Woman's Hour - Gisèle Pelicot, Women's Tennis, Osteoporosis, Zoe Birkett

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

In 2024 Gisèle Pelicot waved her legal right to anonymity for the trial of her then husband, declaring that shame has to change sides. Her then husband had drugged and raped her and invited other men to rape her, filming as they did so. He was found guilty of her aggravated rape, along with 46 other men. Another two were found guilty of attempted rape and a further two were found guilty of sexual assault. Gisèle has now written her memoir, A Hymn to Life and joins Nuala McGovern talk about her decision to have an open court, the devasting effect on her and her family of her ex-husband’s actions and finding love again in her 70s.For the first time since 2023, a women’s match will take centre stage in the tournament’s primetime night session at the French Open. The coveted slot has been dominated exclusively by men's matches since then. The absence has drawn growing criticism from players and fans, questioning why they’ve been overlooked. But now, a fourth round clash between – Belarus's Aryna Sabalenka current number one player and former number 1 Japan's Naomi Osaka finally breaks that run. Tennis reporter Karthi Gnanasegaram joins us.72% of those affected by osteoporosis are women. The government promised to roll out fracture liaison services to every NHS Trust in England two years ago. But there is still no progress or plan. Just over half of NHS Trusts currently have them. Nuala speaks to the Royal Osteoporosis Society CEO Craig Jones and expert Dr Nicola Peel, as well as Irene Baker who says her osteoporosis wasn't treated properly for five years as she has no specialist service in her area.She came to fame on one of the first TV talent shows back in 2002, and twenty four years later Zoe Birkett’s now out on tour with Take That. She’s played Tina Turner in the West End and the lead in The Bodyguard. She tells us all about performing with Gary, Howard and Mark and stepping into Lulu’s shoes on their hit record Relight My Fire for their tour The Circus Live.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Ducel Pellico calls herself a very simple and ordinary woman. I would say, and Manny would agree, that she is anything but. In a moment, an in-depth interview with the woman who waved her right to anonymity when she took on the men who raped her. and she also led to a change to the law on rape in France. She says she now feels invincible.

I also speak to Duzel about her reconciliation with her daughter Caroline and how she is now going to help Caroline find out what happened to her. That interview coming up in just a moment. Also today, a women's match is to headline the night session at the French Open for the first time in three years. There's been heavy criticism for reserving the prime time, one-match slot almost exclusively for men. So can one match be a game-changer, we ask, we'll discuss.

Also, singer Zoe Burkett, Zoe of pop idol, Tina and the Bodyguard fame is now on tour with Take That on their rebooted The Circus Live Tour. We're going to hear what it's like to be in that dazzling ring with Gary, Howard and Mark. Plus, according to the Royal Osteoporosis Society, one in two women over the age of 50 will break a bow. due to the condition compared to one in five men. Now, they are calling for the government to speed up plans for dedicated clinics. We'll hear a bit more detail about all of that.

If you would like to get in touch about anything you hear on the programme, you can text us the number 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 0300-100-444. But let me turn. Back to 2024, a defining image was that of Giselle Pelico. She waved her legal right to anonymity and walked past supporters chanting and singing at the courthouse every day in Avignon as she attended the 16-week trial of her ex-husband and that of others involved in abusing her. You may already be aware this is a story that is deeply distressing in its details, just to put that at the offset.

And a reminder, Giselle Pelico's husband, Monsieur Pelico, as Giselle now refers to him, was convicted of drugging and raping her and subsequently found guilty of aggravated rape and given the maximum sentence of 20 years. Over a period of almost 10 years, he invited other men into their home and documented some of them assaulting her while she was unconscious. Of the men who could be identified, there were 46 were also found guilty of aggravated rape, two men of attempted rape, a further two were found. guilty of sexual assault. It was France's largest rape trial and the world's media were watching.

Giselle Pellicoe declared that shame has to change sides and her actions have gone on to inspire other women across the world and led to a change in the legal definition of rape in France. The Independent named her the most influential woman of 2025. She was awarded the Lijon de Honour, France's highest civic honour. Well, Giselle Pellico has written her memoir. It's called a hymn to life. and it has become a global bestseller. Giselle joined me in the Woman's Hour studio along with her translator, Karine Kennedy. And I began by asking Giselle

if she had been surprised by just how many people wanted to hear her story. Yes, I'm still very surprised that this book has been overcame that this book would have been able to raise so much person.

Well, I'm really delighted that this book has worked in this way. I'm still very surprised that it has had so much success, but thrilled that it has. I'm happy for that this live March for that. Why did you want to tell your story? Throughout the trial, people were wondering how I come I could have that kind of strength.

And I think through the book, they're going to be able to discover it. Because through the trial, people didn't really get to know me properly. But in this way, they will be able to do so. I felt I did reading it. I found your book very uplifting, although at times obviously horrifyingly shocking. Let me turn to November 2020 when your life changed. You went to the police station with your then husband, Monsieur Bellicoe. He had been caught upskirting, filming under women's clothes in a supermarket.

And unbeknownst to you, the police had also found thousands of videos an image stored on his seized laptop, which catalogued your rape. The police take you into a room. They ask you questions to find out what you know. And they show you photographs, you lying lifeless on your bed, shocking photographs of abuse. It must have been so hard to believe your eyes. Well, it took me a great deal of time to assimilate all this. I sort of had a kind of dissociation.

I just couldn't really link the two. It did take me a lot of time to work out what had happened over the past decade. I initially disassociated from it. I didn't not enter to the present.

He had had to do it and I also felt for you with writing

this book that you had to recall that and put it down on paper and I wondered

what that was like. It was a moment extremely difficult it was a passage

I had to go through that people could actually understand everything

I had lived through yes it was a very difficult moment

and there were moments of joy or pain but I really felt

I needed to do it. But it's a passage obligé for that the people could understand all the we do learn about your life

up until this life-changing moment as well in the book. And even as the truth begins to come out, you want to

hold on to some of the happy memories of the past 50 years and some of the tangible items from

that life. But your children, they want to throw away all traces of Monsieur Pelico,

including family photo albums. Can you explain a little further, why you wanted to hold on to them? Well, seeing their mother try to retain these happy memories was something that they found really unbearable, and that was understandable.

But at the same time, the major difference was that I chose Mr. Pelikou. I was the one who chose him. I had three children with him, and to just throw it all away, I found very difficult. But the children, their hate and their eyes, anger meant that they did want to just scrap it all and respond in that way, but I couldn't respond in that way. It was all the legitimate as a comportment.

And we'll speak a little bit more about your children in this interview. But I want to go back to your early years, your childhood in Germany, after the war where your father was a French soldier, your mother died of a brain tumour when you were just nine, you had an unloving stepmother, and then the early death of your father. I wondered reading this child go through such difficulty whether that is something that has shaped you into the strong woman that you are today. I think that this trial, which possibly was certainly not

your regular run-of-the-mill standard trial, I think that I was better armed or better able to cope with it far better than other people because if your mother dies when you're nine years old, that already makes you grow up much more quickly than other children. And I did have some difficult moments and I'd always had to face adversity. Because of that past, I think I was able to face adversity more easily.

I think I was maybe certain for power to confront. Let us talk about the trial. Initially, it was to be closed. And then you changed your mind, which was an incredibly brave thing to do, to have the case open to anyone who wanted to watch it, waive your right to anonymity. Can you tell me a little bit more about that decision? I've made two times. I made four years. So it took me time to make that decision. It took me four

years because I felt that if I weren't to renounce to my anonymity, it would be as though I was isolating myself, I was hiding, I would feel ashamed. So I'd go for long walks along the beach. and it's my daughter who actually really encouraged me to renounce anonymity because otherwise, you know, these 51 individuals, they would have got away with it. And so on the 2nd of September 2024, I decided that that couldn't be the case any longer. I was struck also by the image of you wearing shades

and then one day the glasses come off. So that's very drool. When I was redescended, I was made sure that I had I had to be too late. The journalist had already had already

the photo and I'm sorry I'm going now, I'm going to let's me des enleved Well, I mean

that's very funny because in fact at the beginning, yes I was wearing sunglasses but then at one point we had

breaks and I went outside and I realized I didn't have my sunglasses with me and I thought okay

well that's it bugger it but that's it I'm going to make do without my

sunglasses but your image is now iconic with or or without sunglasses. With lunettes or without sunned

or without the word icon. I prefer I prefer the word icon. Why not? I prefer to use the word

consciousness raising to make sure that collectively people became aware. What about a beacon of consciousness raising?

A beacon, it's like a far. Ah, yes. I'm, look, if I can be

this little light that gives the force to be to be the nonce

for that they can be that little light that allows others to talk, to express themselves

and to rebuild themselves then yes, I don't mind having that image. I found reading what happened

within the courtroom disturbing at times. The defence lawyers made a request that the word

rape not be used in order to preserve the presumption of innocence. One proposed sexual

relation. while one of the judges suggested sex scene. I'm just wondering what it was like to be there listening to that. Well, I was absolutely horrified, and when I actually started my deposition, and I asked for the chair of the court to no longer use this kind of vocabulary, sexual scenes or scenes of sex,

I said it was completely unacceptable because it was rape. There's no doubt about it. Many of the men, when on trial were not remanded in prison. You had to squeeze past them during breaks. You could hear them chatting in cafes, drinking beer together.

That must have taken incredible strength. All of the men were convicted, but we do know there are at least another 20 who took part in these rapes but could not be identified and that are still free. And I'm wondering how you process that. I don't want to become paranoid.

Well, I don't want to become paranoid. I don't want them to control my life. And potentially one day, they will be arrested because they'll do exactly the same thing as they did with Mr. Pelico. I hope you feel a wall of armor and support from all of those that want to support you, help protect you,

the women outside the court, for example, and so many others around the court, world. Today I do feel invincible. I'm not scared of anything. The only thing that actually does worry me is the death of my nearest and dearest. But anything that can't harm you is going to make you stronger for sure. There was one part in the trial that I found particularly chilling. And that was when Monsieur Pellicoe, during his final cross-examination, said he wanted to force an insubmings women into submission. We are hearing more stories now in the news of chemical submission,

including cases where dozens of women have been drugged unknowingly. How do you understand that culture of sexual violence and, I suppose, a desire to force insubmissive women? With Mr. Pellicoe, he did say on a number of occasions that he wanted me to be a woman that would submit to him. But I always like to defend myself. I was always very independent. I just stood up for myself. But there are many men that are in the same category as Mr. Pidicou. But if I had heard a similar story to my story, then I would have certainly responded. And I'm hoping that if women know my story, that if they sense that things are slightly bizarre, if they sense a lot of pain, that they will react. And that potentially also they'll go and have blood tests and they also get their hair analyzed.

And it's her hair. And she'll be sure if her married the drug or not. Because with the hair analysis, you would be able to detect drugs that are in your system, for example. Because with the analysis of the teeth, they can detect. Yes, that's what happened for me. Also in the book, I was struck by the fact there were a lot of women supporting the perpetrators, their wives, their sisters, their mothers,

and the partners of some of these men refused to have their hair tested to see if they had potentially been drugged. Well, maybe it was just a way of protecting their partners and I think that maybe a lot of these women were in denial but of course there's no way that you could force them to do what's necessary. When you address the court midway through, you said every day people thank me for my courage.

I want to tell them this is not courage, but a deep urge in determination to change our patriarchal sexist society. You also declared that became really heard around the world, shame has to change sides. But do you think it has? Yes, because it's absolutely deculpabilise the victims. Well, yes, I think that we've got to make sure that women who've been attacked don't feel culpable, that they realize who actually is culpable.

And I think that we also have to deal with this macho patriarchal society. The society has got to change. It's a long pass. It's not going to change overnight. but I think women have got to react, they've got to have more confidence. It's a very complicated situation. In relation to that, since the trial, the law in France has changed in relation to consent. The French Parliament added consent to the legal definition of sexual assault and rape.

Previously, rape or sexual abuse in France had been defined as any form of sexual penetration committed with the use of violence, coercion, threat or surprise. Now the law will say that all sexual acts done to a sexual act done to. another without consent constitute rape. You must feel proud of the impact you're having on the legislation when it comes to other women. This trial, of course, allowed the legislation or the law to evolve. But essentially, just because the legislation has changed, that's not the beyond end all. Essentially, we have to be able to change mentalities. And it's through changing mentalities and through education that we'll be able to do so.

We'll change the mentality if we'll change the education of our children, very young, the respect and the attention that we can put to part to the other. Yes, I believe there have to be meetings with stakeholders. I believe we have to help victims because just by modifying the legislation, you haven't

necessarily achieved that much. There really has to be, you have to work hand in hand with victims. And of course, for the implementation to happen as well. Yes, yeah. Yes, of course. The abuse that you suffered at the hands of Monsieur Pelicoe had a huge impact on you, on your health over 10 years, for example,

blackouts, gynecological problems, he would even take you to the doctor knowing he had done this to you. Yet some may be surprised that you took him clothes in prison, for example, in case he was cold in winter. and many won't understand your actions. Can you explain it? Well, I was still living in my past, so it can easily be explained.

I had a kind of disassociation. So I was actually asked to bring him clothes. It was only two or three weeks later, after all. And so I went with my son, Florian, and I didn't meet up with him. I just gave them to the guard at the entrance of the prison. I didn't have been at the account of Mr. Pelico, where I've deposed these vestments

to guardians of the prison. I understand that you do want to meet with him. That hasn't happened yet. No, not even. Well, this is part of my way of kind of rebuilding myself. I'm not quite sure whether I'll be able to meet up with him or when I'll be able to meet up with him. And whatever happens, if I do meet up with him,

any answers that he will give me will remain purely private. I can totally understand that. But are you able to share with me what the questions would be? No, we'll not forget. It's in the domain private. No, that's entirely

private, but you mustn't forget that this man betrayed us and he destroyed our lives and I want to be able to really understand. And I've got to understand. And it was a betrayal of you, of course, but also of your family, so difficult. Among the around 20,000

images and videos were two photographs of your daughter, Caroline. possibly asleep, possibly drugged. Caroline has said she felt she was the forgotten victim of the trial. Monsieur Pelicoe says he did not abuse her. It did put a great strain on your relationship. How is it now? I accompany my wife and in her quest of verity,

because she has a reason to respond, and it's all the legitimate. Well, with my family, with my sons and my daughter, we're more united and stronger than ever, and I'm also accompanying my daughter in her quest for the truth. I'm so glad to hear that because I thought it was just so sad that something

already so traumatic then, you know, blew everything apart in the family that shattered a lot of trust and relationship so I'm very happy to hear that you are reunited. What you have to say, you know,

the suffering is not necessarily going to unite a family. We all needed our own time in order to be able to repair ourselves. And it just was, it's in that way that it was done. It's what it's been done. But I was struck there, Giselle, when you say that you want to help her also find justice. It's important for the victims that are in justice. Justice plays an essential role.

It's really important for victims to get justice. And it plays an absolutely essential role. role. She's a role essential of justice. Really. And so we will see what may happen

in that particular case. Returning to Monsieur Pelico, before the trial, the police told you that his DNA had been

linked to an attempted rape in 1999, which he eventually confessed to. He's also been questioned over the

drugging, rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent Sophie Nam, which he maintains he had nothing

to do with. I'm wondering how it felt or feels to find out about this tempted rape of another woman and then also an allegation of rape and murder. The arqueath is always in court, so it's right that I can't be pronounced on what is encore today. When I'm really thinking about the families of these two women today, the inquiries are still underway. I really hope that the rape will not be, you know, will not be proven to be here.

him, but I really have thoughts for these families. I've really a point for the family I was surprised, but also delighted to read that you have found love again. It's very life-affirming. And you say love is not dead, I am not dead, I still have faith in people. Once that was my greatest weakness, now it is my strength. strength and my revenge. Were you as surprised as I was when reading it? That's true, it's a great surprise.

We're like two adolescents and it's really wonderful that we've fallen in love. Of course it was a surprise for me. I just thought I'd end up my life with my family, with my children, with my friends, alone with them, and then life decided otherwise. And I met this young man of 73 years old. Jean-Loo And so you also have Lancombe, your little dog Lancombe M'Aqueathed

his reverence But he is in my And I think I think very far To see, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, he doesn't He doesn't keep him, he's always In the beginning December Longcombe actually left us

Oh no, I'm sorry He's a part of the story But he's part of the story But he's part of the history Yes, he's done the book I've had eternalized and it's just to say that Jean-Lu had the same chien. We have all the two, two

little bulldog. Yes, he is in the book. And in fact, Jean-Lu also have the same bulldog, the same... Yes, exactly. The same... Breed. Yes, a breed of dog. That's the right word. I feel, as I've been speaking to you, and really from when you walked into the studio,

that we're in the presence of greatness. And I wonder what it's like to walk down the street now, or wherever you go, being instantly recognized. I know where I come from. I know who I am. I'm a very simple and a very ordinary woman. And people have been incredibly kind to me. And when I see women who are suffering, I want to be able to also support them. For me, it's to say, yes, it's a way to their dear, merci, to me have supported also. Yes, I think you've given a lot of hope, optimism and voice to,

to other women who, you know, were silent or would have stayed silent in cases of violence, sexual violence against them. So that is a wonderful legacy. Well, I'm actually convinced that everybody's capable of fighting for themselves. If I was able to do it, then we can all do it. We all have the necessary resources within ourselves in order to be able to fight. We just have to be able to find them. So,

you're all capable to do it if I've done if I've done it's been so great to have you in the Women's Hour Studio, as I mentioned,

a real privilege to meet you, Giselle Pelico, her memoir, A Hymn to Life, shame has to change sides, is out now, also available

as an audio book narrated by Emma Thompson. Thanks so much. Merci to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Jeleleliko, her memoir is called a hymn to life. You can see video clips from my interview with Giselle on our social media platforms, including at BBC Woman's Hour on Instagram. As I was scrolling through, I did also see Giselle's children with her, wishing her a happy Mother's Day, which was just yesterday in France. And I do want to say if you've been affected by anything you've heard in that interview, you can go to the BBC's action line where you will find links to help and support. Now, for the first time, since 2023, a women's

match will take centre stage in the tournament's prime time night session at the French Open. The coveted slot has been dominated exclusively by the men's singles matches. So the absence has drawn criticism from players and from fans questioning why the women have been overlooked in this way. There is a fourth round clash between Belarus's Arina Sabalenko, current number one player, former

number one Japan's Naomi Asaka. That is going to break that run. Let me bring in a tennis reporter who's across it all, who is Carty, Nanasegrim. Good to have you back with this, Carthie. You're very welcome. So why does this slot matter so much? It's the big prime time slot. This is the night session. It was only brought in a few years ago in 2021. So that night session is where all the eyes are, not just for the fans in the stadium. It's now a separate ticket. So it's a separate price. It's where the French Federation makes a lot of money in the evening. But it's also got a separate broadcast deal.

That means that the eyes of America, Europe, across the continents, they're on this session. So it's been given this big billing. Naomi Asaka, you mentioned the four-time Grand Slam champion who's playing tonight called it the popcorn session. Everyone knows that it's a very different part of the tournament because there is just one night session ticket that you have to buy separately for that match.

And so is there any explanation on why women have not been in that position, considering there's so much money and visibility at stake? They have had four matches previously, women in this night session slot. So not exclusively male, but there hasn't been a match in this slot that's a women's match since 2023. Tonight's will only be the fifth match out of, I think it's 60 now over the five years, six years that it's been going. So I think if you can do the maths, it's not 10% of these matches. Amalie Morezmo, you may remember 2006, Wimbledon champion is the tournament director. So it is a woman that's the tournament director.

She was also Andy Murray's coach for a little while, actually. she has effectively said that they're worried about the match going too fast. The problem is the French Open has one match in this night session. The US Open and the Australian Open have two matches in their night session, which means they spit it equally with a men's match and a women's match. Wimbledon doesn't have a separate night session. I'm just talking about the four grand sandshire, not the other rest of the year on the tour.

But Wimbledon has pretty much an equal men's women's order of play during the day. The French Open has one match and they want everybody to have what they're they say is maximum amount of tennis. So it could be three, four, five sets because it's a men's match. A woman's match potentially could only be two sets. And it is also part of this exclusive broadcast deal as well. That's interesting. So it's kind of like people won't get their value for money, putting it in kind of frank terms.

And I mean, what is the response to that being, whether it's from players or fans? There's a real mixture. There are, it is personal preference, really, for a lot of the players. There are some men who don't really want to play in that night session. they would prefer to play in the daytime. There are some female players who would rather get the match over first thing in the morning.

In tennis, it's quite weird. You don't really know what time your match starts unless you start in the first match, which is 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock first thing in the morning. After that, you're waiting to come on court after somebody else finishes. So you're never quite sure what time that is. The night session is supposed to start at a certain time,

but if the day session runs over, then you start whenever that day session finishes and they can change the crowd over. So some of the players, Ramina Sabelenko, Cocoa, Koko Gough, Jessica Baguola, Naomi Osaka. Some of them would like to be in the night session for equality reasons. It's the prime time match.

And I've covered the US Open where Serena Williams would be the first match, or Maria Sharapover in previous days, or Venus Williams or Renus Sabelenko. You would have a big woman's name as that first big match in the night session at the US Open in New York sometimes. So it's very different at the different ground slams. And this one, it has been for the last few years, a men's match in that slot. Can I read your message that came in from Colin? He says, unfortunately, the scheduling of the women's match in the prestigious night time slot does not signal a lasting change.

He goes on to say, it's only happening because the top men stars are no longer in the tournament. He mentions Alcarus, Sinad, Djokovic. They're not scheduled to play either, anybody else who might be in the running. If they were, one of them would be playing tonight rather than there being a women's match. The night session today, Arena Sabalenko, the world number one, a four-time Grand Slam champion, versus Naomi Asaka, who you may have recognized from some of the amazing couture outfits that she's wearing to come out onto court. She went to the Met Gala a few weeks ago. They are two women who demand this slot.

Isaka is also a four-time Grand Slam champion. I cannot see another match on the schedule today that would have been in that slot. But I take Collins' point that had there been a sinner, an Alperaz, or a Djokovic, I think it's very unlikely that this match would be in the place that it is. So what happens from here? we've heard the criticism. It is making headlines. People are talking about it. But this debate, as I understand it, has been going on for years.

It has been going on since it started in 2021. The only suggestion I think that vaguely would come, somebody has come up with is you play two women's matches. That's what I was wondering, yeah. In that night session. But their problem is they don't want the matches to run over late. So again, I mentioned that Australia and the US Open have this night session, but they have two matches.

And they don't mind finishing matches at 2 o'clock in the. morning and people stay until 2 o'clock in the morning to watch those and then they go home. But the French Open does not want to have that happen. They want matches to not run really too much past midnight. So they don't want to have the two matches in that slot. So you would have to start maybe a bit earlier. There are all sorts of logistics to this. And yes, the big problem is there's just one match in that session, which makes it much more difficult. And I guess the other argument is women play five sets, which I know some of them are quite keen to do. That's a whole other debate. Exactly. And with the French Open,

Do you think there's any softening in the stance? I don't think so, no. I would be interested to see what happens next year. Some of the women's players are high profile. They are big figures. They have huge numbers on social media. They are stars. But after we have just had this very dominant male section

of Federer Djokovic and Nadal, we have moved into the Carlos Arcarazianic Sinha era. There are big names on the women's side as well. And some of the tennis has been fantastic. Cocoa Gough played a great man. match yesterday. She was beaten. She was the defending champion. We've got an amazing 18-year-old Eva Jović who had a great match against Naomi Asaka, which Asaka came through to get to this point in the fourth round. So there are some brilliant women's matches that have been played. They're

compulsive. They're entertaining. They're thrilling. They're just not being put on the big stage. And then it becomes a vicious circle. If you're not exposed, you don't get that exposure, then people say, well, I don't know who these people are. Pass me the popcorn. Carthi, Nana Seagram, thank you so much for joining us. It is a golden age of tennis, that's for sure. And an interesting one that will be taking place tonight with Sabalenko and Osaka. You can go online to BBC Sport for all the latest updates on that. Now, the Royal Osteoporosis Society is warning that thousands of people, most of them women,

are being left at risk because promised osteoporosis clinics still haven't been delivered. Women are four times more likely to develop the condition than not. men, that's according to the NHS, largely because they lose bone mass rapidly during and after menopause. The Royal Osteoporosis Society has said that after two years of repeated pledges, there is still no plan, no progress, so patients are facing a postcode lottery. The clinics can prevent, they say, life-changing fractures, even deaths. There's just over half of the NHS trusts in England that have the specialist fracture liaison services, as they're called, in place. And it is tomorrow that will mark the two years since the government said every trust would have one by 2030.

So the society is upping the pressure. I'll be speaking to their CEO who is here. But first, I want to begin with Dr. Nicola Piel. She has been a consultant in metabolic bone medicine for more than 20 years. She was awarded the Queen's Award for Lifetime Achievement in the field of osteoporosis management. So perfectly placed. Welcome to both of you into our studio. We'll also have Irene Baker, who's in her 70s, who is osteoporosis,

I'll speak to in just a moment as well. But Nicola, down to Brass tax, what is osteoporosis? Thank you. So osteoporosis describes a condition in which bone loss leads to increased weakness of the bone and increases the susceptibility to fracture. Around one in two women over the age of 50 will experience a fracture as a consequence of osteoporosis. And those fractures occur easily. usually in the context of everyday activities, so a slip or a trip,

picking up a heavy bag of shopping, Wrigley grandchild. Those are the stories that we hear again and again. And once somebody has experienced their first fracture, they're at increased risk of subsequent fractures, and this is why we need the early diagnosis clinics in the form of the fractalais on services. And how serious can it get? I mean, I mentioned there some of the statements

from the society, for example, the Royal osteoporosis society, that clinics could prevent life-changing fractures, even death? Absolutely. So the most serious outcome with osteoporosis is out of a hip fracture. And that's about as serious as it gets.

It's on a par with having a stroke or a heart attack. And one in three people who are admitted to hospital with a hip fracture die within the next 12 months. And it doesn't have to be like that. Why does a broken bone potentially lead to death? So hip fractures tend to affect the most frail part of our society. So these are people who are already frail.

And a hip fracture is a big event. It requires surgery. And the, a lot of patients go on to develop infections and things as a consequence. And so this is a somewhat precarious population and there is this significant excess mortality. And those people who survive their hip fracture, very, very few of them get back to their previous level of independence.

I'm sure there'll be many that have gone through that with a loved one, many of them, probably their mothers, because it is mainly women as well that we're speaking about here. Craig Jones is the chief executive of the Royal Osteoporosis Society. So the government promised to set up dedicated clinics by 2030. I mentioned some of the figures there. That's four years. Is there still time for it to happen?

Well, no, not unless the rollout starts almost immediately. So during the election campaign, every political party said that they'd roll these clinics out across the country. And, you know, two years have gone by now. Former Health Secretary Westreting did say this would be one of his first. acts in post. It wasn't. And the number of people who've died following hip fractures that these clinics could have prevented is now 4,000 people. Most of them are women. So the Society for Radiographers, and we and lots of other people are saying, look, we're halfway through this Parliament. By now, on any credible path to make this policy happen, we'd have expected 24 of the 60

trusts missing these clinics to have been covered. Today, the total stands at zero. Zero. Zero. And of course, West Streeting is no longer imposed. It's James Murray, is the new Health Secretary. Some may have heard him this morning on the Today program. Have you had any contact with him yet? No, we haven't. I really hope we will. I know James Murray to be a good man who cares a lot about social justice,

so I hope he'll engage with this. You know, I wrote to West Streeting three months ago. I wrote to the department, and what I said was either this is going to happen. as you've said it will, you're going to implement these clinics right across the country by 2030, in which case, what can the objection be to publishing a timetable? But we also said, if what's happening here is that you can't do full implementation before 2030, for whatever reason, whether it's fiscal pressures or something else,

do a meaningful, serious, partial implementation up to 2030, commit to do the rest of the work after 2030, and we'll get behind you, three months later, there's been no reply to that letter and patients are drawing their own conclusions and what they're worried about is that this is a case of abandonment by default. Well, we did get a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They said this government remains committed to rolling out fracture liaison services by 2030 set out in our 10-year health plan and the women's health strategy.

In the meantime, we're investing in 20 new state-of-the-art Texas scanners across the country building on the first wave of 13. last year. The new machines will help diagnose fragile bones earlier and prevent painful life-changing fractures, particularly among older people and women who are disproportionately affected by osteoporosis. Craig, your response? Well, that's the same line they've used for the last two years and I'm afraid it doesn't stack up, it doesn't come under scrutiny and pass it. There have been a small number of dexas scanners put into the field, and I've thanked them for that and the charity has as well. But that's just a scan. A scan is not the same as a fracture liaison service. It's not the same as a

national rollout. As I said, 60 trusts miss these services. We'd have expected 24 to be covered by now. So far, none have been. This is about saving this pledge. And honestly, if James Murray and his team can't do everything before 2030, what I'm asking for is just an honest conversation with us about what they can do. Well, let's see what comes off that as we continue to discuss it. And I'll get into the specifics of a fracture liaison clinic as well, but I do want to speak to Irene Baker, who has osteoporosis, you're in your 70s, Ari, and you're very welcome. Tell me about what happened to you. Well, I originally broke a bone, the first one.

I had the first fracture of my elbow. I tripped over a tree route while I was out running. And that was all mended up, but actually nobody suggested at that time I should be screened for osteoporosis because we don't have a fracture of liaison service. And it was only five years later when I was finally diagnosed. And at that point, I had a Wrigley grandchild, a two-year-old Wrigley grandchild, picked him up, felt a pain. And that subsequently turned out to be three spinal fractures. Spinal fractures are the life-changing ones.

You know, your body changes shape. It's difficult to do things. It's a lot of pain. You stay in the same shape as where they broke. So that was difficult. And then I was sent for a dexter scan, and the dexter scan showed very severe loss of bone in my spine. It had obviously got worse over that five years and a very high fracture risk. And what age were you when that was happening, Irene, approximately?

Well, I think I was early 60s when I fractured my arm. Yeah. And then five years. Because it is interesting. just looking at some of the figures this morning, really what happens to the female body or can happen between menopause and postmenopause is quite radical, drastic for some when it comes to bone loss. So coming back to you, Nicola, a fracture clinic, for example, if Irene had been offered that earlier, let's say when her elbow was first fractured, what difference with that made, do you think? It could have made an enormous difference. So sadly, Irene's story is so typical. And this is this is, this. This is why we need that early intervention. The Fratj Liaison Service identifies every adult over the age of 50

who presents with a new broken bone. It assesses to identify which of those could be as a consequence of osteoporosis, investigates them in detail, including with a dexas scan and other tests as appropriate, and offers treatment to reduce the. the chance of having further fractures. And this, of course, would be a precursor to what Irene has had to go through, as she mentioned, also with spinal fractures. But some might say, by the time you get a fracture, you're already in trouble.

And there should be more focus on preventative care. For example, screening for osteopenia, where that's also where you've lowered the normal bone density, but not yet, osteoporosis. I'm wondering for yourself and also I'll come to you, Craig, why are you not calling for that? If we're talking about nearly 50% of those over 50, that could be affected. It's certainly true that in an ideal world,

we would have primary prevention as well as the secondary prevention that's offered through the fracture liaison services. However, it's absolutely not so to say that it's too late to do something by the time somebody presents with their first fracture. the treatments that we use in osteoporosis are hugely effective in reducing the incidence of vertebral fractures. So the first-line treatments are usually a weekly bisphosphonate tablet.

And for those people for whom that's not appropriate or they don't get along with them well, or if we monitor them and they're not getting a good response, then we would move on to an injectable form of treatment, which might be something which works in a similar way to the bisphosphonate treatments or in cases where people are identified as being a particularly high risk, we can use anabolic agents. Which are agents. These are agents which, they're not steroids,

these are agents which build new bone. And they're usually given as an injectable treatment over a period of between one to two years, depending on which treatment we're talking about. and they are really effective in improving bone density and reducing fracture risk. But the first-line treatments are also very effective. So even the once-a-week tablets reduce the chance of a vertebral fracture by 50% and some of the injectable treatments can reduce that risk by as much as 70% or more. But dexter scanning comes up with our listeners as well.

Here's one. Dexter scanning should be offered to all women. over 50. I had been asking for years, having met all but one criteria, I hadn't yet broken a bone. I broke my spine in three places and was then scanned and put on bone building treatment. It would save the NHS millions in hip replacements, hospital stays in physiotherapy. Prevention is always better than treatment. Kind of to my question, Craig. Any thoughts on that? Well, the question you asked about screening, we would have loved to have pushed a screening program as well, because all the evidence shows that will prevent tens of thousands of fractures too. But we've chosen to start on secondary

prevention. Why? Because all the other countries across the world have. So New Zealand has just finished a national rollout to 98% of its population. Japan, the older society in the world, has quadrupled their FLSs in the last couple of years. California. FLS is fracture liaison service. And California has better FLSs than anywhere in terms of quality. So Wales have just done it as well, really successfully. The politicians said we're going to roll them out to every health board. That's been done. Now, every year that this policy is just in a state. of suspension or paralysis in England means 2,000 more deaths following hip fractures that these clinics prevent. Most will be suffered by women. So what we're saying to ministers is it's not fair on this

vulnerable community to have a policy that exists in rhetoric but not in reality. These are people that feel locked in a waiting room. They're never going to come out of. So please just tell the truth about what's going to happen to this policy. We won't let the purve it be the enemy of the good, but thousands of lives are at stake. Let me, I'm just, you mentioned a figure of 2000 there. Where does that come from? Well, originally based on Department of Health data on the effectiveness of fracture liaison services,

triangulated with the statistic that Nikki mentioned about almost a third of people dying after a hip fracture. Let me go back to Irene. Can you tell us how those fractures impacted your life? Well, for the first six months, it was a lot of pain. That was the first thing to say. And even five, six years later, doing certain activities, I will still get muscle spasms because of the change in shape of my body.

That change in shape brings up, you know, some problems like getting clothes to fit. Because obviously, you're not a standard size. I wonder, Irene, if you could. explain what did change with your body? Well, where the fractures are, in my case, they're at the towards the top of my spine, they drop at the front but not at the back. That means you're, and they stay that way. They don't mend like a normal fracture.

So they stay in that deformed shape. So you start to develop a chytosis where your back is hunched. And, you know, despite doing every possible. exercise imaginable, I have a slightly hunched path. I can't do anything about it. That's the way my spine is now. So that causes a lot of muscle spasms or it did for me because of that change in shape. It pushes organs out because there's no space for them anymore. I've lost a bit of lung function because the thoracic fractures. So that's how it affects your shape. Yeah. And so I can tell it's a chronic condition that you're describing.

How has the treatment been for you? Well, originally I was put on a bisphosphonate tablet as Nicola has described, which surprised me because, you know, I was told it was very severe and had a high fracture risk. But when you referred back to your GP, which is what happened, that's all they can give you. And I was on that tablet for four years, but then unfortunately I fractured again.

I fractured my shoulder at this time and we still don't have a fracture of the Aison service so it was left to me really to try to sort it out I did ask my GP for a referral but I got in a huge, huge long queue for a Dexascan and an even longer wait for the results I think it was well over a year and a half in total so at that point I decided I couldn't wait

and I made the decision to change, move my care and I moved it to a different hospital trust. I did see a rheumatologist there fairly quickly, thankfully, and she put me on one of the injectables that Nicola has mentioned. You illustrate just what a difficult path it is, also particularly depending on where you live. Thank you very much for sharing that. Irene, Ion-Baker, who has osteoporosis

and has been through those various iterations due to, in part, she feels fracturally at all service not being available to her. I do also want to thank Dr. Nicola Peel, who's come into studio and Craig Jones, who is the CEO of the Royal Osteoporosis Society. Very interesting. A lot of people getting in touch as well, obviously touches a lot of our listeners. Thank you all so much. Thank you. Some of the messages. Hi, I had early menopause that ended in my mid-40s, had back pain when 60, had a dexterity.

a scan showed peri osteoporosis, no treatment. I'm now 70 and haven't been able to have a follow-up, so says June. What about H.R.T. Well, that's another question. Do you always ask your GP if you have questions on medical treatments. And another, my mother was dismissed with her excruciating back pain for three plus years by male doctors. Eventually, she paid for private scans and has advanced osteoporosis with multiple spinal fractures. I'm so angry with her GP, but she was worried to make a fuss in case she was treated more badly. Now, my next guest first went to see Take That as a nine-year-old. Now, 31 years later, she's on tour with them.

The three remaining members of the band. Gary Barlow, Howard Donald and Mark Owen. And she's on tour for the circus live. Singing, re-light my fire. Singer Zoe Burkett. You might know her, of course, from Pop Idol. Just a tender 16 years of age then. She's played Tina Turner in the West End, lead in the bodyguard.

You're so welcome. Hello, thank you. So how did you find out about getting the gig? Oh, do you know, I auditioned like everybody, you know. We all have to do auditions for everything. And I went in the room. They asked him to sing, We Like My Fire. And in the back of my head, I thought, this is the one that I really want.

I want this one. It's right up my street. I'm a massive take that fan anyway. Perfect song for my voice style. and then I got the call that I had it and honestly it's just we played two shows in Southampton Friday and Saturday night

and the response has just blown my mind Well I've been going through your TikTok and various social media profiles that also we had that little clip and we see some of it you were really emotional after that first night tell me why

multiple reasons to be honest it's been a long 25 years since student pop idol lots of knocking on doors lots of rejection lots of highlights as well

and fantastic moments but being out there with that many people with my favourite boy band of all time you know I don't want to do spoilers for people but you know I'm singing to be like my fire and I'm actually on fire

at the same time in a back cage the whole thing is just quite a dream and the emotion and I felt so overwhelmed and then, you know, the boys are so gorgeous. They said thank you to me on stage and the crowd gave me a message to you. And I just, all of the emotion just took over me to be honest. These are career highlight, right? Absolutely.

So I was thinking, because you went to see Take That when you were nine. I saw their first concert. What do you think that nine-year-old would have said? You know what? In 31 years, you're going to be up there dressed as a circus ring mistress in the middle of this most vibrant, exciting show. Yeah. She would say never in a million years.

I don't believe you. And again, just singing with them. And they're such warm human beings. They are the nicest men in showbiz I have ever met. I was also thinking, because you're 40 now, that the demographic, like let's talk about, there's lots of people that go to take that. But their core demographic are women 35 to 50 who grew up with them.

Yes, it's me. I was wondering what that was like to have all those women in the audience. To be honest, I think that is, been my main thing that I've been so wonderfully surprised about is the response online from women, the support. I'm a woman who's always championed women throughout my whole life, but having this response back from the hardcore take that fans has honestly been, I think, my highlight so far, because women over the years can, you know, certain women can say certain things. It could be jealous. It could be intimidating. But this collection of women, this community

that I have stepped into is incredible. Although I would say there might be a little bit of jealousy that you're up there and not there. Well, they're not a show on it. They've been very supportive, that's for sure. And, you know, as I also looked, I mean, can we describe the outfit briefly that you're wearing? So the outfit, I'm basically dressed as the devil. A sexy devil, may add.

I'm in a corset. I have this incredible kind of vintage piece and this big huge hooped skirt. I then have some devil horns and I fly in on this bat cage that is on fire. So anything that I do have to take that is going to be a nightmare because I want the same entrance for everything now. Your fans helped you pick your nails.

And my fans, they do. I've gotten a nail appointment tomorrow. I'm asking all women across the country to send me pictures of their nails and their costumes because it's the full thing, you know, it's the package. Can you describe your nails now? So my nails right now, they're circus nails. I've got a circus written on them.

I have a sad clown. I've got a happy clown. And I also, on my pinky, have real light my fire. And so you did. Of course, some people might remember that Lulu sang that on the song. So you hodge those shoes to step into that you did so beautiful. beautifully. Can you describe for me what it was like to step out that first night? I'm just talking about like from coming, I don't know, where do you come? Up, down, sideways? Yeah, I come through the stage,

but all of a sudden it just keeps carrying me on into the sky. I'm in the air singing on fire. What is feeling in your heart at that time, are you just concentrating on the song? What I love is it's really quick because I'm not on from the beginning of the song. The dancers and obviously the band take that are on stage. So they have about one minute to drop the song. stage, get the cage on that I'm in, set myself in the cage, light the cage. Next thing I know, I'm in the air, so I haven't actually got time to get nervous or think about anything. All of a sudden, I'm just like, and I'm there. And when you come off? When I come off is, that's the moment of what just happened. Did that happen? I actually, I had an instant cry. And I've just

met the dresser for the first time as well. And she was like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, sorry, I'm just super overwhelmed. I was like, it's a drink of water going. I was sweating in this corset. It was unbelievable. Well, just have the best time. I do need to let people know you will be performed, would take that on their circus live tour and one of the fastest selling concerts, I think, that there ever was for them. It's going to be around the UK, Ireland as well, until the 4th of July. Have a ball. Thank you. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that

have often asked me, is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened. Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories, from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction cases. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny, cold cases. Listen on BBC Sounds.