Woman's Hour - Gracie Spinks' parents, Child-free women at work, Grandma Wong

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

23-year-old Gracie Spinks was killed by a man who she had reported to the police for stalking her. The inquest into her death reported several failures by Derbyshire Police in how her case was handled. Now, her parents, Richard Spinks and Alison Ward, are campaigning for Gracie’s Law, which would ensure better training for police officers around stalking, and the appointment of independent stalking advocates. They join Emma Barnett to discuss Gracie and the changes they want to be made in her memory.‘There is an expectation that women like me – without children - will pick up the slack so the working mums can have time off with their families’. Those are the words of Sam Walsh who has worked every Boxing Day for the last 20 years. She decided to quit her retail job in October because she resented having to work over the Christmas period. Sam, who runs The Non Mum Network Facebook group and website, says working parents shouldn’t be given priority. Today is the beginning of the Jimmy Lai trial in Hong Kong - a national security case against the media mogul and pro-democracy activist who has been accused of conspiring to collude with foreign forces. Outside the court is the familiar face of a woman affectionately known as 'Grandma Wong', real name Alexandra. Cindy Yu, Assistant Editor of The Spectator, tells us more about her.The damage being done to girls’ education in Afghanistan has been well documented, but new research suggests the Taliban is causing ‘irreversible damage’ to boys’ education too. Research carried out by Human Rights Watch found that female teachers have been replaced by men with no qualifications, and that boys are subject to brutal punishment. Emma speaks to Sahar Fetrat, the author of the report.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We are there, the last full week before the Christmas break. How's that looking from your perspective? Will there be any break involved? I ask because one of my guests has always worked Christmas Eve and then Boxing Day again during her career in retail and found herself falling asleep on Christmas Day early on in proceedings. And it's led her to writing a newspaper article entitled Why as a childless woman I've quit my job

because I can't bear yet another Christmas picking up the slack for working mums. It's had quite a reaction. But it's not just about Christmas time. Samantha Walsh feels this unfairness the whole year round, as those with children, mainly women in her field of work, leave early regularly or don't come in due to repeat child sickness and ill health. And she set up an online network for women without children who feel similarly.

She also says working parents shouldn't be given priority over leave from work. Can you relate to that? It is a longstanding issue for some, and actually you could argue comes down to a lot of the time a lack of engagement by bosses and those who set the rules and tone at businesses and try and make things fairer. But there is also a gulf in empathy, it seems, between women, depending on their respective situations. I'd like to give you the opportunity to get that off your chest here

on Woman's Hour this morning. Don't hold back. You know I always want to hear what you actually think and you're usually obliged. So thank you in advance. You can text me here on 84844. Text will be charged

at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, as pro-democracy media tycoon Jimmy Lai goes on trial in Hong Kong on charges of breaching national security and colluding with foreign forces, something his son says is a show trial, the sight of one woman, 67-year-old Alexandra Wong, nicknamed Grandma Wong, staging a lone protest outside that courtroom has caught

the world's attention. But who is she? We'll tell you more. And why one Afghan women's rights campaigner is turning her attention to how the Taliban's education system is failing boys and what that means for girls. All that to come and more. But first, I'm joined by two parents this morning fighting for a change in police processes and the law, a fight they wish they didn't have to take on. In June 2021, their 23-year-old daughter, Gracie Sphinx, was stabbed to death by Michael Sellers, a former work colleague of hers, in the field where she looked after her horse. Paramedics were unable to save her.

Sellers' body was discovered shortly afterwards. He had taken his own life. And this may well be a case that you have heard something about in recent months because this wasn't a chance attack. Michael Sellers had been Gracie's supervisor at work. They had been friends, but she'd ended the friendship. However, she'd continued to receive unwanted attention from him. She did everything we are told you're meant to do,

she reported him to the police and to the company where they both worked and he subsequently lost his job. The police conducted an investigation, which was closed after he was classed as low risk. In an inquest which concluded last month, the coroner ruled that Gracie Spinks had been unlawfully killed and that Derbyshire Police are hanging forward with an apology for what they called significant failures on its part.

In a prevention of future deaths report, the coroner stated that the lack of independent stalking advocates in some areas of the country means there is, quote, a postcode lottery for victims who report stalking to the police. I'm joined now by Gracie's parents, Richard Spinks and Alison Ward, who are campaigning for something called Gracie's Law, which we will get to shortly. Good morning to you both. Thank you for being here. Morning, Emma.

It has been almost three years since you lost Gracie, and I just thought I'd come to you, Alison, first. I imagine it's a particularly difficult time of the year as you approach Christmas Yeah it is it's very very hard, it's like you say especially this time of year my younger daughter actually has insisted

this year we do put up a tree which we've never done since the last Christmas that we had with Gracie in Christmas 2020 but yeah we've put a tree up this year we're trying to I don't know adapt to our new normal I suppose. Richard how are you doing this morning as we talk to you? Yeah not so bad it is a very difficult time as as Alison has said and it's the third Christmas without Gracie now and it's very hard especially this time of the year with families

getting together and celebrating. I don't feel like celebrating as such, and I don't think I ever will. Christmas will never be the same again without Gracie. It's left a big hole in all of our lives. And she was so full of Christmas as well, wasn't she? Oh, yeah, absolutely. She was the first one.

When can we put the trimmings up? You know, yeah, absolutely. She was the first one. When can we put the trimmings up? You know, yeah, absolutely loved Christmas. Even dressing her horse up. Paddy would have a Christmas outfit. He'd have tinsel in his mane, tinsel in his tail, yeah. She absolutely loved all the Christmas songs. She knew all the words. Even from a young age, she'd be singing along with Mariah Carey

and Shakin' Stevens. You know, all the standard Christmas songs. She loved them. And yeah, she's a very musical girl and very happy. Just everybody loved Gracie. Like we say so many times, but it's so true. She lit up the room wherever she went. It's lovely to be able to think of her as she was, as you knew her and put her where we are right now in the calendar. I am always really aware of how this time can affect families who are experiencing loss. So that's why I just wanted to start by checking in and asking that. Because I also, you know, just to come back to you, Richard,

on the thought of reliving a lot of this with the inquest, I mentioned what had been concluded there only last month but how did you find that process? Well it was extremely painful obviously going there for nearly three weeks every day and having to sit through all of the evidence and seeing the five police officers being asked all the questions and for them to give their reasons as to why they didn't do the things they should have done. And it was just so emotionally draining and frustrating as well, because obviously we couldn't intercede and get involved with the conversations. We just had to sit there and listen until we did read out our statements towards the end.

But yeah, a very difficult time. But I'm glad that part of it's over now now because we're looking forward to, you know, getting underway with the campaign to try and change things across the country for all police forces. We will come to that, but for you, Alison, do you feel any sense of justice or anything after what's happened with the coroner? Can you feel that? I think, you know, we had a, it was brilliant, Matthew Cooley, the coroner? Can you feel that? I think, you know, we had a... It was brilliant. Matthew Cooley, the coroner,

and the jury were really attentive. They were brilliant, asked lots of questions. And I do feel like, you know, we had a positive outcome with the inquest, as, like I said, Mr Cooley has done his future prevention of future death report and you know he isn't just focusing on something locally with like Derbyshire police he has took this to the home office so we are looking at a national change outcome like you mentioned earlier about being a postcode sort of lottery that you know

depending where you are in the country as to what service you get with regards to we can only speak about you know the stalking side of things which is what we've had firsthand with you know witness at but uh yeah so yeah i think we were all pleased as a family with the outcome that, I say, Matthew Cooley gave us. Yes, and came to. I want to play for our listeners, and I want to be very clear with both of your approval on this, a clip that was made public at that inquest. I know that you feel it's important for people to hear this and where possible at Women's Hour, we want to centre the woman at the heart of these sorts of cases, in this case, your daughter. What you're about to hear is Gracie ringing the police to report Michael Sellers a few months before her death.

Good evening, Doris Grace. How can I help? Hiya. I'm just wanting to report something that happened with the supervisor at my work. Okay, what's your surname? Spinks, S-P-I-N-K-S. And your first name? Gracie. So, basically, me and this supervisor, we were messaging a bit on Messenger and stuff,

getting to know each other, and then I called it off because I didn't have no feelings for him um and then he became like obsessed with me and wouldn't leave me alone and basically loads of things happened um and then on the 4th of January before, he was sat waiting at my horse's field, like waiting for me to go there, which scared me a lot. And so I drove straight to work and I told work and they've been doing a big massive investigation on him and he got suspended. He got the sack, but then now he's trying to appeal it, saying that I'm a liar and this other person's a liar. And I'm just, I don't want anything to happen.

I don't want him to be arrested or anything but I just want something to be on file and for me to report this because my work is I've said that things have happened like this in the past and that this is the worst one that's happened and he's said that every every time this has happened at work it got worse and worse and I'm just worried that, you know, the next time it happens to someone else, that you're not going to, you know, it could be worse than just following me and not leaving me alone. You know, it might kidnap someone.

Do you know what I mean? Gracie Spinks speaking to Derbyshire Police, reporting the man who murdered her a few months later. Not easy for you to hear that, I imagine, but I know you wanted that to be played and it was played, as I said, at the inquest. Richard, if I could come to you. Your daughter did everything she was meant to do. What do you think the police didn't do?

Well, you know, after she'd reported it to the police, you know, we all thought that everything was done and sorted, done and dusted and she'd be okay. And so did she particularly. We never mentioned it again. I think the police obviously just didn't investigate or do their job properly. There was complete failure right across the board for all the officers involved um in really investigating um going to the grace's employer um going to the field and finding out where the bag maybe you'll come to that in a bit with the bag of weapons was found after it was handed in lots of things i mean it they just didn't tick the boxes they didn't investigate nothing was logged in on the computer things. I mean, they just didn't tick the boxes. They didn't investigate. Nothing was logged in on the computer system. And a general attitude of apathy, and I can't

be bothered, and we'll just get this sorted and go home. And that's the attitude that I found came through in all of them. So terribly frustrating to hear all that fresh again in the inquest. So yeah, complete and utter failure by the police. You just mentioned there about a bag of weapons. A member of the public, Anna White, found a bag containing weapons that belonged to Michael Sellers a month before he murdered Gracie. Derbyshire Police treated the bag as lost property and Miss White told the BBC she was shocked that the police did nothing.

She thinks Gracie would still be here if the police had done the right thing when the bag was handed in. Do you agree? I don't know who wants to answer that, Alison or Richard. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, at the inquest, the police said they thought they were theatrical props or woodwork tools. I mean, if you saw what was in the bag, there was Viagra, there was Don't Lie, there was a brand-new hammer, there were military knives, there was an axe. They were all brand-new. It was a very, very sinister bag.

And for them just to put it into you know a found property it it was terrible and and it just to be across the road from you know from the horse field where gracie kept a horse and where she'd already made the complaint to the police that uh michael had been waiting for on the 4th of january uh basically if they'd have joined up all the dots and done their job properly they would have connected the bag to the place where Gracie reported him waiting for her at the stables and put two and two together and visited him and you know we'd have all been aware of the danger involved and it wouldn't be low risk at all it'd be very high risk again there was no investigation done you know there was a receipt in that bag that was martson

spencer's receipt that linked to the seller's household which after gracie had died that that was traced back to the seller's household within a few hours whereas if they'd have done that when the bag was found you know they they could have traced it then and questioned, you know, why is this bag? You know, the contents. There's so many things. I mean, we listened to the police officers that found the bag, sorry, that went to Anna White's that night after she'd found the bag. And, you know, one of the officers had put in his statement

that it was sneaky that the call handler had given them that job because it wasn't really on their patch. They literally just wanted that bag out of the way and just shut down. They didn't want to do anything with it because they felt like it wasn't even their job to do it because it wasn't on their patch kind of thing.

The whole thing was closed down by, I think Anna White found it about half past six in the evening. The whole thing was closed down by, I think Anna White found it about half past six in the evening. The whole thing was closed down by ten past eight that evening by Sergeant Lee Richards, who, like I say, thought there were theatrical props or woodwork tools. Sergeant Richards, the detective, as you name it, who led part of the investigation concerning that bag of weapons, was at the inquest. He said he'd been a fool and that it could be said that he had got it wrong. No action could be taken against him by the Independent Office for Police Conduct as he retired in August of this year. And we will get to what you're trying to change now. But just to go back to something you said there which I'm really struck by Richard

that after Gracie had reported this to the police you didn't talk more about it you thought it would be okay I presume because she had done that because you have every faith in the police and we thought once she had reported it to them that they'd act on it and they'd spoken to him

and that was the end of it. I don't think we really knew enough about stalking or realised the dangers involved. We certainly do now, because we've learned so much about this since. And as I say, we were all just going about our everyday lives, and so was Gracie, and it was forgotten. And then suddenly there was this terrible news on June the 18th. And, you know, it's just so frustrating that we... I'm lost for words sometimes because, you know, I think the faith in the police is at a very low ebb at the moment across the country and things need to be stirred up,

changes need to be made. Alison, was it something you and Gracie ever spoke about or a similar thing for you that this had, you know, gone away for all intents and purposes? Yeah, we just, yeah. You know, I was sat with her that evening when the officers came round, when Gracie made a complaint to the officers following that 101 call that you've just listened to.

And they left saying that they were going to go and have a word with Michael. Again, in the inquest, it turned out, I think it was about 11 days after that, that they went to speak to him and they just spoke to him in a car park at Rother Valley Country Park. And looking at it now and how it's come across in the inquest, that that actually escalated his level of risk, sort of antagonised him maybe. But certainly he'd gone quiet in Gracie's life, or so we thought. But again, in the inquest, we now know that he was driving past the house

and circling round near our house but Gracie wasn't aware of that but yeah we just kind of thought she'd you know reported it to the police it was being dealt with had been dealt with and sort of the problem had gone away he'd lost his job at work so he wasn't able to be a nuisance to her in the workplace. So it just all went very quiet and Michael Sellers dropped off our radar, if you know what I mean. And Gracie being such a confident and go-get person, I mean, she didn't let things bother her.

She'd sweep it under the table, any problem, she'd deal with it and move on. She just wanted to get on with her life and therefore that was an episode that wasn't very nice for her and us and it was forgotten and we all carried on with our lives but we had no idea that this was going on in the background. Alison, what do you remember of your last conversation with your daughter?

It was just sort of a normal Friday morning. We just used to both get up for work at same sort of time my daughter was getting up for school and i always used to take gracie a cup of tea up to bed when uh when i got up first and you know just just our normal conversation sort of thing yeah and we had a brief chat in the kitchen and she rushed out. And, yeah, I can't believe it, you know, when you think last time, you know, you speak, it's terrible. Yeah, I remember the last time I saw her was on the Tuesday and this happened on the Friday.

And I always made a point whenever I sort of said goodnight to her or goodbye, I'd always kiss her on the forehead and say love you and that kind of thing. And that image and that kind of thing. That image and that is, stay with me, you know, it's a sad moment. But it's just a vision and a memory you have of a certain time and place. There's no shortage of love in this household. We all tell each other we love each other all the time after, you know, anybody leaves the house, okay, bye, see you see you love you and the phone calls love you you know it's uh yeah we're a loved up family it's important it's really important um and thank you thank you for

sharing that i what are you trying to do in her name now tell us about gracie's law well i think the thing that came through in the inquest is the lack of training with the police some of them had just had tiny little bits of training years ago that they'd forgotten about it wasn't refresh there was no refresher courses there wasn't direct stalking training there wasn't any body in situ to deal with stalking cases that knew all the ins and outs the rules and regs and the procedures which is why we want to have in all the police forces across the country a coordinator or coordinators and advocates to deal with reports from young girls women and men particularly young

girls young girls you know they're being stalked now hundreds of them i'm sure and they're just afraid of going to the police because they're not going to be listened to taken seriously or the police aren't going to act on it or do anything about it so that's where we're going with Gracie's Law we just want changes across the board if one police constabulary can do that then that

can act as a model for the others and to be fair Derbyshire Constabulary have made some changes already and set on a coordinator and an advocate with a second advocate to follow. So in a way, you know, we've made some changes already, but it's just not enough at the moment. We have been approached as well, haven't we, by Derbyshire Constabulary to see about maybe going forward with them helping with some sort of training.

We don't know what capacity yet. It's something we're going to speak to them about maybe going forward with them helping with some sort of training we don't know what capacity yet it's something we're going to speak to them about next year but maybe either do a video of our experience that can be played to officers or for us to actually go in we don't know yet but we have said we are prepared to work with them. And we also know that Humberside Police at this moment are actually using Gracie's case and Gracie's story within their training. So, yeah, it's baby steps at the moment. But, you know, we want to make a national change. The statement from the Deputy Chief Constable, Simon Blatchley, said we've received the prevent prevention of future deaths report from the coroner which concluded last month following the inquest

into the death of Gracie Spinks and was said following the conclusion of the inquest we fully accept there were significant failings throughout the two incidents relating to Gracie we will now review the recommendations that have been made and reply within the relevant time frame it carries on

and concludes with saying, I also want to reiterate the force's sincere apologies to the family, friends and wider community. Just wanted to give you the chance, we got a bit of an idea at the beginning of our conversation, but just for you to tell us really how to think of your daughter, how to remember your daughter. Alison, what would you say?

How to remember her. So much. Yeah, just absolutely full of life. And she packed so much in into 23 years, let me tell you. But she got so much more that she wanted to do. And she was saving for a deposit for a house. And a horse was a her passion she absolutely loved paddy she just lived and breathed for a horse she loved family time just all being together

as a family family holidays she'd rather have like a family holiday with us and her auntie and her uncle rather than sort of girly holidays with friends, you know, very family orientated. She's just a young girl at the beginning of her adult life with great aspirations and dreams to fulfil and full of enthusiasm with everything she did. She was so talented, a brilliant singer, piano player singer piano player artist drawer great with people everybody loved her that met her and wanted to meet her again she just had a radiance and a light

about her that just shone through and um it's just a sad loss to the world isn't it yeah it's absolutely just ripped our heart out it's ripped the family to pieces. We'll never, ever, ever get over this. It's just left such a massive hole. You know, you can't ever tell. And if we can make a little bit of difference and save other people's lives through Gracie's death, then something would have come out, you know,

something really good and ongoing would have come out of such a terrible tragedy. Richard Spinks, Alison Ward, a huge thank you for talking to us this morning. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you, Emma. All the best. Thank you. I'm sure I will have really struck a chord with you. Many of that, many of the things that you've just heard there and taking that in is important. Richard Spinks there and Alison Ward. Thank you for getting in touch this morning as we've been discussing.

As I say, I'm sure some reactions will come into that as you digest what you've just been listening to and the importance of that. We've talked many times about police and we've talked about women's safety. But it's important to put at the heart of a story like that, the family, the parents there, and also the wider ramifications of what didn't happen in that. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Okay, so looking across the rest of the programme now, you've been getting in touch on a range of issues.

We'll be coming to talk about some of the issues in Hong Kong. We'll also be talking about education in Afghanistan. And we're also going to be talking about how we speak to each other, perhaps as women, around our working patterns and our lives and how that all comes together because of what my next guest, who's just joined me in the studio, has said.

She said the following, there is an expectation that women like me, without children, will pick up the slack so that the working mums can have time off with their families. Those are the words of Sam Walsh, who's worked every Boxing Day, I believe, for the last 20 years. She decided to quit her retail job in October because she resented having to work over the Christmas period. Sam, who also runs the Non-Mum Network Facebook group and website,

it's also on other social media platforms, says working parents shouldn't be given the priority. And some of you have got some strong views on this, which are already coming in. She joins me now. Good morning, Sam. Good morning, Emma. Thank you so much for having me on. Thanks for coming. Now, this all started in a, well, it didn't all start there, but you put it out there in a newspaper article. I believe it went out in the Daily Mail. And why did you feel you wanted to share this, first of all? Well, first of all, I mean, childless people just in general, just aren't really represented in society.

You know, we're quite a sort of silent, hidden demographic. And we kind of feel like obviously we are very much in the minority. We're kind of only really about 18 percent of the population. So overwhelmingly, people do become parents in their lifetime. So obviously, it's understandable that their voice is louder. But, you know, we are we're still people and we still have our own families and our time is, we feel is just as important as a parent's time. And we just kind of would like to be

respected accordingly, really. And in your retail job, I know you got to a level of manager and that perhaps is relevant in a minute, but would you always be able to get time off when you wanted or did you feel like there was a priority here? I mean, I tried to really be as fair as possible. And I really did bend over backwards for parents wherever I possibly could.

So, you know, obviously we understand, you know, mums would like to have the school holidays off, particularly like in August, you know. So we would try and make it as fair as possible. But I did always feel like there was this kind of pressure to make sure the mums had priority in a lot of ways. And even if, you know, they did sort of, we would put them on the voter, sometimes they wouldn't always turn up. So, yeah, there was definitely a pressure to give priority to the parents.

And you don't think that should be the case? No, I don't think so. I think everyone's time is equally as valuable. And, yeah, we all deserve to have our own time accordingly, really. There are many messages along these lines. There's an anonymous email here which says, for years I tolerated those colleagues who had children, yet when I was caring for my elderly relatives, there was no flexibility.

Even the two days I took for my father's funeral was put down as unpaid leave, while colleagues with children was always covered. There's another message here. It's not just childless mums affected. In our busy GP practice, our colleagues with children are never available to deal with emergencies at closing time as they have to get to nursery and school

and don't appear to be able to make alternative arrangements, as I did when my kids were growing up. And another yes as a childless not by choice woman I've spent years watching parents have the odd paid hour here or there for sports days assemblies and concerts and I agree that this is the right way to support parents in the workplace however childless and child free there is a distinction some would draw have lives too and our requests are often turned down and not considered as important. I just want fairness in the workplace but if we raise it, it's seen as bitterness, jealousy or sour grapes. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean it needs to be a two-way street, you know, we're absolutely happy to cover for you, we understand, you know, your

children obviously are the most important thing in your life but it just needs to be a two-way street, you know, can you cover for us too? Can there be that, you know, that give and take on both sides? We feel like when we do ask parents to do overtime or to cover for us, they're just very much, they're often not willing to or not available to do that, to sort of make it a two-way street. That's kind of, yeah, that is often how we do feel. And although a lot of mums say, oh, you know, it's it's only occasionally it's only occasion this happens and it's an emergency but obviously

if 82 percent of the population are parents and only 18 percent aren't then what the odd day for you feels like a huge burden for us because we're carrying the 18 percent is carrying the 82 percent odd day here and there so it might only be occasionally for each mum but obviously the cumulative effect of that is it becomes a lot for for the childless and often the childless already feel that they're kind of less less than because that's kind of how you you might be made to feel or like you say there is that distinction between childless and child free so if you're childless you didn't decide to become you didn't decide not to be a parent it was something that's kind of either happened to you through circumstance you might not have met the right person or in my case it was infertility so I tried you know for years to have a child I had

three failed attempts at IVF I really wanted to be to be a parent I'm sorry um oh thank you um but if you're child free then obviously you've chosen that path. But either way, you know, we just want equality, really. We just want to be valued. But if you are child less, you often have to battle with your own sense of low self-esteem, you know. So then when parents kind of say or imply that your time isn't worth as much, it's just that extra kick that you will, you know, you already feel down about it. And I think that's why sometimes we do overcompensate by then doing, because people said to me,

you're the manager, why were you doing that? Well, I wanted to help the mums, you know, and probably I did overcompensate for a long time where I felt like people, I don't want people to think that I'm bitter or selfish or it is sour grapes, you know, because it isn't, you know, obviously it's hurt me deeply, but I, you know, I don't want to take it away from anybody else, you know because it isn't you know obviously it's hurt me deeply but I you know I don't want to take it away from anybody else you know but um yeah and actually there was a poll on mumsnet

and someone did say you know am I being unreasonable to think this is just a case of sour grapes and I was actually pleasantly surprised when someone sent me the link to see that it was almost 50 50 and actually even quite a lot of the mums did support me you know and I did go on there and create a profile Sour Sammy I called myself because they said I was sour and replied to them and actually when you talk to people on an individual level people are generally much nicer but obviously there is this kind of herd mentality and if we are in the minority like that you just do feel shouted down a lot and that's why people don't tend to speak up so much

i mean it is not something people tend to talk about that much i do remember i looked it up again this morning um another uh another woman talking about this actually a few years ago and and saying you know i'm really putting my head above the parapet here yeah and her conclusion was we do need bosses and employers to take the lead on this and you know you just alluded to the fact being a manager, you were overcompensating sometimes at times, but it's not something that we do see a lot of leadership on, is it? No, and this is the thing. And also, I've found that since the pandemic, especially, we're running on skeleton staff a lot of the time, you know, so then if one person does drop out, the whole team really feels it because there's not enough of you in the first place. So, you you know if the employers took more responsibility for and

have factored in the fact that mums are going to need to be off you know there will be emergencies or not just the mums but you know in general you just had if there wasn't such a pressure on us in the first place to be running on so few staff it wouldn't be such a crisis if one person did then let you down um and you know this is not to pitch mums versus non-mums you know what i would like to find is a solution do you worry that that has happened though in the process of doing this for instance um there is this point about women should you know regarding working mums women with children should redirect their grievances towards their employers if they feel unfairly treated parents are legally responsible

for the welfare of the children last week my, my son had an accident. My daughter had a scheduled hospital appointment. I work full time and I've clocked up over eight hours of time off work. My work has been supported, but no one's then done my work for me and I'll have to make up the time. And then this message, which is sort of related, in relation to your item on the woman who's fed up of parents getting different conditions at work, whatever the circumstances of her not having children, she isn't in a position of raising the next generation and having children it's been one of the great joys of my life but I know it's not for everyone however it's also meant the investment of a great deal of time and money and it has restricted my earning potential yeah so I mean that's of course you know they argue about choice we accept that but then that

you know they if you've chosen to be a parent, you know, kind of, we do feel a bit like, why do I have to pay the price of that? You know, why do I have to work all those unsociable hours? Or even outside of work, you know, I've constantly been text WhatsApps to do with some kind of crisis that had happened and the person that wouldn't be in the next day.

So it's not just during the working time, you know, the working day. It was absolutely constant. So, you know, we do support you in bringing up the next day. So it's not just during the working time, you know, the working day. It was absolutely constant. So, you know, we do support you in bringing up the next generation. And believe me, we feel like we're heavily involved in here because we are carrying a lot of it

for you to do that. We really are. Fiona says, I'm happy to support parents, but it's the entitlement from some of them that really great. I've never had paid time off for my hobbies and lifestyle choices. What would you say to that? Yeah, no, it's true. And if I, you know, if I did, you know, if you when you

sometimes if you said you wanted to be off for a particular thing, it'd be scoffed at, you know, anything that's not to do with children directly is kind of, you know, why would you need to you could do that anytime. And that's the thing as well. People perceive childless people as having all this time on their hands, you know, that you've got abundance of time and you're just so much more free. I mean, part of it, I think, is probably there could be a slight resentment towards us for that, that they've chosen to have children. And then they resent the fact that they haven't got as much free time or, you know, there is a touch of that as well. But also a lot of the women that I worked with, they were very, very part time, the mums. So obviously, I understand if you're full time.

Yes, that's going to be really difficult because you're trying to juggle everything and you're at work full-time. But a lot of the people in retail, the mums, are only working one or two days a week. So the full-timers, which are the childless ones most of the time, have been there all week and they're really desperate for their day off. And then you get towards that and then the mum lets you down on the one day she was supposed to be there. And that's why, you know, and then the rest of the team kind of says well what are you doing about this you know why are we all absolutely flat out to cover for the mums um and it looks like you're

not doing enough to support them and then you go to head office and they say oh well you know they're protected nothing we can do and when it goes on year after year you don't mind filling in but it's just that cumulative effect and the burden of it. Well, you're free of it now. You've left your job. Yes, I have. Is this the reason? It is. Yes, it is the reason. You've left your job in retail where you're a manager. Not purely to do with mums. It's not all to do with mums. It is the workload and then obviously not being supported by the employer to ensure you've got enough staff to accommodate the mums and whoever else might need to have time off. But yeah, it was that issue, which was a huge part of it for me because I just didn't feel supported when I did go to my employer and say, what can I, you know, how can we fix this? How can we resolve this?

And they would just literally say, you know, there's nothing we can do. They're parents, they they're supported they're protected rather um and you know and also i would like to see you know why isn't um sort of reproductive status a protected characteristic you know why is there no support or no protection for the childless why is it so heavily weighted towards the parents you know if a childless person was off sick the amount of times that i've you know deal with the mums not being there, there would be some kind of investigation. There'd be a disciplinary. You say you're interested in a solution.

Is this, I mean, I don't know what your future job plans are. Are you still going to go back to the workplace? Is that the plan? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I couldn't be off forever. Hopefully I've not made myself unemployable by doing this. No, no, I'm sure you've not.

I've saved up some money. So for a certain amount of time, I'll be fine. Do you want to actually keep going with this as some sort of campaign? Oh, yes. Yeah, I would like to. So what's the plan on that?

I would really love to be invited in by employers to sit down with their HR departments and talk about this issue. But isn't it all just going to come down to staffing levels? Is that sort of what you're saying here, that you've got enough staff in the system? That is a big part of it, yeah.

If there was enough staff in the first place, then it wouldn't be such a crisis. But then just supporting the childless people as well that may need to take time off for other things. And the appreciation of, you know, how much we do do would be nice. It's just we're just very much forgotten. And I did actually ask at my last employer, there's something called World Childless Week. And I did ask if we could put that on our intranet, for example. And they were kind of said, oh, you know, maybe next year. And maybe I had left it a little bit too late for the calendar, which is what their excuse was.

That's something that comes up every year in September. And I asked if I could get it on the intranet. Oh, maybe next year. It just felt very dismissive. And I had a meeting a couple of years ago, actually, with HR to talk about this. And I just felt dismissed. Nothing ever changed. In fact, it was actually because I'd taken two weeks off sick

with stress because it was an incident with a mum who was demanding to only work 10 till 2. She only had one day a week shift as it was. And she wanted to split that into two 10 till 2 shifts so that it suited her childcare and the school school hours which did not suit the business um that's the other kind of worms i suppose which politicians never seem to go towards which is the school day versus the work day yeah but sam you can't solve it all here on moments out this morning so you've you've laid out the light the lay of the land from perspective. You've definitely got a lot of people talking already

and more today, this morning. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you. And it's called the Non-Mum Network. Yeah, the Non-Mum Network. There you go. Dot com or dot co dot uk. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a good break. Thank you. Yeah, Merry Christmas to you as well. There you go. Another one here. Yes, I actually left a job because as a single person,

I could never have time off in summer or Christmas, reads this message. I put up with it for eight years and I eventually left a job because as a single person, I could never have time off in summer or Christmas, reads this message. I put up with it for eight years and I eventually left the legal firm. It's so unfair because of your status. You're treated like this. I'm so glad you're highlighting this. I thought it was only me. I have now retired, says Kim. And I'll come back to those messages if I can. We've got many coming in. But today, I did mention this right at the start, is the beginning of the Jimmy Lai trial in Hong Kong, a landmark national security case against a media tycoon and pro-democracy activist who's been accused of conspiring to collude with foreign forces. Outside of the court is the familiar face of a woman affectionately known as Grandma Wong, real name Alexandra, a pro-democracy protester in her late 60s who often holds a Union Jack flag. You may have seen an image of her.

She's done stints in jail. She wasn't seen for 14 months after the 2019 protests in Hong Kong against those plans to allow extradition to mainland China. Well, here she is. We just thought we'd play you a clip in 2020 when she was seen again for the first time speaking at a press conference. The voice of Grandma Wong, they're saying she'll keep fighting even though it means sacrifices have to be made.

As I mentioned this morning, staging a lone protest then outside that courthouse and was reported to be shouting, support Jimmy Lai. Cindy Yu is on the line, assistant editor of The Spectator, who presents the Chinese Whispers podcast. Good morning. Morning. What do we know about Grandma Wong that she's referred to?

Oh, she's just fantastic. She's totally defiant. She's 67. She's a breast cancer survivor. She was born in Hong Kong and moved, travelled for a bit in her 30s and has now moved back to China for a little bit and in Hong Kong now. And she has been seen at pretty much every protest since 2012. One of the lone older faces in what is usually a very, very young protest. And that's how she became got such a high profile. And she's just totally defiant because she has no kids of her own. She's getting on in her age anyway. And so she says, you know, you've already thrown me in jail three times.

What more can you do to me? I mean, which is incredible that she's gone through that, not because of her age, just because the reality of doing that and the risk that's associated with it. As you say, the majority of the protesters associated with this are often younger, under 30. Jimmy Lai, also, though, older, in his 70s, facing potentially the rest of his life in prison. She's out there protesting and is affectionately called grandma or grandmother. Why do you think? Because

of her age, but in that way, can you give us a bit of cultural context? Yeah, sure. I mean, this is a very Chinese kind of culture context in the sense that in China or in Hong Kong, any Chinese speaking society, you wouldn't call older generations by their first name or by their name at all. You would call them an auntie or grandma, uncle, whatever it is, you'd give them honorifics. So as I say, she has no children of her own. She's not a grandmother. But because she was there with loads of, you know, teenagers and 20 something year olds, they just said, you know, oneopo, you know, you're just the grandma. And so that's what she's been known as.

And actually, because she's been seen so often in these protests, outside government buildings, some of the security guards have even joked that there's a designated Grandma Wong protest zone because, you know, she's just relatively polite to the people that she meets, but she really goes for it when she protests and seems you know completely fearless as well yeah exactly and i think her one of her points is that older generations in hong kong can be a bit more fearless you know they they've they've lived the majority of their lives um they have these other young people to protect um they probably can't move anywhere else now. And so that's where

she's coming from and saying, you know, I have nothing to lose. You have nothing to lose. We need to all come out and protest. But that was said in an interview before the 2020 national security law, which has really changed a lot. Not necessarily for Grandma Wong, because she is still out there on the streets. But in terms of a chilling effect for protesters of all ages, the stakes of protesting now are much, much higher than they were three or four years ago. And so her call is becoming ever more lonely. Yes, and I suppose just reminding ourselves of that

as this trial begins is important to do because while she cuts this striking figure, who you aren't seeing is as important, I suppose, as who you are. Yes, exactly. And basically, ever since the national security law has been put in place, we've seen hundreds of protesters arrested. When they are charged, there's a 100% conviction rate. Not all of them are charged, but once they are convicted,

the sentences can range from a few days or a few weeks, charged as a 100% conviction rate. Not all of them are charged. But once they are convicted, the sentences can range from, you know, a few days or a few weeks, just a bit of a tap on the knuckles. Or they can be years, as Jimmy Lai is facing, he was the head of this, one of the most pro-democracy newspapers in Hong Kong, and they are accusing him of colluding with foreign forces. Others have basically been in exile. So in London, for example, we have Nathan Law, just gone to Canada is Agnes Chow, one of the other young people who has said that she's gone for her studies. But since she got into Canada, she said, I'm never coming back to Hong Kong. So basically, she escaped. And so you're facing exile, arrest, imprisonment, or the other option is just to stay silent. And it's an

incredibly effective law that they put in. And we are hearing actually that next year, Hong Kong might put in its own national security law, because the current national security law is a Chinese national security law. So if that brings into, if that comes into place, there are even more things that could be basically charged against and convicted for. And we should say after the images of her this morning, going back to Grandma Wong, Grandmother Wong, we don't know then what will have happened necessarily. Yeah, we don't know. I haven't seen anything to suggest that she has been arrested, although she was kind of shuffled, manhandled to the other side of the street from the courtroom. And I think we will have to see.

Basically, I think one of the strengths of this law is that actually a lot of the things that it targets are relatively arbitrary. And so it keeps you guessing. That allows the self-censorship to come because you don't really know how far they would go. And so you start self-censoring because you actually don't know where the red lines really are. And so we don't really know what's

happened to her this time round. But for now, it doesn't seem like she has been arrested just yet. Cindy, thank you very much for your analysis and some more context there. Assistant editor of Spectator magazine who presents the Chinese Whispers podcast. A message here, as a working parent going back to that discussion, I've never been paid off to be off work when my kids are sick. It's unpaid leave. Society will break down

if children aren't properly looked after. What did the child-free or the childless people suggest? And an acknowledgement of the poor childcare in this country needs to be made. What happens if a mum doesn't have anyone else to support the child? And another one though,

thank God somebody else has kicked off about the sense of entitlement to time off or knocking off early that working parents have. I was genuinely starting to think it was just me who had a problem. Just a quick note though, it's no way confined to working women. It's everywhere all of the time. Well, it's been more than two years since the Taliban seized power in Afghanistan. And since then, an increasingly repressive regime has restricted education in the country. We've looked at what those changes mean for Afghan girls,

with Afghanistan the only place in the world where girls are not allowed to attend school beyond primary age, and we will continue to do so. It is incredibly shocking. But according to a new report, the Taliban's education system is failing boys too. A report from the Human Rights Watch accuses the Taliban of causing what they term irreversible damage to the schooling of a whole generation, both girls and boys.

I spoke to Saha Fetrat, the author of this report, who grew up in the Afghan school system herself, and began by asking her why she sees boys boys education as something that impacts women. I believe that, you know, the kind of education that these boys get in a country in a situation where half of the population, I mean, half of the students who are female, who are girls, cannot get an education and boys can. It's interesting to look into what they actually learn and what kind of indoctrination, if any, or what kind of learning they are getting at school. And the kind of men that they will become in the future will have serious implications and impacts on women's rights and human rights in Afghanistan. And actually, the education they're getting has suffered greatly. Absolutely.

Because of the Taliban's discriminatory laws and, you know, bans that, for example, from the dismissal of female teachers, boys are greatly impacted because they had, for grades between 10 to 12, which is very important. These years are very important before the university entrance exams. For subjects like chemistry, biology, physics, they had female teachers

and these female teachers have been dismissed. And so in many instances, boys don't have a teacher or they have a male teacher who is teaching the primary school or teaching in some provinces male community worker is brought to teach these subjects and that's just one part of it there is a disturbing rise on the use of corporate punishment at school and for for things like having a kind of hairstyle that resembles Western style to the Taliban

or clothing that is about having a shirt or a pant, having mobile phone, having any music on the phone. And the way it happens is also, you know, in a way very scary because they punish their students violently with like foot whipping or cutting their hair in the morning assembly in front of everyone. So to send the message across and to discipline boys. But does that mean that boys don't want to then go into school? Absolutely. And that's the next point that I was going to, because boys told us that they have a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety to go to school. And they just don't feel that passion, that interest to go to school and to learn and to make friends and to get that kind of social learning because of this kind of treatment from the Taliban. And, you know, there are boys told us that many of their classmates had to leave school because their families left the humanitarian crisis and it has a huge impact on them. And it kind of forces some of the boys to go to

child labor, to work outside. And overall, the anxiety and the depression they're facing in a context where there is not a proper understanding of mental health consequences or even services available. It's just dangerous and scary. And I just wanted to, when I was looking into this topic, I was looking at how a country that is in 2023 is banning half of its population from getting an education and getting an education that is discriminatory, that is having negative impacts to the half of its population, all the children. That kind of a country is dangerous for itself and is dangerous for other countries. Yeah, because the education that at least the boys are in, quote-unquote, allowed to have, from what you're saying,

and I know you spoke to 22 children and their families compiling this report, it's not worth having for a lot of them, or they're not even going in. So you're ending up with a generation of girls who aren't allowed, women who aren't allowed to teach, or largely work anymore, and boys who aren't going in or receiving the education that they should. And that's a terrifying situation. Yes, absolutely. And that is about harming the whole education system, which means harming the future of Afghanistan, which means taking that opportunity of having a better future from all the children from Afghanistan. You have experience of this education system. What was your experience? And it sounds like you obviously had some education and it was a different time in the country. Yes, I grew up in Kabul and I went to a public school, which is unlike what the Taliban are claiming, saying that schools, they don't have proper infrastructure or system in place to have safe, you know, education for girls alone and boys alone. It was separated. I was in girls' school.

There were some problems with any country, with the education system. There are things that you agree with, there are things that are helpful and there are things that are not. But overall, it was exciting. I couldn't imagine not going to school one day, especially when I was in the secondary school level.

You know, that was... Well, it's a time you hope, filled with hope. Absolutely. And what you can do with the world. Yes. And you make friends and you learn about yourself, about, you know, all the learning that happens outside home. All the friendships, all the, you know, the way you look at the world, your worldview is being shaped at that place. And school is a great place to have that because you have people from different backgrounds, people from different views. And, you know, you're

all in the same classroom and you have to learn or unlearn together. Do you have any hope? I mean, we should say you obviously left the country. In what circumstances and how long ago? Well, I came to the UK for a master's degree and that was the year for my education, actually. So that was the year that Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and I couldn't go back. Which, you know, I can't imagine how difficult that is, but you are now doing this work and trying to shine a light on the country that's yours and that you feel is yours and you want to be a different place from what it is. Do you have any hope at the moment about what could be the future when it comes to education, young people and girls as well as the boys? Yes, to me, hope is a way of resistance. And, you know, I know that sometimes it seems grim, sometimes the image is really dark, and you can't, but hope is a long term work. And, you know, just to, to, to have, to, to see an impact, you need to be hopeful, and you need to

work. And that's why I work with the women's rights division you know this is not my direct way of you know area of work to look at boys education the reason I'm looking at it from this perspective is that it's because I have hope and I want to use the platform that I have to see to show to the people how different policies and practices that are discriminatory are impacting all people. Can you show something like this to the rulers there, those in charge, to the Taliban, to the government? I think it's more about the Taliban. I think they know what they're doing. They are intentional about it.

For me, the impact is when people know, when people know that it's, even if families are patriarchal, even if families are, which, you know, is a reality in Afghanistan when there is misogyny in the families as well. When they understand, I think the problem is that most people believe

that it's just impacting girls or women and that's it. But are you trying to influence with this the international community or are you trying to do this domestically as well? I think it's a whole, I think it's everyone. My audience is everyone. The international community, the donors, the people who are engaging with Afghanistan in any way. Those who have an impact in terms of, you know, talking to the Taliban or putting pressure on them. But also it's people of Afghanistan to know that, you know, what's actually happening to their country and to their people

and to their children and to their future. Saha Fritjof out there from Human Rights Watch. Many messages coming in about our discussion around who gets to get leave whenever they need it, parents versus those without children. Julia says, I see that your guest has a point. That was Sam who was on earlier. I agree she's been treated unfairly,

but I also feel in our society we sometimes talk about having children as it's an individual indulgence. It isn't. The children of today are the doctors, carers, builders, and bin men and women, adding that in, of tomorrow. Without them, nothing would work. People who have children just don't have them for themselves. They have them for the whole of society. The childless and the child-free need doctors too. And so it goes on. A similar point here, that it shouldn't be women against each other. It should be a change to the system. Let's not do this. Another one, I don't have children, but I've always been more than happy to work for those with children who could have time off. Children thrive when a parent can make a school play or be there when they are sick. Come on, sisters, lean in and share that childcare burden. But there's also saying you could be doing it in a less entitled way. There we go.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. To know what it means to be Roman, you need to look beyond the sweating gladiators. There are fresh stories to be told from scattered clues and new discoveries. I'm Mary Beard, and I'll be uncovering these stories for Being Roman,

a new series for BBC Radio 4. There's a young bride avenging the murder of her parents and an emperor flirting outrageously with his nervous teacher. Listen to Being Roman wherever you get your podcasts. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.