Woman's Hour - Goop Lab and the psychology of wellness; Tolson judgement; French #MeToo; Emma Jane Unsworth

Episode Date: January 28, 2020

Last Friday, Gwyneth Paltrow launched her new TV series ‘Goop Lab’ on Netflix. It explores everything from reducing your biological age to having the best female orgasms and healing yourself with energy. But where’s the line between fact and fiction when it comes to wellness? What draws people in to trying the vast and bizarre range of creams and contraptions on offer? And what is it about our psychology that means it rarely matters whether the claims are backed up by science? Jane is joined by cognitive neuroscientist Prof Tali Sharot, consultant dermatologist Dr Anjali Mahto and self-confessed beauty product obsessive, Ree.In France there’s a debate going on about very young people having sexual relationships with older, more powerful men: something that used to be deemed acceptable in some intellectual circles. It’s because a woman called Vanessa Springora – a leading French publisher – makes allegations in a book which came out this month, that she was groomed when she was 14 by a much admired author who was 50. Anne-Elisabeth Moutet a French journalist, explains what’s happened, why it’s significant and how it's not acceptable anymore.Last week a written judgement was published in the family division of the High Court. Ms Justice Russell ruled in favour of a woman seeking a fresh hearing in the family courts. Her child custody case had originally been handled by a senior judge, Judge Tolson. In the course of his fact finding he ruled that the woman had not been raped by her former partner because she had “taken no physical steps” to stop him. The appeal judgement criticised him for his outdated ideas of what constitutes consent. It also recommended that family court judges who regularly deal with allegations of sexual assault and domestic violence should be required to undergo training to the same level as judges trying these charges in criminal courts. Jane discusses the significance of this judgement and what needs to happen next with Jenny Beck, Director of Beck Fitzgerald solicitors, a specialist family law firm and Louise Tickle, a journalist who specialises in social affairs and family law Jane talks to the award winning novelist and screen writer Emma Jane Unsworth about her new novel 'Adults' – about friendship, family, love and what it means to be an adult.Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna Lacey Guest - Tali Sharot Guest - Anjali Mahto Guest - Anne-Marie Lodge Guest - Jenny Beck Guest - Louise Tickle Guest - Emma Jane Unsworth Guest - Anne-Elizabeth Moutet

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Today we'll discuss the judge in the family court who doesn't really know what consent means. He was told he had outdated ideas about consent. We'll discuss that man on the programme today. Emma-Jane Unsworth's new novel Adults is out. We'll talk to Emma-Jane on the programme.

Have you been seduced by Gwyneth Paltrow's World of Goop? How about a cold water plunge right now? Or maybe a jade egg sunny side up or somewhere else. You never know. We'll start with that today. And we'll also discuss the fact that France is wrestling with its own Me Too literary scandal. That's a little bit later in the programme. Now, you may well be aware

that last Friday, Gwyneth Paltrow launched her TV series Goop Lab on Netflix. Now, this series explores everything from apparently being able to reduce your biological age to having the best orgasms and healing yourself with energy. Why are so many of us so susceptible to this stuff, to wellness, to cosmetic procedures, to the latest moisturiser, to contouring, to doing lamination with your brows? Apparently that's new in and quite big. Who do we believe and why do we want to believe it? The cognitive neuroscientist Professor Tali Sharrett is here. Welcome to the programme. Also with us, consultant dermatologist Dr Anjali Mato,

author of the Skincare Bible. Welcome to the programme too. And self-confessed beauty product obsessive Anne-Marie Lodge. Anne-Marie, good morning. Hi. Now on Instagram you are re of really re. That's it. Tell us a bit about yourself and about your interest in this world.

So I was always obsessed with beauty. So when I worked as a recruitment consultant, I was the person that people would come to and say, what mascara shall I get? And I'd be like, get that and then get three backups in case they discontinue it type thing. So it was like a massive obsession. I always bought backups of everything.

But because I literally was moving on so quickly into new products, I basically was stockpiling things that I'd already given up. It was a fast turnover. and this started at what age so I was buying anti-aging products when I was 20 what yeah I don't know it just it just happened naturally without really I don't it doesn't happen naturally does it I mean you obviously you were influenced by somebody or something I was influenced by Sephora in the US. Who is? It's a massive, massive brand, massive shop, basically. We couldn't get it in the UK, so I wanted everything that could come from there, basically. We still don't get it.

It's like, you know, I wanted everything I couldn't have. So I would like, if travelling, I'd always go shopping abroad and buy products that we couldn't have in the UK. And that's how my obsession kind of started started that's products what about treatments so yeah I mean I'm quite a DIYer so I like to do my a lot of treatments at home but I do and I've tried some crazy ones before so I mean I'm I just want to improve my skin and feel good about it and get some fun I mean for me beauty industry is really fun so it's not overly serious well it's not overly serious until you get to how much money it makes and then it becomes extremely serious and then also wellness um these cosmetic surgery we were surgery procedures we were talking last week about the fact that

92 percent of cosmetic surgery procedures in this country are carried out on women and girls something is happening and frankly it's happening to us isn't it oh absolutely and girls. Something is happening. And frankly, it's happening to us, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. And the thing is, the beauty industry is huge, is a serious, powerful machine, which is something that I love about it, because a lot of people would approach what I do in life and my interest as being fluff. And it's not I mean, it employs millions of people and creates a lot of money for economies. All right. Well, let's see. I mean, you're absolutely right, of course. It keeps people in work and that's hugely important. Our cognitive neuroscientist, Tali, what do you think of what

Anne-Marie has just said there? Well, I think that she said a few things that were key. She said that it makes her feel better and it's fun. And part of the reason that people would buy a certain moisturizer is because it makes them feel better. And I mean, there is a price on feeling, there is a price on beliefs, beliefs on their own have utility. And then there's a whole issue of placebo, right? The placebo effect is maybe the most robust effects in medicine. And it turns out that if a certain pill or a certain, you know certain product costs more, the placebo effect actually works better. So there's one study, for example, where two groups of subjects

were both given a regular paracetamol. One group was told, this is regular paracetamol, it costs 10p a pop. The other group was told, this is a special type of pill. It costs 10 pounds a pop. The group that was told it costs 10 pounds had a greater effect. It reduces their pain more because they believed that this is a special medicine. And that has a huge effect. And now this is pure medicine. We all know the placebo effect works. In fact, if you have a clinical trial, you have to test your product or your pill relative to a placebo. So I think, you know, if you buy something and it comes in a nice packaging and it costs more, it could potentially make you feel better and you would perceive your skin to be smoother. And I think that's part of the reason that these kind of things are so popular. Anjali, let's say I've got a moisturiser that cost me 50 quid

and I've got something I got from the local place down the road here. You could get there in three minutes and I paid £2.50. I'm actually essentially buying the same product but with maybe better perfume in the more expensive one. That's right. I think there is a very common misconception in the beauty industry that something expensive is therefore better for your skin or more effective for your skin and that's not actually the case. Is it never the case? It's unlikely to be the case. What tends to happen is a lot of companies or labs will produce a lot of products, companies will buy them and they will package them up in their own way.

So the extra money that you're actually spending is on the branding and the packaging and the marketing, not necessarily those ingredients themselves. But we are making ourselves potentially happier by indulging in these products every now and again. So where's the harm? So I think the key point here is, I think the underlying issue that we're not talking about is youth is still seen as a hallmark for beauty. And I think one of the main issues here is we're still not used to seeing women, for example, after they get to a certain age in prominent positions. The anti-aging industry is very, very much built still predominantly on women. So I think that there is an underlying issue where we're not talking about the fact that actually, why are we so afraid of ageing? Ageing is a natural process. It happens to all of us. So I think that's the first thing.

The second thing I'd probably say is, sure, there's no harm in spending more money on a moisturiser, provided you're making that decision based on knowledge that it's making you feel better. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's doing more for your skin. You, I think, are aware of, but don't conduct vampire facials, which I've been hearing a lot about. Just out of interest, why don't you do them? I don't think that the evidence for them is very good. What are they? So vampire facials are essentially when you take blood from a patient or a client. Their own blood. Their own blood. You spin that blood down. You take away, you spin it down in a machine called a centrifuge, and then you spin off the top layer of the blood cells known as platelets.

Now, platelets contain a lot of growth factors. And platelet-rich plasma or vampire facelifts work on the assumption that if you add these growth factors to the skin, they will cause rejuvenation of the skin and anti-aging of the skin. So the data is very sketchy. PRP is often combined with something known as microneedling. And microneedling involves making lots and lots of little holes in the skin surface. And each little hole that's made generates a wound healing response and boosts collagen production. Collagen is? Collagen being that main protein that's found in your skin, the thing that gives your skin its support, its structure, its integrity, the thing that we all start to lose from our mid-20s onwards, which is what contributes to skin ageing. Now the thing with these PRP facials is they're often combined with microneedling.

The microneedling itself may be causing the rejuvenation without the addition of the platelet rich plasma itself. Okay, you have to have a great deal of disposable income to indulge in one of these. We're talking about £1,000, aren't we? Yeah. I mean, starting from probably about 700 in central London places is what you're looking at. Oh, good grief.

Anne-Marie, tempted? I actually had one a few years back, quite a few years back when I was early days of blogging. And I, I mean, the whole blood taking process it was it was an embarrassing one because I suddenly got faint and I had to eat they gave me a custard cream to eat and then I just had to lay there on a bed with a doctor and a nurse watching me a biscuit which wasn't the the ideal circumstance and then I did have it it was I mean it'd been quite hyped up because there'd been a lot of social media with like blood-stained. And my job is to find out if it's, one, bearable,

and two, whether there's anything worth having. And I mean, I agree exactly with what you're saying about the fact that you're causing minor injuries to the skin, which does boost collagen production because it's trying to repair itself really quickly. But I definitely think that my skin was smoother, nicer, plumper afterwards but not for an indefinitely long period. It was like a short term.

Really, if I'd paid that amount of money for a treatment as invasive as that I'd want to feel that my skin looked better as well. I mean, Tali? Well, there's this interesting effect that if there is false information and you repeat it, a lot of times there's a boomerang effect by which what people would remember is the words vampire facial. And they won't necessarily remember that what we said is that, you know, that the evidence for it is kind of sketchy. So I think I'm just kind of highlighting another mechanism of why these kind of treatments

are ones that people would try or would believe in, which is just a repetition of it is enough to cause people to then say, well, I've heard this thing on the BBC, not quite sure what's being said, but I think I might try it. I want you to listen, if you don't mind, to this short clip. It's from a new BBC Sounds podcast called Slice Bread. Now you're about to hear Edzard Ernst. He's a researcher in complementary and alternative medicine. And he's answering a question about so-called energy healing. Here we go. Do you feel there's a harm there for, I mean, if people want to spend their to spend their money a lot of money on you know one of these energy healing treatments or whatever because they feel it works for them even if the evidence is saying that actively it's not doing

anything but that yet the placebo effect is having some benefit they're paying money they're getting that kind of benefit do you feel that's therefore wrong yeah it's very wrong indeed. Because if somebody seriously believes in these forms of quackery and then falls seriously ill with, let's say, cancer and relies on quackery to cure cancer, then this person will die unnecessarily early. That is one point. The other point is that all this nonsense about energy, etc., etc., in terms of energy healing,

undermines rational thought in medicine, but also in much more general terms in society. Well, I think we know where he stands. That's Edzard Ernst. That is a BBC Sounds podcast called Sliced Bread. What would you add to that, Tali? Wellard Ernst, that is a BBC Sounds podcast called Sliced Bread. What would you add to that, Tali? Well, I mean, I agree, there's always a line and a balance between these things that make us feel good. And that's it. And those things that could actually hurt us. And it's

unclear where, you know, you should draw that line. But a lot of these issues, you know, they're not much different from things like religious beliefs. Right. Or other beliefs that people have or even spending tons of money on wine, fine wine or fine dining. I mean, to me, that a lot of times seems ridiculous. So you can say, well, that would not harm you. That's going to age you as well, isn't it? Yes. Quantity of age.

Right. Absolutely right. And it can actually harm you. So, so it really is on kind of a, it matters what we're talking about. And when we talk about it, whether we're talking about cosmetics, which is, you know, a lip color, well, you know, I can spend a lot of money on lip color, because I feel it makes me look better. And therefore I feel better. Or whether we're talking about taking blood out and that can cause dizziness and so on. I think there's a difference there.

Actually, I mean, you are a big presence on Instagram too, aren't you? You use this platform to spread, well, would you say information or how would you describe what you do? I think I would say, I mean, it's scientific information around skin. Because you are a qualified consultant dermatologist. Indeed. And one thing that I feel quite strongly about, actually, is I do think that there is a real kind of, I think, lapse at the moment in critical thinking and scientific thinking. And I think that is part of the reason why people are falling for pseudoscientific beliefs. And

personally, in my opinion, I think it's a slippery slope. I think people that start to believe one thing that is slightly sketchy in the science are more likely to believe others. So I think it can start off with something as harmless as buying a lip cream. But that can be extended to the person that's got a skin disease like acne, for example, that then starts throwing a lot of money on skincare products that aren't going to help their skin, you know, and then it's the knock on effects of that that concern me about what we're seeing at the moment. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. That's Anjali Matto, who's the author of The Skin Care Bible. Thank you. And we also heard from

Tali Sharot. Thank you too. And also Rhi of Really Rhi. Anne-Marie, thank you very much for coming in. The podcast is actually called The Best Things in Sliced Bread, so forgive me. And it is available now on BBC Sounds. Food for thought there. On Twitter and Instagram, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. If you want to comment, of course, as well, you can always email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. Now, last week, a significant written judgment was published

in the family division of the High Court. Miss Justice Russell ruled in favour of a woman appealing for a fresh hearing in her child custody case. It had originally been handled by Judge Robin Tolson. Now he had ruled that the woman had not been raped by her former partner because she had taken no physical steps to stop him. The appeal judgment criticised him for what it described as his outdated ideas of what constitutes consent. It also recommended that family court judges who regularly deal with allegations of sexual assault and domestic violence should do the same training as judges trying these charges in the criminal courts. Now, just to say that the following conversation is going to be a frank one and it will contain some extremely unpleasant detail.

So there is a warning there to anybody who simply doesn't want to hear that today. Jenny Beck is here, director of Beck Fitzgerald Solicitors, a specialist family law firm. Good morning. And joining us from a studio outside London, Louise Tickle, a journalist who specialises in social affairs and family law. Jenny, first of all, how significant is this written judgment? The judgment's very significant. The number of mistakes that were made, both in terms of the law and in terms of following the rules that we have to protect vulnerable people going through the family court process, make it a very significant judgment.

Unfortunately, it isn't an isolated case. How do you know that? I'm a practitioner. I work at the Coalface every day. I specialize in abuse cases, and I see many tens of them on a weekly basis. And where does it start to go wrong? In terms of this particular practice, it's peppered with both legal mistakes and mistakes in terms of following the rules. And I think it's really important to understand that this case is quite sensationalist because of some of the very gruesome detail, but also the very basic rules about how we protect people so

that they can give good evidence within the courtroom and how we look after victims so that they can follow a fair process. I just want to know from you, is what happened here not typical? I would hope it wasn't. What would you say about that? Well, apart from anything else, there's a lot of anecdote about this because, of course, there's no transparency in the family courts for several reasons, many of which are very good. But it means that it's very difficult to get a clear picture. And I certainly hear that there are some very good judges out there who follow the practice direction rules to the letter. There are also some very poor areas of practice which need a lot of work in order to protect vulnerable women and families. Louise, I read some of the written judgment yesterday, and I have to say it contains some

horrendous details, some very explicit details of evidence that the judge, Judge Tolson, had dismissed. Can you tell us a little bit about that? The judge seemed to decide that this woman's evidence was of no value and I think a really good but graphic example of that is where her former partner texted her during the course of the hearing to say, and this is a quote that the judge, the appeal judge, wrote in her judgment, if you don't shut up, I will stick my cock in your ass. And Judge Tolson decided that that was simply a matter of texting. He didn't take any account of how intimidating it was, how threatening it was, or in fact, that it could possibly speak to the fact that this woman was alleging sexual assault and rape.

Yes, it's the fact that that happened within the context of these events. It is frankly mind-blowing that the judge reacted in that way, isn't it? Well, my mind was blown as I read the judgment. I felt really distressed and I think what we have to keep at the forefront of our mind is that this case affects a highly vulnerable very traumatized woman who met this man when she was very young who had a child with him and it's a matter of public record this man has convictions for battery against former girlfriends and she was trying to keep her child safe when this man made applications to be able to see him after she had left him.

You know, she'd fled to a refuge and so on. She is now going to have to go through the trauma of another trial. It was incredibly courageous of her to have taken this to appeal. I am contacted on an almost daily basis now by women who say that they have been dealt with poorly in family courts with regard to their allegations of domestic abuse and sexual assault. It is a high bar to go to appeal. It is very difficult to get permission. Once you go, it's really stressful. And so we need to remember that this woman has done everybody a huge service. Well, credit to her. And as you say, I'm glad you mentioned her courage because it's very significant. If I felt anything actually reading this, Jenny, it was just an astonishing naivety. I honestly didn't know things were this bad. I suppose I thought things had got better. You obviously were not as shocked as me. Actually I was shocked at this judgment and everybody I would encourage everybody to read it

because it is public and it is absolutely shocking and it's really important the lessons are learned from it and there is a review going on at the moment of the way in which the process works which needs to be far-reaching. There also needs to be some immediate steps taken to make sure that we stick a plaster over the current process and afford people the opportunity of giving their evidence properly. This woman wasn't allowed even the basic screens in place to protect her. Yeah, we should make clear, this is the family court. Things happen differently in the family courts. And as you've already said, it's usually not reported at all for a string of good reasons. Why did the judge not allow her to be protected?

I can't answer that question because I don't know, because we've got the appeal and not the original judge's decision-making with us. But there was a decision that she should sit, rather than behind a screen or giving her evidence by video link, she should sit on the same bench that the barristers sit on, which effectively, and she was a traumat, a traumatised victim anyway, probably because of the abuse she suffered. So that made it very difficult for her to give her evidence. And in fact, the judge noted that he hadn't actually heard her, and yet still chose to rely

on the evidence, which of course was not at its best because she was in trauma. She couldn't, of course, give proper evidence. Yes, I think that was what I also found astonishing, Louise, the fact that the judge didn't take into consideration just how traumatised this woman was. Well, it is astonishing. And, you know, this is what I hear virtually every day from people who contact me. Now, the thing that Jenny has mentioned is that, you know, there is no transparency in our family court system. So the rules changed about a decade ago so that journalists could go and sit in court. But while I have done that, gone and sat in court,

I'm not allowed to report anything of the detail of what I see going on in front of me. And the sanctions are very stiff. I could be jailed or I could be fined. And that means the editors are very reluctant to commission you to go and do this because you'll go to court and you won't be able to write what you see. And yet, you know, while I have seen fact finding with extremely good practice, I have also been to fact finding in a domestic abuse case where I emerged from court extremely concerned about the judicial attitude to what did and didn't constitute consent and rape.

And that is really worrying to me that I can see it, but I'm not allowed to say it. Well, you're saying it now, but I appreciate that you're not giving us the detail you probably want to give us. And so we come now to the ruling from Ms Justice Russell. She's suggesting that family court judges need better training, the same as judges in the criminal courts. But actually, that is also mind boggling to me, Jenny, why didn't they already get it? Well, they do have training. And they have relatively extensive training on the practice directions, for example, which also weren't necessarily followed in this case. So I hear that the training is important and ongoing

judicial training is important, but it's clearly not solving the problem in its entirety. Otherwise, we wouldn't still have cases like this. So there needs to be something else in place as well. For example, we need to have legal aid, proper representation for both parties in court. So we've got equality of arms and somebody being able to have an overview of what's happening. We need domestic abuse champions in court, so that people have the right to give their evidence properly with all the necessary measures in place. We need a range of measures in place to protect people at the moment

whilst we await the outcome of the review. Do you take heart from the fact that we're at least having this conversation that what Mr Justice Russell has ruled does mean that, well, at least there's been controversy and it's become a talking point? Yes, it was the second thing I thought after I read the judgment that this blows the lid off it and that it's really important that people see this. Louise? Well, I take heart because this really must be a landmark judgment.

But as long as the family courts remain going on behind closed doors, we are going to struggle to really see the scale of the problem. Yes, but we know that they're private for a string of good reasons. How could they be reported publicly? If you can do secure anonymisation, like happens in criminal cases with rape complainants, as happens with young people who are accused of criminal offences, the media is very well practised in creating anonymisation that protects people. And we are often ordered to do that by judges in criminal courts. And it goes fine. It is vanishingly, vanishingly rare for those provisions to be breached. And so with good anonymisation, I think it would be entirely possible to be able to describe the process of what goes on in family courts rather than, as at present, simply the outcomes. Jenny? Well, I think there are some excellent practice directions in place

and also some very good judges. It shouldn't need public scrutiny to keep the judiciary doing their job correctly. I hear what Louise says. I think there are difficulties because you're balancing freedom of expression against right to privacy, which is always a very difficult thing.

And of course, when there are children involved, it's extremely hard to make sure that there's no ability to put together the story and work out how the victim, work out who the victim is. We should say, I asked this question of a colleague last night, do judges choose to work in this area? And the answer is that yes, they do. Judge Tolson has chosen to become a judge in the family court. And yet, he appeared to have these outdated notions about consent. Again, I've said, just seems astounding. He's a leadership judge in the family court. He's the designated judge for central family court. Right. Okay. Well, there we'll leave it. Thank you both very much indeed.

I really appreciate your involvement. Jenny Beck, director of Beck Fitzgerald Solicitors. And you also heard from Louise Tickle, a journalist who specialises in social affairs and family law. Now, tomorrow on Woman's Hour, we're going to be looking at a new study that says that nurses are undervalued because they're mostly women. And because we still hold an old fashioned view that caring for others is just one of those things that women can't do enough of. Jenny is going to talk to one of the study's authors and Dame Donna Kinnair, who is the Chief Exec and General Secretary of the Royal College of Nursing. That should be interesting. And that's on Women's Hour tomorrow. Now to the award-winning novelist and screenwriter, Emma Jane Unsworth.

Welcome to the programme. I think you've dumped the Jane, which I find very insulting. And you're just going with the Emma. This is it. This is it. I'm keeping it real. That's what it is. Well, you are. You're from Bury.

This is true. So what else would you do? This is the new novel Adults. Yes, it is. It says here it's about friendship, family, love and what it means to be an adult. Yes. You have described it as a comedy of manners for the digital age. So a brief little bit

from you about that please what do you mean by that so by that i mean it's a comedy first and foremost even though it does touch upon some dark subjects um but dark comedy is what i love reading and what i like writing best and and yeah i didn't want to write a digital book i didn't want to write a book that was laid out in text messages and online exchanges but i had a lot of people are doing that i know but i had to sort of back down my inner snob and say look this is the way it's coming out this is where this character is going because of what she's been through and this is where she's spinning out and actually I found that even though she's very extreme where she goes with it I could relate to a lot of what she was experiencing and I hope that

readers will be able to too. You I think have compared it to Carrie Fisher's Postcards from the Edge. Oh, I mean, that was such a big inspiration for me. I love that book. I think it's a masterclass in voice and in comedy and I think it's wonderful. And yeah, I suppose she had postcards. I've got emails and text messages and social media. I agree with you about Carrie Fisher's book. If anybody hasn't read it, you should definitely look that up.

It reminded me, and this is rather a nerdy reference, of Less Than Zero, Brett Easton Ellis. Oh, I haven't read it. Oh definitely look that up it reminded me and this is rather a nerdy reference of less than zero brett easton ellis oh i haven't read it oh well there you go i gave you all of my knowledge i may be completely wrong there but for some reason that that that was the thing that came back to me right i want you to to read because i want everybody to be plunged into the world of your central character and your central character is jen She is, yes. And take us into her head, please. Okay, here we go. They say screens at bedtime are bad for your brain. But the sensation of holding a phone is, I find, therapeutic. I find the shape of it reassuring, soothing. I press it to my chest like a Bible.

Every few minutes I lift it up and look to see what has changed in the world. I feel the weight of my thumb. My heart pounds. My veins thrum. I am the weight of my thumb. My heart pounds. My veins thrum. I am in every way alive and progressing. My brain is lit up like the earth from space at night. I have a couple more likes for the croissant. I think it's reasonable to conclude now that it wasn't worth it. I squandered an entire morning on that. I can't keep building these cathedrals out of crumbs. I should say she's just done a post about a croissant that morning on Instagram.

I scroll. A friend of mine, a semi-famous scriptwriter, has posted a picture of herself in a lift. She isn't smiling. She looks like she's in a perfume ad, like she's thinking, look at me, don't look at me. Who are you? I don't trust you. It is very effective and confusing.

I comment, looking reflective. We're real life friends, but she doesn't follow me on here, which has always been a point of hurt. I know she seldom uses social media and she has a strict sense of how she is seen, but why don't I fit in with however she's seen? Why am I not perfect follow material? Also, cuttingly, she follows some truly trashy vloggers, which is a real kick in the teeth. Now I've posted the comment, I start to worry. It's like I forget this stage of the process, like I set myself up for it. She might not reply. She hasn't in the past. So why does that boil down to a failing on my part? I have to ask myself that because it does. I didn't used to have this, this innate distrust of myself. I feel like I've lost

my pace. It's like everything has been speeding up and up and up and I reached my own terminal velocity. I thought my 20s felt like rush hour, but no, my 20s were just pleasantly hectic. The 30s are the real rush hour. So that's just a couple of minutes spent inside Jenny's head and I'm exhausted. First of all, we need to nail down the croissant reference. Jenny has, she's thought very long and hard about this, trying to get a really good image of a croissant sticking it on insta yes she has labored and labored over a ridiculous post about pastry you know the plain fact is i often i have thought about how i've been i tweet rather than do instagram i'll do a bit of instagram don't really get it do get i mean i do get a thrill when I get loads of yes it's true you get a little dopamine

hit in your brain yeah you really do and it's irresistible so Jenny is 35 she's 35 and tell us a little bit about her life as we start the novel so she is going through a breakup um but she's very much doing her little I'm fine dance all over town and all over social media um but she is falling apart inside. And her job, she's not doing very well at her job and her friendships are starting to break down as well because she's becoming this person who is essentially dishonest with everyone in the world around her, including herself.

And then her mother comes back on the scene as well, who she's had a strange relationship with, shall we say. They're not quite, you know, they've been in touch, but they're not estranged, but it's still, it's fraught between them. So, yes, I wanted to capture someone who is in their mid-30s, but still very much lost and confused by the world, because that's how I found myself in my mid-30s. Personally, I think it's a bit of a myth and a bit of a setup that we're told we're going to have our lives sorted out by that point, or indeed at any point.

Well, yeah, I'm afraid the bad news is it never gets any easier. She's also, she's got flatmates because she has to have flatmates. And there's something about that that irks her. And I think probably it's a situation that loads of people listening can relate to. Yeah, they're younger than her and have great lives. And are still living in, I suppose in that passage I referred to it, is the sort of the, I think it's chaos of the 20s, or the pleasantly hectic-ness of the 20s, which I think that for me felt really real. Like, in my 20s, it was this beautiful, joyous chaos. I was quite

lucky in that way, perhaps, because I didn't have any responsibilities other than just going out with my friends, and we all fell into the same bar at the weekends. And that was wonderful. And I felt very free at that time. But then I suppose in my 30s, the stakes felt higher with everything. Well, that's because they are. Yeah. And you suddenly become aware for the first time that you might be mortal and you might be running out of time in some way. So you better decide on some things quickly. And that's terrifying. In your 20s, you can have potential right up until your late 20s, really.

And you get to 35 and if you haven't got anywhere near to achieving your potential. That's it. And not only that, there's all the physical stuff as well. If you do want to biologically procreate or even thinking about that as a woman, 35 is a pretty significant number. And I wanted to write about the panic of that and the labels that often come with that too. I think I've described it as a frantic book. It is a bit frantic. Oh, it is. It was exhausting to write. Right, I bet it was. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Yeah, and I think it's probably exhausting to read and I'm really sorry about that. But I hope it's funny too. I really did want to write a very fast-paced comedy. So I hope it's funny amidst the exhaustion. Can I say you've upset one of our tweeters, Felicity,

who says, quote, a ridiculous post about pastry. Posting croissant pics is a very important bit of work, I'll have you know. I think Felicity actually is a food writer. Oh, well, there you go. My protagonist would be with her all the way. Yeah. Now, you are from Bury in Greater Manchester. You have set

previous things you've done there or in the north of England, haven't you? But this one is a very London book. It is. I mean, and it was like the digital thing. I was like, no, I'm not going to write a London book. Don't do it, Emma, don't do it. There's enough books about London.

But it just came out that way. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it was where she had to be for the story to truly make sense. But she's very much a northerner in London because I wanted to write about that displacement and she's kept her vowels and all those kinds of things and her mother when she comes down is very much a Lancashire mum in London um so I wanted to write about that because

that was great fun as well and you say it was it was fun to write but it was also very frantic are you going for something calmer next time no I'm serious but I'm writing about sisters next and yes it isn't it isn't as it doesn't's a piece of cake. Absolutely a piece of cake, that. It isn't as, it doesn't play out online as much as this one does. And there's two timelines, 15-year-olds and 30-odd-year-olds. So, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I'm only halfway through it.

So we'll see. I'm sure I'll be exhausted by the end of it because books are exhausting. Yeah. Well, yes, I'm sure they are. I mean, I've only got, I'm still on page 48 of my life story, which is an absolute gripper, I can tell you. I mean, well, yes, I'm sure they are. I mean, I've only got I'm still on page 48 of my life, my life story, which is an absolute gripper, I can tell you. I mean, I was actually word 48. I'm not paying. I've been challenged to do a fine thing. Thank you very much, Emma. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks, Jane. Emma Jane Unsworth. And it is it is frantic, but it's brilliant. It's called

Adults and it's out now. Now, in France, a debate has been raging for some time about what used to be acceptable in so-called intellectual circles. A woman called Vanessa Springora has made a string of allegations in a book that she was groomed when she was 14 by a much admired author who was then 50. Anne-Elisabeth Moutet is a French journalist. Anne-Elisabeth, good morning to you. Good morning. Can you just explain who is Vanessa Springora? She's actually a significant person in her own right, isn't she now? Yes, because she now is in charge of Édition Julia, which is a well-known Parisian literary publishing house. And she has written this book, which is an autobiographical book, with the talent of a real literary writer, which means that, again, the French respect literature. I think we're going to talk about this in a moment. And she has a voice which is comparable to the voice of the man who groomed

her and had an affair with her when she was 14. Who is this man? Gabriel Metzneff. Gabriel Metzneff is now 83. He was a novelist and a diarist from the late 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s. Talented, never hit from being attracted to very young persons, let's put it that way. Brought this in his diary, but everything was excused by the fact that he had literary prize. He wrote very well. There was the attitude of an old-fashioned esthete

and how old-fashioned came out with Vanessa Spangora's book. But people thought this is somebody to respect. Again, this was somebody who was enjoying, to use a modern word, privilege in the literary world. I just want to read a statement from him. He has denied any wrongdoing and claimed there had been an exceptional love between him and Springora. He said he didn't deserve the ugly portrait that had been painted of him. No, this is not me.

This is not what we experienced together. And you know it, he said. That was in a statement to the magazine L'Express. You say that all this was known and all this was discussed and because France is not Britain, although we certainly can't pretend that such things have not happened here, people let it go, did they, Anne Elizabeth? That was just him being him and he was a genius, so what did it matter?

That's more or less it, except that it was known, but it wasn't discussed. And the one time when it was actually discussed in France's most prestigious literary program, which has now lasted for over 20 years, called Apostrof en Primetime in television, there were several guests and the host, the well-known Bernard Pivot, and there was one single novelist,

a Canadian, and that probably matters to not a French woman. And they all sort of talked about his book. And she said, I'm outraged. This is pedophilia. This is obscene. How can you all sit there and discuss this? And she was not exactly sprung upon because it was a polite program at a different age.

But people looked at her and said, who is this sort of strange person from the outside who doesn't know the sophistication of our country? This has been now going on YouTube and has been played in France many times. And you can see the single woman saying this is unacceptable and all those men saying that doesn't go. And Matznet himself is outraged. He says, Madame, I don't allow you to say things like that. And note the I don't allow you, this whole notion that he was superior and he could dominate people. Vanessa Springora has used the expression domination when she said, you know, one of the reasons that she wrote this book is that she wanted to question the whole idea of male domination on women, especially in sexual affairs. And you could see a sort of conversation equivalent of this on television.

It was very instructive. I know that some people have leapt on this and called it the French Me Too, the French literary Me Too. Is that fair? I would say, yes, it's fair. We had, before the Me Too movement, two years before, no more than that, 2011, we had a political MeToo at the time when Dominique Strauss-Gann was arrested in New York on suspicions now disproved of rape in a hotel. But his private life was extremely messy with

orgies and prostitutes and all sorts of things. And there was a kind of strange union of all women in the political world. And there was even a special issue of Libération, the daily newspaper, where they had political leaders from every party from the extreme left to Marine Le Pen, all saying, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. And they all described the same thing thing the assumption by men in politics that women were there like a kind of buffet to help themselves so that's before Me Too

and then there's Me Too and there's a French Me Too called balance ton poids squeal on your pick and you know strong words and saying this is what happened to me this is what happened to me and this is definitely the one in which

the last of the French exception is sort of put to rest. It's, yes, talent excuses many things, but it doesn't excuse everything, and certainly not things that were illegal at the time. No, I noticed that earlier on you used the word sophisticated. And that really struck me because that was, it's a ridiculous catch-all term for paedophilia. But that was the view of some people in these so-called literary intellectual circles that the way they were behaving wasn't exploiting anybody. It was simply sophisticated. Yes. And the question of consent is, can a 14-year-old girl have consent? Isn't there such an imbalance that you cannot talk about consent?

But Vanessa Springora, who really wrote a beautiful book, says that she was in love, that she told her mother, who was worried about this, that if she couldn't see Gabriel Matzneff, she would commit suicide. And when Matzneff writes to, I think, Le Nouvel Observateur, a letter saying that was a beautiful love story, I'm absolutely sure that that was true in his mind. The problem is that it wasn't true in reality. There was also the unfortunate intervention of some older actresses, wasn't there, who said they actually wanted the right to flirt. And that was all extraordinarily confusing and unfortunate. Well, we're talking about this in the context of an actual paedophiliac affair.

And since I co-wrote and signed this letter, what we said was rape is rape. Age of concern is age of concern. We do not want people to sort of traumatise men to such an extent that they wouldn't try to tell us that we uh they were interested in us and that was entirely different so you're taking this slightly personally i'm horrified by the matzner affair i you know we're not just aging actresses on that list there were 100 women of all ages on that list and we said there is a french difference which is that we like men and women's relations not to be a trench war, that's all. Yeah, no, I'm not suggesting for a minute that what you said or signed up to was unfortunate

in that sense. I suppose in a way that's, I mean, what you've said there is what everybody in Britain would also want, surely. I don't really see the difference. Yeah. Yes, I think we were portrayed in, you know, every time I did lots of television on this, and I kept on saying, please read it to the end and you will see what we mean. And it's got nothing to do with, you know, aggression. It's got nothing to do with domination of women and the women who signed that letter. I mean, many of them are feminists. That's the French journalist Anne-Elisabeth Moutet. To your thoughts on, let's start with beauty and wellness and the topic we discussed right at the beginning of the program this is from sally who does we should say run her own skincare company

she says some skincare products cost more because the ingredients are better quality we grow all our own plants using organic and wildlife friendly methods and we use them in our products they cost more than cheap stuff which is made in bulk often at a high environmental cost uh from frankie if i was paying 700 quid for a facial i'd expect to i'd expect a better biscuit than a custard cream um yes that was a reference to the custard cream that anne marie i think had to have after her vampire facial i could honestly say i will never have that custard cream after a vampire facial moment because i'll never have a vampire facial this is from susan i totally agree about the beauty industry being so worrying as people are being persuaded to part with loads of cash

in order to look beautiful. Also, the placebo effect has been known for a very long time. My gripe is that when energy healing is thrown in with all of this, you had a scientist on the other day who was so patronising about things like energy healing. Energy healing has been used for thousands of years. It isn't new. I also wonder why you don't have any reputable energy healers on.

It's really about getting both sides. There have always been good energy healers and not so good energy healers. Tanya says, listening this morning, I was that 20 to 30 year old buying all the creams, the lotions and the potions. But now, 30 years on, I remember and practice what my Spanish friend's mother told me all those years ago when I'd asked for some soap to wash my face never use anything on your face she said that's crazy talk I thought but now not having used any cleansers or moisturizers for years but just a cold wetannel, my skin is fairly perfect.

But that's something the beauty industry doesn't want you to know. Well, now we do know. And that's it. I'm going home, Tanya. I'm going to chuck it out the lot. They're all going in a gigantic skip. Of course, she's probably right, isn't she?

In fact, that's the terrible truth. Listening to all this BS about anti-aging, says Bridget. Women, keep your hard earned money. Go for a walk. Bridget, you're also making a fine point. Oh, Richard's back. I don't know whether this is yesterday's Richard or a new Richard, but either way, we welcome his intervention. It really annoys the hell out of me, says Richard. Having once had a girlfriend who spent two hours every morning getting ready to face the world. Current 52-year-old girlfriend, who I've known since she was 15, moisturises and nothing else, and she looks stunning at least 10 years younger. Her

paranoia about staying out of the sun has worked. Men do nothing to their faces but wash with soap and water and we shave, yet we end up in old age with better complexions than women who will have spent tens of thousands over a lifetime being conned into buying the latest miracle potion or worse. When will you all stop being so paranoid and therefore gullible over the way you look. Richard, I just can't think why women are so obsessed with their appearance, or perhaps some would argue, she said carefully, Richard, that we have been made to feel this way. I mean, heaven forfend, but I put it to you that that is a possibility. Now, on the really important subject of the family court, so I was, I mean, I just thought this was incredible. Naomi says, it's shocking, I just can't quite believe how poorly the family court dealt with that case you were discussing. Elle Taylor says, I am speechless and so angry.

I want to know how the judge could possibly be considered the right man to be presiding over these cases. I am livid. Here's an email from another listener. I am listening to your piece on the lack of understanding from a judge in the family court. I had to apply to renew my non-molestation order against my abusive ex-partner and I was terrified about going to court and having to see my abuser. Although I was told I could ask for screens, they were not a guarantee. Luckily, my ex didn't turn up for the hearing, but I was terrified.

Also so terrified that I wouldn't be able to string a coherent sentence together I got my order renewed but felt I almost had to beg the judge who simply didn't understand that the mind games an abusive partner can use against their victim is just as bad if not more difficult to overcome than the physical violence. I've suffered broken bones and bruises. They healed way more swiftly than the impact on my mental health. Yes, judges do need more training. Another email on that subject. I separated from the father of my children two years ago. He consistently threatens me via text and email. He is verbally abusive, refuses to pay maintenance unless I do

certain things or meet certain demands and tells the children it's all my fault and mummy is mean to daddy. He was occasionally physically abusive while we were together. When I call him out on his behaviour, he denies everything. I have physical evidence of this. I hope this appeal goes well as too many women have to cope with men who treat them like this. Men that brush it off as nothing when it in fact permeates every fibre of your being and brings you to your knees with exhaustion, feelings of worthlessness and occasionally suicidal thoughts. Listening to your item a couple of moments ago, says another listener, on this distressing case in the family court. I was struck amongst other things by the fact that the judge apparently ruled that there was no question of rape because the victim didn't resist the perpetrator's advances. I'd like to say that non-resistance to rape is often what saves a person's life. I was hijacked and raped by two men in South Africa

some years ago and I did not resist. I was told by the police later that it probably saved my life. They told of another woman who had a similar ordeal the same night. She resisted and she was literally smashed to pieces with bricks. Gosh, I mean that is, to put it mildly, that is tough to hear. And can I just say thank you to all the very brave listeners who got in touch with the programme today after hearing that conversation about the family courts. Our best wishes to you all. And thank you for being willing to give us some of your experiences. Tomorrow, Jenny is here, of course, with the programme and the podcast. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.