Woman's Hour - Getting in and getting on in the music industry

Episode Date: November 1, 2019

How can young women get in and get on in the music industry? In a special programme, broadcast from BBC Music Introducing Live at Tobacco Dock in London, we discuss how to forge a career in popular music - the need to increase the number of women, careers advice, the challenges that have to be tackled, and what BBC Introducing is doing to help. With live music from singer-songwriter Maisie Peters and a panel of industry figures: Emma Banks, Carla Marie Williams, Rhiannon Mair, Abbie McCarthy, and Maxie Gedge.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Emma Wallace

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Tobacco Doc. Radio 4's Woman's Hour is very proud to be a part of BBC Introducing for the next 45 minutes or so. We are celebrating British women in music. We're also investigating how you go about getting into music as a career, whether it's as a performer, as a songwriter,

as an agent, as a technician, a producer, an engineer, there are some amazing possibilities out there. Our guide to this three-day event at Tobacco Docks in Shadwell in East London is Abi McCarthy. Welcome, Abi. How are you? Good morning. I'm good. How are you? Very well, thank you. Now, tell us a little bit about BBC Introducing. What is it? So, BBC Introducing supports unsigned, undiscovered and under-the-radar music. It's the place to go to if you're a new artist and you want to get your music heard. So, first of all, you'll get played on your local radio station.

If we really, really like it there, then we'll forward it on to all the big national networks like Radio 1, Radio 2, Six Music. We'll also put you on at festival stages at major festivals like Glastonbury or Reading and Leeds. You might get a slot on a playlist. Basically, we're a big machine and we're here to help you. And at the moment, we've got over 500,000 tracks on the BBC Introducing Uploader and over 200,000 artists. And we work.

There are so many success stories out there. You know, Florence the Machine, Jake Bud. They all started. Jake Bud even, not Jake Bud. He was good though. You know, Florence the Machine, Jake Bud. They all started. Jake Bud even, not Jake Bud. He was good though. He could be someone else that's coming through. Ed Sheeran, you know, all of these people got their first ever radio play through BBC Introducing. So anyone with talent, we should say, can turn up today or tomorrow and do what?

What do they do once they get here? So they can definitely go to loads of amazing panels and workshops, soak up loads great information but there are loads of other fellow bbc introducing presenters here they can go and say hello to them they can you know give them a demo but the best place to send music is always the uh introducing uploader at bbc.com slash introduce and you can do that from your bedroom at home exactly super simple okay and you mentioned those names, the Bugs, the Sheerans, Florence and the Machine. That is a huge success, starting right here at BBC Introducing. Yeah, that's what's so incredible, isn't it? I remember Florence played a gig for Steve Lamac on Six Music in Austin in Texas.

I think there was about 50 people there, and she ended up jumping in a fountain at the end, kind of getting everyone's attention. Obviously, not many people were there, but look where she's since she needed that initial support to get to get things going ed sheeran we gave him his first ever slot at a festival at glastonbury and i think he's done all right isn't he yeah well we'll talk more about him but we're really celebrating female talent here as ever on women's hour so here's just a sample of some of the female talent playing at bbc introducing over the next couple of days. Oh no, I should have regrets But I don't, must have thrown away I hate love, the devil on my shoulder wins

Don't let me down Don't let me down Don't let me down Don't let me down Don't let me down Those hands The way they glide across my thighs Those words Don't stop playing on my mind

Your stance The way you think is in my skin. You've got no idea how deep I'm falling. We are wicked young fools who behave now back in the arms of somebody who saved us. We are wicked young fools who behave now back in the arms of somebody who saved us. Give me the truth. Are we loving out of order now? I was lonely in my head. Did our emotions get watered down?

Out of order now. Something always tells me in the back of my mind Don't give up on this I know it's hard When I'm torn in between You and me and my dreams Never stopped loving you You heard from Lily Moore, Rika, Georgia, Olivia Nelson, Joy Crooks,

and we started off with the Mysterines. This is Woman's Hour, live from BBC Introducing at Tobacco Docks in Shadwell in East London. We will have live music later from a 19-year-old singer-songwriter called Maisie Peters. But now let's get stuck into some of the top advice we can offer you this morning. And if you want to get involved or contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or Instagram,

or you can email the programme via our website. Delighted to say that one of our Women's Hour music powerlisters is here, Emma Banks. Welcome back to the programme, Emma. Lovely to be here. From Creative Artists Agency, you are the woman who works with some gigantic names. Just reel off a few. Florence and the Machine, Lorde, Katy Perry, Celeste, Becky Hill, a few others. Okay.

Are you a frightening person? Terrifying. Yeah, okay. Until you know me. And then you warm up a little bit. Absolutely. But you must deal, what you have dealt, you do deal with some colossal egos. Yeah. what you have dealt you do deal with some colossal egos yeah but if you don't have a colossal ego at

least some ego you probably from my perspective can't perform very well yeah so you know it's scary getting out there and being on a stage and when you start and you're playing to seven people that's scary and then you get to the point actually i think bizarrely it's probably less scary the more people are in front of you why because well a because you've actually got to that point and you've practiced and you've done it but also because they're a bit more faceless so when it's that huge if you've ever seen those pictures of you know Ed Sheeran or Katy Perry or Kylie or Taylor Swift on the stage looking out it's just this sea of people

whereas when you're in a little club you're in the Camden Assembly you can see everybody's face and if they're not smiling that must be terrifying all right um well I'm just looking at the audience now none of them are smiling so um Rhiannon Mair is here as well producer and um engineer you are an engineer and you've worked alongside some big names too. Laura Marling you've worked with. Tell us about why you love what you do so much. I guess it's just making music, isn't it? And it's always incredible when you find some amazing, talented musicians

and you're the one that gets to bring their creative vision to life. and I think that's a really special process to be a part of. I was reading an interview with you in a techie magazine last night you just love the process don't you you really really do I mean it's a craft as well we should say. Yeah I mean I've always been interested in tech I used to go to my mum's gigs when I was like 10 years old and I was always by the sound desks, just probably like that really annoying kid who was like, what does that fader do? What does that button do?

And just, yeah. So I've always just been fascinated in how it works and it just has never felt like work, actually. I think that's... Was your mum a performer? She was, yeah. What kind of stuff did she do? Well, she was predominantly folk rock,

but she kind of was in this new age American duo called Kredwen. Were they successful? Yeah, they did all right in the States, actually. Right, OK. Well, I'm sure you're very proud of her. And next to you, Carla Marie Williams, songwriter, singer. You were nodding when Emma was talking about those, playing those small gigs and being petrified.

Was that what it was like for you at the start? When I initially started, yeah, you know know you were down those little bars and you know especially when the family come along and everyone's just looking at you and every note they can hear every note but when it's a sea of people you're just looking ahead and but you know I don't sing these days I'm all right so well yeah I mean you don't just say you write as though it's just a little sideline just talk about some of the people you have written for and with yeah over the years I've written for people like Alicia Dixon, Girls Aloud, Beyonce, Britney, Sean Paul.

You're a Grammy Award winner. Yeah, we won on Lemonade. I wrote a song called Freedom for Beyonce, which was on the album, and it's crazy. It was so surreal. I still pinch myself every day to say I was in the studio with her singing back to back we were going ham back to back I just can't so what can you take just take us into that space

um was it the middle of the night I always picture these incredible things happening at about 10 to 3 in the morning don't tell me it was half 10 in the morning that doesn't seem the same do you know what it was such a surreal experience there was no time it was like we'll just get there and would be there all day and on the third day of being in the studio she just turned up I don't know what time it was there's no windows and it was actually in the studio and that Michael Jackson made thriller and she just turned up and was just getting on with it and how much does the atmosphere change when Beyonce walks in she didn't come with an entourage. She didn't? No. She just came with one person and it

was very relaxed and it was I felt like she was my friend as soon as she got in the room. You've met Emma Beyonce? I like the fact she turned up on the third day. I think that's meaningful. That's deliberate. If I was Beyonce, I'd turn up on the third day.

Exactly. If I turn up at all. You know what I mean? It deliberate if I was Beyonce I'd turn up on the third day exactly if I turn up at all I know I do not really it was totally unannounced and you just you're like there you're vibing and then all of a sudden

she just comes in everyone's the boys in particular I was with two guys and they just kind of like froze and they were just like looking around like

oh god what are we going to do now but it was great I should say you wrote one of my favourite songs The Boy Does Nothing yes which is a song about an inept man in terms of being

help in the house. And it's just a great song. Just remind people of how that one goes. Yeah. Talisha Dixon. I got a man with two left feet and when he's dancing it's not to the beat. I love that song. He does nothing, the boy does nothing. It'll shoot up. Go and stream it

now. Well, actually, no, keep listening to us. And with us as well, Maxi Gedge, who runs now, I've got to get this right, Maxi, the PRS Foundation Key Change Initiative for Gender Equality in the UK. Yes, that's correct. So I work for PRS Foundation, which is the charitable funder of new music

and talent development. And I haven't worked with Beyonce, but for the record i'd like to yeah um but we we do fund carla's organization girls irate so at prs foundation we give out about 500 grants every year um to support new music um and that's grants for um artists and songwriters at all career stages and across all genres and you have a band graceland yes graceland is my band check them out yeah um but i'm at prs foundation i'm the key change project manager so um we are an international initiative

um that is attempting to transform the future of music and we encourage organizations to sign up for a gender pledge um to kind of ultimately aim for a more equal music industry all right let's put that one back to emma then Just how unequal is the music industry? It's a lot more equal now than it was when I started, that's for sure. I think female artists, it's still a little bit tricky. What's interesting, actually, when acts go on tour and they take a support act,

the male artists never go, I can't have a male support act. It's got to be a girl. When they say that, they're sort of doing a favour to the girls, it always feels to me. In the nicest possible way, but that's what it is. Whereas a lot of female artists never want a female to support them, which I find really disappointing.

Well, maybe they're, I don't know, maybe they're threatened by it. Maybe they think it's too much girl. How can you have too much girl? That's impossible. Agreed. I mean, I'm really proud of... Katy Perry, for instance, I think almost every support she's ever had has been female. And she picks them, she's very much in control.

And I think she probably does it deliberately to make a point. When you start out what is the best way to start out and how much talent is genuinely required relative to luck? I think you need a huge amount of both and now more than ever because you know, as we just heard from Abby, there's hundreds of thousands of songs being uploaded to BBC Introducing and to all of the digital platforms. So to stand out, you've got to be really special because otherwise you just listen and it's like, oh, there's another song. So what do you do if you want to be true to yourself, but you also want to be successful? You want to make a living. Do you betray yourself?

Let's say you are a folk singer, but actually you see there's a gap in the market for something completely different. Do you just change tack and go after that? Well, it's a decision you have to make, isn't it? Because I think if you make music, you have to start from being so passionate about the music you make that you can't you can't

fake it yeah if you fake it everyone knows you faked it frankly so yeah if you're a folk singer and suddenly you have the revelation that you actually want to do some techno album if it's coming from a real true place then go and do it but if you just think you can make a techno album there are people that love techno making techno albums that will be better than you at it. The reality is this is a hugely difficult business to get into. It has a massive failure rate, not only for artists, but for people that want to work in the business.

Right. So make music because you love making music. And if you can make a business out of it, that's fantastic. Carla Marie, you are a hugely successful songwriter would you say that you I don't want to put you didn't fail as a performer or what happened? I think what happened for me was that I was given the opportunity to write songs and as soon as the checks started coming through the post I realized that I wanted a life an easier life because being an artist is

tremendously hard being at the forefront having to do photo shoots having to do the shows having to do all that I would go to work at the production company I worked with Zena Maynard big up Brian Higgins thank you for the opportunities and I would go to work at 12 and I'd be watching Emmerdale by 7 and I was really happy yeah well Emmerdale's not always a place of safety, is it? I mean, all sorts of things go on there. So you really, you chose it for the lifestyle then that it offered you? No, I guess what happened, what really happened was

I was being an artist, I wanted to be an alternative artist. Being a woman and a black woman at that time, trying to do alternative music, there just wasn't any space for me in the industry. But that's wrong, isn't it? There should have been space for you. But they didn't know how to market um a black alternative artist at that time um so brian gave me this opportunity to write songs and i genuinely um did feel really happy

that i was now making an income for someone who was trying from leaving i left college to do music and for 10 years nothing was happening um and then I lost my voice for a whole year I had um severe muscular tension I had to go to speech therapy so it was almost like a sign like for me to just take a back seat and then I just ended up enjoying writing songs and within the first year of working with him I think I had my first number one and free songs so I was like who wants to do this anymore? There was a message somewhere. You're good at this. Keep at it.

Rhiannon, you studied at college, didn't you? How many women were doing, it was a music production course that you were on? Yeah. I mean, when I started that, I was one of two women. Out of? I mean, it was definitely over like 200 students on the course. But by the third year, obviously, there's always a dropout rate on courses in universities.

But yeah, by the third year, I was the only female on the course. But why was that, though? I mean, I don't really know. I don't know if I've got any kind of answers. It's just women just aren't, maybe just haven't had an interest in... Colour migration? Yeah, I think I'm just going to go back to some of Claire's points. of answers um it's just women just aren't maybe just haven't had an interest in collaboration yeah i think i'm just going to go back to some of claire's points um women we've been indoctrinated to one go up against each other not support each other um two men have a strive to want to achieve

much much more their threshold um and their resilience is much stronger than ours and i've found through doing girls irate that we give up quite easily. A lot of the females, they're chasing the money for the next day. It's more short-term thinking rather than long-term thinking. And I feel like maybe the reason why she was able to have resilience,

she just had resilience in what she's doing. Whereas if it gets hard, sometimes we get emotional and make excuses for ourselves in a way. And I'm not saying we don't have other um boundaries and limitations but i do feel like some of the responsibility we do need to start taking responsibility for ourselves okay we need to own it and admit that we sometimes give up perhaps a bit too easily maxi what you want to say um i i just think it's it we everyone faces

barriers in the music industry i mean we we know at prs foundation that people face barriers because of their gender not just women and gender minorities but everyone i mean look at the recent musicians union survey where 48 of their members said they had been sexually harassed at work i mean there's no surprise that there's a big drop off rate um at all career stages. And what we're trying to do at PRS Foundation is break down those barriers and make sure that whoever you are, you can realise your full potential. Yeah, I mean, Emma, that's a terrible statistic.

And it does indicate that this is, like so many other areas of professional life, it's not necessarily always safe for women. But it's a dreadful situation. I would agree. It is a dreadful situation. I mean, I don't know that particular study. And I'm always interested to know what harassment is. What level of harassment deems a, yes, I've been harassed? Because I think, you know, in life generally,

we all have to sometimes just get on with it. And some guys will say to women oh yeah you look great and for some women that's harassment and for other women it's the greatest compliment of all time so i mean it's it does slightly depend on a whole string of circumstances it depends on a huge amount and it's the you know the intent behind the comment or and obviously if there's action involved far worse um now i can't remember what you asked me don't worry i think i think it kind of also i mean it's looking at the effects of that harassment and how it affects like those women because like most men aren't even aware that

they're the one that is like doing the harassing they may just get on with their life and go on and to be successful and like for some women like it really affects them like so much so that they feel like I don't know if I can continue doing what I'm doing it really knocks their confidence um and so I think that's what kind of needs to be looked at and addressed can we just talk briefly about um Ed Sheeran's name has cropped up now there is absolutely no denying his prodigious talent however I would just want to put out there the idea that there are no equivalent female performers who look like Ed Sheeran in the sense that Ed Sheeran is... What are you saying? I am saying that Ed Sheeran is, and he would say this himself, I think, not Hollywood handsome,

and he is allowed to be Ed Sheeran. Check shirt, jeans, does his thing. Oh, go on, take me up on that, Carla Marie. What do you want to say? Go on. I mean, I'm not going to say any names because some people might think they're Hollywood ready and I don't think they are. So I'm going to... What I was going to say is that people

of... It shouldn't be down to how you look in order to succeed in music. And of course it shouldn't, but it's easier to be a man who isn't in order to succeed in music. And of course it shouldn't, but it's easier to be a man who isn't Hollywood pitch perfect, Hollywood ready. And I think that's why it's important to make change and to try and swing the pendulum the other way

so that things can become more equal. And when you're starting out as a musician, everyone has the same opportunities because we know that talent is everywhere but opportunities are not but I do feel when Adelpha started out she wasn't the you know the Hollywood ready type of female artist and she broke loads of barriers you know I mean she was she wasn't like oh I'm I'm you know been in doing all these type of things that they do in Hollywood she's just a girl from London doing her thing with an amazing voice and she

broke those barriers. So she was kind of like our Ed Sheeran equivalent to me, as opposed to maybe being like a J-Lo, you know? Yeah, I mean, Guy Garvey is no relation of mine. I wish he was, because maybe I'd have a few more quid in my pocket. But the way he stands on stage, he's another, he's a slightly older version of Ed Sheeran he's not I'm not suggesting for one minute the man's unattractive but where are the equivalent women who can stand there in jeans trainers and a check shirt and be just be as can I be real with you yeah and I had this conversation this week with with a man who was helping me and I said he said to me can you sex up some of the pictures sexy up I'm like why does sexy always have to come in the equation and I guess that there is that limitation on us that's

been put there and that's where the boundaries come for women from the men who are still up the top but I was just about to say is it because for the majority like what I call them for gatekeepers yeah I still you know the majority of them are still men and as we say they don't realize the connotations of the things that they're saying and the things that they're doing and i've even felt that people will put you in a box and these men do put you in a box oh you need to look like this if you want it to work you need to look like this and then you find yourself compromising yourself you need to act like this if you want this to happen i think it's changing a bit though sorry just bear with me one Sorry, just bear with me one minute, Abby. Go on, carry on. I was going to say, I think there are definitely artists, you know,

challenging the idea of beauty and gender. Someone like Christine in the Queens has, you know, absolutely killed it in that respect. She just very much is her own person and does exactly what she wants on her terms. And I think people love and respect that, and it's so authentic. It really shines through. Emma, has there been a generational shift here?

Christine in the Queens is a good example, actually, of women who are simply not prepared to play those games anymore and don't feel they have to. I think you can look at Billie Eilish as well, can't you? Absolutely. Who doesn't wear what would be considered sexy by the guys that think you have to sexy yourself up. And Lizzo.

Lizzo. Lizzo's not doing anything. You look at Beth D ditto you know there's there's a huge movement for people to be happy in their own bodies and that's clearly within and without the music industry um yes i think everybody now everyone has more of a voice don't they social media has given people more of a voice to have a point of view. You know, I think the good thing is that stuff's talked about as well. You know, Rhiannon's absolutely right, that harassment is really how you receive it as well.

And for some people, they can laugh it off, brush it off, tell people they're an idiot. And for others, it festers inside you and horrible things happen. And we've all got to be open to talking to people, to helping people, and to take people's concerns really seriously. Can we talk about the business side of this? Because essentially, as a singer-songwriter, for example,

you have got to be, to a degree, entrepreneurial, and it may not be part of your skill set at all. And you then are very, very vulnerable, aren't you? Yes, you are. i mean of course when people talk to me about oh you know when do i need an agent when do i need a manager i generally think it's when the agent and the manager comes after you is when you need them you know when i get sent music and you go on to the sound cloud or and it's like seven listens. You're like, whoa, this is very, very early days here. And at which point, what, you wouldn't have any further trouble with them?

No, I mean, look, when you can... You've got to admire their cheek for asking, haven't you? You've got to, but of course, when it happens a lot, and we've all got jobs to do outside of trying to help everybody, you know, I think even if people are listening now, you've got to be proactive yourself, even if it is uncomfortable. And you know what?

Get your mate who is wheeling and dealing. That's how managers are made. That's really what they do. So you get your mate and then you upload to BBC Introducing and do all those things. Abby's going to say more about that. Just a sec.

We're listening. You're listening. We're listening. I'm listening to Woman's Hour on Radio 4. We're live at BBC Introducing in Tobacco Docks in Shadwell in East London and you just heard from Emma Banks who is a global music agent. Also around the table we've got the songwriter and singer Carla Marie Williams, we've got Rhiannon Mair who is a studio engineer and Maxi Gedge who runs the PRS Foundation Key Change Initiative and she also has her own

band called Graceland and you're just about to hear from Abby McCarthy, who's part of BBC Introducing. What do you want to say, Abby? I was going to say, the interesting thing about the music industry now is, like you were saying, artists have to be entrepreneurial. And really, it used to just be about concentrating on your craft and just making amazing music, and that was enough. But that's why I think today's event and the weekend of the event of BBC Music Introducing Live

is so important, because you can come down as a new artist and learn almost how to A&R yourself, how to manage yourself, how to do everything independently. I think artists now have to remain independent for longer. It takes longer to get noticed, to break. So something like this event is so important

and such a great way to network, meet fellow creatives, and hopefully come away with a whole network of friends in the meantime you do have to pay your rent don't you you do have to do that yeah rihanna's look on what do you want to say oh right well yeah i mean yeah it's you've got to make a living and that's sometimes where you i mean you mentioned earlier about kind of having to kind of uh make choices in kind of which which route do you go down i know you made earlier about kind of having to kind of make choices in kind of which route do you go down? I know you made a choice kind of, you know, I just want to, you know, make some money. She wants to get home for Emmerdale.

I was going to say, like, I agree with obviously the whole DIY generation and, you know, they need 70,000. But I feel like the music industry's now got lost in numbers and people are no longer a and r and like people are no longer spotting talent people are no longer believing in things they're obviously being dictated to by the numbers and i kind of just i'm a bit old school like i'm like yo i think that person's talented and i want to back that horse because i think it's going to be successful not based on what their numbers are saying. So I'm kind of like in a 2-2 situation where I'm like, you know, let's see the numbers or is this going to be,

do I think this person's a superstar and should I give this person an opportunity and open the doors that I can open for that person? Maxie? Well, just back to how you make money in music, I think, when you're kind of early career, of course check out prs foundation for funding opportunities but how much money might you get by the way can you give me an idea i've got no idea so anything from a thousand pounds to um if you're an organization 25 000 pounds do you have to be british you have

to be based in the uk um we've supported the likes of jade bird Sam Fender, Little Sims, Kate Tempest, at different stages in their career. And the point of it is to help them get from A to B. So giving them financial support where they might not be getting it elsewhere. Another tip would be, if you're early career, you should think about becoming a PRS for music and a PPL member. So once you start to play live, and once you start to get your tracks played on the radio,

if you're members of those organisations, you can collect royalties. Yeah, definitely. Can I just ask you, actually, can I get you on the numbers? You don't have to be really specific, although it would be interesting if you were. The track Freedom, you co-wrote with Beyonce or for Beyonce. How much, every single time that track is streamed or played on radio, anywhere in the world, you get money.

Yeah, we do get money. But obviously the whole streaming system is another conversation because now that's not in favour of songwriters. So we have a whole other situation on our hands. So basically we're just like fighting to obviously get what what what is rightfully ours as songwriters as well but just going back to maxi's point um prsf fund girls i rate our organization and we do female focused events that help get women heard we host an event called get heard every year so if ladies you know go to girlsirate.com and you want to get heard by major A&Rs, radio people,

I get people in early. Can you be any age? It's not any age. And the reason why I didn't do it... Don't look at me like that. I've got my dreams. Girl! We focus on women 16 to 13.

The reason why it happened in that way is when I left college, I was 16. And those are the times when you make informative decisions for where you want to go in your career a lot of people only fund young people up to the age of 25 when I was trying to get funding but I was like no I never got my first break until I was 26 without that man giving me that break Brian Higgins picking him up again I probably wouldn't be where I am now so I was like you know do up until 30 because i still believe that people are finding their feet as young people between 25 and 30 so i've had a lot of arguments with funders over it

but i'm still here but at prs foundation you can be any age to get our funding so check out check out prsfoundation.com quite literally any age yes well done thank you very much we know we've talked a lot about talent. Let's hear some. This is Maisie Peters. She's 19. She's from Brighton. She's a singer-songwriter.

And this is her song, This Is On You. Maisie. Thanks. So you're calling me drunk and you're outside a club And you're lonely in Soho And you hate everyone and you wish I was there It's no fun going solo Now you wanna be friends, always sad on weekends And that was your pick-me-up

And I would say pick-me-up, and I would say pick me up, but not anymore Cause who gave it all and held you up when nobody else gave enough? Who bailed you out? That was all me Who was your biggest fan, and oldest friend? Your steady hand, you traded in, but still stuck around That was all me An oldest friend. Your steady hand. You traded in. But still stuck around. That was all me. But this is on you.

It's your bed, babe. It's your funeral. This is on you. To my best babe. And you threw it all. Did all I could do. And you need me now. But I'm clocking out. But this is on you.

This is on you. This is on you. And I get that you're hurt, having issues at work, always fight with your father. But for years I was there, had your back. It's not fair how you took me for granted. I went down with the ship, always your therapist. Always your good luck charm Hanging on to your arm, but not anymore Cause who gave it all and held you up

When nobody else gave enough Who bailed you out, that was all me And who was your biggest fan, and oldest friend Your steady hand, you traded in, but still stuck around That was all me But this is on you It's your bed, babe, it's your funeral This is on you

To my best babe, and you threw it all, did all I could do And you need me now, but I'm clocking out So this is on you, this is on you Cause who gave it all and held you up When nobody else gave enough Who bailed you out, that was all me Who was your biggest fan? An oldest friend Your steady hands, you traded in

Still stuck around That was all me But this is on you It's your bed, babe It's your funeral This is on you To my best babe And you threw it all, did all I could do

And you need me now, but I'm clocking out. So this is on you. This is on you. Maisie, thank you very much. Fantastic. Maisie Peters, this is on you thank you very much Maisie have you what have you learned from what you've heard

this morning many things I learn things all the time from being here it's been amazing I've learned about what the PRS fund is

that's great I'll be telling many people about that I'll give you my card thanks I love this it's a business transaction live in action

no genuinely it's been so great listening in on this and hearing everything because especially I've just been wandering around a lot the past few days

and lots of people coming up to me and being like what advice do you have and it's exactly things like this that people just don't know about

and it's difficult you know I'm not like from a family of musicians my parents like teachers and I just had a YouTube channel and just like gave it a crack and now I'm here. But that's much more useful advice than give it a crack. You say you had a YouTube channel.

I mean, really basically, how do you go about that? Really basically, start a YouTube channel. Get a camera. An iPhone camera is fine. I recorded all my first videos on my mum's iPad. Yeah. get a camera an iphone camera is fine i recorded all my first videos on my mom's ipad yeah um and make sure you have good lighting because it stops you watching youtube videos so quickly if you can't see that's genuinely my best advice do it in front of a window you don't need a microphone

record it post it and emma you you actually do pay attention to stuff like maisie's youtube channel don't you you would You would do. Yeah, absolutely. We all... I mean, I think everybody around this table does. Listen, I sometimes have YouTube on in the background. I might not even be watching it. I discovered a brilliant artist on YouTube until I looked at the video, realised it was Dave, and he'd got about 40 bazillion views already.

I had not discovered him. So you thought that was the day you discovered Dave? I did, yeah. Everyone else had discovered him. Dave's so even i know who dave is yeah funded by prs foundation maxi you never miss an opportunity she is really really good i'll watch out for maxi um we'll be hearing about her a couple of people asking on twitter actually what about other forms of music this seems to be a conversation about contemporary, about pop music. Presumably a lot of these same bits of advice and information apply to the classical world as well.

Yeah, I mean, the classical world is not a world that I really inhabit. And it would so... I don't feel very well versed in what you should do because to me, a lot of classical music's written by dead people, isn't it? Ooh, it's going to go mental! Radio 4. We've done a lot of classical music at PRS Foundation. I think I would give the same advice. So find a community, find your space,

find the organisations that are there to support you. There are some amazing classical organisations that are supporting emerging composers as well. And at P.R.S. Foundation, we've funded composers like Anna Meredith, Hannah Peel, who are working in more of the contemporary classical sector. Yeah, and what we've got to bear in mind is that Britain... Emma's really regretting what she's just said, I can tell. She honestly feels...

I hate mail from Helen. I'm trying to redeem you. Britain literally fizzes with musical talent. There are some things this country is brilliant at, and music is one of them. And we just need to acknowledge that and celebrate it more, don't we, really? Because music of all sorts, genuinely. There are venues up and down this country all over this weekend

that are going to be rammed with people just loving the whole business. You absolutely love it, don't you, Carla Marie? Yeah, I still love music. I still love music, I don't like the business. OK, well, that's an important point why not um as i said like you know i still face my own challenges as a songwriter um where you know how can you honestly not be taken seriously now babe it's you know daily i get phone calls from from people within my team saying to me you know you've got to play the game you know you've got to do this you've got to do that and i'm just like well what if i don't want to do that and they're just like with me, you know, you've got to play the game, you know, you've got to do this, you've got to do that.

And I'm just like, well, what if I don't want to do that? And they're just like, well, these are the things you've got to do. You know what time it is. And I'm just like, actually, I don't, and I'm just not doing it. And then I look really difficult, and, like, I'm just not being cooperative, and I still struggle with it on a daily basis, playing the game, like, very much so.

What is the game, Emma? Well, it's the game i i don't know what are you and are you playing doing things you don't want to do you know sometimes it is happy but isn't isn't that being a grown-up in the real world a lot of the time i think we're lucky that actually a lot of the time we can do what we do want to do and we're not constrained by people telling us we can't so it's your call i think that jake gosling he done the whole first ed sheeran album he's my mate he's just wandered past it stop name dropping concentrate on the discussion the discussion is the thing is i think sometimes

with creatives and i put it out on my twitter this week i'm like you know as a creative we should be able to say if we are creatively interested in working on a project. Same with you. If you want to take on a project, does it stimulate you? Does it do it? I don't know where you're at in your career. Obviously massive. But would you take on something just because someone in the background has told you to?

Or is it because you want to do it? I don't feel I should go to the studio because someone wants me to do a favour for someone else. To a degree, though, compromise is inevitable, isn't it? Of one sort or another? We all go about our professional lives, all of us. What would you say about that, Rhiannon? Oh, go on. Oh, yeah, no, go on, you go.

You go on. No, I was going to say, I mean, life is a series of choices, isn't it? Yeah. And sometimes you take a choice that may not be the best one financially, whatever that might be, or might not be the best move for your career, but if you're not feeling it it's a little bit like the folk artist that was going to do the techno album we were talking about earlier if you're not feeling it then you shouldn't do it because this is art yes but in 2019 we live

in a like the industry is global we have more control than ever i think to create our own careers on our own how we want them to be and I think DIY communities are really important in the music industry I was really lucky growing up in Norwich to have access to Norwich Arts Centre which is a creative hub and I was surrounded by people who supported me and helped me define my career on my own terms and I think that's really important in the music industry. Yeah from what Carla Marie seems to be saying, though, is that for all the brilliant opportunities today's technology offers people, social media, all the different spaces, all the different platforms,

there are still some unwritten rules that you have to abide by. They're still unwritten. No matter what level you get to, you know, you feel that you're at a level and you can choose where you want to go. No, you've still got rules. And as you said, you can make choices and those might hinder your career or those might make you go forward. So sometimes you've just got to be resilient to what those consequences are. Emma, are you going to say something offensive about snowflake generation?

You know you want me to and you know I would. Well, go on then. No, things are different. I mean, my kids do things and believe things and say things that perhaps I sometimes think, ooh, a bit like you, maybe you do need to be a bit tougher and a bit more resilient. But am I being unfair?

No, I don't think you are being unfair. I feel terrible for anybody that is suffering from anxiety, mental illness, anything. It's a terrible thing. But I also think we have to be really careful that, you know, somebody looked at me in a funny way. Do you remember that 9 o'clock news sketch?

Yes, basically. Looking at me in a funny way. It was, you know, they were taking the mickey out of, even back then, the fact that everyone was getting super, super upset about stuff. Too much crap was put up with back in those days, which should never have been tolerated. Of course, and it's,

I think, there's still too much crap that's tolerated, frankly. A lot of the time, and I think, as women, we need to call people out. We shouldn't be afraid of it. And then you need to make sure that you've got people around you, and that's easier said than done, who will support you yeah let's just go around the table and get everybody's sterling bit of advice maxi what would you say um i would say um stay headstrong where you can

think about what success means for you and how you can get there and don't be afraid to curve your own to carve your own path and forget And get in touch with your organisation if you want a grant. Yes, go to prsfoundation.com and keychange.eu. Fantastic. And Carla Marie. I would say just keep big dreaming, guys.

Your ambitions are never too big. As Emma said, find people that want to support you in your dreams and follow girlsirate.com if you believe you're a female in the movement and you want to basically be empowered

and get opportunities. And Rhiannon. Yeah i think um just to surround yourself with like-minded um empowering women um for any producers engineers listening out there um please do uh sign up to vmpg music producers guild uh we're a community of producers engineers which kind of support um those in the industry and especially you know all the women all the female producers engineers where are you um come and talk to us emma well i'm quite a lot older than most of the rest of the people around this not older than me don't worry we can have an argument about that later i think you just have to do what you do do what you want follow your dream don't listen to anybody else you know what you might not become rich you might not become

famous but if you're happy and you can pay your rent then that's probably okay those are massive positives quick word from you abby i think instead of what if it goes wrong what if it goes right just do it try your best and see what happens you know that's a really really good point people who say you never know what's around the corner it could be something utterly amazing um i've really enjoyed it we should say that bbc introducing is at tobacco Docks in Shadwell in East London. Continues throughout today and tomorrow. It is the place to come if you want to get into and get on in the world of music. So thank you all to everybody who's taken part today.

Really appreciate it. Don't forget the highlights of the Women's Hour week is at two minutes past four tomorrow afternoon on Radio 4. And our guest on Monday is no less a person than Dame Helen Mirren. So have a very, very enjoyable weekend. Thank you very much for listening. Big round of applause for everybody who's been here today. Thank you.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.