Woman's Hour - Goalkeeper Hannah Hampton, Celine Song on Materialists, Women in construction

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

England goalkeeper and Lionesses legend Hannah Hampton joins Nuala McGovern on Woman's Hour fresh from winning the UEFA European Women's Championship. Born with a serious eye condition, doctors told her she should never play football. She came into the recent Euros with questions over her ability to fill the gloves of recently retired Mary Earps. To add to that, she revealed her grandfather had died just days before the biggest tournament of her life began earlier this summer. Despite this, Hannah had an extraordinary tournament, particularly in those agonising penalty shootouts. She joins Nuala McGovern to chat all about it. In June this year in Pakistan, Bano Bibi, a mother of five, and Ehsanullah Samalani, a father of three, were accused of having an affair and were shot - on the orders of a tribal leader, according to police. The event caused outrage, not just because it was another so-called ‘honour killing’, but because the authorities only took action after a video of the shootings went viral, more than six weeks later. Nuala is joined by Azadeh Moshiri, Pakistan Correspondent for BBC News, and Sheema Kermani, a woman's rights activist, dancer and theatre director who has been working with women in rural and marginalised communities for 50 years. Writer and director Celine Song’s semi-autobiographical debut Past Lives earned her two Oscar nominations and a host of other accolades when it was released in 2023. She talks to Nuala about her second film, Materialists, a romantic dramedy starring Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans, and how it was inspired by her own time working as a matchmaker for high-net-worth individuals in New York. Construction employs around 1.4 million people in Great Britain, according to the Office for National Statistics, but only around 15% of those people are women. And they don’t always have a positive experience, with 30% having reported sexual assault at work and 64% saying men were paid more for the same role. So, as the industry faces a recruitment crisis, how could it evolve to become a safer and fairer place to work and encourage more women into construction? Nuala explores the problems and the opportunities with Faye Allen, author of Building Women, and Dr Carol Massay of Unity for Construction, who’ve both worked in the industry for more than 30 years. And we remember long-serving Blue Peter editor Biddy Baxter, renowned for turning the children's show into a television institution, who has died at the age of 92.Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Ever feel like car shopping is designed to make your second guess yourself? Is this a good price? Am I making the right choice? With car gurus, you don't have to wonder. They have hundreds of thousands of cars from top-rated dealers and advanced search tools, deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cairg-g-U-R-U-S.ca.cagurus.ca.cagurus.ca.ca.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning, a brand new week on Woman's Hour and a great show lined up for you. In a moment, England's goalkeeper, Hannah Hampton, on taking on the mantle off the number one shirt, on winning the euros, and on how she kept her cool during those intense penalty shootouts. Well, Hannah credits her mum and her nan with her resilience. And for those of you feeling resilient this morning, who do you think instilled it in you?

What did you see them do that then helped you to embody it? You can text the programme. The number is 844-on on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444. Dating is a game that we play to find love.

So, says Celine's song, director of materialists. She told me that in our interview. We chat about her new film. It's based on her time as a matchmaker. And she also says that money is the drug of our time. Well, you may have also seen Celine's debut smash that was past lives. Wonderful story. It is based in part on her life story.

She writes what she knows. We're going to talk about it all. Also, the construction industry needs more workers, but women are not signing up to get involved. In fact, only 15% of those employed in the industry are women. We're going to hear from two construction workers who will tell us what stands in the way and also what needs to change. And as you will have just heard in the news bulletin, the sad news, that the legendary Blue Peter editor Biddy Baxter has died at the age of 92.

I'm going to bring you a little off an interview that Biddy had on Woman's Hour back from 2013. That'll be coming up a little later this hour. But let us begin with an interview with someone who may have had you jumping for joy last month, that is assuming you are an England fan. But to be honest, the accomplishments of the lioness's goalkeeper, Hannah Hampton, are an inspiration wherever you're from.

Hannah was born with a serious eye condition, which means she has impaired depth perception. Doctors told her she should never play football. She also came into the recent UEFA European Women's Championship with questions over her ability to fill the gloves of the recently retired Mary Arps. Add to that, she refilled her grandfather had died just days before the biggest tournament of her life began.

Now, despite those challenges, Anna had an extraordinary tournament more than rising to the challenge, particularly in those agonising penalty shootouts. And it was announced last week she's been nominated for the Ballandum. the top gong in football, no doubt helped by the fact that she played a key role in helping her club Chelsea win the domestic trouble last season. Well, I spoke to Hannah a couple of days ago, and I started by asking her how she's feeling. It's going well. I'm shattered. I can't lie. But it's lovely to see the impact that we've

had on the nation and how many people we really get behind us. What's the standout moment for you? What is it when you think back when I say, let's cast our mind back to a few weeks ago. Is there any particular match or any particular moment that you're like is seared in your memory? I think the Netherlands game was more of my favourite from how as a team we got behind one another and we really encouraged and supported and made sure that everyone was really playing their own game and playing with that freedom and showcasing their abilities in a way

that helped us get that win and it showed. You know, that's so interesting that thought of freedom or like surrendering to in a way instead of closing down because a lot of people talk about that and the magic of the team is the belief you had in yourselves to achieve even when chances of winning look slim. There's a staggering statistic from the tournament

you probably heard this, that the team were only in the lead for less than five minutes of the knockout stages. Yeah, that's England. We saw that at the end of the final and we were thinking, no, it can't be. can't be and then we actually were thinking back and it really is and yeah i just think that's that never given up attitude that us english have and wanted to just keep going until the end and

fight it out and we're quite a resilient team and and determined and and it probably showed in getting those results and scoring the goals and the last kick of the games in some instant but it's more lovely to think that i don't know we backed one another from the get-go and we knew that the qualities that we had from the players starting and the players on the bench coming on as subs and even the ones who didn't come on as subs there, their impact that they had and the support and the positivity that they gave from the bench was just gave us that little extra boost to go and make something happen and we knew we had the quality in any player that was coming on that pitch. So yeah, they really showcase what they've got and somehow, somehow we won.

Tell us a little bit as well because there was some controversy when You became England's number one, some were upset, the Mary Arps who had achieved so much, wouldn't be in the squad. How do you keep your composure and a levelhead when there's so much scrutiny and noise, I suppose, I might describe it at coming at you? For me, it was more I'd worked hard to get to what I wanted to achieve. And for that to be happening, I didn't want anything to take that away from me. I knew I had to stay focused to almost repay Serena and say thanks for the belief and confidence that she put in me in making me number one

but it was obviously hard at times when you saw people making comments or comments to you about the whole situation but I wasn't going to let them stop me from achieving what I wanted to achieve. I knew what my dreams were and I knew I could go and do that and the summer just gone so just wanted to stay on myself of stay playing with that, a smile on my face, with that enjoyment. And then I knew I'd be able to showcase what I can do.

I love that. I love that self-belief. You know, I was reading a little bit from Carla Ward, who's the head coach for the Republic of Ireland now. She could go one or two ages. And former Austin Villa manager where you were. And she remembers saying to you, she says, that you can be world number one if you want to be.

And that you're right on track for that. And that was before the final. Yeah, me and Carla have had quite a lot of honest conversations. She's helped me a lot, which she probably doesn't realise in knowing where I want to go, what I wanted to achieve. And I still remember the very first chat we had when she was at Birmingham. And she said, what's your ambitions? What's the club that you want to go to? And we both said Chelsea would be the perfect fit.

And she was like, I'm going to help you get to Chelsea. and for then that to happen and Carla to have as much help as she did in that really meant a lot and even from that conversation again she said what do you want to achieve with England and I said I want to play in a major tournament I want to go on to be a name in women's goalkeeping one that people will look up to and want to base their game around

and it meant a lot of everything that Carla did for me and I'm just happy that we're still able to stay in contact with each other Mary Arps was credited with many things And one big thing which you're talking about there really was making goalkeeping cool again. How important is that to you to see little girls as well wanting to be goalkeepers? It's lovely.

I think like you just said, Mary made it cool and I've got to try and keep that legacy going. It's a very hard legacy to fill. But no, look, she started something incredible and I'm going to try and help finish that and push it to the next step. and if that's encouraging one or two more girls to want to take up goalkeeping, then that's amazing.

But just from seeing the amount of girls or boys wanting to get the goalkeeper shirt instead of the normal shirt in itself is an achievement and a success for us and a little bonus. Do you have any advice for a girl who might be listening, who wants to be a goalie? I mean, some say, and you can tell me whether this is true or not, that goalkeepers are quite unconventional, some people might. Yeah, people say keepers are crazy. I disagree, you know. I'm quite normal. I like to think. Goldcum is a unique position. It's a very individual position and one that requires a lot of resilient determination and a lot of self-belief.

But look, it's a great position at the same time. It fills you with so much joy. I've played with a smile on my face because I enjoy it so much. So if it's what little girls, little boys want to go and do it, then I say go do it. If it's your dream, you go follow. it and you do whatever puts that smile on your face because life's hard in the best of times. And speaking of hard and difficult, you announced recently, and I'm really sorry for your loss, that your grandfather died just a couple of days before the euros began. And he was often there on the pitch with you. Tell me a little bit more about him. Yeah, my granddad did a lot. If my parents couldn't come to football games or take me to England camps, then Yeah, my grandparents were the first to volunteer and say they'll step in.

There's many times when my granddad's been on the side of football games in those muddy fields, watching me play at Stoke or at Birmingham. And, yeah, just the support that he gave all the time was immense. And we had so many conversations, so many honest conversations, if he thought I performed it awfully or did quite well, he didn't hold back even when I was younger. So it's nice that he was able to see. women's football become a profession

because even when I first started and he probably was thinking there's no profession for you here Hannah but he never judged, he never told me to give up and he just kept pushing me on and him then see that become a job for me and see it become full-time

and the women's games changed massively he saw the first Euros win and he saw the success in the World Cup he probably didn't get to see the Euro's just gone and me achieve one of the dreams that we both set in playing in a major tournament but 100% I know he was there with us and I made sure I carried him every game in the back of my shirt and believe me in those penalties he definitely

helped me with that extra push and trying to save whatever I possibly could and yeah as much as the win was a lovely moment it was also emotional moment knowing that I couldn't share and celebrate with him yeah I'm sure and I'm sure he knew you were destined for greatness you know I'm sure he saw it in you about grief as we talk about it Hannah but at Mead and at a tune have been open as well about their experiences of losing a parent and also the grief that they carry with them. Are they people that you're able to share, for example, the feelings you have about grief or having to perform at the highest level while you're going through something like that? Yeah, there's obviously quite a few players

who've lost loved ones and have been hard moments, being away in tournaments and knowing that they're not there to celebrate or watch with you. But look it's the team really rallied around one another and when I got told about my grandpa and the team found out I don't think they gave me a minute piece they wanted to to always be there for us chat about anything that I needed to chat about speak through things and really rally behind one another because we know the qualities each player had in the squad and yeah Tune and Mido obviously they would have found that incredibly hard this time round but I know that they were there for each other

I know that everyone else in the squad were there for each other and it was just lovely them having their little moment after every single game and celebrating up up in the skies with their parents was a lovely moment and believe me I wanted to join him but I wasn't quite ready to let people know what happened sure it's such a big stage that you're on isn't it

one other aspect another exceptional aspect about you You were never meant to play sport, let alone be one of the most talented goalkeepers in the world. You were born with an eye condition that's called strabismus, so your eye is misaligned one eye turned in a direction that's different from the other. And you were told by doctors to not, that you wouldn't be able to play sport if I've understood that correctly, but your parents decided, of course, to let you play. Tell me a little bit more about the story of your eye.

I mean the easy way of saying it I was born cross-eyed I was born with the squint and I had multiple operations before I was three years old to straighten them and my left eye is not completely straight right now it will drift off

it's obviously just a lazy eye and when I get overly tired people will be able to tell and I got told later in life obviously my parents got told before I did that I have no depth perception so I can't judge distances as well and I think that's probably what

what made doctors say that I wouldn't be able to play professional sports rather than just having a lazy eye, I think. Not being able to judge anything, it probably doesn't make much sense, being a goalkeeper. But, like, somehow we've made it work. Everyone says, how do you adapt? I just think it's because I don't know anything different.

It's normal for me. So as a young kid, you're able to adapt to things a lot easier. So, no, it's helped out. But, yeah, my parents got told by doctors that I wouldn't be able to play professional sports. I wouldn't be able to be a brain surgeon or a pilot. they never told me more so that they just wanted me to find what my enjoyment was in life and go and follow that. And even when they kept telling my parents that I shouldn't be doing it,

they always just kept saying, we're going to let Hannah do whatever makes Hannah happy and let her keep going. And if so be it later in life that she can't do it, then we'll come to that. But right now, if it makes her happy, we're going to keep her going. And, yeah, I've not stopped. It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, I think if my parents told me something different, then who knows what I'd be doing, who knows where I'd be, and I probably wouldn't be sat here right now with everything that we've accomplished as myself personally

and as a team, both at Chelsea and England. But I think it's more just trying to say to everyone, go do what makes you happy rather than being told. I'm curious about, and we've talked about a little bit, but resilience. We asked our listeners what they took from your win the day after you brought it home. And so many of them spoke about resilience.

How do you stay resilient because your career hasn't been without its knockbacks and obviously not without its peaks as it has at the moment as well. As a group of professional sports women, everyone's gone through knockbacks. Everyone's gone through challenges in their career. So for everyone to be in the position that we were in that year as everyone must have had a lot of resilient to be there. There's a lot of challenge you have to face and there's a lot of times when you have to consider if this is what you want to keep doing and if this is really what you're going. you're after and the answer for myself is always yeah it is for me resilience has always been

in the family from from my nan to my mom it's just something that's passed down and and something that they've taught me taught me an awful lot even from my grandpa my grandparents were the first ones to teach me about resilience and just keep going so you don't let people tell you who you can and can't be in what you can and can't do so we'll keep plodding and believe me in that tournament we definitely needed the resilience to keep going in in games and we'll get in the winner in last minute or the last kick of the game. The last kick of the game. Hannah Hampton there, England goalkeeper.

Thanks so much to her. You can watch part of our interview with Hannah over on our Instagram account. I can see lots of you are doing it already at BBC Women's Hour. I did ask for your stories of resilience where you learnt it. Who did you see? What examples? Here's one. I have adaptability from growing up with a learning disabled sibling.

A positive outlook, which I got from my dad. A strong support network with the friendship skills. from my mum. Resilience isn't one thing and it isn't built in. It's taught. It's learnt. It's developed. Now in my mid-50s, I'm learning new ways to bounce back every day. 844-4-844 if you'd like to get in touch and add your story. Next to Pakistan. In June, Manobibi, a mother of five children and Esa Nula Samalani, a father of three children, were accused of having an affair and were shot dead. It came from orders of a tribal leader. according to police. The event caused outrage. Not just because it was another so-called honour killing

in that country, but because the authorities only took action after video of the shootings went viral, that was more than six weeks later. Manobibi's last words were caught on the video. It said, she said, you can shoot me, but nothing more than that. In the video, there were male unlockers, some of them filming the execution on their phones. Eventually, a police investigation was opened and one of the people arrested was Bano Bibi's mother, who was reported to have said, according to Reuters, that the killing had to be done and it was necessary to cleanse our family's honour. Joining me from Pakistan our Azaday Masiri, Pakistan correspondent for BBC News, also Shima Kermani, a women's rights activist who has spent 50 years working with women in rural and marginalised communities

through her work as a classical dancer and also theatre director. You're both very welcome to Women's Hour. As a day, let me start with you. how impactful were these killings? What has the reaction been? Well, as you just laid out, honour killings are by no means new or unfamiliar to people in Pakistan. That doesn't mean they're commonly accepted as a way of life, though. And they are something that people hear sadly about quite often, as Shima will tell you,

what was shocking about this incident is the way it was caught on tape and then shared widely on social media. Many of the people I spoke to, not just activists or journalists, but people I spoke to from that region in the province of Balochistan, were shocked by the graphic nature of the video. There's a woman, you see the woman surrounded by men, walk out solemnly into this arid field and being shot in the back at close range. To say it was a visceral and shocking moment to many people here is an understatement. And the video surfaced weeks after the incident took place. That's, as you said, when the public started hearing about the police searching for the culprits. Now, since then, more than a dozen people have been arrested, including relatives and a tribal leader. Police haven't confirmed whether their search is complete, and we're still waiting to see how the legal system deals with all of these arrests.

Because prosecution, conviction, implementation of the laws against so-called honour killings are a huge challenge in a country where some try to justify them by citing religious reasons in deeply conservative. communities, and often, especially before the 2016 law that passed, often refusing to press charges. So tell me a little bit about the law that changed in 2016, because some are feeling, I suppose, that what is happening is not correlated with what the law is. Well, as with many laws that have passed in in certain provinces to protect women and young girls, implementation is always the biggest challenge. Child marriage is another example of this because even though that law says victims, families can no longer pardon the suspect or the accused, a lot of these cases are underreported and don't gain the attention that this latest

case has received. And while this high-profile case we've discussed involves a couple in the province of Balochistan, it's important to say that this happens both in rural communities but also across the country, not just communities that follow the dictates of tribal elders as in this case. And, you know, they see this as a form of justice in some cases that they are taught from a young age to follow. And therefore, even though there have been these changes, politicians, as well as activists like Shima, who call for change, it's been years since that law has been in place. But that doesn't mean that honour killings have stopped happening. I want to bring in Shima here. You know, you've been working on women's rights issues for over 50 years.

years. And I know we're very familiar with some of the rural areas where some of these crimes can take place. How do you see something like this, this latest case as an illustration of what you're up against? Thank you. Thank you for having me. I think from my understanding and my experience, I think this kind of thing has been taking place since forever. It is actually technology that has now brought it in front of our eyes, you know? I mean, the very fact that somebody took this little video and put it on Internet and it went viral. I think that honor killing, so-called, we want to change that term, in fact, not only that we want to say, you know, in honor killing, inadvertent, we want to actually call it dishonorable murder.

Dishonorable murder. Yes, because it is pre-planned, premeditated. It is cold-blooded murder. I mean, but it is still not treated as that, you know. It is still put in these big terms, obscure terminology of honor. I think as feminists, we need to also redefine what is honor and why is honor only in women's bodies. And why is it only between our legs that they find honor, you know, each tribe?

So, I mean, we as sort of members of the feminist community really want to redefine all these things. And also the whole, I feel that the more notions of heroism, which are very, you know, very militaristic in our parts of the world, where it is related to, you know, the power of the gun, it is related to machoism, it is related to the heroism of a man, all that is actually reinforced constantly by the state. So I think, I would say that the state has to take action because, you know, as activists, we over the last 50 years I've not only been raising this issue, that make this a crime. It cannot, you cannot allow families to come to agreements after this kind of a cold-blooded murder has taken, which has been happening.

If you remember Candle Beloit's murder. She was a social, she was a social media star who was killed by her brother. That's right. I've killed by the brother. And then, forgive it. I mean, then the brother. killed by the brother who has been forgiven by the family. But the state would say, she may end up in cases like that,

that the law has changed, for example, so that perpetrators cannot be forgiven by the victim's families. But I think what you're saying is that it still happens despite the law. I mean, how do you get the law to be applied across this huge country of 240 million people? just to give people an idea of the population of Pakistan and such divergent and different communities, some that are urban, some that are rural.

Yes, so I think that this kind of, I mean, you know, now the whole country knows that the brother has been forgiven, for instance, that the state makes routine action and see to it that their law is implemented. I mean, unless they do that, you know, it is a very, very tough fight for us that we are on the other hand trying to change values and attitudes towards notions of honour, towards notions of men trying to control their women. But when the law has been made, then the state needs to see that it is implemented.

Have you seen change, though, over the decades? Because this is something that you've been on the front line of. And it's so interesting to have somebody who has seen it up close and spoken to women within communities that are involved. Yes and no. I mean, there is a change, but not at the level that we would want to see that. I think your microphone has just gone down a little bit there. We're going to try and get that sorted, Shima. I'm going to jump back over to Azadei for one second. Azadee, Shima bringing up really interesting points there.

And I know you have also seen other high-profile cases of young women who have been the victim of killings like this because of their online social media profiles. Yes, I think the role of social media and online, it's complex. There are two ways to look at it because as Schema is talking about, the fact that this is being more documented online, that people are more vocal on social media means that there is more attention brought to the issue, and that can lead to change. Again, in this instance, the video going viral, the outcry, that has led to a really dedicated search for the culprits.

But in the past year, we've also seen the pitfalls of social media. There have been two high-profile cases involving teenage murders. One was the case of the young girl whose family moved back to Pakistan from the United States. Her father confessed to killing her because of her TikTok account. He didn't approve of her having a TikTok account and being visible in the public space in that way. Another was the case of Sana Yusuf, a very well-known TikTok influencer with a large following here in Pakistan. She was 17 years old. Now, she was killed by her family, she wasn't killed by her family in a so-called honor killing.

She, in fact, at the time, police told us they suspected a man who had repeatedly tried to approach her online, but was rebuffed several times. They suspected him of having murdered her. He allegedly broke into her flat and shot her. Now, what happened online amidst all the condolences, the outcry, was there was a group of people, mostly men, according to digital rights. groups who monitored the reaction, who were victim blaming, using extremely toxic because of her activities online. There were accusations that she dishonored her family with her online presence, and the foundation documented hundreds of users who were glorifying whoever murdered her.

And worse, in a few instances, they recorded threats off the back of this event towards other female influences. And I have to say that they also recorded top. toxic reaction after this latest case, the couple in Balochistan, because there were people who, a small cadre, a group of people who also were victim blaming in that sense. So the online space has become a threatening one, as some activists have said, for women. It's so interesting. I'm so sorry that we've lost the line to Shima because she was just in the middle of telling us how she sees it changing or not changing over the past decades. case, but I think as a day, what she's underlining as well is that we are getting a window into some rural communities that perhaps we wouldn't have previously where some of

these attitudes or in fact actions are taking place. Yes, but I also want to highlight because some of this was politicised and some politicians were saying that this is something that was very specific to the province of Bolochistan, which as you said, has very conservative communities, rural communities, and is also in the midst of a nationalist insurgency. And yet, we see these reported regularly in cities like Raal Pindi, even in Islamabad the capital. It does happen across the country. And also in terms of the fact that there is still some change, some hope, and it's worth highlighting that, even in the case of the 17-year-old TikTok influence I was talking about, Sana'u Yusuf, the Islamabad police chief held a press conference.

and urged the nation, urged people to encourage young women sisters who want to pursue hobbies or careers in social media and said they should be supported. And I spoke to several activists at the time who said something even that may sound small to the others outside of the country, just a vocalization by someone in power saying that this isn't something that should be stigmatized, that that is a sign of progress. Azaday Meshiri, Pakistan correspondent for BBC News.

much. Also to Shima Kermani, I'm so sorry our conversation got cut short. Just shoot. The technology Shima was joining us from Karachi. We will have to speak to her again. Thanks so much to both of you for highlighting this issue. Thanks to your messages coming in. Here's Caroline. She says talking about football. I also have a lazy eye with a squint and very blurred vision. So I rely on my one better eye. Yet it hasn't stopped me playing and being good at sport. For example, in rounders when fielding, driving, proofreading and basically functioning. I think doctors are so wrong to tell people and parents, what patients will and won't be able to do. When the brain has known no different, it adapts. Indeed, when there is a limitation, skills often develop particularly intensely. 844, if you'd like to get in touch, it's another sort of resilience, isn't it? Now, as we were hearing a little earlier in the news bulletin, I also mentioned that the legendary Blue Peter editor, Biddy Baxter, who turned that children's show into a television institution, has sadly died at the age of 92. She was a grammar school girl from Leicester who studied at Durham University

at a time when only 6% of undergraduates were women and she joined the BBC back in 1955. She last appeared on Woman's Hour in 2013 and addressed her formidable reputation. She was said to be respected and feared in equal measure. presenter Jenny Murray asked her, why did you have to be so scary? Well, I never thought I was.

Oh dear. No, it's I mean if you're editing the program you've got to make decisions and sometimes people may not like the decisions but you just have to think of the audience

we all had to think of the audience and I mean I've had really humiliating moments for example we were given some a war and it was taking place at the Palladium and the compairs were Eric and Ernie and it was thrilling, absolutely thrilling

I had to go and pick up this award and I'd gone to, I got a lovely Janice Wainwright long since not working probably dead, evening dress in pale creams and coffee colours and everything and as I approached the platform Eric Waltham said, oh, she's come as a Mars bar. The pioneering TV producer and editor, Biddy Baxter there,

speaking to Jenny Murray, Biddy has died at the age of 92. Thanks for your messages that continue to come in. What a great interview at Hannah Hampton. The thing that comes out of it for me is that hopefully people will now begin to realize that the women's game is the women's game. It is not the men's game. So stop trying to compare it.

enjoy it, which for what it is, which is absolutely and utterly joyful. And that is from David. Thanks, David, 8444, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, my next guest is the writer and director, Celine Song. Her debut film, Past Lives, earned two Oscar nominations and a host of other awards when it was released in 2023. It told a really sweet and moving tale of Nora, who loses touch with her childhood friend when her family moves away from South Korea,

only to be reunited in New York decades later. Well, Selina's back with her second film, called Materialists. It's also partly inspired by her own life experiences, and it explores the subject of love. The film centres around a character of Lucy, played by Dakota Johnson, who's a matchmaker for high net worth individuals, yeah, rich people.

And she sees marriage as a business deal and judges her clients on their value in the marketplace. Now, Celine herself once worked as a matchmaker in the city. And when she joined me in studio, I started by asking her how that experience had inspired her to create this film. I think that I learned more about people in those six months

that I worked as a matchmaker in my 20s and I did in any other part of my life. Because people are very honest with you, I think more honest than you are with your therapist when you're talking to a matchmaker. Because you're asking them to find you and get you love. And were you filing away

all those experiences and characters that you met? Yeah, I think that every day I was like, I know I have to write something about this. I just know I have to. And it actually tried for like 10 years. But I think I really got to crack it after I finished working on my first movie,

Past Lives, in post-production. And then there was about a six-month gap between when I finished Past Lives and when it came out, at Sundance in Utah. And there was a time where I was going a little bit nuts because I knew I was a filmmaker but nobody else in the world knew. So I was like, okay, why don't I just write my next movie?

And then I thought, well, what's the story I've always wanted to tell? And I was thinking about the time I worked as a matchmaker. And I was like, okay, I'm not sure how to figure out how to crack the story. Let's talk about that aspect, though. You knew you were a filmmaker and I love that belief and conviction. Nobody else knew. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, I think that it's that, like, I had just finished my first movie and I knew that it was the love of my life and it was just something that I wanted to do forever.

I just knew in my heart that like, well, I know this is who I am, but, you know, nobody seems to know yet. And then, of course, when Sundance happened and Past Lives started having its beautiful life as my debut film, I think that, of course, then people knew. I just loved Past Lives. Thank you. It stayed with me so long after it. I often think of it. Yeah.

So it's very exciting to speak to you today. But I want to speak about materialists. Yeah. The name. Of course. Well, I feel like there was always going to be the name. And that's the thing that I was also a guiding principle for it. Well, because what I'm interested in talking about is to talk about the way that we are pursuing dating.

I mean, dating is a game that we play to find love. So dating and love are different things. And it's something that, of course, Lucy says. And Lucy being the protagonist, really, I suppose, although you have three big stars in it, Dakota Johnson, you also have Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans. When she's speaking, are some of the thoughts she's putting forward some of the things that you learned when you were a matchmaker?

Yes, of course. I feel like she sort of embodies a lot of the wisdom. And of course, she also embodies the way that we also fail in our dating or we fail in her love. And then, of course, we have to learn to figure out what that is, too. And I think that, like, it's about her journey with anything. And it's called materialists because it is about the way that we commodify and objectify ourselves. There's a word that keeps coming up in the film, valuable.

Yes. It's the way that all of us want to feel valuable in place of this other thing, which is love, right? There's a very important line in the film where a character's, as I'm not merchandise, I'm a person. Oh my God, that's kind of a gut kicker. So to speak, so to speak, that particular line. I want to bring another little part of the film to our listeners. As we mentioned, Lucy sees things matchmaking, for example, as maths or math, as Americans say,

marriage is a business deal, discussing clients value or not, for example, in the marketplace. Let's listen to Lucy, played by Dakota, as I mentioned. meeting the very valuable Harry, played by Pedro Pascal, at the wedding of her client. Love is easy. Is it? I find it to be the most difficult thing in the world. That's because we can't help it. It just walks into our lives sometimes.

Are you kidding on me? Definitely not. But I do think that you would be a great match for a lot of our clients. We need more straight men in New York City You look about six feet tall How much money do you make? Just straight up like that I make 80 grand a year

Before taxes Do you make more or less than that? More I know Finance right That gives us a little snapshot Or a window in I mean some might find it very cynical

That people think about a potential match in that way. Well, I think that it is cynical, and I do you're going to get to see in my movie the way that it's going to all fall apart. The movie believes something about how all the ways that we're talking about love in numbers, the height, weight, income, age, all of those things are going to fall apart and none of it is going to lead to love. The only way to look for love is to accept it as an ancient mystery and a great miracle. Money, definitely, hair was another thing that came up, age, height, some that were on the list. And, you know, it did remind me, I did live in New York.

It's a good few years ago now. But I remember there being the complaint of not enough straight men in New York City. And I also remember lists that at times got longer or shorter, I suppose, depending on how much people wanted to find that match. I think that it's only gotten much, much worse than what the marriage market used to be in, for example, in a book like Pride and Prejudice. That story is also about the marriage market. and a woman who is fighting for, fighting to be treated as a person, right? Liz Bennett is somebody who fights to be treated as a person and not merchandise in that in that book.

And the thing is like, well, it used to be that these marriage markets used to be a communal thing. It used to be something that's happening in a community, in a village or in a town, in the, you know, the garden parties and then the balls. But now I think that what's happened in 2025 is that now it exists on our fun. And you're not just comparing yourself to the other boys and girls in your village. Now you're comparing yourself to the whole world, the global dating market. And the thing is, well, you know, wealth is a great drug of our time. So we're going to see thorough overrepresentation of wealth, very, very wealthy people.

You know, if you go to social media, if you go to TV, film, what you're going to see is a lot of money. So it makes you feel like there's a lot of people with a lot. lot of money. But we also know, in the U.S., the average income of an American adult is $35,000, right? And that's, of course, not counting people who don't even get to be on census in the U.S. There is a kind of a desire for the conversation about wealth where people wanted to seem like, well, only the wealthy can have love or romance. But the truth is that love is free. Love is free from, it's the one thing that's free from capitalism. And it's always been true. It's an ancient reality about love. So given all of that, why is it that we're all so obsessed with economic relief, luxury

goods or luxury living, any of those things, in place of something that is the only solution to human loneliness, which is love? It's interesting. You mentioned Pride and Prejudice because I've just finished reading Sense and Sensibility. So some of the same similar themes I felt. But the film is very modern. It feels like it's set in 2025, even. even though you have some of these age-old dilemmas. Let's listen to another part of your film. You mentioned money being a big theme. Here's Lucy's charming but poor ex.

His name is John, played by Chris Evans. When I see your face, I see wrinkles, grey hair, and children that look like you. Can't help it. But as your friend, I would tell you it's a bad idea to be with a 37-year-old cater waiter

who still has roommates. There's that real tension. between the fantasy and reality. Why does that tension interest you so much? I don't think that it is true that John is reality. Actually, John is as much of a fantasy as Harrius because John is offering you unconditional love. I think all of it is both in equal parts of fantasy and reality

because it's not like just because you're talking about a person who has a $12 million apartment, which is the character played by Pedro Pascal. It's like, well, it feels like, well, he is the first. fantasy like no actually you're going to learn the way that he is reality too you know and also we're not going to give away that twist no but i think that you have to we have to accept that like what i'm really interested in this movie is that i get to make a film in the genre in the romance is a modern romance romantic comedy and i get to invite the audience into the movie theater to talk about love

relationship marriage um dating and i can make a decision to talk about nothing or i can make a decision to talk about what it's like to be a human being right now in 2025. And so I don't think that the film is escapist or fantastic in that way. I think that so much of it is about, well, how does it feel for us? What do we actually care about? And what should we care about? And what do you believe? What I also was intrigued with because it was all different ages,

a different background, people that were in the theatre, who reacted to what bit, you know? in the film, it was really interesting to be sitting beside some people of a different generation, for example, and what tickles them or resonated with them compared to maybe me or somebody else that's sitting to the right of me. The audience is alive right now in 2025. So it deserves a story that is alive for them now. And it was as I watched it very much so. The cast, the incredible cast that we mentioned, Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal, Chris Evans. What did it feel like when you knew they were your triangle? Well, I think that the way that I cast is a little bit like matchmaking.

I usually write without actors in mind. So I would basically write the characters on the page and then I go out into the world in search of their soulmates. And I think that when I met all three of them, because I got to meet them because of past lives, they've seen past lives and they wanted to meet me. And it would just be a casual meeting. we'll have a lunch or a drink or something like that. And I think that in that conversation, I think that it was so obvious that this is a soulmate of the characters.

And then I would be like, I think you should read my script and then see if you fall in love with this character. And then just like any kind of a soulmate, they said, oh, I did fall in love with the character. Let's do it. That's so great. Past Lives was Oscar nominated for Best Picture,

best original screenplay. It also has a love triangle within it. And if anybody hasn't watched it, you need to. Past life is not actually a love triangle. It's actually a two-hander between these two friends who become romantic at times and just friendly at times. I think materialist is actually a love triangle. And she's not just choosing between two guys in a traditional love triangle. Character Lucy, played by Dakota, is actually choosing between what she values in her life, what's important to her, what kind of life she wants.

And what sort of person, I suppose, she is as well. I've read the past lives of semi-autobiographical. You emigrated from Korea to Canada as a child. Yeah, it's auto-fiction. Yeah, I love it. And met your partner at a writing camp, and they say, write what you know. How did that feel, I suppose,

to put parts of your own life on screen? Well, when you're making a movie, you're committed to making that movie for three years. So it also always has to feel like you're the only person who can tell that story and that you should have some personal stakes in it. I love seeing this thing that I made come alive in the audience. I think that that to me is the most exciting thing,

that the audience that is alive now is going to meet my movie from where they are. And how amazing. How amazing. Celine Song, director of materialists and also past lives. Materialists is in the UK and Ireland cinemas from this Wednesday, so 13th of August. And I did want to let you know, if you like content on matchmaking, You could also listen back to an interview I did with matchmaker, Heather Heba Percy

on last Tuesday's edition of Women's Hour. That was part of Listener Week. Thank you so much for all your ideas. We enjoyed them so much. It's one of the weeks of the year that I really love on Women's Hour. So thanks so much for all your contributions. Here's the message from Barbara while listening to Celine.

From an early age, I was told I should find a husband and possibly a rich one. Well, I have survived for 69 years in this world with no such ambitions. 8444.844 if you'd like to get in touch on anything you're hearing on the program, including this. Here's a stat. Only 15% of the construction industry is made up with women. Though the industry as a whole employs around 1.4 million people in Great Britain. That is according to the O&S, the Office for National

Statistics. We know that women don't always have a positive experience in the industry. Here are some stats that my guests will be discussing. 30% having reported second sexual assault at work, 64% saying men were paid more for the same work, the same role. But there is a recruitment crisis in construction. You've probably heard that. There are about 260,000 new workers needed by 2027. Women could be the answer, but only if the industry can evolve and become a safer and fairer place to work.

So say my guests. Well, joining me in the studio to explore these issues and also the opportunities that are there for women, it's Faye Allen, author. of building women. We also have Dr. Carol Massey, who runs a consultancy called Unity for Construction. You both have more than 30 years experience, I believe, in the industry to share with us.

Looking forward to hearing it. And welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. Thank you. Carol, let us begin. I said I have a couple of construction workers in here with me and people might have one image in their head that you would be involved in heavy manual work.

Tell me a little bit more about how people should think of construction workers within the industry. Absolutely, thank you. Yes, the perception always is. It's out on site and it's cold, muddy, boots, etc. And unfortunately, that's the perception that's given at school ages as well. But no, the industry has a mirage of different projects,

roles as well, which means you can work in the office. You can be a QS, you can be... Quantity surveyor? So there's a lot of these eight... EEC roles, which are really important. And AEC? It's architecture, engineering and contracting and civil roles as well. So it specialises.

Those are like roles that you can go to university and study qualification, but also have the experience of working at the same time. So four days may be at a construction company, they sponsor you to do the university course. So those types of roles. But also they are 2% that you mention that are on. the tools as well and I know you're going to cover a bit more about that in the questions you may ask to Fay but they are some really good roles in construction and also on the

tech side for construction which is where I started as well and let me turn to Fay then so you have your book building women yeah about how you first got started in construction yeah what was what was the draw what to get started I blame my dad oh yeah I might not and he's probably listening so he was an estimator started taking me out when I didn't want to finish my A level and I just got hooked on a job that he took me on. And he said, well, look, go and get trained by someone else. So I joined Tri-Construction as they were then. And like Carol said, I trained to be a quantity surveyor

and I did four days work in one day, college, then university. Also worked for a number of other construction companies on site. So seeing the buildings go up, commercially being in control of them as I got further down my career. Did distance learning law degree because I quite like the law side. And, you know, I talk about all the different careers. When I go into schools and colleges, you know, I now work in disputes in the industry. So I've done 20 years on building sites and then moved into the consulting site.

So there's a lot of opportunity there. But I just found when I was talking to women a few years ago at Londonville, they were still having the same sort of obstacles that I'd had earlier in my career. And I just decided it was time it was spoken about so that we could resolve it. So you decided also to write the book and really hone in on some of these issues. Can you explain how the sector works? Because I think this really does affect maybe how women could potentially see where they might fit in. There are Tier 1 contractors and Tier 2 contractors.

Yeah. So the tier 1s are sort of your big contractors that everyone will have heard of. One of my favourites, so I'll just shout out to them because I work for them. There are other Tier 1 contractors available. I've mentioned, I worked at May. So they're the big sort of contractors. Then you've got your slightly, they're still big. We call them Tier 2s, people like Myvan for example.

example. So what people forget is that most of the industry is made up of SMEs, so small and medium enterprises, and they're the ones that do the actual work on site. So I sort of think we forget that the industry is very fragmented. And I think if we can bring everybody together, that will be how we can improve the culture for everyone. And I think that's something that I started to discover the more research I did for the book, because it originally started about making it better for women, what I really realized as I went through the process of the research is actually things aren't great for men either. So culturally, because we're very fragmented, we need to really bring the community of construction together. Because some might say we all know that there can be

very small construction companies, for example, and would they be able to provide, looking at the bottom line, for example, the flexibility that some are calling for women to be able to have a work-life balance. And I do talk about this in the book. I think there are opportunities where we can do things like split shifts, for example. I mentioned Lee Molly brickwork in the book. So he talks about some of the flexible offerings they can do. And he's set up a college specifically to make sure that the bricklayers are trained and that their work ready, as he puts it. So there are things we can do that would actually help the industry. So crane drivers is a good example. They get musco-skeletal sort of disorders because they're sat for so long. To make that

flexible, you could split the shift, which would mean more women could come into that role and stay in that role. So it's really just about thinking differently. Carol, you'd think that women could be the answer to a lot of the problems in the industry. We talk about this situation where they're looking for thousands of people to join. Absolutely. 260,000. And all we're saying is make it equal, make the environment that everyone can play a role and support. You know, construction is all around us. And we need to ensure that, you know, the opportunities are there, the environment's there.

And again, don't want to plug them. There are other construction companies. Weight screws are a fine example. You need to attract the women into the environment. And how do you do that? So it's, as we talk about, social media is a most important thing. That's what our youngsters are living and breathing, your Instagrams, you know, your Facebooks.

As an organisation, do what you say you do by, is. illustrating, you know, on your platforms that you've got individuals, you've got roles for women, and you're creating an environment that not only allows women to come in and be successful, but you're allowing the flexibility of being a mother. If you want to be a mum, if you want to be able to go out and do school runs, things like that. Is it flexibility really at the heart of the issue? There is, it is. It's one of the important factors as well, allowing that flexibility, because first and foremost, in any job, that you go into. The first thing, you know, sometimes you're kind of, well, do you want to

start a family? Well, of course, you know, maybe you don't want to, but if you have the opportunity to know that you can feel free to be able to do that. And what the industry is, and it's getting better, is being mindful that there are these massive targets. The government are investing in the industry. We don't want to get to a point where it's an ageing workforce, people are leaving, and we've got no backfill. You also, in our last, minute or so, Faye, you describe a lot of the problems as being cultural. We're talking about sexism and probably machismo that we have oftentimes attributed to kind of a traditional building site, to be honest. How do you change those? I mean, I talk about this a lot in the

book. I think I talk about allyship and how important it is that not just men but women, anybody who hears something that's inappropriate actually calls it out at the time. And I think we have to look at the fact that our industry, unfortunately, has got very bad statistics for suicide for men as well. We're four times the national average. So men are struggling as well with the culture. And the fact is if you bring more women in, the culture will change and it will become more inclusive for everybody.

And I think that's the piece that's been missing. Here's a message. I've just retired from 47 years working in the construction industry, starting as a building, services engineer and retiring as a project manager. I'm female. I would highly recommend any woman to consider a job. in the construction industry. You're nodding along, Faye, you would recommend it too? I would. And I think my mission really is just to make it so that it's better for everyone.

And Carol? 100% do it. Salary's good as well. That's true, actually. Thanks very much, both to Faye for coming in along with Carol. Thanks to both of you, Fay, Alan, and Dr. Carol Massey. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Shari Vile. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years. It is not them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals and it's often very

organised. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liz, your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism. I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to catch people like me. And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging. Listen now to Scam Secrets on BBC Sounds.