Woman's Hour - Gloria Allred, Monica Ali, Val McDermid

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Gloria Allred is probably the best known women’s rights lawyer in the US. Equally loved, feared and deemed controversial by some, for nearly half a century she's represented women in high profile cases involving Bill Cosby, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, R Kelly, Donald Trump. She talks to Woman's Hour about the situation facing the Duke of York, the possible retrial of Ghislaine Maxwell & her admiration for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.Vile text messages have come to light which were shared between police officers belonging to the Metropolitan Police. The IOPC has said: "We believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few 'bad apples'." The Met has said that it is 'sorry'. We get reaction from Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Shabnam Chaudhri, who served as an officer in the Met for 30 years.Monica Ali wrote her bestseller Brick Lane nearly 20 years ago. Her new book is called Love Marriage. It's about two families who are brought together when Yasmin and Joe fall in love. Scottish crime writer, Val McDermid, has stopped sponsoring a football club that's been part of her life since she was a baby. She's finished supporting Raith Rovers because it's signed up David Goodwillie who, in a Scottish civil case in 2017, was found to have raped a woman. He was fined £100,000. Val says she can't see herself ever going back to Raith Rovers.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Shortly I'm going to read out some text messages sent between police officers included in a new report exposing a toxic culture at the heart of the Metropolitan Police. But I like being honest with you and I'm going to share with you that it is not appropriate during a morning broadcast programme to read most of those messages out because they are so vile, abusive and offensive, much of the abuse aimed at women.

You may recall last week my interview with the academic Dr. Koshka Duff, who took on the same police force and won an apology and damages after she was strip-searched with mail and police officers afterwards recorded joking about her smelly knickers and hairiness. If you've read the news stories about the Independent Office for Police Conduct's report, which has exposed these messages from 2016 through to 2018, you may have a view about what needs to change. But if you haven't, we will shortly fill you in. And then I'm all ears. How do you change a culture? What is the problem? What is going on? You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged

at your standard message rate. I'm ready to receive them on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, she's back with her fifth novel, having gone through a period of never wanting to write again and almost 20 years after Brick Lane, the author Monica Ali will be with me in the studio. The American women's rights lawyer, Gloria Allred, you'll hear from her. She continues to represent 20 accusers of Jeffrey Epstein and offers her view on the potential for a retrial of Ghislaine Maxwell and the latest on Prince Andrew's situation. Plus, Val McDermid, the crime author,

on why she cannot support her football team any longer. But first, the messages you are about to hear, and I am able to say, are from serving police officers. As I just said to you, most of them are so vile and abusive, I cannot read them out to you this morning. But what I can say, one male officer wrote to a female officer on message saying, I would happily rape you. If I was single, I would happily chloroform you. Another two officers engaged in this exchange. Grab her by the pussy. You ever slapped your missus?

It makes them love you more. Seriously, since I did that, she won't leave me alone. Another one says, My dad kidnapped some African children and used them to make dog food. These are just some of the words exchanged by serving metropolitan police officers between 2016 and 2018. Those messages, as part of others, were uncovered by Police Watchdog, the independent office for police conduct known as the IOPC, during an investigation which found, as they put it,

disgraceful misogyny, discrimination, racism, bullying and sexual harassment. Most officers investigated were police constables based at Charing Cross Police Station in London, and in its report, the IOPC said, we believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few bad apples. The Met has said it's sorry. These revelations follow the murder of Sarah Everard at the hands of a serving Met police officer, Wayne Cousins,

and the convictions of two Met police officers for taking and sharing inappropriate images of the murder scene of the sisters Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry. I'm now joined by Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, and Shabnam Chowdhury, who served as an officer in the Met for 30 years. And I should say at this point, before I talk to both of them, we did ask the government on, no one was available. We also invited the Metropolitan Police on, and they said no one is available to speak to us today. Zoe Billingham, could I just come to you first of all, and remind our listeners as I do that the behaviour was only uncovered because an officer allegedly had sex with a vulnerable woman in a room inside a police station. Although this

allegation was never proven, it effectively sparked a spot check. What is your view on what would happen if every police station was put under this kind of scrutiny and what's your reaction to these findings um emma morning really good question another dismal day for policing i'm afraid my reaction to to what i've read and like you it's um it's utterly eye-watering the comments and not repeatable on this program but despicable disgusting disgraceful enough simply is enough but how many times have we been here Emma you and I spoke on the morning that Wayne Cousins was sentenced and we talked then about the need for the police culture to change I think we've got to be really honest and start talking not about culture because

that's quite a kind of cozy nice sounding word isn't it we've got to start talking about racism, bullying, misogyny, abusive position, demeaning, disgraceful, discriminatory behaviour. And that conversation needs to be had in forces up and down the land on a daily basis. We don't want to send officers on a course once every three years to talk about how should I behave as an officer. This needs to be part of the current day-to-day conversation within policing. And we need to take a really, really long, hard look about who becomes a police officer. What sort of traits, abilities, capabilities are we looking for in individuals that come into policing? Is it someone that wants to go and have a legalised fight on a Saturday night? Or is it somebody that actually comes into policing knowing that 60% of their time will probably be dealt with dealing with vulnerable people,

whether that's people in mental health crisis, vulnerable victims, children who are being abused? Let's have a long, hard look at reframing those that we want to protect us. You're right. Culture is a cosy word. I suppose it's the word that is reached for when one wants to talk about how to change what seems to be a problem that isn't just one bad apple, that there seems to be a repeat issue. Shabnam, I'm keen to bring you in at this point. Your reaction to what you've heard and what would you say to the idea that if there were spot checks across the country, so not just the Metropolitan Police, what do you think we could see? Of course, I recognise that's speculative. Yeah, I mean, shocking, shocking comments that were being made

make you feel sick to the stomach, but not altogether surprising, unfortunately. And I think the fact that the Met have said this is an issue at Charing Cross I think it's prevalent across the organisation as well as across the UK within policing I think that spot checks are good but we're not you know exactly as Zoe's saying it's not enough just to keep doing a little bit of training this has got to be embedded as part of your in your blood when you are policing every single day of the week when you are going out and you are dealing with victims of domestic abuse that the language that used to be used and and clearly that must still be part and parcel of

policing that this is just another domestic and how victims are being treated when officers are there at the initial investigation that needs to be put into their daily daily briefings of how they behave 24 hours a day remember because we are they were 24-hour policing that means professionally on duty and making sure that you are also behaving in a certain way that doesn't bring your organisation into disrepute. Shamna, nine of the 14 officers are still serving. I'm just minded to mention a message here that we got from Stella who said, I hope those serving officers are no longer serving. These are shocking.

Route and branch change needs to happen in the Met. And that they can't come and talk to you, Emma, is cowardly and appalling. Well, the door remains open, very much open. But on the first point about the serving police officers, what would you say to that? Well, two were sacked, two resigned before they could be sacked, and a number of others were subjected to some form of disciplinary process. What I would say is that we don't know the exact detail

of what those officers did and what part they actually took place, what took place what took place with each of them individually and I think it would have been helpful for the public to have had some form of an idea but what does concern me is when the Met Police say we have a zero tolerance policy it doesn't really make the public think that that is a zero tolerance policy and what does zero tolerance look like? Does it mean that you are going to discipline officers, that you are going to sack them? Because actually what they've said is nine officers have remained within the organisation and we're still tolerating it.

Whose responsibility is this? Well, look, this comes from the leadership at the very top of the organisation. And I agree with Zoe that it's just a culture is a nice cosy word. But the narrative has to change from the top down. The organisation must recognise, must recognise with heart, because they've lost their heart, that actually we have made some serious mistakes and we need to change and I appreciate what Zoe was saying that the culture goes hand in hand with the narrative that is being spoken about in the public domain because this has the hugest impact on public trust we've already lost trust with the black and asian community we've now lost trust with women and girls. The organisation had been labelled institutionally corrupt after the Daniel Morgan panel sat, an independent inquiry. When there's constant refusal to recognise that these are issues that we have to address, the frontline will just go along with the leadership

that say it's okay to behave like that because we're telling you it's not a problem. So the leadership being Cressida Dick who obviously had her, just to remind people, her term extended by the Home Office in her role as the Commissioner for the Met. Do you think she can continue? I think that's a matter for the government to decide, but I think she needs to have a very, very strong, hard look at herself and reflect on what has happened in the last couple of years. Every headline that you read is just so to the detriment of the police service and the people that are worstly impacted on this are the public who do not want to trust police to come and report crime. I would still urge women and girls and victims that are subjected to some form of abuse

that there are many, many good officers out there that work very, very hard, that are committed to eradicating crime and to making life safer for them. And there are plenty of good out there. We've just got to root out the bad apples. Zoe, as a former inspector of police and looking across this as you have, Maggie Blythe, the Deputy Chief Constable coordinating national policing response to violence against women and girls, has tweeted this. She was on the programme actually twice in recent months because she's talking about what needs to change and what should change. She says, reading messages sent by police officers and the findings of the IOPC investigation into them is deeply disturbing.

This conduct has no place in policing. And she says, in December, just gone, all forces signed up to a series of actions that will improve how we tackle violence against women and girls. Top of the list is action to reinforce high standards and strengthen the call-out culture in policing. violence against women and girls. Top of the list is action to reinforce high standards and strengthen the call-out culture in policing. Our national violence against women and girls policing strategy requires all forces to be open to scrutiny for how these actions are delivered

and the impact they have. Do you have faith in that? I do actually, Emma, and declare an interest here because when I worked for Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, it was my report and my recommendation that led to the creation of Maggie's Post. Now look, Maggie's a very interesting police officer. She came into policing after a very long and distinguished career elsewhere. And so she's, you know, a fully fledged officer, but she brings with her insight experience from outside of policing. My view on this today is that the police have got to open their doors. They've got to get out of the bunker. Look, quite frankly, the Met needs to be stepping up and fronting this and talking to the public about what's happened, why it's happened and what's being done about this. We need to be

inviting the public into policing. I've just started a job in mental health a foundation trust we have service users and those with lived experience on all of the senior interviews we have them right at the get-go in in in terms of developing our strategies why aren't we seeing in a policing a similar opening up of the doors of inviting in isn't if i may if just just just because of this thought you've had in a thought i've had if you were to open up the doors this isn't actually some of this a lot of this isn't about what you'd see if you walked into a station or riding around potentially in a police car on operation this is about text messages this is

about messages sometimes about the women in their lives and what they think works and then talking about who they have sex with and what they think is an acceptable way of having, in inverted commas, banter and jokes. So it's a concern that actually it's not about what they're doing at work. It's about them. Yeah, I agree. Look, I think we've set the bar far too low in terms of acceptable behaviours. And we haven't set the bar high enough in terms of the type of person that we want to come into policing in the first place. Why is it, Emma, that in most police forces, we recruit people, they have to come in as a PC, we can't bring them in normally at higher ranks.

There's been a bit of what's called direct entry, but not very much. Why is it that most police forces are putting their brand new recruits straight into those areas of policing where, and this is a generalisation, where the closed culture is most likely to prevail in response policing, where you're out there 24-7 on the front line, dealing with all of the difficult jobs, running around in blue lights, going to an emergency. Why aren't we putting our new recruits into public protection units, into child protection, into domestic abuse, into frontline neighbourhood policing where they're problem solving and dealing with people on a face-to-face

in a caring environment? Let's turn on the head the way that we recruit people. Well, there's a message on recruitment here saying it's not a cool or aspirational job choice, hence the reliance on low-quality candidates. That's one very clear view just come in there. But Shabnam, let me come back to you. There's a few messages, two I'm going to read together. Tristan says, you 100%, just a first response to that.

Well, I think, unfortunately, Christian's a little bit deluded. The fact is, when you're dealing with members of the public, whether they are victims or even perpetrators, you treat them with dignity and respect. They are coming into your domain where they are perhaps not even used to working with police officers or going to the police. So, to suggest that these are so what comments just goes to show the seriousness of the issue that we're facing across society in general. So not saying it's not serious, but maybe you can't change people is the point. Do you believe that? No, I think you can change people. I think that it's not a question of changing people.

It's about making them understand what their behaviour is and how it impacts on others. And I think that that's a very simple common sense approach, really. If somebody made a comment to you and you were offended by it, and then you suddenly say, look, I'm really offended by that, and then suddenly everybody else closes ranks on you, you can understand why people don't necessarily speak out. And this is one of the real problems within policing. It was an experience I had in my early stages. It followed me throughout my career. And I know many officers who want to speak out, who have extreme courage and bravery to come and speak out about the issues that they're facing. And then suddenly senior managers, frontline managers, the senior leaders at the top want to brush it under the carpet as banter when it's not bent up. Final thoughts just from a listener who is ex-police that I also

wanted to put to you if I may. This text message reads, none of these messages are defendable nor is the behaviour. However, I would ask you this, why does it happen? Why do we end up in this situation? What is the mental state of these officers? How did they get there into this mental state? Perhaps if we look at the abuse, the vilification of these officers? How did they get there, into this mental state? Perhaps if we look at the abuse, the vilification, the violence that they suffered 24-7, it sooner or later has an effect. I'm an ex-police officer.

The language in the text was used to me every day, year after year, along with threats to rape and murder my children, and this would be every day. What would you say to that, Shabnam? I would say that you only need to look at social media with police officers and anonymous accounts, for example, and you then need to look at what you mentioned earlier on about the internal WhatsApp groups. The fact is, even if you want to let off steam, there's certain ways of letting off steam. It doesn't mean to say you have to berate victims or perpetrators or witnesses that come into contact with you. The fact that what happened with Nina

Smallman and Beaver Henry not that long ago and now this has reared its ugly head. There is a culture and a certain type of behaviour within policing, retired or otherwise. I did put up with a lot but I have to be honest with you, I remember the banter and I'm ashamed that I put up with a lot of it. But I do not recall comments like this because these are with groups who think they're in a safe environment and they're not. Shabnam Chowdhury, you served as an officer in the Met for 30 years. Thank you very much for your time this morning. And thank you for the views and experience of Zoe Billingham there,

former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary. And many, many messages coming in. I also wanted to read this one from Veronica who says, Canteen culture is an extension of what's happening in our schools. Boys get away with unacceptable behaviour at school through taunts and social media. This is naturally then continuing into adult life. Keep your messages coming in.

We did contact the Met by email and phone. No one available to speak to us today. I do hope that will change. But a statement that was put out yesterday, the conduct of a team of officers at Charing Cross Police Station in central London does not represent the confidence of many in the Met. Since this reprehensible behaviour was uncovered, in 2017 we've taken a series of measures to hold those responsible to account and stamp out unacceptable behaviour. Annual messages continue and I will return to them when I can. But somebody's just walked into the studio,

somebody very exciting I know many of you want to hear from because my next guest's first novel, Brick Lane, published nearly 20 years ago in 2003, was shortlisted for the Booker Prize, published in 26 languages, and was a literary sensation. Set in the Bangladeshi community in East London and told the story of a young woman

married off to a much older man, it catapulted its author, Monica Alley, to the global stage. Well, she's back, having overcome some writer's block and a period of vowing not to write again, apparently, with her fifth novel, Love Marriage, out this week. Monica Alley, good morning. Good morning.

Lovely to have you with me in person. It's lovely to be here. Two families in this story, just to talk first, of course, about the work that you've been beavering away on, the Garamis and the Sangsters are brought together when Yasmin and Jo, both doctors, fall in love. And we meet Yasmin the day before her parents are due to meet her future mother-in-law.

Why is she so nervous? Well, actually, it's quite complicated because there are two different cultures involved. So that's one aspect of it. But more than that, she's got this social embarrassment. You know, her parents are going to be so embarrassing. Other families are normal.

We're not normal. And I think that's something that's common to so many of us. Some of us grow out of it sooner than others. There's also the fact that her parents are quite conservative and Joe, her fiancé's, his mother, Harriet, is famed for a memoir about her very colourful love life and about a very explicit feminist photograph that she'd had done a couple of years, a couple of decades ago.

So I had little brothers winding her up about that. So there's also a class angle because Yasmin's family is middle class. Her doctor is a GP. But Jo's family lives in Primrose Hill, which is a very she-she, wealthy part of London. So there's a comedy of manners in that opening section where these two different worlds are coming together. And Yasmin imagines that they're going to collide. Yes, and I love the fact that her mother basically makes all the food

for the dinner that she's not hosting. Well, you know, Anissa's being a good guest, and she's working her socks off to be the perfect guest. And, of course, Yasmin is a guest, but Harriet loves it. And, you know, the lasagna is abandoned, Anita's food is eaten. And far from it being a clash of cultures, in fact, the complete opposite happens. They almost get on too well, don't they? They get on too well for Yasmin's liking.

And Yasmin really thinks she has it all sorted, doesn't she? Tell us about her. So she's a young doctor. She's 26 years old. She works in the NHS at a London hospital in the care of the elderly department. She's very much in love with Joe, who is charming, a fellow doctor, handsome, wealthy, caring, everything that you could want. And then he does the unthinkable and cheats on her then she goes off and has revenge sex which is totally shocking to herself I mean there's quite a lot of sex in this book which was which was great

there is quite a lot of sex did you enjoy did you enjoy writing it yeah I was dreading writing the sex scenes and I was thinking about the other day when I was writing Brick Lane and one of the characters, Nazneen, has an affair, but it felt in keeping with Nazneen's character that I could just draw the curtain at the stage that, you know,

they were about to get into bed. Whereas with Yasmin, sex is, I mean, it's fundamental to the book in so many ways to all of the characters, but for Yasmin, sex is, I mean, it's fundamental to the book in so many ways, to all of the characters. But for Yasmin especially, it's part of how she learns to understand who she is, what she wants, what she could be, how she's going to operate in this world. So I knew I couldn't bottle it. I had to actually write the sex scenes. And I

was sweating. I was dreading it. Because, you know, you might end up using words like throbbing or, you know, member or things like that. Did you have to take a few throbbing members out? Did they creep in? They didn't actually creep in. And it was not as bad as I was expecting. I actually had a great deal of fun writing them. And because it was so, because it wasn't added on, because it was so integral to her character and the story, actually it was fine. And there's a period sex scene as well.

I mean, we're not going to do lots of spoilers from the book, but that is one of those moments that, you know, even if you're not like Yasmin, where she's grown up in a house where sex isn't discussed, and it's not a topic for conversation. You know, for a lot of women, they would be quite stressed with having that sort of experience and certainly what she saw afterwards. Yeah, exactly. A crime scene, we could put it a bit like that, as she describes it. The bloody handprints on the wall. I mean, I think it could be stressful for any woman, particularly with a new lover, an illicit new lover. That's going to be maybe a little bit, give you pause for thought.

But for Yasmin, it carries an extra weight. Although she is not religious herself, she's been taught because Anissa, her mother, is a practicing Muslim that it's forbidden that one does not have sex at that time of the month. And that is something that she has followed because Yasmin is a follower of the rules. So for her to start breaking the rules, it's a real turning point. You know, so it's a sort of a liberation. It shows her a different possible side to herself.

I love that you say you had a lot of fun writing this and certainly those bits that you've just described. But writing has proven difficult for you at certain points over the years. And at one point you vowed not to write again. Yes. Why was that? Well, I think I just had a major loss of confidence.

So I stopped writing. And when I wasn't writing, I got depressed. And that, of course, makes you even less confident. So I fell into a sort of vicious, you know, downward spiral. But, I mean, I came out of it. And actually, something that, oddly enough, contributed to finding the joy of writing again was I started to try to write for television screenplays I think because

I was watching a lot of television at the time and I really really enjoyed it you know I love the collaborative aspect I you know found my kind of voice again nothing ever got made but it didn't bother me but it did spark that just recognition that this is what I need to be doing I need to be writing no matter what and now it's come in useful because um I'm adapting love marriage for for television as well so all of those skills are coming back yeah they're coming back around but how you know a lot of people listening to this may think, you know, nearly 20 years ago, she wrote Brick Lane. You know, she wrote a book that spoke to me in lots of different ways. How could Monica Ali lose some confidence?

How could that happen? And of course, it can happen to anyone. But what would you say to that? Yeah, I mean, I'd say it can happen to anyone to the best of us um and I think for me there was a feeling that I had that um my authenticity I hate that word but I'm so I'm doing air quotes um was being you know perhaps questioned that uh you know people would would ask me, are we trying to get away from Brick Lane in some way, which, you know, I didn't, I didn't know how to take that other than are you trying to get away from your ethnicity or the colour of your skin, which is just, you

know, a bizarre and actually kind of insulting thing to be saying. But actually, I wrote about different things, because I'm not one thing. You're talking about in your subsequent books? In my subsequent books, you know, yes, my father's Bengali, I was born in Dhaka, my mother's English, I was, I've lived here all my life. So to me, it would have been totally inauthentic to try to pretend, well, this is my brand. This is what I have to, you know, continue with in order to sell books, you know, in order to fit into a sort of, you know, what would have been a phony brand for me.

And be pigeonholed in that way. Well, I don't even say it is about being pigeonholed. I am not one thing or another. But we are very keen, aren't we, to put people in certain places and that's how we understand them. And nuance and difference of direction is sort of not often understood or certainly welcome, and especially in a commercial situation. I read, and you tell me more, that it was a particular type of meditation that really helped you through that time. And I think when

people listen to whoever's gone through something, they often like to know what was it. And you talked about the writing, but what was the meditation part? Okay, so I do Vedic meditation. I mean, people might know the term transcendental meditation. And I think, you know, you have to have been to the particular school that teaches that and it's trademarked or whatever. And I didn't go to that one. So I call it Vedic meditation. It's mantra based. And I had tried meditation many times over the years, which focused on breathing. And I would just find that I felt like I was on the verge of a panic attack. I just could not cope with that particular kind. It didn't suit me. So when I found the the mantra-based meditation, it was a total game changer and honestly, life-changing. I heard that thing so many times that you are not your thoughts and I thought that was total

codswallop. I mean, what else am I other than my thoughts? And meditation has helped me to see that there is a truth in that, you know, that you can see the thoughts that you're having and you don't have to always engage with them. And disrupt the sort of rhythm of them. Well, it's very nice of you to be able to share that. Thank you for doing so, because you never know who you'd help as well, who might just be having, you know, one of those moments or a series of moments yes and the book i was very very happy to have an early copy of and i've greatly enjoyed reading i wish you all the best with it thank you so much for coming to talk to us thank you monica ali there with love marriage out this week and and very nice to have a guest in the studio i must stress that it's been uh it's been a real desert being able to talk face to face in these past two years but let me tell you about who you're next going to hear from, because after the notorious RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg,

the Supreme Court Justice, who, of course, died in September 2020, Gloria Allred is probably the best known women's rights lawyer in America. Respected, feared, but also deemed controversial by some. For nearly half a century, she's represented women in cases almost exclusively when they are victims of domestic violence or employment discrimination or sexual violence. And now aged 80, she shows no sign of slowing. The opposite, in fact. From early on, she's played a role in such cases as supporting women demanding local authorities, for instance, help get them their outstanding child maintenance from the fathers of their children.

You may recall in 95, she represented Nicole Brown's family in the murder trial against OJ Simpson. He was acquitted of the criminal charges, but with Allred's support, the victim's family won a $33.5 million, I should say, dollar judgment against him in civil court. Fast forward to 2015, Gloria Allred was representing at least 28 of the women who accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault, harassment and other misconduct.

More recently, she represented key witnesses in the New York trial of Harvey Weinstein, where he was convicted and imprisoned for 23 years. Continuing to represent 20 accusers of Jeffrey Epstein, she keeps a close eye on how various aspects of that case develop, including the case of Ghislaine Maxwell. When we spoke at the beginning of this week, I discussed with her, amongst other things, the situation that the Duke of York is currently facing. Legal experts have predicted Prince Andrew, or had predicted, I should say, would seek a settlement. But he has taken what some have described as a dramatic decision to try and face his accuser, as it seems at the moment, Virginia Dufresne, in court, becoming the first member of the modern royal family to submit to being cross-examined over serious allegations. I asked Gloria Allred if she believed Prince

Andrew's decision was a bluff or for real. Well, he doesn't really have much choice about whether or not he answers the complaint that was filed against him, which of course he did answer. And of course, he did demand a jury trial. But that is really not what much of the press has made it out to be. Because in New York, in a federal case, if one party demands a jury trial, and Virginia did demand one in her complaint, then the other party is going to be subjected to a jury trial. And so he might as well just say, I demand it, which he did, because if he demanded a bench trial, meaning one by the court, he would have had to have a jury trial anyway. Now, as to the question of the settlement which you posed, that's always an option that can be explored in a civil case. Any discussions of settlement are confidential.

We are now in the position where it's being litigated publicly, and her attorney is saying that she wants vindication. And essentially he's saying that that would have to be a very large number, an amount of money that he would have to pay to settle it. And it appears that the next step is going to be having his deposition, his testimony under oath taken. And that will be in the UK, probably in the next few months. We should also say Virginia Dufresne claims she was trafficked by the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell to have sex with Prince Andrew three times when she was a teenager. The Duke of York has consistently, vehemently denied those allegations.

The papers filed by Prince Andrews, the latest papers that we know about filed by his legal counsel, contained 41 separate denials of claims made by Virginia Dufresne in August of last year. In terms of how you see this playing out, I know it's speculation at this point, but you have a long history of these sorts of cases. It's notable that the lawyer representing Virginia has said they'll only accept a settlement if it held Andrew to account. What do you think could happen next and how do you interpret those words about holding him to account? I translate that to Virginia's asking for a very large amount of money. It may be seven figures. It may even be eight figures. OK, it's definitely going

to be in the millions. No question about that, in my mind. So they want this to be a public litigation. That is, Virginia does. And of course, she's entitled to that. She has a right to have a public trial if the case doesn't settle. And of course, every trial in a civil case is a public trial. And so she'll get that if that's what she wants. Now, does she really want that? We don't really know. the reports have been also mixed on because there have been some reports which say if he continues to deny he ever met her, regardless of whether he agrees to a financial settlement, that will not be good enough for her. That there has to be some kind of admission that even though he's consistently denied this. Now, when he has his deposition taken by the legal team for Virginia. They're going to pin him down as much as possible. He's not going to be able to just kind of skate around and avoid and evade, try to have some kind

of answer. That really is not an answer to the questions because they get to follow up. It's not going to be softball, as they say. It's not going to be like a television interview that you had on the BBC, which was a good interview, but frankly, not the kind of questioning that he's going to face in a deposition. There, they're going to be very specific. They're going to follow up on his answers. If he doesn't answer specifically, they're going to ask him again. They may very well have evidence, electronic evidence, or emails, direct texts, photographs that they have not made public, that they will show to the prince to challenge some of his answers and ask for a follow-up. It's going to be

the kind of examination that my guess is he's never had before and will hope that he's never going to experience again. I might add that, of course, his defense will also have an opportunity to take the deposition of Virginia. And that will happen at some point. And that's not going to be a pleasant experience for her either. But, you know, that's part of a lawsuit. Are you going to be involved in any way? I just was asking this because your daughter, Lisa Bloom, you work separately as lawyers, of course, but is representing eight Epstein victims

and said that they could offer support to Virginia Dufresne at her sexual assault civil trial if it gets to that place, against Prince Andrew, potentially be character witnesses. Because I know that you've also had some involvement with some of the individuals involved in this. And I just wondered, would you or could you be involved? Well, I do represent 20 accusers of Jeffrey Epstein and have represented them either in litigation and or in the Epstein Compensation Fund. But I, you know, I am not ready to say whether or not any of them may or may not have evidence pertaining to Prince Andrew. So I just don't have any comment on that.

Not at the moment. It was just noticeable that particular comment from your daughter. And I respect that you can't say that yet. You're right. We have separate law firms. Yes. It just must be quite the dinner table when you guys get together with the line of work you're both in. Well, I mean, generally, we don't talk about cases because, you know, we have other things to discuss as a mother and daughter. I'm sure you do. It's just notable and it's good to explain to our listeners that there is this connection because they'll be aware, some of them, of your daughter's work and aware of yours.

Just to come back to this, and the time I can link you to, if you like, Prince Andrew, is because in September 2020 you hired a school bus, an American yellow school bus, to drive around Buckingham Palace with two photos of the prince saying, if you see this man, please ask him to call the FBI to answer their questions. This is with regard to Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think that's fair? Do you think that's the role of a lawyer? Absolutely. Because the prince absolutely had information that was relevant to their criminal investigation of Jeffrey Epstein and

Ms. Maxwell. And the Homeland Security, FBI, law enforcement did something very unusual. They said publicly they wanted to interview and speak to Prince Andrew. And he could have done that in the UK under something called MLOT, the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty between the UK and the United States. It's really a mystery as to why it appears that the Home Office in the UK did not arrange for or insist on that interview. But moving along, I hired the school bus with that big poster banner on it that did say what you said. You didn't put Jeffrey Epstein's face on it. You put Prince Andrew's. Well, yes, because I said, if you've seen this man, meaning Prince Andrew, please ask him to call the FBI. And then I provided the telephone number for the FBI

because they wanted to speak to him and he was refusing to do it. We do know, or do we know, and my ignorance here, that he never did because the line at the time from the palace or certainly from those representing him was that he was complying with all legal requests and it was his choice or not you tell me to have that discussion do we know he didn't look we don't know one way or another to a certainty but it's my educated guess that he didn't and it's based on the fact that there was so much pressure for him to speak. It seems to me that he would have said, or law enforcement would have said, yes, he did speak to us. There was just dead silence after that. So you know what? Maybe he will be asked that very question,ily in his deposition i'm just

going to say something which gloria i don't wish to to correct you on on law or anything else but i'm emma if you uh if you if you want to know that i'm sorry you haven't got my name in front of you but i just think we we could we can we can say that to each other reading so many different victorian novels you could thank you my mom when i was bad called me emily um so you could you can Perhaps it's from my reading so many different Victorian novels. Thank you, Emma. My mum, when I was bad, called me Emily. So you can go there if you want. Well, you're being good, so I'll call you Emma. I hope you don't mind me saying that.

Don't at all. Thank you. So let me just go to the recent case with Ghislaine Maxwell. The legal team for Ghislaine Maxwell, if I may, just to get your take on something with this, filed a request for a retrial over a juror's revelation that he was a victim of sexual abuse. How likely do you think that is? Because a lot of people who will have seen that, certainly on this side of the pond, you know, we don't often know anything about jurors here. I don't think that is that's a regular insight. It's obviously different what can happen on your side of the pond. But how likely do you think a retrial is? I think it's a very possible result. It's a possible outcome. prospective, in other words, potential jurors prior to the decision being made as to whether

they would be asked to serve on the jury. In other words, there's what we call a voir dire process where those questionnaires, after being filled out, are then supplied both to the prosecution and the defense and the court. And those questionnaires are relied upon by the prosecution and defense when they decide which jurors should be selected. Now, if this juror in question who alleges that he was sexually abused as a child, that in fact he spoke during the jury deliberations to other jurors and helped them to understand and even to persuade them that some of the victims who testified, who may have testified inconsistently or only revealed certain facts over a long period of time, that they should be believed, then the issue of whether or not he was sexually abused becomes a material factor and as a result could lead to overturning the verdict and let's put it this way setting it aside and a new

trial being granted we will have to wait and see what he said on that questionnaire well thank you for explaining that i mean i should also say and to remind our listeners glaine maxwell was found guilty uh of of luring teenage girls to be sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein, an outcome long sought by women who spent years fighting in civil courts trying to hold her accountable for her role. Talking of justice, I'm aware of, is it a Ruth Bader Ginsburg statue behind you or a little figurine I can see? Yes, absolutely. You've got a couple maybe that. Yeah, this is I do. I do. I'm a big Ruth Bader Ginsburg fan. And I had the honor and pleasure of meeting Justice Ginsburg. And if anyone goes to my Web page, Gloria Allred dot com, they will see a wonderful photo of Justice Ginsburg and I talking in the courtroom of the United States Supreme Court when I was there one time for a reception to honor a federal judge. And I was sitting in the courtroom waiting for the judge to come out who was going to be honored. And I looked down and I felt someone

was standing next to me. And I looked up and there was Justice Ginsburg. So I immediately stood up and we had a wonderful chat. She had been apparently very aware of my work for women's rights. We are the leading women's rights law firm in the United States and have been for 47 years. Somebody I know took a photo of the two of us standing there chatting. And afterwards, this person said to me, Gloria, I took a photo of Justice Ginsburg of us standing there chatting. And afterwards, this person said to me, Gloria, I took a photo of Justice Ginsburg and you're chatting. Do you want it? I said, I don't know if you're even allowed to take a photo in that courtroom. And she said, well, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't know that. Do you want the photo or not? I said, well, yes, please send it. And then this other person also took photos

of Justice Ginsburg and I having dinner together in the Supreme Court dining room, where we were there to honor the federal judge. And the host of the dinner surprised me and sat me next to Justice Ginsburg. So we had a long time to chat. I can only tell everyone she is everything that people thought she was and more just so committed to women's rights and rights for minorities. I love that you're, you know, as this is radio for me to describe, I love that since I've mentioned this little statue where she's got a crown and a cape, you've been holding it like a microphone. By the way, she said not, you know, somebody, we have nine justices on the United States Supreme Court. Someone asked her how many should be women. She said nine. And then people were surprised. And she said no one was surprised when there were nine men on the Supreme Court.

Why would they be surprised that I say there should be nine women? Gloria Allred there at the end of our conversation, reminiscing about her evening with Ruth Bader Ginsburg at a Supreme Court dinner giving you an insight there I hope let's talk now to Val McDermid the successful and popular Scottish crime writer who has stopped sponsoring a football club

that's been part of her life since she was a baby she stopped supporting Wraith Rovers because it signed up David Goodwillie who in a Scottish civil case in 2017 was found to have raped a woman. He was fined £100,000. Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, and the former UK Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, have also condemned the signing.

Val McDermid, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thanks for being with me today. Tell us a bit more about your decision. Well, it was quite clear to me that the Rovers shouldn't have signed someone who was convicted of rape in a civil court and who has never demonstrated a moment's regret or responsibility for what he did. It sets a terrible example to what was supposed to be a community club. We've got a very strong sense of the Rovers being rooted in the community in Kirkcaldy and the surrounding area. We have, for example, women and girls teams

from age under 10s right up to the women's teams who are appalled and horrified at this signing. It's just a wrong thing to do for the club. I think it sends all the wrong messages. Now, as a writer of crime fiction, I fully understand rehabilitation and redemption. It's one of the features of my books. But I also understand the power of crimes like this against the victims. And in a way, Denise Clare, the victim of this, who gave up her right to anonymity so that she could tell the world what had been done to her, has been forgotten in all this. Denise and all the other women who have been victimised by men who are sexually violent over the years have got lost in all this. And David Goodwillie is a man who has taken part in this sort of violence against women. It's not the sort of message we

want to send to our supporters, to our young people, to the people of Kirkcaldy to say, here's someone to look up to, because he's not someone to look up to. For the club to make this cynical decision on the basis of football issues seems to me to be appalling. We do have a statement from Wraith Rovers, and you've actually mentioned part of it with regards to this being a football-based decision. To share with our listeners, David is a proven goal scorer. This will be his second stint with the club. The club has carefully considered our position as a community club. We completely respect the differing views among fans and stakeholders. We consider David to be part of the Wraith Rovers football club. The management team is familiar with David's career and background and in particular his footballing ability that's our foremost consideration we acknowledge this signing has divided opinion we aim to rebuild that trust while acknowledging the gravity of what happened 10 years ago

as a club we fully support and encourage rehabilitation many factors influenced our signing but first and foremost this was a football related decision what do you make of that as as the rationale um i think it's possibly one of the worst press statements i've ever seen in my life spent all day putting that together and that was what they came out with um it's it's insane to say that the footballing decision should be the most important thing um it's it's obviously a big part of the decisions that you make when you sign someone for a football club. But what also you should take into consideration is their character and also the message that that sends to your support and beyond. We've already lost the captain of the

women's team who's been involved with the women's club for 10 years. We've lost two directors. We've lost more than 30 volunteers from the community club. Over this? Over this decision? Over this decision. Last night's attendance at the game, 1,005 people, is way lower than our average attendance. Fans are voting with their feet.

I've had people, my Twitter feed, my inbox, has been absolutely crammed with people, Wraith Rover supporters mostly, but from all around the world. I've had people contacting me from Canada, from New Zealand, from Germany. This is a story that has inflamed people's passions because we're in a world now where people expect their public figures to have decent conduct, to have decent attitudes towards women. The women's game in Scotland particularly I think has become a real keystone

of Scottish football. The women's game has become popular. I was at a game recently, a cup final, Scottish women's cup final and honestly it was some of the best football I've seen this year. It was a great afternoon. The atmosphere was great. We want to move into a world where every game is like that, where there is no misogyny, where women could attend the matches without seeing someone on the pitch

who has a conviction for sexual violence. We have a message here from Graham who says, it was the hurt in my son's eyes yesterday as a Wraith Rovers fan. He's made the decision he can't go back, but can't understand how a handful of people have destroyed this for him. And Holly says, I said on Monday,

I wouldn't be back for a while, but after the statement they made yesterday, I just won't be back. I'm not sure that they can come back from their utter and open disregard of what their fans think. And someone else has got in touch, Rosie, saying, thank you for taking this stand on behalf of all of us, Val.

And I'm glad that women are covering this. It's a shift, isn't it, about thinking. And I should, sorry, I should also say, we have been liaising with our colleagues in BBC Scotland who have been trying to reach out to David Goodwillie. They haven't had any response from him. There's a surprise. Is there anything that he could do or say, do you think?

Well, he could start by apologising to Denise Clare. He could start by acknowledging the damage he did to her. He could start by acknowledging the wrongness of his behaviour and how he is prepared to work hard in future to support work against violence against women. That could be something. And I suppose in the meantime, if there isn't anything forthcoming from him, do you think this position can hold from Wraith Rovers? Well, I think people are just leaving the club, quite rightly so. I mean, this is heartbreaking for me.

You know, I love Wraith Rovers. It's been part of my life. My father was a scout for the club quite rightly so I mean this is this is heartbreaking for me you know I love Wraith Rovers it's been part of my life my father was a scout for the club I you know I love the club there's a big stand there that has my name on it my name is on the front of those shirts and and this to me is is just a devastating time and I'm now turning I mean I've kind of pivoted towards the women and girls teams and my position now is to support them into rebuilding their confidence and their trust in themselves they had a meeting last night and the upshot of that is essentially they want to completely distance themselves from Wraith Rovers football club they're currently as we speak having new shirts printed that don't have the Wraith Rovers

crest on them they are committed to playing their fixture on Sunday not at Starks Park the Wraith Rovers ground but another ground in the town at the windmill pitches they're talking about changing the name of the club that will obviously have something to discuss with Scottish Women's Football but they are adamant they no longer wish to be associated with Wraith Rovers. And that's where I'm focusing my attention now, is to rebuild their club and to circle the wagons around them. Just very briefly, close to the end of the programme,

has your name come off the shirt? It will not. I think it still has to stay on the shirts for the rest of the season because contractually I'm signed up to that. But I have cancelled my sponsorship for next season's shirts so David Goodwillie will have a shirt on with your name on it I suspect so yes and I can hear that sigh in your voice yeah and it does I mean I said on my Twitter feed I said that makes me feel physically sick and it does the thought of of my name emblazoned across his chest

is something that profoundly upsets me. Val McDavid, thank you very much for talking to us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.