Woman's Hour - Gillian Anderson, Nurse Bethany Hutchison, Gisèle Pelicot, Film-maker Elizabeth Sankey

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Yesterday, the closing arguments were made in the trial of Dominique Pelicot and 50 other men accused of raping Gisèle Pelicot - a case that has not only shocked France but far beyond that country's borders. To understand what impact the trial has had on women in France, Nuala speaks to Blandine Deverlanges, a feminist activist in the region where the trial is taking place who has been attending the trial of Dominique Pelicot. Bethany Hutchison is one of eight female nurses who are taking their NHS Trust to an employment tribunal for allowing a trans woman to use their changing facilities at work.  Bethany speaks to Nuala about why she feels she needed to bring this case, and how she hopes it will be resolved.The Emmy and Golden Globe award-winning actor Gillian Anderson has compiled a collection of women's sexual fantasies in her book Want. She tells Nuala why she wanted to work on this project, following her role as Dr Jean Milburn in Sex Education, and also responds to the recent Presidential election in the US. Filmmaker Elizabeth Sankey has long had an affinity with witches – both the fictional depictions we get in film and TV and the women themselves caught up in the Witch Trials of the Early Modern Period. But it was her experience of perinatal mental health issues following the birth of her son that really forged a connection for her between what she'd been experiencing and witches themselves. She's produced a new documentary to look at exactly that. Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, we have Gillian Anderson this hour to speak about sex, fantasies and elections. That is coming up. Also today, Elizabeth Sankey entered a mother and baby psychiatric unit after giving birth due to severe mental health issues that came postpartum. The deep friendships that she made while there helped her heal.

And Elizabeth likens them to a witch's coven. Well, it's all in her fascinating new film, Witches. She'll be here in studio with me. You'll also hear from Bethany Hutchinson. She is one of eight women, all nurses, who are taking their NHS trust to an employment tribunal for allowing a trans woman to use their changing facilities. And I want to hear your stories of long-distance relationships.

Maybe you heard Robin Malcolm on the programme yesterday. Well, she lives in New Zealand. Her partner, Peter Mullen, in Scotland. Now, that is a long distance relationship. And then I saw Colleen Rooney has been speaking. She is staying in Liverpool. I suppose getting out of I'm a celebrity, but generally in Liverpool with the kids, even though her partner Wayne is working in Plymouth. He's head coach for Plymouth Argyle. So not so far, but still long distance at the moment. And I want to know, have you done it?

Are you doing it? Why? What are the benefits? What are the downsides? Can it work? Can it work better than being in the same house? You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. If you prefer WhatsApp, we have a number for you there too. Message or voice note, it is 03700 100 444. 84844 instead, if you'd like text. Now, I want to turn to yesterday, the closing arguments that were made in the trial of Dominique Pellicot and 50 other men who are accused of raping Giselle Pellicot. This is a very shocking case. You might have heard details about it before,

but I also want to let you know now. It is a case really that has shocked the whole of France, but also has reverberations around the world. In court, Giselle Pellicot, who from the beginning has waived her right to anonymity, spelled out the devastation that her ex-husband's crimes wreaked on her life.

She went on to denounce the mass rape case of the 51 men as a trial of cowardice and said it is high time that France's macho patriarchal society, which trivialises rape, changes. Her ex-husband, Dominique Pellicicot has admitted recruiting dozens of men online to rape his wife while she was drugged and unconscious over the course of almost a decade at their home in Mazin. The trial started in September, is due to finish next month with a verdict in the second half of December. So we wanted to understand what impact this trial has had on women in France. Just before we came to air, I got to speak to Blondine Develange. She's a

feminist activist in the region where this trial is taking place and she has been attending every day to support Gisèle Pellicot. Standing inside the courthouse, I could see Blondine on my screen and I asked her to describe for us what

she could see. As you can see, there are a lot of women waiting in front of the courts, but we cannot go in because there are only 20 places for the public because there are so many medias that cannot come in with the public. So we have to wait hours long, you know. Here is a line.

They have been here for three hours. Three hours. Yes. And only 20 of them have gone in the court. So we are waiting right now. But only 20 of them

will be able to come in when there is a pause. And some of them won't come in at all. But they just wait and is it to support Giselle Pellico? Yes. There are many reasons

for people to come here as feminists. We are here to support Giselle Pellico and I've been here almost every day since the beginning of the trial with my friends. Every day, we are at least three, four, five feminists coming. And Giselle knows us now, right now.

And she looks for us when she comes. And she's because I think it gives her some strength, you know, to know that she's not alone. What does Giselle mean to you? She's a woman who has been almost destroyed. She was a victim of extreme violence, sexual violence, but, you know, she has been drugged and beaten and so on. But almost everyone thought that she would be, you know, a tiny thing in the court. And in fact, it's exactly the contrary. A few days after the beginning, it's like a resurrection.

She's strong. She's alive. She stands up on her legs and she tells the truth. And she allows us as women and as feminists to reappropriate our own history, the history of women against male violence. So it's a huge gift that she made us by claiming the trial to be public and the videos and all the evidences to be public and to be seen by everyone who wants to see them.

And she said yesterday, Giselle, that it is time for France's macho patriarchal society, which trivializes rape to change. Do you think this trial will do that? We hope so. Yes, because the trial is public. Everything is seen right now. So we cannot do as if we didn't see, we didn't know, and it didn't happen. It did

happen. And we have to see the truth in the eyes and change the society. We women want the society to change, so we ask, we demand men to change that. It's not a woman's problem,

it's a male violence problem, and this has to change that. It's not a woman's problem. It's a male violence problem. And this has to be changed. When you have been watching the trial unfold, what has struck you the most? Many things, of course. In the first days, I was really astonished by Giselle. The first day, it was the first Thursday, she was here

and during the day, she took more and more place. You know, she was here, she said what she had to say. And it was really astonishing. Astonishing, yes. I understand that she was taking up space.

Yes, yes. And when I came back to my home, something had changed. I couldn't see the world the same way. She was speaking about what she as a wife, had changed. I couldn't see the world the same way. She was speaking about what she as a wife, as a woman, was living and how her life definitely changed the 2nd of November 2020. And then after... After she realized what had happened to her.

Yes, it was the day where she went to the police and she knew what happened because she didn't know before. It was, yeah, it was really a huge change. And after, the days after, we saw the accusation of rape. As a feminist, for me, they're rapists. You know, when you rape a woman, you're a rapist. And there are all the evidence, you know, there is a video and many videos for each of them.

So they did rape Giselle Pellicot. Let me just reiterate that. And you say rapists, and that is allegations at the moment. This is the trial that is undergoing. There is no conviction or sentencing thus far. That is expected sentencing to happen on December 20th. And they were together, you know.

They are friends together. They were in jail together. And they act as if they knew from the beginning that they will be free after the trial. They are together. They make jokes. They shake their hands in the courts. They threaten us. For example, I was threatened by one of them in front of the court.

I'm going to write to mother in front of the media, in front of the lawyers. Somebody said one of the accused said that to you? Yes. Yes. And it was it was recorded. So, yeah. So what do you do with that, though, Blondine? Like I can see, obviously, anger and frustration in your voice that that happened. I can see and hear. But what does that do to you?

I mean, also, as a French woman living in this country, that you're seeing that playing out at the moment. It's really hard to say. You know, I hope that justice will be done, but I'm not sure as a woman. And as a feminist, I'm really angry. And I'm an activist and I make collage, banners and everything in the streets, and I make the thing change myself with my friends.

You know, during the night, we paint and glue on the walls sentences, for example, sentences said by the accused men, what they did. For example, it was my body, but not my brain. We heard that in the trial. So we made a collage with this sentence. So let me just explain that. That is things, that was what some of the men that are accused, or one of them, that was his defense,

that it was his body, not his brain, that did this act. On the banner, we wrote, a rape is a rape. What would justice be? They have to go to jail. For how long? Each, each, 20 years each, because the French law is 15 years for rape

and five more years for, because there were at least two men, sometimes more at the same time, and she was drugged. So there are two aggravating circumstances. So they should be jailed for 20 years, each of them. Two aggravating aspects to it, as you described there, Blondine. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. I think you gave us a window into what you're living through these days. Thank you so much. Blondine de Valange speaking to me from Avignon, from the courthouse there, and you can find links to help and support on the Women's Hour website if you have been affected by anything you heard

in that interview. Jeannie got in touch. She says, it's not what the women think that's important. It's the effect of this trial on what men think that is critical. I want to turn to Bethany Hutchinson. She is one of eight women, all nurses, who are taking their NHS trust to an employment tribunal for allowing a trans woman to use their changing

facilities at work. Bethany works at the Darlington Memorial Hospital in County Durham. And when I spoke to her, I asked her when she first became aware that a colleague who is trans was using the women's changing room. Yeah, so this kind of kicked off in July 2023. So without any sort of warning or consultation from senior management, we became aware of a male changing in the female changing room. And this has led to nurses having panic attacks before their shifts. It's led to international nurses wearing clothing underneath their uniform because obviously culturally they can't be exposed in the state of undress in front of any other male other than their husband.

And generally just a feeling of anxiety amongst many female members of staff, you know, looking over the shoulder, worried that this person is going to walk in and see them in a state of undress um you talk use the word male but what you mean is a trans woman colleague this this person self-identifies as female this person has had no um surgery does not take hormones um is having sexual intercourse with a female, as far as I'm aware. So I would say a male. And the person you are referring to would use she, her pronouns, as far as we know. Yeah. But you don't agree to using that? I don't agree to using that, no. And why? Because they're a're male they are acting like a male they have all their male parts in place and I believe that sex is a it's a biological fact

it's not interchangeable there's kind of two parts to that in a way Bethany if the person dressed more traditionally as a female for example would that make a difference? Not necessarily no. If this person had surgically transitioned would that be something you would accept when it comes to the changing room? I mean it's not for me to make these decisions actually you know personally I think that you shouldn't really allow anybody in with x y chromosomes because you know where do you draw the line but this is not for me to make the decision. But you are making the decision to take it to an employment tribunal for letting this person use those changing facilities at work so you are taking a stand making a decision. Yeah yeah I a stand, making a decision.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I am making a decision because the trust have put us at risk, not because of this particular person, may I add. I have never alleged that this person is a predator, but the policy that the trust have in place, it puts women at risk

because it states that men can self-identify as women and access the female changing room. All they have to do is go to a senior member of staff and say, look, I identify as a woman and that's it. They're allowed in. You talk about being at risk, if not from this person, but from that policy specifically. What is the risk? Harassment, rape, sexual assault, assault voyeurism you know those those types

of things what response have you heard from your trust they've been extremely unsupportive when we eventually had a meeting with HR because this rumbled on for a year where we were sort of dismissed um but HR told us that we needed to be more inclusive that we needed to broaden our mindset that we needed to compromise and we needed to be educated. And, you know, I'm dealing with nurses who have had, you know, sexual abuse as a child, nurses who have been in relationships that have been violent at the hands of males. And, you know, I would defy anyone to sit across from these nurses and say, you need to broaden your mindset. Wes Streeter, when we went to meet with him, we explained this to him. He said, you know, that's not a healthy perspective. That's not

healthy to say that to somebody. I agree. It's not healthy, but it's also extremely insensitive. It's appalling. So and Wes Street and the health secretary, just to put it in context, but have you spoken with the person in question at all who's at the centre of this that you object to their presence in your changing room? No, no. Have you tried to? No, I don't think that would be wise at the moment. What is the situation right now when it comes to the changing rooms? You mentioned some of your colleagues that are uncomfortable or do not want to use the original changing room as it stands.

So what's happening? We walked into work one day we were confronted with a poster on the female changing room door which I must state now has been removed and we're not sure who has removed it or who put it up there but there was a poster on the changing room door which stated that it was an inclusive changing room and that we were not to remove the sign and the same day we were told that we had to be moved to a tiny office that had been cleared out of all things. It was to be called the locker room. And when we walked in there, there were no lockers in there.

We had to put our belongings on the floor, which obviously is an infection control risk and a security risk. This room's way too small for the amount of nurses that need to use it. And it opens onto a a busy orthopedic corridor and is opposite a side room so patients can can look in and if you walk in and somebody's getting changed everybody in the corridor is going to see that person so it's completely inappropriate and I believe the trust think that they've done it to appease us but my argument is that that that changing room that locker room, it still falls under the same policy. There is not another policy in place.

So if a transgender individual for example came as a patient she will not be put on a single-sex women's ward that's correct yeah so the patient policy is different to the staff policy as you as a correct have explained it yeah do you know why that is well the the answer we got from HR because we did ask that question, is just that public law is different to employment law. That was the answer. You're taking the trust to Employment Tribunal. Your legal case has been funded by the Christian Legal Centre, which is part of the organisation Christian Concern. Why did you decide to take that route?

Yeah, so I'll just kind of rewind our story a little bit. So obviously we were all concerned. We didn't expect to ever have to deal with this sort of thing. And I think for me and for many people, when you're in a sort of state of not sure what to do with things in life, you turn to your family, don't you, for advice. And I'm unapologetically a Christian. My parents are unapologetically Christians.

And they advised me to go and contact Christian Concern. And I was extremely nervous about this. You know, I cautiously approached them just because I didn't know what their response would be. I didn't really know of Christian Concern before this. But what I would say is that they have been extremely supportive of not just me, but the other nurses who don't have a Christian background. Some of them don't have any faith at all. And this is not a Christian campaign. This is for all women. This is for women of different religions, different cultures, different backgrounds.

And that's what we're fighting for. But you will know, of course, as they cover the costs of your legal case, that they also represent, for example, individuals who want to challenge buffer zones outside abortion clinics or people who are fighting, being sacked for holding what they would call a biblical view on LGBT issues. Does it concern you at all

to align yourself in that way? No, it doesn't concern me. My fight is for women's safe spaces and that is the fight that we're on. There is no other involvement in anything else. Do you agree with their position on those other issues

as I described them? I don't think that's for me to answer right now, actually. How do your Christian beliefs, Bethany, come into this? Yeah, so I believe that sex is a biological fact and that it isn't interchangeable at all.

And is that a Christian belief? I think it's a Christian belief and also a scientific fact. Yes. Has there been, just as you were describing, I suppose, this upheaval that you've talked about with changing rooms. Has there been division within the nurses, within your colleagues on this issue? I'm just wondering what it's like for you on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, I think it was, originally it was quite hostile. I think that some nurses just kind of felt sorry for their friend and then realised that there was actually a bigger picture. I would like to point out that this isn't a campaign against this one person. I isn't a campaign against this one person.

I don't hold anything against this one person. Unfortunately, this person has been the catalyst and has raised awareness about something. And actually, I do feel like this policy has put this person at risk as well. And the trusts are responsible for that person also. But yes, originally, it did feel slightly hostile. But I think that the more that we talk about it, and the more that the nurses become aware, and I'm saying this as a minority of nurses, I'm not saying that the majority of the hospital are against us, actually, I think we have a vast amount of support from the nurses, male and female. But I think that as they become more aware of the policy and the loophole in it, they support us.

How do you view trans people's rights? Trans people have rights, yeah. Just like women have rights and men have rights, you know, but one particular group's rights can't trample somebody else's rights. And I'm not saying that trans people or self-ID people should be ostracised to a tiny cupboard like we have. I'm advocating for them to have similar facility that, you know, the same facilities as us, private facilities where they can get change, dignity and respect. And I do want to read from a spokesperson for County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust. They say the trust is committed to providing a safe, secure and respectful environment for all colleagues and patients operating within the law and adhering to national policies.

Additional alternative changing facilities have been put in place. These include a private individual lockable changing room. An office has been converted into a locker room for the storage of belongings. The Trust has processes in place for listening to and responding to concerns raised by any of our colleagues.

We take all concerns raised seriously and investigate them thoroughly. An internal investigation continues to take place while the legal proceedings also continue. Considering we were talking about risk here and, you know, the NHS is full of risk assessments. As soon as a patient hits the ward, they are risk assessed. You know, we do false risks. We get a wristband on them we assess their allergies all that sort of stuff the fact that a group of nurses raised a risk and it was sort of brushed off for a year I mean I think that speaks volumes doesn't it this is a case that people will have strong opinions on on both sides I think it's like a fault line perhaps of trans rights

women's rights how does it feel to be in the center of it do you feel you will get to a resolution that everybody can live with I'm hoping so certainly I'm hoping so yeah we we have provided a sort of draft policy for West Street and to take a look at because he requested that and I'm hoping that going forward this that will provide a solution that everybody's happy with and everybody's comfortable with and you know where people can change with dignity and I did mention previously that it was about advocating for a third changing space where it's of a similar ilk to the female and male changing space. Is that what you gave to Wes Streeting? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

What did he say? We don't know yet. It's under review at the moment, but hopefully going forward, he'll definitely take some guidance from it. That is Bethany Hutchinson, one of a group of nurses taking their NHS trust to the Employment Tribunal over the transitioning in the workplace policy.

And I should say we did approach the individual trans colleague referred to by bethany in that interview but we have not heard back you also heard bethany there mentioning west streeting the health secretary a spokesperson for the department of health and social care has said to us that the secretary of state met with five nurses from the darlington nursing union last month to hear about their concerns concerning single sex spaces in nhs hospitals the health secretary is clear that everybody deserves to feel safe and treat it with respect at their workplace 84844 if you want to get in touch many of you have about long

distance relationships let's hear them um at the point that my husband and i were organizing our wedding a job opportunity came up in the Netherlands. My fiancé supported my application and by the time our wedding day, it came to our wedding day, we broke it to our family and friends that a month after getting married, I'd be leaving the UK. I had a contract end date of two years and we spent the next two years travelling between the two countries and it was an amazing start to our marriage. We've been married 25 years and it is still a very fond memory in our hearts. Here is another. Your husband, partner's distance away from you is inversely proportional to his faithfulness.

Married for 25 years, but when he worked away, he couldn't handle the distance and felt abandoned by us that we didn't come along with him. For the second time, as with exam age children, he had affairs. I found out i would never ever advise even the strongest marriage doing long distance for long here's another i have never lived with he who is now my husband we met in october 97 and have been together ever since marrying two years ago when we we married, a work colleague asked David if we were going to live together.

His response? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And I was born in 1949. He was born in 1966. Keep them coming. 8-4. 8-4. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Right, from X-Files to X-Rated, Gillian Anderson needs very little introduction. The Emmy, Golden Globe and Screen Actors Guild award-winning actor has played so many roles. As varied as Margaret Thatcher thatcher in the crown remember that emily maitlis and scoop the fictional sex therapist dr jean milburn in sex education

and preparing for that particular role gillian read nancy friday's my secret garden that was a collection of women's fantasies and the book was published in 1973 but now as a tribute to that collection gillian has created her own book, Want. It's another collection of sexual fantasies submitted anonymously by women all over the world and curated by Gillian. She has even discreetly inserted her own sexual fantasy

among the pages. You have to try and figure out which one it is. She's not telling. But these fantasies range from one woman's deep-seated fantasy for a man to be indelibly and entirely ordinarily nice to her. I mean, it seems like something quite simple. To another wanting to have sex with the doorknob. What about that woman who wants to breastfeed the cashier at the supermarket?

But there is a lot in between. X-rated, explicit, no-holds-barred fantasies written down on paper. I got to speak to Gillian Anderson last week about her book and also about the recent election in her native America, which she described as a moment of reckoning for the Democrat Party. And I began by asking why she wanted to explore women's sexual fantasies. I understood why it was me that was asked based on my recent involvement in sex education and also my ongoing dialogue with Instagram followers, etc. I've always had quite a humorous and risque relationship with my Instagram feed.

And so it felt like the conversation was ongoing anyway. It made sense to me. And I was curious. I was curious about what we would end up learning in the process. And I thought, you know, I get why it should be me who does this. It's so interesting. A couple of words there, curious, which I think there's lots of curiosity in some of the stories that people submitted. But you weren't at all apprehensive about taking on that mantle and all that goes with it? No, I mean, on the one hand,

I feel very separate from it. I mean, it's very much, you know, obviously I've been involved with the book for a long time. It's absolutely a group effort. It doesn't feel like my book. It feels like the book belongs to every woman who submitted, every woman who, who, you know, reads it and get something from everyone at Bloomsbury who helped put it together. And also, you know, I'm not an expert. It's not my day job. I don't... Just play one on TV. I just, yeah. But also, you know,

I'm using my platform to continue a very important, I think, conversation. You know, they were submitted anonymously. And I have to tell people, just at the get-go, I mean, some of the fantasies

are wild, right? We're not talking about tame, vanilla type stories. Just for people that haven't looked at it yet. It's all there. Yeah. Through the various chapters. You guide us through it all.

And the women submitted these anonymously. How did that work? Because I was just thinking nobody really, well, not nobody, but many people might not want that fantasy getting out into the public domain, which we can talk about the why of that too. Yeah. I mean, it was very important to me and became very important to Bloomsbury that we did whatever we could to create a portal that letters could be submitted into that would be completely protected. Every letter was given a number. It wasn't connected. You know, they had a good formula for receiving them and keeping them safe. And, you know, we did receive about 8,000 started letters.

So there were a good many. I think we only ended up with around a thousand. So something in there either gave women cold feet, maybe because of the fact that they were suddenly realizing their work out, you know, could they trust this or sending it into the ether or what if? I don't know. But it was extraordinary, the amount of honesty, openness, rawness. Because I was thinking, even typing it, and I know you've spoken about this before, the difficulty about putting those words down on the page

when it comes to a fantasy. My own. Your own, exactly. Which people may have heard that there is one of yours in the book. We don't know where. But that you're kind of, I know it's a fantasy, but you're kind of making it real by putting it down on the page, by putting those words down there. What do you think it is that stops people? Well, I mean, obviously, the joy of fantasy is that it exists in our imagination and it's between our you know

between our ears and and nobody knows until we reveal it and there is something implicit in fantasy being exactly that and when you expose it it does it not become uh you know something else in a way it takes on a life of its own that that may make it less sexy or may make it less of interest anymore or maybe or whatever it's it's it's malleable but i do think that from what i've heard the process of putting it down and letting it go and sending it out into the ether, you know, asked a level of fearlessness and courage and trust that was invigorating. But also, even though they remained anonymous, they felt seen and heard by doing that action and women I'm hearing who are reading the book um are feeling seen and heard by identifying and reading other fantasies of women thinking you know I'm not the only one who feels this I've never talked about it with anybody but I don't I feel less shame or I

I don't you know are feeling um empowered and um they're really getting a kick out of the fact that they're recognising themselves on the pages. Getting a kick is important if we're talking about sexual fantasies as well. I mean, some of the fantasies belie what the writers say is their outer appearance. And there's lots of food for thought with that too. Kind of funny to imagine as well. Like there is humour there, I feel, like regular women doing the weekly shop, but instead having these wild sexual fantasies in her head, for example,

with one woman as she stands in line at the checkout. What did you find most surprising about the stories that came into you? Most surprising was the degree to which shame is still such a huge part of fantasies and women's lives, whether they are sharing bits about not being able to fully embrace sex because of their low self-esteem, because of their size or because of a disability or whatever, or whether it's shame because of, you know, coming from a religious childhood or whether it's shame because of a culture that they've been brought up in or shame because they

have a partner who doesn't love them for who they are or want to have sex with or whatever. There's so much shame. And given the fact that we are in 2024 and we see sex everywhere, we see it on our screens in a way that is sometimes incredibly shocking, including sex education, you know, and the the multi i think now trillion dollar porn industry i would have thought that it would be so front and center that somehow it would be less that there would be there would be less hang-ups or less um that it would be easier to talk about or to ask for and to ask for what one wants in bed. And apparently that's not the case. You know, women write in this book and we've had lots of conversations with women, could not dream of having the conversations with their partner for whatever reason.

Yeah, that did come up quite a bit. And I was wondering, I mean, I know you say you're not a sex therapist as a professional, but reading these stories, is there any way for women, do you think, to broach these conversations? Particularly if it was a number that were in long-term relationships and it kind of felt like that their partner didn't know them intimately in that way yeah i mean one thing is by you know coming with this book and saying i just bought this book would you care to read it with me or can we read each other chapters people have told me that they've been reading chapters with their partner or um because obviously there are a lot of fantasies in here that you can't reenact. You're not going to reenact them.

But just the talking, there's a revelation. There's a lot of women reveal themselves in some way, whether it's to with the idea that you're going to, you know, end up in bed or not just getting to talk about things that are this intimate and opening up that kind of conversations to take some of the taboo. Yeah, because you talk about shame, which is part of the taboo. It comes into so many aspects, I feel, of some of the topics we talk about on Women's Hour. But the other I was thinking while reading your book is about the vulnerability aspect and to be that intimate and share a fantasy, for example, being vulnerable can be something very different for a woman than it is for a man. And I suppose the past experiences that they've had have been vulnerable as well. I think that might be another aspect that women have to overcome. Yes, absolutely. There's another part, which is, you know, that it does, it is a vulnerable place to put yourself in to ask for what it is that you want, period. So if you go to your partner and say, the way you have been doing this, actually, I'm not very comfortable with. Can we work on how you might do it you know one might assume that uh the partner will be offended or

feel like they're being criticized or just even the nature of that conversation is awkward um and so it's better not to have it a lot of women feel that they um that they're that they don't want to waste their partner's time the fact that they're even spending time at all on your pleasure is something that has to be, you know, if there is any, is precious and you might as well take what you can get and to stop it in any moment, to change it or to alter it or have a conversation about how it could be different.

So it's better just to take care of yourself in your own space, in your own time where you can take your time or whatever. Yes, those are vulnerable conversations. You do have to place yourself in a degree of vulnerability and exposing yourself. And I think in general, women struggle to do that. Because I took parts of it almost slightly melancholic. Some of them were just hilarious

and fun or wild, as I mentioned. Others, slightly melancholic that they weren't able to ask for very simple things, really, in their lives, like to be adored. It doesn't sound like that big an ask, you know, in a marriage, for example.

But lots of, I don't know, lots of varying experiences and kind of food for thought as I read it. I do want to ask you about the States as well, actually, because we're just over the American election. Actually, coming back on the plane, I was reading your book on my computer. I was so bashful in case anybody sitting beside me was looking over my shoulder and reading. But coming from the election, you've spoken before, you are an American, about concerns for women in the States. It kind of turned out that abortion was not the deciding issue that many thought it might be. I'm just curious for your thoughts a week on. It's completely like many people flummoxed and

i felt like when i was promoting this book in the run-up to the election there was one frame of thinking and frame of talking around it and after the election i literally almost felt in the states that half the things i felt like I couldn't say, I didn't know. It's almost like I didn't even know if this is where we've ended up when I thought it was going to be here. Where do you even begin? And, you know, it turns out we just didn't have enough momentum. And what does that say? And so, therefore, what can you say?

Where do we start from here? It's an interesting one because I'm just looking at the figures and I think it is 75 million that voted for Donald Trump, 72 million for Kamala Harris. It's still a huge turnout and it's really it shows the division in the country as opposed to perhaps too much one way or another. But I do feel that word momentum is interesting because I remember eight years ago, there was such a pushback against Donald Trump, you know, the pussy hat marches, all that. I don't feel that or see that this time. How do you understand that? I mean, right now it feels like shock.

You know, it feels like absolute shock. I think that we thought that more of us were going to show up for her. It's particularly white women that didn't vote for Kamala Harris. Like where the difference is, that that made the difference. Yeah. And I don't know what the answer is right now. I don't know what that means. I don't know what the answer is right now. I don't know what that means. I don't know.

I keep listening to podcasts to try and understand what people are thinking about. And I do think that it's a moment of reckoning, you know, just in terms of the degree to which the Democratic Party has pushed people too much in a certain direction. And how things need to be framed around, reframed around woke culture. And I think there's a lot of things that need to be learned from this moment. It's interesting. When I was reading your book

and I was thinking, I think you would like girls, young women to learn more about pleasure at an earlier age but putting that into the context of a donald trump's america and so many states kind of rolling back um various um curriculum when it comes to sex education etc i guess that's probably not going to happen in the short term well no it's i mean i think that's what i'm that that's what I'm saying is because, you know, we thought that this new world was going to be starting from a particular place. And now it feels like the floor has dropped out. So there's no talking about pleasure, actually.

We have to get back to starting from scratch, It feels like in talking about basic women's rights and around their bodily autonomy. And so everything almost feels trivial on top of that, I think. It almost feels like how can you talk about pleasure when you can't even, you know, when you're fighting for to be able to choose whether or not you can make a choice for your own body. And so it has really thrown me because it was only a couple of weeks ago that I was doing, you know, the press for the book. And I'm...

You feel you're in a different world. It feels like I'm in a different world. That was Gillian Anderson, who was with me. I spoke to her last week. Her book Want is out now. Interesting, she talked about education. The Department of Education is expected to change under Donald Trump.

We did see this morning that he picked the former WWE, that's the World Wrestling Enterprise, executive Linda McMahon for Education Secretary. So many people will be watching that. Thanks to Gillian. Lots of your messages coming in. We talked about long distance relationships. Here are some.

Roly said, I returned from Vietnam this morning after two and a half weeks with my wife who left the UK last year after 18 years for her COVID was the last straw. I visited twice this year and aim for three next year. It is hard,

but the light is back on in her eyes. Here is Fran, the Isle of Anglesey. My partner is in the military, so we used to find ourselves living for the weekend and travelling across the country every Friday afternoon and back again on Sunday.

It was very difficult. We now live together on camp, military housing, and it's made the most positive impact on not only our relationship, but also on our friendships, mental health and outlook on lives. We don't have to live out of a suitcase anymore

and can share the small things in life together like a midweek dinner or an after work walk rather than trying to cram everything into our two days together. Keep them coming. 84844. It's definitely touched nerve this morning, a lot of you

getting in touch. Thank you for that. I want to speak about witches next. Being a bit of a theme for us on Women's Hour this week, we have the Oscar winner Michelle Yeoh on to discuss her part in the new film Wicked. If you missed that interview, it was Monday's show, the 18th of November. And today we

have filmmaker Elizabeth Sankey, who has thought deeply also about witches, both the fictional depictions that we get in film and TV, but also the women themselves that were caught up in the witch trials of the early modern period. But it was Elizabeth's experience of mental health issues following the birth of her son that really forged a connection for her between what she had been experiencing and also how she saw friendship somewhat like a witch's coven. She joins me now to discuss her documentary. It's entitled Witches and it looks at all this. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure. I really

enjoyed your film. Let's talk first about what people see on the screen. I was thinking I was watching. I was like, how much editing has gone into that? Because there's splicing of so many snippets and footage of film and TV depicting women through the ages. There's been, yeah, that took a very long time. I was saying to you earlier that I think I set aside about eight months to edit and then actually I had to do it in about six weeks. It was a very, very intense edit period. But I don't know, I think because it was my own story and I had spent years watching these films by that point and talking to lots of different people about their experiences,

it kind of flowed quite naturally. And just to give people an idea, there's Bewitched, I see. There's Girl Interrupted, old Hitchcock films. There's so many, I suppose, depictions in media that are around us. But to see them all moment by moment spliced together as stories of you and women that you have met all come together in your documentary, it's really quite something. You kind of realise where women are sometimes positioned in hospitals or psychiatric units. Yeah, absolutely. And that was really fascinating for me. There's a film in the, that I use a clip

from called The Snake Pit, which was released in 1948, it's Olivia de Havilland. And it's about a woman who's in a psychiatric ward. And I was just stunned by the fact that it's almost 80 years since that film came out. And her experience of being in that ward was so similar to mine and the other women in the mother and baby unit where I was with my son and you kind of realize that so little has changed I think that was what was so interesting for me as well about using the clips of these women is they're quite often uh presented as bad as as sort of scary figures very scary deranged figures having to be held back from society and regular life. Because let's talk about you. You had your baby and then pretty soon after

things began to change. Yeah, absolutely. I would say within a few days, I started to realise that something was wrong and was at A&E and was saying, I don't think there's, I think. What was it though? You felt strange? I remember my husband and I talk about this. I remember saying to him, like, I feel like something really bad has happened, but I can't work out what it was. It was just this feeling of dread and yeah, anxiety. And I just, I hadn't slept during the labor, which is very common for so many people when they give birth. So I was very sleep deprived, but it was just this feeling of fight or flight, but it becoming incredibly intense. And just then it sort of just started deteriorating as these illnesses often do.

They can deteriorate incredibly quickly. And it deteriorated into kind of intrusive thoughts and even more lack of sleep, suicidal ideation. I couldn't, I literally couldn't eat, like just very, very intense. And your baby at this time? My baby? Well, he was, I mean, he was great. He was lovely. He was, I mean, he was only a few weeks old. But I'm just thinking about you having to care for him or maybe your partner was there at that time? My husband was having to do a lot more of the childcare. You know, my poor husband, Jeremy, he was trying to look after me at the same time as dealing with this thing of

being a new father. And I remember that he was writing labels of what everything was in the house and putting these things and then would kind of bring me downstairs and say, right, this is how we do this. And then we're going to put the nappy in this bin and then you have and just trying to keep it all together but I mean my feelings about my son a lot of women have very complicated feelings about their children after giving birth regardless of whether or not they've had mental health issues but I always felt very deeply attached to my son that wasn't the issue it was much more for me about yeah about this very very strong anxiety. But it did deteriorate so much that you were admitted to a psychiatric ward about a month after the birth of your son to a

mother and baby unit tell us about that. Well that was a very terrifying thing and again it was something that I was sort of pushing for I think everyone around me was scared was really scared I'd never had any sort of experience like this before. But actually going into the mother and baby unit was a really incredible experience. It's as scary as you would imagine. You cannot believe that this is happening to you. But at the same time, I had my son with me every day on the ward. And the care, the very specialist care that you receive in those units is absolutely fantastic.

And I think there's so much reticence about going into them because people worry about their children being taken away. But actually, that's the last thing that people want to happen. And I think we think of them sometimes perhaps in the way they've been portrayed on film, in the way that you have in your documentary, the fictional. But then you talk about really what happened. And also these incredible women that you met, let's call it the witch's coven as you do a little bit. Tell me about that, because I'm thinking you're in severe mental health distress. You do have your baby. You are being watched over, obviously, very closely. But how do those friendships form? Well I think at the beginning at least on the ward everyone's sort of keeping to themselves and also you have a

dissociation I think in that environment where you kind of think gosh all these women are crazy but you forget that you're also crazy and then gradually we just started kind of spending more and more time with each other. And as you get better, you're able to sort of forge more friendships. And we would really look out for each other and care for each other. And I, you know, I'm still in contact with so many women from the ward, and also the women from the support group Motherly Love that I was part of. And they were instrumental in sort of helping me get the care that I needed. But I did really feel throughout that experience, while there were so many wonderful men too who helped,

but actually it was mostly women who were sort of stepping in and saying, I can see that something's happening to you. This is what you need to do. Or just being there for me in this very sort of maternal way. And there was a WhatsApp group that helped you get to that point, to get to a psychiatric unit, and then more women within that that helped you heal. But this fascination with witches and how you're drawing these parallels, do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about that? Yeah, I think I've always loved witches.

I think witches occupy a very interesting space in our society where they are, I think, used by the patriarchy as a way of saying, this is how women shouldn't be. This is a sort of warning. But I think actually, for a lot of women, they're very appealing and almost aspirational. And that's something that I have definitely felt throughout my life. I've always really loved witches, but I used to have a lot more affinity with the good witches like Samantha from Bewitched. And I think when I was ill, I really had this feeling that there was something evil about me, which I now realized and have discovered is very common for men when they're suffering from these illnesses.

And that there was a sort of a bad side to me. And I really didn't like that. I really didn't like that side of me. And it was after I left the ward, I was thinking about witches again. And my therapist actually said to me, you know, you need to embrace that darkness you need to find a way to sort of

make peace with it and I was still I started making this film when I'd been out of the ward for two months so I like to say this is a film made by a mad woman so I can't really remember why witches were so important to me but it kind of has carried through

and I'm glad I made that choice What was your diagnosis? Postpartum depression? Severe postpartum anxiety and depression. Because some of the women in it as well had psychosis, which is another level. And, you know, I think the film really shows us what they go through. I was also struck by some of them saying, you know, there's nothing worse that can be said to you than you are not a good mother. And I was wondering, is that worse than you are not a good mother. And I was wondering, is that worse than you are not a good person? I think that, and this is something I have discovered from my research into historical

witch trials in Europe, that even in the 1640s, women were saying, I think I might be a witch because I'm not a good wife. I'm not a good mother. I'm not a good neighbor. I'm not a good daughter. I'm not a good friend. And they were comparing themselves to this idealistic view of what a woman should be. A nurturer, really. Yes. But also, regardless of whether or not they were mothers, just this feeling of shame and stigma and guilt about them not performing in the way that they felt like they were expected to perform. And I think that that is something that has just continued. And that puritanical view has remained.

It's just been put in a different dress. And so I do think that for women, like the idea of being good is so part of our sort of female psyche. And if I could do anything, I would just take that away because I think that would solve a lot of problems. I saw in your film that you will be on medication for the rest of your life as I understand I just wanted to ask how are you doing and how you adapt to that reality as well because you were somebody who did not have mental health issues before the birth. Yeah I mean I think I had looking back I think I probably did I think I had undiagnosed anxiety and I now sort of can can recognize that. And medication for me has worked really well.

And I I think I benefit so much from it. A lot of women, though, who have had some illnesses to mine are not on medication anymore. They take it for a period of time, then they come off it. But I'm like clinging to mine because I think it's great. But, yeah, it was it was a strange thing. It was very strange. But I think that, again, was part of the process. That's why I made the film was to sort of find a way to embrace it and to feel empowered by it, as opposed to feeling like there was something wrong with me.

So I like embracing the idea that I am a witch, that there's this darkness and this mysticalness and this strange madness. I like talking about my madness because I think that is something that I have found really empowering. So yeah, I have no reservations and I love talking about medication. So yeah, it's something I'm very comfortable with. Well, I'm glad you are well now and with your family as well.

Just before I let you go, because you went through that with your son, it's a very personal question coming up. Did it stop you thinking about having a second child? That is a very personal question. You don't have to answer it. No, it's something I think people are really interested in. And I'm always really happy to answer it because no, it would never have stopped me having a second child. Elizabeth Sankey. Her documentary is which I found it really compelling, put a spell on me.

It's available on MUBI from Friday the 22nd of November. And of course, if you've been affected by anything we've spoken about in this discussion, there are support links on our website. Anita is with Katrina Johnson-Thompson

tomorrow, double world and Commonwealth hepatolone champion. And she'll be talking about her new memoir, Unbroken. Don't miss it. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. In 1984, an IRA bomb planted under a bath in Brighton's Grand Hotel came close to killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet. It was the biggest direct assault

on a British government since the gunpowder plot. From BBC Radio 4, I'm Glenn Patterson. And in The Brighton Bomb, I tell the story of the deadly attack, unravelling the threads that brought all involved, often by heartbreaking chance, to that place and time, 2.54am on the morning of the 12th of October. And I reveal how the police only just averted a follow-up bombing campaign aimed at England's beaches. To hear the Brighton bomb and many other great history documentaries, search for the History Podcast on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.