Woman's Hour - Gina Yashere; Afghanistan; WAGs; Helen Epega

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

British comic Gina Yashere has made it big on both sides of the Atlantic. A veteran of the UK comedy scene, she's also had huge success in the US. Now she's just released her first book, a memoir called 'Cack-Handed' in which she writes about growing up as a child of Nigerian immigrants in working-class London, and how this unique background helped her to make it in Hollywood. The Prime Minister confirmed yesterday the end of Britain's mission in Afghanistan. It follows the decision by US President Joe Biden to withdraw US troops by September 11th. But what lies ahead for women? And what's changed for them since foreign troops entered the country in late 2001? Krupa speaks to Mahjooba Nowrouzi from the BBC Afghan Service and Dr Weeda Mehran, a lecturer in Terrorism and Conflict at the University of Exeter.As England reach the finals of Euro 2020, we look at the story behind the term 'WAGs', or Wives and Girlfriends. There are some easily recognisable names on that list from Victoria Beckham, Cheryl Cole and Coleen Rooney. But how did it all start, and should the term be seen as insulting or out of date? Sam Kimberley is the author of The Wag Wars: The Glamorous Story of Footballers Wives', and Lizzie Cundy is a former "WAG", and now a radio and TV presenter.Helen Epega is the multi-talented Nigerian-British rapper turned performance artist. She is the founder and lead singer of The Venus Bushfires, behind the world's first opera written in Pidgin English – Song Queen, and she has written music for Christian Dior, PlayStation and Disney. She joins Krupa to discuss her latest work, ‘Sounds of Us: A Sound Art Snapshot - Life, Love, Fear, Hope & Protest In The Time Of Pandemic Lockdown’. Presented by Krupa Padhy Produce by Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Krupal Bhatti with Friday's Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4. Hello, welcome to the programme. Good to have your company on this Friday. And for many across the country, it is no ordinary Friday, is it? I won't need to tell you, but it is the Friday before England's men's football team play their first major tournament final since 1966. And that is happening on Sunday against Italy.

But we, over the next hour, are talking about the women behind those men, the wives and the girlfriends, often known simply as the wags. It's not a term that sits comfortably with everyone and you may feel it's one that isn't relevant anymore or you might think we shouldn't be reading too much into it. It's simply an acronym. Do send us your take. We're going to talk about how the identities and perceptions have changed of the partners of high profile sportsmen over the years since the days of the likes of Victoria Beckham and Cheryl Cole. And looking ahead to Sunday's big game at Wembley, how will you be preparing? Maybe you're having to get out of something you already had in the diary that might be work too.

Maybe you're too terrified to watch or maybe you won't be watching at all and have made other plans. Let us know by texting WOMENSHOUR on 84844 or catch us on social media. It's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR or you can email us through our website. Also standing by to speak to us in a moment is the comedian Gina Yashiri, here to tell us about her work in the US, her new memoir and her Nigerian upbringing here in the UK. And on the subject of Nigerian roots, we'll be speaking to the artist Helena Epega with us to talk us through her latest work,

which captures the sounds of living through the pandemic in London and Lagos. And it's been a turbulent week in Afghanistan as foreign troops, and that includes British troops, leave the nation after 20 years. With the Taliban encroaching on an increasing number of territories, it is a worrying time for people there. As our chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette, said this morning, I can feel the mood darkening. So we'll be reflecting on the situation for women inside the country.

But first, the British comic Gina Yashiri has made it big on both sides of the Atlantic. A veteran of the UK comedy scene, she's also had huge success in the US, appearing on The Tonight Show, having three different comedy specials, streaming on Netflix, and is now the star of the hit US sitcom

Bob Hart's Abishola, which she co-created. And now she's released her first book, a memoir called Cack Handed. And in it, Gina writes about growing up as a child of Nigerian immigrants in working class London and how this unique background helped her to make it in Bollywood. Here's a clip of Gina performing live at the Apollo here in London. It's an immigrant mentality when you have kids in a different country. You're a lot more ambitious for your kids. You want your kids to do well.

Because my mum was super ambitious for us. Super ambitious. Like, in an African family, any Africans in? Any Africans? That's just for us white people, not you. Just for us. African family, you've got four choices of career. Doctor, lawyer, engineer,

disgrace to the family. My mum picked all our jobs before we were born. When my mum was pregnant with me, someone went up to her and went, what are you having? She's like, I'm having a doctor. Gina, I'm laughing, you're laughing. I've heard this before, but it's just timeless.

Well, first of all, thank you for waking up for us. Or did you stay up for us? I'm not sure which one it is. I stayed up. It's like two in the morning out here in Los Angeles and I'm back in pre-production. I'll be right back in the writer's room writing my show in about seven hours. So I did this for you.

Thank you. Thank you for staying up for us. We're going to get into the details of your book in a moment, but it feels timely having just introduced you to mention, as you have in your book, that you've actually tweaked your name for the benefit of folk like me, maybe, who might not be able to say your name as it was meant to be as your parents named you and that surprised me considering how much identity features as a theme in your work just tell us about that well no my last name is Yashere and that's how it's pronounced but it's spelt I-Y-A-S-H-E-R-E so there's an I in front of it but the I I is silent almost. It's like Yashere.

And when I first started out doing comedy, I spell it the correct way. And people see the I and they kept calling me Gina Aisha. And it dropped me nuts. So a few weeks into the comedy, I was like, I'm dropping the I so people get to pronounce it. And they're still not pronouncing it right. You didn't pronounce my name right.

Oh no, let me try it again. Yashere. It's Yashere. Yashere. Have I try it again. Yashere. It's Yashere. Yashere. Have I got it now? Yashere. I'm going to practice that. I'm going to get it right. What was the English pronunciation?

It's so important. It is so important. Yashere. Yashere. And it's really, really important. So I'm glad we clarified that. On to your book now. You've been on the comedy scene for years.

You've written Netflix specials, TV shows. What made you turn to writing writing this memoir you know what it it was uh not uh it wasn't deliberate um on instagram uh i have quite a good following and i i follow this hashtag tbt throwback thursdays where you post um an old picture and you tell the story behind the picture and i was doing that and people were like oh my gosh these stories are so interesting so good didn't know this about you where you post an old picture and you tell the story behind the picture. And I was doing that. And people were like, oh, my gosh, these stories are so interesting, so good. Didn't know this about you.

Didn't know what you'd gone through before you got into comedy. You should write a book. You should write a book. So I just started saving those posts. And at one point, an agent contacted me and a publisher contacted me around the same time. This is how the universe works. And they were like, do you want to write a book? And I was like, are you paying like are you paying me yes okay I'll write a book and that's basically how it came about. And what is beautiful is that you you write as you speak almost so reading it I feel like we

are having a chat just like we are now. Yeah I wrote it myself no ghostwriter I wanted to get a ghostwriter because I was doing the tv show and I didn't think I had enough time to write it. But it didn't work out. And I'm glad it didn't because, you know, I didn't know if I could write a book and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of it. And it's my voice. The book is authentically me. I also do the audio narration for it. So there's absolutely no way that this book is not me. And the stories are all 100% true. and it's authentic. So I'm happy with it. It's 100% Gina. It's called Cat Candy. That means left-handed, clumsy and awkward apparently.

Does that represent the life track that your life has taken? Yeah, it's kind of a metaphor. I'm left-handed and from an African family, African, Asian, Middle Eastern, the left hand is the cat, the cack hand. I get it. I'm a left hander too. Cack is another word for blue. That's the hand that's used to wipe your bottom after you go to the toilet. Absolutely.

So if my mother walked into the kitchen and I was cooking with my left hand, that food went in the trash and I got slapped around the head and we started again. Oh, Gina, I understand. I too was made to eat with my right hand because you cannot eat with your left hand. I was tired. Exactly. And even to this day as a grown woman I still do certain things with my right hand because it was, and I was ambidextrous for a while because my mother made me write with my right hand for hours. So that's part of the reason why the book

is called Cat Candid and also it's a metaphor for the journey that my life has taken. I am awkward and clumsy. They say that left handers are awkward and clumsy. I don't think think it's true I think it's because we live in a right-handed world if I'm next to you in a bar and you're gesticulating with your left your your my left hand and you put your your drink on your right hand side because you're right-handed I'm gonna knock over your drink not because I'm clumsy it's because the world is right-handed but also the book is a metaphor for the journey that my life has taken that all the obstacles I've had to circumvent the way my career has sort of taken turns and stuff

and so that's that's what the title means. You mentioned your mum there and lots of people of colour might say that they've grown up with much stricter parents than their white counterparts but you say no one was as bad as your mum who who I have to say, I feel like I've gotten to know very well having read your book. Tell us about that. Yeah, my mum was super strict, but obsessively strict. I don't know whether it came from fear because she ended up in England in the 60s on her own without her husband, with all these young kids. And I think it was a fear of something happening to us. And England in the 70s was not a

fun place we routinely got chased and spat on by skinheads so my mum was super super protective of us but she was over the top you know the joke that I do about having a scrapbook of bus and train crashes and bringing it out whenever we wanted to go anywhere and go you see these children these children are dead you know what they're dead because they went on a school trip and now they are dead that's why you're going to stay at home with me. 100% true story. She used to cut newspaper clips, clippings of accidents

and clip them in this book. And so whenever we asked to go anywhere, she'd bring it out. So I don't think anybody else's parents ever did that. My mother was obsessively crazy overprotective. So I couldn't wait to escape. And when I did did I did everything that wasn't you know I bungee jumped I jumped out of planes I rode motorbikes I scuba dived even

though I couldn't swim I did all the things that I felt like had been suppressed you know within me as soon as I left home. But there are some pretty serious themes that you bring out in your book about for example how your stepdad treated you brothers, your attempt to self-harm, which really stood out for me. Did humour, comedy, was that a way for you to process some of these difficulties that you felt growing up? Well, I used comedy as a tool to avoid confrontation as a kid, as an African kid, a kid of African immigrants in the 70s and 80s.

We weren't the cool kids that we are now. We didn't have Wizkid and David Owen, all these super Nigerian celebrities killing it. You know, as a kid, it wasn't cool to be African. So I got teased a lot at school. I got teased and to avoid being bullied, I used to fight all the time. I was physically aggressive to stop myself from being bullied.

And then later on, I realised, oh, if I could use comedy and be funny and be the class clown that kind of diverted the attention, the physical aggression that I received in the bullying, I diverted that. And instead of fighting people, I made them laugh instead. And that's how I use my comedy. And I suppose it's followed me all through life and became a living. And then obviously when I was writing the book, even though I'm writing about dark chapters of my life, some of it I will find the humour in it.

For instance, well, yeah, I did try, there was a suicide attempt when I was 16, but I found the humour in it looking back because I took a bunch of aspirins which I thought would make me unconscious and they didn't so I had to pretend to be unconscious while I waited to die and the the ambulance guys knew I wasn't unconscious and they're whispering in my ear going love we know you're not unconscious you took a bunch of aspirin and I I was method I played on and those poor guys had to carry me down

four flights of stairs. So I basically, I find the humour in a lot of the dark episodes of my life. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously in that, you did say afterwards that it didn't actually better the relationship with your mother, that attempt to self-harm. But again, a very serious issue.

My mother was furious with me. She was furious. Which you bring out. I want to become a doctor. You bring this bring out in a very novel, unique way. And the other issue that you go on about, which you've spoken about here already, is the matter of racism and your experience of it. But now you're in the US and you've begun to highlight the differences that you observe between British racism and American racism. One of a quote from one of your routines says, the Brits are best at racism, better than the Americans at racism. They are so good, you don't even know that you are being discriminated against. And whilst I was

laughing at that, it got me thinking. I mean, what exactly is the difference for you when it comes to racism on both sides of the Atlantic there? Look, it's just as insidious. It's just as horrible. But the Brits are better at pretending it doesn't exist. The Brits insist that it doesn't exist. American racism is definitely more in your face. It's in your face. People know, you know, you've seen it played out all over the world.

And, you know, the concept seen it played out all over the world. And, you know, the concept in America, the belief in America that Britain was less racist because they considered the Brits so more polite and genteel and tally hoes and crumpets and tea. And they forget that Europeans were the number one slavers. At one point, the British Empire subjugated a very huge proportion of the planet. They forget that. Americans learnt their racism from the Brits. So, yeah, that is the difference.

I feel like America's more in your face, but the Brits have learnt to hide it better. They even hid their slavery better by putting all the people they stole on Caribbean islands away from the eyes of British society. So they weren't aware that it was going on. Whereas Americans brought their stolen people to America. So it was all right there in front of people's faces. What I'm hearing from you is you are the master of taking a really difficult societal issue, turning it into comedy

and sending out a really strong message. That's quite an art. I'm a genius. Did you not know this? No, I'm joking. Yeah, look, I've never set out to be a political comedian. Just by virtue of who I am, I'm a walking political statement. I'm a black woman, gay, child of immigrants. I'm a walking statement. So whatever I talk about, if I'm talking about elements of my life or my life experiences, it's going to be perceived as political just because of the way that I'm perceived and treated in society. I'm a comedian and my first port of call has always been to comed. It's always been to entertain. And that you do.

Can we talk about your sexuality? If I see something, I'll say something. And you've talked about your sexuality there. You've mentioned it. You've spoken about it in your book. And I do, in the last few minutes, want to touch on that. Because I imagine it's been quite a journey for you to understand your sexuality. And I want to understand how it was received by your Nigerian family where I imagine as it is in many Asian and African cultures it's just not openly discussed quite possibly not openly accepted no it's not um

unfortunately you know Africans were never homophobic before they were colonized by the the Brits and the missionaries that came in and took away their natural belief in different deities and spirituality and forced Christianity on them. They were not homophobic. Africans, hundreds of years ago, believed in the spirituality of a person. They weren't hung up on gender and sexuality. But when the Brits came with their Christian diet,

you know, religion, they forced it on Africans. And unfortunately, it's been sort of beaten into us over hundreds of years. My mother's a Christian. So she was not pleased when I came out to her. She wasn't pleased at all. But the love of her child conquered all. And so at first she didn't want to acknowledge it. She didn't. You know, but my girlfriend who I've been with for seven years, when she met my mother, she bowed before my mother in a show of respect. And she's a white woman.

She did the research. I didn't tell her to do that. And now my mother loves her. I'm very happy to hear that. And I think we should end on your mother because every chapter and every subheadings in your book, they are named after Nigerian proverbs um I've got a few favorites you cannot cook yams with your anger no matter how hot it is I think I get that one going to church doesn't make you a holy person any more than going to a garage makes you a mechanic what is your favorite and do we need

an explanation on it uh there's a lot of them there's one i don't know if i can do it on bbc radio 4 which is my favorite if you go to bed with an itching anus you will wake up with your fingers smelling which means which basically means that you can't hide stuff stuff will be always come out in the open it will always be revealed and that's a great. It's hilarious and it's kind of gross, but it's also really good. Oh, Gina, I have absolutely loved speaking to you. It is worth you staying up for us. Thank you.

We shall leave you to catch a few hours of sleep. I know it's the middle of the night there, so we appreciate you staying up to share those very important words of wisdom. And we shall, well, you shall leave us to ponder your mother's proverb there thank you so much yes all good bookshops and thank you to gina yeshera did i say it right yes yes yes yes thank you gina yeshera for being with us here on women's hour

on to something that has been in our news bulletins throughout the morning. The Prime Minister confirmed yesterday that most British forces have now left Afghanistan. It follows the decision by US President Joe Biden to withdraw US troops, saying that the Afghans are going to have to decide their own future. Boris Johnson told the Commons the move doesn't mean an end to the UK's commitment to Afghanistan. He said, we are not about to turn away, nor are we under any illusions about the perils of today's situation and what may lie ahead. Taliban fighters have recently seized dozens of districts in Afghanistan as they step up attacks during the final withdrawals.

Speaking to Nick Robinson on this morning's Today programme, Afghan politician Shukria Barakzai was asked as an Afghan and particularly as an Afghan woman how she felt about the current situation. It's the fear not only among Afghan women, it's generally among Afghans because I think it's the time that everyone should consider twice, because first, the terrorist network groups are their nature as terrorists to bring fear, violence and killing the people and destroying the public property. For women in Afghanistan, it's very hard to believe because the lack of partnership and commitment, I can see it now. To be clear, you do not believe that the Taliban have changed. They talk publicly now, their spokespeople, don't they, about peace and reconciliation. They talk about granting women's rights as granted by Islam, from the right to education to the right to work. You're saying that that is simply for Westerners.

This is, of course, this is just for propaganda they are using. But when it comes to their action, when it comes to their leadership, when it comes to their ideology, nothing been changed at all. There is so much to explore. There's so much to unpick. With me is Majuba Narazi from the BBC's Afghan service and Dr. Wida Mehran, a lecturer in terrorism and conflict at the University of Exeter. Thank you both for joining us. Majuba, to you first. US forces have fought in Afghanistan for nearly 20 years. That is, of course, following the terror attacks of the 11th of September 2001. Just give us a sense of what has happened in recent days and weeks after, since those troops have withdrawn?

As Shukria Barakzai said there, growing fear. It's probably end of America's longest war, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily end of war for Afghans. I mean, the conflict is going on. There is no signs of ceasefire at all. And Taliban are making advances very fast. And they are taking districts after districts. And the National Army is only in control of like major cities. So she summed it up very well. It's growing fear there. And everybody's scared for their lives. And Wida, can you be a bit more specific in just telling us what is happening in these territories that Majuba has highlighted there? Because it's obviously not just Kabul where we are seeing tensions rising.

It is these rural areas, the border areas as well. well? What is happening actually in these territories when they fall under control of the Taliban is essentially they are being ruled the same manner that the Taliban used to rule in Afghanistan when they were in power before 2001. There are obviously no schools for, no schools are open for girls and women have to stay at home. They implement their interpretation of Sharia law by punishing anything, any conduct that they see unfit in public. Most recently, what happened in one of these districts was the Taliban punished publicly a woman who was accused of having a phone conversation with a man. And this is exactly what used to happen in Afghanistan when the Taliban were in power. And as Ms. Shukria Barakzai mentioned, they haven't changed. The Taliban have not changed at all, despite what they have been.

Actually, the Taliban hasn't even changed their narrative. So even they haven't even talked about what they will do in terms of allowing women, women's rights and democracy and democratic values in the country. Their narrative hasn't changed either. And there is no absolute. When these districts fall to the Taliban, there is no governance. Basically, the Taliban take over. They're present there militarily. There's no sign of any services, any provision of any services there for the public. It's a vacuum filled in terms of state institutions. It's a vacuum

filled by Taliban armed fighters. And you highlight some of the cultural concerns there. I know that there have been concerns when it comes to infrastructure as well, a lack of electricity this week, just making people's day to day lives so much harder. To both of you, under the Taliban rule in the 1990s, women were not allowed to work, as you've highlighted, Wida. They were discouraged from going to school. Since then, what sort of opportunities have opened up for them? And is there a rural-urban divide? Well, women made a significant breakthrough over the last 20 years. I mean, there is no doubt about that in terms of like their socioeconomic development, as well as getting jobs. And I mean, in general, and more than like 3.6 million girls now go to school and they have real presence in national forces, in police, and they work as judges, journalists, and they are involved in different type of sports. And they have, as I said, real presence and they make up 25% of the parliament. And now the fear is that all these hard fought women's rights will be lost.

And that's the major concern among the Afghan women right now. And you say will be lost. But in recent months, you know, we've had the Kabul University attack, these big institutions being attacked, we've had journalists being killed, and we've had politicians attacked. Was there a sense that the Taliban knew what was coming and then almost up their game to reclaim in advance, Wida? Exactly. You pointed out a very important fact that the Taliban has been in, prior to entering cities and taking over more territories, have been trying to silence the voice of opposition,

the potential voice of opposition. They are targeting attacks against journalists, for example, against educated elite in Afghanistan, particularly women. They were targeting particularly as a female journalists in Afghanistan. And many, they were targeting particularly female journalists in Afghanistan. And many have left the country.

And many are trying and attempting at leaving the country. This has been a very calculated move by the Taliban to prevent any more voices of opposition by women in general and also by ethnic minorities in the country as well, and by educated population in the country. And this is, as you mentioned, these achievements that can easily get lost. And women are in general and other ethnic minorities in the country are extremely worried about what will happen when the Taliban take over. We have recently, one of the biggest achievements for Afghanistan, we have a female athlete right now joining Tokyo Olympics. And the first thing that she is worried about in her interviews is what will happen to the future,

my future and future of women who are in sports. You mentioned the future. You've already mentioned some women are starting to leave the country. And yesterday we heard that the Biden administration is considering offering a visa path for vulnerable Afghans, including women politicians, journalists and activists who may become targets of the Taliban. And how concerned are you, Ida, that people will leave? And what does it mean if they do? I am extremely concerned that people do leave Afghanistan and that can create another brain drain situation for the country and really undermine the social fabric and public institutions in the country. Remember that despite all the achievements that we have made in Afghanistan in terms of education in general, the country remains, the rates of literacy in the country remain very low.

So who leaves the country right now are the educated, the skilled youth who are actually the backbone of the whole state institutions in the country. And when they leave this in itself, even if the country does not fall to the Taliban, this will have a very negative impact on the situation in the country and would actually undermine state building in the country, would undermine development in the country, economic development. It's a loss of social capitals, human capital to this war that will continue. And this generated, it took at least 20 years to, of the most recent era, 20 years of having this, having youth who are educated and skilled who can actually contribute in the country. And losing them while in the backdrop of a war going on

and security situation being bad is a very big blow to the country. It's been heartbreaking, I understand. News at the weekend that women have been taking up arms, marching at this big demonstration in central Gore province, chanting anti-Taliban slogans. How much can we read into this, Majuba? What have your audience been telling you? Do they feel let down?

Massively. I mean, the thing is that they say that the people that I'm in touch with, they say that they have been let down. They feel let down massively. They think it was irresponsible pullout. And they think that the Taliban haven't changed as both you were, I mean, Shukria Barakzai mentioned and Wida. I mean, they haven't changed their narrative. Nothing has changed. And that the Taliban women were barred from education and or work or required fully cover their whole body and could not leave their house without a male relative.

And now they are saying that there is no guarantee. So who is going to guarantee it for us that nothing is going to change? And they firmly believe that once the Taliban are in power, I mean, the history will repeat itself. This is a conversation that isn't going anywhere, despite our troops having left Majuba Narozi from BBC Afghan and Dr Wida Mehran from the University of Exeter. We wish you and your loved ones well in Afghanistan. All the very best to them at this worrying time. And thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. On Wednesday this week, Woman's Hour spoke to Lady Lavinia Norris,

the 77-year-old widow of the former High Court Judge Sir Martin Norris, who just over a month ago was sensationally acquitted of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse. In her first broadcast interview, Lady Norris called for those accused of child sex abuse to be anonymous until charged. She told Emma Barnett that the case has left her life in pieces and described how she felt going into the trial. Hell, that's all I can say.

I've never been so frightened, lonely and utterly miserable. I had my legal team but that was all and the press were out there every day photographing me and harassing me and it was terrifying and of course knowing I suppose if it hadn't gone that way I could have gone to prison. Were you prepared for that? Luckily my legal people were very gentle with me. I asked the question but they very carefully sort of skirted around it. They didn't say no but they didn't say yes you will go to prison but I knew perfectly well that there was a very high chance that if I was found guilty that I would go to jail and I just find it really frightening that people can tell lies

that actually can send an innocent person to prison and that's what would have happened. A moving account there from Lady Norris to hear the full extended interview do go to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour. On to what's happening on the weekend as England reach the finals of the Euros we want to look at the story behind the term WAG or wives Wives and Girlfriends, when it comes to football and the celebrity world that surrounds it. There are some easily recognisable names on that list from Victoria Beckham, Cheryl Cole, Colleen Rooney and Rebecca Vardy. And this tournament, we've not seen too much of the partners in comparison, in part possibly due to them being in a separate COVID bubble to the football team. And maybe we are seeing a new generation of women in these roles.

Should the term wag be seen as insulting or out of date? Sam Kimberley is the author of Wag Wars, the glamorous story of footballers' wives. And Lizzie Cundey is a radio and TV presenter, both here to talk about this. Thank you both for your time. Sam, let me start with you how did the story of waxall begin well footballers have always had uh wives and girlfriends but back in the day when when uh it was all long shorts and dubbing boots um they stayed very much in the background there wasn't very much money involved. It really kicked off in 1966 when we lost.

We won anything. And the wife of Bobby Moore, the captain of the England team, Tina, appeared in the press wearing an England shirt as a mini dress. And that set her off her career as a model. And they got to know celebrities very closely with Sean Connery and his wife. So the glamour accrued from there. So it was deep-rooted, but it was in 2006 and that World Cup when the term WAG really hit the headlines. Tell us why.

Well, it first came up actually in 2002 when they were preparing for the World Cup back then. And they were training out in Dubai. And the bar staff just coined this term WA, then for wives and girlfriends of footballers, which was picked big hair the eyelashes the fake tan the big sunglasses the white stilettos and they practically drank Barton Barton dry of champagne and just descended on the boutiques like a plague of locusts it just made press around the world well let's speak to someone who was at Baden-Baden in 2006 commenting on the football. Lizzie, you were married to a Chelsea footballer at the time, Jason Cundey. I mean, it's a good time also to bring in this tweet that I've had from Catherine, who said, we should mention the women beside the footballers, not behind, as that seems already a value

judgment. They are both equally as important. Thank you, Catherine, for pointing that very important point out to me. Lizzie, what was it like for you having a foot in both camps, really? Well, it was a crazy time. I mean, I've never seen anything like it, to be honest. When I went to Baden-Baden, I was commentating for ITV and it was like the Beatles had arrived I can't describe it every photographer press wanted a piece of these girls and they were you know jumping over doors cameras everywhere just tripping over themselves they couldn't go anywhere and you know all they were doing were going out to the shops like any of us do. But the press were going crazy.

And it was the press that made, you know, that name term wags up. It wasn't the girls themselves that made this up. And, you know, people wanted to read about them. You know, the reason why there was such interest was people really were curious about these girls. And they suddenly were on the front pages of the paper and their husbands were on the back. And, you know, everyone couldn't get enough of them.

Did you ever consider it an insulting term or were you ever offended by being called a wag? Well, let's be honest. I've made a living out of it. I did a musical called Wag the Musical and I've commentated on many of the girls and I've helped some of the players and talk in press about the football world. But for me, I find it quite, you know, tongue in cheek. There are some girls that, you know, find it a bit offensive and thinking we're more than that.

Of course they are. I mean, many of the girls have their own careers, do massive loads of work of charity. And as I do and earn their own living. But it's tongue in cheek. I've never taken it as offensive. And as I say, I've made a very good living out of being one. And you're very honest about that. And I'm just wondering what you make of the Frankie Bridge comments this week. The former Saturday singer, a wife of the retired footballer Wayne Bridge.

She's called the term insulting, but she's also said you're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. As someone married to a player, people don't like it if a wife or a girlfriend of a player is on TV making money. Well, that's it. And sadly, you know, there are a lot of people that are jealous in some respects. You know, they think, look at them and their lovely lifestyles. And then they get a career from it. I mean, look at, you know, we had Victoria Beckham, as you mentioned,

Cheryl Cole, who was in Girls Aloud. But then some of the other girls start getting their own careers. You know, Colleen Rooney, she got given a TV show, got given loads of brands. Joe Cole's wife was asked to go in the jungle. You know, they had careers from this, you know, big careers, big money. And you know what? Some people didn't like it. But you know what?

I always smile when I think of the word way because I just think, you know, some of the girls actually enjoy it and don't mind it, but some do find it a bit offensive and there's a snobbery about it, saying, no, you know, I have my own career, I do this. But, you know, I think we've all got to have a sense of humour about it. And most of all, we all love football and, you know, they were there to support their husbands. They want to be there when their husband scores that goal

at that great moment. But as we said, the WAGs have changed, but that's mainly due to the managers. Sven, who was managing back in Baden-Baden, loved the WAGs. He liked the glamour. He wanted the girls there to support their partners. He thought that was very important. But then when I went to the World Cup in South Africa,

Fabio Capella did not want us about at all. They were told not to talk. It was very difficult for me because I was out there, you know, doing broadcasts. And the WAGs were told they cannot talk to any press. So it was a very different mood. And it was all down to the managers. So we were already seeing that change in culture. And Sam, now, I'm not sure many of us could pick a current whack. I mean, with this current squad, who are the most notable wives and girlfriends? And I don't even feel comfortable saying that because we're talking about the fact that they've all established themselves in their own ways.

May it be as a mother, may it be as a student, some of them are so young, may it be in their own careers. But what do they do? Tell us about them. Well, I mean, as we said, we haven't seen many of the girlfriends and wives throughout the Euros. Just the fact, as you said, there's COVID. It's very different. They're in their bubble. But also, Gareth Southgate is a very, who I know, lovely chap, but doesn't like the fuss, doesn't want the press intrusion. And the girls are there, they want to watch their men score. And you know when your partner scores that goal, the camera's going to go right on them. But they're much more low-key.

And I have to say, I think it's the right way forward. And a lot of these girls are like childhood sweethearts, like Pickford, the goalkeeper. They've known each other since about the right way forward. And a lot of these girls are like childhood sweethearts, like Pickford, the goalkeeper. They've known each other since about the age of 14. They are so very young, you rightly point that out. Sam, let me bring you back in here as well. Tell us more about the current team of wives and partners besides the current team. Well, they tend to be more highly educated. There are law degrees.

Ryan Sterling's fiancée is a property developer. These are substantial women with careers of their own who I think really don't like just to be seen as the wife or girlfriend of a footballer, although they must enjoy some of the financial benefits of it. And I imagine that social media has played a role in changing this as well. We've seen the row, now a court case between Colleen Rooney and Rebecca Vardy playing out. And it really feels like privacy is off the cards in some ways,

that you're constantly being photographed. And that may well have been something that have turned these ladies off, being on the front line like that. feels like privacy is off the cards in some ways, that you're constantly being photographed. And that may well have been something that have turned these ladies off being on the front line like that. Well, again, yes, back in the day in the divorce of Graham Souness and the problems that Cheryl Gascon had with Gaza. I mean, they played out their emotional life in the tabloids. They encouraged this, and the tabloids obviously loved it both for the scandal and I think deliberately to attract more women to take an interest in football. Yeah.

A few tweets that have come in. S. Miller's written, Please stop calling women girls when talking about the partners of the men's and football team. Rightly so. They are young ladies. Thank you very much, S. Miller. And Rachel's been in touch saying, wouldn't it be wonderful progress to be talking about habs, husbands and boyfriends of footballers? Lizzie, is there a male equivalent that is used in the mainstream? I don't think there is. I really don't think there is. I don't know. It was something about the word wags. It captured everyone. They went on the

front page of every paper. Everyone wanted to read about them because, you know, football is, I think, to some girls that wanted to be with the footballer, they were, you know, could get there. You know, if you may dream of being with a Hollywood star that was never going to happen whereas you know what he's actually in my village and he goes to my local pub there's a chance and um you know they were footballers were looking at you know looked at as the new rock and roll stars you know making fortunes of money some of them I mean absolutely astounding wages wages for very young men and that's why women were so

you know, I think, partly attracted to them and that's sadly why a lot of the footballers got on the front pages of the paper instead of the back. We'll be seeing a lot more of the team and their families over the next few days but let me get your predictions for Sunday's outcome

just before you go lizzie first then sam well the team of the wags team i mean we look at the sun today who are kind of saying that the uh how wags have changed and so they've they've gone over to look at the um the italian wags and there's lots of bikini shots and models and stuff. So maybe the old-fashioned waggery is there somewhere. And can I get a score prediction for you

for Sunday? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. Lizzie, come on. Come on, England. 2-0 to England. 2-0 to England. No penalties, please.

No penalties. No penalties. I'll bear it. OK. 2-0. Watch this space. Thank to England. No penalties, please. No penalties. No penalties. I can't bear it. OK. 2-0. Watch this space. Thank you very much, Lizzie and Sam. Good to have your company to talk about this.

And obviously good to have many of your messages coming through as well about how you'll be watching this as well. Rebecca's been in touch to say, I'm not usually into football and my other half is horrified when I've put it on. It's not our scene at all, especially as it's also Wimbledon right now and I love tennis. He says, I'm sportsing. That's a new term. It is fun to see a game

being played so well and get into the spirit. I think many people share that sentiment, Rebecca. Thank you for getting in touch. And another message here. Hello, Women's Hour. I booked a duty

at the Samaritans on Sunday evening, not realising the final was being played on that day. And I followed the England team throughout the tournament. I'll have to watch it on iPlayer and try not to listen to the result. Good luck with that. Good luck with the great work that you are doing, Sue. And thank you for being in touch.

Let's talk about some music now. Helena Pegah is the multi-talented Nigerian-British rapper turned performance artist. She is the founder and lead singer of the Venus Bushfires, great name, behind the world's first opera written in Pidgin English. That's called Song Queen. And she's written music for Christian Dua, Dual PlayStation and Disney. Let's bring her in now. She joins me now to discuss her latest work, Sounds of Us, a sound art snapshot, life, love, fear, hope and protest in the time of pandemic lockdown.

Thank you for joining us, Helen. Good to have your company. Thank you for having me. Good morning. Good morning. Let's start at the very beginning of this story. What was the idea behind this project, sounds of us um really at the time of lockdown as a composer and an artist I felt that it was a time for me to really you know lend words of wisdom to inspire people and I really just couldn't get the words out I found myself you know muted in in some respects I was just so afraid and um but I knew that I had to get it out so I one day I just started painting and then I painted and then I painted and I painted and um that was just a way of kind of starting the music

and from the paintings that I was inspired to to create um a space where people could come together to share the sounds of the lockdown really which is which is what it was, people crying, birdsong, laughing. And I really wanted a sacred space that people would feel safe and be heard. And from the sounds of us, the sound art piece, I then responded with the three paintings that are currently in the Eye of the Unchantress exhibition. It sounds so multi-layered. Let's hear a clip. Right, you need to explain to us what's going on there, Helen. Right, so the songs are from people, everyday people living their everyday lives in London and Lagos during the last year, during lockdown. And you're hearing sounds from the End SARS protests in Lagos. And Abuja, you're hearing sounds from the Black Lives Matter protests. The End SARS being the ending police brutality protests that were so big in Nigeria.

In Nigeria and the sounds from the protests in Lagos. You're hearing sounds from the Black Lives Matter protests in London as well and you're hearing people laughing, crying, struggling for breath, children playing in playgrounds and bird songs and streams and all the things, the beautiful things that happen around our very human idea of what the world is and the world just stopped and I'm just so grateful that people open their hearts and their minds and I was able to capture that in sound and then in art for me I think it was that's that's probably where my where my voice came in I think I found my voice through creating that space that's so powerful on a on a purely logistical note though how did you with all these lock with all the lockdowns going on around the world my voice through creating that space. That's so powerful. On a purely logistical note, though,

how did you, with all the lockdowns going on around the world, I imagine you didn't go out there and gather that material yourself. How did that process work? People just sent me their sounds. I wrote to a few people who sent the message to a few people who sent the message to a few people. So they literally just recorded recorded their sounds and some of the sounds actually really quite um intimate and some of the sounds of family members talking talking about you know fearing death struggling for breath exercising intimate couple sounds you know people really open opened up and the children playing and i think there's just this amazing light that has come through it and um that we're now you know celebrating in an exhibition so this idea i find whenever i create something i always find it so magical that something didn't exist and then all of a sudden it it comes to life through people coming together and it's

literally two continents africa and and europe you know london and lagos and they're mega cities and you see the world in these cities and it's so it's always mind-blowing for me that we think we're all so different but we're really the same what are those common threads that have become so apparent through the work that you that you've done um really coffee machines and children children playing you have some people singing and um you have people praying but you can't really tell whether it's in the uk and it or it's in London and you have men at work or people at work and I just think it's really phenomenal that you're in these two cities that if you hadn't visited you think they're very different but it just shows that people really are the same we have

the same hopes and fears and I think it was really really important to put the protests in there because they were they were the life and everything for some people and for others, it was easy to ignore. But by putting it in this way, it just shows that what affects some people affects us all. Absolutely. And I really, really do believe that. You are best known for your pigeon opera, Song Queen. First of all, what is pigeon for those who don't know? Pigeon is broken English.

So there's pigeon, Cockney English English, patois, Creole. So it's kind of a connective languages that connects two languages, two people, sometimes when they, you know, it initially starts a trade and things like that. So it's a broken common language, colloquial language that connects a number, a number of languages.

And I know that was central to you creating this opera. But opera itself might seem considered to be quite a white-dominated space. So I want to understand what that journey was like for you. What inspired you to create a pigeon opera of all things? Well, I went to the Royal Opera House for the first time, actually, and I saw Percival by Wagner. And during the interval, a lot of people were coming up to me really friendly and things like that but I was wearing a Nigerian gele which is

a head a headdress and a lot of people it was a novelty that night and for me that was really unusual because something I'd worn quite a lot so I realized that maybe people like me were not often seen in spaces like this so I just thought how can I kind of make, what's the most opposite world that I can think of? And I imagine it's kind of like a market in Lagos or in Benin City, people speaking pidgin, or singing it in opera. And I just thought, let's just bring these two worlds together. And that was it. It was born.

And I think it was so fantastic because I think pidgin is such a great, great home for opera because it celebrates people, brings people together. And it brings these worlds together without saying, and now we're going to talk about harmony or diversity. It just is what it is. And I really am glad to add some flavour to the opera scene, so to speak. And you mentioned your image there, walking in to watch that opera in your Nigerian heritage outfit and and on that subject your hair is also a big talking point it's been called mythical gravity defying these updo's that you have it's gravity defying now I'm looking at you you look tremendous

lovely smile and then you've got a piece that is shooting up. That is your almost trademark sign. No, it's a feather. Gosh, it's a feather. It's a feather. Why not? Why not? It's a nine to five situation. So why not have a feather in your hair? How do you describe your hair, your image? It's such a big part of you.

I'm inspired by trees, to be honest with you. And I normally have sort of a bamboo in my hair. I've seen that, yeah. For me, it's just a real amazing connection with, you know, with nature. And, yeah, just to pay ode to Mother Nature and the balance, you know, and spirituality of us all. And I think it's something that has always been something I've kept to myself, but I'm quite spiritual, you know, and I believe in God. And I'm not saying it's the way for everyone, but it's the way for me. And that's certainly been a strength, a strength in my art and in my life.

So, you know, I use the hair to celebrate that because I just think, why not? I don't have to have a regular hairstyle. Why should I? No, you don't. Absolutely not. You look fantastic. Thank you. You've talked about rediscovering your love of painting.

What else have you discovered about yourself through lockdown that i'm a really good mum but i'm a really good mum i'm a mum of two and the last five years you know the thing you always think how am i going to do the arts you know how am i going to balance you know everything that i want to do but it just gave me the opportunity my children we threw we threw paint at the walls and we threw paint on the trampoline and my husband got involved and he's learning the core excuse me and um you know you always fear you know am i doing enough and this lockdown i feel i feel muted how am i going to be strong for my family and then just having time to focus on them i really just thought you know what you're doing okay Helen and you know and that's you just have

to be fine with that it's just you're doing much better than you thought you were and your kids are happy your husband's happy my I'm able to create um Sounds of Us which is my heart's desire you know to be able to do this as an artist and keep creating work keep using music in the arts to bring people together that's really what I'm passionate about and I just saw that it's happening and the you know the feedback from Sounds of Us has been really really phenomenal and to have it celebrated you know at the Dark Materials exhibition is really really phenomenal and I'm always grateful you know I never get used to get never get used to being celebrated I'm always grateful and it just really inspires me to do to do more art and to continue to celebrate different cultures

and bring them together and you've inspired me with the comments at the start of that answer that you've discovered that you are a great mum and we hear so many mums throughout this pandemic lockdown criticizing themselves feeling overwhelmed questioning their ability to be mothers what was it for you that that kind of turned it on its head, really? The times when I was really afraid to go out and my children just wanted to run around, go to the park and just looking at them and what do these two little people need? You know, the two girls, one's four and one's three. And yeah, my husband kept me busy at a certain point

a few years ago. um but yeah just looking at them and my husband just being so strong for me these people just carrying me and I just realized that I was able to to look after them and they kind of just said mummy you're doing great I don't know why maybe I maybe they'd overheard me saying something and you know my four-year-old at the time she's three said mummy you're doing great and we love you I thought I've succeeded at life they're wonderful little beings aren't they yeah absolutely amazing and um that and you know just the times when I thought I was so tired I had nothing more to give all of a sudden excuse me you know I'd wake up and I'd paint and they'd join in and they'd just be so supportive oh my god I could cry but um it was them really that

said that I was doing you know the wise words of a three year old. They are wiser than we think. They are wiser than we think. Helen Fegger, thank you so much for joining us to talk about your latest work, The Sounds of Us, a sound art snapshot. All about the life, love, fear, hope and protest that we've seen in this time of pandemic and lockdowns. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. You can connect with me online at venusbushfires.com. Brilliant. Thank you. Baroness Julia Cumberledge will be joining Emma on Monday. She's led a critical review into how the health service has treated female patients and is angry and frustrated about the lack of progress. Her 2020 report looked into sodium valproate, an epilepsy drug, a primodose,

a hormonal pregnancy test, and the pelvic mesh implant which caused women or their babies harm. It made a list of recommendations to support victims and prevent future avoidable damage. And the four UK governments are still considering those recommendations. A spokesperson for the Department of Health and Social Care in England plans to fully respond later this year. We'd love UK governments are still considering those recommendations. A spokesperson for the Department of Health and Social Care in England plans to fully respond later this year. We'd love to hear from you about your experience of taking these drugs or having an implant. Please do get in touch, email us via our website as well. And we've also had your emails about your plans for Sunday. An email from Fran here, I will be watching heart in mouth.

I was at the World Cup final in 1966. I was 15 years old and working as a chambermaid at the hotel where the West German team were staying. We were given free tickets on the morning of the game. I will never forget it. Please do send your messages in about how you are planning to mark Sunday, to celebrate Sunday, to spend Sunday, whether or not

you are watching. But of course on a more serious note, we do know that incidents of domestic violence increase around big football matches. If you are concerned you can find details of organisations who offer help and support on the Women's Hour website. Thank you

for spending some of your morning with us here at Women's Hour and do try and have a relaxing weekend, football or not. That's all for today. Do join us again. A new fantasy podcast series from BBC Radio 3 and BBC Radio Wales. Beyond the forests, beyond the valleys, there's another world. Mabinogi. Lost legends and dark magic. I know how to get there. Where?

The other world. We shall not surrender! An epic battle across the frontiers of reality. I think this is likely to end in disaster. Step into the other world. Subscribe to Babanogi, Lost Legends and Dark Magic on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.