of you alighted upon the theme of enquiring why she couldn't change her mind or believe she was wrong after her Chancellor's mini-budget continued to cause turbulence across the economy and markets. Others of you, of course, said she should stick

to her guns, but the new prime minister did that. She was digging her heels in those pre-conservative party conference interviews all the way until her interview yesterday with my colleague Laura Koonsberg. Those heels were firmly dug in. No changes will be made and the tax cut for higher earners would remain. That was until this morning when the Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng was the one to perform the U-turn, made all the more major for mistrust is intransigence, saying the government is

abandoning its plan to abolish the top rate of income tax for the highest earners as it had become a distraction. Of course, this will have been signed off or even ordered by the Prime Minister. Changing your mind or performing a U-turn then? Is it a good sign of leadership or weakness? Have a listen to the very end of what the Chancellor had to say to my colleagues on the Today programme earlier. So we've listened. It's not just about MPs. It's not about parliamentary votes or Westminster machinations. It's about listening to people in the country and actually understanding where people are. Well, you can widen the apology if you like, you can apologise to everybody.

And actually having the humility. Do you owe an apology? Actually having the humility to say look we got this wrong and we're not going to proceed with the abolition of the right. Do you owe people an apology? We're not going to proceed with the abolition of the right. We've listened to people and yeah there is humility and contrition in that. Okay. And I'm

happy to own it. Kwasi Kwarteng talking to my colleague Nick Robinson. Well, tell me your take. You can text the programme here on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Strong leadership or is it a sign of weakness, especially at the beginning of a premiership of Liz Truss' tenure as Prime Minister?

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can now, of course, send WhatsApp messages, 03700 100 444, to check what those data charges might be. You may choose to use Wi-Fi instead. But it's also striking that this U-turn comes on the day a survey is published showing that becoming a leader ranks as the lowest priority for girls aged 9 to 18 in this country. There's been a survey done, and girls want to enjoy their work but not lead.

Well, how is leadership being advertised to girls and young women? The third female prime minister is one example of it, but there are many others. The businesswoman and boss, Nicola Horlick, is here. Also on today's programme, Mr and Mrs Doodle, the artist couple who live in a house, that's not actually their name but you'll understand why in a moment, who live in a house. That's not actually their name, but you'll understand why in a moment. You live in a house covered in black and white doodles.

And I mean absolutely covered. We are talking about the outside of the house, the toilet walls, the toilet seat, even the toaster in black and white doodles. Is it headache inducing or totally and utterly beautiful? We will share an image on our website and our social media feeds if you haven't seen this already. But I'll be talking to both of them, both of them artists, about how they live and why they live the way they do. And why the transgender youth support charity Mermaids is under investigation by the Charity Commission concerning allegations of sending breast binders to children without parental consent. But coming then to the idea of leadership, and I'm looking forward to hearing your responses to this.

Only yesterday, the Prime Minister said her government would be sticking to one of those measures announced in the mini-budget 10 days ago. But you've heard of this U-turn now. Is it a sign of weakness or strength? As I say, I'd like to hear from you on this. Or is this something you just simply should not be doing and cannot be doing, especially at the beginning of your tenure? Let's talk now to the political journalist, Rachel Sylvester, who writes a column for The Times. Good morning.

Morning. We are at the start of the Conservative Party conference. It's underway. And I wanted to get your take on strength or weakness at this point. Complete and utter weakness. So I've been coming to these conferences now for 25 years, and I can't remember a more disastrous start to one of them. So last week, the Prime Minister sacrificed the Conservative Party's reputation for economic competence. We all watched those graphs crashing and going down to the floor in really terrifying

ways that affect everybody's lives. But then now she also seems to have sacrificed her political authority, but having also signalled what the values were. So it wasn't that she decided this was the wrong thing to do. She was forced into this U-turn by her MPs. But still the voters know that what she wanted to do was to benefit the very wealthiest in society, those who pay the very top rate of tax, while refusing to commit to increasing benefits. So I think both the political and economic damages is now catastrophic. Should she have just carried on with it then? No, because I think it was the wrong thing to do. And she just didn't wouldn't have got it through

Parliament. What was so striking when she gave that interview to your colleague laura kunzberg yesterday within seconds michael gove was there in the studio saying that uh he disagreed you know she said she wasn't going to u-turn he said explained exactly why the policy was was wrong and then one after the other mps came out saying why they couldn't support the government on this. But why should anyone believe what Michael Gove has to say on this? Because he was fired by her. But the point is that he's representing a body of opinion in the parliamentary party. No, I accept that. But I found it striking that there's suddenly a treatment of him by some as the oracle. And yet we also know that she got rid of a lot of these people, especially a lot of these men.

Sure, but the point was that him coming out signalled that this wasn't going to get through Parliament. So she could have stuck to her guns, the lady's not for turning as much as she wanted, but thehip because is she going to get through her proposals on planning reform which Tory MPs have been against you know for years is she going to get through changes on immigration these benefit effective cuts that she's she's planning the authority now has gone in in parliament and that's a very difficult position for any prime minister so early in her premiership but in terms of how and who has taken the the buck if you like and taken the fall quasi-quartang is that is that showing that she's trying to pass that off can she pass that off to the chancellor i think it's such an interesting question she she can't but she was trying to in that interview with Laura, she talked about

how this was the Chancellor's decision. But of course, everyone knows that they're absolutely bound at the hip on particularly on this kind of libertarian tax cutting free market agenda. They've both been promoting this for a decade. Now they're in power, It was all guns blazing for that agenda. And I did a profile of Kwasi Kwarteng for The Times last week. And I spoke to one of his supporters who made the point that they're very close. The prime minister makes the decisions. You know, the prime minister is the first lord of the treasury. The chancellor is the second lord of the treasury, which is obviously the sort of technical difference between them. At the time when I spoke to this person, it sounded like those comments were meant to be very supportive.

But now it almost sounds like a threat. It's saying, you know, she was absolutely up to her neck in this. So if she tries to sack him, I think it's very difficult. She may want to for her own survival, but she's so intimately bound up with this decision. We're talking about it in terms of strength and weakness. It's very clear what you think, especially your experience of coming to these conferences and so early in a tenure. There's a message here which I just wanted to ask you about, which says the U-turn is neither a sign of weakness or strength. It's a sign of utter lack of intelligence and ability.

Intelligence and thoughtful leaders rarely ever need to U-turn because they make the correct decisions in the first place. Is that true? Well, I think that's a really interesting comment because I think one of the things that Liz Truss lacks is empathy and nuance. She's a sort of rather interesting person in a way quite impressive. It's not true all this stuff people say about, you know, she's not clever. She is, she's smart, she's hardworking,

but she's kind of 10% off is all I can say. She sort of lacks an empathy and an understanding of how people feel and how things are going to affect people beyond herself. And I think that is partly what's got her into this position. So it was the wrong policy. It was the wrong priority. That's true true and the fact that she went through with it despite you know lack the understanding to realize that at a time and a cost of living crisis to be really benefiting

that really pretty super rich elite um would just not only come across terribly but be the wrong priority just finally interesting what you say about she's not thick she's not stupid that is would just not only come across terribly, but be the wrong priority. Just finally, interesting what you say about she's not thick, she's not stupid. That is something that keeps being said by some of her detractors. And I wonder if you think that's said about men in the same way. No, and I think there's definitely an element of sexism in that. I was so interested by that poll you talked about earlier of girls because actually what was so depressing about that is all the things that the girls say they want to promote themselves. So Theresa May talked about herself as a bloody difficult woman. She had she wore that as a badge of honor.

She had a mug with that on her desk in number 10. Liz Truss talking about the ladies not for turning, citing Margaret Thatcher. Actually, I don't think this decision today has anything to do with whether she's male or female. It was just she made the wrong decision. But there is something interesting about how women leaders want to project themselves in this kind of rather macho and actually the way that isn't very appealing to girls and actually may not be the best way to get things done or run the country. Well, the ones who have certainly made it to the top of politics, and we were talking about why that has tended to be, girls and actually may not be the best way to get things done or run the country.

Well, the ones who've certainly made it to the top of politics, and we were talking about why that has tended to be on the right wings of politics rather than those leaders in the left that have been around the world some. But it was something we talked about last week. If you missed it, you can catch back up. I'll let you get back to your analysing and your interviewing at the Conservative Party Conference. Rachel Sylvester, thank you to you. So to that study then, that a third, just a third of girls want to be the boss. This is research commissioned by the Girls' School Day Trust, which runs 25 private schools in England and Wales. It shows 83% of nine to 18 year old girls think enjoying one's job is the most important thing. And only 33% want to lead. I'll tell you a bit more about what it says in a moment, but let me introduce the businesswoman Nicola Horlick.

You may know her as the city superwoman, as she was often referred to and is often referred to, running investment funds, as well as being a mother to six children. Nicola, good morning. Good morning. Just to say on this report, a couple more things on it. Girls felt good leaders should show qualities such as not giving up, being responsible,

inspiring others, ensuring individuals are understood and appreciated and impressing people with their work, ethic and behaviours. But they conclude few girls see political leadership

today as aspirational, describing the government as lacking in the above qualities and the need for competent, honest and thought through leadership. What do you make of this? Well, I mean, it does fit actually with my experience during my career, where I've had talented young women who quite often don't get beyond the graduate trainee stage in the city

and decide they want to leave and go off and do something else, but also don't want to put themselves forward for big jobs. And I find that incredibly annoying. And, you know, when you've got a very large organisation, you have what I call the marzipan layer, which is the layer below the top. And they're quite happy often to get to that level and just stay there and not put their head above the parapet. And, you know, I think some of it is because naturally women are more conservative with a small C and more cautious than men.

And I think that's a big part of it. And there is a lot of risk in becoming a leader, as Liz Truss has found out today. You know, the fact is you have to take responsibility. You can say if you're a leader that it's a collective decision of a board or a cabinet or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, if you're the person at the top, you're the one who actually ultimately takes the flag.

And I think a lot of girls don't want to have to take the flag. Do you think there are the wrong adverts for leadership at the moment for women? I know you're saying you've seen this throughout your career, but looking at what's being said by some of the youngest in our society? Well, I mean, I think when I started in the city, which was a very long time ago now, there were no role models, really. And when people used to ask me what my role model, who my role model was, I used to say the Queen, because she was actually a great role model for working women. There were very few females at the top of anything, not just in the city,

you know, in business as well. And that has changed, you know, okay, it's still a small number, but you frequently on the airwaves hear people who are the CEO of something. So that's really good news. And, you know, and I think that in the last few years has been too much focus on non-executive directors on boards. It's actually executives that we want on boards who are female, not non-executives. So it is improving, but there's still an awful long way to go. And in terms of persuading girls, I mean, I think it really comes down to parents. You know, I think one of the reasons I succeeded in my career is because my father always told me that I could do anything that I wanted. He said to me from an early age that I would go to Oxford

University. And I did go to Oxford University. He said to me, you can be a leader. And I became a leader, you know, so I think that's very important. I think actually, with girls, it's particularly important that the father believes in them and encourages them as well. So that is important. But also it's down, obviously, to teachers, and giving the right career advice. I suppose taking a step back, seeing this study today, and then also looking at what was going on with the top woman in the country, the prime minister today. Is it also a time of, because we've had years and years of quotas and talking about how to get more women and broken pipelines and all these sorts of things.

Is it also potentially a moment to just think perhaps this isn't the way it's ever going to be? Perhaps we have to accept that we don't make leadership that appealing. And maybe, you know, boys are also going off it. Yes, I completely agree. I think there is an element of that, that you can't force somebody to do something they don't want to do. And if you actually look at the way that leaders are treated when things go wrong in the business or politically. And whatever you may think about what Liz Truss' decisions have been over the last few days, the fact of the matter is, I wouldn't really like to be Liz Truss at this moment.

And, you know, it takes a certain type of person to want to put themselves in the firing line. And there are likely to be more boys than girls wanting to be in the firing line. And as you say, a lot of these environments are so toxic, certainly politics and the city share that, that maybe even some boys don't want to put themselves in the firing line. And I think actually it is evident that it's harder to recruit good people into the city currently. A lot of young people are saying they want to run their own businesses and be entrepreneurs rather than go and work in the city well a different form of

leadership entirely nicola horlick thank you very much for your views uh messages coming in here one saying a u-turn was neither a strength or weakness the problem was the original reasoning and the arrogance of riding roughshod over advice sidelining the cabinet and the obr pamela says i don't think liz trust has shown either strength or weakness, just sheer stupidity, forgetting it totally and utterly wrong in the first place. I've never voted anything but Conservative, but cannot see myself ever voting so again.

I think it's a great sign of leadership to U-turn, to be able to put your hands up, admit you failed, and most importantly, reads this message, apologise. It raged me to hear the Chancellor avoiding the words sorry. I think he went for contrite instead. I can't see the Prime Minister apologising either. Let's look towards Nicola Sturgeon for a strong female leader able to apologise and thus in touch and liked by her voters. Trevor says changing your mind with additional information is human and good. But if you're in a position of power after promoting your original view, they need to resign.

Finally, from Anne, and there are others, but just for what I can say at this point, I will come back if I can. I would ask what she believes government is for. All we hear about is the economy and finances if the UK is a business. Surely the aim of government is to work for the interests of the UK population as a whole. And so it continues. As I say, I will come back to those messages if I can. But let me bring you up to date on a couple of stories. One, just to start with here,

that the Charity Mermaids is to be investigated by the Charity Commission. The Charity Mermaids, which you will know, some of you will know if you don't, the Transgender Youth Support Charity is being looked at. This is after an undercover investigation by the Telegraph newspaper claiming that mermaids is supplying breast binders to children without parental consent. These are devices used to bind up the breasts in order to give the appearance of a flatter chest. Lauren Moss is the BBC's LGBT and identity correspondent and has been following this story. Lauren, remind us about Mermaids and what they were set up to do. Morning, Emma. Well, Mermaids was formed in 1995.

And like you say, they're a charity that supports young transgender people or gender diverse children up to the age of 25. And they say that they don't give healthcare advice as such. They signpost to what's available. They give guidelines. They run forums and helpline services and community groups. And they've been doing that since around about 1995. It was subject to the focus of a series of pieces like you were mentioning there in the Daily Telegraph last week.

And why now under investigation by the Charity Commission? Well, it mainly centres around what you were just saying around chest binders and breast binding devices. Now, one of these pieces in the Daily Telegraph investigation last week said that binders have been supplied to children without parental permission. And they are essentially like what you just said. They may be worn by somebody who has gender dysphoria and that's defined by the NHS as a sense of unease experienced by what's called a mismatch between biological sex and gender identity and there are specifically designed devices for this for chest binding or some people may choose to make their own from things like sports bras and tape and bandages designed to be worn for a limited number

of hours a day but usually like you say to disguise breasts or give a more traditionally masculine appearance under clothes and the charity commission has said that following this article this investigation the telegraph that they received a number of complaints in relation to safeguarding at mermaids and so it's opened what's called a regulatory compliance case and it's written to the trustees of the charity about that. Now last week Mermaids last Friday night released a strongly worded statement about all of this saying that they were in the midst of a targeted and cynical attack to discredit the charity and that they take a harm reduction approach in relation to binders

and they say it's always safety advice given and that's preferable to the likely alternative of unsafe practices around binding as well. But they are in contact with the Charity Commission and trustees, I think, have a week or so to respond. So in terms of what will happen next, what could happen? Well, this regulatory compliance case is effectively a fact-finding investigation. And what the Charity Commission will do is try and establish exactly what has gone on here, what safeguarding process were in place and what was followed. So the trustees of Mermaids have been written to. The Charity Commission will then assess what happens next. The regulatory compliance case doesn't mean

that there has necessarily been any wrongdoing. It could result in nothing at all. It could result in advice at all, it could result in advice given to the charity working closer together, or it could be escalated to what's called a statutory inquiry. And that's where the commission has wider powers over the charity. And for context, the commission regulates 170,000 charities in England and Wales. They concluded around 5,500 of these regulatory compliance cases each year over the last couple of years.

And from those, around 60 statutory inquiries were opened. So what the Commission will do is look into the safeguarding processes. It won't be making a ruling on chest binders generally and the medical pros and cons of those. It will centre around the safeguarding practices at Mermaids. And that means, sorry, about parental consent? Is that what it... when you center around the safeguarding practices at mermaids and that means sorry about parental consent is that what it when you talk about the safeguarding practices sorry say that again does that mean about parental consent whether these binders have been sent

without it yeah i think that will that will form part of it i mean as mermaids would say that they would rather give advice and guidance around chest binders if there was a parent involved that did what that wasn't supporting the young person they would rather give them that advice than that young person potentially turning to other methods for chest binding which may be more potentially harmful which which has been has been raised as well that they would rather do that in a way that then alleviates some of the anxiety and distress experienced by those that have gender dysphoria because of the elements that will be looked into yeah and this is a wider context with we know you know the tavistock gender identity clinic is going to close and and we also know that there is a change afoot in how children are being treated.

Yeah, I think this is sort of the latest really in the focus around care for gender identity services involving young people and the health care and services that are there for them. Like you mentioned the Tavistock there in July, it was announced that the Tavistock, which is the only gender specific gender identity services centre for young people, is to close. yno yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyfyniad yn ddyf incredibly long waiting lists that have increased exponentially over the last five years or so. So this is sort of the latest really in the focus on safeguarding and care for young people and the services and support that are available to them. But like I say, mermaids have a couple of weeks or so to respond and then we'll find out really if there will be any outcome from this latest report and investigation. And just staying with mermaids, mermaids have been working on a tribunal because another charity, the LGB Alliance, have been taken to a tribunal by mermaids this month.

And last, the LGB Alliance was set up in 2019 when, in its own words, it became clear that same-sex attracted people no longer had an organisation dedicated to meeting their needs or protecting their hard-won rights. This was after the organisation Stonewall began campaigning for transgender rights in 2015. High-profile supporters of the LGB Alliance include Professor Kathleen Stock. So Lauren, to come to you, because I know you've been following this as well. Why is the LGB Alliance's charitable status being appealed by Mermaids? A totally separate case. Yeah, like you say, it's not directly linked to anything at all. We've just been discussing then, although a couple of the same players mentioned. But this is the first time that I understand the tribunal has happened where a charity is sought to appeal the status of another charity. So Mermaids is appealing the Charity Commission's decision to make the LGB Alliance a charity in 2020. Now that case was largely heard last month and will return next month for closing arguments. Now Mermaids argues that the LGB Alliance has

what was described in the court documents as an anti-trans focus. It seeks, they say, to obstruct or impede Mermaids work and others that support transgender people while not fulfilling the aims that it's pledging to do, supporting people who are lesbian, gay and bisexual. Now, the LGB Alliance founders say, like you just mentioned, that they set up their charity to represent and help lesbian, gay and bisexual people after other charities started prioritising gender over sex. And they say that sex is immutable, it cannot be changed. And there were some very powerful things discussed in the hearing last month where one of the co-founders said that homophobia was at the heart of gender identity theory, which is obviously something that mermaids and other charities, including Stonewall, would disagree with. And really the mermaids are questioning whether the LGB Alliance

meets the legal tests for charitable status. But it isn't simply enough for mermaids not to agree with what the LGB Alliance stands for because LGB Alliance insists that they are not anti-trans, that they want to exist essentially to support LGB people and that they are supportive of trans rights, which of course mermaids very strongly disagrees with but what the judge will judges will have to decide is whether firstly mermaids have the legal standing to bring this case in the first place just disagreeing on the

two points isn't enough uh they have to prove that they've been impacted and then the charity commission will be looking at also whether LGB Alliance does meet that legal standing and what the purposes and public benefit are of LGB Alliance being a charity and that will be decided in the next coming months after closing arguments next month. So when will we learn the outcome? Well, how long is a piece of string? We've seen with some of these cases in the past that they can take many weeks, a few months even. Closing arguments will be next month

and then the decisions will be made sometime after that in the coming weeks or months. Well, I'm sure we will talk again if not before. Lauren Moss, thank you for an update on both of those stories. The BBC's LGBT and identity correspondent there. Now, a message has already come in about this because we put something out on social media already and in fact from someone who knows all about it but we're going to talk now about a parenting trend. Of course nothing new but one approach in particular has seen

something of a boom on TikTok. Videos with the hashtag gentle parenting have attracted more than 2.6 billion views on the app and counting. The term was first thought to be coined by Sarah Ockwell-Smith in the Gentle Parenting book. This was in 2016 and she's already got in touch with this this morning. Gentle parents claim to look for the motivations behind their child's challenging behaviour rather than simply correcting it. Many of those propagating this have grown huge online audiences with their videos explaining how everything from eschewing the naughty step in favour of the calm down corner. And as some put it, to dropping the word no or even well done, those words from their vocabulary. And a message here from Sarah, which says, FYI, the most gentle parenting videos on TikTok are a confused form of permissive parenting.

I'm hoping to keep up with this. Speaking as the author of this book, it's very important to say no lots and have strong boundaries if you want to follow true gentle parenting. Well, let's talk to someone who is talking about this and has a lot of followers. Kelly Medina Enos, who first started making videos in lockdown, sharing her experiences of gentle parenting. He's got nearly 10 million likes on TikTok and has a three-year-old. And in a moment, I'll be talking to Dr. Penelope Leach, the psychologist and author of the 70s parenting Bible, Your Baby and Child. Kelly, there's already a debate about what it is and what it isn't. What is gentle parenting according to you? So first of all, gentle parenting,

there's basically quite a few different types of parenting style uh but the first one which a lot of us have been brought up with is authoritarian now that is high levels of sort of punishment but low levels of emotional understanding um so very harsh discipline very harsh punishment and then there's the other end of the spectrum which is permissive parenting so low levels of discipline very high on emotions um they're very keen to be sort of their child's best friend let them get away with a lot of things and that is permissive parenting and then in the middle of that is authoritative which is aka gentle parenting and that has very high levels of discipline but also very high levels of emotional understanding

um so we sort of teach our children um the way of the world and sort of respect and things like that with respect doesn't every parent try and do that pardon doesn't every parent aim to do that so this is the thing i mean a lot of people what's lovely is nowadays a lot of people think that that is just a normal way of parenting. And if it comes naturally to you, bravo. Sorry. So what do you actually mean? Can you give some examples? I mentioned not using the word no. Do you use the word no? Yeah. So this is this is where it's been taken up context. I do use the word no, but I've dramatically dropped how much I use it because I didn't find that it worked

so instead of as an example with George if he was climbing something instead of me saying no get down from there which I found myself doing all the time and it just falling on deaf ears I turned it to can you put your feet on the floor please I now tell him what I would like him to do rather than just saying no I get an I give him an explanation of why exactly I don't want him to do that and then we move on from from that so yeah this is this is your three-year-old when you're talking about George and and and you don't have a naughty step either you wouldn't use that phraseology what why not yeah so personally for me I had the naughty step growing up and I distinctly remember you know sort of being left in a place where I had high emotions

not really being sort of told why I was there and left in a place sort of on my own to deal with my own emotions the the reason why I don't do it there are various different ways that you can sort of incorporate that sort of thing into into your parenting style People call it time in, people call it time out. But I do something called the calm down corner. Now, I would not force George into that area as a form of discipline. For me, it's somewhere that he can go when I see that his emotions are rising.

So it's not after he's done something naughty or done something that he shouldn't be doing. It's a space where he can go to regroup and gather his sort of emotions and it doesn't have to be anything spectacular just a corner of a room with a beanbag a couple of non-stimulating toys so books I have a breathe board or emotion flashcards and he takes himself in there takes a few minutes I don't bother him we come back out and we discuss exactly what happened what if they won't go in it so if George doesn't go in it then I will usually just say to him that I'm going to step away because I can feel myself getting frustrated because what

happens is when a child's emotions heighten and then your emotions heighten you end up then getting into some sort of screaming match with each other you get frustrated it's best to just take that time apart from each other come back and then sort of regroup after that and nine times out of ten George did take himself in that but obviously you have to be in you have to be near that what if you're out and about or you've also got multiple children I suppose what I'm driving at is how you do discipline yeah so discipline is i mean there's various different ways so as an example there's like natural consequences um there's different there's boundaries that you sat and you put in place as an example george is drawing on the wall all right you would then reiterate we don't draw on the wall pens up a paper if he then continues to draw on the wall or looks like he's going over to the wall

at that point you would say to him um pens of the paper if you can't listen to me i am going to have to take those crayons away from you for the rest of the day and then you take them away from him um but there's loads of different ways so i mean positive language as well as another great thing within gentle parenting um so sort of saying things along the lines like giving him options throughout the day if you feel like you're in a power struggle with your child and you feel like they're constantly battling with you or asking you why or whatever,

you can say little things to them throughout the day. Would you like your cereal in a green bowl or would you like it in a blue bowl? And that also really, really helps your relationship with them as well. I mean, a lot of this sounds very logical. Are you overriding your natural instincts a lot of the time do you think every single day okay um yeah every single day it is and that's something that i talk about quite a lot on on tiktok is you know when i started doing

gentle parenting i always found these very uh sort of knowledgeable coaches who really understood the concept of it and i'm just a parent who has done it, but I was really struggling to find that person who could go, do you know what, this is actually really, really difficult and have a safe space to sort of, you know, talk to somebody and say, I shouted today and I really didn't want to do that. But, you know, and have someone go, that's fine.

It's okay to shout and it's okay to relapse and go back to what you don't want to do. You know, just apologise for what you did and say that you shouldn't have done it because modelling behaviour is just so powerful within gentle parenting. Let me bring in Dr Penelope Leach. Good morning. Good morning.

You've seen a lot of trends over the years. What do you make of the way this is being couched? I'm delighted to have gentle parenting being talked about widely by lots of people. I mean, it's a mode that I was talking about when I first wrote Your Baby and Child in the 70s. That's half a century ago. And it's a main reason why I've written a new version that just came out last month, because I have a bit of concern about the effect on parents

of this current trend, because I think we just heard it goes against a lot of people's instincts. And I do think gentle parenting has got to be gentle on the parents as well as on the children. And if you're continually having to make efforts to treat your child in particular ways, particularly if you're trying to have a particular vocabulary, for heaven's sake, it doesn't sound to me like for everybody, it'll be a comfortable relationship with a growing child. What is the solution to that? Or what have you advised around that trying to get to a place where it's not, you know, difficult for the parents as well as trying to do right by the child? Well, if I can go off at a tangent for a minute, I think it very much depends on the parent-child couple. And by the way, we're not hearing much about fathers, which I regret because they're terribly important with children but um i think what's lacking is the sense of the importance of

understanding child development a lot of our um issues particularly with young toddlers arise because we don't understand where his brain development or her actual thinking has got to. And often we're asking things that are actually impossible for the child. And that's bad for both parent and child. I think we need to bear in mind a saying that we use in my family, which goes, you can't be happier than your least happy child and I believe that implicitly I found it to be true with my own and I've watched it be true with my grandchildren so if you're struggling with a system on TikTok or whatever that isn't easy for you, isn't comfortable for you,

then perhaps you need to think again and maybe even turn elsewhere for the advice you're looking for. There's a message here from Julia which says, wouldn't we all like to be gentle parents? Sounds lovely, doesn't it? The problem is that parents are human beings and there's a point of exasperation when gentleness goes out of the window. Or perhaps it's not a problem as children have to learn how humans operate. If they grow up thinking no one will ever get cross, whatever the provocation, they will have a rude awakening sooner or later, which goes some way to what you're saying, Dr. Penelope Leach, and how it is for the parent. But I suppose that challenge really is towards someone like you, Kelly, who's putting this content out there. So that's another thing is that I'd love to sort of pass the message on as well within gentle parenting. Again, it is widely spread all over social media and there is a lot of judgment. There's so many different sort of lanes of it where you can get things wrong and you're watching this content thinking oh my goodness I feel like absolutely everything that I say to my child is somewhat wrong or I'm going to mess them

up somehow what the nice thing is about gentle parenting is you can just cherry pick what you feel comfortable doing with your child um and I certainly have done that and I've given myself grace um that you know I understand that i i have days where i feel particularly stressed i'm not going to gentle parent as well as i would other days um and i just think you need to just give yourself grace with that um a hundred percent but with regards to i mean i get this question a lot you know how is george going to be prepared for the the big world if you're sort of gentle parenting him and the simple answer is um that he will grow up with emotional intelligence. So for me, for example, I've had many managers who micromanage me.

I curl up into a ball and I start crying and I don't voice my emotions to them. But George will have that emotional intelligence to be able to think how he's feeling, how they're feeling, and then be able to properly express his emotions rather than lashing out, rather than getting upset. He'll be able to self-regulate throughout his life and how incredible that is to teach him at a young age rather than somebody learn that through adulthood. And then also... Sorry.

You would hope. I mean, that's the thing. All of this is the hope, is the ambition. When was the last time you shouted at George? Probably about three days ago. Okay. Just because I think it's also good to have those moments where we talk about those days as well. Because I'm not saying that's,

I'm not making a judgment either way on that, but it's more the reality of someone who's putting this content out there. And as you say, some people receiving it, not in a very good place at all and trying to do the best they can kelly it's good to talk to you thank you for your honesty kelly medina enos there and dr penelope leach lovely to have you on the program thank you very much for for bringing us into kind of the context of this and what's been talked about over the years and different trends and your message is also coming in as well.

Lynn says, flipping heck, Emma, isn't gentle parenting what got us into this mess in the first place? Young people need boundaries, ground rules and a clear understanding of actions and consequences. Good. Full stop. Grief. Full stop. Best wishes, Lynn, with a smiling emoji at the end of it. And so they continue. I imagine they will. And many more coming in. We've already seen across our social media platforms. But let me tell you about the latest in a particular court development here that we wanted to make sure you were across, but also as a wider understanding of crimes. Wayne Cousins is serving a whole life sentence for the rape and murder of Sarah Everard in 2021. He has appeared this morning at the Old Bailey at a plea hearing

for flashing offences he allegedly committed prior to this. The former Metropolitan Police officer is being charged with two counts of exposure in the Dover area in 2015 and the Deal area in 2020. We understand Wayne Cousins was not actually asked to enter a plea, however, amid ongoing industrial action by barristers. So we don't know how he's going to plead at this stage and whether this charge will lead to a trial. But what we did want to do was explore the subjects of so-called indicator offences, those more low-level offences which could lead to more serious crimes.

To do that, I'm joined by Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, who was responsible for inspecting 15 police forces, and Kieran McCartan, Professor of Criminology at the University of the West of England. Welcome to you both. Zoe, do we take now that police are taking incidents like flashing seriously enough as indicator crimes? Morning, Emma. They're getting better. You know, a few years ago, as you said in your intro, crimes of flashing and decent exposure would have been seen as low level. Some police forces were seeing it as an indicator crime. And by that we mean it's a really high risk thing to do, isn't it? It's a real threat to the woman. It's a demonstration

of lack of inhibitions. And it can be an escalated crime in that it can lead to further, more serious offending, more harmful offending. And forces are recognising that and they have to, I mean, goodness me, if we haven't learned any lessons from the tragic murder and rape of Sarah Everard, then we should be shamed as a society. Absolutely, the police need to be putting this as a top priority and making sure that women are listened to. One of the things I find surprising is how many women have been flashed at. But it is it's it's a method of control and it needs to be treated as that. How should these, I mean, I remember we were speaking actually on the day that Wayne Cousins was sentenced and a lot of people, of course,

hoping, especially women, for changes. But how do you think these lower level sexual offences should be dealt with to avoid escalation? So I think, first of all, the police need to take the report seriously and they need to encourage women to come forward there is it is an epidemic of flashing but there are only in inverted commas 10 000 reported crimes there's many more than that we know that so the police should be actively encouraging women to report they should be building up intelligence about where those crimes are happening we know emma that they tend to happen in places like parks, in alleyways, by the side of the road. Flashes come back and flash in similar

places. The cops need to be doing targeted patrol and getting onto that. And when they get the reports, they need to be making sure that they're investigating these crimes and not putting them over to a desk that is simply going to look at closing down the crime as quickly as possible, rather than sending an officer, rather than talking to witnesses, looking at CCTV and doing a proper investigative job. Kieran, good morning. How common is it for offenders to commit indicator offences and then to escalate to worse crimes? So it's a complicated picture, but what we do see is that people who go on to commit contact offences don't commit contact offences from nowhere. There is usually a history, although most people are unknown to the authorities for a contact offence when they're initially arrested or investigated they may be known for either antisociality or other non-contact offenses so for instance

thinking about prevalence for a second between five to ten percent of people who either display exhibitionism or indecent exposure go on to commit a contact offence. So there is a sort of comorbidity there, but it's more about the individual in question, which is one of the challenges around prevention and intervention, because not everyone's going to react in the same way. But just building on what Zoe said, I would agree with her, where between one to two thirds of women across their lifetime have experienced some form of exhibitionism. And do you believe that there are ways to stop the escalation? Yes there are ways to stop it and we're certain to see more preventative work coming out from the

place so we've got to remember that the the function of the police have changed in the past 20 years from being a very reactionary force to doing more prevention, more disruption, more intervention. It's about having services available once you intervene and once you're aware of people to detract them from continuing with the behaviour again. But this is politically and socially controversial because you will hear arguments that it takes away from victims' rights, that it supports potential perpetrators. But the reality is we need to start looking at these things in a different light. So if we're looking at risk indicators and we're saying that risk indicators

are really important, then the question comes, well, what do we do with them? How do we intervene? So we have started to see some of this work coming forward with targeted interventions, whether it's psychoeducational or cognitive behavioural therapy, with some of these people who are displaying risks. They have to be reported in the first place as well, though, don't they? And that's another thing. Yeah, well, as we know, sexual violence is massively underreported. A piece of work that was done about five to six years ago by the Office of National Statistics indicated that rates of sexual abuse in England and Wales were bordering on half a million, which resulted in about 5,000 convictions. So we know that it's underreported. The CPS have been under scrutiny.

Even Keir Starmer was talking last week about the creation of rape courts. Again, if Labour were to get the power. So we know this is an issue. And that's the high level stuff. So when we start to go down to some of the what is, I would argue, inappropriately deemed lower level stuff, then you're starting to see a lack of reporting and a lack of recording people not wanting to go to the place for the same issues people don't report um exhibitionism and indecent exposure to the same issues that they don't report rape they feel embarrassed etc etc or there isn't the response in the first place when there's a message here saying i helped

a young mum mum who'd just been harassed by a man with his hands down his pants we couldn't get through to a police non-emergency number. That's when we stood a chance of getting him apprehended. Keira McCartan, Professor of Criminology, thank you to you. Zoe, very quickly, if you may, final word from you about the new Met Commissioner, Mark Rowley. He's said he's vowing to be ruthless in getting rid of misogyny and racism in the force itself.

How confident are you in that vow? I am confident. I worked with Mark when he was chief of Surrey. He's come in with a really simple message, more trust, less crime, high standards, and he's completely called out the inappropriate behaviours in the Met, not in the slightly defensive way that we've seen previously. And I think the starting point for solving the problems in the Met

is admitting that there's a very big problem that he needs to solve. And I think he's done that well in his first few weeks. Your line's slightly difficult there, but we persevered. We hope you could hear that. Zoe, thank you, as always, for your time. Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, who was responsible for inspecting 15 police forces. And as I say, just to restress,

Wayne Cousins has appeared this morning at the Old Bailey as a plea hearing for flashing offences he allegedly committed prior to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard, for which he's already serving a whole life sentence. And of course, we'll bring you an update on that. But we wanted, as I say, to talk about it in the point of view of indicator offences and what that means. And it's very interesting to already see very quickly you get a message there saying, well,

we couldn't even report it when we were trying to. And many messages coming in still about leadership and also about gentle parenting. And there's just a few here I wanted to come back to. The U-turn this morning talking about the Chancellor because we were hearing there was going to be no changes. It's now the start of the Conservative Party conference. It's underway. We've heard this morning the government's abandoning its plan

to abolish the top rate of income tax for the highest earners because it had become a distraction. A message here saying it was neither a sign of a strength or weakness. And another one here, they'll be crashed. These idealists will be crashed on the rocks of reality. And another one saying it's a sign of weakness. They don't seem to have fully costed all their tax cuts. And so it continues a real debate about whether there has been weakness

or strength when it comes to leadership and whether this is a good advert to girls and young women because we hear today about a study saying they're not that drawn to leadership. Well, let's talk a bit more creatively for a moment, shall we? A bit more artistically. Mr and Mrs Doodle, aka Sam and Elena Cox are on the line, a married couple of artists whose Kent home is attracting rather a lot of attention after an article and a series of photos in yesterday's Sunday Times. I was totally mesmerised when I saw this. Sam is an artist known for his doodles and he's gone everywhere in his home. It seems with a spray can, maybe other materials, and I mean everywhere.

I'm trying to describe it. We will post images. It's black and white all over from the external walls, it seems, to the toilet lid the toaster and even i believe his wife's skirt uh elena good morning i'll start with you in fact you're wearing i can now see on our video call uh the doodles good morning good morning emma yes yeah good morning to both of you it does look incredible i wonder elena is you're not the artist in this case i know you are an artist could could you just describe it a bit more for us the dress the dress or the designs of the house yeah well the house is full of doodles as my dress the dress was designed by Ukrainian designer and

doodled by Sam Mr Doodle and Sam you spray paint this is that how you do it uh well all the drawings of the inside of the house are all drawn with pen. And then the outside of the house is all done in spray paint. So, yeah, a mixture of the two, really. Why your whole house and why the outside as well? Well, my dream for a very long time has been to do this to a house, to find the perfect house and eventually cover it with doodles so that the entire thing is completely consumed by a happy doodle virus

and we can live inside it and just be happy all the time living within doodle land, I guess. Are you happy all the time living in doodle land, Elena? Have you got a headache? No, no, actually from the first day we've met, Sam told me about his big dream to one day buy a big white mansion and doodle over it so i wasn't aware where it's going um yeah no it's actually quite happy place and it's i find it calming to be honest it's i mean it's extremely beautiful but there's so many

details within there and i know there's different themes sam is that right in each room yeah that's right like the bedroom is uh all got lots of sleepy characters that all look like they're falling asleep going to bed. And then the hallway is kind of a Noah's Ark theme with two of every animal. And the kitchen's all about food and the preparation of food. So each room has really a different theme that kind of represents that room in a way.

How long has it taken? I started the process in September 2020 and I finished just a few days ago really so two years it's taken. Well congratulations what do the neighbours make of it? Well we actually met two of our neighbours the other day and we were talking about it and fortunately they were quite supportive and positive about the whole project and people have actually turned out to be quite happy about it. We were quite worried when we first moved in that people would maybe be a bit negative and not want it to happen.

But it turns out that people have really enjoyed it and found it quite a good thing. Elena, I mentioned you are also an artist. Have you been a part of this? Have you been helping create? I offered to help to create Doodles and how it's been rejected but I was in charge of decorating and creating the white space for Sam so sourcing all the white furniture and details yeah Elena painted a lot of the pots and pans in the kitchen white and sourced white sofas chandeliers and everything

like that and really helped um to create the space as like a perfect white canvas for me to do the doodles um yeah but sometimes we work together and actually Elena likes to color in my doodles um so we did a whole exhibition before where I created about 120 paintings and Elena colored them all in uh in her own in her own special way of colouring. And yeah, we like to collaborate, don't we? Yeah. Elena, what if you go off it? What if you don't like it?

No, I really like it. And we're kind of weird. We like to spend time together like all day long. It's perfect for us. So yeah, when we create new ideas, it's great. Is colouring in allowed? Because it is very monochrome.

I mean, the whole thing's black and white, isn't it? Yeah, not for this house, but in the future, we might have plans to do maybe another property or something where we do add colour. I think it could be interesting. Elena, I know that you are Ukrainian from Kharkiv and you managed to get your parents out of Ukraine before the war started. Do they live with you in this property?

Do they have to contend with these amazing walls? They quite often visit us, but they live in their own house. We bought it just before it all started. But we didn't plan for them to move so quickly. But yeah, they live and happily visiting us and helping us. Yeah, they're really nice. They're sort of my biggest fans. They're always wearing Doodle clothes and representing the Doodle brand.

I do understand it, and you correct me if I'm wrong on this, but did you start by doing this on your on your parents furniture, Sam? Because I'm just I'm thinking about the fact we've talked about gentle parenting on today's programme. What I would do if if my little boy started doodling on our sofa. Yeah, I mean, well, I managed to convince my parents to let me draw on some of their furniture when I was around 13, 14 years old. And then they let me, after a long conversation, they let me draw on my bedroom. But there were limits to it. They didn't let me draw on the living room and the kitchen and stuff.

But they did let me have my own space. But you were drawing on some of the furniture with pen? You were spray painting it? Mostly with pen. Sometimes with spray paint or with a brush. But, yeah yeah mostly pen. Yeah they're quite, they're really supportive parents. Maybe the original gentle parents according to what we're talking about elsewhere in the programme today. Well Sam and Elena it's quite the sight, we will share some of the images, I know you've given us some to share and you're

even dressed in it, I mean the fact that you blend into your background, I mean, that's a whole other level of commitment. Do you do an underpant range as well? Bras? Are we talking the whole way here? We're working on a few things at the moment. Doodle to the core. Sam and Elena Cox, lovely to have you on the programme, both of you together. Thank you.

Thank you very much indeed. And thank you for your company today. There's many messages about parenting as we come back to, but we've got a message here saying, you know, I've got three different children and I need three different styles. That's what I have to do. How does gentle parenting work when the child doesn't want to put their shoes on and you have to get somewhere? Time constraints, massive part of this. And so it carries on. You're omitting a significant feature of today's parenting, which is that it a part-time activity added to the problem that people are sometimes in unsuitable environments and so it carries on thank you for your words as always i'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one hello this is marion keys and this is tara flynn and we're here to remind you that our podcast, Now You're Asking, is back for a new series. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, anything really. And apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help.

But also hopefully entertain. Join us, why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Radio 4, now available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.