Woman's Hour - Ghislaine Maxwell sentencing, Minister for Justice in Ireland, Dame Deborah James, Trans sport, music education

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

Ghislaine Maxwell has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for helping former financier Jeffrey Epstein abuse young girls. We speak to Equality Lawyer Georgina Calvert Lee about her statement in court where she said she empathised with the victims, and hoped her prison sentence would allow them "peace and finality". The killing of Ashling Murphy in Tullamore, County Offaly in Ireland in January 2022 sparked a huge public outcry, and has been seen as a watershed moment in how the country tackles violence against women and girls. Ireland has launched its third national Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based violence strategy. Emma speaks to the Minister for Justice in Ireland, Helen McEntee about what's in it.Dame Deborah James has died aged 40 from bowel cancer. The cancer campaigner, blogger, broadcaster and former teacher had been receiving end-of-life care at home. She was given a damehood in May in recognition of her fundraising. Emma speaks to Steve Bland, husband of Rachael Bland, GP Dr Ellie Cannon, and Julia Bradbury who has spoken about her journey with breast cancer.Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries has told UK sporting bodies that "elite and competitive women's sport must be reserved for people born of the female sex". We get the details from our reporter, Jane Dougall.The National Plan for Music Education was published by the UK government last Saturday. Called The Power of Music to Change Lives, their ambition is for every pupil to have at least one hour of high quality music education a week. We speak to Veronica Wadley, Baroness Fleet, the chair of the advisory panel that published the report, and YolanDa Brown who contributed to it as a MOBO award-winning saxophonist and Chair of Youth Music.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Chloe Bennett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Dame Deborah James, what a woman, what a campaigner, what a friend to us all, as well as a devoted mummy, wife, daughter, sister and teacher, in the truest sense of the word. Her family announced her death last night. She had lived for five years with bowel cancer and had become known for her honest yet joyful sharing of her experiences of being unwell and how treatment was affecting her. She shared that story and those details with her audience,

largely on social media, where she was known as Boulbabe and also via her BBC podcast You, Me and the Big C and also through her newspaper column. Over the last few weeks that community who had grown to know her, to love her, to care for her right across the UK rallied and helped Deborah raise nearly seven million pounds for research. I knew Deborah a little, mainly through work, and in my old job at BBC Five Live, where I worked with one of her podcast co-hosts, the wonderful woman and presenter Rachel Bland, who died in 2018, almost two years after being diagnosed with breast cancer,

and like Deborah, she was 40 years old. And what I know about these women is that being women and talking like women do openly, without blushes, generously sharing their emotions, their fears, their hopes, their concerns and also what makes them laugh was a big part of who Deborah and Rachel were as people. Women have made the personal political and by sharing their stories so candidly did so in a bid to help others and I wanted to ask you this morning as we remember the life force that was Dame Deborah James what have you shared about your life and why how did that sharing impact you or was it somebody else who shared with you and perhaps it changed how you felt about something you were

dealing with in your life at that moment Deborah Deborah said sharing helped her as well. She talked about it. She said if it was a bit selfish, that's what she was also going to be honest about because by having this community, she felt she was never alone when dealing with bowel cancer. But what about you? Tell me what you have shared and why. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour, on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, after a government meeting yesterday afternoon with the top sports bodies,

what has been decided, and what hasn't, about trans people's inclusion in women's sport? And the power of music education. We hear from two women about a new pledge to ensure children receive such lessons and have access to an instrument. But first, the British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell has been sentenced to 20 years in a US prison for helping Jeffrey Epstein abuse young girls and women. But it is what she had to say that we wanted to bring to your

attention. The judge, Alison Nathan, described Ghislaine Maxwell's crimes as heinous and predatory. She said Ms Maxwell worked with Epstein to select young victims who were vulnerable and played a pivotal role in facilitating sexual abuse. But it was after the sentence was handed down that Ghislaine Maxwell, making a very rare statement, read out her own words. And it's worth taking the time to analyse what she had to say. She started off acknowledging what victims had been through and used the word empathise. But then said, and I quote, I have been a victim of helping Jeffrey Epstein commit these crimes. She went on to say, my association with Epstein will permanently stain

me. It is the biggest regret of my life that I ever met him. I believe Jeffrey Epstein fooled all of those in his orbit. His victims considered him a mentor, a friend, a lover. Well, to go through those words and someone who's familiar with such statements, Georgina Calvert-Lee, an equality lawyer who specialises in feminist issues. Georgina, welcome back to the programme. Morning, Emma. Good to be here. You've read the full statement. What is your reaction? Because the word victim was perhaps not what people were expecting to be in Ghislaine Maxwell's statement. Yes, and it was a pretty bold move to put it in there. I mean, to me, the statement read quite familiarly in that it had this usual

awkward tension between someone who's been caught in a corner. And so on the one hand, they're desperately, well, they're desperately treading a line between on the one hand, trying to appease the victims and show that they feel some sort of compassion or empathy towards them and make the judge realize that they are a compassionate person and they themselves deserve a little bit of sympathy. While nevertheless, in this occasion, not accepting any blame. So she calls herself a victim and she does say sorry, but she says sorry in that very backhanded way that people are coming to recognize as almost another insult in that she doesn't say sorry that I caused you such damage and injury.

She says, I'm sorry that you feel so bad. I'm sorry for your experience, which is very familiar to victims that it's, you know, you could almost say that they're being gaslit into thinking why they're being so sensitive to feel so badly about it so that's how it read to me and it was kind of awkward there are a lot of details again from the victims that has you know just come out because they spoke again and i wonder how hearing the words from Ghislaine because we should also say we haven't heard from Ghislaine throughout this so hearing from her and having this statement is worth taking a moment to pause on and also try and figure out how regular this is in these sorts of cases but you know the details from from the victims who stood up were extraordinary about how this had impacted the rest of their lives never mind what it was at the time and I wonder you can't speak for them but but how hearing Ghislaine also describe herself as a victim in this will sit in these sorts of cases with those who have used their voice, waived their right to be anonymous and taken the stand. like another injury, another victimization.

I just explained how the apology, the so-called apology, was a non-apology which could be taken as a sort of weapon used against them. But the statement shows Ghislaine casting round for anyone to blame. So, of course, she blames Epstein. He deserves a lot of blame, for sure, so I don't blame her for that, but to call herself a victim of him in assisting, you know, she says, I'm a victim because he, he managed to make me assist him. So she's trying to take no blame for that. She also sort of blames the system and yeah, the system, the system, the prosecuting authorities have some responsibility too, because they had Epstein. He stood before them, she says, in 2005 and 2009 and then finally in 2019, where he was being accused of crimes and convicted.

I mean, he was convicted, I think, for 18 months back in the noughties. So I think victims will find this a really painful read. And I hope if they were my clients, I would explain to them where this statement lands, because this is not a gratuitous statement put out there by Ghislaine. It was put out for a very specific legal purpose. And what is that legal purpose? What's she trying to achieve?

When someone is convicted, when anyone's convicted, they have a right to put in a statement of mitigation, in a sense, saying to the judge, look, okay, I've been convicted, but I shouldn't get the worst possible sentence. You should make my sentence as small as possible because of so many things. And it may be that since the crime, they've turned a new leaf and they're helping the pillar and soul of the community. Or it may be that they say, well, actually, my role in the crime they've turned a new leaf and they're helping the pillar and soul of the community. Or it may be that they say, well, actually, my role in the crime is not nearly as bad as everyone seems to be saying, which is a really difficult thing for her to say after those

very moving and painful speeches by the victims. And so it had the immediate purpose of trying to reduce her sentence. But also, we mustn't forget that she is putting in an appeal against the sentence, against the conviction itself. Sorry. And I think probably now against the sentence. But she had already decided to appeal the conviction. So she has not admitted that she should be found guilty. So she's trying to get the benefit of mitigating her sentence, showing contrition to get a lower sentence without having to actually say sorry and apologise, because that would suggest that she is feeling guilty and that would really hurt her appeal of the conviction. Yes. And towards the end, she also makes that note about her incarceration. She says, I am sorry for the pain you experienced towards the victims, but I hope my conviction, along with my harsh incarceration, brings you closure. Yes, I noticed that. I'm not quite sure where she's been incarcerated now, but her attorneys asked that she go to a relatively low security incarceration centre in Connecticut, which I think the judge has approved. So yes, it's harsh if you've been living a wonderful life of wealth and opulence, as she must have been at some points in

her life, to suddenly find herself with restrictions. But it's certainly not the harshest of prisons, as I understand it. And yet also at the same time, I know you've been thinking about this, especially with know, in terms of getting justice for victims, speaking to that point about the men involved in this, it's an important point also to not lose sight of. Yes. I mean, ultimately, Ghislaine Maxwell is part of what seems to have been a great, not a great, but, you know, a big operation perpetrating crime and violence against women and girls. And it seems ironic that when so many people were involved and we are told that there were many men who were perpetrating the actual crimes,

the rapes and the abuse, that in that context, the only person standing in the dog is actually another woman. Now, I'm not minimising her participation and women can be guilty of horrendous crimes and she's been found guilty. So I'm not minimising that. I'm not suggesting she's a victim. But I do think that there were many other men involved. I was just going to say also, C in Somerset's written to say, just before you go, perhaps you can listen to this, Georgina, says, I've been in and out of abusive relationships over the years. I have known and been damaged by some particularly narcissistic men. As such, I empathize with both the victims and do sympathize with Ghislaine Maxwell herself. I think your coverage of Ghislaine's statement was rather one sided. She was both perpetrator and victim and has suffered terrible public

vilifications following Epstein's suicide. She does express remorse and I feel she does deserve some sympathy herself as a victim of domestic violence, she puts it, and coercive control. These things are complex. We will never know the whole truth. That's from somebody calling themselves C in Somerset. I think it's true that every situation is grey and we probably never quite know the whole truth because truth is perceived from different perspectives. We also don't know the details there of what C seems to be talking about with domestic violence and any of those details I just want to stress that but go on. Absolutely and I just I think today, though, is not a day for for sympathising with Ghislaine Maxwell. Another time, another time, maybe when we hear more details about what this whether she was subject to coercive control.

But on a day after victims have so bravely given their statements about their lifelong sufferings to themselves and their families and their relationships, I don't think it's right for us to start speculating on what sympathy should be afforded to Ghislaine Maxwell, though noting that maybe some should at some point and that it does seem a bit unfair that she's the only one facing a long, long sentence when many rapists get off with half that sentence. Georgina Calvert-Lee, thank you very much, an equality lawyer who specialises in feminist issues. And thank you to you for that message, but also your other messages coming in off the back of our discussion, which will follow shortly, talking to those who knew Dame Deborah James, the bowel cancer campaigner and general friend, it seems to us all,

or to the many who followed her work or were lucky enough to talk to her. We'll actually also hear a clip of an interview we did almost a year ago to the day that I did with Deborah, all that to come. But just in advance of that, you're getting in touch about when you've shared things publicly, private things, things that are hard to deal with with such as illness and what it's given you a message here from karen says i shared my diagnosis and journey through treatment and surgery on breast cancer and on social media across those platforms and then later my heart valve replacement and recovery it was a mutual support unit that developed helping me and others going through similar experiences. Thank you, Karen, for that. I shared with multiple friends and acquaintances

when we had a miscarriage after having our first two children. I'm certain that this made them feel comfortable sharing with me, who to all appearances has had no issues with pregnancies. I have four children, all approximately two years apart from each other, when they in turn suffered miscarriages. Morning. My name is Amanda Rees's message. I share my experiences of being a mother of a child, now 33 years old, with a severe learning disability. I'm a social worker and I work with families with children who are disabled. I acknowledge that it's a professional relationship but choose to share my story

because I find it helps reassure parents that I empathise and know in some way how it feels for them to be a service user. Thank you so much for that, Amanda, a genetic condition similar to Deborah's. By doing so, I know that there are people, some people who've checked their symptoms and made sure their relatives do their tests for bowel cancer, their fit tests, FIT. Information is power. And by sharing experiences, lives will be saved. Deborah was a force of nature and got us all to raise our game. RIP Dame Deborah James. Well as I say we will come to some of those who knew her, some sharing their own stories at the moment and also to speak about this from a medical perspective very shortly so do stay with me for that. But now to Ireland and a political plan

to improve women's lives. Well that that's the hope, I should say. You may recall the tragic killing of Aisling Murphy in Ireland in January at the start of this year. The 23-year-old teacher was attacked while jogging along a canal in broad daylight. Her death sparked a huge public outcry and has been seen as a watershed moment in how the country tackles violence against women and girls. Yesterday marked the launch of Ireland's third national domestic sexual and gender-based violence strategy, which hopes to go some way in addressing these issues. Well, joining us to discuss it in her first UK broadcast interview since that launch is the Minister for Justice in Ireland,

Helen McEntee. Helen, good morning. Good morning. Hi, Emma. Could you explain perhaps what's different in this strategy compared to the previous two that have been published? Well, I think what's different about this strategy is that we have actually co-designed it and written it with those who are working in the sector. So those who deliver services in particular to organisations are National Women's Council and Safe Ireland, who are umbrella groups for many, many organisations, refuges, support services right across the country. And I suppose we felt, and I mean, we started this work about 18 months, nearly two years ago, we felt that it was important that they were front and centre and that they were part of this journey, I think, that we need to go on. We've obviously built on the previous two strategies, my predecessor, and tried to make sure that obviously the work that had been done that we

built on that. But we also focused it on the four pillars of the Istanbul Convention. So looking at prevention, looking at education and awareness under that pillar, looking at protection. So how do we support victims, make sure services are there, make sure that they come forward. Prosecution, obviously, as Minister for Justice, how do we make sure that those who are guilty of these kinds of offences, that there are penalties at the end of it, but also that we have appropriate programmes in place. And then finally, coordination. And I think that's really one of the differences in this strategy, is that we have a whole-of-government response, so every single action in this plan has been agreed right across the various different departments it has been funded we have an oversight structure now we have our head of government department of on t-shirt and my own

department who will meet on regular intervals to make sure that everybody is doing the work that they have said they would do but also we we are, for the first time, establishing a national agency. And this agency will have sole responsibility for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. So delivering services for developing refuge and accommodation, for raising awareness, developing campaigns, but also making sure that we have data. The last sexual assault and violence survey in Ireland

was conducted back in 2002 so as you can imagine 20 years later it's a very different picture so we've committed to doing those on a more regular basis and making sure that the data informs everything that we do. A lot of information there, grateful for it but just to break it down a bit I mean there's a very ambitious target, zero tolerance across Irish society for domestic and gender-based violence. How on earth are you going to achieve that?

Well, you know, a lot of people ask, well, what is zero tolerance? What do you mean when you're talking about zero tolerance? And I would break it down maybe into three things. Firstly, it is and will require quite a different approach and attitude to domestic and sexual violence. So it's not accepting or tolerating any form of abuse, be it violent, physical, sexual, financial, emotional abuse, simply because it happens behind closed doors, because it's in a private relationship, because it's in a family setting. And that's been allowed to happen for too long. So it's calling out with each and every one of us

to stop being bystanders, but it's also taking this issue more seriously. So just because something happens in a relationship, it shouldn't be seen as a lesser crime. And we need to do that by, again, changing people's attitudes and behaviours, changing how our frontline providers deal with people. Sorry to break across, but how, you as a politician,

how are you, you know, you can't be in someone's home. Yes, you can create deterrence in terms of prosecution, the way it's treated once the violence has happened. But I suppose the massive issue, the issue that very few seem to be able to get to grips with, regardless of where they work, is how to change the men's minds the boys and men's minds not all boys and men but the ones that do this and it is women being killed by men

you know men are also killed by men but it's women in this instance being killed by men this is about gender-based violence how do you get into that and stop that from happening well you're right i can't be in every home i can't be in every whatsapp group where there's misogynistic behaviour, where there's attitude, I can't be in every position. I can put the policy in place, I can put the laws in place, I can work with service providers, I can make sure that when a victim comes looking for help that those services are there and that they are victim centred but this requires a much bigger shift. And that's why, for the first time, this policy really focuses on education.

It is getting back to the basics. So how do we, from a young age, and I appreciate there are people who are now in adulthood, and that is a much more difficult thing to do, but how do we, from a younger age, talk to young people quite simply about what a healthy relationship is, what an unhealthy relationship is, an abusive relationship looks like. How do we as adults or young people turn into adulthood talk about what a healthy sexual relationship is? And we only have to look at the fact that pornography

is playing a huge part in actually influencing what young people think and see their sexual relationships and what they should be. So there's a huge focus on obviously trying to prevent this from happening. But for those who are currently in this situation, because there are thousands of women in Ireland, in the UK, right across the world who are currently experiencing this. So the only way that you can support them is by making sure the services are there, by making sure that there is information available to them where to seek help, by making sure that those who they seek help from, that they are educated. So there was a huge focus on Garda Síochána, so our police, our legal professionals, our

healthcare professionals, our schools, that there is greater education there. If you look at the, just to the police and the reporting side of this, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre estimates only 14 of rape cases are reported to the authority that are reported to the authorities are going forward for trial you've said yourself the number of prosecutions for domestic or sexual violence is just too low that is a very difficult one to to change because it comes to trust between women and authorities and as i'm talking to you very very aware, obviously, in the last 12 hours or so, we've learned that the Met Police

has been put into special measures after a series of misconduct and concerns about how things are being handled within that police force. There's a real trust issue, isn't there? And the numbers are far too low. One of the first plans that I probably,

and one of the first areas that I've worked on when I became minister two years ago was a plan focusing solely on our criminal justice system, how it's experienced by victims of domestic and sexual violence and how we can improve that system to encourage more people to come forward, but to make sure that when they come forward that there are more prosecutions and at the end of the day that those who are guilty that they will face the consequences and that victims know they will be supported and trusted so there are quite a number of things that we need to do here again it comes down to training so first person that a victim turns to if they don't treat them right if they don't have the right response if they don't encourage them and help them along the way then you are not going to get that person coming forward because they simply feel there is no point. So that is the first port of call and we have already started specialist training for those working in our police service. But beyond that then, it is how do you make sure that you work with the victim to get the best evidence possible? How do you make sure then the Director's

Office of Public Prosecution, that they then are equipped to make sure that they have the evidence to be able to bring forward a prosecution and on that we now have a special office in our DPP or director of public prosecution but then beyond that if it goes to trial how do you make sure the judiciary understand how to deal with the case particularly where you have such a sensitive issue that there is support for the victim along the way, be it legal support or emotional support. And how do you make sure

that they are not re-traumatised? Because that is a huge problem as well. It is. It feels re-traumatised along the way. We do speak to victims and survivors about that exact issue when they have gone forward. Just finally, as Minister for Justice in Ireland,

you talk about the ambition to have zero tolerance across Irish society for domestic and gender-based violence. You've talked about this funding, 363 million euros, a five-year strategy, which I presume will be split along the priority lines. But in terms of accountability, the implementation plan, there's 144 actions to be carried out by relevant departments is that at the end of the five years that they all have to be in place and and who's going to be held accountable if deadlines are missed so the 144 plans are across this strategy and obviously as you'll expect it is a living breathing plan so you might have more you might have less depending on the outcomes of some of the actions that we have a number of oversight oversight structures and mechanisms so our head of government will chair a committee with myself or whoever is in justice

to make sure that we have regular meetings looking at these actions who is completing it's not just government departments we have state agencies and then we will be collaborating with the sector and those providing services you have a number of actions then that will probably translate and will continue but it is very much the intention I fully accept that it's ambitious there are a lot of actions but my experience working in this department and others is where you set yourself a detailed plan give yourself timelines who is carrying out these actions you're much more likely to achieve. And I really think because we have everyone on board,

there's nothing in this plan that nobody has not agreed to. Because we have that commitment, I think, from everybody, I'm much more confident that we can get this done. Helen, we'll talk again, I hope. Helen McEntee, Minister for Justice in Ireland. And I should say there's probably a lot more we will talk about. I know prior to that role, you were Minister of State for European Affairs. And there's quite a lot going on with Ireland when it comes to European affairs and what's going on with the House of Commons and particular votes around the Northern Ireland Protocol and all of those things.

But we didn't get to cover that today. Come back to Women's Hour soon and talk to us, please. That'd be great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now to Dame Deborah James, the tributes that are being paid. She danced her way through chemotherapy, sharing each step of her five and a half year illness with an honesty and a, to use her phrase, a rebellious hope that touched thousands of lives. who has passed away aged 40. Her family shared the news last night on her Baobab Instagram account. Dame Deborah's family described her as the most amazing wife, daughter, sister, mummy. Prince William and Kate Middleton have paid tribute to, as they put it,

an unfalteringly brave Dame Deborah James following her death. You'll remember Prince William actually visited her quite recently at her parents' home to award her that damehood and pay tribute to what she has been doing and continue to do with regard to raising money and raising awareness of bowel cancer. I was very lucky to have Dame Deborah join me on Woman's Hour, actually this time last year,

as she navigated intrusive treatment, dwindling energy supplies and invitations to Wimbledon. In fact, she told me about going to Wimbledon just 12 hours after leaving hospital. And I asked her about the effort it took to get there. I was lying there and it was one of those situations where, well, it's the Wimbledon final. How often are you invited to the Wimbledon final? And it is literally a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I don't have the luxury of kind of saying, oh, well, it might come around again. I don't think any of us do, actually. And so you kind of have to grab it. But unfortunately, it does take a bit of an army to persuade you. You have that kind of conversation in your mind that says, can I do this? I can't do this.

I don't have the energy. No, I need the help and support to do it and you know it's snapshots it's snapshots of two hour windows where you feel well enough to make the most of that opportunity and I think people what people don't see behind the scenes is if I'm having a kind of rough period which I certainly am at the moment is it might take two days sleep in order to have that two hour window um but people often say to me well you know they they they see this image on social media of me as a very positive person and like you said hopefully I portray both sides of the story and they say how do you do it uh what's your best advice and I say actually sometimes um you know I well obviously all the time I'm not positive all the time but the reality is that I

can't think about the future. I don't know what the future looks like. If I thought about the future four years ago, I wouldn't be talking to you now. And sometimes in the moments of darkness, actually, I can only think about the next hour. It's kind of, how am I going to get through an hour? And if somebody says to me, well, you know, I just can't cope with it. I kind of say, well, break your day down so much that you put things on your list, like get up and get dressed, because then you are already winning. And if you achieve that, and that's all you achieve in the day, well done. Because sometimes we have such rough days, actually, we have to celebrate if we've just made it through the day. Dame Deborah James talking to me this time last year.

Steve Bland's wife, Rachel, I mentioned her right at the top of the programme, someone I used to work with at Five Live, I had the pleasure of working with her, was one of Deborah's co-hosts on the You, Me and Big C podcast, which they founded together. And Steve joins me now. Steve, good morning. Good morning, Ella. Thanks for being here. It's lovely to have you. My pleasure. Not an easy morning to be talking. me now steve good morning good morning thanks for being here it's lovely to to have you my pleasure

not an easy morning to be talking um probably not easy to hear her voice either but there there's so many people sharing so many amazing bits of you know video or conversations with deborah today aren't there oh i mean it's it's been extraordinary and and i know that her family have been you know watching and taking note and reading the tributes and watching all the amazing things on TV and listening on the radio as well. And, yeah, that's the thing with Dad. She was remarkably generous with her time.

And you'll see so many people who she didn't actually know who will say, yeah, she always messaged me when I messaged her. You know, who will say, yeah, she always messaged me when I messaged her. You know, she wanted to help. And I think right, you know, right from day one, right from the first moment she was diagnosed, all she focused on was helping people. And I know, you know, a lot of focus has gone on the last seven weeks. And, you know, Dame Hood, the best-selling book,

The Clothing Line, you know,ame heard the best-selling book the clothing line you know it's been pretty remarkable but i think you know she would want me to say that actually she's been doing this for five and a half years and and i don't know i don't know if you heard steve to at the beginning of the program i mentioned actually working with rachel and and you know sitting alongside her and i remember when the podcast was starting up and a big part of who they were as women was being women you know talking how women do and you know actually putting on in their their view of what they needed to feel but better putting on a bit of makeup putting on something nice feeling good having their hair done being open you know actually that openness and speaking like that was

a very big part of them as women trying to help others wasn't it yeah that was a massive part of it and I think if you go back you know four or four and a bit years to when the podcast was launched you know this amazing community that we see on Instagram and on other social media channels now it just wasn't there and and you you know, they opened up the conversation to allow, you know, lots and lots of young people, you know, mostly young women, to share their stories of how they were living with cancer and not letting cancer define them,

you know, living full, energetic, vibrant lives while going through cancer. And, you know, that, like I said, that just wasn't there four and a half years ago. And they changed everything for so many people. Yeah, it was pretty remarkable. It was very special to watch. And, of course, you, a big part of it,

continued it, carried on that legacy. And they also wanted to make people laugh, didn't they? I mean, they just went there with details, which is what I also think women in particular are very good at. They are. I don't know what you would say to that. Yeah, I mean, that was it. You know, I was thinking this morning, like all the times we,

there were plenty of laughs, plenty of tears, you know, plenty of, I just remembered like one time, for some reason, this came into my head. Deb was having a rant about a campaign run by a cancer charity that she didn't agree with the way that it was done. She was having this big rant on the podcast. And she said, just because we've got cancer, it does not make me intelligent.

And then everybody creased up laughing. I was like, did you mean to say, yeah. Didn't mean to say that. But no, just laughs and tears. We went through everything, not just on the podcast, but in our friendship as well. In real life. Yeah, just a remarkable person.

Not an easy morning for you to talk, Steve, but I'm really grateful to have you on. Thank you so much. I know that it matters a lot for you to to share what you what you want to say about her this morning thank you so much Steve Bland there whose wife Rachel was was one of Deborah's co-hosts on You, Me and the Big C. Let me bring in Julia Bradbury now at this point and Julia good morning you've been generous enough to to talk to me to talk on this program and also you've made your own films. You're sharing your own experiences of living with breast cancer. What do you want to say this morning about that importance of sharing, really? Well, first of all, I think we have to say thank you to Deborah for continuing to campaign to raise awareness right up until her dying day. And thank you to her family for allowing her to do that as well

through those what must have been, you know, just deeply sad days. And I cried last night when I heard about Deborah's passing. And I'm very emotional today. And it's very sad as well. And thank you to Stephen for talking. For me, I don't know how she managed to do it with her children in her orbit, because that for me was the most devastating part of a cancer diagnosis, was the thought of leaving my children behind.

So that's why it's touched me so much, because I know that her children are going to miss her so, so much. I was just going to say, just while you maybe take a moment, because I can't even imagine how emotional this is for you and for those living with cancer. Or maybe they've just come through. I was thinking of Adele Roberts this morning, who we've also had on the programme, who's just said she's got the all clear. My fellow BBC radio host with bowel cancer. She's very moved as well.

But, you know, just even though we knew it was coming last night when I saw the news, it wasn't not easier because it wasn't any easier. It was so sad and it was still shocking, wasn't it? Yeah, completely, completely shocking. And I just want to say that it is so important to continue to spread awareness. I've got an email in front of me from somebody and I still get hundreds of emails. And this is a lady called Emma who said thank you for sharing your breast cancer story with your documentary it's down to you and your program that I made the decision to go to the doctors to get a swelling in my left breast checked out after mammograms

ultrasounds and biopsies it has been confirmed that I do have cancerous cells in my breasts and I wouldn't have gone to the doctor had I not watched your program I probably wouldn't have gone as soon as I did and in the space of five weeks I've been referred I've watched your program. I probably wouldn't have gone as soon as I did. And in the space of five weeks, I've been referred, I've had all my tests, I've had a CT scan and MRI, and I'm waiting for the results in the treatment plan. Thank you. I will always be grateful to you. That's why we continue to spread awareness. That's why everybody who has a platform and can share their story of cancer will continue to do it because we need to talk about cancer, we need to talk about health, we need to talk about checking ourselves and we need to talk about the profound impact

that a cancer diagnosis has on us and our families and all around us. I know it was hard to talk this morning, Julia, but I'm really grateful that you did. And the programme, just in case people don't know, is Breast Cancer and Me. It's still on ITV Hub online if people haven't seen it. And, you know i thought i said at the time i thought you were amazing to to share it the way that you did and it was incredibly powerful and incredibly moving and you know i hadn't seen anything like it before

so thank you for continuing to do that julia it's an absolute pleasure it's always a pleasure to talk to you and to the women's hour audience and yes everybody please please please take care of your health the best that in the best way that you can. Julia Bradbury. Well, on that, let's talk to the GP, Dr Ellie Cannon, because Ellie, good morning. One of the last parts of Deborah's statement from her family was focusing on getting people to check their poo, to actually keep going because it could save your life. And I wonder what you would say to that because of course the NHS and GPs at the moment there's an enormous amount of pressure on the system.

Ellie? There is absolutely and one of the things that Deborah was so keen on was that we broke the taboo of talking about poo of people being able to go to the doctor and feel comfortable to say I've seen blood it doesn't look normal I've got diarrhea I'm having an accident this type of thing and of course to go back because the chances are if you're a young woman with bowel symptoms the chances are you don't have bowel cancer but there will be unfortunately tragic cases of young women and men of course who do and the the whole sort of point of what Deborah did is to raise awareness that there is always that possibility and to go back and for doctors to listen. What do you do what do you say to those who feel perhaps they have been back and they're still not being listened to people find the bit that they find really frustrating with the gp and there'll be things that gps find very

frustrating i'm aware of that but the bit that people do find frustrating is if they have gone back again maybe they see another doctor yes it's meant to all be there in your notes but they don't feel that they can get referred easily or something can happen as a result of it. Are you saying perhaps people do need to advocate more for themselves? Certainly people do need to advocate more for themselves, particularly women. We know from the Women's Health Call for Evidence last year, there is a real problem, a systemic problem in the NHS of people listening to women. You know, that's what came out of the Ockendon Report, it's what came out of the Ockenden report, it's what came out of the Paterson inquiry. Women are not listened to. The abnormal for women is

often normalised. It is not normal for a young woman to have daily diarrhoea or blood in their poo. And therefore, that should be investigated. Now, you're right, GPs are under pressure, all healthcare professionals are under pressure. And one thing we're under pressure with is referring for investigations and referring to the hospital for appointments. But actually, particularly in the case of bowel cancer, even more so than the other cancers, actually, poo tests, having a stool sample taken to check for cancer, to check for blood, even to rule out other bowel diseases like celiac or Crohn's disease is actually quite straightforward. So a minimal test, having a poo test done really should be easy to access for everybody in the UK. Yeah, well, that's an important fact maybe to be armed with, I suppose, if you do feel you want to test.

And it's good to know that as well. GP there, Dr Ellie Cannon. Thank you very much indeed to you. Messages coming in. For instance, Gavin, who's written in to say on email, I wish my wife, Rachel, could have been able to listen to Dame Deborah James. Rachel died of bowel cancer 10 years ago. I'm so sorry.

Also at the age of 40. She left two lovely children behind my thoughts are very much with her husband and her children today and you're also coming in with many messages about sharing things i have me chronic fatigue syndrome diagnosed five years ago after glandular fever very similar to long covid i went from being a really active 28 year old to having to stop work and plan what days i wash my hair i I've benefited, I've really benefited from following people who have similar conditions, but who have adapted to use their limited energy in powerful ways. The writer Josie George, the dancer slash activist Kate Stanforth, the writer blogger Pippa Stacey. It's helped me

accept that my health and look at how I can use my very limited energy in the best possible way. I'm not quite ready to share myself, but I hope I will be one day. Listening to Woman's Hour helps me feel connected and in touch with the world when I'm off and stuck at home. So thank you, Harriet. Harriet, good morning. Thank you so much for listening. It's lovely to have your company and it's great to know that it is helpful to have the programme and feel connected to a whole other community, which is what this is and especially becomes so when you do share.

So thank you very much indeed. Now, the Culture and Sports Secretary Nadine Dorries met with sporting bodies yesterday to urge them to protect the integrity of women's sport, as she says, saying that elite and competitive women's sport must be reserved for people born of the female sex. That's a direct quote. Swimming's world governing body, FINA,

recently voted to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite events if they've gone through any part of the male puberty process. The Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, also contributed to this conversation back in April. You may remember he said that he did not believe transgender women should compete in female sporting events. Nadine Dorries urged the governing bodies to adopt the government's unequivocal view on transgender athletes competing in women's sports. Well, we did ask for Nadine Dorries to join me here on today's programme, or in fact any other sports minister.

But we were told by the government that no one was available. The BBC Sports News reporter Jane Dougal, I'm happy to say, is available though and has been across the story and joins me now. Good morning, Jane. Always available for you, Emma. Good morning. Very much hope so. Thank you to that. The Culture Secretary's meeting yesterday, a convening of these sporting bodies. What do we know? Well, this is something that we fully expected Nadine Dorries to say, of course. She wrote an article in a national newspaper saying as much at the weekend.

We understand she met with around 15 organisations yesterday representing football, cricket, rugby, tennis, athletics and several other sports, of course, and asked them to follow the lead of FINA. As you mentioned, the world sports, of course, and asked them to follow the lead of FINA. As you mentioned, the World Governing Body of Swimming, who announced a few weeks ago that they would ban trans women from female events if they'd gone through any stage of male puberty. Now, sporting governing bodies in this country have been fully expecting this because back in September last year, guidance published by the UK sports councils made it clear that it was not always possible to balance inclusion with fairness when sex can have an impact on sporting results. And this is something that has been crucial to this debate, isn't it? Balancing inclusion with fairness.

But looking at the Equality Act, because obviously Nadine Doris will have spoken about this to the sporting governing bodies, the Equality Act 2010 states that it is lawful to restrict the participation of transgender people from sporting competitions where physical strength, stamina or physique are important factors in deciding who wins. And it must be necessary to make sure that the competition is fair or the other competitors are safe. But it's such a contentious and difficult topic that sporting governing bodies have been backing off. And as Nadine Dorr said, ducking it. They can't do that anymore following FINA's decision. Because there's concern about whether this should just be if there are going to be, you know, some laws or rulings made, if it should be

just about elite sport or should it also be about grassroots sport? That's a big decision. Well, a lot of times these decisions filter down. So if there's a decision at the top, then it does tend to follow suit down to grassroots. However, it's very difficult at a grassroots level to monitor things like testosterone levels. At the moment, FINA, previous to their decision decision said that testosterone levels in a trans woman wanting to take part in women's categories had to be five nanomoles of testosterone per liter now to let you understand um a woman's average testosterone level is between 0.4 and 2.4 so five nanomoles per liter obviously is twice as as much. That's at elite level. So what is

it like at grassroots level? Because a man's natural occurring testosterone levels are between 10 and 30 nanomoles of testosterone per litre. So if you have a male-bodied person who's gone through male puberty, then taking part in events at grassroots level without any sort of testosterone being suppressed or any way to police that, then clearly there might be an issue of safety, especially if you're talking about sports like rugby, for example, or football. And there are concerns, it's being reported in some of the papers today, there are concerns by the sporting bodies of potential legal challenges as well yes so several sporting bodies we understand are nervous that trans athletes could take action against them if they're excluded from the category that they wish to

participate in the sporting bodies will make clear that there's no actual ban on trans athletes competing at elite level or grassroots level it's the category that they compete at, because clearly trans athletes want to compete in the category that they feel aligned to, their gender identity aligned to. But sporting governing bodies are being encouraged by Nadine Doris to allow them to compete in the categories that they were born into, the sex category that they were born into.

So if we're looking at it from a legal point of view, it's a laticious society. Safety is one of the primary issues that they will have to take into consideration. Now, a few years ago, World Rugby conducted a study which proved that a woman had a 30% greater chance of being seriously injured if tackled by a trans woman. So with the knowledge of those statistics, if, for example, the RFU were to allow trans women to compete against women and a woman was seriously injured, there was potential for that injured party to sue the RFU because they allowed trans women to compete with the knowledge of those statistics which were conducted in that study conducted by World Rugby. And another legal side of it, which we were referring to just before that, of course,

is the right of what trans women might feel to take part in sport and have their rights and equality reflected. Has there been discussion of creating a different category? So, yes, Fina talked about establishing an open category. Now, that's problematic, Emma. It's problematic for a number of reasons. Number one, it doesn't really solve any problems because primarily there are not enough

trans athletes to make that viable. Now, the FINA president, Hussein al-Mussalam, announced that he wanted this open category because he didn't want to have any sort of discrimination, that FINA would be the first international federation to have this, and that he was setting up a task force to establish how it would work but you know many trans athletes and trans activists say well wouldn't we have the farcical image of perhaps one athlete turning up for an event to run in a race or to start to swim in a pool and would there be medals for that person would this be a category permitted in the olympics and uh like said, it just doesn't solve any problems, certainly not in the short term, perhaps in the long term, because to play devil's advocate slightly,

I do remember people saying this about the Paralympics and what a successful event that is. Yes, and how that's also developed over the years, I suppose, as well, and as things do. Jane Dougal, BBC Sports News reporter, thank you very much for putting us in the picture on the latest on that and what's been said and certainly what hasn't been said, what hasn't been decided yet when it comes to sport and trans athletes.

We'll keep you up to date on that and very much hope the government do put somebody forward to talk to us soon. Now, two women are joining me now to talk about the power of music and music education because last week a new national plan for music education was published by the government called the power of music to change lives the ambition is for every pupil to have at least one hour of high quality music education a week. Veronica Wadley Baroness Fleet is the chair of the advisory panel that published the plan and Yolanda Brown contributed to it as a MOBO award

winning saxophonist and chair of Youth Music, the largest music education charity in the world. Welcome to you both. Yolanda, I'll come to you in just a moment. But Veronica, this has been a long awaited plan. What's the main goal for you with education of music in this country? Good morning, Emma. Great to join you. I think it's a really important moment for music education and I want to see the plan managing to actually make sure

that all children have a great music education. That is the aim. And I think they deserve it and I think we can do it. And where is it now in terms of what's not happening in terms of and then what should be happening? Well there is a lot of wonderful music happening in primary, secondary schools, in universities, in conservatoires and obviously much wider in the music sector but there's no doubt that certainly music teachers do feel unappreciated,

lacking in support from the head teachers, perhaps in some schools. We need to do more to support and help teachers, but we also need to make sure that parents understand that music is in the curriculum. It is a statutory subject. Every child in primary and secondary school for the first years of secondary school should have music education and it needs to be high quality. Yolanda, I know you also contributed to the report. Good morning.

Good morning. What would you say, you know, you might think you know the benefits, but just even thinking about it would be at least one hour of high quality music education a week. What do you think that could give to a child? I think, you know, what's great about the report is really showing the power of music. Music isn't just about learning the notes or learning the technique in an instrument. It brings people together, brings our young people together, makes them proud of their achievements, gives them

something to show off. But also there's emotional building, there's social building within all of those lessons and acts. And so to have that as a part of your education every single week is really important. And it then filters out into the rest of our young people's education. It helps with grades, with exams, with how they process their emotions. And after the years that we've had, never more has the power of music been needed. Yes, well, I mean, but on the reality of it, there will be many places where there's no access to musical instruments.

There's some severe shortages and issues around that. There is this commitment in this. If I just come back to you, Veronica, £25 million to buy 200,000 new instruments for schools, £79 million a year for the next three years to the Music Hubs programme to improve teaching. Veronica, is that actually enough in terms of how much instruments cost and access? I think this is going to make a substantial difference. I mean, there are schools that are doing wonderful music already. They do have instruments. They do find ways within their budgets to produce great music. I can give you many examples. A Green Dragon School, a primary school, for example, in Hounslow, has a fantastic tradition of music. inclusive music it is for children from all backgrounds it is not the preserve of the rich as some people suggest this is children from all backgrounds many of them with learning difficulties

and they do it yes but obviously 25 million pounds for musical instruments to to maintain and build the stocks is a significant sum of money it It is. But again, I suppose then there's the education side of it and encouraging children and making sure they have access to what to do with those instruments as well. I know, Yolanda, you've got a take on this, you know, with how parents should support children as well, especially those who are perhaps struggling and, you know, time poor themselves and might not actually have learned an instrument either. I think that's what I'm taking away from this the most is the idea of collaboration, coming together and partnership, which is really strong in this document. It's not just about

just the schools doing something or just the music hubs. Parents can be involved as well. As a musician myself and as a mum myself, I meet many people that say, oh, I'm not musical, there's nothing I can do. But actually just listening to your child come back from school and say what they've learned or demonstrate something to you is enough, you know, for the parents to be involved. If they see a spark or something else that their child can do, knowing that that support network is out there, they can go to their music hubs directly. They can go to their schools. And this plan really supports what happens then. How do we make sure that those partnerships and collaborations really support our child's music development and also perhaps your parents not putting you off it by telling you to practice or making it another chore I don't know if you could ever be accused of that is that is that something that's happened to you Yolanda

well I had a fantastic conversation with Sophia Lipspegster about this because uh um you know practice is is the is the bane but i think the main thing is to make it approachable make it fun uh and just really allow your child to show their best music making uh that they can don't necessarily make it sort of you have to practice now 10 minutes egg timers on the table make it fun and make them be able to explore music for themselves as well because youth voice and what they want to do is equally as important and i think i know veronica you've looked at this but yallanda again just to stay with you if i can what type of music is taught is also quite key isn't it you know which genres that children are exposed to as as a way to learn instruments what do you have to say about that yeah and i think that is the way forward now in terms of when we talk about

inclusion and we talk about diversity. We want to hear, number one, from our young people what they want to learn about, but also making sure that the curriculum is wide so they can tap into different areas of culture or of heritage, of history and genre, so that the music feels even more appetising, if you like. And then from there, you can broaden the taste of our young musicians. And Veronica, how will we know if this has worked? What will be the proof for you? Well, Yolanda is one of the great advocates,

and I'm sure she will help us all make it happen. I mean, there will be more music. And I do think it's incredibly important for the headteachers, for governors to read the plan and to understand not, we're not telling them to do something because they must do it, but I want them to want to do it because it is so great for children and it creates a wonderful atmosphere in school. I remember when I was at school, I was surrounded by music. I was a rubbish musician. I did learn to play the piano I did take my piano exams at the Royal College of Music but very soon when I was in the teenage years I became the

audience so not every child is going to be a brilliant musician but they can still enjoy it and they can still be an audience in the future that's what I really want to see happen and I think if I could just add as well, you know, always coming on and speaking about music education on these amazing platforms, thanks for giving us the space. But I do want to congratulate all of the music teachers, all of the professionals, all of the industry leaders that are so passionate about music education. And I hope that they will see that this plan really is to support them, bring a great ecosystem so that we can work together to bring the best in music education.

Yes, I mean, teachers, a lot of them feeling under the cosh, they would say at the moment. And getting the specialism in teaching as well is also tricky for schools and recruitment at the moment. So I'm sure that shout out will be greatly appreciated. Yolanda Brown, thank you to you. Veronica Wadley, Baroness Fleet, chair of that panel. Thank you to you as well for taking us through some of your hopes for that and what the ambitions are. We will check up

on that, I'm sure, at some point. And thank you to you today for your many contributions, your tributes to Dame Deborah James, and also why you have decided to share certain things in your life and the impact it's had. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry and I heartily recommend you listen to the BBC's history podcast, You're Dead to Me, because, well, one, you can join me in learning all about Frederick the Great of Prussia. Two, it takes you on a historical grand tour from naughty nuns who became stitching sisters

to a globe-trotting Maghrebi. And three, well, it's fun. And don't we all need a little bit of that at the moment? You can find it on BBC Sounds, don't you know? So subscribe to You're Dead to Me and have yourself a giggle as you learn.

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