Woman's Hour - Going braless; Em Sheldon and trolling; Continued shielding; Anne Theroux

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

After more than a year of many of us working from home during the pandemic, there's been a lot of talk about the lack of requirement to put on a bra. Just this week actor Gillian Anderson announced that her relationship with bras is over. Joanna Wakefield-Scurr, Professor in Biomechanics at University of Portsmouth talks to Emma about the pros and cons of not wearing a bra. Social media influencers who document their lifestyles receive daily online abuse which increases when they promote products and make money. Instagram influencer Em Sheldon spoke to MPs on the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee yesterday about the trolling she receives which she claimed comes predominantly from adult women. Em joins Emma to discuss what should or could be done. It’s been confirmed that from next Monday 19 July all COVID requirements, including mandatory face masks and social distancing, will be lifted in England. But for more than one million of the most vulnerable people, shielding will continue. How are women across the country planning to cope? And what difference – if any – will so-called Freedom Day bring? Lucy Catchpole is a disability writer and has two young children. Mary Slattery is a disability advocate and artist. Sarah Clarke has two teenage children with disabilities. Why would you want to tell all about the ending of a painful marriage that happened 30 years ago? Emma speaks to Anne Theroux about her marriage to the writer Paul Theroux. She's written The Year of the End A Memoir of Marriage, Truth and Fiction.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. And as some people venture back to the office for the first time in 16 months, you may need to take a mug in, people will be having to get dressed again, properly. And yet, according to a new poll, almost a third of workers want to ditch the formal dress code, preferring smart casual attire. But would you go as far as ditching the bra?

Free the boobs, cut loose from the boulder holders, you know, unleash the beasts, whatever you like to call them, would you do it? According to a YouGov poll, a third of women admit lockdown has been an opportunity to ditch the bra, with a fifth saying they now wear one much less frequently. And the actor Gillian Anderson, she of course of X-Files and The Crown fame, said she's ditching her bra for good.

I cannot think of anything more appealing but impractical as someone who needs the support. But like many women, removing my bra is one of the first things I do when I arrive home, sometimes before I even take off my shoes, with that sound of ah. And of course, it's relatively new. Even wearing them in the whole time of womankind, bras are relatively new. We are going to be talking about the science of them today. Hopefully all of our burning questions will be answered because I'm going to be joined by a professor of biomechanics, no less. But would you or could you ditch the bra?

Have you been outside without one? Tell us where you are with this, 84844. You may not wish that we needed such things, but like me, you may need the upholstery, the engineering. You can tweet me at social media or on Instagram. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us your take, your stories, your views on this via our website. We are waiting. Anne Theroux hits back with her own book. And while you may be celebrating or welcoming greater freedoms from COVID restrictions in the coming days and weeks, depending on where you live, I'll hear from three women who feel completely differently. But first, online trolls. What is the image when I say that phrase to you? What first comes to mind? All too often it will be

of a man, a male keyboard warrior punching out abuse and threats. And while that is often the case, and a phenomenon we have documented extensively here on Women's Hour from all sorts of perspectives, women are also trolls. They behave badly and post abuse. And now Em Sheldon, a 27-year-old online influencer, giving evidence this week to a group of MPs on the Digital Culture, Media and Sport Committee, has specifically called out, as she puts them, grown women with children, with jobs, for posting some of the worst abuse she's received, designed, as she puts it, to ruin people's lives or destroy their businesses. Have you ever made

comments? You now consider in the cold light of day to perhaps be, if I put it like this at best, charitably unkind. Or have you piled in on other women as part of a forum? Why do you do it? Some say that women, when they abuse and offer these sorts of comments, think they're being righteous, that they're holding these individuals to account. There's often a sneering tone to it. Is that you? Is that someone you know? As always, I offer this disclaimer. You can be anonymous, but I would love to hear your voice on this. You can text me on 84844.

Well, while you're having a think, listen to my conversation with Em Sheldon, who I spoke to just before coming on air this morning. And I started by asking her what her job involves. So I would describe my job as something that changes on a day-to-day basis. So it could be sat consulting for brands, global brands, and helping them with their social media strategy or their growth or just how to actually, you know, post on Instagram, what to post, when to post.

It could be actually shooting the content for the brand. That could be behind the scenes for their channels. That could be for my own channel. So that would be a full photo shoot, often with a team. It could be pre-COVID traveling with a tourist board to talk about a certain location and give an honest review of that place. Or it could be just myself recording videos organically for my audience.

And so a lot of that just to summarise really is advertising. Yeah I guess it's the new wave of digital marketing, digital advertising. I don't think there's one definition. No but I think it's good to ask you because you're doing it and for people to hear it from you. How long have you done it? So I started my blog I started out writing a blog because I always wanted to be a magazine editor I'm in 2012 which was years before social media begun and I didn't do this to start a business I did it because I had a passion for writing and I guess I fell into making this into a business because this is what these people online are we are businesses I think people think this is such an easy job they think we just take selfies all day and I wish it was that easy but yeah 2012. Is it successful are you making a good salary am I allowed to ask that? Yeah I think you know it

pays my bills it pays my mortgage it is a full-time job but I think it's important to realize that it's more than just Instagram people think I just go on walks work out and drink matcha but actually you know I just don't want me working because it's boring who wants to see me sending invoices and consulting brands oh I do I do think a little real on Instagram about how to send a very decently designed invoice and all of that could help someone do you enjoy it I really do enjoy it I always say I'm so grateful that this is my job. I do something every single day that I love, which is why when people say to me, oh, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, just quit your job. I'm kind of like, why should I quit my job just because other people can't be nice and respectful? Let's talk about that heat then,

because that's why we are having this conversation. You chose to give evidence this week to MPs who are looking at the role of influencers and what that relationship is like between influencers and brands. And is there enough transparency there? Again, something we can come to. Why did you want to talk to the MPs? So I've always wanted to talk to government about how bad trolling is, not just myself just myself actually I did this for my peers my peers you know they are literally relentlessly trolled we even saw it with the footballers trolling racism it is just horrendous and something needs to be done about it I've spoken to anti bullying charities because this is bullying and we tell our children in school don't bully people but actually if you see someone online you can them, you can abuse them because they're online. So they deserve it.

You know, I get told every day, you deserve this, you put yourself online. But how is that fair? I just don't think anyone, ultimately, in any occupation deserves to be abused. You specifically called out women being some of the worst culprits. And in your case, you talked about middle aged women, grown women, this isn't girls, who are often mothers talking about you and talking about your peers all the time in ways that can only be described, as you say, as bullying, as abusive. Tell me what you think it is about women doing this and what you've observed. Yeah, so my comments have been taken out of context a bit and the word middle age has been thrown around and I didn't mean that in a negative way what I meant is that when people say to me oh just ignore the trolling it's just

school girls I think people have an image in their head of what a troll looks like they either think it's a young girl or they think it's a man sat in a dark room. But what I was trying to say is actually, these are ordinary good people with good lives. You know, they have really good jobs. They're not sat in a dark room. They're grown women with children. These people are embedded in our society with great jobs. And I think that makes it more scary. I think that's really interesting. We do often think it's men and it has been with lots of types of abuse that there have been online. But there is a large body of this that is female. What sort of abuse are you talking about? Can you give us some examples? Yes, I think it's important to say that this isn't just name calling.

You know, it's not someone saying that they think my body's awful. They think my face is awful. You know, it's harassment. It it's abuse it's people saying I shouldn't exist why do influencers exist it's people literally trying to destroy your life you know overnight people saying they're going to get all of my passwords and bring my business down they report people to the advertising standards I know with mum bloggers they will report them to social services these people have a dark vendetta it's so much more than people just saying I don't like her body she's ugly and I think people seem to think that you know I'm complaining because people are mean about me but it's so much deeper than that.

Do you read it? I personally don't read it there are deep dark forums where people write about things just from a legal standpoint obviously it's good to be aware of what's going on I don't read it however over the last 48 hours it has spilled over onto my public channels I've been waking up to hundreds of messages telling me I shouldn't exist and things all for speaking out about this and I think it's important to remember that I went on this committee to make a change. I've never spoken about this in public before. And I didn't quite expect, you know, the press to pick up on this. And I think the fact that the press have picked up on it and the fact that the last 48 hours has been full of abuse is showing why this is just so necessary. You must have read some of it, though, to know that it's happening, as you say, keeping an eye on it.

So I personally have not clicked on these websites where people talk about me but I do have people that work for me who will let me know what has been said and they'll kind of paraphrase it and you've given a flavor of it but specifically around you I did go and have a look and I'm not gonna say what I saw but people can that's the whole point if you google your name it leads to sorts of websites like the gossip forum Tattle Life. And I know you're not keen to name where this is happening. But in terms of that particular website, a lot of people are spoken about on there. And the platform's administrators say the site has a zero tolerance policy for messages containing threatening behaviour, hate speech or harassment.

But the site has been widely criticized for creating a platform which allows users to bully influencers. And it is the website that I have had named to me by people in your position. Yeah, I think the website is an issue because unfortunately, it gives people a sense of community. I don't understand why it's allowed. They say that it's a constructive website, there's no hate, but every single person who reads it is appalled at the hate on there. And I think the saddest thing about it is the people who are on there. They say it's constructive feedback. They say it's constructive criticism. They'll spin everything you say, you know, they're allowed freedom of speech.

But how dare I speak out about this? They're not scrutinizing people. They don't dislike them. that this isn't feedback there is a place for constructive criticism but these people are sadly spending every single day on that they talk about the fact that you know they have work to do they have children and I just feel like I wish they were just not I know a lot of amazing women this isn't an attack on grown women I know but I can hear your nervousness, even just calling this out again, because you don't want to be misquoted. You don't want further abuse, but it is real.

It's happening. And you want to know why. And this is what I said in the inquiry. I said, this isn't, oh, woe me. This isn't, oh, you know, I need all of a sympathy because I've been so hard done by it. It's not, I just don't think

abuse should be tolerated. I think abuse and harassment in any form for any person is unacceptable. But because I am online, I deserve this. And I just don't understand where that comes from. I think people don't like my job. That's okay. But whatever someone's chosen line of work is, no one should be abused. Well, of course, the argument that's often presented to you, as you said earlier, is quit your job, don't do this. The other argument is, of course, to those people, don't look at M Sheldon's account. Don't look at these people's accounts if you don't like what they're doing. You certainly don't need to be spending your time abusing and making threats and making these sorts of comments. There's a very interesting piece in

The Times following on from your discussion of abuse and also what's happened to our footballers from Polly Vernon, the journalist. And I wondered if I could get your view on what she said. Her conclusion is, if men threaten and abuse anonymously, women sneer, smear, discredit, demean, dismiss others as inauthentic. We shame, we denounce our targets in this case influencers as stupid sick or dangerous do you think that's a good distinction between what men typically do who abuse online and what women do it's really interesting because i just think there are you know there's two sides to everything so you do also have these anonymous women who will make 10 accounts and will not stop coming for you but then you do have these women

who yeah they're disgusted by the fact that these men are doing this they think it's horrendous but for some reason they constantly back themselves and say we are just giving constructive criticism we are not doing anything wrong this is our freedom of speech and I am the problem but if they can't see that it's not normal behavior to sit on a website and talk about someone they've never met then I think it says more about them than me there's a kind of righteousness to it you know they're going to let you know that what you're doing isn't right and that perhaps emboldens further and other people get involved yeah absolutely And then they just hype each other up to, yeah, try and ruin someone. It's just not okay behaviour. I don't know how anyone thinks it's okay to spend your day sitting

on a random website talking about a stranger. How has this affected you, this background kind of hum of your job? So I'm very lucky that I have amazing support around me. I've unfortunately been through a lot in my life. I am a survivor of domestic abuse, so I am a tough nut. I'm very lucky that I have amazing support around me. I've unfortunately been through a lot in my life. I am a survivor of domestic abuse, so I am a tough nut. I'm strong. However, it's just annoying knowing that every single thing I do, there will be someone analyzing it. You know, analyzing it negatively. Me going on a walk with my dog.

Me coming home to visit my family. Someone will pick at everything. My boyfriend, my granddad, even calling my dog ugly. Again, I know that's not offensive, whatever, you might think my dog's ugly, but I do think it speaks volumes about a person to be so angry that they call someone's dog ugly. So it does have an effect. You know, you said right at the beginning you like your job. But is this a thing that, if anything, may make you at some point think twice about this line of work if this doesn't change? Because at the end of the day, while one can blame social media platforms, that only goes so far because social media is allowing what you can argue is already there in the human psyche. You know, this is what people are thinking and wanting to write.

I completely agree with you. A lot of people have said to me, what should the government do? What should social media platforms do? But they're not the ones who are trolling. Ultimately, what they are doing is giving a voice to these people. So there must be a way that we can stop giving them that voice. But those people, sadly, do exist within society. So does it affect me? Of course, I think it affects all humans, which is why I don't read it. However, it does then come over into my everyday life. I don't think you should wake up to hundreds of messages every day hearing you're this, you're that, fighting with someone who's trying to break your business.

I just don't think that's healthy for anyone. But I should be able to take it because I asked for it. Some of these women will be listening to Women's Hour today or, you listening back on BBC Sounds if they can't join us live they'll be walking around and there might just be something you've said where they think I've done that what would you like to say to them? I know that they'll be listening because they watch everything I do if it's particular people who are annoyed at me and I'd just like to say I'm not a bad person you know I would never intend to hurt anyone I just want to share experiences with people and you know you wouldn't want your children to have people be mean to them and I just think it's time that we're all just nice to each other I always say jokingly I would like to get these people in

a room and just have a hug and have some pizza and just chat because I think I would disarm them and they would realize that I'm not a threat I'm just a normal person doing something that I love every day and if seeing that makes you annoyed or angry just stop putting yourself through it because hate following someone or hate watching someone it's not positive for you And you get out of the world what you put in. And if you're putting out hate, even though they say it's not hate, you know, it's negative thoughts. How can you be happy? It would be a powerful message to land. And that pizza would certainly be an interesting discussion.

I suppose if you ever do do that, I'll come along and record it. I think it would be an important conversation to hear. But we are trying to facilitate that conversation with you and with our listeners today the one thing I wanted to ask around social media is it's meant to be just that it's meant to be social you know the whole point of it when it began and I remember covering this I used to be a technology reporter is that you would be able to interact with people and I suppose what's happening now is you're going to have to put and you are doing this putting up walls as to what you see around the interaction, because some of it's so unpleasant. Some people, though, will have things that you probably do want

to read, feedback, comments, not necessarily hateful, but not necessarily complimentary. How difficult is it to still actually see comments that are useful and you can then interact when you are also trying to protect yourself? Yeah, this is a thing. And this is why a lot of my friends don't read their private messages on Instagram for this very reason, because there's too much hate in that. I do read my private messages on Instagram. I think it's really important. And my audience say this, that I do engage with them I received a few messages yesterday that actually were constructive criticism two messages basically saying you know I've listened to all of your press coverage I don't like influencers content creators whatever you want to call them for x y and z reason this isn't a personal attack on you but here's my feedback and I went back to them and I said firstly thank you for being nice you know there were fake accounts who had been created to say this to me but they were nice and they put that argument to me and we had a good discussion about

it so I'm always open to that yeah because I mean you don't want to lose that that's sort of the two-way street and I think the other thing is it's kind of the visuals of envy isn't it so I went through your Instagram account this morning just to have a look at your latest work and what you've been putting out there I mean your life your life looks incredible, Em. It just is wonderful looking. Ice creams, pizzas, new kitchens. You know, it's totally aspirational, just like you can argue magazines are. It all looks absolutely brilliant. Do you understand why in this kind of comparison culture when somebody's life, I suppose, isn't going that well? Because as you say, it's not real life. You know that. But people following you don't know that necessarily. And they can be very, very jealous. Yeah, I mean, everyone compares themselves. And I think maybe because I know

that I'm me and that my life isn't perfect. I don't see that, you know, oh, this is a perfect feed. It's aspirational. But then at the same time, I love following aspirational accounts. It makes me want to get fitter. It makes me want to work harder. I don't know. It really inspires me. So there's that side of me that thinks it's good to put out aspirational escapism content. But then at the same time, the people who watch my stories or the people who watch my YouTube will see that I'm usually no makeup, often like crying about something, but you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't at Christmas I put some stories up of me crying about some really serious things and I instantly got you know attacked saying I'm a narcissist I've done this on purpose and how dare I you know

show a picture of me crying it's for attention but actually it was to say to people my life isn't perfect but you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Do you think you're going to do this all of your life? I don't know. The dream, obviously, is that people grow up with me. And when I have a family and buy a forever home, people follow along. But will I put my family on social media? Absolutely not. My children would not be being put on. That's a line in the sand. That's an interesting one. A lot of people, of course, do the exact opposite.

Maybe it is something you'll do for your life. And of course, the platforms will change as we get older and as you get older. Just a final thought about holding to account. That's what I do as a journalist a lot of the time in my job, you know, often your line of work what you will, are not as accountable as they should be. We've already seen last month the advertising watchdog is now naming and shaming those who haven't said it's an ad or haven't been completely honest about what they're posting. We also know that Instagram, for instance, has been called out by the NHS for allowing the promotion of dangerous diet drugs to girls as young as 12. And influencers have promoted claims that are misleading and are extremely worrying. Who should be holding you to account, if not these forums and some of these self-appointed women? I think the ASA is reactive and not proactive in policing. So I do think they should be proactive in policing, because what you've just said is completely unacceptable. And it does show that there are very bad eggs in the industry. And it's no wonder people hate us, you know, because this is the news

that they're faced with. But unfortunately, because they're not proactive, it does leave people wide open to harassment. You know, you're put on a list by the ASA, even if it's upheld or not, even if you haven't broken any rules we or my friends we want to disclose all we want is an even playing field in comparison to other people who make money you know sports stars traditional celebrities they're all given the same pr gifts yet the rules for us are strict they should be strict i completely agree with that and i write add everything on everywhere but unfortunately some people do ruin it for us. Very powerful from M Sheldon. Messages coming in about people who have been on the receiving end of this. Anna says after winning the Belmont Design Prize,

Leila got rape threats for designing two chairs which were her response to a challenge to microaggressions on the underground. She went around the world in tabloids for her design, thought you might be interested in that one. So yes, when success is happening. Another one here saying people who troll have not been shown or educated about how to safely express unpleasant emotions, jealousy, anger, frustration. They often don't have the language to name these emotions. You know, trolling especially is anonymous

and it enables bad behaviour with no negative outcome. Anthea says my daughter runs her own business and this was almost destroyed quite recently by a troll posting outright lies about her products and customer service on Instagram. There's such a difference between constructive feedback and destructive comment and we can only think this was generated by outright jealousy. So unkind and unnecessary as a mother I was devastated to have my 40 plus daughter in tears of despair and sorrow over this matter. I notice no one who has done this is getting in touch. And I genuinely offer you an open line to come and discuss something you may now be thinking about in a very different light.

Why did you say it? What did you say? This is your microphone to 84844. If you want to get in touch, you can text me or email through our website. It can be entirely anonymous. But you are also getting in touch about a subject close to my heart. Bras. Literally. After more than a year of working from home during the pandemic, more women want to ditch them, set the boobs free.

According to a YouGov poll, it is now at a third of women admitting lockdown that has been that opportunity to ditch the bra, with a fifth saying they now wear one much less frequently. Here's the actor Gillian Anderson explaining why she will be not she will not be wearing a bra ever again. I don't wear a bra anymore. I can't wear a bra. I can't. No, I can't. There's no I'm sorry, but I don't care if I reach my belly button, my breasts reach my belly button, I'm not wearing a bra anymore. It's just too f***ing uncomfortable. Gillian Anderson speaking freely on her Instagram account, speaking of social media. Well, I did promise you a professor of biomechanics.

I will come to some of your amazing messages. I especially love Liz, who takes her bra off in the car. Props to you. But let's speak now to Professor Joanna Wakefield-Skerr from the University of Portsmouth. Good morning. Good morning. I've just got this image of women whipping bras off across the country and perhaps feeling all the freer for it, but they don't necessarily want to go outside without them. Tell us the science behind it. Do we need bras? So the challenge is that we have no muscles within the breast. So the breast is a lump of tissue,

essentially, and it sits above the muscles on the chest wall, and it's only supported by two weak structures. And those are the skin and something called the Cooper's ligaments. So the Cooper's ligaments are internal structures, but really it's probably the skin and something called the Cooper's ligaments. So the Cooper's ligaments are internal structures, but really it's probably the skin that's providing most support to the breast. And the problem with the skin is it can be stretched. So if we stretch the skin too much, we can actually start to cause damage. We can actually start to change the structure of the skin so that it doesn't return to its original position. And so Gillian was just describing there that she's not worried if her breasts go down to her belly button. And actually, there's no disease linked to a sagging of the breast or a stretching

of the skin of the breast. But it is a psychological consideration for some women. They don't want their breasts to sag. So wearing appropriate support can help reduce the risk of stretching the skin. It can help reduce the risk of causing damage to those supporting structures of the breast. And I have to say, there's a lot of people getting in touch to say, for instance, Wendy's also saying along these lines, she has to wear them. She's top heavy. She needs the support for her back yeah we've certainly seen that from many women who who wouldn't dream of of ditching their bras

but actually during lockdown we did a big survey with over 4 000 women and we saw similar statistics that you just reported that women are making a shift from more structured padded push-up bras to more comfortable more flexible bras and they're also suggesting that when restrictions ease and they return to some sort of more normal life activities that they'll they'll still be wearing those those more comfortable soft cup bras and that perhaps they won't be returning to those wired, padded, push-up bras. And women are suggesting that that is for comfort, one reason, but also they're suggesting now that they're less worried about their appearance. They're less concerned about the shape of their breasts and what their breasts look like.

So it's quite empowering. So still need something, but not necessarily the same scaffolding, if I could put it like that. Well, I think it really varies from woman to woman. So when somebody's skin will start to stretch is very individual. It's affected by your age, your lifestyle, it's affected by even things like some damage. And so it's very individual in terms of how much natural support you have in the breast and therefore how much support you need from a bra so and it's not always breast size related either so for some women with smaller breasts they could actually have less natural support in their breasts and therefore they need more external support

so it's a it's a sort of very individual thing i mean i've mentioned about the potential to cause damage to the the tissue of the breast but there's also breast pain so half the female population in the uk experience breast pain and we know that the bra that a well-fitting supportive bra is an effective remedy for women that are experiencing clinical breast pain so a bra not only helps to protect the breast protect the breast tissue from damage but it can also help to reduce the symptoms of clinical breast pain so it really varies because you might have some women as Jillian said who who aren't bothered about stretching of the tissue and those women might not experience breast pain and so you know they

might then choose not to wear a bra or to wear a more flexible um relaxed bra should we say yes but bralettes as people are calling them no wire no phone this is what Emma says she says I've embraced a more flat chested look actually actually, in favour of comfort. Reject the scaffolding if you can. Yvonne's saying, though, having had a mastectomy and a reconstruction, I like wearing my bra. It makes me feel safe. So there's, of course, that side of things, which we're getting quite a few messages about. But also in terms of sport, you know, there is just that need, isn't there, for you to be supported in certain scenarios? There really is, yes. So whilst our lifestyles might have changed on a daily basis and we might be more static, more sedentary working from home, and therefore we might choose to wear a softer bra that doesn't provide as much uplift and as much support but what we must remember is if we're then undertaking physical activity or we're moving around a lot more then we've got the potential to stretch the supporting structures of the breast more so particularly in sporting scenarios it's

really important that we are still choosing a well-fitting supportive supportive bra. I mean, a braless Olympics would be something, wouldn't it? Wow. I can't imagine the viewing figures for that. As a professor of biomechanics, are you a fan of the scaffolding or are you allowing yourself to go free? Am I allowed to ask you that? So I tend to sort of change between the two options. So if I am more active, then I'm going for support. I need that support. I'm a breast pain sufferer. So I've suffered from breast pain for practically half my life now. And so wearing a well-fitting

supportive bra helps to reduce those symptoms of breast pain. But I've got to be honest, when I'm at home, if I know I'm not going to be active, then I might opt for something that is perhaps a little less structured. Well, we are getting so many messages about this, as you can imagine. And actually many women getting in touch with that moment of just taking off. I remember wearing an underwire bra for the first time and complaining to my friend, you know, walking up and down the steps at school. Is this it? Is this what I have to deal with for the rest of my life? The injustice? And yes, of course, the gratitude when, I don't know,

going off to try and play netball or something. Fascinating to talk to you, Professor Joanna Wakefield-Skerther, with the answers of the science of bras. So funny, I literally just took delivery of four new soft non-wired bras, says Laura. I couldn't agree more. I care less about the look and shape. They're so much more comfortable for me. Breast pain aside,

I'd encourage people to try a soft bra. It is liberating. Messages coming in about how there was a good episode. I've not actually heard this on Radio 4 of our More or Less programme, analysing the often claimed statistic that 80% of women wear a bra of the wrong size.

I'll definitely check that out. And Claire says, I will not be ditching my bras on this point. Having taken the opportunity to get measured, I went from a 36B to a 34E. The lady who measured me was excellent at recommending brands and styles that would suit my shape

and everything's been more comfortable since. Incidentally, along a row of fitting rooms, I love those fitting rooms, I could hear most other women were also wearing the wrong size and how much better they felt after a fitting. All life is in a fitting room of bras, I love those fitting rooms. I could hear most other women were also wearing the wrong size and how much better they felt after a fitting. All life is in a fitting room of bras,

I have to tell you. And the only time I've hated wearing bras was when I had shingles in the same area where the bra band sits. Claire, thank you for that. And many more coming in about you taking this

bit of scaffolding off at certain times in your life and how much better you felt. Well, your amazing messages and certainly since I've been hosting this program i feel this very strongly really make the program come to life and we would love to hear even more from you and you can actually shape what we're going to talk about what i'm going to speak about what i'm going to focus on on the program with our listener week women's our listener week coming up at the end of august and i'm looking for ideas the whole team wants to know your thoughts on stories, interviews you'd like us to conduct.

Please get in touch. Of course, we want some fun and uplifting stuff as well. Uplifting being the theme here with bras, of course. Email your ideas in via the Women's Hour website or get in touch with us on social media. What do you want to hear? What do you want to hear? Who do you want me to interview? Who do you want us to question? At BBC Women's Hour on social media. What do you want to hear? What do you want to hear? Who do you want me to interview? Who do you want us to question? At BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, we do know from Monday

in England, all COVID requirements, including mandatory face masks and social distancing, will be lifted. Although a row is brewing between businesses and government today, as masks are expected to be worn in shops and at work and table service should remain. That was in guidance that was issued from ministers yesterday, which was stronger than expected. And of course, in Scotland and Wales, certain restrictions will continue a while longer. But putting aside the differences and who will be expected to do what, we are left with a loosening of restrictions. And for more than a million of the most vulnerable people across the country, it's likely that shielding will continue regardless. I'm now joined by Lucy Catchpole, a disability writer who has two

young children, and Mary Slattery, a disability advocate and artist. And in a moment, I'll talk to a parent of disabled children, Sarah Clark. But first, to come to you, Lucy, tell us a bit about how the last months have been, the last 15 or so months have been for you and what restrictions you live with on a day-to-day basis hi um well i mostly live in bed all the time um but we had to take we were homeschooling for 14 months i think because my husband and i are both disabled we have more children than working legs between us, which is interesting, even without a pandemic. So it didn't feel safe to continue sending our children to school when we were at so much greater risk of catching it.

So we managed, but yeah, it's not been easy. And how would you describe your feelings, your concerns perhaps about coming out of restrictions? Are you going to be able to embrace any of that? No, we're looking down further. I've been very much seeing it as a deadline point at which my children will be able to have fewer play dates and take fewer risks. Because, you know, masks are no longer going to be worn far, far less, I would have thought. And we've actually had to take our children out of school early this week because the numbers in our city are so high. And, you know, I understand that for a lot of people, COVID feels like a sort of reasonable risk to take, but in our position, it doesn't.

So you've had to do the opposite as everybody or not everybody, but the majority are being told to move in one direction. Yeah, we're absolutely moving in the other in the other direction. It's really disappointing for my daughter. She was very much looking forward to the last week at school, you know. But yes. How do you feel about that? Oh, it's very difficult, isn't it? I don't understand why the decisions that have been made are being made. Yeah, I understand that everyone wants to get back to normal. I would love it if we could get back to normal.

But from where I am, the pandemic isn't over and pretending that it is doesn't make it so. Let me bring in Mary at this point. Mary, welcome to the programme. Tell us about, first of all, your restrictions and your life. So, yeah, I'm not going out. I'm not mixing with anyone without being on my doorstep, having them sitting out on the pavement with a N95 mask.

And, yeah, I also live in the middle of a city and I have a tiny garden, so I can't even really safely sit in my tiny garden without being very close to all my neighbours on every side so it's a really limited existence. I've been disabled for about 20 years so my existence was already somewhat confined to my house uh socializing with people when I was well enough to um at home um has always been really really important for my mental health and the loss of that and um the loss of uh well being able to have my family come and stay when I'm really unwell

and um I also have a social services care package to help me and my PA works in a care home as well as helping me so I think I'm gonna have to stop having help with meals and cleaning and shopping and things because I can't see a way that it can be safe from now on. So that that had come back had, once we had come out of lockdown a bit and now it has to go, or have you been without that the whole time? No, I have been with it the whole time because we were able to keep really good safety protections in place. But now my PA will be going to a workplace where there might be people coming into work there who have active cases of COVID in their home and my disability began with a virus an ear infection

when I was young that I've never recovered from and has led to developing all kinds of disabilities that had nothing to do with the original virus so for me the risk is very clear and I know that the clinical leads the charities that represent some of my illnesses have all said people with your kinds of illnesses have very poor outcomes from COVID you probably won't die but you will be really much more disabled and your quality of life will dramatically decrease and I'm not prepared to take that risk I already live with a very um difficult to manage quality of life most days how many times have you been out this year in the last 15 months once to the dentist once and how are you coping?

I'm coping because I have a really strong community of people in the same situation and a kind GP. Being part of a disabled community of people who are living in a similar way is really important. We can really validate each other, we can support each other and we can help each other problem solve where the government and the healthcare authority aren't able to do that. We are sort of filling the gaps and helping each other survive. My goodness, I'm still just trying to get my head around going out only once. Well, I mean, that's not unusual for very ill people.

It's not an often told story. No, but because of also adding to the detail that you kindly shared about how important it had been before the pandemic for people to come round and break up life, you know, break up the day socialize in that way I'm just I'm just trying to imagine that together uh compounding and and how you may be feeling I mean how are you feeling ahead of the so-called um restrictions coming up the so-called freedom uh yeah well I mean I think that a lot of um it was very noticeable I'm in a lot of group chats with um lots of other people living very similarly to me.

And we went from chatting about our gardens and our hobbies and our wellbeing, and then Sajid Javid made that announcement. And then everybody was in crisis the next day. And then we've been crawling out of crisis since then and figuring out, okay, how are we going to survive this? What is our life going to look like now? How are we going to get the support and care we need? Yeah, and we're losing all of the remote access to things

like being able to see our consultants via telehealth and, you know, everybody offering everything online. They no longer feel a financial incentive to include us. And a lot of people, I think, psychologically really want to feel that they are getting back to normal. And so we have to be sort of pushed away and hidden for people to feel more comfortable with that. Well, that's why we wanted to talk to you today,

so we could hear your voice. Let me bring in now Sarah Clark, as I say, a parent of disabled children. I know you have two teenage children with disabilities. Good morning, Sarah. Hello. Thank you for joining us today. Tell us about how it has been over the last 15 months. It's been a roller coaster. Initially initially when we went into the complete first lockdown um it was actually a breath of fresh air for us both my children prefer to not be with people and my daughter has severe contamination OCD so being locked in the house was probably her ideal situation to be in um but as things eased we have hit absolutely

we've spiraled out of control absolutely the toughest times um and then back into lockdown again and um things were improved again in lockdown And then as restrictions were eased, again, you know, it's been a very challenging time. And again, we're facing more easing of restrictions and Freedom Day, as they're calling it. And that brings with it a huge amount of anxiety for both my children and an impact on the way we live. How will it impact and how are you feeling ahead of Monday? We've consciously decided as a family that we don't

really want to put ourselves in a situation that would put any of us at risk of feeling uncomfortable or anxious. My son doesn't want to be going on day trips or enjoying things that he would normally experience in the summer holidays if he has to wear a mask. I feel quite strongly that it's not the time to take his mask off. Locally, our infection rates are rising. I have both my vaccines. My children haven't had theirs at all. And there's obviously the risk of spreading it to more vulnerable people. So we have decided that that's how we want to proceed. And on top of that, my daughter has OCD, which is a debilitating mental illness. And we want to respect how things are for her. And for her peace peace of mind she needs us to be safe and she

doesn't feel that going out without a mask right now is going to do that for her so we would just limit what we do it'll be very limited trips if any at all and most of the things that I do, I leave my children and go out to the shops for an hour on my own, you know, so that they're feeling safer. We're still swimming because they have physical disabilities, so they need to have the exercise. But, you know, there's great things in places to safeguard, I think. And we're following all the restrictions and they're respectful of how we feel about wanting to continue to wear our masks in public places, etc. Is there a message you would like to say to people who are, you know, looking forward to those restrictions lifting on Monday if they live in England? Of course, we've talked about restrictions in Scotland and Wales and other different differentials coming. But is there something shifting on Monday if they live in England of course we've talked about restrictions in in

Scotland and Wales and other different differentials coming but do you is there something you'd like to say to them to perhaps bear in mind while others are going through what you're going through? I guess it's the same for anybody with any disabilities and I probably think more so with invisible disabilities that you can't see. Be kind and thoughtful and most of all, be respectful of people's decisions to wear a mask or not to wear a mask. I respect people if they make that choice. You know, allow us to have the space that we want to have and respect how challenging it is every single day to get up, get out and conquer my daughter's crippling anxiety and debilitating issues every day just to function in a normal way. People don't know what's going on so I think the only thing that we can do is be kind and thoughtful about other people's decisions.

How are you, Sarah? I've got to ask you that. How are you doing? I'm OK. I'm OK, actually. I'm really good at just rolling with the punches. I know. Good for you, though. I mean, I just wanted to ask someone who's, you know, as a carer in this. It's been incredibly difficult, but they're my children and their needs come first. And I have quiet time for myself where I go to bed and, you know, mull over the day. It's not been an easy time. And a lot of the support that is in place has been lost um you know through no fault of the providers a lot of them are really frustrated with not being able to support my young people um so it has been all me we've lost um a holiday where we visit our family because we don't live locally to them um it's been a really difficult time. I actually am a

lone parent and I have done the entire time on my own, although I must say my ex-husband has, bless him, bought us shopping on odd occasions just to keep us going. But it has been really challenging and I have to say I'm not really looking forward to this next bit with, you know, I keep calling it Freedom Day, which sticks in my throat. Well, no, let's say so-called Freedom Day. I think that's the best way. A lot of people also do not agree with that, even if they're not in your shoes. Well, Sarah, thank you very much for talking to us today. It's very important and sobering to hear your voice and your experience, Sarah Clark there. Mary, thank you to you, Mary Slattery and Lucy Catchpole, big thanks to you as well. And I'm sure some of you will be able to relate to this and if not, certainly learn from it as well.

So it's very important to hear those voices ahead of Monday and the beginning of those loosening of restrictions, certainly in England. More to come, I'm sure, on that story. I just wanted to read this fascinating message that's come in, and I really appreciate whoever has sent this. It is anonymous. We were talking about trolling and women as trolls and women abusing. It's not from someone who's done it, but it's from someone who likes to read it. Just listen to this before I go to my next guest.

I'd like to be anonymous, but regarding trolling, I I don't online troll but I get totally addicted to reading negative bullying gossip sites and I see them tear people apart for the smallest things I feel bad for reading them but I find it really soothing I can't explain this and it probably sounds really strange but I can compare it to self-harm which makes me wonder if it's the same thing for people trolling I think if you're a detail-orientated person and depressed, it feels like you're itching a scratch. And I'm not saying that this is right or good at all. I think it's obviously incredibly unhealthy.

But I sometimes think it's hard for healthy people to understand self-harm, which might manifest itself in these strange sorts of behaviours. It's a weird one. Fascinating insight. Thank you very, very much for that. If you want to share anything else before we go and I'll be here, as you know, till 11, 84844 is the number you need. But another question for you.

Would you want to share the painful memories of your marriage ending, especially if it happened more than 30 years ago and you were now happily remarried? Well, that's exactly what Anne Theroux has done. Her marriage to the award-winning American novelist and travel writer Paul Theroux ended in 1990. They were together for 22 years, had two sons, the writer Marcel

and documentary maker Louis Theroux. And back then she was working as a journalist, but later went on to become a relationships counsellor. Her book just out is called The Year of the End, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction. Good morning, Anne. Good morning. Why now? Well, I'm 78 coming up to 79. If it doesn't come out now, I'm not going to see it published. I

wouldn't have seen it published. So it's really now or never. I actually wrote the memoir, most of it anyway, first draft back in the 90s, fairly a few years after the events. And it's based on a diary actually kept in 1990 during the breakup of the marriage, the end of the marriage. And I gave it to my sons to read and to Paul, my ex-husband, and they were both complimentary, were all complimentary about it. But I decided at that time that it wasn't right to publish it, that I'm quite a private person. My sons were just starting out on their careers. It seemed best to put it aside, put it in a drawer and leave it. And that's where it's been for quite a long time. And I'd almost forgotten about it and got on with a very good life with a second marriage, two later careers and becoming a grandmother.

All kinds of good things have happened. But as I say, I was going through my various things just before lockdown, and I found this manuscript and I decided now is the time to share these experiences with other people. Is it because you were also sick and tired of having men, namely your ex-husband, having defined your narrative publicly because he did write about you. He did write about me and that is one of the reasons why I decided that it was okay to put my version out there and indeed a good thing because I didn't necessarily mind being written about. I mean, if you hang out with writers, you do get written about. And some of the things that Paul wrote about our shared life,

it was very pleasant. I liked being part of that. But there were other times, and particularly when we went through difficult periods, when what he wrote hurt me. There's a book called My Secret History. Very good book, actually. But it came

out shortly before we broke up. And it was painful because it portrayed our marriage, me, and the character based on me was, I felt, unpleasant. Certainly, it diminished me. And it made people comment. People were saying, oh, oh, you must feel rather, you must, how do you feel about your husband's book? You must feel terrible. And I didn't like that sort of comment. It was quite hard to deal with. I'll bet. I mean, he has said of this, of your book, Paul Theroux, I've written a great deal, mainly fiction about marriage and divorce, sometimes touching on my own marriage and divorce. So obviously I'm in no position to object to Anne's book

or her version of events, even though my memories differ. But there is a fantastic quote in your book from an interview he gave after the marriage was over saying, writers choose their wives. They need a kind of specific kind of woman, protective, self-sacrificing types. What they want is a secretary. And you say that you wrote to him in a brilliant

sounding note that if you had been given the job description in advance, you wouldn't have applied. Yes, well, I thought it was, it made me smile, that description. And actually, it's not entirely true of what he expected of me. One thing I don't want to do, didn't intend to do by publishing the book was to rubbish Paul or his work. I'm still fond of him. I am a huge admirer of his writing. But I do think the role of writer's wife or writer's husband or writer's partner, the partner of a writer, probably is quite difficult. Not always, but often. Yes, I mean, because it was a very happy marriage in many parts. But I suppose there'll be other people listening to this thinking, even if, you know, you talk about your

age and wanting to get this out, why? You know, just why do you want to? There's so much in there. You talk about your own pain. You talk about, about you know smoking dope to kind of block out the pain so much so you hallucinate at one point you talk about infidelities why why get that out there well why not um and i agree it was quite a hard it was quite a hard decision and i along the road i i well, do I really want to do this? But I thought, if I'm going to do this, I've got to be honest about it. Paul has a reputation for being a ladies' man, or did have. I mean, we've both grown older and wiser now. I wanted to be fair and say, well, OK't a hundred percent faithful either um and the the smoking dope I mean that wasn't a huge ever a huge part of my life it's something I resorted to in a very

difficult year and I suppose what I was trying to do one of the things I was trying to do was to describe a very painful year but one in which there are glimpses of hope. And the rest of my life, not thinking about whether my marriage is going to end or not, was actually quite interesting and entertaining, exciting. I met all kinds of interesting people. 1990 was an amazing year with the end of communism, the downfall of Margaret Thatcher. It was a very interesting time. And I think one way of getting through a painful period is to look out at the world and be out there doing things.

Well, I think it's also a good point just to ask you, because we have been talking about lockdown as a counsellor and what you've learned from that, but also going back over your own marriage breakdown. Is there anything you'd say to people who are struggling at the moment, they've perhaps spent more time than ever before with their other half? I would say talk, try to talk to each other and think about talking with a counsellor or therapist, because I think that is the main function of counselling or therapy,

whatever you want to call it. It's not finding one solution that fits everybody. It's communication, being honest with each other and finding a way forward that suits you both. And there are different ways forward for different couples. And I'm glad you mentioned that there were happy times in the marriage because that's the other thing. I think a marriage can end. That doesn't mean you should say it's a failure. And I want to remember the happy times as well as the sad ones.

Yes. Well, I think that is very important. And it's a very happy picture on the front of it, even though it's called The Year of the End. There's a nice picture of you on the beach with your two boys looking exactly like that perfect family. But you can have both, as you say, that unhappiness and happiness when looking back. Lovely to talk to you. Thank you for coming on and sharing some of those stories in and around the book. And through The Year of the End, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction. And so many of you, I have to say, have been getting in touch about the end of the end, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction. And so many of you, I have to say, have been getting in touch

about the end of the bra. But a couple of, of course, many in fact saying you just couldn't imagine life without it. I'm too top heavy, says Myra, to let them loose in sight of others. True, without it is more comfortable. But if you have much less,

so much the better. But others saying if you have much less, you still need it. Another debate about our undergarments, I seem to have started. Thank you so much for your company today. I'm actually off now for two weeks, but you'll be in safe hands. Have a good couple of weeks and we'll be back with you on Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney. My attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person.

I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail. And there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted. This is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story

and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.