Woman's Hour - Green Christmas Food, Gaia Vince, Glass Walls

Episode Date: December 2, 2019

As the EU declares a global ‘climate and environmental emergency’ will you be changing your food habits this Christmas ? Will you ditch the turkey for a more sustainable alternative, buy less and consider food miles when you shop? How will you reduce the amount of food waste over the holiday period? Jane is joined by Jack Monroe the food writer and campaigner, Journalist Nina Pullman and Jenny Costa from the company Rubies in the Rubble.Glass Walls is a stained-glass art installation which raises awareness of domestic abuse through art. The installation is now being exhibited around Scotland. Dr Emma Forbes is a lawyer who created Glass Walls and has spent the last three years speaking to women about their experience of the justice process and researching Scotland’s response to domestic abuse. She joins Jane to discuss along with Sarah, a domestic abuse survivor who got involved with the project. Male supremacy, for all its ubiquity, is surprisingly recent, according to the science writer Gaia Vince. In her new book ‘Transcendence’ she tells how there is compelling evidence that patriarchal societies date back less than 10,000 years. She joins Jane to talk about her research and her belief that humans probably evolved as an egalitarian species, remaining that way for hundreds of thousands of years.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Jack Monroe Interviewed guest: Nina Pullman Interviewed guest: Jenny Costa Interviewed guest: Emma Forbes Interviewed guest: Gaia Vince Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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This morning, is this the Christmas you're getting serious about your food choices, what you eat and where it comes from? We'll talk about that to kick us off for this week this morning. And later in the programme, the science writer Gaia Vince on why the patriarchy is a modern phenomenon, in fact, and nothing we should really be taking all that seriously. Well, we'll have a little bit of a chat about that towards the end of the programme. It is an early use of the word patriarchy during the course of the Women's Hour week, which we're very pleased. Always good to get the first one out of the way before five past ten on a Monday morning.

Now on to food and whether or not this is going to be possibly your first green Christmas as a family. The UN Secretary General has issued a dire warning. He did it last night and he said that the international effort to stop climate change has been utterly inadequate. He went on to say the point of no return is no longer over the horizon. It's in sight and it's hurtling towards us. So with that in mind, surely we should all start thinking seriously about getting greener food on our plates over the festive season. Jack Munro is here, the food writer and campaigner. Welcome. Good to see you, Jack. New book coming out in the new year called Veganish. Yes, that's the one. OK. The journalist Nina Pullman is the editor at WickedLeaks.com, which is an online magazine connected to Riverford,

who are the organic veg box delivery company. That's right. Good morning. And Jenny Costa is from Rubies in the Rubble. And Jenny, your company makes pickles and sauces from slightly wonky veg. That's right. Yeah. And all sorts of stuff.

Tomato ketchup, even. Tomato ketchup. We have vegan mayos, different range of relishes, chutneys, hot sauces. And you use the stuff that might otherwise go in a bin? Yeah, so we work direct with farmers and take fruit and veg that would be rejected or otherwise discarded to turn them into a relish

as a way of raising awareness of this need to value food as a precious resource. It's something that we should be cherishing. It's got so much energy that goes into it. And especially around Christmas time. Christmas time is such a time of celebrating, but it's also a time of thanking and being appreciative of what we've got. But the food you use might have come from anywhere, in fact.

It's just that it's being discarded because it's not completely perfect in shape or colour or whatever it might be. Yeah, and chutneys, relishes, pickles, they're a perfect way of preserving things. So it's a good vehicle to launch our brand with. OK. And Jack, where does this interest in perfection, in the appearance of food, come from? Because it is all nonsense, isn't it? It is all nonsense, isn't it? It is all nonsense. I mean, I don't really have much interest in perfect looking food, which might be a bit of a surprise for somebody whose Instagram said dinner as much as I do. But it is, and my family will testify, it's just a sort of slap it in a bowl, stick it

on the side, take a quick picture of it for the gram and off you go. And I think we've become as a society slightly obsessed with the idea that everything needs to be perfect looking, and Christmas is one of the worst times of year for that. You get all the glossy food magazines showcasing all these spreads in kitchens the size of aircraft hangers, and you're like, well, actually, for many people,

that's not a reality, and it can sort of make us all feel a bit inadequate, like, round the edges. Do you feel that this year, perhaps, even those people who in the past might have been resistant to all this are beginning to twig and get the message about food yeah i think that people are starting to realize that you know that there's so much surplus food that goes to waste that could be used in other ways there are supermarkets doing

their own wonky veg boxes and i think we're all just i mean i speak for myself but you know i think we're all just a bit at the end of our tether with this obsession with perfection. People are getting closer as well to understanding where food comes from and remembering that it's natural. It's governed by the weather. It's going to come out of the soil, all shapes and sizes. We're all shapes and sizes.

And food should be cherished and enjoyed just as, you know, the shape and wonkiness that comes out of it. Well, I'm going to say the word organic because nobody's mentioned it so far. Nina, obviously Riverford is all about delivering organic veg, but it does come at a price, doesn't it? Yeah, no, it's true. And there's no getting away from that, really. I mean, I do think that organic is probably the strongest

kind of guarantee of a sustainably produced food um and you know wherever possible if possible um it's a great way to eat sustainably um but not everybody has that option um so there's other ways to eat sustainably as well and I think a really good way is to even just start with a really basic question which is where where does it come from so that idea of provenance is a really good kind of entry point well actually you do say don't you on your website where everything has come from yeah yeah i think i think it's a really interesting question i mean i'm i'm really interested in it it takes me ages to do any kind of food shopping um i obsessively look at packs and you know the country of origin i think it's really fascinating but that's a kind of a good way into to being able

to buy and eat sustainably you know food miles is is part of it and that's a kind of a good way into to being able to buy and eat sustainably you know food miles is is part of it and that's a basic thing to work out um would it not be possible and i know your company is is doing good stuff but i mean just say to your customers if it's not british we're not going to supply it because i'm just looking here i'm sure the shallots are lovely from the netherlands but why why do people need shallots I mean you can just sure and there must be British shallots I mean what why yeah that's an interesting question um I mean it really depends on how the the produce is produced um you know you've got kind of um vegetables that are produced without using heat and and that's an important way of producing it so it's not as easy as just saying can all vegetables be produced without heat? Surely not.

Well, I mean, you can grow things in unheated polytunnels for sure, but it's that question of volume, you know, increasing yields and things, that is a way people do it. But, yeah, I think it's an interesting point. And, yeah, so, yeah. But middle-class customers, because that who we're let's be honest that's who Riverford are supplying and there are many many of them out there who are able to afford this stuff maybe it's up to those people to actually say you know what I can't have

fennel this week because it just isn't produced in Britain and I'm not going to be prepared to pay for it. Yeah I mean the idea of choice choice is something that we can all sort of get our heads around. I mean, reducing your own choice and using and buying what's there and what's available and what's in season, you might have to adapt what you're planning to make that night for dinner. I mean, that's something I've had to do at Riverford. We're really lucky. There's a lot of veg that's left over from the boxes and that's given to staff for free at the end of the day. And it's amazing. It's great. But you have to kind of change your mindset a little bit because you go into this

room and it's not so much what you you want and you choose you know you don't choose based on what you want you choose based on what's there and it's quite a mindset change actually so you're suddenly like I've got all this veg what should I make with it rather than I want to make this meal what should I go and buy for it well that's where I want to bring you in Jack because first of all that would be great. I mean, perhaps those of us who've got electricity or gas and can heat our homes and maybe even know how to cook would be able to conjure something up with some leftover veg.

But if you don't have the power in your home or you're worried about it and you don't have the necessary skills through no fault of your own, what do you do then? Well, I was just thinking, actually, as Nina was talking about going into a room and um it's not what you want it's what's available to you that the there aren't that many sort of differences between the riverford um surplus fruit and veg that they give away to their staff and my own experiences of being a food bank user although mine was sort of dented tins of beans not like bulbs of fennel which i would have sort of sold my nan for at the time sorry nan um but

there's it comes down to food being about choices and for a lot of people they don't have choices about what they eat and at christmas that seems to be hammered home more than ever like you get all the adverts on the telly of people's, like, glossy Christmas spreads, and there's this societal expectation that we're all going to sit down to a massive roast dinner. But for some people, that's not an option, because they either don't have the food available, don't have the money to buy it, or don't have the, like, power to stick your oven on for three hours to cook this great big bird and um i've been in that situation myself and i can say it it's not doesn't make for a pretty or newsworthy christmas day it's quite grim and miserable sorry no i'm sure it is we have to bear that in mind that is the reality for some people um meat is

all meat necessarily bad and should we just stop eating red meat in particular oh you're looking at me or anyone with a view on that but what's your stance on that because your new book is called veganish it's called veganish because i'm um i'm of the mindset that if we all make a few small changes the changes that the um may well describe as inadequate but if we all make a few small changes to our diet um then they add up to quite a big difference globally so i'm not saying that people need to go vegan full-time that would be hypocritical because i'm certainly not but we could all incorporate more plant-based stuff into our diets and that's quite simple to do if you

just make a few simple switches and you have to meet presumably varies I mean British red meat would be better for the planet than white I don't know a chicken brought from somewhere else presumably I mean it's all about food miles isn't it presumably I haven't looked that deeply into it I've just gone for what would you say less of it yeah okay Nina food miles is part of it but um it's it's like you say and I agree with Jack it's definitely not binary i would never say that meat is bad and and plant-based food is is good um i mean it's true that there is a need to reduce intensively um farmed meat consumption overall um but within that it's hugely complex um so yeah other than food mouths i'd say what the animal is fed is really important um and that's probably the biggest kind of environmental impact

for a lot of the meat that we consume here in the UK. So white meat, for example, chicken and pork, if it's intensively farmed, it's often fed on GM grain or soy that's grown in the Amazon. So it's not as simple as switching away from red meat. And it's true that in Britain as well, there's a lot of sustainable red meat farmers. So, I mean, I see it see it personally I'm not a vegetarian but I eat meat maybe once once a month if that and so pretty much veggie and if I do eat it I try and buy organics I do think it is

that the highest guarantee you can get and if you aren't going to eat it that often you can sort of use it as a treat and you've got that little bit extra money to spend on it just a couple of comments from the listeners michael says a vegan lifestyle is the only way forward not only for the planet but for our health and most of all of course for the planet um that's a bigger issue uh laura um we are keen to do but to do a greener christmas but the wider family not so enthusiastic definitely facing some resistance to anything other than the christmas ham, egg and chips and then the traditional turkey. I think tradition plays such a large role

that people struggle to omit some foods from the menu. I would rather make veg the main player. What do you want to say about that, Jack? I mean, aren't we all crying out for an excuse to shove the turkey off the Christmas table anyway? It's ghastly. It really is. I would much rather have two good-sized chickens than a turkey any day of the week because turkey's just awful.

Sorry, turkeys, but you just are. So if you can make a decent plant-based substitute for it, then by all means, I would much rather have a really good, juicy nut roast that's nice and crispy on the outside and nice and juicy on the inside than some dead, dry old bird sitting in the corner. I mean, again, it comes down to ability. I am that dry. No.

If you can make an absolutely brilliant nut roast, then wonderful. But, you know, I'm not sure I can and I'm not sure everybody can. I can help you, Jane. Oh, brilliant. Okay, well, I'll help you. Come round Christmas morning about half eight. I know I'm not sure I can and I'm not sure I could help you Jane come around Christmas morning about half eight I think I'm quite busy Christmas day but I can definitely help you in that department I'm a nut rice champion thank you Kate on Twitter says Christmas curry or a stew in one pot and donate big dinner monies to charity yeah that's that's definitely one option waste I was only saying yesterday, I thought of you, Jenny,

because I had a really slightly rank-looking cauliflower in the fridge and I didn't put it in the bin, although I nearly did. I stuck it in the oven and I roasted it and it was all right. That's what we should all be doing. Roasted cauliflower is coming back. It's great. What do you mean coming back? When was Britain at peak roasted cauliflower?

Poor roasted cauliflower though, people weren't looking forward to it and suddenly now people talk about cauliflower steak, which is quite a change. Do you know what, they do talk about cauliflower steak and I think we have to keep that real. It isn't a substitute for steak, is it? It's not quite. No, okay. But what are the things you can do with, I don't know, say you've got, I always have celery leftover, parsnips, couple of carrots. What honestly can you do with that? There's so many things. I think Christmas time is a time to get creative as well with leftovers. There's often you finish your Christmas dinner and no one's wanting to look at another bit of turkey or another roast veg. But you can easily blend them up, create a nice winter soup with them,

freeze them for another time, everything from the Christmas meal. And I actually love the Christmas meal because it's so seasonal. Most of the things that are in Christmas meal are at least in season. You can buy from a good local source if you can. But there is ways that you can create a soup, you can create a nice stew from things. I'm a big fan of using your freezer. And if you're like me and your freezer's chock-a-block most of the year, making sure that now in the lead up to Christmas you're making space in that freezer,

taking some of it out, utilising it now, so that when you come to Christmas Day, if you have got leftovers of turkey, pop it in the freezer. If you've got leftovers of all those vegetables as well, create a soup, blitz them up, put it in a Tupperware for later on. I know you wanted to say something, Jack. I tend to take all my Christmas Day leftovers and chuck them in a pie. So you just get some ready-made shortcrust pastry

and Christmas morning, just line a pie dish with it so it's ready to go at the end of the day just scrape all the leftovers into it bung a load of pesto or other gravy over the top of it stick a lid on it and the next day

you can all just eat cold cuts of pie and it's really simple I mean that sounds great by the way but I am aware that it's an absence a lack of time that actually dominates particularly to be realistic the lives of working women and women working from home, wherever they might be working.

How much time have we got to look at the label on a... whatever it might be, and then say, well, I don't know whether I think I'll get the other green beans because these are from... I mean, honestly, is that realistic? I think labels are a bit of a... Labels on fruit and veg are a bit of a well I take them with a punch of salt

to be honest in fact I rarely look at them I really don't I mean for a start try and buy loose if you can so fruit and veg so don't buy any veg in packaging well if you can obviously loose is better

less plastic less packaging and then you haven't got any dates to deal with if you're going to look at the date just don don't bother because it's not gonna yeah yeah exactly if it's in the fridge or you know if it's soft it's not not necessarily off i mean i'm a bit obsessive i'd rarely throw anything out i'll put put it in whatever stir fry soup um you know chop bits off the end and carry on thank you well take that through life um thank you all very much nina and jenny and jack jack i have to say a lot of people sarah can we have that juicy nut roast recipe please yes if you go on my website which is jack monroe.com and type nut roast into the

search bar you should get it if i've forgotten to upload it then it'll be there by midday good stuff thank you very much really appreciate appreciate it. Thanks to Jack Munro, Nina Pullman and Jenny Costa and your thoughts on that, of course, and your ideas. If you've got any absolute Christmas classics from your family that aren't necessarily the traditional stuff, we would appreciate hearing from you. You can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour. Now, regular listeners will know the name Sally Challen. She was released from prison earlier this year after her conviction for the murder of her husband

was reduced to manslaughter. Now, the organisation Justice for Women had campaigned for her after she'd been through decades of coercive control. That, of course, was made illegal in 2015. Now, Justice for Women are trying to help two other women challenging their murder convictions. Harriet Wistrich is here, human rights lawyer and founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Harriet, tell us first of all about these two women. Okay, so they're both women who were convicted of the murder of their boyfriends. They're both quite young women and they both got serving life sentences. Both of them were

in very violent relationships. Farisha Martin is her, she is having a permission to appeal hearing tomorrow morning and she is arguing that the history of the violence and the coercive and controlling behaviour she was subjected to in that relationship impacted on her mental state. None of this was picked up properly by her lawyers representing her at trial. And had it been, she would have been, she should have at least had a partial defence to murder, loss of control probably probably or diminished responsibility. She has now been diagnosed with severe PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, as a consequence of the violence she was subjected to. is going to a full appeal hearing next week on the 10th of December. This is a young woman named Emma Jane Magson.

She was in a violent relationship. And during the course of a violent row, she stabbed the deceased. And she is arguing also that there was evidence in relation to her mental state, which was impacted by not only the violence she suffered, but also a history of violence and neglect that she suffered from childhood, was a relevant factor that wasn't sufficiently considered at the time of the trial. And has all this been made possible,

first of all, by what happened to Sally Challen, obviously largely not entirely through the work of your organisation, is that the Sally Challen judgment and the recognition of coercive controlling behavior fits also well with her case. So it strengthens basically her grounds of appeal, which were already, we felt, quite strong. And it's always very, very difficult to appeal convictions. The court doesn't like to look at cases again if a jury have returned a verdict. In simple terms, why don't they? Because they don't want everybody reopening their cases again and again. And they're very, very tight on it. So they'll only do it where they think something has gone seriously wrong in the trial

or where some evidence has emerged, where there's a reasonable explanation as to why it couldn't have been adduced at the time, but now is available. For example, in Farisha's case, there is now evidence through psychiatric evidence of the post-traumatic stress disorder. Now, she tried to describe the violence she was subjected to. It wasn't picked up properly. She was subjected, for example, to repeated rape, but insofar as she described it, and her lawyers didn't really draw it out,

she said, well, he used to make me have sex when I didn't want it. So she didn't use the word rape. And if it's not properly understood that isn't a term that's picked up. Of course Sally Challen has been on Woman's Hour. She's been through an extraordinarily difficult experience. That goes without saying. But she's also

an articulate middle class woman. I don't know about Farisya and Emma Jane but I would and they're certainly younger than Sally. They're only young women. They are different life stories, different experiences. Very, very different. I mean, Farucia Martin is a mixed race woman from Liverpool, working class, family background. She was only, I think, about 22 at the time. She has two little children. And she, so in many ways, her life story couldn't be more different and emma j

magson also from a a working class background uh in the midlands um and these factors are not insignificant are they well um they are there are all sorts of different reasons why women are um uh you know kind of judged or condemned uh in within the criminal justice system and why they have particular barriers that they have to overcome and in some ways Sally had had a barrier because people said well you were well off you were privileged why did you stay for for Aisha you know she was she was frightened of telling the police or social services about her situation because she feared for example her children would be removed. And so there was very, very different context.

But what's quite interesting about these cases and other cases that justice for women have looked at is that actually women seem to be discriminated against or suffer, you know, are not able to persuade the criminal justice system that the victim, that the fact of the violence they've experienced is, you know, a significant factor that should mitigate their offences. And they can come from any background. And we have a whole series of other cases that we're looking at at the moment. There's a lot of women serving life sentences, which is exactly what Sally Challenalon uh said when she oh yes she did she made that clear on during an interview on this program there were other women like her in prison but perhaps not with some of her advantages well different advantages different different disadvantages yeah it's a very mixed

picture thank you so much harriet for coming in appreciate I appreciate it. And the Sally Challen case, the case of Sally Challen in fact, is a BBC Two documentary and it's going to be on BBC Two at nine o'clock on December the 9th if you want to see that BBC documentary. December the 9th, nine o'clock BBC Two. Thank you very much Harriet. Now Glass Walls is a

stained glass art installation which is trying to raise awareness of domestic abuse. It was unveiled at the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday of last week and is now going to be exhibited around Scotland. The creator is Dr Emma Forbes. She is a lawyer who spent the last three years talking to women about their experience

of the justice process and researching Scotland's response to domestic abuse. Sarah is a domestic violence survivor. You'll hear from Sarah in a moment or two but first of all Emma told me why she wanted to get involved in the project. I did a PhD on how victim survivors of domestic abuse experience going to court and giving evidence and I was aware of the fact that not very many people are going to read a dusty tome of words and I wanted to translate it to as wide an audience as possible. There are some very simple messages that I felt

should be out in the public domain and I wanted to raise awareness in a creative way. I'm sure you learned a great deal from doing that PhD. Can you just sum up the thoughts and the feelings of the people that you spoke to? I interviewed over 30 women about their experiences and it tells their story from the point of crisis when someone phones the police through to the ultimate conclusion of the court case. For some, that's a trial. For some, it isn't. For some, the focus is on the civil proceedings, not the criminal.

And juxtaposed to that, I told Scotland's story, so I created a timeline of Scotland's response to domestic abuse from the opening of the first refuge in 1973 through to the current parliamentary session. One shows amazing, wonderful progress that we can be very proud of, and the other shows a stuttering process of being left to wait for long periods of time. And I think what we don't stop to appreciate is that we now have brilliant training on the dynamics of domestic abuse, about understanding that it's more than hitting and punching and kicking, that it's emotional abuse, financial abuse, psychological abuse. We even understand a little of the fact that it's traumatic to go to court and speak about intimate experiences.

But we think that waiting is something we all experience. We sat here this morning for a few minutes waiting before we went on air. You will maybe wait for something later today. It's something we all do. It's banal. It's boring. It's an inconvenience. What we don't appreciate is the trauma attached to that waiting for people, women, waiting to go to court and give that intimate evidence of what has happened to them.

And you worked as a prosecutor, didn't you? Yes, I still do. And your work was in the domestic abuse courts in Scotland? Yes, some of the time, yes. There's something about glass art, I don't know, that makes all this more profound, really, because we associate, I suppose, with stained glass windows and with churches and with being all reverential.

It's a very particular sort of art, isn't it? It is, yes. The reason for that is twofold. One is that Glass Walls, the title of the exhibition, is the title of the concluding chapter of my thesis because I felt that we had gone, in that timeline, we've gone from domestic abuse being behind closed doors to being out in the open and public. We're encouraging women to come forward to tell their stories of what has happened. But often there are sinister and awful examples of coercive control ongoing through the court process.

And we're all working very hard as court professionals, police, judges, prosecutors. We think we're doing a good job because we're trying really hard and we think we're listening. But when we're not recognising ongoing abuse through that process then women start to feel a bit crazy and like they're going mad because they're not being heard and so I describe that as being behind a glass wall because I identified those barriers as being gendered and structural but also you make a good point about the churches because we spoke a lot about how to convey this message and when women don't feel heard,

we thought, well, let's go to a really simple medium and historically stories were told in church windows, they were told on glass before people could read and write and very simple messages can be conveyed on glass. And Sarah, when you hear Emma describing the process and what it's like for women to go through it, does it ring true to you? Yes, very much.

Can you tell us a little bit about your own experience of coercive control? My case took at least a year to go to court and it was pretty horrific just waiting and having to turn up at court and be told that it's been cancelled. You could be told at three o'clock in the afternoon after sitting there the whole day you're nervous, you're scared, you don't know what's in front of you. You've also got your witnesses as well that have to sit there with you

and then be told, oh, you can just go home because it's not getting heard today. My case was domestic abuse via telecommunications. He actually phoned me up and threatened my life. I got told lots of times that he wouldn't get found guilty, he wouldn't get a charge for it, it wasn't that serious. When the police came out, they told me it wasn't that serious, but they would look into it. So it was really, really difficult,

and it was also difficult on all of my children as well, because they had to watch me going through that. And also my middle child had to give evidence in court. So she had the whole experience that I had. Can I just ask you, Emma, why is the court system the way it is? Why do women like Sarah have to suffer delays and confusion? The court system is far more responsive than it ever has been in the past and we're moving forward all the time. There are welcome developments each and every week. Only last week in Glasgow a new bespoke centre was opened up so that more vulnerable witnesses and children can give evidence remotely and in advance of the trial.

These are all welcome developments but as long as we don't stop to think about the emotional repercussions and we don't recognise the human element in how traumatic it is to wait for court, how uncomfortable and traumatic it is to wait at court, and how confusing the whole process is, one of the things that I found in my research was that lots of agencies, and I include third sector agencies in this, the independent domestic abuse advocacy services, support services, many focus on providing support and information, case-specific information and support, around when there's a call to the police, when somebody is remanded in custody, when somebody gets bail,

when there is a trial, when there is an adjournment. These are what I call the punctuation marks in the process. They're marked points and we're all working very hard, we're all very busy and we don't notice the fact that actually for Sarah or for somebody else the punctuation marks are your child's birthday, they are the end of term, it's Christmas Day, it's other life events, their punctuation marks are different from the court processes and so the communication is not aligned. I think that there could be more done to make communication a little bit more victim-centred. But just to be clear, it's not a lack of resources or a lack of willingness on the part of, for example, the politicians, the SNP in this case, who are running Scotland? What is it? What's at the core of the delays

that people like Sarah have to go through? So yes, it's the SNP at the moment. But if you look back through the history of the Scottish Parliament, we had a Labour government to begin with. We now have SNP. We've had coalitions in between. Throughout the very first debate in the Scottish Parliament was on domestic abuse and it has been on cross-party on the Scottish government's agenda throughout that 20-year period which is really welcome but I think as long as we have the length of time we do until trial at the moment which is obviously caught up in resources the wait for court is far too long but not only that even if you shorten that journey time, any wait's going to feel long if you don't communicate clearly.

Can you just explain to us, Sarah, actually, how you could be involved in the project itself, in the fantastic stained glass? I got involved through the Daisy project, and it was, let's learn something different, let's do something to take our mind off our other problems that we have. It was amazing. I have a phobia against glass.

And I was very, very frightened. Can you just take, sorry, you've got a phobia about glass? About glass. Being cut by glass? I feel through a glass door, yeah. Right, OK. So I've always had a phobia about glass. And this was a very, very big challenge for me.

What exactly were you able to do? We all got individual pieces of glass to draw a daisy and we had to etch it out and then paint it. And Charlie took it away, got it fired, he brought it back. It was a process of, I think it was three or four times we had to paint over it and have it fired. And then we coloured it and he took it away and he fired it again and the end product was what we

saw when we went to Parliament the other day and he had it all framed but I'd never looked at a church or stained glass and thought oh I could do that but now I look at it and think I've done that and it's really quite good and I'm sure it's more than quite good

that's a real typical bit of female understatement there. What about the thoughts that you had about domestic abuse and coercive control? I gather they were part of the exhibition or are part of the exhibition as well. Yeah, they are. A lot of people said it was very powerful. When we went to Parliament the other week and we saw it for the first time, there was a lot of people who had tears in their eyes because it tells a story and it is

very, very powerful to look at it and see what it is and what it means to us. It means that we want to be heard and I think with that it does help. Emma, where does the exhibition move on to next? It was in the Scottish Parliament last week.

There are three main stained glass panels that have been made, shows Scotland's response to domestic abuse through the eyes of one woman in three large panels. And then alongside that are all the daisies that the women, including Sarah, made with my dad over the last year of art classes. And it's going into Glasgow City Chambers today right where it will be open to the public until Friday. Well that is Dr Emma Forbes and you also heard from Sarah who

is a survivor of domestic violence and it's worth saying that it was Emma's dad as she said there Charlie Proven who helped the women make that stained glass and Charlie would be flattered I'm told to have his name mentioned. So, Charlie, well done to you for helping out, because it is really lovely, that stained glass. And you can see it on the Woman's Hour Twitter, at BBC Woman's Hour. If you don't already follow us, make sure you do from now.

Now, on Christmas Day, Woman's Hour will be here, of course, and we're looking for stories about changing Christmas traditions. So, have you changed yours? Have you had to? And if so, how easy was it to make that change? And I did mention earlier the tweet from a listener who said, look, we're happy to do a greener Christmas and have maybe more vegetarian dishes, but the family want things to be the way they always are. And that can often be the case.

We are quite joined at the hip to our Christmas traditions aren't we? It can be hard to change things but do tell us if you have done or why you've had to and what it was like when you did do it. That's via the website please bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour and just to say Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru will be on the programme tomorrow and so will Sian Berry, one of the co-leaders of the Green Party. And on Wednesday, the Women's Hour election debate is 90 minutes of political chat from 10 o'clock. You can call on 03700 100 444 from 8.30 that morning. My guests will include a leading Conservative representative, we've got Diane Abbott for Labour, Dr Sarah Wollaston for the Liberal Democrats,

Deirdre Brock of the SNP and the Brexit Party MEP Belinda de Lucy. All live for 90 minutes election chat on Wednesday morning here on Woman's Hour. Now, I did promise we'd talk about the patriarchy and we are going to talk about it in the company of the brilliant science writer Gaia Vince, who's here in her new book, Transcendence.

Basically, Gaia, you're telling us we new book Transcendence. Basically Gaia you're telling us we don't need to get too worried about the patriarchy because it's actually quite new. Well no I would say let's get very worried about the patriarchy Jane because why are we living in this very unjust society? It is very new. We look around and we think this is normal because it's normal for us but it's only normal recently. Well you is normal because it's normal for us. But it's only normal recently. You say that, but it was normal for our great, great, great, great grandmothers too, wasn't it? So I know in proper terms, it's relatively recent, but not in human terms, not really. Well, it depends on your perspective, of course.

And humans have been, we evolved 300,000 years ago. And what my book really does is look at this long stretch of evolution, and then ask this really big question. Who are we? What makes us special? What makes us different from all the other animals? Can we start then with humans as animals? Why are we in charge of the planet? Well, so exactly, why are we in charge of the planet? And that's because our evolution took a completely different route. So all the other animals adapt themselves via genetics. You'll know all about Charles Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is we all adapt ourselves to our environment. Well, humans

did something very different. We adapt our environment to ourselves. And we use culture to do that. So we've, we have this very special form of culture, which is cumulative cultural evolution, which is very, very long, long winded way of saying that our cultures, our behaviours, our tools, you were talking just a minute ago about Christmas traditions. Well, we have Christmas traditions, because they're passed down from our mothers, from our grandmothers, our great grandmothers and so on. And we learn the way of doing it. We learn the way of having our Christmas. Well, we learn the way of doing everything from how we get our food to how we behave, how we're behaving right now. You know,

we couldn't have two chimpanzees sitting here. We'd be probably attacking each other because we're not related. So, but I'm getting on very well with you, Jane, because humans do something that other animals don't do. Which is? Which is get on with people that are strangers. And we get on so well. We collaborate in such an amazing way that instead of our own individual survival being dependent on us and how adapted we are and how instinctive it is

for us to survive in our environment we can rely on each other okay so why have we allowed men to take the lead or the male of the species to take the lead oh you're pulling a face now gone yes maybe we're not getting on that well anymore no well it isn't it annoying because actually our evolution it's very very likely that we evolved as an egalitarian society, egalitarian species. And if you look at a lot of some indigenous societies, especially ones that don't farm, that are hunter gatherers, they are very egalitarian. And that's not to say that men and women have exactly the same roles, but they do. They do. They do have equal say and say, where they live and they're respected equally. But it's likely that when agriculture started, which I know you're saying it's a long time ago,

but in evolutionary terms, it's a blink of an eye. It's really very recent. When agriculture emerged, and it depends on the type of agriculture so plow-based agriculture is much more sexist and those societies are much more patriarchal even if they now live in cities because we copy each other generation after generation that's how we learn how to behave so patriarchal societies developed pretty much with plough agriculture. Okay, so brute force was simply a male advantage, a physiological male advantage, and there was nothing we could do. Let's be positive. Presumably, we're still evolving. So if we continue to evolve, there is no reason why this will apply a million years from now. No, and there have been some great steps towards a more egalitarian society.

In some countries and in some cultures. Yes, yes. But generally, even things like death in childbirth has improved and infant mortality. And a lot of this is to do with a woman's role in society, as well as advances in medicine. And it's really important, I think. So I wrote this book as a woman. And so I'm perhaps a bit more aware of the role that women have played in our evolution. Because if you look at a lot of these big history books, you get this impression that basically men did everything and women are so sidelined, you get this impression that basically men did everything and women are so sidelined, you don't really hear about them. But it's very likely that cave

paintings were done by women, for example. If you look at the handprint size, they're very likely to have been women. A lot of the tools that we see, they weren't male tools, they were used by women and they were made by women whether we're talking about hunting tools or whatever and if you look at our evolution it's it's because the reason one of the reasons we are so collaborative is because even childbirth right is a collaborative effort a woman a human mother is an animal that cannot give birth alone because our species has to, our infant has to do a double turn inside the birth canal to come out, which is very dangerous for mother and child. So these collaborations that women formed in pregnancy and childbirth really underpin our

whole social collaboration. I mean, isn't it possible that within the next, I don't know how many years, women will not give birth, that babies will be cultivated or grown outside? It's perfectly possible, but that won't happen as an individual doing it on their own. No, but will that not threaten the status of women as the givers of birth? I't know i'm just well um i i mean they they might not have that role anymore but hopefully they will have many many other roles and and you know women don't necessarily want to be defined only by the fact that that's their status absolutely certainly i don't but no nor do i she said hastily carry on no No, so I think women's roles are changing. We can change that. And it's to do with recognising that humans succeed.

The kind of underpinning message of this book, I think, is that we succeed when we collaborate and we collaborate best when we include a massive diversity of mindsets, of thoughts, of ways of looking at the world and of ways of doing things. And if we exclude from that 50 percent of the population in decision making and in solving some of these huge problems, whether it's science or medicine or sport or childcare or whatever, then we are excluding something very important from our toolbox, from our human toolbox. And we are facing at the moment these huge challenges, these huge environmental challenges, social challenges. And so we need to include women, we need to include

a diversity of mindsets from everywhere. That's just a brief glimpse into the brilliant mind of the science writer Gaia Vince on Woman's Hour this morning and her book is called Transcendence. This is from Jack. I'm sorry but I am really seething about what I've just heard on the programme. You don't need to be sorry Jack, honestly, let it all out. Jack says I've worked more or less in a low-paid job for more or less 20 years and never ever failed to produce a home cooked meal from scratch for my family. Christmas is a time of celebration and family meals and I love listening to Woman's Hour having very recently retired but honestly I sometimes think that you don't cater for the ordinary women who can cook, can provide cheap locally sourced food and yes

even grow their own on allotments etc. We're not stupid, we shop as green and local as we can and actually do use up our leftovers. My free range turkey is from a nearby farm and will feed us for months once the feast is over. Jack, yes, I mean, I absolutely take your point. And I suspect that many of our more mature listeners can do all the things you outline. But I guess it's people from younger generations and I'm including myself I'm a bit younger I'm including myself and indeed women in their 30s and 40s and obviously not just women because there are plenty of men who are in a position where they are the ones cooking the meals. Kate emailed to say it gladdens my heart that the veggie greener approach has become almost

mainstream we have as a wider family been gradually giving up meat over the last five years It saddens my heart that the veggie greener approach has become almost mainstream. We have as a wider family been gradually giving up meat over the last five years and Christmas lunch now has to provide a no meat option. Last year we were in the majority, this year only one person will need, in quotes, turkey. Our choice of dish has moved on from nut roast to pie and we always make Anna Jones's celeriac and sweet garlic pie, which is sublime, and a green stuffing from an old recipe by Jocelyn Dimbleby. Funnily enough, we usually have to share with the meat eaters. Yeah, they like to, when they see how gorgeous the vegetarian stuff is,

they want to get involved, don't they? Sarah says, there are so many ways to use leftovers often better than the meal itself with turkey i make a curry or turkey divan divan recipes can be found on the internet but i use either spinach or broccoli a cheese sauce and often rice turkey tetrazzini is another good one. I always make soup with the carcass. You just put it in a large pot and boil it up with celery and onion and everything else. It can simmer for an hour or two until all the leftover veg can go in. It really doesn't take much time. Delia has an excellent Stilton soup recipe for leftover cheese.

We actually enjoy turkey cold on Boxing Day with the chutneys and the pickles. It's actually more tasty the next day don't overcook don't overcook a turkey beg sarah i can't believe i'm saying this on what is it december the 2nd uh but actually i was with a friend and a friend came around yesterday and while she was with me her mother-in-law rang to ask what she should make for her vegetarian grandchildren on Christmas Day. And I actually thought my friend was quite tolerant in the circumstances. She did gently point out that it was only the 1st of December when she made the call.

But anyway, cauliflower cheese was the solution, if you're interested, which you probably weren't. Tessa says, it's good to hear a rounded discussion this morning about food waste. But I'm really frustrated by this demonisation of meat and dairy. Humans have evolved over thousands of years to eat meat. It is essential to our very being. Fat from animals contains nutrients that you can't get from plants and they're essential for brain development and function, sight and any number of other functions. Animal fat doesn't give you high cholesterol. The main problem is carbs and sugars and the amount of processed foods that people eat. I agree we should all eat higher welfare meat, i.e. buy British, says Tessa. Serge, I was amazed that nobody mentioned the fact that cattle, whether British or foreign, let go of a lot of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, during their lives.

Perhaps there's still time to stick it in. Well, consider it stuck in. I've just done it. And from an anonymous listener, I volunteer at a food bank in southeast London. Many of our visitors don't even have access to a tin opener. They only take pull ring tins, let alone cooking facilities. The green organic debate is so far out of reach for so many people. It's a middle class and narrow debate. Right, well, to be fair to me, for once, I did say that reasonably early on in the discussion. But I mean, that really makes you

think, doesn't it, that people going to a food bank haven't got access to a tin opener so they are sourcing the tins with the pull rings on which I guess is a point to those of us who through sheer good fortune are able to give to food banks maybe we should make sure that we do give the tins

with the ring pulls on right thank you very much for listening tomorrow's programme is going to be presented by Tina Dehealy and her guests include Liz Saville-Roberts of Plied Cymru and Sian Berry of the Green Party. Here's a question. A man escapes from one of the world's most brutal dictatorships. He's risked everything to do it.

But once he's free, he digs a hole and he tunnels straight back in again. Why? Find out in Tunnel 29, a new 10-part podcast series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Helena Merriman. To subscribe, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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