Woman's Hour - Global Abortion Rights, Do women worry more?, Bees, Matriarchs

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

Since the overturning of Roe vs Wade in the United States here on Woman’s Hour we’ve looked at what this will mean for women in America, and also what the status of abortion is here in the UK. But what right do women around the world have to an abortion and could the overturning of Roe vs Wade in America lead other countries to follow suit? Macarena Saez is from the NGO Human Rights Watch and joins Emma. A new study shows women are now twice as likely as men to be extremely worried about their lives and those around them, after the pandemic. Journalist Eleanor Morgan and Charlotte Faircloth from UCL join Emma to discuss.The latest in our series about matriarchs, the redoubtable women in your lives. Today listener Alexandra on her fabulous Auntie Lilla who bred miniature Shetland ponies was 6'3" and a bit terrifying. Jersey has elected its first ever female Chief Minister – the equivalent of the island’s Prime Minister. Politics on the island has been largely male, white and middle class for years. But in elections last month, more women won seats in Jersey’s States Assembly - the equivalent of Jersey’s Parliament - than ever before. Emma Barnett catches up with Kristina Moore, a former journalist and TV presenter, to find out how her first few weeks in office are going. Bees and other essential insects that we rely on to pollinate our crops are threatened by harmful pesticides according to a group of women campaigners who have launched a petition this week. We hear from Anabel Kindersley who is the co-owner of Neal’s Yard Remedies and the leader behind the #StandByBees campaign and Ben Woodcock, a scientist from UK Centre for Ecology & Hydrology.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. As it continues to heat up in Westminster, four women vying with two men to become the UK's next Prime Minister, we unpack that sort of ambition and power with a new female leader, the first to be elected to run Jersey. Christina Moore joins me and reflects on the wealth gap on the island in the English Channel, criticised by some as a tax

haven. We're also going to hear from one woman trying to save the bees, as she puts it. And we analyse the abortion laws around the world, or lack thereof, in light of the overturning of Roe v Wade in America. But in terms of what I'd like to invite you to comment on today, if you'd be so kind, it is this worry, women's worries. Let me put it to you like that. Specifically, since the COVID-19 pandemic began, a new study shows women are now twice as likely as men to be extremely worried about their lives and those around them after the pandemic. There's some specific concerns. We can go through those in just a moment.

But what about you? Does that ring true with you? This is a sample size of around 1,000 or so. We have many more listeners. I'm happy to report. Give me a sense of your feelings before and after the pandemic. And, of course, sorry, I should say we're not after the pandemic, but I mean before it began and where we are now. I must be very clear about that. We were only talking about

the levels of COVID rising yesterday and you were kind enough to get in touch on that. Tell me what you think of when I say that. Are there differences between the men and you in your life? Or if you're a male listener, we have many of those. Good morning to you. Are there differences between you and the women in your life? Text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Do get in touch. You can check with your network provider for those exact costs on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email me through the Woman's Hour website. Of course, as I expect one of my guests may do on this, they may take issue with the very premise of this study. You may listen to this and think, why are we trying to calibrate how much women are worrying versus men?

Is that fair? Is that right? Surely we worry about different things at different times and some of the time some of the same things. I don't know, but the pandemic has had an impact on certain people's anxiety levels. There is a new study positing that it is women who are now worrying more. I would like to hear your take on that. Please do get in touch if you feel you can. Perhaps it is, if you are feeling more concerned than you used to, the cost of living that is causing you concern. Today,

more than 8 million households, for instance, will get £326 into their accounts directly from the Department of Work and Pensions to deal with soaring prices. Or maybe it is COVID. Cases are up 18% in a week across the UK. It could be, of course, looking after those in your life, whether that's dependents through children, parents, siblings, those around you. The study comes from the National Centre for Social Research

and it found that when women were asked the same questions pre-COVID, there was little difference between the sexes. So what if anything has changed? Let's talk now to the journalist and author Eleanor Morgan and Charlotte Fairclough, Associate Professor at University College London Social Research Institute who has looked at the impact of the pandemic on families. Eleanor, good morning to you. I'll come to Charlotte first if I may. What do you make of the idea of a gender-based worry gap, a sex-based worry gap, I should say? Well, yeah, I think actually one of the things that I was quite interested by in this study is that it pointed to the fact that this is a kind of new thing. Actually, a lot of sociological research, at least, has kind of pointed to this kind of worry gap pre-existing the pandemic.

So in terms of I think you've talked about this a lot on the programme, you know, the mental load, as it's talked about, you know, women worrying more about their parents, children, care work, education, work life balance, et cetera, et cetera. That's not to me something new. That's very familiar from a lot of the studies that I've done. I think it's fair to say, though, obviously, that the pandemic has really, really magnified that kind of worry, you know, particularly those with childcare responsibilities when nurseries and schools were shut. Or if you lost your job. Well, exactly. That's why I say female sectors were sort of disproportionately affected, things like hospitality. And it's also worth saying that it's not just all women, particularly women of colour, particularly, you know, working class women, they were much more adversely affected by these sort of changes we saw. So, you know, and with the furlough scheme, it was those that had childcare

responsibilities that were more likely to request it, and then more likely to be made redundant. And as you said, in the introduction, now we have the cost of living crisis you can see why you know these two things kind of coming together is is uh you know pretty perfect storm the idea that women had more pressure placed on them in specific ways during the pandemic is also a theme yeah absolutely i mean i think uh you know for a lot of people, you know, working parenthood is sort of hard enough anyway, when you then throw children actually literally into the mix in the same space, trying to continue working or not being able to work, you know, both of not just confined to the UK, of course, at UCL we've been leading a study about the impact of the pandemic on families across 10 different countries. And this is a theme that just sort of keeps coming up, this exacerbation of, you know, gendered inequalities, as well as the kind of worry that, you know, the programme's discussing today. I think a colleague of mine, Catherine Twomley, who leads the study, has developed this very nice concept of COVID labour,

just the extra labour that the pandemic created in doing the most mundane of things. You know, going to the shops suddenly became like a really fraught, difficult kind of decision. Should I take the children or should I not? Is it safer to leave them or not? Should we go and see the grandparents? Are they going to be really lonely if they don't see, you know, see us for six months? Or are we going to give them COVID and will they die? I mean, genuinely, I think this risk kind of consciousness and risk management has taken a real toll on people. And it is very much gendered.

Thank you for that. Let's bring in Eleanor Morgan. Good morning. Good morning. I just received this message which said, Hi, Emma, just this morning as I got on the train for a long train journey, my boyfriend said, i need to stop being so anxious about getting covid otherwise it will ruin my life but i'm currently living with my parents and i'm worried about giving it to them plus my own

health hasn't been great recently either says hannah who's on a hot train to reading um we aren't talking about the concern or the anxiety specifically about getting covid we're of course talking about worry more generally and women and anxiety, but it's in this particular context. What do you make of studies like these and that idea about women worrying more? Well, I think it's an interesting set of findings, but I think it doesn't really tell us anything that we didn't already know. I think there has been a lot of research pre and post and during pandemic about how women

experience greater social and economic impacts than men. Excuse me. I think there was a big study by the University of Washington published in The Lancet that said that 26% of women reported a loss of work compared to 20% of men. You know, there's all sorts of findings all the time that kind of point to this idea, as our previous guest was saying exacerbating previously existing social and economic disparities but I think more generally the idea or if we sit with the idea that women potentially worry more than men I think that is a red herring because it's never really been based on any conclusive scientific study despite the messages that sort of are extrapolated from very small scale

studies looking for gender-based differences and these differences never ever materialise in a kind of full, conclusive way. And yet the messages kind of percolate through society and we kind of pick them up as narratives. Do you think it's a myth that women worry more? I think women worry about different things to men. And I mean, obviously, there is some crossover about the things that women and men worry about. But if we're talking about, as you often hear this phrase, wired differently, women and men are wired differently. This is never, ever, and I've researched this stuff extensively.

It's never been proven conclusively. There's a fantastic cognitive neuroscientist called Gina Rippon, who has a book called The Gendered Brain. studies with small cohorts looking for gender differences to me the question is as you were saying at the beginning of the program why are we so interested in sort of measuring it or you know looking for some sort of biological basis when we could be looking at wider society and you know, all of this deep conditioning there is about what women should or shouldn't be doing. You know, it's kind of, I feel like often we look for kind of clear-cut answers to problems that are much wider and right in front of us. What do you say to anecdotal, I'll say evidence in the loosest sense of the word,

but anecdotal example. One of our male listeners, Tristan, has got in touch to say, my wife worries so much more than I do about pretty much everything. I believe that generally women work more, they are more pessimistic, sadly, and I think that's because they care more

and I think they think far more, maybe too much about the worst case scenarios. Lighten up, be more optimistic. Better things happen 100 percent. What do you say to that, Eleanor? Oi, there's a lot in that, isn't there? Yes. Yeah. On many, on many levels. You can go for it uh oh I I think it kind of it speaks to this kind of deeply

held and I think often it isn't conscious and it isn't always a sort of um you know anything with malice but it's it's just those deeply held tropes of women caring more, you know, because we're supposed to care more. But again, the idea, it sort of feeds into that hysterical thing that has kind of stuck to women throughout history. Let me bring in Charlotte back at this point. We've just discussed the broader point. We've zoomed out a bit on perhaps what this ends up doing or making women feel that maybe they don't already feel and that maybe some of this is a myth. What do you make of that as someone who's been looking

at the impact of the pandemic on families? Well, yeah, I mean, just to agree with Eleanor, I think there's nothing sort of inherent about being a woman that makes you worry more you know i sort of completely agree with that however i do think that society is in structure is structured in such a way and you know gendered kind of ideas are internalized throughout lives um in specific ways that mean that you know as a mother for example one is expected to kind of worry more about, you know, children's kind of developmental outcomes, I think. I think you could end up worrying about that.

You're not worrying enough. Well, exactly. And actually, there's a lot of... Can I say that? I'll put my hand up. Well, yeah. So actually, a lot of my research is about parenting culture and, you know, this kind of worrying about worrying. Am I worrying too much?

Should I let them, you know, do free range play and not get involved too much? And it's sort of like this, you know, you get yourself absolutely wrapped up in knots. It's what's called this kind of double bind of parenting culture. You can't do wrong for doing right because this assumption that we now have

that, you know, everything you do with your kids has lifelong implications. It leaves you kind of completely paralysed. Oh gosh, if you think like that, the floor disappears beneath you well exactly and so i think you could apply that to you know other areas as well other thoughts indeed eleanor just just let me come back to you on something you wrote a recent piece we can't get into all elements of it but i really enjoyed it and it was about confidence and it speaks to some of the same themes actually about what women are told versus the reality and how something can take a hold of people's minds.

And if I was to summarise it very crassly, you were looking at the sort of marketing campaigns and some of the messaging around women are told that if they believe more in themselves, if they have more confidence, if the rise of personal coaches, things will just get better, when actually there are still some of the same structural issues underpinning barriers to equality and success. And those are not being dealt with in more targeted ways, in more effective ways. And I think I wanted to hear what you wanted to say on that, having researched that, because again, you could say the same is true of worry yeah I think it's I mean there are so many levels to that um so I think it kind of it's it's the kind of intersection of capitalism and the individualist society that we live in and I think it's kind of and i think for women in particular with the kind

of wellness industry the life coaching industry you know these are spheres which are heavily dominated by women i think there is hashtag blessed you know hashtag blessed exactly um and I think, and this isn't my idea, I was reporting on ideas from two brilliant academics, Rosalind Gill and Shani Orgard. They have this amazing book called The Confidence, excuse me, Confidence Culture, Confidence Cult, excuse me, and they posit the idea that confidence is positioned as something that women have a kind of innate you know we have less and there are all of these kind of market forces products coaches

whatever that can help us fill the void um but i guess it's kind of what are we missing if we're kind of just looking for short term quick fix solutions to much bigger societal issues that have made us feel lacking or, you know, worried about kind of how we are in the world in the first place. Yes. Well, there is, as you say, a lot to unpack there, but many people will understand what you're talking about. And if they themselves have looked at or tried to use, you know, you don't rail against it, parts of that so-called wellness industry, that they could also argue, you know, something makes you feel a bit better in the moment. But yes, it may not be solving the bigger issue. I thought this was an interesting message that just came in to share

from someone who calls themselves Ms. Varney on Twitter. Is it perhaps that women articulate their worries out loud more? Maybe men internalise them, but women get them out as a coping mechanism. Again, not a perfect science, but an interesting thought about how we learn what each other's worries are and who we hear them from and if we even hear them. Eleanor Morgan, journalist and author, thank you for your insights and thoughts. Charlotte Fairclough, Associate Professor at University College London Social Research Institute, thank you to you. Another message from Olivia says, women worry because in most cases the buck stops with them. So the worry is actually the mental load although very real in

the present says this message i feel that in the future covid the cost of living crisis will be seen as mere distractions from the real crisis which is climate change my worry is for the utterly desperate times that are anticipated by climate scientists hence my eco anxiety have a happy day signs off jane, I'm very struck that while I'm talking to you, Liz Truss is launching her, formally launching her leadership bid to be the Prime Minister. The slogan on the front of her lectern says, Liz for Leader. And I remember that yesterday there was a message I didn't read out loud, but if I am allowed to paraphrase it, it was to talk about the priorities of those leadership candidates and the concern that not enough had been made of the climate crisis. So I don't know if that's going to be included in Liz Truss's stump statement, as it were. But we shall see, because it is certainly on the mind of some of you, on the minds, I should say, of many of you over the year and a half or so I've been presenting this programme. I definitely note that as a key trend. And so the messages keep coming in. One more from Joe, just to share,

I'm listening right now. It's just hit me on the head. Worries. I've never kept a diary before, but something compelled me to write regularly over the last six months. Each entry is a poem of sorts, and I was struggling to work out what brings it all together as a collection. You've just helped me realise that what I've written is a running commentary on the worries I have as a woman. Thank you, Jo. We are happy to be of service. I hope by writing you find a little peace with that. But having just mentioned the race in Westminster to become the UK's next prime minister,

four women, two men left in the race, let's head now to the Channel Islands, where Jersey has recently elected its first female leader, the chief minister, which is Jersey's equivalent of the prime minister. The island forms part of the British Isles, but is not classed as being part of the UK. It's self-governing, but the Queen is the head of state. Just over 100,000 people live on Jersey, and the new leader is the former journalist Christina Moore. Her appointment comes as the island has seen more women get elected to Jersey State's Assembly than ever before after

years of politics on the island being largely white, male and middle class. 43% of the state's members, which is the equivalent of MPs, are now women, up from 27%. I spoke to Christina Moore just before coming on air, and I asked her why she wanted to do it, why she wanted to lead. Well, much like the work of journalism, politics is really about people. My career has always been about people. And the ultimate challenge really is to be able to lead a group of people who get to direct the future of a small island nation, which is an incredible honour. And so when that opportunity arrived, there was no reason to not pursue it, really.

It's a historic moment whenever anything like this happens to be the first woman in a job. But in particular, Jersey politics has been rather white, male and middle class up till now, if you were to typify it, wouldn't you say? Well, we have had an increasingly diverse assembly, particularly over the last 11 years that I've been a member of the States of Jersey. However, yes, the female participation has been in the 20% region. And now we've broken over the 40% barrier. And actually, there are more female deputies now than there are men, which is incredible. Yes. And we should say not deputies to men. That's what's the name for elected to the State Assembly, for those who aren't familiar with the names of the roles that you're talking about?

Is it that there's been a lag of women wanting to be involved? Or what do you put that lack of representation until very recently down to? I think politics is not often the first thing that women think of doing, is it? There are many women, of course, who do participate in local politics in various places, but there are very few nations where there is a high level of female participation. I think Rwanda is actually one of the few places

that I'm very aware of. It's not seen as something that is easy for women to do. Perhaps we're sometimes not keen to face what is perceived to be an area where there's often conflict and difficult discussion. But I think women participating in that is actually a really positive thing. And we need more women to take on these roles. Well, that seems to be the case, or certainly the trend now, finally, in Jersey. I mean, you say, you know, politics is a place where women representation, female representation is still tricky. It just, Jersey seems to have taken that

bit longer, for instance, if you were to compare it to politics in the UK, in some ways, although the UK still got some way to go. The voter turnout is just over 40 percent, 41.6 percent. It seems that perhaps the people of Jersey don't care that much about who looks after them. Well, this has been an issue in our elections in the recent past. It's something that we have tried to work on. But unfortunately, we do have what seemed to be very much a divide between the country and the town dwellers. So I now represent a sort of more rural area of the island and participation rates are much higher, up into 60% and beyond in those areas. But sadly, in town, where 35,000 people do live out of our 103,000 population, we have seen very low rates of participation,

which is a great shame. And it's something that we really have to turn around. Is Jersey a tax haven? Jersey is a financial centre. It's an international financial centre. It's a place that sees great distribution of wealth to other nations. It doesn't seem that it's great distribution of wealth to its people, though. I mean, how many, what percentage of your population are on zero hours contracts at the moment? Well, that's a good question. And I don't have that exact figure to hand at the moment. But we actually have been encouraging a move away from zero hours contracts. And also, we are committed to moving towards a living wage. You don't have a living wage? We do have a living wage, yes. And an increasing number of employers are becoming accredited under our living wage system, which is a really good thing.

What percentage of employers do you know? At the moment, it is quite a small group. But I think that there's a significant campaign at the moment to move on to that. And I think it's something that we very much approve of. We are about to debate an increase in our minimum wage as well, which is taking a great step towards meeting the living wage. And there's a commitment, I think, in the Assembly at the moment to make our minimum wage the living wage over a period of time. It's just that chasm between the perception of Jersey, as you talked about, a centre of finance, and the reality of people in Jersey's lives and the cost of living crisis and how that's affecting them.

I mean, some MEPs in the European Parliament think Jersey should be on the European Union's tax haven blacklist. Jersey was ranked eighth in the world in 2021 for tax havens, most complicit in helping multinational corporations underpay corporate income tax. That's by the campaign group, the Tax Justice Network. As the new leader of Jersey, what do you say to that? Well, look, Jersey actually has a very good track record. We have a highly regulated, very professional financial services industry here and it generates a lot of wealth for many nations. The distribution of the, I'll leave it at that I think. I don't follow when you say it's got a good track record why on earth does this campaign group rank Jersey eighth in the world for tax havens most complicit in helping multinational corporations underpay corporate income tax?

Well they are as you say a campaign group with a specific view and a specific agenda. And I think there is actually a very good story. There's MEPs in the European Parliament who think Jersey should be on the European Union's tax haven blacklist. They don't have that agenda necessarily in that campaign group. But we also participate with other OECD countries at a very high level. And we take that role in the international community very seriously. I suppose I'm just trying to get a sense from you. You talk about women stepping up, women being a greater part of Jersey's politics and politics around the world.

Do you ever worry about the morality of this? I think that we are a very good jurisdiction that actually does have a strong and cohesive community. We can always improve at home. And I think we're always seeking to do that. We have a strong ranking. We're considered to be one of the best financial centres in the world. And I think we perform really well. But the best financial centre in the world creating wealth for others away from Jersey. There's a gap for the people of Jersey. I mean, what would you say to those people of Jersey who don't want to vote?

They don't think it's going to make any difference. And they're concerned about the morality and the state of the finances. Yes, it might be good for others, but it's not so good for them. Well, if you've taken an opportunity to read either my vision statement or the material that I did publish during my election campaign, I made a firm commitment to improving our ranking in the OECD Better Life Index. And I also have made housing and the cost of living my key priorities moving forward. And I know absolutely that that's what we have to do. And we're set about delivering on those.

Well, we will see how that goes. Of course, that's what you've been elected for with those who did vote. And you've got an equal mix, I believe, in the cabinet of women and men, which is also a striking part of how you're going to govern and moving forward. We'll see how that goes. I know it's very early days. Just finally, for women in the UK leadership race, the Conservative leadership race, now trying to be Prime Minister, are you following that? Do you follow that? Do you watch that with anticipation? Of course, it's really important that Jersey has a good and strong relationship with the United Kingdom and whoever the next leader of the United Kingdom is will work with them. But it is great to see female participation and women stepping up in that arena. Christina Moore, the first woman to lead Jersey, the new leader of Jersey, talking to me just before I came on air this morning.

Now, talking about power, let's talk about matriarchs. A few weeks ago, I asked you about them, those women that came to mind when I said that word. A lot of wonderful responses. And as I said the other day, we wanted to start telling some of their stories on air. Not too late, I should say, for you to share the stories about the Matriarchs, who, for good or ill, shaped or influenced your lives. Do get in touch, 84844 or via the Woman's Hour website. Today, one of you, one of us, a listener, Alexandra from Bristol,

got in touch to talk about her remarkable aunt. Alexandra, good morning. Hi. Thanks for joining us. Tell us about this woman. Auntie Lilla. She wasn't a real aunt. She was my mother's godmother. And she was a very extraordinary person in my life because she was so powerful, she seemed. She was Auntie Lilla to the whole neighbourhood neighborhood everybody called her that all the neighbors children etc and she bred miniature sheps and ponies which lived in the fields next to our house

and when i was very little i used to go down and feed the ponies grass through the fence which if she caught me woe betide me. She was absolutely furious. And she fed them every day with white bread and sugar lumps, which you can imagine was not the best thing. Anyway. She scared me so much. Well, I was going to say, she's quite an imposing figure, a tall woman as well. Yes, she was over six foot.

And yes, she wore more amazing clothes to go to Ascot my parents told me she used to dress in chiffon and she was like a ship in full sail because she was quite large and tall and uh yes I think um and she was she had been a flapper in her youth so she had that sort of um air her, you know, very unusual clothes. And also she had learned to fly as well when she was younger, is that right? She did. I was told that she'd learned to fly. She played polo. She kept an aviary of budgerigars outside her house. We all played croquet in her garden, which she cheated at unmercifully.

She always had dogs. And when I was slightly older, I was paid to take the dogs for walks. And she paid me half a crown, which was a lot of money in those days. Good work if you can get it, it sounded like. And tell me about the tea leaves as well. Oh, when I was slightly older, she used to invite me round either for dinner or for tea. And she'd obviously been talking to my mother and she used to read the tea leaves. So she read the tea leaves and told me that a widow's son would be in touch with me. So I was thinking about it. Of course, our neighbour across the road was a widow and her son had been writing to me from school. Oh, did that turn into anything?

Well, I used to go and watch him playing rugby from time to time. Yes. Well, there you go. I mean, she sounds, in the truest sense, someone that's unforgettable and also quite impactful on your life. Did you learn things from her? What impact do you think she did have? Well, she had the most extraordinary children's parties,

which were quite extraordinary, well, from my point of view, not for me, for her grandchildren. Her granddaughter was younger than me, probably about three or four years younger, but she had this extraordinarily huge lantern, magic lantern, and she did magic lantern shows where they had to have a candle, I think it was, inside it. We had to sit in a dark room and she'd tell a story.

And the slides would be able to, they had levers attached, so children would be able to do skipping in them and things like that. I wonder whatever happened to it because it must be worth a fortune now, I would think. Yes. But I suppose, yes, she taught us that women are powerful, that she was a person of standing in the community and woe betide anybody who crossed her. Yes, it sounds like she could do whatever she wanted with, for instance, her own horses, but lest you go anywhere near.

And even when I was older and I got a pony, I wasn't allowed to keep it in her fields because she didn't think I was responsible and I'd have to have one. Well, Alexandra, perhaps that says something about her view of you or everyone else who tried to do anything. She died when you were in your late teens. Is that right? But I was about 16. Yes, she was. It was the first funeral I ever went to and as I said she was quite large and I can remember trying to stifle giggles because she was sort of the pallbearers were rather struggling under the weight. Well there you go a very strong memory indeed thank you for sharing it she does sound she fits the bill for for a matriarch figure and and a largely positive one. Largely positive yes and she was the she was the person who introduced my parents to each other

so a very important person in your family's life yes my mother lived in dorset and went to stay with auntie lilla in woking to do a secretarial course and um knew that their dance was on and so wanted a partner and auntie lilla suggested my father's family who had three boys and she got the middle one. There you go. There you go. Well, it's lovely to hear about it. And it's even lovelier to talk to you, Alexandra. Thank you so much for getting in touch with the programme. Well, thank you for having me on. We expect more matriarchal and matriarch stories to come in. As I say, we've already had a lot. We'll try and share some more throughout the summer.

So do get yours in if you would like to contribute. And I should say for good or for ill, because we did get a few saying, you know, someone was a matriarch in our life. It wasn't always the best, but you certainly don't forget them. 84844 is the number you need. And also I have to say many messages still coming in about this idea of women worrying, especially since the pandemic began. And if there's a difference between men and women on that front. And Juliet says, I cannot disagree more with the idea women worry more than men. I should qualify, it was a study that say women are worrying more about certain things since the pandemic than men, but it is a small sample size, a thousand or so. My husband worries so much more, says Juliet,

about the future, finances, world politics, even general faith in human nature. I always assumed this was a more male viewpoint, mainly concerned about the potential dangers of the future, whereas I'm much more rooted in the present, probably because I'm with our young children more of the time. They keep me present. I worry about things that are happening today and usually are more within my control. I'm sure everyone's different. I think it has a lot to do with our early childhood and the way our parents presented the world to us as a place of optimism or a place full of danger and pitfalls. Juliet, thank you very much for that. Those messages also still coming in. But since the overturning of Roe versus Wade in the United States here on Women's

Hour, we've been looking at and we'll keep covering what this will mean for women and girls in America, but also what the legal status and reality of abortion is here in the UK. And a few weeks ago, you may remember this, you can catch up on BBC Sounds if you didn't hear it at the time, I also talked to a woman called Andrea Prudente, an American, who was on holiday in Malta, a country with extremely strict abortion laws, who had to travel to Spain after being refused a medically induced miscarriage when she needed one. Many of you got in touch with us during and after that moving insight from Andrea.

And some of you told us about times you'd been refused abortions in other countries with more restrictive rules than here in the UK. What rights then do women around the world have to an abortion and could the overturning of Roe v. Wade in America have an impact globally? Well, Macarena Saiz, who's the executive director of the Women's Rights Division at the NGO Human Rights Watch, is on the line. Good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? Well, I'm interested in how you are really now and through your vision that you have through your work, some weeks now after the overturning of Roe v. Wade. What are your thoughts on it now?

Well, my thoughts is that things are getting probably worse in the United States, for sure. I think that it's not also a good sign when abortion becomes so politicized that it's a decisive factor in terms of other things related to politics. So when women's bodies are politicized, it's really a bad sign for women around the world. And so I think that everybody agrees that, especially in the United States, in the coming months and years, the situation for many women and girls and pregnant people will be more complicated than it was even before. I do have to say, though, that two things. One is to remind everyone that the overturning of Roe v. Wade through this decision of the Supreme Court

a few weeks ago is not a criminalization per se of abortion, but it's a returning to the states possibility of regulating abortion. But the problem of that decision is that it really didn't put any obstacles or any, there was no assessment of harms to women when there is full prohibition of abortion. So the idea of the Supreme Court saying, well, now the states have the power to regulate this without any assessment of harm to women, it's really, really troubling. If I may, I was just going to say, of course, you know, the number I believe we're at where it's pretty much been banned is 10 states.

I think that's where we're up to. But more laws are coming in because there were, if you like, holding patterns on that. And we'll wait to see how it comes through. Your position on it, of course, is very clear. There will be others who have a very different view on whether this is greater rights or not for women and thinking about the rights of the unborn, as they perhaps would put it. But can I just turn our attention, because I was talking about the impact of this then away from America and whether there will be influence. If we started by looking at Latin America and the Caribbean, obviously close geographically to the United States, religion has had a major historic and current role in politics. What's the status of

abortion in that region? So I think that what is interesting about Latin America is that it has been progressively opening up and easing restrictions to abortion in a way that has been very healthy, slower than I would expect or I would like. But I think it's good news. I think the women's rights movement has been very strong and has had a good strategy of putting abortion as a human rights issue for women and girls and an issue of equality also,

participation of women. And so you see that you have a very good progress in Argentina, for example. Mexico, different states of Mexico, through the decisions of the Supreme Court of Mexico, for example, have now eased the restrictions. Colombia has recently, the Constitutional Court has eased the restrictions and has decided that abortion should be legal up to the week 24th without cost. And so I think that we have, and then we have other countries that have these restrictions, even though they are way less, they're still restrictive,

but they are still good in that progression. So you have Chile, for example, as a good example of a country that has these restrictions and now it has gone through a constitutional process that have put abortion also at the centre of equality for women. Yes. Well, I mean, sorry, and I also just wanted to clarify abortion bans have already taken effect going back to America in 13 states with 13 more states expected to follow. Just so I've brought the latest information on that. I thought it was at 10, but it's now at 13.

Things are moving all the time. It is a moving picture that people are trying to keep across. So I wanted to make sure I corrected that. If we also talk about one of our listeners who got in touch with us about being on holiday in the Dominican Republic and not being able to get an abortion while there. Of course, again, I wanted to make clear this isn't, you know, people going on holiday, women going on holiday and suddenly deciding always, you know, they may have a situation

where they are in need of one medically. It may have also been a wanted child, just like my guest, Andrea. It's just important to make that clarification. People are not going on holiday for these procedures or suddenly desiring them as well. Not that they've necessarily been an issue there, but I think it's important to try and give some context. What is the status in the Dominican Republic? So Dominican Republic, along with a bunch of few countries in Latin America, are still in the list of countries that have a complete ban on abortion, including when the life of the pregnant woman is in danger. So it's a very

draconian state in that sense. And I think that I just wanted to follow up with you on the desire of women traveling to have abortions. I think that it's important to understand that even when women travel to have abortions, these are not decisions that have taken lightly. And I think that there is such a misconception about how women make their decisions. And at the core of restrictions on abortion, there is a profound mistrust on the ethical potential of women, of women as ethical beings. And most women make decisions on terminating pregnancies after real serious consideration yes and we're going to we're going to see that aren't we as well just even within america where journeys have to be made to cross states we've seen that right closer to home in the uk with northern ireland until

very recently but some of those journeys still being made i've interviewed some of those women that they're also time sensitive those journeys they're expensive and as you say a lot of thought going into that and a lot of planning i was only reading actually about a a man in america who had to who's got to essentially use all of his spare cash to help his daughter across state lines and again there's not an awareness of whether that will become a crime i mentioned the case of malta being extremely restrictive. What's the picture like across Europe? So across Europe, I think that you have in Western Europe, you have mostly countries that have the restrictions and abortion is available with more or less restrictions, but it's not a, I think that there is a consensus that women's autonomy has to be balanced with any other state interest, but there has to be a recognition of women's

autonomy. There is, however, in some, it's an unfortunate situation of a country that is going a little bit backwards in their narrative in terms of what should happen with regard to rights. And again, it's a narrative of considering that women have a specific role to play in society and that women should play and should accept their fate as if women should be called to be heroic beings, that even in the most complicated and harshest circumstances should accept the fact of being pregnant and being mothers

and that motherhood should not be voluntary, which is really one of the most complicated, I think, and terrible obstacles for women's autonomy and women's equality. Again, a lot you could debate on that. Of course, your brief working at Human Rights Watch is from the perspective of humans and their rights. And of course, you're seeing it through that prism. If we just look across, while I have you to Asia,

and I know that's, of course, a huge continent, things will differ. But I know that there are concerns in some places about abortion rules. Well, Asia has always been very complicated. And as you mentioned, I don't know if we can really talk about Asia as as one place we can't but but i i wondered if there was anywhere like you picked out poland like malta has been picked out if there were any examples you could you could raise well i think that what i i there are good and bad examples so you you see for example that even macquarie for example has its restrictions uh lately and. But you also have the issue of China as the country where I think it's a good example of a country where you could say that it has abortion, liberal abortion,

but it has not placed women's autonomy at the center. So it's not about allowing or not allowing abortion. It's ensuring that those who make the decision about abortion are women and the medical personnel that the pregnant women have relied on. So I think it's important to understand that when we only look at the data of where abortion is a possibility, we are missing the point of where women's autonomy is being respected. Do you think, I mean, of course, there are other examples and there'll be the specifics people know themselves. But when it comes back to that original question, just a final thought from you, if I can, about America and its influence.

And of course, that's another debate. But this overturning of Roe v. Wade, do you expect it to send a ripple in any direction outside of America? Well, I think that the ripple effect might be in emboldening anti-rights groups rather than having sort of like an automatic view of the US and having judges or legislators around the world saying, oh, we need to, if the U.S. does X, then we also have to do it. I think that we are in a moment in history where the, where modeling after the U.S. is less prominent than 50 years ago. And I think that that's good news in terms of autonomy and serenity. And I think that also women's rights movements around the world are stronger today. And there is more of an understanding of the concept of human rights.

You know, our idea that there are some restrictions to what governments can or cannot do based on an intrinsic value of human beings. It's what the contribution of human rights narrative has been. And I think that that's also an element to understand that when you restrict abortion, you are really setting up governments for human rights violations. Well, that's again the bigger picture, I suppose, from your vantage point as the Executive Director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch,

Makar Enes Eze, thank you very much for your sort of travelling around the world with me from that perspective for a moment. I mean, as you would say, it was anti-rights, those who are empowering anti-rights. But of course, that is not how they would view themselves. But it's not necessarily to have the debate in this particular discussion. It's to try and get a map of where we are and perhaps where we're going in light of Roe v. Wade. Thank you very much to you. I just want to read this very, very quickly from Pamela.

Thank you for this message. Some of my extended family, this is in response to hearing from the new leader of Jersey, the first woman to lead that island. Some of my extended family have lived on Jersey for almost three years. My granddaughter-in-law has a part-time job and needed to discuss how much she'd been taxed. We were talking about it as a view of a tax haven.

She was told that they would not discuss it with her, that they would only discuss it with her husband. This seems unbelievable in the 21st century. She has since inquired, what if she was a single parent and found out that they would need to speak with her father? She and we are truly horrified. Well, I wish I'd known that before I'd interviewed her, because I don't own a specific company.

But a picture you paint there of the reality of women's lives far from the corridors of power. But talking about the corridors of power, let's talk about bees, shall we? We rely on them to pollinate our crops, but according to a largely female group of campaigners, they are being threatened by harmful pesticides. This group of 55 British businesses and organisations,

many of which are run by women, are calling for a total ban on a particular type of pesticide in a new petition. The campaign, Stand By Bees, hashtag, and the leader of it, Annabelle Kindersley, who's also the co-owner of Neil's Yard Remedies, who joins me now alongside Ben Woodcock, a scientist from the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology. Ben, welcome to the programme. I'll come to you very shortly. But Annabelle, good morning. Good morning. The campaign now, what's the focus and why?

The focus is to ask the government to create a framework for a pesticide reduction target, which doesn't currently exist. And I got into that because obviously we buy lots of natural ingredients. So that means a lot to us. And these neonicotinoid pesticides were banned in 2018. So this is a particular pesticide? It's a particular pesticide. It was banned in 2018 because of its harm to bees and other pollinators. And we had campaigned since 2011 with Friends of the Earth. So obviously we were excited when it

was banned. I thought I could, that was it, job done. Only to find out this year that they had reintroduced, lifted the ban for an emergency use. They call it a derogation, but it's a use. And I just thought, what? Let me just read to you the statement from the Department for Environment, Food, Farming and Rural Affairs, known as DEFRA, if you're in the know. It says, these particular pesticides are banned in the UK for use on all outdoor crops. We evaluate the risks very carefully

and only grant temporary emergency authorisations for restricted pesticides in special circumstances when the strict legal requirements are met. Are you saying that strict legal requirements will not be met? Is that your concern or you accept no circumstances? I think it was banned and the government went against its own scientific advice. So the HSE at that statement, at that hearing, said the risks outweighed the benefits. Let's bring in Ben at this point. Ben, what's your take on this, knowing what you know? So you're entirely right.

Neonics and noise have been shown to have a negative impact on honeybees, pollinators and a number of other groups. They were banned in 2018, and that was both within the UK and across Europe. Now, it's important to remember that this derogation is very targeted. It comes in response to the fact that current control methods that are being used for sugar beet, which is the crop where this has been granted, are not effective. And in 2020, there was £60 million worth of effective losses

of revenue associated with farmers. So that's a big impact on farmer livelihoods. Now, what this derogation is, is it's very targeted. It's in a very small number of counties associated with those that grow sugar beet. It's only been allowed when a predicted risk to those crops has been said to be very high. And it's got extremely strict restrictions associated with it that are much harsher than previous uses of neonixonoids. In the past, you could in some situations have neonixonoids applied every year.

This is only going to be applied once in every four years effectively. Now, the other thing to remember is this derogation has been set on the basis that this is a limited opportunity. The idea is that farmers or growers are going to move towards new varieties that are going to be resistant to the pests or more specifically the virus that's spread by the pest. So it's highly likely this is going to be a very limited one-time situation. It's not a case that this is going to occur every year. Even if it does occur again, it's likely to occur only under a situation where there's a very high risk to agricultural productivity. Annabel? Well, look, neonicotinoids, we know the harm from them. And Ben, you're right. But one teaspoon of a neonicotinoid is a lethal dose to 1.25 billion bees.

So we know it's not a good chemical. I understand and appreciate the issues that the sugar beet farmers face. But, you know, neonicotinoids persist in the soil for years. They leach into rivers. A study showed that 100% of rivers were tested had traces of neonicotinoids that affects aquatic life. You know, I just think we know what the risks are. And in terms of temporary measures, you know, you're right. They've said one year, but in their own statement, they've suggested perhaps it will be three years. When are we going to stop? When are we going to decide that we should support farmers and find and know? We know that there are alternatives that we should support. The government needs to put that in place. I'm supporting farmers. The beauty industry is backing farmers uh there are nature-friendly

farming alternatives crop rotation let's come to that alternative in just a moment but is is is that why there's a preponderance of women doing this because of the i'm not you know just trying to say it's about beauty industry but do you think that's why women have been drawn to this you i mean i should describe for our listeners you're wearing a t-shirt today that says pollinate yes right um but but you know what i just wanted to ask about the the female connection to this the women connection well first of all i um own a beauty brand and um and so i reached out to other uh like-minded businesses in the industry the beauty industry is dominated by women um you know we've got a 90 female customer base um we buy natural

ingredients and we depend on pollinators to pollinate them so you know there is an economic we've got a 90% female customer base. We buy natural ingredients and we depend on pollinators to pollinate them. So, you know, there is an economic interest also. £28 billion we contribute to the, not me personally, but the UK, the British beauty industry, £28 billion to the UK economy. I would say that matches...

So that's the link of that. Sorry, go on. That matches, I mean, if we think about farming, what was the NFU stat? It's quite similar, if not lower. But would it stop you from being able to do your job if there are these deregulations, these exemptions, if you like, for short periods? Well, Emma, you know, there's been a 60% decline in insects in the last 20 years. That's massive. I mean, but does that stop you from doing your job? Because, you know, there's been a 60% decline in insects in the last 20 years. That's massive.

But does that stop you from doing your job? Because, you know, I'm thinking of a beet farmer, a sugar beet farmer, you know, hearing what he's just heard from or she's just heard from Ben, and they might not be able to do their job if they don't get to do this. I think unless we put in structures and proper support for farmers to work in different ways. Look, I'm not an expert like Ben. I'm not a farmer and I'm not an academic,

but I do speak to farmers, academics and environmentalist organisations and they're all saying the same thing. We cannot continue to rely on pesticide usage as we are. Let me bring Ben back in just about the alternatives. Do the alternatives, very briefly, do they exist? Yeah. So in the UK at the moment, there is a massive movement towards reducing pesticides. We've got a thing called the Sustainable Use Directive that is actively pushing a thing called Integrated Pest Management.

And that really, the basis of that is trying to allow farmers to find opportunities to have other options before they start using pesticides. That's a major movement. I would also say that there's a big movement in general in the farming community towards more sustainable management practices. You see this in farmer-led conferences like Groundswell that have become enormously popular that are driving this kind of conservation, this regenerative agriculture. There's a massive shift towards this. The problem is there is an inertia and it takes time to implement. While it's a nice idea, and I agree, agrochemicals are not necessarily good for the environment,

but making that switch is not an instantaneous thing. It's going to have to be a gradual process. And I think there is a significant movement towards that. I'm going to have to call time on it because we are running out of time. I'm also going to paint a picture that Annabelle was shaking her head. The campaign continues. It's called Stand By Bees.

Ben Woodcock, Annabelle Kindersley, thank you very much to both of you. I adore this message from Sarah who says, and I just want to end the programme with it, going back to whether women worry more, whether they care more, they campaign more. My husband and I are both worriers. We both have worried more since the pandemic.

I worry about health. He worries about money. But my worry is called anxiety and my husband's is called grumpiness. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.