Woman's Hour - Gisele Pelicot mass rape trial verdicts, Venture capitalist, Ballet Shoes

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

The verdicts have been handed down in the mass rape trial that has truly shocked and appalled people in France and around the world where 51 men stood accused of raping Gisele Pelicot. One of these men is Gisele's now ex-husband Dominique Pelicot, who has been convicted of drugging and raping his wife of 50 years - and inviting dozens of others to rape her over nearly a decade. He has been sentenced to 20 years in prison. Anita Rani spoke to BBC correspondent Chris Bockman and French feminist campaigner Blandine Deverlanges, both outside the court in Avignon.Venture Capitalist Nell Daly is on a mission to invest in female entrepreneurs. She has launched a £50 million investment fund here in the UK to support those who normally don’t get a seat at the finance table. She joins Anita to talk about women in business.Noel Streatfield’s classic children’s book Ballet Shoes was written in 1936, and had never been staged - until now. The National Theatre’s production of Ballet Shoes is directed by Katy Rudd and tells the story of the three Fossil sisters, Pauline, Petrova and Posy, who were given their name because they were all “discovered” as babies on the travels of adventurer Great Uncle Matthew and then abandoned to his Great Niece Sylvia, or Garnie, played by Pearl Mackie. Anita is joined by Katy and Pearl to discuss this children's classic.Have you ever spent Christmas alone by choice? Why did you decide to spend it this way - and what did you do? That's what the best selling author and Daily Mail agony aunt, Jane Green, is doing this year. It's the first Christmas since her divorce and she's spending it alone, several thousand miles away from home. She joins me now. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. It's a really special treat to see a magical show over Christmas and the National Theatre in London have nailed it this year with the first ever stage adaptation of Ballet Shoes, Noel Stretfield's 1936 novel. Director Katie Rudd and star Pearl Mackey will be here to tell us all about it.

Now, when it comes to women running businesses, getting investments, the stats are appalling, less than 2%. Well, one woman is on a mission to change this by setting up a £50 million fund. Jane Green decided to leave her marriage after 18 years at the age of 55 and is spending Christmas doing something that involves none of her family. She's going it alone for an alternative Christmas in Marrakesh. No Christmas cooking, no family, no stress and she'll be telling us all about it. But how about you? Are you chucking out the traditions to do something completely different this year? How has your choice gone down with your family and friends?

If you are having an alternative Christmas or have had one in the past, tell me about it this morning. What are you doing this year on Christmas Day? Are you trying something new? Going out for lunch instead of the stress of entertaining extended family, the ones you don't even like?

Are you eating dim sum for breakfast or will you be drinking pina coladas on the beach? Tell me about your alternative Christmas this morning, both real or even fantasy. The text number to get in touch is 84844. You can email us through our website. You can also contact us on WhatsApp and even leave a voicemail. The number is 03700 100 444. That text number, once again, is 84844. But first, the verdicts have been handed down in the mass rape trial

that has truly shocked and appalled people in France and around the world, where 51 men stood accused of raping Giselle Pellico. One of these men is her now ex-husband, Dominique Pellico, who has been convicted of drugging and raping his wife for 50 years and inviting dozens of others to rape her over nearly a decade. He's been sentenced today to 20 years in prison. We can cross live now to BBC correspondent Chris Bachman, who is joining us from outside the court in Avignon

and has been following events as they've been unfolding this morning. And to remind listeners that this is a disturbing case and you may find some of the details upsetting. Good morning, Chris. So start by telling us what happened in court today. Indeed, well, as there has been most days in this three-and-a-half-month trial, there were a lot of women in particular who had banners saying,

lock them up, and also there was a lot of people showing their support for Giselle, and when she arrived, there was a lot of cheers for her, there was a police escort for her as well, and then, of course, the verdict and the sentencing happened for all 50 um 70 in all are believed to have abused of her and 20 are still at large and haven't been found but for the others the sentencing the verdicts and they've all been coming in he received them as the ring leader he received the maximum 20 years for rape and also for organizing what happened to his ex-wife for over a 10-year period.

And what did the judge have to say about Dominique Pellico? He hasn't said very much. Basically, he just laid out the verdict and said it was aggravated rape and also aggravated rape of another woman. There's so many stories within the stories some of the men who came and who saw the unconscious Giselle Pellico asked her husband how did you actually put her to sleep what kind of tablets did you use what kind of sleeping pills and then they did the same thing with their own partners and invited Dominique Pellico to their house to do the same thing with their own partners and so the judge said that he was also taking into account what he'd done with other women as well so um very brief sentences

and then basically that the sentences were given for all 50 and as far as we can tell we have a great correspondent in the courtroom laura gozzi and she's telling us so far we don't think there's anyone who's come out without um a guilty verdict of some sort can you tell us a bit about the different sorry different verdicts and the sentences that have been given for example some came and i'm hoping that people understand who are listening in some for penetration some came in and there wasn't sexual penetration some couples showed up and thought this doesn't look right and they left left. So they would get lower sentences. However, even though they said it didn't look right, none of them actually bothered to go to the authorities and say this doesn't seem to be correct.

So that's why some got lighter ones. Some of them got much bigger ones because they came back several times and raped Giselle Petticoat. One thing you should know as well is that some of them engaged in very dangerous sexual activity because none of them used condoms, and that was an order from her ex-husband and she's actually been infected with several sexually transmitted diseases. On top of that she's also quite ill because having really tough sleeping pills given to her over a 10-year period has had a massive effect on her health. And the sentences are approximately two years lower than the prosecutors wanted. I think the reason why, and we'll get more from this from the lawyers who are coming out and we'll be talking to the media, is that some of them said, look, we were actually set up, we were framed. We came over thinking this was casual sex, that these were swingers and we had permission from Dominique Pellicot.

And so the judges, I think, are going to take into account that they should have got consent from Giselle Pellicot. They didn't, but maybe they were kind of intimidated and framed a little bit by him. And so that's why maybe the sentencing is slightly less than the 20 that he's getting. And we'll get more on that soon but what is key here of course is the issue of consent they said they had permission from the husband but none of them questioned whether you know she agreed or not and if that's why the whole issue here is explicit consent and that didn't cross any of their minds at all amongst these 50 defendants.

Has there been a reaction from Giselle Pellico so far? It's rumoured that she will give a statement. Yeah, we thought so. And at the same time I'm talking to you, I'm talking to our correspondent, well, getting reaction from our correspondent who's in the court. She's supposed to be speaking with her lawyers to us for the first time. We understand that she's gone into a a side room with the lawyers maybe they're discussing you know just breathing taking a bit of fresh air deciding what to do now we expect she will talk but for the time being she hasn't and chris can you give us just a sense of the atmosphere there yeah a charged atmosphere um i wouldn't say it was tense a lot of police as well but it's not tense but it's charged it's emotional especially for a lot of these women who've come supporting you for so long you have to as well but it's not tense but it's charged it's emotional especially for a lot of these women who've come supporting you for so long you have to admit i mean it's incredibly

brave action by someone giselle like i said first of all she thought four years ago and it's another kind of part of the whole bigger story she said four years ago he was the perfect husband the perfect father four years on um her health is in terrible because of what he did to her um she's got infected diseases her own daughter and daughter-in-law were also filmed in suggestive uh poses in even though they're um dominic says that he know there was no sexual conduct against them but we don't know that because he said a lot of things have turned out to be untrue. But basically, her life is in ruins.

And so the bravery in knowing that all this was filmed as well, she wants to turn this into some sort of wider cause. And she's working to help other women and also get onto the agenda, this idea of explicit consent. Chris, thank you so much. We're also joined now by a French feminist campaigner, Blondine Devalange, who's outside the court in Avignon. Blondine, thank you for joining us. You've been following

this case. You're outside the court. You've been outside the court throughout the trial. What's your reaction to the verdicts? I'm very sad because justice was not given to Gisèle today. Of course, Dominique Pellicot obtained 20 years, but it was the minimum.

But many rapists will go free to their home tonight, and it's just unbearable as a feminist, as a woman. I cannot understand why Dutch justice doesn't understand that women are human beings too. I mean, this is such a huge case. It's all eyes on it around the world. What does this say about what the French system thinks about rape? I think that the French system is patriarchal and that the judges understand what is going to make a man a rapist, but they don't understand what it does to women to be raped.

You can hear just right now the rapists are going out because they are free. And you hear they are just behind me. What's happening just behind you, if you could explain? Explain where you are and who is around you. I'm just in front of the court and some rapists are going free right now because they have been sentenced to very few years in prison. So now they can go free out. And people are very, very upset.

What are the conversations taking place? What are women saying to you there? They say, shame, shame on you, shame on you. She made a crucial decision. Giselle Pellico made a crucial decision when she waived her right to anonymity. I mean, we cannot even begin to imagine the strength of character it takes to make that decision. She said at the time that shame must change sides. Do you feel that shame has changed sides today? Today, no, it didn't happen. You know, when the men came this morning in the court, they were with their fingers, they showed us how they were proud to be

rapists and now they are going out and they are free and it's just, as a feminist, it's just unbearable for me. You know, they are very proud of what they did. It's unbearable. So what will be the focus of your campaign now? Now we are going to make changes and if women don't obtain justice, we are going to make justice. In what way? We are going to organise, but it's not possible to let rapists just to be free right now. What do you think happens next for Giselle Pellico? I don't know. I think she has to be shared to rest right now

because these four months were so horrible. And these four years, it was so upsetting for her. But right now, I think she needs to have a quiet time, Christmas time with her family. And what she now has to do is to have her own life for herself. She doesn't belong to us, you know. She has to be free. Yeah, what do you think this sentencing will mean to her?

I don't know. I think she must be sad but maybe relieved that it's all finished because she was every day during four months with 50 rapists in the same room. It was just horrifying. Now it's finished. If you just stay there, Blondine, I just want to go back to Chris. Chris, can we just clarify what's happening about men going free? Yeah, I think I should clarify that. Basically, about 20 of the men who've been on trial have actually been in custody. And so basically, their sentences takes into account the time they've already spent in prison. And so because they've spent a couple of years in jail, their sentences, basically, the time they've been waiting for the trial takes into account the sentence. That's why they're being freed.

So Blondine, can I ask what it was? Yes, Chris, sorry. So the ones clearly who've had the highest sentencing between 12 and 13, 14 years, they're going straight from the court to prison. But the ones who've been, you know, because a lot of them were 20 of the 50 were held in custody throughout the trial, either because they had a criminal record previously or there was fear that they might go on the run. So because they've spent time in jail, that's why they're being freed. So people are walking out of the court this morning.

What was it like when they were walking into the few? Blondine, when people were walking into the court this morning, what was the reaction like? People were shouting at them. As you can hear right now, they were shouting and they were saying, we want justice, just as you can hear right now. All the justice, shame to the justice. Justice has to be ashamed now because it was not justice.

It was ridiculous. Blondine de Valange, thank you for joining us this morning and our BBC correspondent Chris Bachman. You can find full coverage of this story throughout the day on BBC News online live pages. 84844 is the number to text. You are getting in touch with your messages this morning about an alternative Christmas and lots of your messages are coming in because lots of you are doing different things. My alternative Christmas did not end well.

We decided to ditch the turkey and inspired by peak Jamie Oliver, make a nice homemade pasta. Instead of delicious artisan tagliatelle, we ended up with a giant congealed ball of pasta which resembled an alien's head and had to be carved it's still mentioned by the in-laws every year another message here saying I am single 40 something year old woman and have found going back to my parents for Christmas increasingly depressing so this year I was finally brave enough to do something different and booked a trip to northern Finland. I'll be leading my own team of huskies on a tour into the wilderness. It was difficult to tell my family,

but they've been generally supportive of my decision. I just desperately needed to do something different. So I'm trying not to let the guilt override my excitement. No guilt, surely no guilt. Do what you like. 84844 is the number to text. Now, research from 2023 found that startups founded solely by women raised just a meagre 1.8% of the total capital invested in venture-backed startups. Well, my next guest is someone who's on a mission to change this. Originally heralding from New York, venture capitalist Nell Daly is launching a £50 pound fund to back female entrepreneurs here in the UK, calling it revenge capital. She's making sure that women aren't only seen, but most definitely heard when

it comes to the future of business growth and investment. Welcome to Woman's Hour now. Thank you for having me, Anita. I think we should go back a little bit to the beginning because you haven't always had a career in finance, have you? No, Where did you start? I started, I actually started in journalism. I have an MFA in creative writing. And then I moved quickly into social work. Actually, you know, interesting, given the story that came out this morning, the impetus for going into social work was because I worked at the Rape Crisis Center at Columbia University. And I found the work so impactful that I decided to go and become a social worker and then on to be a psychotherapist. And also started working as a commentator. I did. Yeah. On Fox News. Yes, I did.

So how did you go from that into Venture Capitalist? Because your life completely changed, didn't it? Yeah. Something happened to you personally? Yeah, I think, well, a few things kind of came together. But I think when you sit in a room for 10 years with women, and you realize that so much of their depression and anxiety stem from being in toxic relationships, because they don't have the financial capability to leave those relationships, you think, maybe there's something I could do beyond being a clinical psychotherapist to change the dynamic of what we're seeing in society to help women in their mental health and make them less vulnerable. And anyone who sees those statistics, I mean, $145 million in the

first half of 2024 was invested into the UK economy through venture capital. And so if you think about what the number is, if only 1.8% of women got that, and I didn't see the number changing year after year, and it stayed stagnant for a decade. I mean, the most we ever get is 3%. And by the way, that's not just the UK, it's also the US. So I thought, something needs to change here. And maybe I have the skill set and the network to be able to do it. That's a big decision, big change. Yes. And it's also a profound observation based on your years of working with women in therapy

that actually if we can give them a bit more financial power, that that might give them a bit more agency. Yes. Yeah. I'm obsessed with the idea of self-agency for anybody, human self-expression. And we can't really get there if we don't have money. And we also, there's always, I always tell people there's a plan and there's a secret plan. So the plan was, how can you take people who have been traditionally marginalized and help grow their wealth so they

have more power? So the secret plan is, again, that they would end up having more power through having successful businesses and then being able to either enter or support candidates who believe in their own political beliefs or change the justice system. But you also had, this is personal for you as well, because you lost your own power at one point, didn't you? You'd moved back in with your mother. You're a single mom with three children. Tell me a bit about that time in your life. Yeah, I got divorced when my kids were quite young, which was unusual. And I ended up staying in social work. And I think anybody who's been a psychotherapist or done a health services related job, it's really a vocation. You don't go into it for the money. You go into it because you believe in the calling. And so I stayed in that job for a long time. And you don't make much

money as a social worker, even if you're a private psychotherapist. So I moved in with my mother. And eventually, she was an oncology nurse, she actually got sick with cancer, and she was still working full time in her 70s at the hospital when she was diagnosed. And so I watched as she slowly, you know, fell very sick to cancer and died two years later. And at the point where she died, I thought, OK, you have this moment in your life where are you really going to live or are you going to sort of fall apart under the adversity that you're facing? And again, if you're a psychotherapist, you're always preaching to people to remain optimistic, to keep it up. And so I doubled down on myself and I thought I'm never going to be able to pay for my kids to go to college if I stay as a social worker. And I'm going to actually do sort of what I had been feeling to be called to do for the last few years and go into venture capital, which I had no idea how to do. So how did you do it? I mean, I literally I love the idea.

You know, I'm a radio presenter today, a venture capitalist. How did you Google it? But you're a journalist. So you're obsessed with the story, right? We are narrative driven people. We love to hear stories. We're actually naturally curious people. And so I also just kind of being in New York

and from New York, I just kind of called the BS that you can't learn things. I didn't understand that. And then I think that traditionally, especially in finance with men, I always felt like there was like a secret language they were speaking and we don't really know it as women. And in my generation, we weren't encouraged to major in economics or finance. And so I just thought, no, this is not that difficult. This

cannot be like performing brain surgery. And by the way, if I try, no one's going to die on the table. So why not try it? And so I gave myself during COVID, really an MBA. And I did it through just working with a bunch of guys, raising a fund, and giving myself an education through Google. So you had to get to go to guys to get the fund? You know, the first not this one, not revenge, but the first my first kind of entree into it. Revenge is the name of your fund. Revenge is, yeah, revenge is the name. I wanted to be provocative.

I was tired of the field being boring and it felt very boring to me. Not so much venture as much as just private equity and banking in general. And that's in part because the creative around it is very male dominated and there's not enough diversity around the, just even sort of getting the messaging out. So, yeah, I think that the reality still is that men are great bridges to helping women get ahead. And so I had one man who I had met through a series of introductions who said, I think you'd be good at raising capital. This was in my plan already. And he gave me a shot. So it was a man that stepped forward to give you the shot. It was.

You asked for 10 million. Yes. So that was the first fund. forward to give you the shot? It was. You asked for 10 million? Yes. So that was the first fund. The second fund that I'm on now, yes, it was also a man who during a lunch, I was trying to source capital in the UK specifically for a beauty founder, and I couldn't find any money for her. Is there some sense of irony that even if you're investing in all female businesses with this fund, that it will ultimately be a man who will be making more money at the top of the tree? No, because we split the profits of the fund 50-50. So you got a good deal. Yeah, exactly.

I got a very, yeah, 100%. And he was all about that from the very beginning, that this is not going to be something that you, you're not working for me. This is going to be something that we do together. Why do you think that so few female-led businesses get investment? What's the problem? It's a great question. I mean, historic discrimination.

And is it inconvenient? It's very, very convenient. Anita, if we don't fund women, we keep women in a position where they're doing all the invisible labor in our society. So why would we fund them? Right? It keeps the system going. I mean, let's be honest here. I think there's a motherhood bias. I think that there's

not enough women who are investors at the table making the decisions to back other women. And the sad thing is... Did you try and find female investors for your fund? You know, it happened so serendipitously that I hadn't actually gone out to market. But I think if I had, it would have been very, very difficult. And I think it's interesting, the question you just asked. So oftentimes, we go to approach anybody for financing, whether it's for another female founder, and or yourself, and they say as a woman, and they say, I think I know a woman in Silicon Valley who has an aunt who made money and invests in women. Can you ever imagine the opposite conversation happening with a man?

So a man comes to the table and says, I'm looking for money. And I turn to him and say, I think I know a guy in Chicago who might invest in men. It just doesn't even happen. So I've had to reeducate a lot of people, whether that's in the U.S US or in Europe, to stop saying that. Like, we cannot continue to say that, that, oh, I think there's a woman who invests in other women. It's like, no, people should invest in women. People should invest in people who have been traditionally discriminated against, in part because it's good business. If you invest in a female-led team, you're 35% more likely to get your investment back on your return. So a return

back on your investment. Money talks. Money talks. And so our thesis, and I firmly believe this, is that our fund will be more successful because we're looking for diverse founders. And I think it's going to be more inventive and more disruptive and more interesting what we have in our portfolio because we're looking at subcultures. Yeah. So who are you looking for? What's the fund? Who's the fund set up to support? The fund is set up to support definitely women. But again, people who have been underestimated or overlooked. We're real champions for the underdogs. So the LGBT community, the BAME community in the UK. We're looking at disabled founders or people solving problems for the disabled community. We're anti-ageist.

We're anti-classist. And I don't care where you went to school. I don't care if you went to school. If you have a good idea, I want to hear it. And I think that goes back to the sort of psychotherapy piece, which is when you don't get to act upon your dreams, it really eats away at your soul. And how many people in the UK or the US feel underemployed or underutilized, or have this longing, a real longing of the soul to achieve

something, but constantly face barriers to that achievement. And I saw that eat away at people and really deteriorate someone's mental health. And it made me enormously sad over 10 years as a psychotherapist. And if there was something I could do to change that I was going to. So you've set up a global fund, you've got this investment of 50 million. Why set it up in the UK? My network was in the UK, it has been in the UK for the last five years. And why not? One of the things that happens if you're a founder from the UK is that you go to look for investment, there's not much investment pool here. And then you go over to the U.S., but U.S. venture funds won't invest in U.K. businesses. They just won't invest cross-globally.

There's only a handful that will. And I was noticing this, especially in the consumer space, which was interesting because so many investors want to invest in tech, and you find this a lot in the U.K. And that's not really fair to women because women haven't always been tracked to go into tech. And women are founders you know, founders of really good consumer businesses. So I wanted to be cross global. And that was one of my mandates

that we had to be able to do cross global investments. What's the difference between the UK and the US? Are we more excluded here? I think it's hard. I definitely think that it's a I definitely think raising capital in the UK is more difficult than it is in the US 100%. And I think that's just one of the basic things that happens in the US is that people are used to that kind of venture investing. We're used to taking risk. We're very optimistic. We're very quick to write checks. It's a very different kind of just inherited culture here. There's a legacy that's different here in terms of being an entrepreneur. Well, it's just something as simple as what you said to me over a cup of tea this morning when you said, yeah, I've got 50 million in it, but I want to raise a billion dollars. And I said to you, what an American thing to say. It's that optimism.

Yeah. And I actually, it didn't occur to me until I was on the taxi over here that everyone is celebrating this. And it is a big deal in the UK. And I don't want to downplay that. And I think that some of the things that are coming out with the Invest in Women's Task Force is really interesting. I think they've soft circled. I was at House of Lords on Monday and they are Tuesday morning and they've soft circled or secured $255 million so far to help more women become investors. So those women will then invest in other women

founders. But $50 million is not a lot of money compared to the global market and how much goes into VC. Can I ask you something personal about you? You've come here, you've told us your remarkable story, you've managed to, you know, through your own tenacity and your acumen and your bravery as well, that you've got this set up and you're sitting here telling me about this fund. What about fear, your own fear, that you're taking a big risk here? And tell me what you think the risk is. Well, I don't know. I mean, you've got some, you've got 50 million pounds of someone else's money that you're taking a chance on, for starters. I think we're taking a chance on each other for sure. Listen, you just need a few winners in that. And I'm willing to take that. I'm willing to take that risk. It is absolutely essential that we are able to create more economic opportunities for people who have been discriminated against in order to change political systems, regardless of who you vote for. You want to have

power in society. And so many people have been disempowered. And so I'm willing to take that risk. I'm willing to, you know, hang myself on the line for that. And what a better way to live. I mean, I can't imagine. And again, when we have a billion dollar fund, and again, I think the investment thesis will end up being more successful than other funds. And we are creating a very diverse team to make those investments into diverse founders. It's been fascinating speaking to you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me.

Thank you. That was Nell Daly, who has just launched her own fund to invest in people who wouldn't normally get investing in. So get in touch with her, I suppose. 84844 is the number to text. Now, here's something we'd love for you, our listeners, to get involved in.

The other day, the 34-year-old actor Aaron Taylor-Johnson was snapped on the red carpet with his wife, Sam, and her adult daughters, the oldest of whom is 27. The hashtag same age as stepdaughter has since been trending on TikTok and we want to talk about it and hear from you. Is this something you've experienced? Are you close in age to your stepchild or maybe your partner is close in age to your child? What are the benefits and challenges you found? We'd love to hear from you. The text number 84844 or WhatsApp us on 03700100444 or social media. It's at BBC.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. The Woman's Hour. Now, Noel Stretfield's classic children's book, Ballet Shoes, was written in 1936 and remarkably for a best-selling novel set in the world of theatre and ballet, had never been staged until now. The National Theatre's production of Ballet Shoes is directed by Katie Rudd and tells the

story of the three fossil sisters, Pauline, Petrova and Posey, who were given their names because they were all discovered as babies on the travels of adventurer Great Uncle Matthew and then abandoned to his great niece Sylvia or Garnie, played by Pearl Mackey. Let's hear a bit. We three fossils vow to distinguish our name so that we can make our own futures in the absence of a past and so that we can make a lot of money to take care of ourselves and everyone we know. And in five or 20 or 100 million years from now,

when they talk about us in the history books, no one will say it's because of our grandfathers. We vow. Well, I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Katie and Pearl. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. First of all, I went to see, I love a Christmas production. It's one of my traditions to go and see something quite magical.

This is possibly one of the best I've seen. I'm just going to put it out there. It was absolutely perfect. Katie, why did you choose to adapt this? I read Ballet Shoes as a child. It was a really important book to me. I loved it. I loved the I loved the

characters the three sisters um and I was sort of inspired about this group of girls who were growing up in a house of dinosaur bones and fossils sort of you know as a child reading that just ignited my imagination and um yeah just I just found it a really important book and then years later had sort of remembered it was talking about it with the adapter Kendall Fever and we realized it had never been staged we couldn't believe it and then started talking about adapting it and here we are here we are yeah I think we should just give people an overview because, you know, I had never come across it. So just briefly give us the story. Yeah. Well, yeah, as you said, it's about the fossil sisters who are discovered as babies by their great uncle, Matthew, who's a paleontologist and just ends up finding these three babies and taking them home. And he then leaves them with his great niece, Sylvia,

who I play, and their nana. And the house is full of fossils and bones, but it's also kind of falling down. So Garnie and Nana are kind of desperately trying to hold it together. And they have to take in some lodgers as a kind of means to maintaining the house and giving the family some financial support. And these lodgers kind of become mentors for the girls.

One of them works at a dance school and one of the girls, Posy, wants to be a ballerina. So they all end up going to this amazing dance school and discovering their passions. And one of the lodgers owns a car and one of the girls, Petrova, is really interested in mechanics and wants to, you know, sort of explores that with him. And there's just sort of a really lovely story about found family and about kind of, I don't know, I think it's really modern in the way that it's about girls like chasing their dreams

and aspirations kind of against all odds, even though it's written in 1936. Exactly, incredibly ahead of its time, I think it's really modern in the way that it's about girls like chasing their dreams and aspirations kind of against all odds, even though it's written in 1936. Exactly. Incredibly ahead of its time, I think. And why had you come? Did you know the story before? I did. Yeah. Yeah. It was a book that my mom gave me when when I was younger. She was I mean, I was pretty over the moon when I got the job, but she was happier than I was. Why do you think it's remained in print for so long uh i think i i think it just has a universality to it you know timelessness to it these girls i mean noel strepfield was encouraging these young girls to be ambitious and to make art and for themselves and nobody and and to to um yeah be sort of create their own futures

that's a kind of groundbreaking idea in the 30s and now yeah it's and it's i think that's what's so powerful about the story isn't it it's like it's so modern in its outlook um you know it's sort of feminist before feminism even existed yeah right yeah but it's like it's such, it's sort of feminist before feminism even existed. Yeah, absolutely. But it's like, it's such an important message to give to young girls and young people in general anyway, like even now. And I think that's the reason that it's still so universally loved. It's modern, it's ahead of its time, but you have definitely modernised it, which we will talk about the bits and pieces that you've done.

But there was a moment when it all switched for me. It's like, you kind of get the backstory you get the build-up we learn who all the characters are and then the girls and Garnie who are living in this like as you say sort of genteel poverty in 1940s London living on what is a Cromwell Road so living in the west um um and they they get together and they make a promise and a mission statement to each other and they say try it we try and put our names in the history books because it's our very own. And nobody can say it's because of our grandfathers. They're not taking their father's or their grandfather's name.

Quite a mission statement. It's incredible. You know, it's so powerful for girls or anyone actually to go, let's do it for ourselves. Sisterhood. And these girls are adopted. They're not related, but they are family. And they're creating a future together. And that is an incredibly powerful message for us today.

Yeah. And let's talk about your character. You play Garnie. I do. She's essentially a young parent of some very challenging teenagers. Yeah. I mean, she was 12 when the first baby handed over to her. You know, I mean, that's pretty pretty young how did you approach the character um well I think for me I I just really I found it

so interesting the way that she became a mother kind of without her choosing but I mean she obviously loves the girls so desperately but she didn't really have much of a childhood um you know sort of having to be a mother to you know three children by the age of 16 is is quite full-on yeah it's pretty full-on yeah it's growing up quite fast um and I think the the thing that really drew me to her was that she really desperately wants to protect the girls and wants them to have this childhood that she never had access to. And, you know, I mean, maybe all the decisions that she makes aren't necessarily the right ones. And I think there's kind of a beautiful rite of passage for her by the end of the story,

learning that, you know, she has done quite a good job, but the girls do want to help and that they are people within their own right. And they are older than she was when she first sort of started taking responsibility for them. And I think her kind of letting them into the family struggles and letting them kind of help and take care of each other is a really big moment, but is something that's beautiful and I think something that probably most parents can relate to. Yeah, what you do magnificently, Katie Katie and through the writing and through the direction is that

every single character is given such depth and such backstory you know it's a theatre production you're there to have a great time but somehow we are so invested in every character and with you I was desperate for you to have a childhood I thought yeah she just didn't have one she turned up as an orphan to this great uncle who disappeared. Great line, by the way. He's only able to do it because he has women to be able to support him. I mean, totally, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that is the only reason he's able to go off on this adventure. I don't know if that's acknowledged in the book. It is in the book, yeah. This is the house of these stoical, strong women, something I really identified with. Go on, in what way? Well, just having these matriarchs who bring up these children and are inspiring and doing what they can,

the best they can, for these young people. And that's definitely something I can relate to and it was really important that we held on to that. And as you say, that all these characters coming to this house were fleshed out and had immense pain. They're sort of all people thrown together who find family together. And that is a really beautiful idea and important for young people to see, I think. Yes, you're right. There is immense pain as an undercurrent, isn't there?

Yeah, definitely. And I think the whole the found family element is something that I personally related to as well. I mean, I think like, you know, friendship is such an amazing thing. And I mean, my friends are my family. And I think it's such an important thing for young people to look at family, not in just a traditional setup, because, you know, especially for me as a queer woman as well, you know, there's so many queer people out there who aren't able to connect with their family due to for many reasons but also you know there's sometimes you just don't have that much in common with your family and you find your people and that finding that acceptance and finding that love in places that you didn't know it would exist is such a magical thing and I think it's so hopeful yeah definitely it's the perfect message around Christmas time as well when you know even though it's a time of great joy and festivities also can be a very lonely time if you don't have the support of your family around you. Some of the themes which are quite subtle in the novel are more explicit in your production in the book Mrs Jakes as a female companion in the play she identifies as a lesbian. We also know that the girls were adopted from

around the world but in the novel the characters were In the play, they're ethnically diverse. Why did you make those decisions? It just felt like it was important to be able to excavate the fact that Jakes was a lesbian and say that loudly and proudly on the Olivier stage felt like a really important thing to do. And it also gave her more of a reason to be in that house and to need that family the fact it explained to the audience you know it's just subtle in the book it is there but it's subtle but we can say it so why not um yeah it was an important moment for me because I went I took my six-year-old niece to watch it

who is such a wriggler but she sat throughout the whole thing and was just entranced by it. And I thought, how brilliant. How brilliant that this is what she's experiencing in this play. Yeah. Tell me about how you approached casting. Well, I just cast the best possible actors I could find. Of course. And three amazing women who came in to look for those roles

and who identified with those characters. It's written so they could be from anywhere, these adopted daughters. And I found the best possible people for it. And they're wonderful, aren't they? Yeah, I mean, they're absolutely amazing. But I mean, essentially, the way the story is written, they aren't white. Yeah, they're only white because it was written in the 1930s and published in London, because that was that was sort of, you know, I think the reality of it, you know, being found on the Russian Mongolian border. It's like, you know, there's no, exactly. And I think that's something for me that is really, really important about this production. You know, it's not just the girls and myself. They're like the whole company is actually one of the most diverse companies that I've ever worked with, which I think is so important in a family show.

You know, it's not just showing little white children that their dreams are reality can become reality. It's showing children of all ethnic backgrounds that you can achieve what you want. And look, look, look what's in front of you. This is amazing. And this is you. This could be you if you want. But also go out and do what you want to do.

Exactly. Yes. Again, great message from my little six-year-old niece who was sitting next to me. Loads of dancing. Yeah. I mean, it's a proper Christmassy show. Really feel good.

I actually left singing, by the way. Ah, did you? I did. How did you approach the balance between you know the directing the play and the choreography yeah um well we I really wanted the play to have be set in the 30s but have a kind of modern lens over it and so worked with uh choreographer Ellen Kane on the choreography and we want so it has a lot of 1930s swing dancing and like but then it also has modern movement in it as well bits of street influences from lots of other places so that it kind of is creating a kind of fusion. It feels youthful yeah I think when the girls dance it's such a fun thing the moment when Miss Theo Dane comes into their house and they're sort of introduced to dancing and music and the dance that they do

is so it's got it's it's classic but it's got such modern influences that I think it's so relatable for like young audiences it's so fun and it's really like it's funny as well it kind of makes you laugh but they're really like expressing themselves in a kind of modern fusion kind of way. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And actually in each one of the characters' dances, according to their personalities, the dances are really... And Petrova's not very good at dancing.

And that was kind of important to me too, that there was an element of like, you don't have to be brilliant. You don't have to be the best to get to enjoy something like dance. And you get to dance as well, Pearl. Yes. How was that?

Oh, really fun. Yeah, I mean, I danced a little bit when I was younger. And I don't have to dance as much as the amazing ensemble doing this. But we do get to do, myself and Sid Sagar, who plays Jai Saran, do get to do a pretty hilarious dinosaur dance not to give anything away if anyone hasn't seen it yet but he's great oh he's so brilliant isn't he so fun the whole cast the whole cast absolutely every single element was fantastic you've previously said Katie that you love making theatre for young people is ballet shoes for young people it's not

just for young people it's for everyone I'd say um I think it's for people who read the book people who haven't read the book it's for what's wonderful is seeing people of all generations sitting in that auditorium laughing and crying and having a really kind of good time um I cried I shed a tear and on that and being in the audience just to give you the perspective what I found delightful and unusual although you are why I'm seeing it more and more is the diversity in the theatre yeah at the National because of the diversity on stage yeah I think it's that again it's so important isn't it it's like you know if we if we make stories only for white people with white people in them,

then obviously the audience is going to be predominantly white people. But I think it's so nice seeing the diversity. Yeah, because we get to sort of come out at the beginning of the show. So sort of always have a little look around. But yeah, you see diversity in age, diversity in ethnicity. And yeah, and the most important thing is everyone's just having a great time. Yes. I have to say, Pearl, can't have you on without congratulating you on getting married this year. Oh, thank you so much. How is married life?

Yeah, it's pretty great, actually. Yeah, we're just approaching our first Christmas as wives, which is quite exciting. Mainly just looking forward to sitting on the sofa. Yeah, what are you going to do? We've been asking people about alternative Christmases. Well, I've got a few days off from the show which is almost unheard of so yeah my wife has been working really really hard at the moment as well but she's got the same days off so we're planning to spend two days pretty much just chilling on the sofa eating mince pies

and watching telly but then yeah going to spend some time with family which should be lovely and how about you Katie yeah I'm with the family I've got a two-year-old and a six-year-old, so we'll be busy and up at four, I'm sure. I'm having presents. And thinking about projects for next year, what can we expect? Yeah, I'm working on an adaptation of Nanny McPhee, which is exciting. And yeah, various other things in pipeline, yeah.

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. It really is a beautiful Christmas treat. Katie Rhodes and Pearl Mackey and Ballet Shoes will run at the National Theatre until the 22nd of February. So it's got a nice long run to it. Now, have you ever spent Christmas alone by choice?

Why did you decide to spend it this way? And what did you do? Well, that's what the bestselling author and Daily Mail agony aunt Jane Green is doing this year. It's the first Christmas since her divorce, and she's spending it alone several thousand miles away from home. And she joins me now to tell us more. Welcome, Jane. Thank you. So tell us what Christmas usually looks like in your household.

Usually, we have always had six children at home, an annual Christmas Eve party, where I always end up saying next year, it's going to be really small. And then everyone I run into, I say, oh, pop in, pop in. And the world comes and stays all night. And, you know, we wake up on Christmas morning and we make a big breakfast and we open presents. And then we sit down for the Christmas meal, probably late afternoon. Yeah, so it's family, it's fun, friends, it's festive. It's roaring log fires because I lived in New England in America for 24 years. So sometimes there was snow and it was my favorite, favorite holiday of the year. So what changed? Well, I got divorced and my marriage broke up in January, New Year's Day, actually.

New Year's Day, actually. New Year's Day of this year. My divorce came through in October. And I don't have a home. I actually left the States. I'm from London. But I left the States. I'd written a book that was set in Marrakesh,

and I'd fallen madly in love with Marrakesh. And I decided that it was calling me. It was your decision to leave the marriage after 18 years, right? It was my decision to leave the marriage. Yeah. And I think I felt like many women my age in their 50s whose children have left home, suddenly you look around and you realise that you have slightly become ships that pass

in the night. And it felt, I mean, there were many reasons, but amongst them, it seemed very clear that we wanted very different things out of life. Yeah, it happens. Lots of things happen. So you decided to go, you've written a book set in Marrakesh. Writing a book about marrakesh and deciding to spend christmas alone there two very different things go on tell us about the thought process you could have stuck around in america you could have seen your kids kids and all that you know but you what switched yeah i could have done all of those things um i i felt very much after all that time in america actually i felt i felt the pull of home, home being England.

And even though I'm not in England, I have the ability to hop back and forth and see my family and see my friends. But I felt the real pull of home during the pandemic, actually. I suddenly realized that when we were all on lockdown, the people that I craved were my oldest friends. People that I might speak to once in a while and I see once or twice a year, but I wanted them around me. At a time when I felt very unsafe, that was where I suddenly realized I was looking to my oldest friends for comfort. And so I feel like I'm being pulled back to England slowly via Marrakesh. So what's the plan? What's the Christmas plan this year?

The Christmas plan is, first of all, it doesn't feel Christmassy at all because obviously it's a Muslim country. The big resort hotels have done Christmas, but you would have no idea that it's Christmas just, you know, walking through the streets, not a wreath. If you see red and green, it's the Moroccan flag. And was that important for it not to feel Christmassy? No, I miss Christmas terribly, but I think I felt like if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to blow up my life, I have to commit to it. And that sort of means, yeah, I'm going to see what this is and see what this feels like.

And can I do it? Am I strong enough to do this? And I will say the caveat is that my children phoned a few days ago, and two of my kids have decided to come to London after Christmas. So of course, I'm now going to be seeing them because I'm going to go to London and see my kids. But it feels very weird. I'm spending Christmas Day with new friends, really like them very, very much. But it's not the same as being with with family and being with orphans and by the way that's the other sort of thing that you don't anticipate when you get divorced is that even if you have all your kids around you it's not the same as having an intact family where the children are coming home and they're running upstairs and dumping their stuff

in their own bedrooms and it's just I don't think it's ever going to be quite the same. So new friends as well. Yeah. So it's quite a risk. No, I have to say, Jane, I'm totally into this idea. I'm with you. I have actually spent, can I share this with you? I've spent Christmas Day in Morocco.

I have done that. I've spent it in the Atlas Mountains, Christmas morning, woken up, surrounded by the Atlas Mountains. And it was magnificent and incredibly memorable. So I'm fully, and I'm not in the UK for Christmas this year. So I'm totally with you. I mean, we're on the same page. But how have your friends and family reacted? What have they said when you said that you were off to do something on your own? I think that they think I'm very brave, actually. What's really interesting is every time I write about this journey I'm on, which is being middle-aged,

children moving out, feeling untethered and finding myself again, finding who I was before the world told me who I was supposed to be as a wife, as a mother, as a novelist, whatever those things were, getting back to the essence told me who I was supposed to be as a wife, as a mother, as a novelist, whatever those things were, who, getting back to the essence of me, whenever I write about that, I get tons of letters from women who are miserable and who feel stuck and who just say, I wish I had your courage so I I think that my friends think that I'm I'm brave um and probably a you know I and they also hear my sadness because the truth is if I could afford it

of course I'd have a home in America as well a base for the children to come home to that is the hardest thing in the world is is not having a home for my children to come home to. That is the hardest thing in the world is not having a home for my children to come home to yet. I mean, it's a wonderful and a beautiful privilege to be able to book a flight and say, I'm off to spend Christmas with new friends in this wonderfully, you know, wonderful country. What would you say to other people who might be spending their first Christmas alone

after divorce? Because for some people, it might be quite a vulnerable space to be in quite terrifying space as well yeah and um and and actually I I live here now I live in Marrakesh I've been here for a year um so so it's not quite jettison off for a Christmas holiday um but I would I would say if you do find yourself on your own, know that there are many of us. And it's okay to be vulnerable. And it's okay to allow those feelings, the fear and the overwhelm and the loneliness. I would say do all the things that you can to be nice to yourself and the things that you love, whether it's buying

delicious food that you love, whether it's calling friends. It doesn't have to be friends. I've always gathered waifs and strays. And if there are other people around you who are also on their own, bring them together. Watch, find, you know, stream, binge watch series on Netflix that make you feel great. Read books that bring you comfort. I think Christmas is a time of comfort and wherever you can find that, it may not be in the ways that you found it before, but you will find new ways to bring you comfort and actively seek it out. And I think that's the real thing. It's hard work. It's hard work when you're on your own. Everything is hard at work. Life is harder work when you're on your own everything is harder work life

is harder work when you're on your own you're forced it requires that you go out and you meet people and you do things but but it is worth it um because it's all about actually I think a family of choice I know your previous guest talked about this. Correct, yeah. Ballet shoes, chosen family, she said. And I always think of it as family of choice. It's the same thing. I'm going to read out a couple of messages whilst I've got there, Joan. Someone anonymous has said, my first Christmas after separating from my ex-husband and without our daughter,

as it was his turn to have her, I found an old people's charitable society that needed volunteers to serve up a Christmas lunch and ferry them there and back. It was genuinely the loveliest, funniest day. And listening to anecdotes, getting relationship advice from 90-plus-year-olds who've seen it all, were non-judgmental, and having a merry old time was joyous. I went back to my lovely rental, filled with my scatter cushions and candles, changed into my fleece Christmas onesie, and opened a bottle of expensive fizz, ate arty food and watched festive films.

I am now in a wonderful relationship and have had five happy Christmases since, but I still look back with a secret longing for what was the most blissful Christmas day on my terms. Another one here, we're also having without family, friends or stress and i wish that more didn't fall for the guilt that's interesting our young grandchildren are exhausting and frankly the in-laws love a full-on christmas so let them enjoy it we're not religious i stress for weeks about presents food and the perfect christmas that is increasingly impossible to achieve so we're having a beef casserole with dumplings a long walk no no all day drinking and a nice film. Don't feel guilty. Step off the treadmill. How do you deal with the guilt, Jane? Maybe you don't have it.

No, I do. I have tremendous amounts of guilt and I carry it every day right now. But, you know, I also know that part of this journey is about, and I think this is true of so many middle-aged women, we have spent so many years looking after other people. And when the children leave home, it's time to put a little bit of care and love into ourselves. And I think you can, you're never going to get rid of guilt. It's part of being a mother. It's just, it's with us always. But two things can be true at the same time. You can carry guilt and also carry joy at this new life. I think that's a nice bit of advice. And do you think this is going to be a one-off or is it a new tradition for you? Oh, I very much expect, it's

not, it's not natural for me to be on my own. I surround myself with people. I fully expect, I've just, I'm buying a house here. I fully expect that Christmas Eve next year will be back to my annual Christmas Eve party. This time in the sun. Jane, thank you so much for sharing that with us. That's all for me today. Join me tomorrow.

I'm going to be speaking to the actor Daisy Edgar-Jones. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Nicola Coughlan, and for BBC Radio 4, this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion, risk, and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. Twelve stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them. That resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now. Subscribe to History's Youngest Heroes on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.