Woman's Hour - Glasgow fire, Sibling relationships, Artist LR Vandy

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

**This programme has been edited since originally broadcast**This month a legal case in the High Court has shed light on an industry of so-called 'Chatters' who work with online creators. 'Chatters,' are people, often women, who chat to fans of creators or models on subscription platforms such as OnlyFans - and other platforms - where users can pay creators, often for adult content, and can message them directly for a fee. The fans think that they are speaking directly to the creator or model. The court heard that many of those messages aren’t actually written by the creators themselves, but by these chatters, agency workers, whose purpose is to keep conversations going. Anita Rani is joined by Lara Bowman, a freelance journalist who has been reporting on the story.For many of us, our relationships with our siblings will be the longest of our lives, sometimes closing in on a century. Whether loving or fraught, competitive or codependent, these dynamics are integral in shaping us. Author and journalist Catherine Carr says it’s time we acknowledge their significance in our lives. She joins Anita to discuss her new book Who’s the Favourite? The Loving, Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships.Women in Glasgow are pulling together after a fire near the city’s Central Station forced several female‑run salons and small businesses to shut their doors. For nearly two weeks, nail technicians and hairdressers have been unable to trade after their businesses were destroyed by the blaze. But amid the shock and uncertainty, a powerful network of local women has stepped in—rallying support, fundraising, and even donating equipment to help these business owners get back on their feet. Anita speaks to Carolyn Currie from Women's Enterprise Scotland, a membership body for businesswomen and Carina McCreedy who runs Bonos Nail Salon and who has received some of that help. The artist LR Vandy’s new exhibition Rise has opened at Yorkshire Sculpture Park. Lisa has transformed the space into an immersive environment using her trademark rope and found materials. The show explores the themes of power, cultural traditions and international trade and at its centre is a monumental maypole, celebrating communal gathering, ritual and collective dance. Lisa joins Anita to talk about what it was like to become a full-time artist later in life and how she challenges traditional representations of women’s bodies with her rope work.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Women's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the program.

A fire in central Glasgow a couple of weeks ago destroyed a building that was home to small businesses, many of which were run by women. Well, a powerful network of women has stepped up to help some of the female business owners in their time of need. Women supporting women. We'll be hearing from two of them. Artist L. R. Vandy is exhibiting her first,

major solo exhibition at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park. It's called Rise and it's a huge milestone and achievement for any artist and Lisa only really gained recognition and committed to being a full-time artist 10 years ago. Rise explores themes around power, history and she works with rope as both a material and a metaphor and Lisa will be here to tell us all about it. And the longest relationship of your life will likely be your sibling. Apparently 8,000, 80% of us have them, and a new book called Who's the Favorite, examines the dynamics of the sibling relationship in all its forms, not excluding only children.

Catherine Carr, the author will be here to talk to me about it. But also this morning, I'd like to ask you about your sibling relationships. How were you treated compared to your brothers or sisters? Were you given labels? Did they stick? Are you close to them? Estranged? Maybe you lost a sibling.

What impact did that have on your life? this morning, brothers and sisters, we're talking about you. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website, or you can WhatsApp me on 0300-100-444. And of course, if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the program, your thoughts always welcome the text number once again, 84844.

But first, this month, a legal case in the High Court has shed light on an industry of so-called chatters, who work with online creators. Chatters are people, often women, who chat to fans of creators or models on subscription platforms like OnlyFans and other platforms, where users can pay creators often for adult content and can message them directly for free.

The fans think that they're speaking directly to the model or the creator. Well, the court heard that many of those messages are actually written by the creators themselves, but these chatters, agency workers whose purpose it is to keep the conversations going. So that's their role. Well, I'm joined now by Lara Bowman, who's a freelance journalist,

who's been reporting on this story. Hello, Lara. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi. Tell us more about these chatters. I tried to explain it there, but I think it sounded slightly convoluted even to me. So if you can explain it to us, that'd be great.

Yeah, no, it is. I remember when I sort of came across this recently, it didn't be a while to get my head on it. basically what came out of the court judgment was that the bulk of revenue made on only fans is through sort of people sort of customers messaging who they think are the creators so how it will work is that you know they'll be messaging and then they might pay for supposedly personalized content often but obviously you know often especially with popular creators that can be sort of 2,000 to 300,000 fans.

So it's just not feasible for them all to, for them all to, you know, for one person to be messaging all of them. Yeah. So they're sort of outsourced to agencies, and then you'll have chatters sort of round the clock, pretending to be the models, and keeping those conversations going. But obviously to be able to do that,

they have to sort of store data about customers. so it sounds like they're the same person. So that can be anything from sort of payday to who they live with, to what their work is, to sort of preferences, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, like kinks or whatever they're into, basically.

Yeah. Whatever they're, whatever the woman's hour. We can get away with quite a lot. The audience know. So the audience know, but also so many of us don't know, because we don't access these sites. How central are they to how only fans and other platforms like this actually work behind the scenes? Well, I mean, so it's seemingly, like the scale of the numbers that was just coming out in this judgment was quite big.

So basically it's a dispute between two software companies. But for instance, like there were some agencies mentioned who claimed to be sort of managing relationships with like a million fans. And that's just one agency, if that makes sense. I think we should have actually we're really interested in finding out who the women are who are doing this job but very quickly because you've mentioned it like what is the dispute that's happening

why is this in the high court? It's a little bit technical but basically OnlyFans is built just for one person to log onto one account so these software companies allow chatters to be logged in to lots of different models accounts at one time and chatting to lots of people

So who are the people doing these jobs? What do we know about their lives? So I think it varies quite a lot. So there has been quite a lot reporting that it is often outsourced to more developing economies where people aren't paid very much to be able to do it. I spoke to a chatter base in London who is quite educated.

She has a degree from Edinburgh, but she specialises in like smart girl stuff. if that makes sense. So I think it does... What do you mean? Smart Girl stuff? Shakespeare is a sort of kink, apparently. So she does more sort of premium content, which means she has a bit more freedom to create scripts.

I think some agencies are quite strict with chatterers sticking to a certain script, if that makes sense. but she's found this niche where she will chat to people who like more sort of intellectual highbrow conversation

what did she tell you about what the work involves then day to day? Yeah so it works for her because she's got an autistic son so it means she can log in and log off quite freely but basically how it works is the messaging is free

so she'll be chatting away and then you'll have a bank of content that's not on the creator page and you'll offer it to them for a fee or a tip does that make sense? So she'll be sort of

chatting them up, the wonderful word, as the creator and then be like would you like this special content, you know, if you, for like $100 or $100 or does that make any sort of sense? Yeah, so basically she's pretending to be the creator. So whoever's talking to her think they are talking to the picture of the model that they

think they're talking to. She's providing whatever service they require, whatever chat they want, whether it's Shakespeare or whatever kink they're into. And then she upsells. Exactly. Okay. All right. So what kind of techniques are used?

And is it mainly women? doing this job? I mean, I don't actually have numbers on that. She said she only, the other chatter she knows are all women. But I think it can vary more. You know, there's quite a lot of people who do it in the Philippines. But I don't have numbers on that in all honesty. But yeah, I think definitely her little niche, she said, seems to be mainly women doing it. How much money is she making? So she's on a base salary, I think it's a freelance contract over sort of 28 to 30K, but because of commission she got 50, 60 last year, she said.

And supporting her life and her child. Yeah, because she was a copywriter before she had her son. And that did not work when she was having to look after them when he was really young. And the people you spoke to, do they feel like they're the deceiving the user? and the people they're speaking to, because they're pretending to be somebody they're not. Yeah, I think she used this phrase, like she was like, I do live in like a sort of fog of shame.

I think she does feel really conflicted around it, but equally got to this point where it was her priority was her kid, but it does make her feel quite icky? Does that make any sort of sense? Yeah, and also just because you spoke to quite a few people, what does it do to them, because I'm thinking emotionally, psychologically, spending hours because a lot of these transactions, these conversations,

are quite intimate, aren't they? Exactly, yeah. I mean, there was a really interesting comment that was made about how actually sometimes the chatters might get a little bit attached to the punters, if that makes sense, especially if they're very regular. And, yeah, and she said, you know, I will actually pass them on to someone else

because it makes me feel really weird that if that makes sense. But also it can be a bit, it can make them feel quite uncomfortable sometimes depending on what's being said on the other side. I think it's a really complicated relationship. Because also often customers will send pictures and videos. So they sort of have an image and they know quite a lot about them and often, you know, and they're storing this data about them. which I think, yeah, one girl who we called Rosie also said made her feel quite weird.

The fact, she's logging all this information about these people for these companies. I think it's a really complicated situation. I don't think it's most of the, if I'm really honest, I think most of the people I spoke to, it would not be that first option of a job. But, you know, situations arise. And their purpose is to keep them engaged on behalf of whoever is the, you know, the actual creator of the OnlyFans account in order for these people, the users, if you like, to spend money. And then obviously the creator gets cut, the agency gets a cut, the chatter gets a cut. It's this, you know, it's sort of, sorry.

It's an economy, yes, yes, it's a business model. It's a business model. And it isn't just a UK industry, because people are. doing this around the world, aren't they? It's an international economy. And like people working in the UK will chat to people overseas. And often it's the opposite. So people in more developing economies will be chatting to often Western customers.

And also the model allows sort of 24-hour chatting, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, earlier this month, the BBC World Service Program, TechLife, spoke to a woman in the Philippines, actually, who works as a chatter, who told them about what her job entails. Her words have been voiced up. Have a listen. So we ask their name, their age, are they comfortable? And then we ask, what's their work? So basically we ask what's their work? Because that's when we could see how much we could make sales out of them.

For some agency, they do have targets per shift. So for example, for this model, you have to make $300 sale because I was handling several models. Maximum is four models in one shift. The chatter also talked about whether she finds some elements of her job challenging. Actually, it's odd because I was actually joking around before. Like, I was made for this job. It's too easy for me.

Because I feel like I do enjoy talking to people. And it's this job that I get to know more people. It's kind of eerie when you think about it, because you'll have to do sexting a lot of times, like several times in an hour. After the sexting part, you'll get to know them more. and at the end of the day it's kind of tiring because you know that you're just there to pretend as the model but then you get a glimpse of what they really are in real life

they are really nice people they are good people it's just they are really lonely so yeah I think that's the saddest part for me there working as a chatter Lara is this the kind of thing you heard from other women as well yeah that was actually listening to that it really brought it was a lot of of similar themes. Because actually something I didn't mention was that, you know, Chatters do talk about the loneliness of the customers. And when we were saying, in particular,

it really, also she struggles quite a lot with loneliness. And it was this sort of weird merging of loneliness, you know. And yeah, like a lot of very similar themes on that one. And that's sort of this. So. Yeah, sorry, no, go for it. No, no, I was rambling. I do that, sorry. No, no, it's a good place. We like it.

We like an informative ramble. Do you get the sense that this is a niche part of the platform or that actually this is the engine driving a lot of money being made? I mean, no, I, I, what the court case seemed to indicate was this was big. And if you've got, if you think about it, if, you know, big creates, have 300,000 fans. Yeah, they're not going. There's no way for them to manage that.

And that seems to be where the money is being made. This is fascinating stuff. Lara, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. Lara Bowman there. And we approached OnlyFans for a comment this morning, but haven't yet heard back. However, the BBC Tech Life program reported OnlyFans, Terms of Service say their contracts are only

with content creators. They also say they don't endorse any third-party platforms and they're all legal responsibility for uploaded content rests with the creators. Now, to a topic that affects almost all of us, whether you have them, you're a parent of them, or your friends or colleagues have them, siblings. Apparently 80% of us are a sibling, full, half or step, and for many of us, these relationships will be the longest we have lasting, but maybe up to a century. And whether those connections are loving or fraught, competitive, codependent, they are alliances that are so formative and important in shaping who we are. Well, in her new book, Who's the Favorite?

The author and journalist, Catherine Carr says it's time we discuss the significance of siblings in our lives and take a closer look at those bonds. Welcome to Women's Hour, Catherine. Thank you for having me. So this was our talking point that I put out. Unsurprisingly, lots of messages are coming in already. But before we read some of those out, why did you decide to look at this particular relationship? Well, it was probably during the pandemic.

I was having a conversation with someone on the phone. Jane Garvey actually used to present this programme. And I was talking about my two sisters. I'm the middle of three girls, which could be a book on its own, right? And I was saying, I want to make a podcast of my own. I want to do something of my own. I could make a blooming podcast about my sisters. Their lives, where they worked, had a lot of drama associated, good stories.

And she said, no, no. No, no, no, that would be a bit odd. Don't do that. But you should make a podcast about siblings, because did you know it's potentially the longest relationship of your life, just as you said. And in that moment, it was like I'd been told a secret, which is hidden in plain sight,

the fact that I could know somebody, my sisters, for 90, if our genes play out the way, I hope they do, 90 plus years. And that those relationships go from vertical, oldest, middle baby, let's say, youngest, oldest, biggest, smallest, to horizontal, being peers and friends and supporters. My big sister's here with me today, holding my hands. And we're on the same page now as peers and friends, and then we might move into old age together.

It blew my mind. So that's what I did. I have to say, I really appreciate the full circle moment of you name-checking the origin story with Jane Garvey. So it's perfect that you're here to talk about it. It's a favourite topic. You start the book there, which is birth order. Yeah.

Why do we remain focused on this? how much of our identity really does birth order actually account for? Well, all of the experts I spoke to sort of ended up the conversation when I asked them about birth order, saying it's really not true, but it's really kind of always true. And I think that's where birth order land, because you can't account for your whole identity just by looking at the moment you arrived in a family. That's sort of a little bit bananas. But what you can say for certain, which I think does have kind of fundamental knock-ons in the rest of your life,

is that the first-born child is born into an adult environment. Yeah. With really not very tired parents, probably quite optimistic, quite hopeful, quite full of plans, quite idealistic. And that child will be funneled and showered with attention and resources. Everything they have will go to that first child. The second child is born into a family, where the person that they might model and who might mentor them

or resent them or show them how to do things is probably a two- or a three-year-old. So they're born into a world of childish language. in child as things, where the resources have to be split and diluted, and attention has to be sort of fought for. So I think you can say that. And then if you're the baby, I spoke to one therapist who uses birth order theory in his work, and he said he's sat in therapy sessions with hedge fund managers and barristers who are powerful people in their fields.

But if they're the baby and something happens at work, which is emotional, they can be the least resilient. They've never been displaced and had that emotional shock of another baby coming along. excuse me, and replacing them in their mother's affection, so they can be the most wobbly. So it kind of always is true. Oh no, we'll be asked to put down our birth order on our CVs now, won't we? You do make it clear, though, in the book,

which I think is really important, that the birth order tropes are Western. They are, and I think that's really important to say. And obviously, I've sort of written a book where every chapter could have been a book. Yeah, you see what I mean. I mean, very dense. It's fascinating. Yeah, and so I did want to acknowledge that, of course, in some parts of the world, So in the West, let's say, there are studies which show, and I'll put this in inverted commas,

that the firstborn is, quote, unquote, cleverer than the rest of the children. That's generally because of the resources and the fact that they might have more attention, they might learn to read earlier, they might have more attention on their education and so on. But in other parts of the world, the firstborn might be asked to go out to work, to earn money to support the family. And in those cultures, where that happens, the second one might end up being, quote, unquote, the cleverest because they're allowed to stay in education for longer, to then support the family later with a better fade job.

So it's really nuanced. Absolutely. Like you said, there's so much in the book. So we're going to pick some topics that I think are really interesting to get into. We'll start with labels. Yeah. Because we've asked our audience about the labels that they have and they are letting us know and I'm going to come to some of those.

But what's yours and what difference do they make? Well, as I said, I'm the middle of three. I'm only 20-something months which will kill me for not getting this. right, younger than my older sister, but there's a whopping six years between me and the baby. I would say in some ways I'm a classic middle that I do avoid conflict, but you would misunderstand that by thinking that's peacemaking

because it's not. I sort of avoid the tricky conversations and that doesn't lead to greater peace. It just sort of can sometimes keep things going in the way that they always have that might not always be great, whereas my older sister is actually better at tricky conversations and so probably provides more peace So probably slightly peacemaker, bookworm and a bit bossy.

So I'm going to read one of our messages out. I was labelled the clever one. My sister was labelled the pretty one. Consequently, I grew up thinking I was plain. My sister grew up thinking she was unintelligence. Neither of these things was true. My brother, the youngest, was the boy. So he was definitely the favourite.

But the weight of expectation on him to be like my dad was quite a burden because he was nothing like my dad. Labels are a liability in my experience. I'm no longer in touch with either of my heart. siblings. Wow, that's so interesting. And I think that's one of the things that I learned when writing the book is that as parents, the influence you can have on the siblings sub-system, if you like, if you think of the family as a big system with the parents or parent or carers, and then the siblings as a little sort of organisation or dynasty of their own, the parents or adults in charge can really squash and distort those relationships by trying to do something nice, by saying,

gosh, aren't you clever? Oh, you're very good at sport. You're the artist. Actually, that can be quite confining. And what siblings do sort of subconsciously is they de-identify from each other. So if one is known for being clever, what we do as siblings is think, well, that hat has been taken. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have a kid. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just

a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I can't have that. I'm not going to be loved for being also clever. So we sort of look for something else which is unique.

And then we lean into that. And if the parents compound that by saying, oh, yes, you are that thing, it can be quite stifling. And what we find is when we go back to the home, we've all done it, right, we go home for Christmas. We're a fully fledged adult out in the world, presenting radio programs or doing whatever we do in our jobs. And then you can go back home and you find yourself acting out your 15-year-old or seven-year-old self, sort of, this is so weird because your siblings are there and you get in these funny grooves of your old roles and labels that were given by the parents and confirmed by the way your family dynamic worked. And the

challenge, I think, from writing the book is how do we as adults put down those labels where they're constricting and ask our siblings to see all of us? I think there's so much interesting stuff in the book. So one of the things that struck me is how you can revert to those labels when you're in the family home back with your parents, but actually you also have a very different relationship when you're away from your parents. Yes, exactly, because you're free. The sort of influence of the parents makes you act in one way. but if they're not around, it's easier to sort of relate as you are in the rest of your life. You live with your siblings probably for a maximum 18 years

and you live a long life with friends and partners and colleagues who might not even have any idea that you have this relative identity. So I'll give you an example. Yes. Sometimes people say, someone might say to them at work, oh, you at the conference, Dave, I think you should give the keynote speech. And it's quite a common response to sort of think, oh, they wouldn't ask me if they knew how good my older brother was.

at public speaking, which is such a crazy thing to think to compare yourself to one other person on the planet that nobody else who's in your company knows about and no one understands this relative comparative thing that's between you. It makes no sense. And yet it's defining you. And it is defined.

And how you portray in life. Wow. Another thing that came up in that message I read out is estrangement. And I quote your book, blood ties do not necessarily guarantee intimacy. You say these relationships go undiscussed, but it's something that's very much become part of public thinking.

We're seeing it around us, aren't we? Prince Harry and Prince William, the Beckham's, the Murdox. So how prevalent is it? And can we later repair any strains or reverse the sense of distance? I think that's such an interesting point because I spoke to a woman who wrote a book about estrangement in 2021, and she wanted to put that word in the title. And her publisher in 2021 said,

don't do that. No one will know what that means. And here we are in 2020, 2006, with the stories you've just talked about, really public, really painful stories of estrangement that have shone a light on siblings generally, not just sibling relationships that have gone wrong. Apparently, 28% of sibling relationships go through a period of estrangement, and it's not binary, it's not sort of all or nothing. It tends to be often weaving in and out of intimacy, periods of cutoff and distance with periods of closeness. But what those people who work in the field of estrangement, which is not how it's portrayed, by the way, on social media, often very abrupt and quite harsh. They say it's hard to achieve a difficult sort of peace if you're estranged from a sibling. The way they talk about those public stories is with real gratitude, even though they're sorry, of course, for the people.

Because, and this is really the thrust of the book, they say that we don't talk enough about siblings generally. We don't have the fluency or the language that we have. for romantic relationships or relationships mother to child, father to child. And because we don't have a fluency to talk about siblings in a sort of meaningful, psychological way, we don't get to the estrangement bit. We don't get to the bereavement bit, all the really, really painful, difficult, beautiful bits because we're kind of stuck on first base.

Yeah. Genuinely, like, I've been thinking about my, I've just got a little brother. And so it's kind of put a whole new spin on my relationship. And I actually was like, I've got a phone. I've got a phone my brother. So let's get to the difficult bits because you end the book and you talk about bereavement

and the impact of losing a sibling. And why is sibling grief often overlooked? I think because if the parents of the person who's died, if we're talking about children, are still around, we recognise that as a kind of titanic grief, right? Yeah. We acknowledge it for sort of the hardest thing in the world that it is. or if that person who's died is older and have children of their own,

we think about that child losing a mother or a father, and that is awful as well. But as I said at the beginning of this interview, with your siblings you've moved from that vertical, oldest middle baby, whatever the configuration is, to being horizontal, hopefully, if you've managed to get to a place of friendship, if it allows, if your relationship allows.

And that means you are on a plane with somebody who hold some of your history, only that person holds your history and we sort of wrongly but also beautifully assume that that person is going to always be there we're going to have that maybe 90 years with them and we're going to be able to reach back

to the car seat when we were seven or silly words we made up or a memory from grandma's house and they're going to be able to light up and say oh I remember that and when they go they can if there's only two of you take that history with them

yeah they're the only person who knows that about you. Even if it's an imperfect recollection, because everyone's memories are different, right? They're slippery and they're from different points of view all the time. But that's the paradox of siblings. We so want to be known as people. And our siblings are one of the best people that we can reach to to be like,

do you remember and do you know, I always wanted to be this, didn't I? And so those people I've spoken to, and I talk about a boy in the book called Callum Fairhurst. He's not a boy now. He's a man who lost his brother Liam when they were teen. teenagers and the story of him kissing his brother goodbye will turn your heart inside out. But what he discovered was that there wasn't support for these so-called forgotten mourners. Often sort of asked to be strong, oh, you must look after your mother, you must look after

the bereaved children and sort of sidelined in their grief. And so he set up an organisation to support siblings. And also to tackle that sort of, it could have been me feeling, which He has flipped beautifully to be, it could have been me. And therefore, I'm going to embrace the joy that there is in my life. And sort of, not in a weird way, but try and make the most of it for Liam, his brother. And a lot of people I spoke to you arrive there, even that chokes you to think of it. It's very, there are so many moving bits in the book. It's also very funny as well.

And so much of this book will just make you put it down and think about your own life, walk around the house. there's impossible what I was doing. Can we talk about glass siblings? Yes. Because you dedicate a whole chapter to glass siblings. Tell us what you mean by that. I hadn't heard the expression before. I don't know if you had.

It was new to me when I started thinking that in the chapters, I wanted to make space for only children. I wanted to make space for bereavement. And I definitely wanted to make space for those families where a child might have an additional need or a disability because I realised early on, as I said about first and subsequent, children that it's a lot about resource allocation. And if you have a child who has greater needs at any one point, be that through illness or disability or something else, the resources have to be

funneled to that child, right? And that will have an effect on the other children. So this expression glass siblings comes from the feeling of the child who doesn't need the extra help, feeling like they're being looked straight through. And I then checked it out with other people that I know who've grown up alongside siblings with disabilities and they said it is. It's a word that they use and it's very difficult. You're asked for more sometimes as that sibling whilst being given a little bit less

of the attention and the bandwidth. And it's not a sad chapter. There's so much joy in it and so much love in it and so much to learn and to hold on to. But again, because we don't talk about siblings enough, we don't talk about that enough. Well, it's so eye-opening.

Every chapter, it's like, oh, come, Of course, like, because for everything you're saying, has it made you reassess your own sibling relationship and your own children as well, how you treat your children? Completely. It has made me think about my children an awful lot, especially with the labelling. I'm now a little bit more assiduous about. Now they laugh at me because they're older. They're 19 and 17. I'll be like, you're very, and they're like, yes, and I'm also this, this and this. I know what you're going to say. But it does make me reassess my sibling relationship. We grew up separately for a time and that set the scene for me thinking. intentionally about how to be close as adults. I don't think it makes us that extraordinary because I think all adult siblings are fighting to get back together almost in some ways. But it does make me treasure them more

and it does make me really determined to think it's not perfect our relationship. I don't think any relation, all relationships are processes. It makes me more determined to see that process through to get to old age, God willing, and have them with me. Well, it's beautiful. Thank you. And you can, it's called, and who's the favourite?

It's by Catherine Carr, the loving, messy realities of sibling relationships. It's published today. Congratulations. Thank you. And you can also listen to it in Catherine's delicious voice as well, the audiobook. Thank you for coming in to talk to me. Thank you for having me. I'm going to read out some of your lovely messages coming in.

My brother is the love of my life. I treated him badly when I was young as I was jealous of him and his intrusion into the family when I was 12. I've tried to make up for it over the. past 50 years or so. Another one here saying I'm a twin with an identical sister and a younger brother. Growing up my twin and I were always unavoidably compared to each other, of course, which resulted in a lot of tension and conflict between us in adolescence. As adults, we're now very close, but it had a huge effect on my sense of self-worth and how I measure my achievements even into adulthood, despite the best efforts of my parents to treat us equally. We're going to have to

do a whole special about it, Catherine. You can have to come back. Thank you so much, Catherine Carr. Now, we want to hear from you for a forthcoming program. As the days are getting longer and evenings brighter, thank goodness, do you have a light-related ritual? Do you get up with the dawn for a specific reason or activity? Or perhaps your job is easier or more fulfilling when there's more light. Now that we're coming out, the darkness of winter days, we'd like to hear about your sunlight-related rituals. Get in touch in the usual way and leave your contact details if you'd like to come on and talk about your experience. 84844, the text number.

Now, the fire in Glasgow City Centre, which has caused the central station to be shut for nearly two weeks, also forced several female-run small businesses to shut their doors. Many have been destroyed by the flames, but amid that shock and devastation, a powerful network of local women has stepped up, rallying support, fundraising and even donating equipment to help business owners get back on their feet.

Well, here to talk about that is Carolyn Curry from Women's Enterprise Scotland, a membership body for businesswomen, and Carina McCready, who runs Bonos Nail Salon. Carolyn and Carina, welcome. I'm going to come to you first, Karina. Can you take us back to that Sunday?

Where were you when you first heard that there was a fire? So I was actually at my mum's house for Sunday lunch. I had no idea anything was going on until my phone just started going crazy. And clients had obviously seen some of the videos. that were going live of the smoke coming out of the vape shop. And it was maybe about an hour after it started, I think.

I can't even completely remember that I saw the videos and started to realize that what was actually going on. When did you realize that your business had been impacted? Tell us what had happened. So where my salon was, it was on the fourth floor of the building and like kind of slightly further along the top. So sort of diagonally above. where the fire originated.

So I kind of thought for the first few evers, it might have actually been okay, but I think it must have been about seven or eight o'clock. It was the second floor has these really, really high windows, and I could see flames coming out of them. And at that point, I realized, even if my salon wasn't directly impacted, there was absolutely no way I'd be able to get back up to it.

And then there was later that night, I saw the billboard collapse on top of the roof, and I knew there was just absolutely nothing left at that point. Devastating. Tell us about your business and what it meant to you. Like when did you set it up and how much effort had gone into building that? So I've been in the industry for four years, but I'd only opened that salon in November. I'd always worked part-time and nails alongside other jobs, alongside studying and stuff.

And it was only in November that I'd taken the leap to go fully self-employed and open my own space. It's named after my dog, who comes to the salon with me every day. so it was really you know it felt like it was just completely mine everything in there um all my sock the decor it was all a culmination of my own efforts and also my friend holly and she also obviously lost everything in the fire as well and yeah it was just it was this great little space where you know i would see my clients every single day and you know a lot of them they become your friends they become your confidence like and it's you going it alone you're you're a your savings?

Yeah, all the savings, all the money that been put into. You know, I'd operated at a loss for quite a significant period of time just to try and make the business what I wanted it to be. You know, we lost art that people had brought in for is we lost all the furniture, all of the stock that we put into. Even like some of my dog's favourite toys were in there, so there's sentimental things there as well. Carolyn, I'm going to bring you in here from Women's Enterprise Scotland.

We don't know the exact gender makeup of the owners of those businesses, but a lot of women were running hair and nail salons. Tell us a little bit about the building and why women were attracted to that space. I mean, we've heard there from Karina about it being, you know, her small business that she's set up in November, like she'd built up to this moment. Was that kind of a story that you heard quite a lot?

Yeah, we heard that an awful lot, you know. And I think what attract women in particular to a building, like that is the sense of community. So there is that sense of being part of a wider small business community with others who share a similar ambition to strike out in their own and their belief in their talents and their skills that they want to really create

something of value. It's that sense of motivation and shared ambition that is quite hard to describe and articulate. But you know, when you're amongst women like Karina, it's really tangible. and it's very admirable. But I think as she's outlined, it's a hard fault for road. We know from our research

that women tend to start up on average with about half the capital of their male peers, as Karina's saying, it takes a while to build up your business, to manage the costs that you've taken on, and to make that business viable. So, you know, you start up with less capital.

It teaches you longer to build that business. and then you are more vulnerable than others to these shocks that can happen. I mean, none of us think something like that is going to happen to us as individuals or business owners. It is such a shock. And businesses led by women are sadly more vulnerable because it can take them longer to build up that capital and they have less assets at their disposal to respond. And therefore, back to that sense of community.

is so important when you're starting out. It makes such a difference to people's lives. Karina, what kind of support have you had from the beauty community? It really has been almost overwhelming the support that we've had, whether it's been, you know, nail technicians that have followed on Instagram, just, you know, kind of mutually over the years, they're reaching out with spare bits of their kit. Actually, Tammy from NAF salon started up like a sort of a donation hub

for people to go collect things that they needed. Brands have reached out, even, that I've never interacted with before have reached out and offered stuff to us. And two of my friends, who also nail technicians, Lauren and Shan. Shan also owns a brand called Nailcraft. She replaced my entire kit and they both set up a GoFundMe page for me as well, which without that, I would absolutely not be anywhere close to getting set back up again. I have no idea what I would have done.

Because I was too embarrassed to set up my own, to be totally honest. So I'm really grateful they did that for me because I really don't know what I would have done otherwise. Caroline, what support is available from your organisation and others? Yeah, there is a great community response to this. And I think as Karina said, she's received some of that response. So there is support available. There are lots of organisations there to support businesses generally, and particularly women.

So there have been offers of business premises, of hot desking, of being able to come in. For us in particular, we are an option. for profit. So if anybody goes to our website, which is thewomen's business centre.com, you can sign up there for free and then you can ask for an emergency one-to-one session

and we'll happily, you know, speak to you about your particular situation. And I do just want to say exactly as Karina has highlighted, there will be so many women sitting there overwhelmed by what has happened, feeling, you know, to say, some extent, a sense of shame that it has happened to them and just not knowing what to do.

And many of these women-led businesses are not in touch with formal business support structures. And it's so easy to fall between the cracks at a time like this. So, you know, to anybody that's listening, there is a whole community out there that wants to support you. So, you know, please get in touch with us or speak to your friends, your family. please don't feel overwhelmed because there is support. Everybody really is rooting for you to succeed as brave and courageous small businesses. So please don't feel like that. Carolyn Curry and Karina McCready, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning.

And the council told us that they're still at the early stages of the demolition process with a focus on completing it as safely and quickly as possible and are engaging. with affected businesses to offer them support at this time. Another one of your sibling messages. My sister and I are a classic sibling age gap, two and a half years apart. I'm the eldest. We've been extremely close our whole lives, apart from a dodgy teenage stage.

We're now 49 and 46 live hundreds of miles apart, but speak almost daily. We were labelled as the smart one and the pretty one. The pretty one is actually wildly successful and has an MBA. And the smart one keeps telling everyone she's just well read how we didn't end up jealous of each other is a miracle. Instead, we support every single part of each other and each other's biggest fans.

We'd love to hear it. 84844. Keep coming in. Now, my next guest has always been a maker. But just under 10 years ago, she stepped into being a full-time artist and sculptor. Now, Ella Vandy is exhibiting her first solo museum show. It's called Rise, and it's on now at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park. Ella, also known as Lisa, has transformed the space

into an immersive environment using her trademark rope and found materials. It explores the themes of power, cultural traditions, history and trade and challenges the more traditional representations of the female body so often found in sculptures. And I can't wait to speak to her. Lisa, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for inviting me. Congratulations.

Thank you. How does it feel to have reached this stage of a project where it's now open to the public? I still feel like I need to be pinched, actually, because, I mean, to be asked to, create an installation, it's a rare opportunity because often you're doing what I would call selling shows but to be given the opportunity by Yorkshire Sculpture Park to create an installation is something very, very different

and very exciting. And you made some of those pieces on site? Well, thanks to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park because their curatorial team and production team are just incredible and I had five technicians to work with and we created four three and a half metre high sculptures in two weeks. Lots of people are going to come and see it. But we are on radio, so describe it to us a little bit.

So really, this is a story about dance. I've been working with rope for a while now, and this is to sort of subvert the idea of the negative connotations associated with rope. I mean, trade, empire, slavery could not. have gone on without rope. So, I mean, the irony is that I'm a Nigerian descent descent working in a Chathamistoric dockyard in a place that used to create rope for the empire.

I mean, they're very well aware of that and can see the irony. And they have embraced my work and in fact show a piece of work there. Important. Yeah, very important. I mean, my studio is within Chathamistoric dockyard and they have a working ropery there

that's been making rope the same way for 400 years. It's extraordinary. And I couldn't keep out of there when we moved our studio there. And eventually the managing director, Alex Rowling, said, what is it you do? I said, I'm an artist. And so she said, we love artists.

It's just through all this rope at me, all these samples of rope. I mean, some of it was like 150 mill diameter, all sorts, manila, coir, hemp. and so I took it back to the studio put it on the ground and just sort of left it for a while but it kept winking at me and then I thought

do you know what it'd be so rude not to do something because I'm well brought up you know so I started playing with it and once I started playing I couldn't stop it's made to be handled so you can imagine it just wants to work with you the things it won't do

obviously but also different types of rote will do different things so I started making small dance figures which my gallery then picked up on, the October Gallery, and then Liverpool Museums commissioned,

liked the look of them and commissioned a piece for the docks up there and asked me if I could do a big piece because previously I've been a set designer and was an art director, an art director of the MTV Awards, worked on big shows. I'm not afraid of scale because I had to do all the technical

drawings for those and the model making for those shows. So I said how big. three metres, four metres, five. And they went five and I went great. Otherwise, it doesn't stand out. You can't have the massive dockyard with a three metre high piece on it. So it's a five metre high piece

called Dancing in Time, the Ties that bind us. And it went up there originally for three months. Chatham Historic Dockyard very kindly said we'd love it back here, so it's been there. And now it's back up at Yorkshire. It's up at Yorkshire Park outside the Western Gallery. I've looked at the pieces

and they are huge. There's a centre of the exhibition is the monumental Maypole. Yes. A piece entitled to call to dance. Why? Why a Maple? Maypole's, I don't know about you, but I've always just thought of them

as folklore, Morris Mayn and not really engaged with it. In actual fact, they have quite political significance. It's a pagan ritual and it had to be crushed basically by the church. So often if a maypole went up, someone would come and cut it down. So it was seen as a call to arms, often, in Middle Ages. And of course it's global. Well, it's European.

It's all over Europe, the Maple Pole, and then also ends up in 80 because of slavery and colonialism. So it's got an unusual history that people don't really look at. Many of your rope sculptures reflect women's bodies. Well, they are all about dance But the majority of my work is about talking about the female form Tell us what they represent These rope figures are representing liberation and dance

Because dance is something that if we dance together We stay together It's a very binding activity And I mean the military know that Hence drill You know, people who drill would die for each other on the battlefield It's something about the rhythm of the body and movement, but as a whole, as a group.

And there's an idea actually that it comes from hunting and gathering, so going out to hunt, coming together as a group to make your quarry feel that it's just one massive thing coming towards them, not an individual. Then you go back to your camp and you enact what you did. You hit the sticks on the floor. You made a rhythm, made yourselves big. They take it back to camp and they enact it out for the younger people or to show what's happened.

There's an idea that dance could have come from that. It is a muscular response. You can't suppress it, can you? And yet it's been suppressed all through the ages. I mean, all through the ages, right up to rave culture. Yeah. Look at how they policed the rock and roll culture in America in the 50s. You literally got pushed back into your seat by police at concerts.

So all through the years, it's been suppressed. And I think of dance as it's so powerful. It threatens hierarchies, basically. When you come together as a group and you make rhythm, you bond. I love that you've called the exhibition rise. Important. It's about that liberation. Because it's not, yes, all the negative associations with rope, yes, all the negative associations with slavery.

And I'm talking about slavery of any type, not just the Atlantic slave trade. Slavery, but we rise and still we rise. How does it feel seeing your work in that big public space? I'm incredibly proud. sort of overwhelmed in a way. Have you watched people interacting with it? Yes.

It's lovely to watch. I wanted them to have a side on the wall saying, touch everything gently, but they said, you can't do that. What you do is you don't say don't touch, because then people might just gently touch it. But if you say touch, people tend to get carried away. But it is a rope is made to be handled,

so your natural instinct is to that. Also, it smells. It's got the most delicious. I don't know how to describe it. a bit sort of piney, tarry smell. And people are acknowledging that when they come in. Because there's so much of it, I think there's 30 kilometres. Wow.

So physical. I was trying to picture you actually making the pieces. Well, we're working mostly with an armature and then covering the armature. So a metal armature to hold the form and then we're putting rope around it. There's two spinning tops, which I wanted there, you know, when you're dancing at a party, there's someone that's really good. You want to dance next to them. You get that energy.

Yeah. You don't want to next start. The person who's free in their body. And then you get chance state, don't you? Yeah. So important. It's liberating. The two spinning tops are those people that you want to.

So they're to encourage Cumber and Maple to dance. But they actually have so much power in themselves. And spinning tops were used as a sort of ritual for contemplation. And talking about life force. in Indigenous American culture. They've all got representation, powerful representations, all these figures. I can't stop smiling because literally just the other day

I was with a couple of girlfriends and we were talking about how we were desperate to dance together because, and there's something about regulating our bodies but also with my girls. Yeah. The freedom. It's liberating and I think it is like a trance. Yeah.

You know, it does free your brain and your body. You work a lot with found objects and materials. And boat holes have also featured heavily in your work. Yeah. Beautifully decorated. Can you tell us about those? Well, I used to go into dry docks when I was working in a half in France. And you get the sense of the underneath of the boat looking exactly like an African mask

because the keel then becomes the nose. And I saw one at a car boot sale and it was offered up to me like that lying on its deck. So I took that home and that winked at me for a few years. And then I started adding stuff to it because they become. like guardians. So I don't do much to the hulls themselves. They're already old. But again, there's another irony here, which is, you know, I wasn't allowed to go into the yacht club when I was young, you know, down in Sussex, you could imagine. And the type of people that made all those bottled boat holes were not part of my culture, you know. So there's another

irony there. There's like a, you know, in a way, I feel it's like a bit of a healing. Yeah. Well, Lisa, just to pick up on that, you're also in the art world. Yeah. And your career has really, really taken off. You stepped into it 10 years ago. Yeah. And I'm fascinated by timing. It's everything, isn't it?

Why now? I think. And how is it feeling? It feels fantastic. And I think we are some of our histories, aren't we? So I bring more now than I could have before. And I don't think I was brave enough to become an artist. I didn't see people like me being artists.

I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't. brave enough. I couldn't have done that. But I think I was at a set designer, art director, and I started tentatively making stuff, and it just made me so happy. And what are these hands for? Do you know? We create stuff. We're good at that. Using found objects allows me to have a good starting base for things. But also there's a patination. They have a history

of themselves. They have a symbolism themselves. So it's a bit like one plus one equals three, you know, you take the hull, you take the found objects, put them together and you've got this thing that looks like, to me, it has to look like it's always been together. But they're powerful objects. Yes, and I mean, it's timing, but also, you know, what the story you're telling through your art is so important. And only you can tell that.

I think it's important. I don't want to make art that doesn't say something. I feel, I'm not saying that all artists have to say something, but I feel if I was just making things for the sake. it would feel indulgent. This is an unique opportunity to actually talk about hidden histories, you know. What do you want people to experience when they're there?

I just want them to really feel... I think beauty is a really good way of drawing people into a subject, an object, a piece of art. And I think once people are lured in, then they can start thinking. Important thing for me is that abstract forms you can put on what you like onto them. That's why for me, at the moment, superhero cogwomen

and the maquette of Dancing in Time are on Temple Gardens at the Artist's Garden above Temple Station. It's created by Claire Manda. It's a sculpture park on top of Temple Tube. And it's only for women artists. So that's another... I think if you create abstract forms, people can grow them in themselves.

You can look at them over the years and bring different stories to them even. Superhero coglement is a salute to women in industry, by the way. And you've got some, you'll be doing some work with V&A East. Yes, they've commissioned a dance figure for their new black music show, which is opening soon. That's very exciting because actually I live in Hackney, so it's a bit of a stone's throw. And also, it's such an honour to be asked to be part of these things, you know? Well, it's important that you are asked to be part of them as well.

And I'm thrilled for you. Really? Really am. It's a great story. The work, even in just the photographs that I've seen, looks epic. I cannot wait. I can smell it, I can feel it. I'm there already.

And of course, it's in the Yorkshire Sculpture Park. So it's like home turf for me. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Lisa Vandy, thank you so much for joining us. And you can see L.R. Vandy's exhibition rise at the Western Gallery at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, where it runs until Sunday the 13th of September. And thanks to all of you for sharing your stories of your siblings this morning.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. The Moral Mays on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now. Examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens. If we don't do something, millions will die, billions will die. That's the state of play here. Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging.

I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about. your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any? The new series of The Moral Maze with me, Michael Burke, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth,

available now wherever you get your podcasts.