Woman's Hour - Giovanna Fletcher, Laura Bates, Al-Fayed victims

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Following our reporter Jo Morris' interview yesterday with Kerry as part of our Forgotten Children series, Nuala McGovern investigates the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. She is joined by Sarah Burrows, founder of Children Heard and Seen, a charity supporting children and families with parents or partners serving prison sentences, and Lucy Baldwin who is a research fellow at Durham University and a criminal justice consultant. Laura Bates is best known for her work founding the Everyday Sexism Project and she has written several non-fiction books including Misogynation and Men Who Hate Women. Now she is writing a series of Young Adult novels about an alternative Arthurian legend. The latest is Sisters of Fire and Fury and it asks what if the knight destined to unite Britain was not King Arthur, but a woman? Laura joins Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio.Back in September, in a BBC documentary and podcast, we heard testimony from more than 20 former Harrods employees who accused the billionaire and former Harrods owner Mohammed Al Fayed of sexually assaulting them. Since the documentary first aired, many more women have come forward with allegations of assault, harassment and rape over a period of more than 30 years before his death. Nuala is joined by BBC correspondent Ellie Price, as well as two victims, Jen and Lindsay, who say they have found a bond since sharing their experiences. Nuala speaks to TV presenter and author Giovanna Fletcher from the Himalayas at the start of her trek to raise money and awareness for CoppaFeel! - the breast cancer charity. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, Laura Bates is with us this morning, known to many of you as founding the Everyday Sexism website, but she has many strings to her bow. She has written a young adult novel, Think Knights of the Round Table, but with women at the table. That's

coming up. Also with me today are Jen and Lindsay, two women who have formed a deep bond. They opened up about their story of sexual abuse by the billionaire and former Harrods owner, Mohamed Al-Fayed. And that then paved the way for so many more women to come forward. We're going

to speak to them. Also, we continue our series on forgotten children, which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. A lot of reaction to 17-year-old Kerry yesterday, who struggled after her mum and dad were imprisoned. Today, we're delving into what services are or

should be available. And we'll also go to the Himalayas, as I have been speaking to Giovanna Fletcher, who's leading a trek to keep a focus on checking your breasts. It's all part of Copperfield, the breast cancer awareness charity. So if you want to get in touch on any of the stories we're covering today, the number to text is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

or you can email us through our website for a whatsapp message or a voice note that number 03 700 100 444 but let me begin with our forgotten children series um as i mentioned really taking a look at the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison reporter Reporter Jo Morris spoke to Kerry Wright whose parents were both imprisoned when she was 17. We heard from Kerry yesterday. Let me play a little for you when Kerry describes how it felt to find herself homeless and unable to access support. I guess I felt and it's the similar feelings I felt a lot through all this. I felt so out of control. I felt hopeless. I felt dread, not knowing what's going to happen next.

It's just, you know, seeing your parents look helpless as well. But also I was scared. I was so scared because where will I go? That was one of the main questions. Where will I go? So just how typical is Kerry's experience? What services are in place for the children of people in prison and their wider families? This year, the UK prison population reached almost 98,000. That is its highest ever number.

And often when someone is imprisoned, they leave families behind to cope with their absence. I'm joined today in studio by Sarah Burrows, founder of Children Heard and Seen. That is a charity that supports children and families with parents or partners serving prison sentences. Also with us is Lucy Baldwin, research fellow at Durham University and a criminal justice consultant. You're both very welcome to the studio. Thank you. And let me begin with you Sarah. Can you talk us through what happens when a family member goes to prison? You're in a courtroom, the partner or the parent has just been sentenced to a prison term. Then? Then is the question. So we've supported over 1,200 children in the last 10 years and there and very similar experiences as in the lack of support.

A mother has talked about just sitting in court thinking someone's going to come and tell her what's happened because her husband's just gone down and nobody has come. I remember a 15-year-old girl telling me that she was dancing to some music with her friend and someone phoned and said, your mum's gone to prison, and she was left on her own to manage it. And another mother not expecting to have a prison sentence,

going to court and her child being left at school and no one to pick her up. And I think there is an assumption that when a parent goes to prison, that in some way there are support services for children, and there really are not. What would you say, Lucy? How would you see the services that are available? Well, I think that it's very difficult to identify any specific service apart from the charitable organisations like Sarah's, because there is no formal response to children who are left behind when a parent goes to prison. But you can't support children

if you don't understand where they are, who they are and who's looking after them. And fundamentally, that's the biggest issue. I mean, that gives quite a picture. I mean, we heard from Kerry yesterday and her personal experience, but then also this thought of a parent in a courtroom going to prison when wasn't expected and a kid somewhere else what do you provide to families sarah and i suppose they

have to know you exist number one they do um we provide um our focus is on the child and not the person in prison so it's on the child and the family members looking after the child and we actually provide one-to-one support so the child can process those feelings and emotions about the parent having gone to prison. We provide volunteer mentors to be able to support the children but also we support provide a number of group work sessions so children can actually see other children and realise that they're as normal as they are. So a lot of emotional support there. I want to play another part of our interview with Kerry yesterday because this was something not emotional but very practical. I did go to the housing office but I remember sitting there in front of this woman.

I literally begged them, like, can you do something? I'm desperate like I have nowhere to go I'd rather go into care than like not have anywhere to live and that's and when they were still saying well no you know there's nothing we can do that was when I just felt complete hopelessness. She's 17 she's 17 she doesn't have any home to go to. She was considered at that age too old to enter the care system. Sarah, first to you, who should be providing services to Kerry? For children and young people living on their own,

I do believe that should be the local authority in supporting children. I don't think it for all children with a parent in prison, but I definitely think for children and young people like Kerry. But it's if you don't... I mean, in Kerry's case, obviously she was begging for support. But if we don't know who the children are, there are children living on their own. I mean, last year, in one month alone,

we found five lots of children who were living on their own, and they were 15. And one had been on his own for months. And there is an assumption that when the parent goes to prison, services would know. And in fact, Kerry has been an incredible mentor for us, mentoring a young person whose parent went to prison. It was her father looking after her, and he was a sole carer. And victim support discovered that she was living on her own. It is unbelievable that we are where we are now and children are slipping through the net.

Well, let's talk about that. You know, the fact that these children, you say discover, I think that's a really good word to use because it's basically that nobody knew where they were or that they were by themselves, even if they're 15 years of age. I mean, Lucy, how do you see it? Sarah thinks local authority should be a best place to, for example, help Kerry in the situation she was in. Who do you think it should be i think it should be a multi-agency response because there are there are missed opportunities from the moment that a parent's arrested to identify children and to identify the impact of sentencing a parent to prison so i think it has to be a multi-agency response because it won't always be appropriate for social care to become involved with a family some families are very capable of supporting themselves,

but that doesn't mean that the children won't need additional emotional, practical, psychological and educational support. But you don't think a 15-year-old would be capable of living with themselves? Absolutely not, no. I think in those instances it would have to be social care that would have to be involved. And I've come across families myself where I've had to get in touch actually with children heard and seen during the course of my work in a prison where a mum has come into prison and I've discovered that she's had two children at home on her own, one 17, one 15. And we actually had to find a way to get food and money to those children because they had nothing. So let's take that specific example, if that's OK, because it may be illustrative of others. She went to prison. Did she tell you or was it more through conversations or why was she trying?

Will you tell me that part first? Then I have more questions. Well, both mum and dad were sent to prison. They were both remanded and not necessarily expecting to be remanded. So that and that happens quite often um so when when parents come into prison sometimes mums particularly don't always disclose that they've got children because they're fearful of social services intervention sometimes they're fearful of children being removed and losing their children basically for when they come out so that's one reason the prison did the was aware that she had children but they weren't necessarily aware of the fact that the children were at home on their own at the time. And it's very difficult for women and men

who come to prison to trust professionals, and I think we just developed a relationship based on trust, and the girls struggled more and more as time went on, and so the mam came and asked for help, and we contacted Children, He contacted children heard and seen who were very able to offer immediate support but it isn't Sarah's right it's not a wholly unusual situation. So in a way these children are invisible Sarah I mean is you mentioned Lucy that it was known to the authorities that she had children but not where the children were in that particular case

and I'm just using that case as as I mentioned, as an illustration. But is there a register, Sarah? Should there be a register? There isn't. Of children, I'm talking about, who could potentially be at risk. No, we don't know. I think it's a huge safeguarding issue that we have in this country now that there are children living on their own and we don't know that they're living on their own.

It is resolvable. We piloted with Thames Valley Police data that they use their own data, the police data, not just for people that have committed offences but for volunteers, with the Home Office data and they have run an innovative project of door knocking in Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire when a parent goes to prison. This could be replicated nationally, not necessarily with police going out door knocking because if a family have had the trauma of an arrest,

but the data is there and actually it could be scaled up and done. And actually this is a resolvable problem. We could actually know who the children are and then the data could go into the local authority to go out into the schools and then the teachers would know. We had a headteacher only, deputy headteacher in a very large school only last week saying, how would I know if I had a child in my school with a parent in prison? Well, you won't know unless they tell you or you actually read something about it in the press but i suppose then there is the other side of this and that image of somebody door knocking for example particularly if we think of families that might be very mistrustful of the police maybe had bad experiences in the past which i'm sure leads to some of the issues of non-disclosure um and also teachers knowing i

mean there is a privacy aspect for that child as well on who knows what, when, how. I mean, there is a stigma attached to having a parent in prison. There is, but it doesn't actually have to be about the offence. I think as Kerry talked about yesterday, it's not about the offence. It's that actually they have a parent in prison and they need to know that there's someone safe to go to, a designated person within the school to be able to talk about it and reduce those feelings around isolation and not being able to talk about it. Often they know in school, but it's not being addressed. And we've had children that have had horrendous experiences at school. School need to be able to say, this is, I'm the person, this is the person that a child can come to and talk

about it. And there needs to be training and support within schools to actually be able to know how to support the children. But I suppose in a discreet way. Lucy, do you have any thoughts on that? I agree with Sarah. We've always said that from research that it's found one of the really biggest missed opportunities to support children is within schools. And I think having a designated person in every school is definitely key to supporting children, because it isn't just children who are on their own who suffer by their parent going to prison. You know, lots of children who experience parental imprisonment suffer in many different ways.

And I think identifying those children is half of the problem. But, you know, tailoring support for children is the other half. And what sort of support? The kind of support that Sarah's organisation offers, like psychological, educational, emotional, practical, physical accommodation. it covers the gamut of what children need because i'm mindful that as part of its manifesto in june the current labour government pledged that the children of those who are imprisoned are far greater risk of being drawn into crime than their peers we will ensure that young people are identified back to that word

again um i might use kind of discovered might be a better better better word and offered support to break the cycle um i mean what what does that need to look like and and why is there that emphasis you think on breaking the cycle i think the emphasis is is almost on breaking the cycle is almost incorrectly identifying the point because we do know that children who have a parent in prison have an increased risk but it's really impossible to isolate that risk because of you know and attune that to the fact that the parent has gone to prison because people who go to prison usually come from disadvantaged communities with lots of trauma in the background,

lots of missed opportunities in terms of drug and alcohol support, mental health, poverty, accommodation. And the children are growing up in that same environment. So you can't really isolate the one factor that they have a parent in prison as being the single most important factor as to why they might go to prison in the future. You can't have effective criminal justice without effective social justice. And it's the social environment that the children are living in that places them at risk. Parental imprisonment is one indicator. Let me read some of the messages that are coming in. Schools should be trained on how to help children with a parent in prison,

the same way they're trained to deal with bereavement or radicalisation. There should be a system for recognising these children and supporting them when their whole world is turned upside down. Another, I'm a social worker and work within children's services. A 17-year-old young person is not old enough to be offered care by, is not too old, forgive me, not too old to be offered care by the local authority. She should have been given the option to go into a foster placement and get the support she needed. I don't understand why the local authority did not accommodate her. And another one, great to see you covering parental imprisonment this week. I feel wider society don't realise that these children remain invisible. I left home at the age of 15 when my mum went to

prison. That was 20 years ago. And people are shocked when I tell my story. To know that it's still happening is astounding. We need action now. And that one from April. Coming back to, I suppose, responsibility. Sarah, who do you think, which minister or which department should be ensuring that part of that pledge, at least, I don't know whether you agree

with the whole pledge of the current Labour government, but to find out that they are identified and then they also talk about breaking that cycle of not being drawn into crime. I think it's the Department of Education. I don't think it sits under the Ministry of Justice. It isn't about children having family ties and reducing the offending of the person in prison. This is about children and children themselves children have to be the heart of it all and it is a safeguarding risk why this continues. Department of Education says Sarah Lucy what say you? I agree that the Department of

Education need to be involved but I think it it's it's broader than that I actually think that you know it it it needs to be a cross-party commitment and a multi-agency response with ministers from social care, from education and from just a community background to recognise some of the challenges that children face. And I think in terms of identification, the Ministry of Justice do have a responsibility because when people go to court, there is a missed opportunity there for when somebody's been sentenced to identify the children. I think every person should have, every parent who is in court should have something called a PSR, a pre-sentence report, which is written by the probation service. And in that probation report, it should identify what the impact of a parental imprisonment sentence would be

where the children are how old they are who will be caring for them and what their needs are i want to come back to that in a minute particularly in relation to mothers um but what i also want to do was play a clip from parliament last week this is conservative mp richard holden who put the following question to sir nick dakin who who is Junior Lord of the Treasury and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. A recent parliamentary answer to my WPQs talked of the positive impact that relations with families can have on prisoner resettlement. However, in a number of cases, particularly where there's been sexual violence involved in these cases, the prison has no contact with the family and their release is a hugely traumatic moment for those families and children. yn ymwneud â'r casau hyn. Nid yw'r prifysgol yn cysylltu â'r teulu ac mae'r llawr yn foment trawmatig iawn i'r teuluoedd a'r plant. Dyna pam roeddwn i'n gobeithio i'r pleidleisydd Llawerd gyflwyno system adnoddol i blant o'r prifysgol fel fesur pwysig. Beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i gyflawni'r pleidleisydd hwn a breidio'r

cyfnod oeddiol dros gyfnodau? Rwy'n gwybod bod adnoddau plant â pharent yn y prifysgol yn bwysig i gael y cefnogaeth y maen nhw'n ei angen. I know that identifying children with a parent in prison is important so that they can receive the support they need. Strengthening family ties remains an integral aspect of our work, which is why our family support workers help to re-establish appropriate family ties and help facilitate visits from prisoners' children. My officials are working closely with the Department for Education to determine how much more we can do in this space. So that's a little from Parliament. I also want to read a statement from the Department of Education. This says, growing up with a parent in prison can have a devastating impact on a child's life opportunities. We've taken better measures to identify and support these children. We've published the first official statistics of the number of children with a parent in prison

to better understand the scale of this challenge. We're also breaking down barriers to opportunity, taking action to prevent more women and mothers from getting caught up in crime in the first place. So there's a lot of information there. Lucy, does it go far enough? No, and I think one of the things that is really important to acknowledge is that a lot

of the research that exists around children impacted by parental imprisonment is out of date so there has to be a cross-party commitment to commit to a long-term large-scale research study to look at the impact and what happens and but we can't put off any action until the results of that research come out because we know enough. What would be in the research study what does it specifically want to know? We need to know what are the missed opportunities when a parent goes to prison. I did some research with mothers for example and it was very clear that for almost all of the mothers who went to prison there'd been multiple missed opportunities often going back to their own childhoods

that were missed and resulted in them experiencing trauma, mental health issues, substance misuse issues and then that impacting on their criminality. So leading on from that do you think the impact of parental imprisonment should affect the sentencing of parents, particularly mothers? Yes, I do, actually. And I think that you have to look at balance. Judges are required, actually, under their own sentencing guidelines to look at the impacts on children. It doesn't always happen as consistently as it should, but they are required to look at the impact of a sentence on children. But it should depend on the crime that the mother has committed. Yes, obviously, you can't disregard crime

and there will always be some crimes that a prison sentence is the only option. Sarah, you're nodding. You agree? No, I think we just need to always think about the child. We come from the perspective of not about the sentencing, but when there is no option but a custodial sentence, what is the impact upon the child and where are the support services for the child? So there's a lot of talk about sentencing and family ties,

but there isn't much talk about children and the impact upon them and what about them. And they're the ones that should be at the heart of everything that we do. Thank you both very much for coming in. And we're going to continue our series throughout this week. That's Sarah Burrows,

who's with me, founder of Children Heard and Seen, Lucy Baldwin, research fellow at Durham University and also a criminal justice consultant. Really interesting. We'll continue our conversation on this, as I mentioned, tomorrow.

Now, I want to turn to Laura Bates, who is best known for her work founding the Everyday Sexism Project. She's written several non-fiction books, including Misogynation and Men Who Hate Women. Now she has turned her hand to young adult fiction

with a series of novels about an alternative Arthurian legend. The latest is Sisters of Fire and Fury, and it asks, what if the knight destined to unite Britain was not King Arthur, but a woman? Laura has come into the studio, just exchanging seats with my previous guests. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Or welcome back, perhaps, I should say.

So why did you decide to delve into this familiar world of Knights of the Round Table, King Arthur, all of that, but in such an unfamiliar way? Well, there are so many reasons. I know it might seem like a bit of a strange departure for me, but for me, I see everything I do is kind of tied up in my activism. So it's partly, of course, about revisiting history and looking at where the missing pieces are, looking at where the missing voices are, asking questions about whose stories we haven't heard and should have done. But it was also for me something of an escape. And I think hopefully the aim was also to provide that for my readers. I work with so many women and young women who are reeling, I think, from the heaviness of what we are facing and what they are facing on a day-to-day basis. And I love the idea of providing a kind of really exciting, courageous, adventurous escapism, but still within a feminist lens. I don't think we can ever underestimate the importance of escapism and joy.

Yes, feminist joy. That was so important for me. This book is about revisiting Arthurian legend in a playful way, but it's also about sisterhood and about empowerment and about finding strength within yourself that the world has told you doesn't exist. So it's also about hopefully providing those messages. So I don't want to spoil, give any spoilers, but can you give us an idea of your protagonist and the sisterhood that is formed in this world you have created. Absolutely. So it is within the world of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table that readers will be familiar with. But I didn't want to do a straight kind of gender flipped retelling.

So this story focuses on a group of women, a sisterhood who have created their own fellowship away from prying eyes, and on a young woman named Cass, who's in her late teens, who really stumbles upon them and ends up becoming initiated into this world wildly beyond her imagination of what women were allowed to do and allowed to be. She's living a very sheltered existence in a world that has a very clear idea for her of what her future will look like as a woman living in that time period and this turns all of that upside down and everything she thought she knew on her head but of course being an Arthurian legend it also has elements of myth and mystery and so Cass learns that there is a prophecy about her birth and about her future and

her destiny that makes her realize she's perhaps more powerful than she ever imagined she could be. We love a bit of power. On practical levels, you learned to joust? I did. Tell me about that adventure. It's very important to me that it be realistic and researched. And actually, the experience of this was absolutely phenomenal. I went to the International School of Riding in Warwickshire, where you can learn to joust, to sword fight, to shoot arrows. I actually went back and learned horseback archery for the second book. And I have to say it was one of the most incredible... You learned horseback archery? I did. And it sounds crazy because you've got one hand... It is crazy, Laura. You've got one hand in a bow, one hand in an arrow, and you suddenly think,

how am I going to hold on to the horse? But they are the most incredible teachers, and I can't recommend it enough to anybody listening. It was exhilarating and empowering and freeing and helped me, of course, to really step into these characters' shoes. That's what I'm thinking. You must start thinking of your characters in a completely different way, a much more physical embodiment. Yes, and it's a physical embodiment that there isn't a great deal of kind of documentation for. We're used to reading about men having sword

fights and how men would fight and we're used to reading about men jousting and kind of exactly how that works in terms of their bodies and their strengths but for me what was fascinating was to think well what would happen if you were a woman holding a sword? How would your perhaps greater agility help you in a fight? How might weapons have been modified to enable women to use them more effectively? And that was a lot of fun. Did women fight in the Middle Ages? Well, what's fascinating, actually, is that when I researched this book, of course, what we hear so often is, oh, there's no women in these stories, because women weren't doing anything interesting. The reality is that there are tantalising snippets

of historical documentation, one in particular that just thrilled me about a group of women turning up at jousting tournaments on horseback, refusing to leave unless they were allowed to join in. And apparently these tournaments descended into chaos because these women were so rowdy and so determined. And that was very much a kind of spark of inspiration for me. I love the rowdy, determined women. I'm speaking to Giovanna Fletcher a little later in the programme. She's leading 120 women up the Himalayas.

Wow. Which, I don't know, is kind of giving me some picture as well of how rowdy that might be. Were you always into Knight's Round Table? Yes, I grew up loving these stories and these legends and their sense of adventure and courage and chivalry and also how deeply kind of flawed and detailed these characters were. But when I revisited them a little bit later on, I suddenly realised we recognise these names and these people that we come to know so well. You've got Arthur and Lancelot, of course, but you've also got Gawain

and Galahad and Pelennor and Bedivere and Percival. There are so many of them. They're all so individual. And then you turn to the women and realise you've got Guinevere, but she's kind of there as a love interest for the men. You've got Morgan Lefebvre or Morgana, but she's kind of there as a foil for Arthur. At a stretch, you've got the Lady of the Lake, who in many versions simply pops up to hand Arthur his sword and disappears forever. So it was very important to me to find a way to revel in that complexity and those flawed, very different characters, but through a female lens. And playing with some of the real characters was a lot of fun. Of course course in the

original you have the character of Elaine who falls hopelessly in love with Lancelot and then just kind of dies for love of him and wilts away. In my story Elaine turns up nine months pregnant and furious with Lancelot and is an extremely empowered and bold character. And you know we've briefly alluded to at the top how this contrasts perhaps with your work with everyday sexism. I went back on your website last night and it's just, you know, the stories keep coming off various everyday sexism that people are up against. And I love kind of the way you've not flipped it exactly, but managed to take some of that feminism and then put it into these books. But this is part of a series and I can very much visualise it and others will be able to watch it

too. Hopefully so it is slowly moving through the process towards the possibility of a television adaptation so who knows. What would that be like? Exciting I think. But you must already have the characters in your head of what they look like because I think. But you must already have the characters in your head of what they look like. Because I will say the first book, this is the second book. You must already know what you would like them, how you would like them to manifest. To a degree. I mean, what I really loved and what was important to me about the kind of cast of characters in this book is that it is very much a kind of a group thing. It's about sisterhood, but it's intergenerational. There is such a variety

of different people there. You know, there are women of colour, there are non-binary knights. And that was important to me as well, because the same people who will tell you none of these people were involved in the building of Britain will have no problem at all with Merlin, a wizard, being in the story. You know, I wanted to reclaim space for a really diverse cast of characters, because the teenage girls that I work with on a day-to-day basis are genuinely coming up against boys in their peer group, but also men online, particularly on social media, who will say, you know, men built this country, men built Britain, women didn't do anything, they just sit at home, they don't need the vote. You know, really regressive ideas are surfacing. And for me, it was important to take a kind of mythology that for some people is very foundational to their idea of Britain and what it looks like, and to reclaim space within that foundational narrative for a much greater variety of people.

And I've heard you talk as well about teenage girls in everyday life needing to put on kind of some armour before they go out in the world? Absolutely. I mean, it really isn't an exaggeration. Around 80% of young people told Ofsted recently that sexual assault is normal, common in their friendship groups. 89% of young women have been sexually harassed in public spaces. Literally, in some cases, they will be putting on baggier jumpers, you know, changing a short skirt for trousers, because they are predicting harassment before it happens. They'll be wearing headphones so that they don't hear men shouting at them in the street. You know, all of those defence mechanisms, they'll be carrying their keys

between their fingers at night and texting each other when they get home safely. Devastatingly, it isn't that far off having to arm themselves, feeling that they are responsible, which of course they are not, you know, for arming themselves to go out into a world which actually we should be making safe for them. So I felt that there were also a lot of parallels here with that idea of young women desperately battling a world which is hugely unfair to them. Laura Bates, the book is called Sisters of Fire and Fury.

But don't go away, Laura, you're going to stay with us because I have another conversation coming up next and I want you to listen to that item and we will chat again. So stay with me here in studio. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Back in September, in a BBC documentary and podcast, we heard testimony from more than 20 former Harrods employees who accused the billionaire and Harrods owner, Mohamed Al-Fayed, of sexually assaulting them. Since the documentary first aired, many more women have come forward with allegations of assault, harassment and rape over a period of more than 30 years.

Now, after that documentary was broadcast, five women who worked for Al-Fayed, Jen, Lindsay, Nicole, Catherine and Gemma, have formed a bond. And it's more than just a new friendship. The women are bonded by what has happened to them. A bond that Jen says will probably last for the rest of our lives. Jen and Lindsay are with me to talk about it all this morning,

about the strength and the joy that can be found in friendship during dark times as well. We have Ellie Price, a BBC journalist who's been reporting on the story. I'm going to start with Ellie and welcome to you all. Since that programme was first broadcast in September, how many more women have come forward? So many. It's really difficult to put a figure on it. But I think let's start with the number we know who contacted the BBC. We've had hundreds who contacted us and at least 70 of them detailed abuse, sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape, in some cases. Then you could go to the Harrods figure. Now, that's the number of women who were engaged in the compensation process launched by Harrods itself. That's 290 women currently engaged in that process. And then,

of course, we've got several legal challenges going on. There's the Justice for Harrods Survivors, which says it's going to represent around 400 survivors. And then another law firm, Lee Day, which says it's representing 100. Now, obviously, you can't add all those numbers together. There'll be some crossover between the two of them. But yeah, look, we're talking we're talking dozens, obviously, if not hundreds. And that is all just since September. Now, it was reported last week that the Metropolitan Police has referred itself to the police watchdog involving two complaints. What more do we know? Yeah, that's right. So that happened at the end of last week

where the Met Police has referred itself to the Independent Office of Police Conduct, referring to these particular two cases that it says it failed to investigate in 2008 and 2013, or at least failed to get far enough to go to prosecution. It says the Met Police that it's reviewing all claims that it's had about Mohammed Al-Fayed. It said it received reports from around 21 women who accused Mohammed Al-Fayed between 2005 and 2023. It's going to look into whether it made failings on those allegations, as well as whether there are any allegations of criminality that can be pursued against living people. Because of course, don't forget, in all of this, Mohamed Al-Fayed died last year, aged 94. And a response from Harrods on any of these

developments? Well, as I say, the abuse that's alleged happened in multiple places in Fulham Football Club that Mohamed Al-Fayed owned, in other businesses and in other properties that he owned. But as I say, there's obviously been this enormous focus on Harrods because obviously that's where it would seem the majority of it seemed to take place. Of course, Harrods is under new ownership since 2010. It says it's been appalled by the conduct of Mohamed Al-Fayed. Just yesterday it sent me another statement saying it condemned the abhorrent actions of Mohammed Al-Fayed. Been some interesting developments in the last few weeks.

Last week it introduced an advocate for survivors named Jasvinder Sangira who's going to meet we're told with survivors, as many of them as possible and guide them through the compensation process. And it's got this internal review going on to look at

whether there is anyone still working at Harrods who might have been involved in any of these allegations. It has though declined to comment whether any action has been taken against any individual or indeed when this whole process might be completed and of course we have asked them repeatedly for a spokesman to come and talk to us about it all. Yes and just briefly Ellie you mentioned Harrods and the new boss Michael Ward. The BBC did approach him last week. Did he respond? Yeah, it was a very short message from him. He said he was very dreadfully sorry for everything that happened with Mohamed Al-Fayed. And now the two, Michael Ward and Mohamed Al-Fayed, worked together while Michael Ward was the managing director from 2005 till 2010 when Mohamed Al-Fayed sold the business.

As I say, he remains in post at Harrods. But as I say, we haven't had anything more than that short comment from him. Ellie Price, thanks very much. We'll speak to you again, no doubt. I want to bring in Jen and Lindsay. You're both very welcome. Perhaps I'll start with you, Jen. Did you all meet at BBC Breakfast when you did that first interview? Have I got that right? We actually met just prior to that.

There was a press conference that took place the day after the documentary and that's when actually all of us met for the first time. Although some of us did work together, Lindsay and I, we did actually share an office. So we had met some 35 years ago um but but reconnected at the press conference um and the BBC Breakfast Sofa interview that we did the following week was the first time that we were all interviewed together. What do you remember of that time Lindsay? Oh I remember being uh extremely nervous worried about um how the public would view our plight, our campaign.

And, you know, it was very unnerving for people to know that you've been sexually assaulted or raped. It's just out in the public domain. And, you know, that's quite terrifying in itself. But, you know, through the process we've been through over the last couple of months, we're really after that, like how did you begin to come together, I suppose, and trust one another? I'll go back to you, Jen. Well, I think it's important to say that when we were all working for Mohammed at various points over that kind of 25-year period,

that we all very much felt that what we were going through was in isolation, that it perhaps was only happening to us. And so, and obviously we weren't encouraged to talk to each other. In fact, we were, you know, very much encouraged not to talk to each other and not to be friends. And so for me, when I watched the documentary, that was actually the first time I'd heard of a lot of these women's stories.

That was the first that I knew that I wasn't alone. And so coming together at the press conference the day after was hugely emotional because for the first time we could all wrap our arms around each other physically and metaphorically and provide some comfort for one another. And we are the only people that know how that feels to live through that period of time. And so even though we've shared some pretty traumatic stuff

over the last eight weeks, it almost feels like there's a shorthand between us of being able to talk freely, being able to talk without judgment and not having to explain ourselves because we've all been through that very similar scenario. So actually coming together and sharing and supporting has been incredibly easy. And what did it feel like, Jen, to realise after all that time that it wasn't just you going through that? I think it's strangely comforting and horrifying at the same time. I'm comforted that I have a place now to speak safely and to have the support of all those women, those incredible women. But I'm so incredibly sad that there are so many of us, so incredibly sad.

And the numbers are still rising. We had a, you know, a couple of years ago, I was contacted by Keaton Stone, who basically has led this investigation. And at the time that I first spoke to him, there were just a handful of us. And he has tirelessly continued to investigate. And Keaton's work, along with the press that we've had the support from organisations like the BBC, have encouraged now so many more people forward. And that's a brilliant thing. But it's also the most hideous thing to think of just how far reaching his abuse was. Let me turn to you, Lindsay. I'm wondering about your experience, realising what you had gone through was something that these other women that you now have a bond with had also experienced. Yes, well, it was quite a surprise for me because, I mean, as Jen said, I worked in an office with Jen and with another colleague, Sophia, who is the wife of Keaton Stone, who started this investigation.

And when we agreed to do the documentary, I think there was about five people in it. And we didn't know the sheer scale that it would get to and you know then they were saying there was 15 people or 12 people in it and once it came out um you know i was absolutely blown sideways um by the sheer numbers that have come forwards and um and it's been quite incredible because the bonds that we have made are fantastic. And as Jen said, we have this shorthand. So if we just understand exactly what we all went through, we don't have to go into the nitty gritty. And we also know that, you know, how much it's affected us. It's taken so long to even have the courage to come out and speak to it.

It's been even hard to bring it up with the therapists. So now between all of us survivors, we can just pitch into the group that we have on Signal and everyone is there to support you. Everyone's got everyone's back, which is great. And you mentioned Keaton Stone there and his partner, Sophia.

Thank goodness. They were on Woman's Hour on the 25th of September. If some people want to check out that episode as well for more details, really, on how a lot of this came to life. Because I think a shocking thing about it,

that you did know each other, that you were working in the same offices all that time ago. It's almost like trying to revise what you thought your history was with these people that were around you. That's exactly right. So Jen and I, well, we only really knew each other's names and working processes.

Safire and I had a friendship after our days at Harrods. But even over those 35 years between Safire and myself, we never even discussed what happened to us. I didn't know about what had happened to her and likewise vice versa until the documentary came out because we found it too traumatic. And then last week, Jen said, you know, it's really good to reconnect with me. And she said, no, actually to connect with you for the first time, because we just worked in the same office. You weren't allowed to chat and it was very discouraged. So I feel so empowered

by the friendships we have now. They will be there for the rest of our lives. Yeah, that was something also reading just kind of how you were kept separate and not encouraged to have a relationship or chat with one another. Listening to you, Jen and Lindsay, is Laura Bates,

who's really well known for her work on the Everyday Sexism Project. And you're listening to their stories. I'm just wondering what's going through your head, Laura. Well, enormous admiration for the, you just almost don't imagine what courage I know it must have taken to do this,

to be so brave, to come forward, to share stories, often to wave anonymity. And the strength that that must take is absolutely remarkable. And I think so many I know from my work, there will be thousands of women who will be listening, who will have heard you, who will have seen what you've spoken out about in documentaries, who will be so grateful. And it will have made such a difference to them to know in turn that they are not alone, that it wasn't their fault, that it is okay if they feel that they want to

to come forward and to report what happened to them. And that's an incredible act of public service, really. An act of public service. Lindsay, what's your thoughts on that? That's very kind. I mean, what we want to do is make sure that that we can save another 20 year old or however many from this happening to them and we want to make sure that they know that they can speak out because carrying it with shame was just terrible and i feel like my whole body is lifted now just so much lighter and so much better and to know that we're helping others is a wonderful thing jen i'll just go to you very briefly in our last 30 seconds um did you know

you had the strength within you not at all no and i think without all these other amazing women standing beside me i wouldn't have found that strength i'm just very glad now to have those lifelong friendships and to have finally allowed the truth about the despicable creature Mohammed was to come to light. I want to thank Lindsay and Jen for speaking with us this morning. Also Laura Bates who has been with us on Woman's Hour

and just to mention also that other episode, 25th of September, if you'd like to hear it on Keaton Stone and his partner Sophia who are also on Woman's Hour. Next to the TV presenter and author Giovanna Fletcher she's in the Himalayas at the start of a four-day trek raising awareness for Coppa Field the breast cancer charity and also helping guide over 120 supporters through that mountain range. Among those lacing up their hiking boots and acting

as group leaders with her are Dragon's Den entrepreneur Sarah Davies, TV presenter Emma Willis and Paralympian Erin Kennedy. I spoke to Giovanna earlier and it was just a few hours into their very first day. I asked her how she's feeling. Yes, it's the first day of the trip. We had a little orientation walk yesterday but now we are properly feeling it and what's interesting is that we're walking with local guides and they're telling us it's, you know, it's the easiest day, it's the walk yesterday but now we are properly feeling it and what's interesting is that we're walking with local guides and they're telling us it's you know it's the easiest day it's the flattest day and we basically started on a very steep incline so everyone's like oh my god this is the easy one so it's really that beginning of the trek feeling of I suppose trying to conquer

apprehension or particular fears that there might be for what's ahead. Yeah, exactly that. And I always feel like everyone comes with different things that they're apprehensive about, different fears, whether that's whether they're physically going to be able to do it mentally, emotionally, where they're going to go for a wee, you know, all those things that you know, you just, they're in your mind. And, you know, you don't know what the first day is going to be like. And I've been doing this for a long time now this is my 13th trek and but I always find that the first morning is actually the most difficult you know you're physically you might be tired from

traveling uh and just sort of seeing what what everything what's your body doing um and your lungs I always think they take a while to catch up with you but by the end of the week we'll be breezing through I'm sure uh or just you know going quickly so that the end is in sight. So you are a proper cheerleader for the rest that are coming along with you. Give us a few more details about what's ahead. We're obviously trekking today and then we've got three more days of trekking ahead. Lots of very steep mountains and what's incredible is today that we're walking and across the valley we can see one of the mountains that we're going up tomorrow and it looks absolutely stunning but for a lot of us

we're sort of like oh my gosh that looks incredible but also that is going to be hard but what I love about the treks and I think this is something that Copperfield do so incredibly is I always say like I don't care how fast people go you, I don't want you to get to the finish straight away. It's all about being together as a group and getting each other through. And because of that, there's always such an amazing atmosphere. We've got incredible captains. We've got four incredible captains with us this year. So we've got Erin Kennedy, Emma Willis, Angela Scanlon and Zara Davies.

And they're just incredible. Like going into each group and seeing how each woman is really championing their team. You know, the anticipation, those anxieties we were talking about earlier. They've managed to really sort of dispel those straight away and just kind of get rid of them and just make sure that it's about us all being together and just treating everything as it comes. And with a sense of humour, I think is the most important thing ever on these challenges. But 120 supporters, have I got that right, that are going on the trek? Yeah, 120.

Is it like herding cats or is it more like a regimented military position? The one thing I love, I think it's a mixture of the two, the one thing I love about these treks is that for me, it feels like I come along and I spend every day, you know, kind of telling my kids,

we've got to do this and being the one in charge. Whereas I come on these and there's people that know what they're doing I don't need to make any decisions I just need to walk just need to walk and talk and it's such a beautiful thing because I don't think any of us actually get that that chance to do that so yeah we just literally get our heads down walk taking the view and talk about a lot of things because obviously we've got 120 trekkers a lot of people here have had a breast cancer diagnosis or um someone close to them has or they might be here because they are just hitting a certain milestone age-wise something's happened in their life and they just want to challenge themselves so there's so much that everyone comes with everyone has a story whether it's cancer related or not everyone comes with something and there's something about

walking with a bunch of strangers that just lets all that out. You don't have to worry about how someone's going to perceive something or how a family member might take you feeling about thinking about a certain thing in some way. You just talk. And because of that, it's just, yeah, it's just brilliant. It's a lovely place to be. And what's your story? I met Chris, the founder of Copperfield, 10 years ago. And I knew as soon as I met her that I would do anything for her. But two of my aunts have had breast cancer. And someone who was very close to me when I was younger also had breast cancer.

And I remember seeing her in a hospice. And at the time, she was in her 60s. And I remember thinking when I met Chris, who, you know, when I met her, she had been diagnosed when she was 23. And so my mind went instantly to Molly and her in that hospice. And I just thought, I can't believe that I felt like my whole life had been lied to in terms of breast cancer. I assumed that it was something that older women got and that it was only women and that it was only a lump. That's not the case at all. You can get breast cancer at any age. Men get diagnosed with breast cancer.

400 men a year in the UK get diagnosed with breast cancer. It's not just a lump. It's thickening of the tissue. It's dimpling. It's rashes. It's inverted nipple. It's nipple discharge. Anything that changes.

And it's also important to know that when people are checking that you've got to go up to your collarbone and under your armpit as well. So it's not just what you perceive to be your your boob or your chest and I think knowing the signs and symptoms it can literally save so many lives and if you're on top of it and if you're checking and you find something and you go to the doctor if it's something that's not your normal it can literally be the difference between survival and not um you know so knowing your knowing your body is just such an important thing to do so i've been doing these treks now for seven years and we can really easily feel like well

i've said it now and everyone's heard it but that's not the case at all we need to keep banging the drum because we don't know if someone hears the message today and goes oh actually maybe i should go to the doctor about that little thing that's been niggling me that's a bit embarrassing but actually maybe i should just put my big old knickers on and just go out there or whether they hear hear it and go in 10 years time they might be like oh that's not my normal I know I should go to the doctor so I think it's something that we have to keep talking about and reminding people of because we can't just I think well everyone knows now so let's stop I think it's it's really important. And Chris Helenga who was the founder of Copperfield and really who was advocating for all those things that you just talked about when you're checking your breasts and collarbone and under the armpits.

She so sadly passed away in May this year. I mean, an amazing life, really, in what she achieved, I think, in her life and also in her death, being so open about it. What's your fondest memory of her? Ah, I truly feel like, and I think a lot of people that had Chris in their lives felt that Chris was sent to just do everything that she did. She achieved so much in her lifetime. But my fondest memories of her are all the cold swims that we used to have in Cornwall. And I always used to have that thing of Chris would always go first.

And it was one of those things where she's done it so I just have to but there was one point in Newquay Harbour where we got in and had a little swim around it was absolutely freezing but then there was a seal and it was just the most magical thing and it didn't always go right you know there was another time where she managed to talk us into having inflatables on our cold water swim and again she got in first that i got in but my float just wanted to float off so i had a little panic where i had to just definitely get off the float and just swim back but i did think that was my maybe me going off into the sea somewhere but yeah i i feel so honored to know that chris is and was i find past tense such a that's a difficult thing to

to you know she she remains such a massive part of my life and and these treks feel like such a difficult thing to to you know she she remains such a massive part of my life and and these treks feel like such a gift so the fact that I'm able to continue spreading her message that you know that we're able to help Copperfield which is her baby to just get more and more people body aware so that they they too can you know long lives. And the fact that Chris lived with cancer for 15 years, you know, and she really did live. She did. I can remember at her funeral, you know, which for anyone that doesn't know,

she had a living funeral when things started, you know, she was having more cancer activity in her brain. She decided to have a living funeral. And it was the most bizarre, beautiful thing ever. And her friend stood up at the start of it. And she was like, you know, none of us know what this is. We don't know. We don't know how we're meant to feel. So just ride it. And it was such a celebration of life. Yes, there were tears, obviously, but there was so much laughter and euphoria and that feeling of how wonderful it is to be alive.

So, you know, that is certainly something that I take with me and I hope that we bring along to the treks. Yes. I'm just thinking about you say, you know, having to say that message over and over again, just as you were speaking, Giovanna, I was thinking, you know, there are younger women that are coming up as well that perhaps haven't heard it previously. So I understand why you need to repeat it. Have you been able to speak to your husband, Tom, and your children are they are they used to you doing this that mum kind of goes off and does your thing they are the kids keep saying they want to they want to come along so at some point I'm gonna have to set up some

something for the kids um and I think over the years what I've realized is that when I get home they love it like they're straight in my bag they're getting my walking poles they're having my water bladder and going out on little things in the garden they put the tent up so it's incredible actually because I think so many of us have that guilt of well I can't do that because you know the kids and blah blah blah but actually I've I've actually seen how it inspires their play that what they want to do and um so uh yeah so we have spoken but mostly i uh will take videos and photos and then send them on just because i think actually it's very easy when you're the parent that's away and me and tom have to you know for work and stuff we all take it in turns to be

the parent that's away it's very easy to go oh i'm free i'm gonna phone home but we don't take into account what's going on at home in that moment and what we might be disrupting so sometimes it's easier to send a video and go when the moment's right you know yeah here you go here's a here's a tour of my tent you know whatever that is that day which i'm sure they love so just before i let you go what's ahead today how many miles do you have ahead of you today oh gosh i don't even know we've got about three hours walking left today but we're about five and a half hours ahead of you so about three hours left of walking and then some nice you know horizontal action I think is required where I'm looking at you now behind you because you're on a video screen it looks very green very lush

yeah it's absolutely gorgeous it's really gorgeous and I think actually the terrain will change throughout the days but if I if I think about other treks we've been on, obviously Sahara's desert, Oman was sort of very barren, so it's very nice to be somewhere that's, we've seen monkeys today we've seen monkeys, that's incredible There we go

a little trek that we had with Woman's Hour to the Himalayas with Giovanna Fletcher day one with 120 others raising awareness for the breast cancer charity Copafil. Now I want to go back to where we started. Forgotten children. When a parent is imprisoned is something we're talking about all this week. Here's a comment. Both me and my partner were due to be sent to prison so my five-year-old would be left and I was also pregnant at the time. There was no support at all. I asked for

support for my son's school. It opened up a can of worms. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Multiple social services referrals despite no issues being found. Teachers completely changed how they dealt with my son at school. He lost all his friends. He was no longer invited to birthday parties. It was a terrible time

for him. In the end my sentence was suspended and the children's dad went to prison for many years. It was a very hard time. It's made us all very fearful of any kind of help. I was shocked at the time. I'm not surprised that it hasn't got any better since then, but it really is something that needs looking into. Well, we're going to talk

more about it tomorrow at 10am. I do hope you'll join me. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I wanted to speak to the souls of a million strangers. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I actually started crying. Leading artistic figures reveal the influences

that inspired their own creativity. Wow. I'm John Wilson, and we've had over 100 guests on the show so far, including Niall Rogers and Zadie Smith. I wanted to read everything without borders. Andrew Scott. If you miss out the sense of the absurd, then you're missing such a major part of what makes human beings wonderful.

I felt like I could be seen and affect people. Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. It's like the beating of your heart. That's why I love it so much. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there

who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.