Woman's Hour - Gloria Steinem at 90, Rebecca Ferguson, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

The pioneering feminist, journalist and activist Gloria Steinem made a name for herself in the 1960s and 70s through her journalism, which included going undercover at the New York Playboy Club to expose exploitative working conditions. She co-founded the Women's Action Alliance and in 1972 she co-founded Ms Magazine, putting conversations about gender equality, reproductive rights and social justice in the spotlight, and bringing the issues of the women's rights movement into the mainstream. Gloria has just celebrated her 90th birthday and joins Emma Barnett to talk about the current state of reproductive rights in the US, the importance of community and hosting her own women's talking circle.Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe spent six years being held by the Iranian regime after visiting her family there in 2016. When she was finally released, she chose to speak first to Woman's Hour, in May 2022. Nazanin shared then what life was like in Iran's most notorious prison, how she survived being away from her daughter and her view on - as she put it - being used a political pawn between Iran and Britain. She returns to Woman's Hour for Emma's last programme, to talk about what she's been doing since she came home.From the X Factor to Lady Sings the Blues, Rebecca Ferguson has become one of the UK’s most successful soul vocalists, renowned for her unique, crisp, husky vocals. Her hit albums include Heaven, Freedom and Superwoman. She has duetted with Lionel Ritchie, Andrea Bocelli and Christina Aguilera, and collaborated with John Legend and Nile Rodgers. Rebecca has also become a notable campaigner for change. Last year she was one of the main contributors to the government's Misogyny in Music report and played an integral part in the introduction of the Creative Industries Independent Standards Authority to protect women. She performs live in the studio, and talks to Emma about her work.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. My last, in fact, here on the mighty Woman's Hour, or the Power Hour, as some of you call it to me. And for my final show, ahead of joining the Today programme next month, I can promise you quite the line-up.

My first guest is Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. You may recall our conversation upon her release two years ago when she returned to her young daughter and campaigning husband, Richard, after six long years of being held by the Iranian regime. It was quite the exchange, and I'm thrilled to be able to welcome her back to Women's Hour this morning. Just as my very first programme in the hot seat had some music,

so will my last, and I am beyond excited to have the soulful wonder that is Rebecca Ferguson singing for us all today. And as she turns 90, it's incredible to be able to tell you we have the pioneering American feminist activist, journalist, organiser, writer and campaigner, Gloria Steinem, on the programme. On that note, many in America may feel that women's rights have regressed

and hard-won battles are being lost once again, something we talked about when I caught up with Gloria earlier this week. I wanted to ask you today about what is still to do and achieve for women. Things may look like they are equal or more equal. The letter of the law in this country spells out equality in many areas of our lives, but the reality can be starkly different. Again and again and again.

Only last week, for instance, when I was interviewing Nicole Hines about representing herself and winning her tribunal against her former employer for being constructively dismissed from her role after she was ignored and portrayed as hormonal by her male manager having revealed her pregnancy. A slew of messages I personally received shows maternity discrimination is alive and well in Britain today. Despite even extra laws coming onto the statute book only in the last seven days. That chasm then between where we're meant to be and where we are.

Tell me your take. What needs to change for women and how can it happen? What is your view on that? I would very much like to hear from you. As always, you can text me here on 84844. Just watch that those texts are charged your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Just watch for those data charges and you can use those same

numbers to get in touch about anything you hear throughout today's programme. But my first guest today is Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. She spent six years being held by the Iranian regime after visiting her family there in 2016, most of that in prison and under house arrest. When she was finally released, she chose to speak first to Woman's Hour. It was a remarkable and important conversation I will never forget, and many of you said the same. Nazanin shared then what life had been like in Iran's most notorious prison, how she'd survived being away from her daughter and her husband,

and her view on, as she put it, being used as a political pawn between Iran and Britain. I'm delighted to be able to welcome Nazanin back to the programme. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, first time on my final show, but first time in the Woman's Hour studio. A warm welcome. Thank you very much for having me. Sorry about my voice. I've got a bit of a cold. It's okay. We're just happy you're here. I'm happy you're here. And it is, last time we spoke was at a slightly different setting. So it is great to have you in this space. I thought we'd start by talking about one of the things, there were many things you spoke

movingly about, but one of the things were about the fate of the other women held alongside with you in Evin Prison in Iran. I remember when we spoke after your release, they were very much in your mind. I know that still continued to be the same. And there has been some progress on that front, I believe, this week. Yes. So I remember the first thing that I said when I came out was my freedom is not complete until such time that my friends from prison are out. And this week, we saw the amazing news that the four environmentalists who were arrested with Morata Abbas, they were all released, they were all pardoned by the Iranian regime, and they were all out. Two of them were women that I have spent time with in prison, but also I have been very close to their families all

the time that they were inside. It's just delightful to see that it's almost hard to believe that they are out. So this morning I was in touch with them and I was telling them that I'm going to speak about them and how amazing it is, how hard to believe it is to think that they're out, home, safe. There is an ending. You will come out of it. But of course, the fight is not over. There will be, there are still many women, many of my friends who were still in prison, including Nargis, who won the Nobel Peace Prize, Nargis Mohammadi,

and many other Baha'is who were in prison in Iran. And I think I will carry on as much as I can to help them at least to shine a light on their plight. Because that has been a big part of your life since being released. It was clear from the beginning that that might be, but that is how it has been, isn't it? It has been. But also I think when I was in prison, I realized how campaigning helped kind of my ordeal and, you know, it shone a light on my plight and not everyone has got that opportunity. So there are not, I mean, there is very little I can do, to be honest, to help these people, but all I can do is to talk about them. And I think this is something that I can do, to be honest, to help these people. But all I can do is to talk about them.

And I think this is something that I can, I will be very happy to do. And I think as long as I can tell their story and I can talk about what they have gone through and the injustice, at least I have, my conscience is clear that I'm doing something for them. Yes, and I also know, and carrying on, giving a voice to those imprisoned and their families has been a key part of your life since returning.

But I also know that you are looking further afield. For instance, this evening, you're doing an event with the Conservative MP Alicia Kearns. She's the chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. She's been on this programme several times actually talking about Ukraine. And you're doing that event alongside the wife of the Russian British political activist and journalist Vladimir Kara Mirza to mark two years since his arrest and imprisonment for opposing Russia's war in Ukraine. How important is that work to you and making sure that you are part of some of those conversations? I do believe that the people who are fighting for those who are inside prison, in my personal opinion, they suffer more. Just because if you look at Vladimir's case, it will be two years today that he has been arrested, but he's been denied of any normal

way of communication. So not knowing where he is kept and not having access to be able to talk to him. I think it's a terrible thing that he has been, you know, denied his basic rights. And I remember I met his wife a couple of weeks ago in Berlin, and she had to bring her son with her. And the thought that, you know, their life is full of struggle, uncertainty and fear, and they don't know when will be the next time that they will see their dad. And these children grew up without a parent. And that's what happened to my family as well. And my child growing up without me. I think there is a bit of our children's childhood that is stolen from us. And I don't think I can

ever get over that bit. So I think there was a value that we talk a lot about how the government has got duty of care and they should protect its citizens who are unlawfully detained and held overseas. And they should, you know, they should take their responsibility and, you know, help them out. Yes, I mean, in terms of that, the Foreign Secretary David Cameron, of course, the former Prime Minister, also met with Vladimir's wife, Evgenia, marking the two years since the arrest with the following statement. I can read a bit of it, which says, two years on from Vladimir's arrest on fabricated charges, I urge the Russian authorities to release him immediately

on humanitarian grounds. A committed human rights activist striving for a democratic Russia and an outspoken critic of the war in Ukraine, Mr. Kara Mirza, was considered a threat by the Kremlin. Putin locked him up in a bid to silence him. I'm sure with the rest of that statement and looking across what the British government have said so far about that particular case, there's much been made of meeting with his wife and also some of those efforts and those statements. But you have lived that experience. Richard, your husband, who a lot of people got to know through his campaigning, not least his final act, really, in some ways, his hunger strike towards the end of your time being detained, had to have that triangulation between state, the foreign office, arguing for your release,

and then overseas with where you were. And, you know, that whole experience, as you just reflect, the family side of that is not something we always hear about. Yes, I have been thinking about my friends, Anilu Farah and Sepideh, the two women, a lot recently thinking, reminding myself of the days that I had come out, thinking that, you know, you leave. Basically, I did not come to what I had left six years ago.

The world has changed. The world has gone through, to say the least, COVID. And six years is a very long time. And they have been away for six and a half years. You know, to go.... We all, specifically through COVID, many people lost their loved ones. So you come out with a huge kind of space that you are almost disconnected from. And then to add to that, you also deal with loss of trauma and anxiety, stress, depression, you depression, fear of going out. And these are things that will take a long time to recover. So I think both families outside and those who have been in prison,

the freedom is sweet, is amazing, but it's not easy. And I think I probably was underestimating how complicated freedom would be. The fact that I personally, when I think about it, I personally think that I was a victim of male politics. So I was arrested by people. Basically, the people who arrested me, interrogated me, took me to trial, were all men. And then the politicians who were discussing how my release would be were also men, except Liz Truss around her time I came back. If I think about it...

As foreign secretary. As foreign secretary, yes. If I think about it, if I want to be honest about it, I was never given an opportunity to talk about how I feel. Obviously, I was in prison, but also when I was taken to trial. I was never given a chance to speak up about, I could never defend,

I was never given a chance to defend myself. And that's appalling if we think about it. There is a fight going on in Iran over one thing, and then the politicians between the two countries of Iran and the UK over one specific debt. And the fact that they can actually take a mother and a baby to use them as a political pawn is beyond me. I feel like a victim of genuinely being a second sex

in a way that no one actually gave me the opportunity to speak. I was a victim as a mother and having a small child into something that had nothing to do with me. And I had no opportunity. I was not given any opportunity to speak up. And I think that is something that should not happen to anyone. And I think that is probably, in my opinion, having a small child specifically.

For a very long time, I was trying to convince myself that this whole thing is sham and it's a mistake and they're going to let me go home just because I couldn't conceive that a government can keep a mother and a baby hostage. But I was wrong. They did it. In fairness, they stood by what they said and they kept me for as

long as they could until they got what they wanted. It's striking. And I know you and I have talked about this on air and off air to hear you talk about being a victim of a male system, male politics, male interrogators, a male judge. Apart from this one exception of the foreign secretary, there were many foreign secretaries while you were in prison. But eventually there a male judge, apart from this one exception of the foreign secretary. There were many foreign secretaries while you were in prison. But eventually there was a woman and she was actually who was in charge when you were freed before her time as prime minister. And I think it's important while you are talking on Women's Hour to hear that, because when we talk about what hasn't been achieved, when we talk about equality,

when we talk about women and their voices, there is a whole system that you have encountered. And it's very striking to hear you describe that in that way. Yes, I was invited to an event and I was sitting behind closed doors next to some other former hostages or political prisoners and we were talking about what we have gone through. They were all men. It was 12 of us and I was the only woman. I think it is rare to take a woman as a political pawn. And if they do that, I think they have to have a very, very good reason for it. And I think that is something that, you know, Richard and many other people, and I think it's probably fair to say that I don't think we can ever thank enough for every single person who

helped us through the campaign that, you know, that took me home. But the story, my story has hit the heart of so many people across the world, specifically women with children. And I think that shows the outrageousness, is that a word? That, you know, I think it's not acceptable that a government or any regime would take a woman and a baby as a political pawn. Because if you look at it specifically within that context, and also when I was arrested, there were more men, successful businessmen arrested for the same reason than women with a young child. Thinking of your friends who've just been pardoned, you said there that you underestimated freedom. May I ask how it has been and what you're able

to say about life since being back with Richard, with your daughter, with Gabriella? Because there's a lot, as you say, that has changed and how you are able to fit back into that space will be very personal. But what are you able to fit back into that space will be very personal. But what are you able to say about that? I think, like I said, I underestimated how complicated it would be. When you think about freedom, you think about the things you have done in the past and then you're just going to go back and carry on doing it.

Except if you're in prison for a long time, those things don't exist anymore. So I came to a home that in my head was very different to what it actually was in reality. My child was not two when I left her and she was eight when I came back and I have lost six years of her childhood. And, you know, people change. We all change. I turned 40 when I was in prison and I often cannot distinguish between have I changed because I have been more mature and turned 50

or have I changed because I have gone through prison? So I cannot really distinguish between these two. But also I came back once the excitement of freedom subsided. I went through a lot of physical and mental problems and I think this is something that people often talk about it but they just I think going through that it will be a very personal experience but um I struggled specifically for a very long time I didn't have to worry about anything apart from my day to think about what I'm going to eat and which book I'm going to read. And then I am at the moment in the life that I have to book holiday camp

and, you know, I don't know, like things that... Work within the school day. Exactly, exactly. And also if someone wants to meet me, someone texts me and say, oh, are you around on the 25th of May? And I'm like, I don't know. I've never thought about two months ahead for the past six years because I was always stuck to go through that one single day. So I really struggle with the modern way of life that people, the very hectic life that people have. But also, you know, going through PTSD, depression and anxiety of meeting new people and getting out of the house. And I think the reason I think about my friends is because the day that they are free is very rosy and

beautiful. But actually, prison brings a lot of trauma with itself, that you can only find that out through time. And I think it's going to take a long time for all of us to recover. Thank you for sharing that Nazanin and I also happen to read this morning you've written a beautiful piece in Harper's Bazaar magazine about learning to create specifically clothes while you were in prison and you mentioned in there you still sew now and that's a part of when there's perhaps a difficult moment, something that you can turn to. I'm sure many of our listeners who are very good at crafting. I am woeful. I should take some lessons from the Womans Hour listeners if they'll still talk to me after today.

I hope they will. And you really I saw some of the images you created, some beautiful dresses. I mean, they look they look wonderful um yes so there are two things that um obviously when you're in prison when you were in prison um the main thing for you to think about is how to spend your time um and i was lucky that i had access to really really amazing books but also we had a sewing machine um i always loved sewing but um that wasn't that was an opportunity. I remember when I was, before I was arrested, I would throw the fabric on the floor and my daughter Gabriela would come and sit on it, telling me that, pay attention to me and not the fabric. So I had to put the fabric away. But that was a time that I felt that I can produce something. And also there is a value in making things

when you're in prison. And, you know, it brings people together and, you know, sharing the skill and everything. So sewing was always a big part and I carry on sewing with freedom. Well, and then women together also, I suppose, coming and sharing skill, which has gone on since time began in many ways.

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe thank you so much for for talking and sharing and speaking of your friends today and and remembering them and others who who are still fighting thank you very much for having me and um I really hope for freedom and justice for the world thank you thank you and I also was just minded we were saying to each other that I hadn't quite remembered but on my very first program, Richard was on here. Your husband, and now my final. It's wonderful to have you here. It was an honor.

Thank you very much. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe there. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. To move to another incredible and inspirational woman and her voice and her story, my next guest in some ways needs very little introduction,

but it would be wrong not to flag some of the key points of this woman's life and work. Gloria Steinem, the pioneering American feminist writer and campaigner, first made a name for herself in the 60s and 70s through her journalism, which included going undercover at the New York Playboy Club to expose exploitative working conditions and talking publicly then about her own, at the time, illegal abortion. She co-founded the Women's Action Alliance in 1971 to empower women to combat sexism in society. And a year later, she co-founded Ms Magazine, putting conversations about gender equality, reproductive rights and social justice in the spotlight and bringing the women's rights movement into the mainstream, many would say. She also co-founded the Women's Media Centre and in 2013 was awarded the Presidential Medal of

Freedom by Barack Obama. Gloria Steinem has very recently celebrated her 90th birthday, and I caught up with her earlier this week. First of all, happy birthday. It's shocking, isn't it? How are you feeling at 90? Well, the mysterious thing is you don't feel very much different from a 50 or 60, maybe different from 20 or 30. But no, it's kind of shocking. Yeah. I wonder when you've been going through your life, a big part of your life has been on the road, meeting so many different people with all sorts of stories and largely women. Had you thought about getting to this point of your life? Had you imagined it

in any way? Not really. I mean, 40 was important, 50 was important, even 60. But I think in my imagination, I never got beyond that. Because just in terms of averages, one can't be confident about it. And also, I didn't see enough women who were this age that I am now to have examples to follow. Well, you're on fresh snow and treading new ground, which is something you've done throughout your career. So in some ways, very well equipped for being that pioneer. I would love to be able to be optimistic with you about women and our lives and the future and in some ways we can be and I will get to that but there are many who feel certainly when they are living in your country and in America that they feel we're going backwards when we're coming to the issue of women's rights many are worried about

regression and the clawing back of hard won ground. Where are you at the moment, Gloria Steinem? Well, it depends where I look. You know, if I look at, you should pardon the expression, Trump, who is bad on every issue, yet he entered the White House. So that is very discouraging. If, on the other hand, I think of and meet with people I know, women who are doing all kinds of careers that they never would have dreamed of a few decades ago, I feel cheerful about it. There are big areas in which we still need very much to advance. I would say that one is men raising children as much as women raise children,

because it certainly humanizes and instructs both women and men. But right now, it's still quite unequal. And we still have a pay gap. So there's no shortage of work to do. But now we know we can because we have had a women's movement for most of the lives of those of us who are alive now. Yes. I mean, there is also the phenomenon of, and it's not a phenomenon, there are millions of women in your country who did vote for Trump and will vote for him again. But it's also something that perhaps as the women's movement, you also have to understand. Well, it's hard to generalise because the way we take voting statistics is not very minute, but it is mostly white women who are dependent on their husband's incomes. That's the single biggest group voting

for Trump. So in a sense, they are voting their husband's interests. It's something to be watched, certainly, as we head towards that election. And when we talk about America and women's rights, it would be remiss not to get your take at the moment on what has happened since Roe v. Wade was overturned in June 2022. Of course, people will remember you if they're familiar with your work. And certainly, you know, if they were around in 1973, when you were celebrating the US Supreme Court's ruling in the case of Roe v. Wade.

And we are now looking at 14 states and acting near total abortion bans, seven states now limiting the procedure somewhere between 12 and 18 weeks gestation. There's a concern around contraception being targeted next. What's your view about this? How fearful are you of the future for women's reproductive rights in America? Well, yes and no. It depends what we do, because we started out completely flouting the law anyway anyway about abortion, which is, you know, very dangerous because obviously a lot of them were not legal. I mean, where I live here in Manhattan, there was a clinic across the street

from me where abortions were performed. And I always used to see women driving up in old battered cars, you know, coming from other states to go and get this fundamental service. I think one of the things we don't understand is how crucial that issue has been throughout the history, at least history as we know it. For instance, when Hitler was elected, and he was indeed elected, the very first thing he did the next day was to order the closing of all clinics and declaring abortion a crime against the state. So, you know, for dictatorships, the control of women's bodies to determine racial balance for many reasons has always been fundamental. But we don't, at least in my country, often get this taught in government courses. So I suppose when you look at the context within which this happened, it's happened under Joe Biden. I know that's how the Supreme Court is formed and there's a whole story to that. But do you feel this is going to be a permanent situation or your point is women will take control where they need to anyway? Yes, no, it's definitely true before and after Roe v. Wade that women are

going to make this decision anyway. But the question is in how much safety and with how much support. How do you think this has happened? For those who view this as a regression, what has happened? What has changed for this to go backwards, as some would see it in the women's movement? And is some of that to be laid at the feet of the movement?, if we don't have control and decision making power over our own bodies, we are not living in a democracy. So this we always understood, but we may have underestimated the power of religions and the power of racism. You know, remember that this country is now on the verge of becoming a majority people of color country. The first generation of babies who are majority babies of color has already been born. Now, this seems, you this seems a great thing. I mean, we're going to have better relationships with other countries, look more like the world,

better food, I don't know. But it is not perceived by those who are extremely race conscious as anything except a big danger. You've always talked about intersectionality within feminism, the importance of it, working closely with black feminists, with women of colour. And yes, at the same time, we're in an era of people cancelling each other, censoring each other if they don't agree with each other. And that happens within movements where there is a greater goal and within the women's movement itself. What have you learned through your decades of going out, being on the road, going to campuses, being where there's hot debates about how to work together when you don't agree? Well, it depends on what we don't agree on, you know, because I am not going to work together with somebody who doesn't think

that reproductive freedom is a basic human right, like freedom of speech. But I say, if I was to give just then to be more specific, you know, let's say you're in the women's movement together with another woman and you look at the Middle East right now, and you have completely different views, but you still very much agree on reproductive freedom, but you're finding the other person's take on that particular conflict, egregious to your own take. And then, as I have heard, you know, from women in this position, they simply can't talk to each other anymore. And I just wondered, from your long time in this fight, how you would advise people to navigate political differences

and different views not about the issue you maybe came together on. Well, obviously we should and can move forward on what we agree on and agree to disagree on something else. I mean, this is not rocket science. This is the way we have always, always moved forward. And we have a huge majority anyway on this simple idea that we get to make decisions over our own physical selves. So if we disagree on what would be a foreign policy issue, that is a subject for voting differently, but it doesn't prevent us from working together.

What do you think the women's movement should be focusing on now? Anything they damn well please. That's what I think. No, I mean, it depends what they're experiencing, where they are. It could be reproductive issues, but it also could be age, because women are still more penalized for aging than men in general are. It could be being in a racial ghetto and being deprived of, you know, we don't learn from sameness, we work together. You mentioned there about men raising children and that being important. But we do see the appeal for some men of men's rights activists, divisive figures such as, for instance, online, the self-proclaimed misogynist influencer Andrew Tate. You know, these individuals are gaining traction with some men.

And, you know, some would wonder why when we are as advanced as we have ever been. Well, I think it's because we are as advanced, because they feel that they're losing or about to lose. You know, because two thirds of the country supports equality in general and they're down to one third and they feel threatened. And that's why they say things like you will not replace us. Does that worry you? Is that a concern? Of course it worries me. But I think we're going to win in a good sense. That is, return power to the individual. makeup of families, the right for women to remain single without ridicule. How satisfied are you that at least some of that seems to have come true in some parts of the world? Yeah, I think a lot of it has. I mean, being able to remain single without ridicule is something I

can testify to. In the New York Times, I used to be Miss Steinem of Ms. Magazine because they had to identify women by their marital status, Miss or Mrs., when they did not do that for men. All right, that doesn't happen anymore. personal favorites of yours with your many essays, your many pieces of writing over the years is a semi-satirical essay titled If Men Could Menstruate. And there's just these wonderful lines in it. You know, they'd be standing on the street corner shouting, I'm a three pad kind of guy. You know, these great images you came up with. And it just really hit home. You know, whenever I've shared that with a man, and I have shared it with many men, they just have a smile because they know. They know it's true, Gloria. Yes, I think just exchanging situations is very, very helpful and illuminating. It's also just thinking back to the power that people do or do not have. And I do have to ask you this with the opportunity of talking to you.

What is your read on why America still has not had a female president? What will it take? It's outrageous. It is. You know, I can't. It's so angering. Obviously, Hillary Clinton should have been president all the way back to Victoria Woodhull, who was, I believe, the first woman who actually ran for the presidency, because we have cut our talent in half and we are behind other democracies in the world in that regard. Yeah, I mean, you still say when you say something's maddening or annoyed, I know a chuckle in your voice. I mean, is that part of the secret to not getting bitter, to having a life of campaigning, to just keep going, to try and have some levity as you do it?

Yes, and also it's a community. We gather together for campaigns, for help with each other's work, whatever it is. We are communal animals. We need each other. And a movement is a glorious way of becoming more communal. How do you, do you have any personal practice or habits that has stopped you from being burned out, kept you not from, you know, for not being bitter, kept your energy up? Yes, well, they're my friend friends. And then I have happened to have a big living room that's centrally located. So just yesterday, I had like, I don't know, 20 people in a talking circle, which is what Native Americans call it. So you sit in a circle and everybody gets a chance to speak and everybody gets a chance to learn from them. Actually, traditionally, you have a talking stick, which you pass around the circle. And while you have it in your hand, you're able to talk. And it's great.

I love that idea, convening in the living room. Maybe I should get a stick in the studio. It'd be quite helpful sometimes to, not to hit or use. I mean, the talking. When you have it, you get to talk and then you pass it.

Maybe the people who work with me would probably like to give me that so I know when to shush as well. It's wonderful to talk to you. Thank you very much for your time. We all wish you a happy 90th and all the best for more Talking Circles. It's shocking, I find. I don't know how I got here, but I'm loving it.

I love that she says it's shocking to be at 90. Gloria Steinem there and Talking St sticks. Good idea. Talking circles. Perhaps you do that. Messages coming in about what hasn't been achieved, what should be for women. No man just linking to that should have any say. One of our listener believes and I'm sure there'll be other views to action or authority. No man should have that on the matter of abortion. Another one here about equality in the workplace, specifically in finance. I worked in finance for the last 24 years and I'm

saddened to say I don't think much has changed. Several women have been hired into senior roles, myself included, but ultimately the treatment we receive, the misogyny we deal with, continues. I speak to young girls looking at careers in finance and I'm at a loss how to advise them to proceed. With so much hope in their eyes, they ask me, things have changed since your day, haven't they? And all I want to tell them to do is run a mile in the other direction. No name on that, but Christine's written in to say domestic abuse should be taken much more seriously by all concerned.

And so those messages continue, and I should say many coming in for Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe too, and what she was able to share in our conversation there. But my next guest has one of those voices you don't forget. And she's using it both on and off her singing mic to talk about women's lives and their sometimes very difficult experiences of the music industry. I'm talking about Rebecca Ferguson, who as a 23-year-old single mother from Liverpool, training to be a legal secretary, shot to fame when she stepped onto that mighty X Factor stage

and gave an audition that would change her life. She has since carved her own creative path with her soulful and stunning music. From her album Lady Sings the Blues through to her latest Heaven Part Two, Rebecca has been lauded by critics critics with The Telegraph declaring her in the same league as Aretha Franklin. Now before I get to talk to Rebecca, I am very thrilled,

I should also say she's here on my final programme. She's going to sing for us all, which is an enormous treat and it's a fabulous one. It was her debut track, Nothing's Real But Love, and she's accompanied fabulous one it was her debut track nothing's real but love and she's accompanied on the piano by nathan johnson and wendy harriet on backing vocals rebecca i'll let you take it away thank you rebecca ferguson with wendy harriet beautiful there on backing vocals and pianist nathan johnson beautiful on our piano here.

We have a very large grand piano in this studio. It's wonderful to see with its cover off and it's wonderful to hear you sing Nothing's Real But Love because nothing is Rebecca. I think that takes us all to a very good place. Yeah, I feel like the world needs it right now as well. We need we need love. We all need to love each other more I think yeah definitely and and it it was your debut uh which I hadn't quite taken in actually because I've followed your your career and different songs along the way and it does what's it like when you sing something that was the original um do you know what I'm I'm quite happy I'm quite proud it originally wasn't going

to be a song that I was going to release as if I wasn't sure about it to be honest you know I was like do I release this don't I release this so I'm so happy that it's gone on to do good things. And you have continued to go on doing good things but actually using your voice a bit differently recently contributing to as some may be aware but contributing to this report looking at problems faced by women in the music industry you gave evidence recently to the Women and Equality Select Committee. It's called Misogyny in Music, the whole report. And it looked across the industry and it said it was endemic.

What was that experience like, giving evidence? To be honest, so I ummed and aahed about giving evidence for like months. I was really scared. I was quite fearful. I didn't want to do it. And then I felt like, no, I need to to do it this is the right thing to do um and it was it was quite liberating actually I felt like it was I felt like the minute I spoke up I named the names and I gave me evidence it was almost like a weight just left my shoulders and the fear left it's the strangest thing but it's almost like when you face your truth and you face your bully um I don't know there's a freedom in it yeah and and also I

imagine for you because you use your voice to such great effect musically to have your speaking voice you know your voice of your mind in that way not alongside music would be quite stark and different for you yeah it was it wasn't it was a scary moment when I decided to campaign for the music industry it was I was scared like I can't lie and pretend it was an easy thing to do for me it was not easy but I do feel like it was the right thing to do and I feel like something changed in me as a woman um I found my voice in a different sense, basically, yeah. Well, we will see if there will be changes. It's probably too soon to say that.

But I mentioned X Factor, I mentioned your way in, I mentioned the journey you're on. I actually read that perhaps you won't be making more albums. Is that the case? I think I'll be making more music. I probably have made my final album, but I'll definitely make new music again. But I feel like I've made my final album now. And what's that? Is that about how you feel around how you put music out? You want to control of of what I'd done in music and I feel

like I'm finally in a place where I'm in complete control and I want to make music that is for fun and sometimes when you put everything into an album um it can feel like a chore at times if I'm being totally honest but now I'm in a place where I'm gonna go record on the weekend and upload it on the Monday do you know what I mean like I mean I think fun a place where I'm going to go record on the weekend and upload it on the Monday. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think fun is key. I was listening to the song you just played on the way in today and had a proper sob.

So you do bring fun to our lives but you also make me cry and make others. I mean, it is a bit of an emotional day for me, I have to say, but it is amazing what you can do with with your music for people their response to it you sort of give it but then what happens to it is a whole other thing yeah I think I like to channel um I feel people's I'm quite empathetic so I feel people's pain and when I write music I like to make music that'll hopefully heal people in some way um I feel like the world needs that and I feel like as artists it's kind of what we're here for it's to channel things that people can't get out in words and i feel like whether

it's music or art any type of art it's we're expressing humanity in a way and i try to make music that expresses what people are feeling yeah have you got singers in the family are they singing along what about the children my daughter's actually really good. Lily has got a really good jazz voice. So yeah, watch this space and see what happens with Lily. Well, I hope she won't go far wrong with your experience and how you can look at this. I also just have to say there's a fabulous tiger stitched onto your jacket this morning.

I do like to describe what I can see because it's a radio programme and it's really staring at me. Oh, thank you. I just had to bring that up at this particular point. But it is so special to have you and have your voice and actually there's a track on your new

album called I Found My Voice which I was really enjoying and listening to this morning. And you're going on a tour? I'm going on tour, yeah. I'm going on tour in May and June which should be fun. A weekend tour which is good as well so it's ideal for the mums, yeah. Was that part of the plan?

That was 100% part of the plan because I get to do the school run in the week and then weekends, it's mum's day off to have fun on stage. I mean, I love that that's your day off as well. I know, yeah, true, true. Working in a completely hard way but fun way, I hope, as well. Do you actually like

being on tour do you get a lot from it I like being on stage the only part of being on tour that I've ever not liked is missing my kids but now I take them with me so weekends

oh you do yeah yeah the kids will be backstage and eating most of the ride yeah I bet I bet they will well Rebecca

it's great to have you I mentioned the album which may be your last as you're saying may not you never know what's, Rebecca, it's great to have you. I mentioned the album, which may be your last, as you're saying. It may not. You never know what's in the future. It's called Heaven Part Two. You were listening to Rebecca Ferguson there and with her debut, which was Nothing's Real But Love.

Before I go, Emma, sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to play you something from the team here at Women's Hour and you need to have a listen to this. Oh, gosh, OK. My first guest today is the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper, the Conservative MP and Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, Caroline Noakes, Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss.

Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Do you think you can do business with these men? Would they even do business with you as a female Home Secretary? Well, look, I'm not going to get drawn into that. Nadine Dorries, the Health Minister with specific responsibility for women's health. These are cuts that your government did and created.

So I refute that, Emma, because the evidence that we're receiving from women is not that they can't access services. What they are telling us is that when they do access services that they aren't listened to and they don't get the treatment they want not because it isn't available because a doctor will prescribe them a course of antidepressants rather than a course of HRT. You cannot deny what one of the most senior doctors has said.

You also cannot deny this fact that there have been cuts. In a moment I'll be speaking to the Minister for Policing but first I wanted to throw this to you here on Woman's Hour. What action do you want regarding women's safety and male violence? You can get in touch with me with what you want to say about this, what you've been thinking about this, what you've been feeling about this, your experiences around this subject. Hello and welcome to today's programme.

I hope you had a good weekend. Over mine, I seem to have inadvertently stumbled into one of the biggest debates of all time. experiences around this subject. Hello and welcome to today's programme. I hope you had a good weekend. Over mine, I seem to have inadvertently stumbled into one of the biggest debates of all time. So big I didn't even know it was a debate. Whether to wear knickers or not under your pyjama bottoms. One woman who's preparing her own very special tribute to the Queen is 92-year-old Margaret Seaman with her knitted Sandringham. It's incredible, it's painstaking and she has painstakingly recreated the Queen's Norfolk residence. Good morning, Margaret.

Good morning. How are you? I'm all the better for talking to you and having had a good look at your Knitted Sandringham, it really is glorious. Then that director

interrupted and said, menopause, menopause. Everybody gets the menopause. You just have to deal with it, that's your excuse for everything. But it was full of swear words as well. And what did you say? I burst into tears. I was hysterical. I couldn't believe I was being met with those comments. A place you'd worked at, as I mentioned, nearly 30 years. Yes, yeah.

Who better than the global literary force that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie? I felt that I could probably have written two novels had I not had my child. But I think that having her also sort of opened me up to this new phase of experience and awareness that I'm hoping will feed my fiction. I'm of course talking about Jodie Comer. But I'm like, I don't want to change the way I want to live. Sometimes you want to go out without a bra. I don't have that option being of the heavier mammary load. But if I could go to the shop without, I mean, the first thing I do, Jodie,

when I get an identity, is to take the bra off. Yeah. Are you the same? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you even up the stairs by that point? No. It's off, door off. We also have the Oscar winning actor,

Kate Winslet. You have been, I think, very brave and outspoken on the appearance side and the expectation of women in your industry. I think women come into their 40s, certainly mid-40s, thinking, oh, well, you know, this is the beginning of the decline.

Things start to change and fade and kind of slide in directions that I don't want them to go in anymore. And, you know, I've just decided, no, we become more women, more powerful, more sexy. We grow into ourselves more. I think it's amazing. Let's go, girls. Let's just be in our power.

Why not? Life's too flipping short, you know? Rebecca Ferguson, you naughty woman and all of you here at Woman's Art. I think you're the only one who's ever interrupted while I've been here to introduce something else.

So thank you. Sorry, I did feel rude. I was like, oh. No, you were not rude i i greatly enjoyed that and i am thrilled to hear faithless as a backdrop to political interviews maybe we should be doing that more maybe that's a suggestion for my new role at the today program uh that is there uh not as a private joke i've mentioned it before but because i write all of my scripts listening to one album from faithless uh rip to Maxi Jazz and Sister Bliss was on this show with me. And I genuinely struggled to speak because it was it was hard to meet her in that way.

And I'm happy to hear that me talking about my heavier mammary load made it to the final cut there. So they were the politicians or some of them, the creatives who've been on the programme with me since I took the hot seat here just shy of four years ago, which has been an incredible ride. I'm not sure I've got many words left to say after that, but I do want to thank you for your company during my time in the Woman's Hour hot seat. I first presented the programme actually more than 10 years ago. So I have a long association and deep, deep fondness for it and the work that we do here. Thank you for trusting and thinking of us and coming to our amazing team with your views. And I have to say some of the most personal feelings and stories of your lives. I greatly appreciate it. I always say, please get in touch. I love hearing from you. And I really do. And I can also say that Woman's Hour will be a part of me forever. I have been able to do some incredible and important journalism here, broach subjects without fear or favour. And as you also

could hear, have a great laugh too, along the way from talking to the incredible Kate Bush when her single, Running Up That Hill, went back up to the top of the charts all these years on with the success of Stranger Things too. You just heard her there, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, about motherhood and constipation, key part of that conversation, to Emma Thompson about body confidence and pubes of all things.

Many, many moments. But I leave Women's Hour, the longest running women's programme in the world, more convinced than ever of women's power, energy, strength, resilience and wisdom. While I've worked here, I've had the privilege of even giving birth to one, our little girl. It has been quite the ride. And my hugest thanks go to the women behind the scenes who make this great engine roar day in

and day out and to my co-host Anita Rani who ain't going anywhere, I can assure you of that and on that note I'm only moving to a little earlier in the Radio 4 schedule I'm being quite delusional about the early starts to the Today programme from next month so I do hope you won't be a stranger and you may consider joining me there if you're not there already.

I'm sure many of you are because, my God, I'm going to miss this. I'm going to miss you. But rest assured, I remain wholly committed and totally convinced of the need for a woman's lens on the world. And I am taking that with me and some. I can very much promise you that it has never been more crucial. So for the last time, thank you very much indeed for your company, for being with us today, for sending your views, for sharing what you think about women's and women's place in the world. Woman's Hour will be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4,

this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War II. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker. We'll hear of daring risk-takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that

I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.