Woman's Hour - Grandparents providing childcare, Kate Griffiths MP's barrister Charlotte Proudman; Under pressure - Fibromyalgia

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

The company SAGA has decided to give employees who've just become grandparents some special leave. They say it's about helping new grandparents celebrate but also it's to highlight how important older workers are, not just to the company but to families and wider society. So if you're a grandparent providing childcare for your kids, what's the cost? What does it take out of you, time-wise and energy wise? How much are you saving your kids? And do you see it as a precious thing you’ll never have the chance to do again, or after a while is it too much pressure? We hear from one of our listeners Linda who looks after two of her grandchildren and Shireen Kanji, a Professor of Work and Organisation at Brunel University.New Covid measures are being introduced across the UK, because of the threat posed by the Omicron variant. In England it's known as Plan B, and mandates mask-wearing, working from home and Covid passports. However, around 75 Conservative MPs are expected to rebel as it's put to a vote in the House of Commons on Tuesday. As parliament debates these new restrictions, where do you stand on taking personal responsibility for containing the virus, and how will it affect your Christmas? To discuss, Emma is joined by Guardian journalist Lucy Mangan and Lucy Fisher, Deputy Political Editor at The Telegraph. In November 2020 a family court found that the conservative MP Kate Griffiths' then husband, Andrew Griffiths (also a former conservative MP for the same Staffordshire seat and former Conservative minister) raped her in her sleep, abused & coercively controlled her. These were civil proceedings, so the finding was based on the balance of probabilities, rather than the criminal standard of probable doubt. As is the norm in family cases, this information was private and not made public. But following a successful application by journalists, supported by Kate Griffiths - the details of this case, with both parties' names attached, were published last Friday. In the recent judgement, judges from the Court of Appeal referred to the ‘mother's right to tell her story.’ Andrew Griffiths has denied allegations made by his ex-wife and ‘adamantly denied’ rape. Dr Charlotte Proudman, the barrister who represented Kate Griffiths joins Emma.The next in our series Under Pressure which looks at what happens to relationships when life gets in the way. Carla and Brendon met at school. Their lives looked to be on track and then everything changed when Carla was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Jo Morris reports.The nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2021 have been revealed. There have been 66 recipients of the award, but only 13 of these have been women. Anna Kessel, Women’s Sports Editor at The Telegraph talks to Emma about the women on the shortlist and who is favourite to win.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Another Monday and another Prime Minister's TV address. Well, we hadn't had one of those for quite a while, but last night Boris Johnson missed a very busy TV viewing schedule, what with the I'm a Celebrity final and the latest round of Strictly Come Dancing's results. Boris Johnson launched his new drive to get the booster jab into

the arm of every UK adult by the end of the month. That's a million shots a day. Today in England begins the work from home guidance and the start of personal responsibility, which the Prime Minister was also urging last night. Do what is right. As women, rightly or wrongly, still tend to manage a lot of the diaries in people's lives, not least their own Christmas arrangements for themselves, their friends, their families. Also being those people often in people's social groups that they're turned to and said, what should we do? What are you doing? Let me ask you that. Where are you coming out of this? Are you changing any plans? Are you not visiting a family member that was in the diary before Christmas or perhaps at Christmas? Or are you keeping everything the

same? Safe in the knowledge everyone will have their booster jab around you, building on the jabs they already have. Or does not play a role? Perhaps everything's staying the same and it's nothing to do with the vaccination at all. All of this I would like to hear and more. We've actually talked quite a bit about why some people in your life haven't been jabbed. So it's not all going to be linked to that if things are staying the same. Get in touch with me here at Woman's Hour by texting 84844. Has anything changed in the last 24 hours or so since hearing from the Prime Minister, or just before that, of course, as our levels changed in this country and awareness of the Omicron variant has continued to grow?

Or are things staying the same? Social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email me through our website. Do let me know. And as a growing number of female Conservative MPs, the so-called rebels gear up for tomorrow's votes on the Prime Minister's new Covid restrictions. They'll include vaccine passports for large gatherings, compulsory face masks in more places and people being asked to work from home where they can, but told they can still go to parties. Why are they rebelling? Who are they? And what's their main argument? We'll try and get a flavour of that. Also on today's programme, grandparents. You know, speaking of how we make our lives run and how lots of people have to make their lives run. The silent army of carers. Do you deserve more recognition? A particular move by a particular company last week sparked a debate about this. Love or loathe looking after your grandchildren quite as much as you do? You don't have to give your real name. This is your space to share. And she can do no wrong. Just mentioned there in the

news bulletin, we're talking about the BBC Sports Personality of the Year Award. Emma Raducanu, the tennis superstar, top of the list in a lot of people's minds, the hot favourite to win BBC Sports Personality of the Year. Yes, she can do no wrong when she's playing tennis a lot of the time, but

apparently she's still being told off by her parents, she revealed this weekend in an interview. We'll get the latest on that particular list and where perhaps her chances are. But first, new Covid measures are being introduced across the UK because of the threat posed by the Omicron variant, known as Plan B. In England, certainly it mandates mask wearing, working from home and Covid passports. That's the vote tomorrow in the Commons. But around 75 Conservative MPs are expected to rebel. That could differ, of course. These are just estimations at the moment. There's also some bracing, I believe, or it's reported, I should say, for some resignations in terms of those who wish to rebel,

but are personal parliamentary secretaries and can't if they are in those jobs. So we'll see how the day pans out. But as Parliament debates these new restrictions, you are letting me know where you are on this and how your plans may or may not be changing. And I'll message straight in here to say our plans are staying the same, but doing natural flow tests before meeting anyone outside of our home.

And I'm now asking others to do the same before visiting us. Pauline says I'm shopping very early so it's quiet and having very small meet-ups as planned. As long as I can get to see my daughter this year, I am happy. Catherine, we have a Ruby wedding celebration booked in at a restaurant in London on Saturday for 22 people but I'm feeling very anxious about whether to go ahead with this or not. Two guests have already cancelled of all the weeks to be having it,

with an exclamation point at the end. Well, let's discuss the personal and the political and how the two often meet. I'm going to talk to The Guardian journalist shortly, Lucy Mangan. But first, I'm going to talk to the deputy political editor at The Telegraph, Lucy Fisher. Good morning, Lucy Fisher. Good morning, Emma. The list of rebels from the political side of this is put at around Political Editor at The Telegraph, Lucy Fisher. Good morning, Lucy Fisher. Good morning, Emma. The list of rebels from the political side of this is put at around 75 or so.

Tell us about the makeup of those and actually where the women come out and how many women there are. Well, about 15% of that list so far publicly vowing to rebel are women. So 11 women in total. And what's really interesting is that it's an alliance of some of the more long-standing, outspoken MPs with ministerial experience behind them, people like Esther McVey, a former pension secretary, Tracy Crouch, a former minister, Jackie Doyle-Price, a former health minister, but also a lot of the 2019 newer MPs who've also found their voice as rebels, despite their inexperience and despite traditionally younger, newer MPs waiting for preferment, hoping for jobs in future and tending to keep their counsel. So we've got Deanna Davison, who's become one of the most high profile Red Wall MPs to be elected in 2019. Nazghani and Alicia Kearns, both of whom have been outspoken on China issues and human rights abuses in Xinjiang.

Siobhan Bailey, Miriam Cates. So it's a really interesting group. I should say, if I just may at the moment, we tried many of them this morning. None were available. Very difficult group of women to pin down. I'm very grateful you're available. And of course, just before you do vote against your own government, you're not always up for talking about it. So I'm sorry to ask you this, but do we know why they do not think these sorts of measures are a good idea? Because I don't suspect they'll be completely uniform in their thinking. Well, I think that's right. Some people like Jackie Dore Price have voted against all Covid measures this year, are very sceptical of some of the restrictions. I think some people have more targeted reasons.

Siobhan Bailey, one of the one of the 2019ers, has said on Twitter that working from home and masks have personal health and financial cost implications. And she said in particular about COVID passports, which is generating this biggest revolt, that it creates more problems than it solves by forcing people to carry papers. It's discriminatory potentially is the implication there. And she also says a very common thing from some of the rebels, that there is no evidence pointing to the fact that many countries across Europe have had Covid passports for months and they haven't seen any difference in the spread of Covid. So in terms of the, I suppose the issue there is then if they are sending that sort of message, what it then does on whether people in the public, not least of course building on a slew of stories about Downing Street parties last Christmas, actually think they have to do with their own personal behaviour? Well, I think that's right. And certainly some of the MPs who have vowed to

rebel tomorrow have also been outspoken about the Downing Street party allegations. I think in particular of Anne-Marie Morris, someone who last week sort of said that Downing Street and the Prime Minister's staff had made a blatant error and she'd just come out and apologise for having clearly had a party. She said that in the wake of the Allegra Stratton video emerging. She has come out and sort of said, you know, the impact on her constituents of the new restrictions is intolerable. I think there is a sense that certainly many Conservatives feel emboldened to join the revolts tomorrow because they feel the government's credibility has been undermined by the many allegations now. I think there are about eight parties claimed to have taken place in November and December last year against the rules.

And we expect some kind of insight on that by the end of the week with various reviews taking place. Perhaps we'll talk again. Just on the number of women, so-called rebels, tomorrow that we expect, it has always been a smaller group than the men in the Conservatives, the sort of sceptics in this Covid time. Is that proportionate with the number of women there are to men in the Conservative Party? Or what do you put that reticence down if it isn't? It's a really good question. Actually, so far, the women who've come out publicly is lower than the proportion of women in the Conservative Party. What I would caution is that we may yet see a bigger female total tomorrow when it comes to it. One thing we haven't touched on yet is the fact that there is a threat

that several parliamentary private secretaries, people who aren't on the payroll but are still on the first rung of the government, acting as aides to ministers. Several of those women are threatening to resign or at least being thought possible that they could resign. Angela Richardson and Michael Gove's PPS is one. People are watching Sarah Dines. The Prime Minister's PPS is another person people think could potentially come out tomorrow, although hasn't declared either way. So it could be that people are keeping their counsel, still making their final decision. So I think we shouldn't judge the final tally yet just on those who've come out and been vocal. We will see. But just in the line, is it expected to go through even with these rebellions? It is. It is indeed because

Labour are set to back it. But it is shaping up to be the largest backbench revolt of Boris Johnson's career. Just for context, the largest revolt so far was last December on the tiered restrictions when 54 Tory MPs voted against it. We know tomorrow there will be at least 74 Tories voting against it. So that really is a seismic jump in a rebellion. But not enough to potentially stop those going ahead. We shall see, as I keep saying, 24 hours, even 12 hours a long time in British politics at the moment. Lucy Fisher, thank you very much to Deputy Political Editor at The Telegraph, Lucy Mangan from The Guardian,

to talk to us, of course, I'm sure, in a bit more also of a personal capacity. How are you about Christmas? Any plans changing? We're getting many messages from people genuinely divided on what to do. We've not changed anything so far, but only because we're already quite minimal

and we try and be ahead of the government because we have so little trust in their genuine concern for our health and safety. So we try to keep it as small as possible all along. And if things become worse, if Omicron really starts taking over and people haven't got their boosters or something, then we'll think again. But at the moment, we'll all COVID test and then we'll drive down from Norfolk, see my parents.

Yes. Just the three of us, my husband, me, my 10-year-old, my sister will isolate and come from Devon and we'll hopefully do it because we didn't see them last year. We chose not to do Christmas last year, even though we were technically allowed, because we figured that if lockdown was going to start two days later or whatever it was, then it should probably start as soon as we could bear to. So we had no christmas last year

and my parents are quite old and not terribly well and so that does become that more of a weight this year than it was last year so so we're currently at the stage where we're going to have christmas uh in a minimal way but we'll we'll see and we'll have to again take our own advice as much as the government's because who can trust them? I think it's interesting. I remember you and I talking throughout the first few parts of lockdown actually and it being a very emotional time because you did keep pre-empting what the government was going to do next.

You talked, I cried. Huh? Say again, Lucy. Yeah, you talked, I cried. You talked, I cried. You talked, I cried. It was very emotional indeed. And, you know, I say that with huge feeling because you kept, as you sort of seem to be doing now, and I'm seeing this in a few of the messages, trying to sort of see what was best for you and you're not necessarily waiting for the government. But I think it's striking that a lot of people, yourself included, this year, because of last year, can't afford to not see people this year, see family members. So perhaps they're going to cut down on seeing anyone else in advance of that. Yes, I think everyone, most people have this idea,

you know, this sense that it is sensible because it is just common sense that if you want to do, you sort of have a budget for covid exposure don't you and and obviously as christmas comes you concentrate all of that on that one or two or three days with your family and you're i mean i'm not going to i've got there was a there's a dinner i'd love to go with various friends um a week before but i'm not going to that because I don't feel it will be safe enough. And I'll just keep myself pure for the family. I think that's a very striking way of putting it. You are a woman who has a way with words.

Lucy Mangan, thank you very much for coming to talk to us today. Perhaps we'll catch up again on how it plays out and what goes on, the Guardian journalist and author Lucy Mangan there. We have a budget of who we can see and the exposure. And how are you spending yours? A message here saying one person's got in touch on Instagram saying they aren't changing their plans. The government have lost all credibility. I will continue washing my hands.

And another says they're still going home and just going to get their booster just in time. Rosie says she's pregnant, has a planned C-section after Christmas and is doing everything she can to stay Covid-free. Melissa says she's seeing fewer people, especially big groups of people like at Christmas parties. And Sophie says, quote, regardless of whatever guidance the government picks out of its hat, I'll be using my own common sense for my Christmas plans this year. Keep your messages coming in. Anything changing with you? Are you making the call? 84844. What are you basing it on? Do let me know. Now, an extraordinary case revealed on Friday afternoon. In November 2020, a family court found that the Conservative MP, Kate Griffith's ex-husband, Andrew Griffith,

also a former Conservative MP for the same Staffordshire seat and former Conservative minister, raped her in her sleep, abused and coercively controlled her. As is the norm in family cases, family court cases, this information was private and not made public. But following a successful application by journalists and an unsuccessful appeal by Mr Griffiths, the details of this case with both Kate and Andrew Griffiths' names attached, were published on Friday. In the recent judgment, judges from the Court of Appeal referred to, quote, the mother's right to tell her story. Well, Andrew Griffiths has denied allegations made by his ex-wife and, quote, adamantly denied rape.

You may also recall Andrew Griffiths resigned from the Conservative government in 2018 after sending text messages of a sexual nature to two female constituents. Dr Charlotte Proudman is the barrister who represented Kate Griffiths. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Could you first give us a brief explanation of how we got to this point and where details of this case have been published? Yeah, so what happened is there was a fact-fine hearing, which is like a trial, and that took place last November in the family court in Derby. And during this trial, it was a usual sort of rape domestic abuse trial, where his lawyer would put to Kate Griffiths MP that she's not telling the truth, she's lying, why didn't she report this,

why didn't she do anything about it, to which Kate rightly responded, well he's an MP and he told me that nobody would believe me and we know that this is something that we hear quite often in abuse cases that no one will believe victims and so that's why they don't report it and following that trial which Kate was cross-examined for a day and a half and no doubt found the whole process re-victimizing re-traumatizing because let's face it it is a very abusive process and can be really harmful but nevertheless she came out of it and she got findings of rape while she was asleep in addition that he had domestically abused her such as physically assaulting her when she was nine months pregnant with their child,

putting his hands around her throat, being verbally abusive to her, getting her and continuing the pattern of coercive control throughout the relationship and also post separation. These are extraordinarily upsetting details and details that have only, as I mentioned, come to light through the campaigning of journalists? Yes, that's right. So we had the fact-finding, we had all that information, which was found to be true, all of the facts. And then two journalists extraordinarily made an application to the family court and they said they wanted to report this decision. They said it was important that this decision was reported because it might give other women hope and would maybe even encourage them to come forward and would understand the workings of the family justice system

when it's dealing with some of the most serious allegations. Because as you've rightly mentioned, family proceedings are in private. So it's very rare to know what happens behind closed doors. Yes. I mean, you mentioned there, and as I mentioned in my introduction, Andrew Griffiths has denied these allegations. These were civil proceedings in a family court. The finding wasn't based on the criminal evidential level, finding on the balance of probabilities rather than the criminal standard of probable doubt.

Did Kate want this in the public domain? She is an MP. Yeah, no, she absolutely did. And that was an enormous part of the process. That was something that the court placed great emphasis on, quite rightly so. What Kate said is that she had a right to self-determination and a right to self-identification.

She had the right to tell her story. And she wanted to use her extraordinary platform as a powerful woman, as a member of parliament, to champion other victims of domestic abuse. She meets women in her constituency all the time that have been through the family courts, and she wanted to be able to say to them, I understand. Yes, because I did mention again, also in my introductions, there's quite a lot of detail here to navigate. But Andrew Griffiths was a minister and he resigned that position after a, I believe it was a Sunday Mirror report, which said he'd been sending explicit sexual messages to two women in his constituency.

And she then, Kate, then went and ran for his seat or what was his seat, which actually wasn't the only woman to do so, actually, in that election, but just as an additional detail. She now becoming a public figure and becoming a public advocate, she has actually, prior to us knowing any of this, been talking about domestic violence and women's rights. And I suppose it's just part of an extraordinary tale, if I could put it like that, that is her real life. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she ran when she stood as an MP on a platform saying, I'm a victim of domestic abuse and I want to support other victims. And that was all the information that she gave at that time. And you're right. It's important to remember that when Andrew

Griffiths was raping his wife behind closed doors, he was a minister. He was championing bills such as the upskirting bill. He was supporting initiatives around women's rights and yet was doing this to his wife behind closed doors. If a powerful man can do this, anybody can. And haven't we learned anything from Me Too about holding men accountable? And that's part of making sure that this judgment is published so that, you know, Kate is an MP and continuing their separation. She continued to suffer post-separation coercive control, which shows that anyone can, no matter how powerful you are or how poor you are. You know, I represent women from all walks of life, women with no recourse to public funds, women who are millionaires,

and they all have one thing in common. They are victims of domestic abuse, and it cuts across various different backgrounds. I was just going to say in terms, I mean, of course, as I have said, but I'll say again, he continues to deny these allegations. Where is their case up to now this has been made public? Because it's been made public a long

time after yes i mean he might continue to deny them but i think that says an awful lot about andrew griffiths because the court has found this um they've said that it's more likely than not that he did these things to her some of most heinous things but you know the case is not over far from it the family court despite making findings of rape and as i said abuse towards the child the family court ordered supervised contact so that contact continues in a supervised contact center with andrew griffiths even after the findings are made and not only that kate as a rape victim has to subsidize her rapist contact costs. So there is a cost incurred for supervised contact. So you have to have someone present to watch what's going on to

make sure it's safe. She has to pay half of that, which I think is inexplicable. It is nothing more than abuse that's ordered by the family court. So we appealed that decision and we are waiting for the outcome, but the proceedings very much continue. And sorry, to what end? So it will be to finalise their personal arrangements and then also this particular appeal you mentioned? Yes, so it will be to finalise the appeal and it will be ultimately for a final decision to be made about whether Mr Griffiths is safe to have contact with the child and if so what sort of contact can be ordered and one needs to also take into account the impact that any contact would have upon Kate as a victim and having to facilitate that contact and take her

child to contact with someone who she knows loses their temper. Dr Charlotte Pryman just finally I know you've got to go and keep fighting these sorts of cases. We've spoken about this sort of thing before, these areas, these women before that you represent. And I know you're speaking on behalf of your clients of the MP Kate Griffiths today in this extraordinary case to us, which is very important too here.

But what impact do you think this particular lifting of the veil around the family court could have? I mentioned that one of the judges from the Court of Appeal referred to the right, to the mother's right to tell her story. I know that there are many other women that are going through this in the family court that effectively feel that they've been gagged. They feel that they've been silenced in a way that Kate described, being silenced in the relationship and then that silence continuing in the family courts and not being able to say anything that's happened within that proceedings. And I hope that potentially it could result in more women seeking the right to self-determination, seeking the right to be able

to say what has happened in the family courts. And I also want to see, and I know Kate does, the law changed. She wants to see a presumption of no contact in cases with an abusive parent for contact. And I fully support that. And I think that's right that that happens. Dr Charlotte Prowman, thank you very much. In terms of your messages this morning, many coming through about what's going on in your personal lives with regards to the pandemic and planning and Christmas and trust in the government. But I have to say a lot of you also getting in touch about our next discussion, which I mentioned right at the start, because throughout the programme, yes, we've been talking about your choices with regards to how you arrange family and friends. But a lot of those choices day to day for a lot of you would not be possible without the silent army of carers otherwise known as grandparents. Last week, the insurance company and travel company specialising in older customers saga sparked debates with its decision to give

employees who just become grandparents some special paid leave. Now we know there are millions of grandparents providing free childcare, but at what cost? What does it take out of you time-wise, energy-wise? How much money are you saving your children if you've considered that? Do you see it as a precious thing you'll never have the chance to do again? Or is it a bit too much and something you didn't ask for? And perhaps there's a lot of pressure involved. One of our listeners has been in touch, Linda Bracewell from Lancashire. She looks after two of her grandchildren.

And in a moment, I'll be talking to Shireen Kanji, who's a professor of work and organisation at Brunel University. But Linda, to come to you, first of all, good morning. Good morning. What's your setup? What do you do? I have two children, but we live geographically close to my daughter. And she's a medic working for the NHS long hours and gone through Covid like everybody else and her husband also works in the NHS. When I was growing up working in the NHS my mum

looked after my children and that allowed me to pursue my career even though my husband wasn't around a lot of the time to help me because he worked away a lot and we grew up with the understanding that when my daughter came to have children because he worked away a lot and we grew up with the understanding that when my daughter came to have children because she wanted to be a doctor that I would stop work and I would look after her children and that was a choice that I was lucky enough to be able to make and took early retirement when her child came along so I look after her two children on a very regular basis and a very flexible basis. And it's very important that I do both for me and for her and the children.

And you took early retirement. I did. I was I was very fortunate. I had my own pharmacy practice, which I ran for 23 years and I'd achieved everything I wanted to do in my career. And so when I was 57, I decided to sell the business and retire because first grandchild had come along. My daughter's little boy had been born. And I decided that what I wanted to do was have complete flexibility to be able to be around when she needed me and when she needed me to have the boys. And how much are we talking here? You say it's very flexible. Give me a bit of an insight. What hours and how is it for you?

Don't hold back. Go for it. Well, it all depends whether she's on call or whether she's doing what is sort of a normal week. But a normal week, as we all know, our junior doctors work incredibly hard. And we're very, very grateful to them in particular at the moment. But you might be scheduled for a shift between nine and five.

But in reality, that means you want to be there by quarter to eight. So you've got your act together by the time things take over. And when the clock ticks over at five o'clock, there's no way you're ready to leave because there might be relatives coming in who want to talk to her and i need her to feel that she doesn't need all she needs to do is send me a text i'm running late mum and i'm there and if need be put the boys to bed whatever it happens to be um and and it's it's a team effort it's a team effort and we've worked all our lives we're all nhs workers the whole extended family are and we understand what it takes to be a member of the nhs care team and how important it is that that she's able to do a job properly without worrying about what's happening with the children

do you all get on well we all get on amazingly well. There are two pairs of parents, myself and the in-law grandparents. Yes, how's that relationship? Is that good? Absolutely amazing. They don't get jealous that you're the other primary carer? No, no, no. To be honest, we really do share things out. Because that's quite important.

I've just got a message. Can I read you this? Julia says, At the age of 72, I'm about to become a gran. Not something that's ever interested me until now. I'm completely caught up in the excitement and suspense. Only one problem. My son lives in another country with his partner who was born there. Her parents will be the hands on grandparents and I'll be the absent one who sends the birthday cards. I'm wondering if I should follow my son to his new country. I would say go for it, without a shadow of a doubt. My pressure is that I have a son who lives on the outskirts of London because that's where he got a job, that's where he formed his life, so he's nearly 300 miles away. And I have to try really, really hard to spend time with the grandson down there.

And it's really important that we do that. But in order to do that, I have to make sure the diary up north works as well. So I rely on the other grandparents to cover and that sort of thing. So it works out really well because we work hard at it. But your son also doesn't get bothered by how much free childcare and support his sister's getting? He's very, very, very, very fortunate that his wife's family live close by

and they've basically done exactly the same as us. Right, so he's got it elsewhere. The question I want, I think it's brilliant to be having this conversation from your perspective and from this perspective, although some may be feeling slightly more under the cosh than you and also they may not have been able to afford to stop working so then they can't balance it I'm very aware of that but just a question from the

perspective of of your daughter from how you see her life and I suppose it's a bigger question about society could your daughter have continued working in the way that she wanted and pursuing her career if you were not able to do this? The only way she could do it, and we've talked about this, the only way she could have done it would be if she had a live-in nanny. Because that's what a number of her colleagues have had to do when you've got both parents working flexible hours. Their hours don't fit nursery. They don't fit childminders. when they when you've got both parents working flexible you know flexible hours their hours don't fit nursery they don't fit child minders they've got to have this absolutely flexible approach and the only thing they could have done i think is get a living nanny and that's just not something that they could ever afford no would they want to do that because they want it in the

family they want that care in the family yeah and we want to do it. I have to say, there's an anonymous message here, because Linda, your situation, wonderfully so, is working out well. And, you know, it sounds like the Waltons, if you remember that. But, no, we never row, we get on, nobody's jealous. Oh, no, no. I didn't say we didn't row. Okay. That's like the after hours bit of this discussion. But no, I'm sure there are pressures. You know, jokes aside, you know, you've got to make decisions and do some disciplining and all of that. But there's a message here that says my son lives with us and has shared custody of his two boys aged six and eight.

The custody means, in effect, that I have two extra children. I already have four a week. As much as I love my grandsons, it means that it is a chore at times rather than a joy to look after them. And I feel that a lot of the delight of having grandchildren has been taken away and obviously that's again another particular scenario but I think that is a bit of a theme with some of our listeners that they adore their grandchildren of course they do but they never perhaps expected the same role you've expected do you hear that amongst any of your friends I've got one particular friend who has a daughter-in-law who's in the forces and her son works shifts.

And for long periods of time, her grandchild ends up living with her when her daughter-in-law is abroad on duty. And I think what it does do when you spend a lot of time with your grandchildren is that actually you're not just the nice grandma who drops in and visits you actually do quite a bit of what I would call parenting rather than grandparenting so things like maintaining the same levels of discipline and having those challenging conversations with the grandchildren which is don which has to be done as mum and dad want it to be. But that is perhaps not necessarily what some grandparents see as their role. They're ready for a bit of fun by this point.

They absolutely are. But we can't play all the time because we have to get to bed on time and we still have to do our homework and things like that. Linda, I wouldn't mess with you. I mean, there's a smile, there's a smile, but there's some seriousness there. There's iron steel underneath that. Linda Bracewell, thank you so much for talking to all of us today. Shireen Kanjia, Professor of Work and

Organisation. Good morning. Good morning. Do we have any idea of how many grandparents look after their grandchildren and actually how much money that's saving us as a group, as a society? Well, we do have a good idea of how many grandparents are looking after their grandchildren. There are about 12.7 million children under the age of 16 in the UK. And numerous studies agree that about 50% of children are looked after by their

grandparents in some way. And just as Linda was saying, mostly care is given to enable parents to go to work and it's mostly the maternal grandmothers. It's not only maternal grandmothers, I think also the grandmothers, the mothers of fathers are also participating. The sort of order of hierarchy seems to be maternal grandmother, then mother of father, then grandfathers are also involved, often to sort of support grandmothers, but not so much directly. But if we think you were asking about the cost and how much that's saving, I mean, I think that mostly grandparents are not paid by their adult children. And so, you know, if we think they're about 50 percent looked after by grandparents, that makes about six million children. And say grandparents provide on average two hours per week, which are many grandparents providing much more than that. But some are not providing so much. So that would be about 100 hours of childcare per year.

And then at the minimum wage, that would make about 5.3 billion pounds. So I've seen estimates. That's really very much the bottom of the estimates. I've seen estimates that are much higher, even up to 20 billion. And it's part of a bigger problem of not accounting for unpaid work. You know, an issue that is constantly raised on this programme, I think. It is, especially with links to women and their role in society. And as we were just starting to touch on the importance of grandparents in enabling their children to not just be in the workforce, but be able to flourish or survive themselves. And also, I wish we had more time, perhaps we can talk again about this, but you just raised the thorny issue of hierarchy, the maternal

grandparent over the paternal grandparent, and that could be a whole woman's hour in itself. And thank you for giving us some of the figures and a bit of the picture there, Shireen Kanji, Many messages coming in on this. To Shireen's point, I mean, perhaps you do have an issue with this being unpaid. Perhaps you are paid. Do get in touch. 84844 is the number you need to get on text

and also at BBC Women's Hour on social media. But speaking about relationships and speaking about some of those trials and tribulations, here's the latest conversation from our series under pressure which looks at the stress put on relationships when life happens carla and brendan met at school their lives looked to be on track and then things changed joe morris went to meet them and carla shared her personal experiences about when her fibromyalgia a long-term condition which can cause widespread persistent pain, first began.

I can remember sitting in the bath and just crying, like sobbing. And I mean, I'm not really much of a crier at all. I just felt so much despair, I mean, and pain. I don't think I could get out of the bath by myself. And I just felt hopeless. I think hopeless is a good word because everything I had hoped for wasn't going to happen. I didn't know how to say fibromyalgia.

I'd never heard of it. I got this picture. Do you remember this one? No. Oh, okay. So you're going to get this a lot. Brendan's memory is terrible. I'm going to get a different one. Slander.

So that one? Yeah, that's at your house. No, it's not. It's not at your room? No. Do you remember this one? Yes. And that's when we went out and you did karaoke.

Yes. Yeah. So you two met before Carla had fibromyalgia. How did you meet? We met at secondary school. What were your first impressions of Carla? She was quite mouthy. Very abrupt.

I think fierce. Short. Fierce. Not spiky. So he was always quite cool. So this is early 20s. This is when I was at university. So this is you and Brendan together?

Yeah. But you hadn't got together? No, no, no. We were just mates. He came to stay. Did you like him at this point? No, I didn't fancy him. We were just mates. He was just my mate he was just brendan and my mum kept going oh but brendan's so handsome and nice it's like

mum it's brendan for the record i didn't fancy you at secondary school no i know yeah yeah i know and at college i didn't fancy you either we were just making that no absolutely we did not fancy each other okay oh so that's me graduating is this your mum yeah oh she looks very proud she told everyone I was the first one on my mum's side of the family to go to university and and finish and she was really pleased that I got a first and she saw that I worked really hard and she was very proud of me. Did you have a plan at that age of what your life was going to be? Absolutely yeah very focused on doing well and getting a first and I believe that if I did that I would succeed in life and everyone would be wowed that I'd done so well.

Because I grew up in a house which was very turbulent and had domestic violence, I wanted to get out. And the way I was going to get out was by going to university. I got ill and it all stopped. Big one? Are we going to be drinking during? I always stop for a little slurp of tea. I'll give you a big one as well then. I'm a big cupper.

So, like, with your fibromyalgia, is something like making a cup of tea, can that...? Today actually is quite a good day. My back's aching quite a bit, and I'm having a few twinges, but my legs are OK today, and my feet don't hurt. I haven't had a headache yet so that's good i could go for a nap quite easily so it's totally unpredictable the only predictable thing is is that if i do too much i will be in more pain so how often will brendan

have to get you out of bed this week you haven't have you brendan how would you describe being in a relationship with someone who has fibromyalgia it's definitely different to how we thought our lives would be there were points where I was more of your carer than I was your husband or partner it would be really hard in the mornings so she would wake up and her fingers would be kind of locked in in kind of like a weird grippy clawry fashion and i would have to kind of open her fingers up i'd have to help her sit up in bed help her stand up walk her to the bathroom help her get up and down off the toilet then walk back upstairs he used to dry my hair oh yeah yeah i hate it yeah you did i didn't like any of it but the hair drying particularly i just really didn't like you doing it i was quite vulnerable at that

point and it just it felt it wasn't like a fun time of us bonding. Did it alter the dynamic in your relationship? The dynamic changed, but I don't think it was like a strain on the relationship, I think. At that point, I hadn't accepted that this was a lifelong thing. I kept expecting that I would get better. I still didn't believe that that's what it was going to be like. I never thought that I would be a housewife for so long. I always thought I would work. Always. I'm getting all foggy. What time is it?

See, I need some drugs, that's why. Do you? Yeah. Do you want to go and get them? Mm. So what does it feel like when you need... Well, it starts to slow down. My thoughts are starting to get slower.

And are you aware of it when it's happening? Not straight away. I'm struggling to find the words more, and I think it's because the pain starts to... Yeah, I can't. I will get my pills. After I became unwell, I can't. I will get my pills. After I became unwell, I was angry. I really do feel like my life was stolen.

My goals and dreams were taken away. I was in a parallel universe, that's the only way I can describe it. It was just that everyone was the same and they were still going and doing their things and Brendan was still going to work and everything changed overnight to the point where he went away for work and he came back and I couldn't walk properly. It was really strange.

We got engaged, I proposed on Christmas Day and then I went to Jamaica for three weeks in January for work to record an album. And I came back and you'd kind of changed. Bedridden and in a lot of pain. Really frustrated. Confused about what's going on. Work had let you go because you hadn't been able to go in because you were so sick she was still on probation so they cut their losses and and said goodbye

so you got the career brendan and carla obviously had plans for a career and having fibro is scuppered that i know that it was frustrating for you at times as well seeing me doing that and seeing me being able to travel because that was one of the things that you would wanted to to do with your career was to get a job that would allow you to see parts of the world there was a point where I didn't tell you yeah we didn't talk about it you'd come back I'd come back and I just wouldn't ask questions about what you'd done. Yeah. Or I would be like, was it good?

You'd be like, yeah. I felt very, like my identity had been taken, that my sort of attractiveness, my ability to exercise, my body shape changed, my outside world shrunk so much that I was no longer interesting what have I done today well I've you know managed to get down the stairs that's that's what I've done today did you get jealous of the women he worked with I wouldn't say jealous I struggled at points when you were doing the jollies when you were doing the the away days you're really funny and handsome and everyone's

like oh Brendan's so nice and handsome and funny and I think that you don't see it I think you don't see people checking you out they're all these girls with like glossy swishy hair and work and have lives and do interesting things and then you come home to me and I'm like, there's washing up to do, mate. It's a big thing, though, isn't it, as a sort of 23-year-old to take on. A lot of people wouldn't have stayed together. At the beginning, I worried that I would get left behind and that he would, you know, change and I wouldn't change with him.

We got together really young. We got married really young. We did everything really young. And you change, know as you get older you change your outlooks change and because you're experiencing things I wouldn't experience those things and not I would not keep up or I would get a bit boring but I don't worry about that as much now I make him laugh nearly every day it's fine do you have to work hard at that or does that come naturally it's natural it's a natural talent I think the strain is he worries about me he worries that I won't look after myself I'll keep pushing myself and that I will get to the point where I won't look after myself. I'll keep pushing myself and that I will get to the point where I can't recover. That I'll be back to where I was originally.

I feel like a nag sometimes. I feel like I have to nag you and remind you about... You do. I mean, I nag you too. We're married, you nag each other. I have to nag you about yourself. Yes. Whereas you nag me about the things I've forgotten to do. Yeah.

Do you ever worry that he might leave you? No. Did you in the early days worry he might leave you? When I first became unwell, I remember saying to him, it's okay, we don't have to get married if you don't want to. This isn't what you signed up for. I can't imagine life without him and I don't think he can imagine life without me.

What was the turning point for you, Carla? What made your condition become more manageable? Emotionally, the turning point has been having children because it gave me purpose and it gave me friendships because when I first became unwell there was no one around you know everyone was at work all my peers were at work. Did you worry how the fibromyalgia was going to affect you in your pregnancy and as a parent? I spent over a year getting well enough to have my first child. What do you mean, what did you do?

So I did Pilates and I came off all my medication because I was worried it would affect her. Actually, during the pregnancy, the fibromyalgia seemed to lessen. It wouldn't have stopped me from having children. I can't imagine what it would have been like if we hadn't. How has the fibro impacted your sexual relationship? I think the medication I take changes your libido.

I don't feel as sexual. I can't even remember what I was like really but I find it hard to prioritize it in my energy levels then actually having sex will hurt it doesn't hurt particularly during but just the sort of the physical act of it will make me sort of have a mini flare up i will hurt the next day my hips will hurt or my back will hurt more brendan has struggled where he feels responsible or guilty that he feels he has hurt me and doesn't want to whereas i often feel like if i've managed to have sex that it's worth it what's that been like for you brendan knowing that if you have sex it can cause problems for Carla frustrating I think she's beautiful I think she's sexy I'm at home a lot I see her a lot more I think she's sexy more I have felt

guilty I don't want to hurt Carla I wouldn't say let's go trampolining tomorrow so why should we kind of engage in a sexual activity that would that would cause pain as well we've explored doing things differently in ways that are less i suppose physically intensive we can still do sexual things but it not necessarily always be about penetrative sex so where's the power dynamic in the relationship who's the boss of the relationship look at you look at you trying to like be not not overly powerful but also knowing that you are the powerful one it's me yeah yeah it's me but at times it's not fibro stops you or i have to stop you from yourself.

You are constantly trying to get me to do less. Yeah. I'm constantly trying to do more. Yeah. That's the dynamic. That is the dynamic, pretty much. Have you ever thought that this relationship might not be able to take the pressure?

No. What about you, Carla? No. Do you wish she was different? I wish she didn't have fibro. That's what I wish for when I blow out the candles or when the girls give me a dandelion. You're still here.

You're wonderful. You're creative. You're wonderful. You're creative. You're an amazing mum. Oh, I'm going to cry. That's okay. Oh, I love that. Brendan and Carla, thank you so much for sharing.

Sources of information and support about fibromyalgia are available on the Woman's Hour website. And you can find the first two episodes in the series, Under Pressure, on BBC Sounds, talking about family relations. Just briefly from Linda, who says, I have three children, each of them has two. I adore my grandchildren,

but I made it clear, having brought up my own children 200 miles from my mother and mother-in-law, I would not be a full-time carer for theirs. Of course, in an emergency, I help out, but my parenting days are over, and I want to be free. Another one here, an anonymous one. My mother banged on for years about having grandchildren, put me under an enormous amount of pressure. When I had my baby aged 35 and asked how she wanted to be involved, I was hoping she'd commit to one or two days a week of childcare.

I was staggered when she said she didn't want to commit to anything. I've had no backup from my husband either, so I ended up giving up my career. I've already committed to my daughter. I'll help her so she can stay in hers. A very powerful message indeed. Well, talking about women in their careers and perhaps the highlights of their career, she can do no wrong when it comes to her sport, although tennis superstar Emma Raducanu has admitted this weekend she still gets told off by her support system, her parents, who are helping keep her feet firmly on the ground. Since she became the first British woman to win a Grand Slam singles tennis title since 77, of course, when she won the US Open in September a few months ago in straight sets, aged 18.

She's now the hot favourite to win this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year, the nominees for which were revealed just before I came on air this morning. There have been 66 recipients of the award award but only 13 have been women anna kessel women's sports editor of the telegraph good morning morning emma is emma still the hot favorite now we know the shortlist tell us who's on it and where she is i very much hope so i mean i think all year we've been saying you know ever since ever since she won the US Open, we all said, surely, surely this has got to be the year that we see Emma win. But not only Emma win, a woman win because no woman has won since 2006. And it's starting to get a bit ridiculous.

Dame Sarah Story is also on the list, the greatest Paralympian from Britain of all time. She's there. And then the other four are men. We've got Tom Daley, Tyson Fury, Adam Peaty and Raheem Sterling to give that full list. In terms of Emma and where she comes, of course, it was a stunning victory after the drama also at Wimbledon where she had to pull out. But you tell us why you think she's worthy, perhaps, her versus, if I could go this far, versus Sarah. Oh, it's difficult to put them against each other, I think. You know, Emma's achievement is just extraordinary and unprecedented. She is the first ever qualifier, male or female, to win a Grand Slam in tennis history.

She did so as a teenager. She didn't drop a single set all the way through. The fact that she played three extra matches than anybody else she played stunning tennis and she did it I mean you know it's layer upon layer upon layer she did it off the back of Wimbledon where she'd already impressed us all in the whole nation of falling in love with her she'd reached the fourth round with the whole you know the whole country going absolutely potty about how wonderful she was then had if you remember these breathing difficulties had to retire from the match had mass speculation from the likes of pierce morgan john mackinrow all this sort of stuff you know it was the kind of pressure and to come back from a situation like

that and then go on to win a grand slam is just it's indescribable she's she's amazing well the other thing though to say i suppose is because obviously with with Dame Sarah Story her achievements are also incredible aren't they I mean 75 world records she's been she's done how many Paralympics she started um in 1992 at Barcelona she was in the swimming won two golds then um changed to cycling in 2008 in Beijing um You know, carried on winning gold this year in Tokyo, three more golds in cycling, makes her the most decorated British Paralympian ever and one of the most decorated Paralympians in the world.

I think, though, the element, the title, if you like, that always catches my eye, the word in the title, rather, is personality. Is it about winning or is it about something else? You know, and do you actually have to have a decent personality to win it? It's not about personality. I think that that word throws everybody. It makes people think you've got to be fun or not. And I sort of wonder, is it that word that makes it difficult for women to win? Because we do have this kind of idea that men are funnier men are kind of more

engaging um and and women sort of can't fulfill that role and I think that sometimes throw this throws the British public you know the likes of Jessica Ennis Hill who in 2012 at the London Olympic Games you know she was the face of the games she faced the most pressure she went and won the heptathlon and it was an incredible moment that topped Super Saturday at the time. And she did not manage to win Sports Personality of the Year, something that's always scarred me ever since. I can't quite forget it. It's a fascinating thought as well around if you show a bit of personality

or what could be deemed a bit of personality as a woman and especially as a role model as sports people are held up as. Debate, that's a separate debate, sports people are held up as debate that's a separate debate should they be held up as uh should they have the prominence that they do but that you will then also you know potentially divide people that you have to be the good girl and we've seen that so clearly this year look at what happened with Naomi Osaka she came out and said actually you know what my mental health is suffering I can't do this press conference we saw it with Simone Biles and everything that she'd been through,

you know, sexual abuse in her sport. Despite winning so many medals and her incredible track record, she really struggled in Tokyo at the Olympic Games and pulled out several events. And there was so much debate about whether these women were doing the right thing. But in fact, I think we can sort of look back now and say, wow, they really changed the conversation around sports and changed what was acceptable to the point where men started being able to pull out of events and talk about their mental health, too.

But I think when, you know, when women put themselves out there, they often face a lot of criticism. Anna, call it for me. Who's going to win it this weekend? Oh, please, please. Or coming shortly, I should say. Sorry, not this weekend oh please please coming shortly i should say sorry not this weekend go on please can it be emma radicano i think you know we may not ever see an achievement like that again in our lifetime you've called it anna kessel thank you thank you to all of you back tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one. Sideways is back for another season with stories of incredible

feats of endurance. Mountain climbers, we plod onward through avalanches and snowstorms and occasional yetis. I'm Matthew Side, and in Sideways, you'll hear stories of bold thinkers and amazing lives. Stories of seeing the world differently. Subscribe to Sideways on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.