Woman's Hour - Graves of stillborn babies, Chaka Khan, Climate seniors, Right wing women leaders in the EU

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Up until the 1980s, stillborn babies were swiftly taken from their mothers who weren’t always told what had happened to them. Now one of those mothers is calling for an apology after finding the grave of her stillborn son more than five decades after he was born. Gina Jacobs talks to Anita about how she found where her son Robert had been buried and how she’s working to help other women do the same. In April the European Court of Human Rights passed a landmark ruling saying that Switzerland was violating the human rights of its citizens by inadequate action on climate change. The case was launched by a group of Swiss women over 65 called "climate seniors", calling for better protection of women's health from the effects of climate change. But yesterday, the Swiss parliament voted to reject the ruling, saying that it already has an effective climate change strategy. Elisabeth Stern, one of the climate seniors, joins Anita to share her reactions to the news. The American singer-songwriter, Chaka Khan, known as the Queen of Funk, is celebrating her 50th anniversary in music this year. With hits such as Ain't Nobody, I Feel for You and the anthem I'm Every Woman her music has sold an estimated 70 million records, winning her 10 Grammy Awards. She is curating Meltdown 2024 at the Royal Festival Hall, and opens the festival tomorrow night. She shares her plans and discusses her favourite songs.Far-right parties across Europe made significant gains in the European elections, and women have been at the forefront of this right-wing shift in several countries. Right-wing groups which include those led by Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni, France’s Marine Le Pen and Germany’s Alice Weidel are set to gain further seats in European parliament. To hear about the female leaders of Europe’s far-right and what this shift could mean for women, Anita is joined by the host of EU Confidential Politico's Sarah Wheaton and Shona Murray, Europe correspondent for Euronews.A new report has found that women artists made up just 2% of the most-played songs on Irish radio in the past year. To find out why women aren’t getting more airplay in Ireland, Anita is joined by Linda Coogan Byrne, the founder of Why Not Her? which champions gender diversity in the Irish culture sector. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Olivia Skinner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Who is the eldest stateswoman of music you'd like to be blessed by and why? That's what I'm asking you this morning. I saw a clip of Cher on social media yesterday saying to an audience, do everything you can now. I was pretty bad, but I wish I'd been worse. Encouraging her audience to just do it and not

to worry too much about being a good girl. So which of your musical heroes has given you a boost when you've needed it the most? What was happening in your life and who helped you through it? I think Taylor Swift is helping a lot of young women and their mums do a lot of stuff right now. Possibly Billie Eilish. My own recommendation is to shut the door and dance like nobody is watching to Kate Bush. That's helped me navigate a few bumps in my own path. Get in touch with me in the usual way. You can text me on 84844. You can also email me via our website and our WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444.

Also on the programme, I'll be speaking to Gina Jacobs on finding the grave of her stillborn baby 50 years after he was born and how she's helping other women do the same. And we turn our attention to European politics. The far right made gains in the European elections. Many of those parties are led by women. We'll be hearing all about them. That text number once again, 84844. Now, some of you may find this story upsetting. Before the mid-1980s, it was standard practice for stillborn babies to be swiftly taken away

from their mothers after the birth. Once the babies had been taken away, parents often weren't told where they'd been buried. Women who had lost a baby were left wondering where their babies were and unable to find their graves. I'm joined now by one such woman, Gina Jacobs from the Wirral. Two years ago, she found where her baby son, Robert, was buried 53 years after he was stillborn. She's since gone on to help many local women in the same position to find the graves of their lost children and Gina joins us now. Good morning Gina. Welcome to the programme. It is really important to discuss this story but I just want to ask how you feel about sharing it this morning. I feel very confident about sharing it Anita because I want the story to be out there. There are certain questions like

who took the decision to put our babies in mass graves? Who took the decision that our babies were not deemed worthy to have a Christian name? Which government ministers were responsible for introducing this practice? And what part did the NHS play? We do need these questions to be answered because these are the questions that we're left thinking, who on earth could have been so heartless and inhuman as to put us mums through that. Who made the decision to say,

well, these mums cannot see their babies? We weren't allowed to hold them. We weren't allowed to name them. We were literally told to go home and get on with it. I've had people contact me who were actually told, I mean, one lady in particular was told that there were plenty more where they came from. It's just unbelievable. The dads collecting their children, their dead children in cover boxes tied with string

and usually being directed to the nearest bus stop. Who made these decisions? Who could have come up with it? I mean, do you know why these decisions were made? Because this was what happened before the 1980s. It did go on as... I mean, I do have a baby at the moment, 1990. It did actually go on.

I would say it started to improve round about 1985 but then the worst still babies taken away all until as I say the latest one I have found was 1990 now who could have made a decision like that who could have said well these women don't let them see their babies. I think they thought, well, I know they thought in their wisdom that if a mum didn't see her baby, she would get over it quicker. No, you were left wondering. They stole the memory of that face.

None of us have got a memory of that precious face because it's been stolen away from us. Can we go back to when your son Robert was stillborn in 1969 because this happened to you? You weren't allowed to see him. Can you tell me about that? What happened? Well, I had two other children, very easy, successful pregnancies and births. And all was well with Robert, right up until the time when he was due. He was full term. No problems whatsoever. I did find that the movement ceased kind of the day before I gave birth to Robert.

But I wasn't particularly worried because I mean this does happen anyway I went into labour I gave birth to Robert I mean the staff who were there at the time were very kind very very nice I asked him he was almost seven pound i asked if i could see him but he was whisked away in what seemed to me to be seconds i said look where have you taken him please please let me see my baby but there was absolutely no way i could see that baby They came to me and they said that my husband would be asked to pick up the baby the next day from the hospital and would take the baby to Llandergan Cemetery, who I must say have been marvellous in my quest for finding babies, would be taken to London Cemetery, left. And we were told that, I mean, I've only recently called him Robert. We really weren't allowed to give them a Christian

name. As I say, they were not deemed worthy of a Christian name. We were told that he would be put in with a person who was being buried that day or the day after did anyone explain to you why he was taken from you no no only the fact that they seem to think that if we didn't see the baby we'd kind of get over it quicker it was such a lonely journey because it's kind of you and that baby for nine months and then suddenly that baby has gone and you kind of feel you're not we felt we weren't allowed to speak of it we were almost told don't speak of it because it will make it will make things worse so in their in their wisdom back then they thought that by not speaking about it by not letting you see your baby, that actually it might help you get over it. That, I think, was the thinking behind it.

Did you get any support? Did you get any support from the hospital? Absolutely none. I don't think there was any support available then. And, you know, we weren't living in the age of the barbarians, were we? I mean, actually, they probably would have treated their mums and babies better. But nevertheless, you know, they had this. It was the lie. We were told that the baby was going to go in with someone else. The very fact of that stopped you looking for your baby.

I'm really struck by what you said that your husband had to collect Robert's body from the hospital and take him to the cemetery. I wonder how that impacted your husband. Did you talk about it together? Absolutely traumatised him. I cried for months. He just found it so, so very hard. He couldn't really talk about it. He just said, tell me that the baby was in a cardboard box tied with string. And he was told, actually, he was told if he hurried, he'd catch the next bus. Who deemed that people should have been put through experiences like that?

Who could have been behind it? I mean, everybody involved, which was the NHS. I think it was a government directive. Because since I've heard of these mass graves, and they're all mass graves. In one grave, I found 90 babies. These mass graves are right across our nation. So let's talk about 53 years later, because that's what we're talking about now.

You made a decision to try and look for Robert. Why did you make that decision? Why did it take you, why 53 years later? What changed? It's so hard because you feel if you go and ask and the baby can't be found, you're going to be left with all kinds of questions as to where is this baby? This is why I've tried to help others because I know how hard it is to go and ask. I watched a programme on BBC Northwestern tonight where a lady, after a great number of years,

had found her baby. And I thought, I'm going to do that. It took me another three months to pluck up the courage. So what I did, I wrote it down on a little piece of paper. I went to my local cemetery, Landerken. I couldn't bring myself to say the word so I handed the paper over and within seconds he was found she came back and she said he's in with 62 of the babies to which I replied no disrespect can you please check because he's not he's in with a person who was buried that day or the day after to which she replied oh they told everybody that believe you me Anita they did and they knew that those babies were not going to go in with anyone buried that day one reason they had to go in ground that had not been blessed they are all in non-conformist

and ground that hasn't been blessed they would not have been allowed to go in with the person buried that day because they have not been baptized so what were your feelings that day then because on the one hand you found where your son was buried but then also you've been given this other news as well that you didn't know about that he'd been married with 60 other babies what you must have been feeling all sorts of emotions that day feeling all kinds i was feeling very angry because i thought well why would why would you say would, whatever the thinking of the time, surely telling lies was not the thinking of the time. And everybody involved in this knew that those babies were going to go and masquerade as other babies. But as a mother, Gina, as the mother of Robert, how did you feel finding where he was?

I cannot tell you. I haven't the words it was totally and utterly joyful we were given a map and because my name are Ashley Osborne went along with me we were given a map and we found the place where Robert was and it was like it was like everything had come together. It was like, it was joyful. It was so joyful that I haven't got the words to explain it. I thought, I found him. I can visit. I can bring the birthday card.

I can bring the Christmas card. I can look after this place for him and the other 62 sleeping angels who sleep here with him. And it was just amazing. But then I started to feel so angry that we had been lied to in this way. And you've helped other mothers find their babies. And how has that been when you speak to other mothers my favorite words in the english language are your baby has been found they are my very favorite words then we have the other side where there are three or four babies maybe a little few babies more who are hard to find. And those parents of families are left wondering,

where are these babies? Some people were told that the baby was going to go to a totally different cemetery to what it did go to for some unknown reason. So that's very hard because those people are now left with a lot of questions as to where their baby is and it must be like losing that baby all over again I think and it's horrible to have to say part time and now 53 years later you have a huge family you're

a great-grandmother a great-great-grandmother great-great-grand grandmother actually great greats yes two greats two greats and what's the reaction like from your family when you talk about robert well we're talking about him all the time now he's never mentioned for 53 years and these little ones are saying they've got a new cousin and asking me where he is and i mean we never never mentioned i wonder how that how does how does that feel for you having not spoken his name for 53 years and now you're able to talk about him and know where he is and here you are telling me all about him as well it feels absolutely fantastic spectacular it just, I love to go to his place. I can't call it grave.

So I love to go to his place and I love to just be there, think of the other babies. I cut the grass. I've made it all nice. I put a little tribunes up to the 62 the 62 babies who sleep with him either side of him are these mass graves one has 85 babies in and not sure about the number on the other side but it will be a great number you can bet your life this is comforting now if we'd only been told the truth um gina it's been um fascinating to speak to you thank you so much many thanks to my guest gina jacobs and thank you thank you for listening and i hope i haven't gone

on too much not at all not at all thank you thank you i must say if you've been affected by the issues we've just talked about today you can find support on the woman's hour website number, again, you can get in touch with me about anything you're hearing on the programme today, share your experiences, is 84844. Now, earlier this year, in April, the European Court of Human Rights passed a landmark ruling saying that Switzerland was violating the human rights of its citizens by inadequate action on climate change. The case was launched by a group of Swiss women called Klima Seniorinen, or climate seniors, 2,400 women over the age of 65 calling for better protection of women's health

for the effects of climate change. You may remember we talked about it on this very programme. Yesterday, the Swiss parliament voted to reject the ruling, saying that it already has an effective climate change strategy. Well, Elizabeth Stern, one of the climate seniors, was sitting in Parliament yesterday watching it all go down. And she joins me now live from Switzerland. Elizabeth, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for coming on to speak to me.

Last time we spoke, you were celebrating. How do you feel right now? Right now, how do you feel right now right now how do i feel sorry uh exhausted disappointed um low uh because i was right there in that national in the chamber listening to all the arguments. And the arguments they came up with against the judgment and why they don't want to honor it, although they don't put those words,

they don't say we don't honor it. What they actually say is, we have fulfilled it already, which is a lie. It's just an outright lie. I felt terrible. I feel still very low this morning, wondering what is it exactly that made those, and they were mostly men that spoke against the verdict. What is it really that they reject about this ruling? Was it quite a heated debate in Parliament? Yes, and I cannot compare because I'm usually not in the parliament.

So from my point of view, it was not heated in that sense. It was just one speaker after the next, and many of them repeated themselves what one said who talked before. And I had a feeling, well, they didn't even listen to each other. But it was heated in the sense that I had all this heat in myself and I almost exploded up there. What do you think is behind the decision? decision well one thing is very definitely that the swiss some swiss let's put it that way they feel very strongly that nobody else from the outside has the right to interfere with what's going in within the country their argument is we are a small country and now specifically in terms of climate, they feel like we have done everything.

We are anyway one of the best. But when you look actually at the CO2 emissions per head, then we are behind many European countries. But they say we are responsible only for 1,000 of CO2 of the total. So who cares about us? It doesn't matter what we do, actually, what we don't do. It doesn't count within the whole CO2 emissions, the global CO2 emissions. So that's one thing.

And the other one is whoever, because they have the narrative that these were not our own judges. So these are foreign judges. And now they decide on something on Switzerland. Well, I tell you, if our own judges had listened to us, we would not have needed to go to Strasbourg, but which, by the way, is not, is still our court, because that is part of the European Council. And we are a member of the European Council. Last time we spoke, we were very buoyed. It was a very different conversation that we had, because you'd won. And we talked about the power of women over a certain age you called yourself the rebellious grannies I remember thinking I would love to join you two and a nearly two and a half thousand of you over the age of 65 what what does this mean

about the voice your voice your collective voice well what it definitely means is that it wasn't heard. But on the other hand, this is a sentence my grandfather always said, no goat can lick it away. So in this case, meaning that we won the case, so nobody can take that away. And it was a very important victory for climate protection worldwide. Every country now feels that, oh, maybe we should just come up with a better climate policy. So what has what? By the way, we are now in the meantime 3,000 women. We got a lot more members after the ruling, after the positive ruling. But I tell you, we will not give up. We will just keep going.

And it's not final in that sense. It's not, you know, both chambers, the lower and the higher chamber. Yes, they have decided against it. And now they formulate a so-called, what they call a clairon, which literally just means explanation, some sort of declaration they are going to pass to the federal council. And the federal council is that body of seven people who runs the country. And they are going to recommend to them to well again they don't say to not honor it they say ah this ruling great we have fulfilled already everything yeah well the swiss government has said that they're not ignoring the ruling but that they

did not need to react as it already has an effective climate change strategy that's what they've said um I I'm I'm just thinking about the word that you used uh when you were in parliament and you heard them rejecting um what had happened that you exploded that's some kind of energy what happens what happens with your you said exploded I wrote it down and I thought I wonder what what happens what happens did i say you said exploded i wrote it down and i thought i wonder what what happens now what do you do with that explosion that's energy what happens to this energy that energy i think that energy in the meantime is gone after a sleepless night like this morning i don't feel like exploding i feel more like having a good night's sleep or a good day's sleep. I'm sure. Well, where will it go? I mean, it's not gone, gone in that sense. We will use it very definitely to still make sure that this ruling is implemented. Whatever we can do, and we have to think about that real hard,

what do we do now? Because according to a survey they did among the public, it looks like the majority of the public, of the Swiss population, was or is also against the judgment. So we have to really analyze that because at the same time, we put in a petition asking them to please respect the right. And that one, that what we call a petition, has been signed by 22,000 people within two weeks.

Do you think this changes the narrative about how older women are perceived? Well, I think that's what I said in the first interview we had. I really felt, yes, we did change the narrative about older people, specifically when they got to know us. Then it was clear we are not these sort of like crazy people who now just feel too hot in the summer and now they complain. Of course not. I mean, I said that the first time we were all activists

before in different movements, women movement, peace movement, and so on. And that will stay. I mean, we are still the same person. We have the same personality. And we will keep going. The narrative, evidently, for the moment anyway, we have not changed because all that hatred against women, I don't know where that real bottled up hatred that got expressed over the last few weeks. I mean, hatred against women, and then older women, of course,

I mean, you can make fun of them easily. If you are a stupid man to some men at some not to some men directly but at some presentation i made about our case i would say that if some of the mothers of these men who spoke yesterday between 40 and 50 mode many of them if their mothers would know, they would probably feel ashamed of their son. It's been great catching up with you again, Elizabeth Stern. You need your energy, so you need your sleep. But thank you for taking the time to speak to us this morning. Thank you. 84844, the number to text now.

The American singer-songwriter known as the queen of funk shaka khan is celebrating her 50th anniversary of music this year with hits such as ain't nobody i feel for you and the banging anthem i'm every woman her music has sold an estimated 70 million records winning her 10 grammy awards she's now curating the Meltdown Festival at the Southbank Centre in London with acts such as Misha Parris, Lady Blackbird, Judy Jackson, Big Joni and Morchiba. She opens the festival tomorrow night and will be performing many of her hits. We caught up with her earlier in her dressing room and she started by telling us how she got involved with the Meltdown Festival. Hello, my name is Shaka Khan.

I think we got a call asking would I be interested in the Meltdown Festival. Hello, my name is Shaka Khan. I think we got a call asking would I be interested in the Meltdown. And then we came out here shortly afterwards for a meeting with Adam and the whole crew. And saw this wonderful spot, the space that we're in, where the Meltdown's going to be held. And we talked about what exactly we'd like to do.

Oh, he asked me, well, what I'd like to do, because I'm the curator of this meltdown. I've never curated anything except my kids. So I thought about it, and I said, well, you know, I think the most important thing right now on this planet are young people and community. So I said, let's just make this one why don't we about the youth who are going to be our future you know the people who will be running our future country

so I think it would be a wise thing to have children involved and I think children are so special I love children more than anything the opening night is going to be sort of a big celebration and I'm going to perform with my band and we're going to be sort of a big celebration. And I'm going to perform with my band.

And we're going to have dancers and DJs. And it's going to be a really, really wonderful experience, a great show. I'm looking forward. Of course, I'll be performing all the songs that, hopefully, all the songs that people want to hear. I've done so many in my career. So I picked the songs that I think that most of the younger people have heard from their mothers growing up and the ones that, since they become adults, that they still love.

So that's one of the criteria that I used in order to pick the songs. But, you know, I have such a, I love them all for different reasons and in different ways. And some more than others, of course. There's some that I've been singing for 50 years. I think Ain't Nobody is still, is probably my oldest favorite. It's really the beat that really grabs you first.

And then the lyrics are lovely, you know, ain't nobody loves you better. And, you know, you can sing that to one of your children, to your husband, to a good friend. You could sing that to anybody. And that's another thing that I love about the song, you know. And it's just a fun song to do on stage, you know. I love kids. I think that they are the most interesting little living things on the planet and the closest thing to God for me. They're just like little angels. I'd rather be in a room full of little kids than anybody else. They're so interesting and full of energy and life. You know, they really do feed me in many ways.

We feed each other. I go to schools and I talk about it. I just have a mic. I say, let's talk about anything. Anything you want. Ask any question. Or anything you want to talk about. And we have great success with that. They love it.

And I love it. I bet I love it more than they do. How old should I be when I get married? Some girls ask those sorts of things. And as a 71-year-old great-grandmother, I think that has to be obviously one of my jobs on this planet. I mean, I really think that's one of my jobs is to be here to be of assistance to children. So we talk about almost everything and it's so fulfilling and it's so much fun for me as much for them, you know, so I can do my job and do my bit for the planet and they can get what they can get out of me because that's one reason I'm still here, I think.

There's a school in the area that is going to be participating. We're going to actually do a song together. I'm really, really looking forward to that. I've done quite a few anthems for women. I'm Every Woman, I think, has become the most popular one of them all. And I think that the women look forward to that. And you'd be surprised how many men do, too. Maybe not.

But mostly women really love that song. And I have the women all sing along with me and they all do. You know, it's a strong, powerful song written by Valerie Simpson. And it's the, was it my first hit as a solo artist? I believe it was. It's my first hit as a solo artist. So it's endearing, you know, for more than one reason. Sissy Houston sang background with me a lot when I lived in New York. That was during the 10 years time that I worked with

R.F. Martin, a great producer. And it would be mostly Sissy, a lot of times Luther Vandross, and myself. I sang a lot of my backgrounds as well. But one evening we were in the studio and we were, you know, winding down and Cece says to me that she has a daughter that who's a great singer and she's in her teens. I said, really? She says, oh yeah, she sings at church. She blows it out of the water. She's really amazing. I said, well, bring her down. And so she brought her down

and she sang background with us on a few songs. And that was the first time I met Wendy Houston. She was like a little sister. As a child, as a young girl, my mother and father sang around the house on weekends as we did house cleaning and things like that. And my little sister and I, we used to join in on the songs that they were singing. A lot of them were jazz, opera, things like that. But we learned them and we sang them, and we thought everybody did that.

We thought every family could sing and every family sang on every Saturday, you know, and they cleaned up and that. I didn't really think of it as a way of life for me or until a life endeavor until I was in a talent show in a little girl group that we had. I was on stage singing and people started throwing money on the stage. So that's when I equated, oh, I can make a living doing this. And I love it so much. So that's when I really knew that I had something special. I felt that I did anyway. My family name is Stevens.

Yvette Marie is what my parents named me. I became involved in a way of life, because it's really a religion in Africa. It's the Yoruba religion. And in that religion, you get a new name. And your name, they're given to you after spirits or orishas that are your spirits. By the way, an African priest or baba gave me all of these things. And so my entire spiritual name is Shaka Adune Adufe Yimoyahudare Karifi. Khan came from a previous husband. So Shaka means fire, warrioress, and all those good things. I like. There is a rap about it that I had nothing to do with, mind. Stevie Wonder wrote for me some years ago.

Arif Martin had the bright idea to have a rapper come on and do this rap on the song. And I wasn't so keen on it at first because when I first heard this guy sing my name over and over again, let me rock you, let me love you, I was like, oh God, I have to live with this. But little did I know that rap was going to be a really big art form. And that's over 50 years ago. So I said to Irav, do we have to do this? He said yes my dear it would be a wonderful hit. For the closing of the Meltdown I'll be performing with the New Civilization

Orchestra and I'm really looking forward to that because I get to sing songs that are very near and dear to me because these are songs I learned as a child with my father and mother singing as well. Like Diamonds Are Forever. I'm also singing, like, covering, like, To Serve With Love by Lulu. I love her. But mostly songs that back in the 50s, grown-ups listened to.

I mean, I love, absolutely adore singing with an orchestra. There's nothing more beautiful, more angelic besides children on earth, you know, for me. So I'm going to really enjoy doing that, and I'm looking forward to the day when I do that gig. I don't see any end in sight. I love what I'm doing and there's a lot left in me. Oh, that's good to know, Shaka. What a treat to hear the voice of Shaka Khan

on the programme this morning. And some of you may be lucky and have tickets for her Meltdown, which opens at the South Bank Centre tomorrow and runs till Sunday, the 23rd of June. And tomorrow we are going to be joined by one of the acts appearing at the Meltdown Festival, curated by Chaka Khan.

Les Amazons d'Afrique will be here and they're going to be performing live in the studio. So more music tomorrow. I asked you what music, what you feel when you listen to blesses you. I said at the beginning of the program it feels like we're having a blessing getting shaka khan on the program um a message here saying whilst kate bush defined my teens patty smith is the musical elder who's helped me most in my

mature years i saw her perform after a family bereavement and she helped me move and breathe freely again showing me it was possible to use my creativity through loss and change, and in doing so, letting in love and joy too. Another message here saying, talking of inspirational female singers, the wonderful Francois Hardy passed away this week. Indeed, she did. My hero and style icon. Lucy says, I think women make the most, most of the best music at the moment. For current heroines, I think Annie Clark, a.k.a. St. Vincent, Fiona Apple.

Neither of them has put a foot wrong and Elaine says the songs of Beth Nielsen Chapman have constantly inspired me when times have been hard she writes such beautiful words and music which explore every aspect of the human condition also quite a few of you getting in touch about the interview with Gina who spoke about having a baby stillborn 53 years ago and then finding his grave 53 years later. A message here saying, I'm a midwife and this story is harrowing and very important to tell. But it's also very important for all women to know it's not normal for the baby to have reduced movements or a change in movements. Change in movements is a sign all is not well and is reported again and again with women whose babies are stillborn.

And Debbie says this is exactly why it's so important that women are equally represented at all levels of decision making in our society. Interesting that this policy began to improve as women gained more of a foothold in public life generally. 844 is the number to text. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, the dust may be starting to settle on results. After four days of voting in the EU elections, the big headline we saw from Sunday's results was that though the centre-rights have held on to the largest grouping in the European Parliament, the far-right seem to have made significant gains in several countries. In France, the gains made by the far-right party national rally prompted the French president, Emmanuel Macron, to call a snap election.

And notably, women have been at the forefront of that right-wing shift in countries including France, Italy and Germany. So who are these women and what's next on the horizon for them in European politics? To tell us more, I'm joined by Shona Murray, Europe correspondent at Euronews and Politico's Sarah Wheaton, host of the EU Confidential podcast. Shona, Sarah, welcome. Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Maloney will be playing a big role in hosting the G7 summit, which starts today. So, Shona, let's get a bit of an introduction to who she is. Where does she come from in Italian politics? Yes, so she comes from the brothers of Italy, which has its roots in post-war neo-fascism.

She considers herself obviously not in that regard, but she is very proud of her conservative Catholic roots. She's a person who is very much anti-abortion. And actually, speaking of the G7, last year when Japan held the presidency, there was a communique that the G7 would promote access to free, fair and health based abortion rights. And that's something that was all agreed. And there is controversy at this G7 because Italy is trying to water down at the very least that language, basically not promoting abortion as access to health care. So there have been concerns at the start since she became prime minister that that's the type of thing she would try to introduce in Italy. And there are also concerns around her support or lack thereof for LGBT rights.

She's said things about surrogacy, which is that it should be criminalized, that it's essentially akin to renting a womb. And a lot of people see this as a sort of a route to attack the LGBT community because there's a lot of LGBT people who access surrogacy, but also women who can't have their own children too. So she is very right-wing, very conservative at home. But on the European stage, she's credited with being more pragmatic

because for lots of reasons, she's bringing her party somewhere towards the centre in order to ensure that she has much better power, I suppose, much better ability to forge deals. But also because Italy gets over 100 billion euros in the EU's post-COVID recovery fund, which is something that the country really needs. So she can't really afford to be in major confrontations with Brussels over that. I'm going to bring Sarah in on that as well. So she came up through quite an extreme political movement in Italy, as we've just been hearing from Shona. But let's talk about what she's been like on the European political stage recently.

Indeed, she's really stood out for also being kind of authentically, I wouldn't say authentically feminine, but like owning the fact that she's a woman. She kind of cut a, she once cut a press conference short because she said her high heels were bothering her. She dumped her partner when he was caught making, you know, making passes at other women in a recording. And then on the European level, she has actually been very successful at reassuring kind of the mainstream, showing that she can be kind of easy to work with. She can be a bridge between other kind of difficult players in the EU sphere. So, for example,

Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary, was holding up Ukraine funding earlier this year. She was able to kind of broker a deal with him to get him to drop that objection. So she's more moderate on the European stage? Certainly on the European stage. And we've seen Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, who will need Maloney's support if she's going to win a second mandate as Commission President, really reaching out to her, trying to build a personal relationship as well as a political relationship. But at the same time, people in the center right and especially the center left and further left remain very wary,

very sceptical of Maloney and have been putting a lot of pressure on Fondre Lyon saying, look, if you're really going to forge a formal alliance with Maloney, then that might rule out a relationship with us. Okay, good overview of Maloney there. I think we're going to leave Italy now and head to France because she's been connected and compared to Marine Le Pen from the French National Rally Party. So Sarah, who is Le Pen and what's the comparison with Maloney? So Marine Le Pen is the somewhat longtime leader of the national rally movement. It used to be known as the National Front, which was founded by her father. And it's known for being a very, you know, hardcore nationalist traditional party.

But they have been making successive electoral gains. And just in this past election, they performed twice as well as Emmanuel Macron's allies. And Macron has now called a snap election, said, look, you really want the far right to govern? You know, you're going to have your chance to make that decision in the next few weeks. And so we're seeing her seeing her campaign for that. She's not running. She's not running to be potentially prime minister, but she is seen as wanting to and potentially winning an election to be French president in the coming years. But unlike Maloney, she has not been as successful as presenting herself as sort of a mainstream figure. But she clearly sees a model.

She clearly wants to be governing and not just in the opposition. And so a lot of people are watching to see if she's able to make the transformation the way Maloney has. Shona, how does she fit in politically and how would she describe herself? Well, that's really interesting because she has been trying to erase the sort of more extreme past of her father's leadership of the National Front. In fact, she expelled him from the party because he's a known Holocaust denier and he says extremely anti-Semitic things, which is something that is a no-no in mainstream politics, for obvious reasons. So she's trying to sort of move the National Rally to the centre slightly, but not in the way that Maloney has, because

Marine Le Pen for a long time would have been a bit more comparable to Farage, you know, a disruptor and not someone who actually wants to engage in the policies of the European Union, but someone who just actually wants France to leave the EU. So not coming at it from a pragmatic perspective at all, not saying, what can Europe do for my country and how maybe we can work with Europe to get our own policies across the line or our own ideology across the line, which is what Maloney is doing with others. But Le Pen is sort of an obstructive force, a combative, a belligerent force, a person who has no regard for the EU, for what the EU was founded

for in the aftermath of the Second World War, or what it brings to the table in terms of economies, economics, but also around dignity, human rights, and so on. Le Pen doesn't engage with that at all. She's on the other side completely. That's why she's been out in the cold for so many years. Remember, Maloney was only

elected a year ago. And here she is, I think, arguably the strongest leader in the European Union, because, you know, the German and the French leaders are both pretty weakened after this election. Maloney's strong. Le Pen is still regarded as a fringe personality. But so they're not comparable. Who's voting for them? Well, the young people in France, I mean, if you look at the French elections,

over 30% of the people voted for Le Pen's party, which is twice Macron's vote, but also the Socialist and Renaissance party combined. But what we've seen is the young vote, actually voting for the AFD in Germany and also for Marine Le Pen's party. Because remember her star performer, her lead candidate for the European Parliament

was a 28-year-old TikTok superstar called Jordan Bardella, like number one MEP in the European Parliament for likes and so on and engagements on TikTok. This is all where it gets very fascinating. So Sarah, tell us a bit about these strategies for targeting younger voters, but particularly young female voters. Yeah, it's been really interesting to see

the far right broadly has been using housing and cost of living as a strong argument to attract the youth vote. One of my colleagues actually went to the Netherlands where we've seen Geert Wilders, possibly even more far right than some of these other figures that we've been discussing, performing extremely well among women and young voters by making this argument that, look, there are these huge housing shortages, we're letting in all these migrants, and if you just do the math, there isn't enough to go around.

And my colleague got some great quotes from people saying like, yeah, I mean, maybe these people are kind of racist. She even talked to one woman who is of a migrant background. But she said, look, I need an apartment and they're making a compelling case here. So I got to look out for number one. And very quickly, we need to mention another key figure in these EU elections, Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president. What does that role mean and how does she fit into the equation?

Shona? In a minute. She's the most probably going to be president of the commission again, by the looks of things. She has the numbers the centre will hold. And also it was a thought or a belief that maybe her position will be thwarted by Emmanuel Macron at the European Council.

Because remember, it's the member states that make all the decisions in the European Union, not the Parliament, not the Commission. It's the EU member states. And there was concerns that he might try to remove her because she's a little bit too close to Maloney, a little bit too to the right. But he has his own problems at the moment.

He, as we know, dissolved the Assembly. So he's going to have elections at the end of the month. So he's slightly weak. And so Ursula von der Leyen was sort of plucked out from obscurity for the rest of us. She was a former German defence minister, not without controversy. And she was brought to the position of European, President of the European Commission, voted for by the parliament, has superpowers.

But I mean, I think you can say she pretty much won this election because a lot. I'm not saying everybody would have voted for the EPP because of Ursula von der Leyen, but she's probably the most recognisable president of the European Commission because the EU has been very much in our lives over the past five years with the coronavirus pandemic, with her support for Ukraine and so on. So she is quite recognisable and ultimately powerful. And you know what? This is really important because the question is, is she going to move towards Georgia Maloney and therefore be really harsh when it comes to migration and maybe potentially diminish the Green Deal? Or will she try to stick with the centre and her traditional allies in the Greens, the socialists and the centre. But I think it's going to be quite flexible, actually. I don't think she's going

to do either. Shona, leave us with the cliffhanger, because when we find out, we will come back and discuss it again, because there's so much more to talk about. But we've run out of time. I think she's going to try to go with the centre, but I think it's going to be far too flexible. There's going to be compromise all the way. Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning, Sarah Wheaton and Shona Murray. 84844.

Now, Ireland is a country that's celebrated for its music scene, renowned for talents like C-Mac, Jazzy, The Cause, and of course Sinead O'Connor, who we've just heard there. But a new report has found that women make up just 2% of the most played songs on Irish radio in the past year. Well, Linda Coogan-Brien is the founder of Why Not Her, which champions gender diversity in the Irish culture sector. She's spearheaded this research and joins me now.

We couldn't believe it. 2%, Linda. It's terrible. And it's not just this year, unfortunately. It's the last probably 25 decades. How does this compare to the UK? It's dismal, though, it is. Yeah, it's dismal. Yeah, it's an appalling figure. How does this compare to the UK generally?

The UK is doing great. I mean, we started doing these reports five years ago, and the UK, we're a little bit similar to Ireland, but in the last three to four years, they have done an amazing shift. They have taken on board the data. They've talked amongst themselves. They talk to us. They've brought on board GEDI, gender equality, inclusion and diversity, kind of training in their teams, their staff. They've completely uprooted old uh methods and they're doing great but in ireland tumbleweed absolutely tumbleweed when we asked them can we help them we even sent out a gedi

model for free um you know because it was just all these excuses like men make better music than women you know we don't have to budget you weren't you weren't told that just you weren't told these things surely well you may well have been told these things why are the numbers so low do you know what i don't know i think it's just the old adage in ireland is invisible women and visible men you know it's we have historically put women in the backdrop and it has translated across to radio and it hasn't really shifted. We have spoken to as many authority figures as we can, such as the BAI, which was the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, which is now the new media commission, the commission, the man. And, you know, it's there. They're starting to tackle it. This is what we've been told now.

They're starting to tackle it and they're going we've been told now. They're starting to tackle it and they're going to do their own studies and then try to shift things along in the next few years. So it's all just kind of, you know, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. That's what we've been told. Well, when you do research like this and you see a number as low as 2%,

maybe that's when people sit up and pay attention because other sectors in Ireland, like business, politics, film, sport, they've all made gains in gender diversity. Why do you think the music industry is still stuck on this? I mean, that's good that you brought that up because in the sporting and business industries, like say, for instance, in the sport bodies,

they were prompted to make change because they withheld funding in that sector and it worked. So if we see in Ireland, if they're given these broadcasting licenses, they have to abide, you know, have to abide by measures that stipulated in the, you know, in the licenses. But they aren't. But if there was an authoritative figure that could intervene and say, right, you know, you actually you're not you're not

governing the standards up to what you're getting this license for then maybe it would change but they don't they don't they there's no accountability like we're talking to all these different organizations networks you know bodies collectives and they're just coming back to this government level as well and they're just kind of saying we'll try to do better. But there's nothing on an official level that's, you know, in terms of legislation, in terms of policy, in terms of gender quotas, in terms of active GDI programmes, there's nothing. Whereas in the UK, they did do that. So I don't have the answers as to why Ireland hasn't.

I mean, we'd love to know why, but unfortunately, it's just been categorically unshifted in terms of improvements. You don't have the answers as to why, but what would you like to, how can it change? I mean, rid themselves of unconscious bias. It's, you know, we have to be always very careful as to how we word press releases when we're sending out the data. And we never know from year to year what the data will be like but when we do we have to use these sensitive like unconscious bias and it's not unconscious bias anymore it's five years in and they've all been given the data so I think what should happen is something similar to the UK where

the station heads the program managers the playlist managers just get together and say right we're going to change this. This is the data. I mean, to think that we are giving all of this information to them, you know, going back 25 years, you know, from the charts, from how playlists are put together. And we have all this proof. Nothing gets opinion.

Like, we're very... Well, maybe this is the beginning of change, Linda. Maybe you've started it. Like I said, maybe that 2% figure is going to make people sit up and pay attention or maybe even hearing you this morning, let's hope. Linda, thank you so much for joining me. On Woman's Hour tomorrow, we're hoping to interview the leaders of all the main political parties ahead of the election.

That's across the next week. Tomorrow, I'm going to be speaking to Carla Denya, co-leader of the Green Party. So don't miss that, 10am tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.