Woman's Hour - Gisèle Pelicot memoir, Catrin Finch, Ice Hockey mixed teams

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

In December 2024, Dominque Pelicot and 46 other men were found guilty of the aggravated rape of his wife Gisèle. Another two were found guilty of attempted rape and a further two were found guilty of sexual assault. Dominque had drugged Gisèle with medication without her knowledge, raped her and invited other men to rape her, filming as they did so. At least another 20 men who took part in these rapes could not be identified. Waving her right to anonymity, Gisèle Pelicot declared that shame has to change sides. Despite her becoming a household name, not only in her native France but around the world, very little was known about Gisèle herself.Today sees the publication of her much-anticipated memoir, A Hymn to Life. Nuala McGovern is joined by writer and journalist Judith Perrignon, who co-wrote the memoir with Gisèle, and Professor Manon Garcia, who watched the trial in Avignon and analysed its resonance in her book Living with Men, Reflections on the Pelicot Trial. The award-winning internationally renowned Welsh harpist and composer Catrin Finch first came to prominence in her early 20s as the official Royal Harpist to King Charles, the-then Prince of Wales. She achieved chart success with her No. 1 recording of Bach’s Goldberg Variations and has performed with many of the world’s leading orchestras. Catrin, who began playing the harp at just six years old, has a new album, Notes to Self, a series of reflective and deeply personal new tracks she has composed for Katy, her 13-year-old-self. She tells Nuala about her first album of solo compositions in a decade.One of the children talking about their everyday achievements in our new podcast, SEND in the Spotlight, which features young people with special educational needs, is Henry. He's autistic, and school is not always easy. Things got even tougher when his grandma died. That's when Henry decided to raise money for the hospice which looked after her. We hear his story in his own words.With the Winter Olympics in full swing in Italy, how are sports like ice hockey faring here in the UK? And what are women doing on the ice rink? Joining Nuala are Ellie Wakeling and Abbie Sylvester, who both play alongside male players with the Romford Buccaneers.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. We will have Judith Perignon with us who wrote with Giselle Pelico a hymn to life.

Shame has to change sides. The book published today documents the story of an extraordinary woman who survived mass rapes. They were initiated by her husband who recruited dozens of men. We're going to hear more about the life of Giselle, who became one of the most compelling figures of recent times and about the impact of her actions when she opened that rape trial to the public. That's coming up in just a moment. Also today, the renowned Welsh harpist, Catherine Finch, who has driven from Wales to be in the Women's Ares studio with her harp, she's going to be performing from her latest album, Notes to Self. Here's just a snippet of what's in store.

Catherine created the album for her 13-year-old self as she thought about what she would have wanted that young girl to know. And I'm wondering, do you have something you wish your 13-year-old self new? some advice or reassurance to get in touch and it can be from the profound to the superficial. The way to do it is to text 84844 on social media

or at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website or for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 0-3700-100-444. I might say don't get that perm. Also, have you and you found love, perhaps, of winter sports while watching the Winter Olympics.

And what about ice hockey? Well, my guests are feeling the pain of no team GB competing this time in that sport, but the silver lining is that we will have them in our studio. At Olympic level, teams are single-sex, but my guests both play with men with the Rompford Buccaneers. So we're going to hear more about that again to get in touch 8-4-8-44. But I want to turn back to December 2024. In France's largest rape trial, Dominique Pelico and 46 other men were found guilty of the aggravated rape of his wife, Giselle.

There were another two found guilty of attempted rape, another two found guilty of sexual assault. Dominique had drugged Giselle with medication without her knowledge, raped her and invited other men to rape her and filming as they did so. And of course, with this story, there are graphic details and some of them can be of a disturbing. nature. I just want to let you know that as we get into this conversation. There were another 20 men who also took part in these rapes who have not been identified. Giselle Pelico, you might remember, waived her right to anonymity and went to the courtroom for 16 weeks during that trial to face those men. She declared that shame has to change sides. Giselle became a household name, not only in her native France, but also around the world. But there is very little until now really no. known about her life. But today sees the publication of her much-anticipated memoir, a hymn to life. And ahead of its publication, Giselle spoke to Victoria Derbyshire on BBC's Newsnight. We've voiced up her words. I was truly sacrificed on the altar of vice. I was a martyred woman, thrown as prey to all

these individuals. To think that one of them was HIV positive, it was sheer luck that I didn't contract the virus. Because of that too, I feel that someone up there protected me because I really am a survivor. You made the remarkable decision to let the world know who you are, to waive your legal right to anonymity, which meant the trial of all these men would be opened up to the public and the media, and everyone would know who you were. Why did you choose to do that? When I decided against a close hearing, I wanted the shame to shift to the other side. I'd carried that shame for more than four years. That self-inflicted pain, I felt, meant victims were being punished twice.

And I thought that if I was able to overcome it, all victims could do it too. I'm sure of it. They must not lose confidence. They must dare to choose a public trial. It's very important. It's also a past. to self-recovery. Shame must be carried by the accused, not the victims. Giselle Pellicoe there and her words were spoken by Claire Corbett.

I want to bring in the writer and journalist Judith Perignon, who co-wrote the memoir with Giselle, joining me today from France. You're very welcome to the programme. Why did Giselle want to write this book, Judith? Good morning. I think Giselle was proposed first. It was not how. her idea. She's a very discreet and an average woman. She didn't think even at that time that her life was so interesting. But there were many proposals and she was beginning to think after this trial that her faith was very well known. Her name was known and the awful story that happened to her, but nobody knew her. Nobody heard her words about it. Who she was, where she grew up, how she met

this man, Dominique Pelico, the life they had and what she went through during this investigation and awful story. So she wanted to tell it in her own words. And you helped her find those words as well. I should say to people actually because I saw a hard copy of the book this morning and Giselle were so used to her face in the courtroom, but there is now a beauty and a lightness on that cover

which we can come to as well. But looking back, it's very powerful, the memoir. It does start on the day that Dominique, her husband needs to go to the police station, having been caught taking photographs under women's skirts in the supermarket, the illegal act of upskirting. Giselle has set the table for breakfast and has set out his clothes, which gives us pause. At the station, we read about her disbelief and denial when the police want to talk to her too and then begin to show her images of when she was drugged and raped.

It is shocking. Tell me a little about juxtaposing that minutia of her life, you know, the breakfast things, taking care of her husband with that particular scene. I think it was a way to understand what their life was before. I think Giselle is in a way an independent woman. She worked all her life and also a traditional woman from her generation, taking care of everything at home, even preparing her husband's clothes, which says something.

And so, and these details, we wanted to tell this story with many details for the readers to be with them, to understand what kind of people they wear, they are. And of course, a life collapse a few hours later when she's in front of this policeman, showing her a few pictures. And even at that moment, in the beginning, seeing this picture of her, asleep or drugged and almost naked on this bed. She said, it's not me. It's not me. And the policeman said, but look, it's you and it's your bedroom.

Look, this lamp are your bedroom's lamp. And she said, yes, but it's not me. She couldn't really realize. And she said, my brain stopped. Yeah. And of course we can understand that. And I think it does give us a real insight into what Giselle went through at that time. I think what we also then see is an unraveling.

She has three children that she's very close to, David, Caroline and Florian. And immediately, Dominique has a different role in their lives in a way that Giselle is trying to hold on to some of the past decades, the past 50 years. Already some of her has been a raise. She's trying to hold on, while the children, want to get rid of him, his things, the memories, their childhood in a way. Can you talk to me a little bit about getting that across? Yeah, the big difference is the children will need immediately to create emptiness, to erase everything.

And when they come back from the police station, they arrive a day later. They begin to destroy everything, to destroy the archives, the pictures, the dishes, as if the life and the happy life they had, a happy holiday they had there, didn't really happen. And on the opposite side, Giselle was saying, no, please leave me a few things. Leave me a few memories because it's 50 years of her life. And if you create, and if you erase everything, I'm dead. I haven't alive. I think that was the part as well that I began to understand,

that some aspects of Giselle, for example, she brought clothes to prison to him, for example, worried he might be cold, at times protecting any part of Dominique or her life was really about protecting herself. Exactly. I think Giselle, and it was interesting to write her old story, since she's a kid,

when she discovered a mother's thesis and her mother died when she was nine years, old. So since she's a kid, she feels the danger of loss, of emptiness. And this feeling she's to struggle with since she's a very young kid, she felt it coming back when that happened. Her kids told her, you have to leave, come with us. So they took the train the day after to Paris. And when she arrived in Paris with two suitcases, she felt lost. And she cries every time she described this scene because I think the emptiness of her life at that moment

three days after she discovered what happened to and what the husband did to her put her back in this feeling and she's struggled with since she's a kid. Yeah, we learn a lot about her childhood in Germany after the war. Her father was a French soldier, her mother dying as you mentioned when she was nine. Then a cold, very cold stepmother,

stepped in and there was also the early death of her father. So when she meets Dominique, she's just 19, madly in love, and considers him her escape. But there are so many details. I was wondering, how did you bring out those memories, Judith? Giselle, I was very surprised because very old memories are still very alive in her head, in her mind. And for example, when she met Dominique Pellico at 19.

It was such an important moment in her life after this childhood we were speaking about. It was like a saver. And she remembers that feeling. And it was the same for him because he was coming from a very, very rough family. So this pact they made together, these two young people saying, we'll be happy. I will help you, you will help me. It was still very, very alive in our mind.

And of course, having detail, I was pushing her. to dig into her memories, you know, to describe the scene because it's a way you write a book, you know, which most was it, that was the room, where were you? And I think working like that is being faithful to the way Giselle is living with her memories. It is very gripping, very compelling to read. A pivotal moment, of course, in this whole story is when Giselle decides that she's going to have trial that is open to the public. How do you understand how she made that decision?

I think Giselle, she went through a different period after this husband was arrested. First, she needed to be alone. So she went to live on an island on the west of French West Coast. And she didn't want to stay at her children's house. She wasn't feeling well. she needed to be alone. And it was very important for her. And then she began to reconnect with other people, new people.

And in the second moment, and she was also reading the file because she had to be prepared for the trial. And she felt she couldn't be alone anymore. She needed to have people around her because in the courtroom, there would be 51 men who raped her who did, disrespect her and she wanted to be surrounded. So the second step of her going back to us fit was to be surrounded with people, not to be alone facing this man.

I mean, she is incredible in how open her heart is, both to friends and to her honesty, speaking to people about what has happened to her. even to the point that she found love again, which is a wonderful turn in this tale. And she's also very interesting on the way that she thinks about the relationships between men and women. How would you describe that aspect of Giselle?

This aspect, and this is why the title in English is Him to Life, I think this aspect is Giselle, because of what we say about her. childhood, about a relationship to life, she can't afford to be weak, to be anger, to be, since she's a teenager, she wants to be happy. And it's a way to resist to emptiness and to the idea of loss. She saw her father, her brother die from sadness, finally. And so when she's so sad and after this, she found out.

that her husband did that to her. She reconnect with people with a deeply joy, you know, this deep joy she's twice. She built since she's a kid. And so she fell in love because she met with friends. They organized a dinner with this man who just lost his wife. So there were two sad people, very, yeah, very lonely, and they recognize each other. Jean-Loop, yeah. Jean-Loup.

Yeah. And it's very life-affirming that that takes place and also that she is able to start another life, really. I want to bring in Professor Manning Garcia, who watched the trial in Avignon and has spoken to me previously about her book, Living with Men, Reflections on the Pelico trial. Welcome back to Woman's Hour.

As I mentioned, the book has been published today, translations into 22 languages. the courtroom is part of this book. I think it is some of the most harrowing scenes that there are. Giselle is challenged, dismissed by the defence and the defendants about what she went through. For example, that she consented to what happened or enjoyed it. It reads like efforts to shame her.

The subtitle is shame has to change sides. I'd be curious, Mannon, whether you think that shame has changed. changed side since Madame Pelico walked into that courtroom. I think it did, actually. I think the very fact that this book is coming out, as you just said, in 22 languages that we're here

talking about it today, it means that it's changed that we know the Pelico name for instance. For us, it's not anymore Dominique Pedico, it's Giselle Pedico. And what happened on these videos, what happened to Giselle Perico for these

10 years was that she was was a woman at best. She was an object, so a woman, a random incarnation of womanhood. And she became a subject. She is now an eye. She has a voice. She has a history. She has a subjectivity. So she has completely flipped the narrative that feeds sexual violence. She is a person. Exactly what these men didn't want to see in her. And that I find it to be really extraordinary. So it's not just that it's a story of someone, but it is really that she has incarnated, she has embodied that change of narrative from an image of woman to a subject with a history and a voice. And she decided, as we hear in the book, to keep that name Pelico so that

there should be, she thought, no shame for her children, her grandchildren or others that have it. I did see or here, should I say, at the beginning, when Giselle Pelico, we played a little clip of her, she talked about, you know, women who have gone through rape to dare to have a public trial. Do you think that will happen, Manon, or is happening? Yeah, I think it is happening in the sense that a lot of women are inspired by Giselle Pellico, that they think that they have nothing to be. shame of it has really questioned this deep shame that victims of sexual violence feel although they shouldn't and with giselle filico with what she said it's been an inspiration she has also challenged this narrative that is very bad for sexual violence victims that we could never reconstruct ourselves or that you're damaged for life or something like that some people are and understandably so

are deeply traumatized. I'm not trying to say, oh, sexual violence does nothing to you. But I think for a lot of women, the shame also comes from the fact that there is this underlying narrative that once you've been raped, you will never recover from this. And the fact that Giselle is now everywhere in the world with her joyful smiling face saying, I found love again, I trust someone again, there is a possibility of joy, there is a possibility of harmony, is really inspiring. for a lot of women. With the law, a couple of things, Manon. Since that trial, the law in France has changed, I believe, regarding consent. Could you briefly tell us what that is?

Yes, so basically the National Assembly has decided to include explicitly consent in the law where consent used to be implicit. But I'm not sure this change is the most important change that happened. legally and socially. First of all, I think legally, what we're seeing right now is that in France, there is a change, there is a desire to take off the notion of marital duty from marriage law. So up until now, so up until 2026, there was this idea that people who are married owe sex to one another, which is in stark contrast with the very idea of intramarital rape, right? And so I think two weeks ago, the National Assembly has passed a law to put an end to this.

And so now we're waiting for the vote of the Senate. But I'm fairly certain that the Pyrical trial had a huge impact on this. But also socially and legally, what has changed is the recognition of chemical submission. Up until now, it was, you know, we thought that chemical submission was rapist drugs in glasses and bars, right? And now we're understanding that chemical submission is drugging your wife, is also making women drunk to make them more accessible praise and so on and so forth. And so the nerd, like the story of Giselle Pellico, as she says herself, has made it such that women who would have the similar symptoms as her might think that this could be what's happening to them. but doctors would, and now the law will reimburse the medical tests, which was not the case until now, to check if you've been drugged by someone in order to have sex.

There's two aspects that raises for me, Mann, and one, that Giselle had spent 10 years having medical examinations, trying to find out why she was having blackouts, exhaustion, vaginal leakage, and oftentimes being told it was down. to the fact of her age, for example. And these cases are rare, but she said she felt, Giselle felt dismissed. So you're saying, Manin, that there are wider conversations happening in the industry now.

Yes, there are wider conversations happening in the medical world, but also it is true that what Judith and Giselle have accomplished that is incredible in this book is that they go back in details about what happened to her. about the ageism and the mix of ages and sexism that she suffered from these doctors. And they described what these rapes did to her body that everyone dismissed as being something like, oh, you're a woman over 65. Your life is over anyway.

So we don't really care about what's happening to you. But we have to hear this. We have to hear this message that society as a whole and doctors as parts of society give of saying women over 65 are invisible. Their lives are seen as worthless, but there are very many women over 65 that still want to have a good life. And Giselle is a proof that you can find love after 65

and reinvent yourself after 65. So we need to have a general discussion about this. I want to go back to the courtroom, because there was another aspect, which might have been distressing to many who saw that the wives, girlfriends, mothers at times of some of the rapists were there supporting them a day in, day out.

It may have been difficult to witness. I'm wondering what Giselle's thoughts were on that. When Giselle was seeing this woman, sisters, wives, and she felt she could have been like them, denying that her, their husband, their son raped this woman. And this is Gisel's strength to admit she could have been like that. She never changed her story because now she's an icon, you know.

She doesn't change the curse of her story. And she's very sincere when she told me that, she said, yeah, I could have been like her, like them. And this woman, in the court, when the video was shown on the screen, This woman, they were going out. They didn't want to see their partner raping this woman. And my understanding as well from the book is that some were offered drug testing on whether they could have potentially been victims of chemical submission, but that they refused. Yes, they refused.

They say, no, it can't happen to me. And so it's very interesting about the denial. And even from women, even from women, yeah. Judith, how does Giselle see her role now? There is a line in the book, close to the end, where she says she is not courageous, but has a deep urge and determination to change our patriarchal sexist society.

Yes, it's interesting because this patriarchal society, she used this word for the first time when she went out of the courtroom for an official statement. And she admitted it's a word she never used. It was not in her own vocabulary. And now she used it and we put it in the book. And her role after that, I think the book is of a strong message and she will travel and speak about this book.

But she's also very, very, she wants to go back. to her regular life, to a calm life. She wants to be back in her home and be a little forgotten, not for what she did, but, you know, she wants to be back to her life, a normal life. It's quite the book. Thank you so much for coming on. That is Judith Perignon, who co-wrote a hymn to life.

Shame has to change sides with Giselle Pelico. That is out today. It's also available as an audio book narrated by Emmet Homson. I also want to thank Professor Manon Garcia. Living with Men is her book. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard on this or during this discussion, there are links to help and support on the BBC Action Line. For years, I've sounded like a broken record.

I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, many of you have been getting in touch with me about your 13-year-old selves. I'm saying, you know, what would you tell them? Because my next guest has been thinking about what she would have told her 13-year-old self. Here's one. I would tell my 13-year-old self the opposite to what teachers and others felt.

I'm not stupid or thick. I would also tell myself not to be a doormat with men. That is Helen getting in touch. Here's another. My 13-year-old self needed to know that it doesn't matter what other people think of you, only that you like yourself and to focus on that,

on the things that bring you joy. The people I've known in my life who can focus there always go far. 8-4-8-44 if you would like to get in touch. Well, I'm asking for that because we have the award-winning. internationally renowned Welsh harpist and composer Catherine Finch. She first came to prominence in her early 20s

as the official royal harpist to King Charles, the then Prince of Wales. She achieves chart success with her number one recording of Buck's Goldberg Variations and has performed with many of the world's leading orchestras. She began playing the harp at just six. Six, Catherine. Yeah.

It's a very small little hands for a harp. Yeah, small hands and a smaller harp, though. We do have a giant harp to my left here. So the new album is notes to self. This is reflective, deeply personal tracks composed for Katie, I guess, as you were known. Yeah, so I grew up on the West Coast of Wales where there were plenty of Katrin's. And my brother actually decided that he preferred the name Katie. So I'm known as Katie Finch.

So the letters are all written to her. And I think 13 is an age, isn't it, of change? I think it's that period when you start to become conscious of yourself and who you are and what you're becoming. And for me, this was a chance, you know, as an instrumentalist, you never really get a chance to put words to your music. And so I thought writing these letters would be maybe a nice way of doing that, of trying to put some words to the music.

We're going to listen to a little of the track. Mor Aryanhod. More Aryanrod, yes. Let us listen to a little. So beautiful. What's it about? So that piece is, Ariandrod was the goddess of fate, really, in Welsh mythology. And also, you know, she symbolises sort of the moon and the turning of the moon and the tides. And she's a very female symbol.

So she's sort of the symbol of, yeah, of the power of the female. It's kind of interesting as well when we think about 13-year-olds, because often your periods are kind of starting around that time. you kind of, I suppose, moving into a whole new world. What do you think you'd like your 13-year-old self to know? Well, I mean, that's what I've written about, really, and all these things. And I think, you know, I look back on the last decade of my life. And certainly there's been my sort of fair share of experience in that.

And by that, I mean marriage breakups and my sexuality as well. I've had cancer. So I've been through a lot of journeys, I suppose, that, and it's with hindsight, isn't it? It's when you reflect on them. And I think it's only now that I'm sort of feeling that reflection. And so, you know, it's looking back with trying to be positive and looking back on experience, I suppose,

and saying that maybe the things I worried about as a 13-year-old, I needn't have worried quite so much about. And another thing that I kind of, when I was writing the letters and the pieces, I kind of realized how I'm important time was. And time is a big theme running through the album actually and the notes because I feel like I've really just rushed through things. You feel like that's interesting because I think with time, yes, we can rush through things, but sometimes we can feel impatient that we haven't got enough left and we get to a certain point. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like right from

when I started playing the harp at six, you know, and I was performing in as a young child, before, even before I was 13. And so, you know, that daily practice, that daily grind, competitions, school, everything. And then I, you know, I came here to London to study. And again, opportunities came. And it was always like my head was down, I suppose. And I was rushing forward through it all.

And I wish maybe that I'd looked up a little bit more. Yeah, I think it's hard, though. It's like hindsight being 2020. But why the harp? Oh, I was inspired by a Spanish harpist, actually, Marisa Robles. and the funny thing was my parents, I'm the youngest of three and they took all three of us

to a concert that was being held in a nearby. Was it Marisa, did you say? Marisa Robles, yeah. But I got taken because kids were free. And so it was like a cheap option for the night and then I was already tutling about on the piano. Can you remember what you thought when you saw the harp? Yeah, I mean, you know, she said Marisa is this amazing Spanish,

flamboyant character, full of energy, full of life. And she had this golden gilded harp in a small hall in Lampeter West Wales and I fell in love with it, you know, and I said I want to do that that night. And I did. And I, the harp, you know, I sort of say this really, the harp, through everything

that I've gone through. And really, you know, six years old is the sort of the first memories you start to have. And the harp's always been there. You know, that this instrument has been a part of my life, really. But as we look at it, you know, it is larger, it's taller than both of us.

And it's not the most. most perhaps accessible instrument, probably in terms of financial or carrying it around. I mean, how was that? Yeah, it's hard. And, you know, my parents, they remortgaged the house to get me the instrument I needed. And of course, then there's the logistical side of it. You need a big car.

You need stools and trolleys and strings. So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's not the easiest of instruments to manage. And to, like you say, affordability, it's difficult. But there are ways and there are ways to manage it. And, you know, in Wales, actually, we, there are many young harpists and it's kind of taught in schools. It's, it's, it's very much promoted and embraced there. So, yeah, it's been an instrument.

It's kind of my journey with it. It's been one where I've tried to maybe, you know, push it a little bit because it does, it sometimes gets stuck with a, it's a very female instrument. Well, I was thinking, like I was thinking this morning, this is women's air, that I can't think of any male harpses. And when I look it up, I can find a few, of course.

But why do you think it is? It's more than 90% are women. I mean, it is, but then I think it's changing as well. You know, I teach at the Royal Academy here, and we've got two amazing young lads in the department. So I think it's a changing thing. The instrument lends itself to beauty, doesn't it? It's something, you know.

Can you describe it? Okay, so this one is just actually quite modern. This is a new one. It's black. it's obviously it stands it's quite regal if you imagine a grand piano it's a grand piano standing up really that's a good way to describe it but you get you know lots of harps will come with loads of gilded gold pillars and you know cherubs on them

and angels and they're very beautiful things to look at and and but I think for me it's been more about that and I've wanted to push the instrument itself and its capabilities and the sound and what it can do and explore it really to what it to what it's capable of. Let us go back to 13-year-old Katie. So I was watching one of your YouTube videos where you had these notes

and also are they your daughters that are in the video? Okay, lovely. So Dave obviously going through that transition as well. Tell me a little of what you want to say and we're going to listen to a piece kin in a moment as well. But what it is you're trying to get across. Well, so there are different themes going on

you know, that the first track on the album 13 is about, it's literally in a pulse of 13, which is an unusual time signature for a piece. But it's also about that, you know, you kind of, you get told that 13 is an unlucky number and everything, right? But for me, actually, that the 13 has given me all much love and much joy. And it's been my, you know, a very special and lucky number for me. So it's about, I guess that letter is about not quite always believing what people tell you,

You know, and things can turn out to be differently. You've got together again, which is about me finding myself. And, you know, I realized I was a gay woman in my mid-30s. And so, you know, that was a hard transition to make. And it was something that I needed to do. But obviously it meant a breakup of marriage. And there were my two daughters, you know, were there. So it was a hard and difficult time.

But it's about, you know, that that process is not being afraid of that, really. And then this track, Kinn, which I'll play you some now is about motherhood. So, you know. In what way? So I have two girls and I look at my relationship with my mother and my, my mom gifted me time. So she used to sit with me for hours and hours with my practice. And, you know, she devoted herself to that really.

And for years, you know, since I started playing, as you know, when I was sick. So by giving me that time, it meant I have had this amazing career. And, you know, I've been very lucky. I've, I've, I've been away. I've been able to perform everywhere. But I guess, but by doing that, it's meant maybe that I haven't, I haven't been able to give quite so much time as I would have liked to my two daughters, you know. And it's been hard, it's been a very hard juggle to balance the career with, with mother,

with being a mother, you know. And the career, which, you know, demands. of you to tour, to be out there. Absolutely. And speaking of touring, I read that your father plants a tree for every flight you take. He does.

My dad's a tree guy and he's got some land in South Wales near where we are. And yeah, he's planted a lot of trees. And so every time I go anywhere, he likes to pop another one in. Oh, lovely. Doing a bit. That is a lovely tribute.

So you're going to perform kin for us now. What do you think we should listen out for? Well, just I guess that passion of being, you know, of being in love and mothering and embracing all that that involves, really. What you're talking about 13-year-old self has resonated with our listeners. I'll let you go over to the harp there. Catherine, as I read a couple of these messages. I'd let my 13-year-old self know that there's nothing wrong with her. Her brain is just different to how society is designed.

In the future, neurodivergent women will be recognized. Please embrace your differences. don't be ashamed. So says Lucy. Another, you are not responsible for the actions of any adult. And one more. It's okay not to fit in.

Let's listen to Catherine. So beautiful. It is like a bam, I think, as we think about some of the issues that we discussed this morning. So wonderful to hear Catherine Finch there. I do see somebody just got in touch and says, can we have some harp music every day, please?

Indeed, notes to self is released on the 27th of January. Catherine will be touring the UK. And if you do want to hear more of her today, as I think you do, she will be on Radio 3's in tune later this afternoon. I think this is a first for me sitting so close to a harp and having a play like that. How wonderful. Thank you very much, Catherine. I do want to let you know about our new podcast as well.

It's called Send in the Spotlight. It aims to reimagine support for children with special education. educational needs. You might have seen videos on our Instagram feed. Our regular contributors are Kelly Bright and Anna Maxwell Martin, among others. And we wanted to bring you here on Women's Hour some of the stories that we feature on the podcast about the everyday achievements of young people with special educational needs and disabilities. Have a listen to Henry and his mum. Henry is autistic and school isn't always easy. Things got tougher when his grandma died. But that was when Henry decided to raise money for the hospice, which looked at. after her. Hello, my name's Henry. I'm nine years old and I'm from Burnway. Hello, my name's Emma and I'm Henry's mum. Last year, suddenly, we lost my mum and one evening, Henry and I were talking and I was saying to him, what can I do to make it better for you? What would you like to do in these holidays to make it better? And Henry asked if he could have an ice cream parlour. So, So I said, if that's going to make you feel happier, then yeah, of course you can.

My grandma always used to like ice cream. What are grandma's favourite ice cream? Mint chopped chip. And what shows? Mint chopped chip. Yeah, you were snap, weren't you? I only thought that we'd be making ice creams for family. But when we woke up in the morning, Henry had lots of signs all done

and he had the prices already of what he was selling his ice creams for and his menu ready. I set it up in my back garden. I put some signs with some arrows. That's where I put my menus on the gate. And then people came. And then people came to the gate. We had raspberry ripple.

We had chocolate. We had pink chopped chips. Cones and what did you put on top? Flakes. Chocolate. Whipple round things. some sauce, some sprinkles as well. What did you enjoy most about talking to them?

Meeting different people from the village. And how much did you charge everyone for these ice creams? And then tell them how much money you raised. We did a big count up. Yeah, I made $325. We did, and then we went to the hospice and we handed the money in. And then in October, Henry decided to... say, Mummy, can I raise some more money?

So go on, Henry. Tell them what we decided to do. We made hot chocolate cones with Rudolph. We spent a full day making them. I put tinsel and a Christmas tablecloth over. And I've also... I also wear the Christmas jumper. And I had a Christmas jumper. And I had a burn where Christmas. Who's your favourite team?

Burton, where my favourite player is Hannibal and Carl Walker. And then tell everybody, how much money did you make the second time round? £305 £3.000. Yeah. So do you know how much money that is altogether or not? 630 pound. How does it make you feel raising money in memory of your grandma and telling everybody? We're happy. Really happy.

And I'm super, super proud. And I hope that anybody listening to this podcast, that you all see what these children are capable of. And they're amazing, they're amazing human beings. Thank you for listening to us. Okay, say bye. Bye. Bye.

Henry and his mum. His mum is Emma. Search for sending the spotlight on BBC Sounds. If you'd like to hear more, There's new episodes out every Monday, just about 13-year-olds as well that I was getting some of your messages on. Here's one. I wish I'd known I was autistic. My world would have made sense to me.

8-4-8-44 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, I want to move to some ice. The Winter Olympics, of course, are in full swing. That's in Italy. Ice hockey is one of them you might be watching. But how is it here in the UK? and who are some of the women that are on the rink? Joining me in the studio is Ellie Wakeling and Abby Sylvester

who both play alongside male players with the Romford Buccaneers. Good morning. Good to have both of you with us. Have you been watching the Olympics? I have, yes. Been watching a couple of the hockey games and it's good to watch obviously other sports as well that you don't normally get a chance to watch. And Team GB is not the other.

there for ice hockey. Sadly not. Sadly not. Why would you say, Ellie, off the top of your head? We had a good opportunity at the previous Olympic qualifiers. Missed out quite late in the game and extra time conceding a goal. Heartbreak? Yeah, it was devastating.

But that would have got us through for the next round of qualification. And from there, obviously, trying to get through. But sadly, obviously didn't make it. think it comes down a lot to funding in the UK. Which we'll get to as well. But how did you, Ellie, discover ice hockey? Going back a few years now, when I was younger, my uncle played, my dad played.

My mum was a manager. And I used to just sit at the rink with them kind of helping out doing little jobs. And one day the junior head coach said to me, he was like, Eddie, why are you always helping, like tidy in the cupboard? You always put the kit away. Why don't you just put it on?

and try. And I was like, oh, I guess so. So tried it that day, got on the ice. I'd never look back since. So your family were really kind of, I suppose, part of that world. Abby, for you? It's quite similar. So my uncle actually plays hockey, which then got my brother into it.

I did actually start out by doing figure skating. Oh, really? Yeah. And then one day I sort of went to my mum and just said, I want to give it a go. So, yeah, and gave it a go. and like Ellie said, never looked back. So let's talk about playing with men. How did that come about for you, Ellie?

When I was 16, Rompford, I shrink reopened. And Abby and myself have always played with the mixed junior team. So always played in teams that have boys and girls. And the coach at the time, Ben said to me, if you come over to Rompford, I'll get you some training with the senior men's team. And I was like, oh, sounds quite interesting. got there trained with them

and then he said, trying to play in the games. And I was like, oh, yeah. And then since that, always kind of played in the men's teams with Abbey most of the time. Yeah, which is really cool. How is it, Abby?

And I suppose how is it different playing with men compared to women? I think the main difference is, obviously men are generically quite a lot bigger. Obviously, we do play against a range of ages, so obviously 30-year-olds, 16-year-olds. So obviously they are physically stronger than us. So obviously, and also in men's you have more body contact.

So obviously we have to use our bodies a lot more to sort of get the puck and be more sort of positionally to be able to play it out. So you're going to need different skills. Because that's one story I remember. So body checking, for example. Ellie, maybe you'd like to explain what that is and it's not allowed in the women's game. Have I got that right?

So the purpose of a body check is to separate the player from the puck. So the player that's carrying the puck, the opposing team will make body contact to try and win possessive. Kind of give them a shove. Would that be fair? Yeah.

It can be a hard shove sometimes but in the women's, you have to play the puck before you can play the body. So that would be the difference. But in the men's, it's all about big hits. So how do you do that?

Abby, for example, how do you get around that? Because you don't want to obviously get the full force of somebody who is so much bigger than you. Yes, I think it's more about positional plays. So obviously, if we're both going for a puck, I tend to sort of wait for them to get a bit closer to then use my body first. So obviously then I'm sort of putting my force against them to then give me a better chance of getting the puck. And I think that works quite well because then you're sort of on the right side

to then try and get the puck away, which obviously is the end goal, is to get the puck and play it out to your team. How has it been? I mean, did people, men, you know, welcome you with open arms or was it grudging, Ellie?

I had noticed that a lot of the players that we played with or played against have been very welcoming of the fact that we are in that league. They've accepted it. They don't really treat us any different. They still will make the hits on us, maybe not as hard as they would

to one of the guys, but they definitely still treat us equally. We've always been quite fortunate to have good teammates who just include us. So yeah, we've had quite a positive experience of that. So no people then upset, for example, that they can't go full force on you or feel that they need to hold back?

I would say it's more the fans that have a problem. Oh, interesting. Yeah, there's been a few times where the fans are a bit like, oh, the players can't hit them as hard, it's not fair, but the players know that the end goal is just to get the puck back. So if they hear us they get the puck, it doesn't matter how hard or heavy it was. So that's out on the ice.

But let's go to the locker room because there's a lot of pep talks taking place, advice, camaraderie, team spirit that happens there. So are you in the locker room, Abby? Yeah, so we do get, we obviously get our sweats on separately. So our base layers, we obviously go out of the room and get changed. But to get all our kit on and everything, we do go in the change room because obviously we do want to be a part of the team

and I think that's a big part of sort of the team jelling together and coming together on the ice because obviously not only you get to know your team better but you also talk about you know things you do on the ice and what you can do better so I do think it is a big part of the game and I think we're quite lucky that we can be a part of that so you're always comfortable in the locker room Ellie yeah well we've grown up with it I think it's just what we're used to now and like Abby said obviously there's times that we will leave a changing room but when we are in the room

with the team they're very inclusive involve us in their conversation so yeah always feel quite welcome it's so interesting so then at a certain level like Olympic level the ice hockey is a single sex sport yeah yeah and you talked about

funding there so tell me what is the picture like for women's hockey or you know trying to get to the next level for Team G.B. So for the women's leagues in the UK, you do have to pay to play. Oh, wow. Abby knows it's quite inexpensive fee, isn't it?

Yeah, and also to play in the women's elite league, for me, I have to travel an hour and a half because there's just not many teams. You also have to travel up all over the country, like up to Whitley Bay, which is obviously over five hours and you've got to fund it yourself. So obviously it does get quite expensive. Is it the same for the men? I think it depends obviously on the level. So for us, we don't have to pay to play on our men's team.

We're quite lucky. The division below, you do. But then above us, people do get paid to play. And I'm wondering, you know, people that are watching, there's probably girls that are thinking they'd like to get involved in ice hockey. How did they do that, Ellie? I mean, yours, I know you had the family structure. there that was kind of pushing you towards it perhaps?

There's lots of clubs now, more teams and they were when we were younger, that do have girls' teams. So, near where we live in Chelpswood, there's an under-16 girls' team. There's one in London with Haringay. So there is a few around the country. You go to the Queen Bees, there's the Ice Bees, which is an under-16 team. So there is a lot of girls' teams now, which they're never used to be when we started playing. but I think it's just as easy as reaching out.

Teams are all so welcoming. There's learn to play. There's, like we say, the girls. So there is a lot of opportunity now. Opportunity that's there. But I am struck by the fact the pay to play because both of you are holding down jobs as well as having this as obviously a big part of your life as well.

What's that balancing act like, act like, Abby? To be fair, my job is really supportive. You know, if I do need any time off, so for GB, I do have to take it as holiday. So they're quite supportive and they do allow me to have that. With regards to day to day, we actually train quite late. So we're sort of getting on the ice at 10 o'clock, 10.30. So obviously it doesn't impact my day job as such.

Obviously some of the late nights may make me a bit tired the next day, but genuinely it's not too bad. And you, Ellie? Similar to Abby, my job's very flexible. very supportive of when we go away with GB, they'll always say yes to time off. Working in a school, it doesn't really affect my... You teach? Yeah, I do a lot of the PE stuff in my school.

It doesn't affect my day-to-day job too much because, like Abby mentioned, we do train really late at night, so the only downfall is you can be quite tired. But, you know, it doesn't really affect the working day as such, which is good. Well, enjoy watching the Olympics And who knows, maybe we'll be eyeing up the next ones and keeping an eye out for Abby Sylvester and Ellie Wakeline who are from The Bookingeers.

Thank you so much for joining me today in studio. I want to let our listeners know that tomorrow I'll be speaking to Bell Burden in the middle of the pandemic. Her husband suddenly left her and her children with no explanation. It's quite the story. I'm going to be speaking to her

on tomorrow's woman's hour. So I do hope you will join me then. I also want to thank you so much for all your messages that you've sent in today. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Eleni Jones. And I'm Mark Kermode.

And in screenshot, we guide you through the ever-changing landscape of the moving image. I really like any story about self-delusion. My intent is to allow the audience to see the shining through these people's eyes. Meeting those on both sides of the camera. And uncovering fascinating insights into what we want. How would you describe the difference between the doppelganger and the clone? Why is it such a cinematic subject? What was your relationship like with your double?

Screenshot from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure.

The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.