Woman's Hour - Greenham Common, Afghan Refugee Resettlement, Sarah Rainsford, Rebecca Welch

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

Forty years ago this week, 36 people from a campaign group called Women for Life on Earth marched from Cardiff to the Greenham Common RAF base in Newbury in Berkshire to protest against the British government allowing US nuclear missiles on British soil. They stayed there for almost 20 years. Last week another group set-out from Cardiff to follow the route of the original protesters. We speak to Rebecca Mordan and Sue Say live from their walk.For the last few weeks on Woman's Hour, we've been following the desperate efforts of those trying to flee Afghanistan. As the government sets out details of what it is calling ‘Operation Warm Welcome’ - its scheme to resettle recently arrived Afghan refugees- we hear from Louise Calvey of Refugee Action, on what is currently being done currently, and what we can do to help. Sarah Rainsford - BBC Moscow correspondent, has been living in and reporting on Russia for over two decades. On the 10th August, she was told that she was being barred indefinitely 'for the protection of the security of Russia' - and allowed into the country for the sole purpose of packing up her life and leaving. But why her? And what chance, if any, does she now have of returning? She joins Emma to discuss.Rebecca Welch has become the first female referee to be added to the English Football League's national group list for men's football. She became the first woman to officiate an EFL match in April when she took charge of Harrogate's 2-0 League Two defeat to Port Vale, but said it was never her plan to officiate, only playing football for fun. She speaks to Emma live.Presented by Emma Barnett Produced by Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to today's programme, where we're going to discuss just that, welcomes. What does a warm welcome actually mean? The government has named the Afghan evacuation, which has seen 15,000 Afghans arrive here in the last fortnight, 8,000 of them former British government employees, Operation Warm Welcome. Presently, 10,000 Afghan refugees are in quarantine hotels as part of what a minister has described this morning as the largest evacuation scheme in living memory. On today's programme you're going to hear how to help if you want to, if you feel you can, what to do, crucially what not to do, but also as the government announces additional funds to help

people settle and build a new life, we're going to get to grips with some of the challenges. What does a warm welcome look like from where you're listening? 84844 is the number you need to text, or get in touch with me on social media over at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email me with your views and experiences through our website. In terms of the images we've seen in this country, we've seen a lot of people. The photos predominantly, it seems to be featuring groups of women sorting clothes and donated supplies in baby banks as donations flood into halls, charities, community spaces.

You know, homes to help to live and, you know, give people space and shelter is one way. Help with English, settling into schools, helping people sign up with doctors. These are some of the ways that people are asking about if they can help and have done in the past with others. Perhaps your family have helped refugees before or are refugees. But beyond the public's efforts, what is needed from the government to make this work? I'm very interested to hear your view on that. We know only one in three councils in England have signed up at the moment to take Afghan refugees.

Is that really where you want to see the action? I should say at this point, it's not a debate about whether this should be happening or not. It is happening. Of course, you can share your views on that. But these people are here. They are here right now. And as I say, if you think about that, 10,000 refugees right now in this country are in quarantine hotels, the largest evacuation scheme in living memory. Apparently, it's a warm welcome. Operation Warm Welcome is the name given by the government. But will it be that? Do let me know your take on this. 84844. We'll be hearing from somebody who's on the ground actually from Afghanistan themselves, came here as a very young girl who's now working as a counsellor to talk about some of those

challenges. We'll also be hearing from someone who's been at one of the airports at Birmingham airport, meeting people as they arrive who can give some experience there and some help really about what help is or isn't needed. But what is it looking like a warm welcome from where you sit at bbc women's are on social media or email us via the website also on today's program from working as an nhs administrator to becoming the first female referee to officiate a men's english football league match i'll be talking to rebecca welch and as two women recreate the march to become what became i I should say, Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp,

40 years on from one of the longest and most famous examples of feminist protest, what did we learn? We'll be catching up with them and others on their walk to consider that and also perhaps any lessons still relevant today that other protesters are using at the moment. But for the last three weeks here on Woman's Hour, we've been following the desperate efforts of those trying to flee Afghanistan. We've heard and spoken to women who fear for their lives under Taliban rule

and have covered the stories of how many have tried to leave their homes for good to start new lives in other countries. We've also been talking to some of the people who've been trying to help them. Throughout all of this, you have been writing in in your droves, asking what you can do. Donations, offering rooms, sending money. And that's what we're going to address today. This morning, the government has set out more details of Operation Warm Welcome, the scheme to resettle thousands of Afghan refugees.

All of those who have arrived on the Afghan relocations and assistance policy, the Arabs scheme, are helping those who helped the British military and UK government in Afghanistan will be given immediate indefinite leave to remain. and a £5 million top-up for councils in England, Wales and Scotland to support and meet the costs and help meet the costs of renting properties. Here's the Minister for Overseeing Afghan Resettlement, Victoria Atkins, speaking earlier on the Today programme. We have 10,000 people who are in quarantine hotels at the moment. This is the largest ever evacuation scheme in living memory and so it is going to take government and local government and charities and local communities a bit of time to put this framework in place but that is what we're working on and so today's announcements not just the indefinite leave to remain but also our determination to help children start their education again, the extra funding for them to support them at school, the funding for adults to learn English,

those who don't speak English well. Also, the promises in relation to housing and the discretionary pot of funding that we're giving to councils. This is all part of an enormous exercise in integration. And just to remember that the majority of the 20,000 who will come here over the coming years will be women and children. So what does happen next for those who've recently arrived in the UK? Louise Calvey, Head of Services and Safeguarding for the charity Refugee Action, joins us. She was at Birmingham Airport until the last flight landed on Sunday.

Louise, first of all, how was that? I'm not sure I can put it into words, to be honest. I've done this work for a long time and I have never worked with people that have fled such trauma. They were incredibly disorientated, confused, worried, worried about the people that they'd left behind, worried about what was going to happen to them in the UK. It was devastating. The last flight was devastating. And we were there 24 hours a day last week and we would have been there forever

if it meant more people came coming through my team were desperately looking for more people to come off more planes um that's our abiding concern is the people that they left behind and that's what people really wanted to talk about um for many stepping into that arrivals hall was the first time in that they had felt safe and so for some they wanted to talk about their experiences they wanted to talk about the people that they'd left behind and the choices that they had to make choices to take their immediate family and flee and leave other family members in that situation I don't think that's something that we'll ever understand if we're born in the UK

but my team were supporting people through that immediate distress last week. And in terms of when they get off the plane, these people that you were meeting, of course, planes coming into other airports here in the UK, what actually happens there and then? What is that process? Logistically, the Home Office were there to process people um understand uh who was there collect passports generate immediate visas they would then go and have biometrics taken uh by border force and then moved on to quarantine accommodation through through their coaches um but that takes a long time. And there was a lot of flights landing.

So there was a real backlog in the airport and people were waiting quite considerable time in the airport. So my team was there to provide immediate assistance with partners, making sure people had food, water, that they were comfortable, but critically making sure that people had urgent medical attention. I met one woman who had, I noticed she was sleeping in the chair or trying to sleep. And I looked closely at her and she had a newborn baby tucked under her arm. And I talked to her and it turned out she'd given birth in Kabul airport. Her baby was four days old.

I can't imagine what that woman has been through. So making sure she immediately got the attention of the GP that was on site who checked her and tried to make her comfortable so that she could get some sleep. That's what we saw, people having to immediately evacuate their life, take whatever they could. I was going to say, presumably not have very much with them. Absolutely. The final flight, particularly, different flights, you could notice different sort of themes with that flight, different experiences that they might have been through. The final flight, particularly, I noticed that people were coming through with meagre possessions wrapped in scarves, in tattered carrier bags.

So we quite quickly tried to gather all of the bags we had, and they were simply bags for life, you know, supermarket bags for life to give people so that they would have something to put their valued possessions in. And just walking around that airport terminal with a bag full of bags for life and people just being so happy that they had something to put their possessions in, it was truly devastating to see humans in that position. You've been doing, as you say, this work for some time. What was particularly different about this, do you think?

It's the fact that people knew that they were safe, but that their loved ones weren't. I have never seen such an extreme of emotion, the relief and happiness that they felt for themselves and their family and the devastation that they felt for the people that they felt for themselves and their family, and the devastation that they felt for the people that they loved, because they knew that the borders were closing. They know that the airlift was finishing. And the reality is that the people left in Afghanistan, there are no easy solutions for them,

and there are no quick ways out. The most we can hope is that those borders reopen or relax so that people can make the land borders and then they're going to join a very, very long queue for resettlement. Pakistan already has a significant refugee community. Because of what you're saying there, it's quite a unique set of circumstances where there was a deadline of how you could move and when you could move and if you could get onto those flights. We're getting quite a lot of messages here, as we have done for the last three weeks, about what people can do. What is it now,

from your point of view, I mentioned there the thousands in hotels at the moment, obviously a very unique situation again because of the pandemic, people being offered vaccinations also upon arrival here in the UK. What do you say to people when they say, how can I help? I think firstly, I always say in your community, in your lives, in your homes, firstly and foremostly, be kind. We work with a lot of refugees in refugee action that have resettled into the UK. And the thing that they need the most is friendship.

We need to build integrated, welcoming, cohesive communities. And that's something that everyone can do in their lives. It doesn't cost money and it doesn't take a lot of time. Be kind, be kind to your new neighbours, help people. The second thing people can do is understand what people have left behind in Afghanistan and frankly demand better. Our new borders bill that's being promoted will slam the door in the people's faces that have left in Afghanistan. We can do better as a country and we need to embrace the fact

that ongoing conflict is an inevitability globally. You mentioned that we have people backed up in hotels. We do. And I understand the reasons for that and it's the sheer speed of the response, which of course we all applaud. But the bottom line is this government stopped refugee resettlement two years ago

and has failed to make a pledge for refugee resettlement. The reason we've got this massive housing pinch point is because we've dismantled the structures and infrastructure around refugee resettlement. We had a pipeline of 5,000 a year that was switched off. If that wasn't switched off, there would have been 5,000 spaces, housing, accommodation for 5,000 in that pipeline. What we're doing at the moment is cycling very quickly to rebuild that infrastructure. We need a permanent infrastructure around resettlement and we need an asylum system that acknowledges our role

in that global conflict. And I would say to everyone listening, please embrace that. All of the politicians, all of the influencers, use whatever platform you have to challenge the borders bill and look for a position that acknowledges our role in creating welcome to people. We did invite Victoria Atkins on the Minister for Overseeing Afghan Resettettlement but we did have the home secretary on priti patel about 10 days or so who talked about the fact that you've got to be able to cater for what for the for what you can give and therefore give a decent life to people the money

has been announced today i'll be speaking to a councillor in just a moment we're having many messages come in about people who've been collecting and donations uh julie for instance also says i host destitute single asylum seekers in South London through a number of charities. Another one here saying the Bucks Federation of the Women's Institutes mobilised on Saturday. We've happily accumulated and delivered hundreds of pounds worth of clothing, toys and deliveries, which is continuing today. A warm welcome. That's from Thelma, who's messaged in. But we've got another message here saying, and I just wanted to get your view on this, Louise, we are a very caring nation, but we're

very overpopulated. Where do all of these refugees live? You must also hear that in your line of work. And I wanted to give you the opportunity to respond. Thank you. Yes. As I said, for the last five years since the Syrian crisis, we've been resettling 5,000 refugees a year. That has not been a massive challenge for us in order to procure that housing, to find those schools, places to find that GP places. We can do that and we can do more. There is no reason that we can't. Refugee resettlement is very small numbers in the UK when you look at our population size and density. When you look at the global figures, there's around a 20 to 30 year backlog for refugee resettlement in the world. The Afghan situation will add considerably to that waiting time.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say we're not going to take our fair share of refugees through resettlement and we're not going to allow people into the country to claim asylum. Those two things are mutually exclusive and one generates the other. The current government policy wants to deny both routes. The reality is... Well, that's not what the government would say. They would say at the moment they're bending over backwards to extend a warm welcome. As a response to the current situation in Afghanistan.

Well, that's what I mean, I understand there's a bigger picture here. Sorry, but that is the particular scenario we're talking about right now. And even to if you just talk about that scenario, which this message has come in off the back of, people are concerned. And it's an important one to raise, even if it doesn't feel kind or welcoming to raise it. But people will be thinking that, especially after the pandemic, won't they, about costs and budgets and finance? I understand that. As I said before, we were delivering 5,000 without this situation in Afghanistan routinely, year on year. And I think that most people would say that that was not creating a problem or additional burden to the infrastructure

at a local level. In fact, many people didn't even know we were doing that. Also again, and maybe a bigger conversation, but there were council leaders, there were local politicians such as Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester,

saying, you know, we can do it, but we have to spread it equally. We have to spread it evenly. This is about which councils sign up. We know only one in three about at the moment have put themselves forward to take Afghan refugees. Let's come to that, if I can, with my councillor in just a moment. I did also say that you may give us some advice, which sounds counterintuitive on what not to do, Louise. What's not helpful at the moment, do you think? I think, as I said earlier, the most important thing is to remember that the people that are joining our communities and neighbours are joining from a horrific position. And they're coming because they want safety in the first instance they want to rebuild their lives and contribute in the UK every single refugee that I've worked with and that I've met last week and more broadly want to work they want to contribute they want to pay their taxes they want to rebuild their family's future in this country.

So I think we need to be mindful of that and not have a narrative that actually underpins refugees taking from this country, but refugees rebuilding this country with us, contributing positively. So that's a thing not to do in terms of how it's framed and the narrative and to remember you've had some of those conversations with those people and that's apart from of course all the trauma and the thoughts that you shared with us at the beginning about who's left behind that's what they want to be able to do to contribute. Is there anything on a much more practical level would you say that people just need to check out in their area those who are collecting about what they actually need and what they don't need so you don't end up with things that are in large supply versus short supply you must have seen that yeah absolutely on on the donations more broadly you at the start of the program announced the funding that the home

office are releasing uh for the refugees that are resettling at the moment, which is very welcome. The people in this country, there are Afghan people in this country at the moment, people of different nationalities that have very little that are going through the asylum system. Asylum support is just over £5 a day. So I would say to people that are collecting donations, please consider working with your local asylum support charity your local destitution provision uh to

release those provisions uh to them where they will be an absolute lifesaver um resettlement is just one route for people that need sanctuary in the uk. Asylum is the other. And it's the people in the asylum system that we're hugely concerned about in terms of their position in the UK. Louise Calvey, thank you for your time. Head of Services and Safeguarding for the charity Refugee Action, who was at Birmingham Airport until that last flight landed on Sunday. Let's talk then to Paymana Asad, who's a Labour councillor in Harrow, responsible for the Afghan resettlement programme in the borough. She was recently evacuated from Afghanistan

herself on an RAF flight because she has family there, and after a period of quarantine, returned to her job yesterday, helping to start to sort out housing for the arrivals. Good morning. Morning. I just wanted to ask, because you came to this country, were you three when you first came here?

Yeah, I was three years old. Very young. So you probably can't quite remember the welcome per se. But was it a warm welcome for your family who were, again, escaping a very difficult time? Yes, I think my parents had a completely different experience to most refugees that come to the country now or have done the last few years. My mum arrived with just the clothes on her at London Heathrow and she spent the night outside the airport waiting for immigration officials to understand what to do with her. She was pregnant, she had three kids by her side under the age of five. But yeah, my parents were very happy with the treatment that they got when they first arrived.

And that's actually one of the reasons why they loved John Major because he was prime minister then. And you're a Labour councillor. So I imagine that's an interesting conversation around the dinner table. Yes, it is. It's a very interesting conversation.

For a long time, my parents were Conservative voters. So they were kind of surprised when I joined the Labour Party. Well, that's a whole other discussion that perhaps we'll have another time. But you're now trying to grapple with welcoming a whole new generation of people. And the money has been announced this morning. Still details, I'm sure, to be worked out. But what's the housing stock looking like in your area? Or some of the questions, I understand you had a meeting last night about this. Yeah so I had a meeting with my team yesterday at

the council in regards to what kind of housing we can use so we're very reluctant to use social housing to house these refugees because we've got thousands of people on our social housing register and so it's going to be very very difficult for us to to take that away from from our own constituents so what we're looking at is using a different fund and a different way of finding private landlords and housing associations who'd be willing to give us housing under the local housing allowance rate, which is the housing benefit rate. The thing that we're going to find difficult is that most of these families that are coming over have family units of more than five or six people. And so the bedrooms that we're going to have to look for are four to five bedrooms. And that's going to be very, very difficult, especially in London. So I agree with Andy Burnham when he says that we need to spread out this responsibility across different councils across the UK.

And people need to think about not just staying in London, but maybe moving outside to different areas across the UK. Do you think the government, I recognise I'm asking this as a Labour councillor, but it's sort of at some points, it's very rare that politics goes to one side, party politics, when you're actually trying to house and resettle people and individuals and help them rebuild their lives. Do you think it should be compulsory for councils to sign up to this? It's really difficult for me to say that because I started having this conversation with my team at the council before I went to Afghanistan. Back in May, I started having this conversation about taking Afghan refugees. We knew that the scheme was coming. We knew that refugees would be coming here. We just didn't realise that, the pace and the rate.

And so I can't really speak and say that it should be compulsory because every council is in a completely different situation with their funding and their budgets and especially their housing stock it's going to be very different case by case but for different councils so I think it's a decision for council leaders to make and for cabinet members in the boroughs. What are you telling your constituents if they want to help at the moment to do based on obviously what you can see in your position at the at the council and also your experience of coming here so to be that warm welcome just to target that a bit more yeah so we've got two donation centres up in harrow so so you know continuing to to donate and making sure that refugees have the

things that they need um but the second and most important thing is landlords. I put out a call on Twitter saying any landlords who are willing and able to give up their properties for us under the local housing allowance rate, under the housing benefit rate, and are willing to house refugees, please come forward, because that's basically what we need help with. So we need landlords to step up at this moment in time and work with local councils to do that. But constituents, you know, refugee action has outlined all of the steps. But I think the biggest thing right now is to make sure and understand that a lot of these refugees that are coming over here, they're not poor and destitute individuals. Some of these are professionals. You know, we've got women's

rights activists. We've got people who've worked in the Afghan government. We've got national defence security forces individuals. You know, yesterday, I was talking to an Afghan diplomat who used to serve here in London for Afghanistan. And he was looking for, he was worried about housing. And to be in that situation as a professional, as someone who had a salary, a job, a life in a different country, and to come here, I think that's the biggest understanding that I'd like for constituents, wherever they are, to understand that these people want to stand on their own two feet and live an independent life

and contribute to British society and maybe one day return to Afghanistan. Payman Asad, a Labour councillor in Harrow. Thank you. Commenting further on Operation Warm Welcome, the Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said, we owe an immense debt to those who work with the armed forces in Afghanistan and I am determined that we give them and their families the support they need to rebuild their lives here in the UK. I know this will be an incredibly daunting time,

but I hope that we'll take heart from the wave of support and generosity already expressed by the British public. Well, last night and talking about landing and coming in, albeit in very different circumstances, but somebody, again, changing country against their will. But as I say, very different circumstances. We're told a threat to Russian national security came back to UK shores. She is Sarah Rainsford, BBC Moscow correspondent and someone who's been living in and reporting on Russia for over two decades. On the 10th of August, just over a month ago, she was told that she was being barred indefinitely. and someone who's been living in and reporting on Russia for over two decades.

On the 10th of August, just over a month ago, she was told that she was being barred indefinitely for the protection of the security of Russia and allowed into the country for the sole purpose of packing up her life and leaving. But why her, and what chance, if any, does she have now of returning? Sarah Rainsford joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Is this your, this is your first morning back?

Yes, it is, yeah. A strange morning. I was going to say, what's that feeling like? Well, the word back is weird as well because I haven't lived in Russia, sorry, in the UK for 20 years, basically. I left, my first foreign assignment was to Moscow in August 2000.

And since then, I've worked in Russia and in other countries, but always going back to Russia for two decades. So coming to the UK, even though the foreign ministry were telling me they were sending me home, it doesn't really feel like coming home. Although, of course, obviously, it's familiar. It's not my home. And, you know, Russia was my home for a very long time. So it feels like I'm kind of more in exile than back home, really.

Yes. And I'm sure, well, I've read that you would like to go back. Yes, but I've been told very clearly by none other than the FSB security service that they don't want to see me back. I was handed a piece of paper eventually at the border in Moscow in Sheremetyevo Airport on August the 10th and told to sign it. And it said that I was a threat to national security. So, you know, it was obviously a shocking, shocking moment. And, you know, I'd kind of been expecting something. I'd been given signals before then that my situation in Moscow was a little bit precarious. I'd been put on short term visas.

I'd always had annual visas. My accreditation and my visa was always renewed up until about a year ago. And they started putting me on three-month visas and then a two-month visa. And I was getting signals that, you know, that things were not necessarily as they should be. But I didn't ever expect what happened to me

when I tried to re-enter Moscow from Belarus earlier this, well, last month now. And I certainly never expect to be labelled as a journalist as a threat to national security. And the Russian government keeps dismissing that part of it. They keep ignoring that part of it. They keep saying, it's just my visa not being renewed when it came to an end at the end of August.

But it's not that. It's something much deeper and much more sinister, frankly, and quite scary. Do you have any understanding what you did to put you in that position? The official reason is that this is purely tit for tat. The Russian government, I got called into the foreign ministry when I was eventually allowed back into the country. That took 12 hours, first and foremost, it took 12 hours of negotiations to stop them deporting me. So I sort of hung on in the airport in Moscow, I didn't get on a plane, as there were there were a lot of frantic phone calls being made to say, you know, this is wrong, condemning it and saying, you know, you shouldn't

be kicking Sarah out. So after after all those those calls on my behalf, eventually, I was allowed into Moscow. But I was called into the foreign ministry the next day. And I was told that that was it, my whole chapter of my life with Russia was over, that they wouldn't be renewing my visa. And I was being kicked out. And they kept saying this was tit for tat, that a Russian journalist had been denied leave to remain in the UK. And, you know, I was simply an equivalent for that. The problem is that that journalist case that they cited, that was two years ago, and there was never any fuss at the time, never any jumping and screaming and shouting about it. And it's been quite clear that ever since my case became public, the Russian authorities have been very reluctant to name this Russian journalist.

So if it's tit for tat, you know, who who is this all about and why, you know, have we never heard about it until now? So it feels it feels much more personal than that. It feels much more worrying, I think, than that. This isn't a bureaucratic move. It's something, I think, much deeper. We should probably point out you're not the only BBC correspondent in Russia. There's also your colleague, Steve Rosenberg, who is still there, I understand. Do you think being a woman has had any bearing on it?

I always say I'm not a woman, I'm a journalist. You know, you often get referred to in interviews and things kind of, I don't know, your gender becomes an issue and you sort of say, you know, in this particular instance, I'm not a woman. I've got a microphone. I'm a correspondent. But maybe, I mean, there's certainly a practical element to it. Not necessarily, you know, just talking specifically about Steve, of course, but, you know, actually, this is a political move as well. You know, this is happening in the context of a really serious deterioration in relations between Russia and the UK.

And, you know, when looking for a UK journalist to target, well, first and foremost, obviously, the BBC is the most prominent British news organisation operating in Russia. But also, you know, it's a fact of life that most British journalists are operating in Russia. Excellent journalists, really probing, challenging, brilliant journalists. You know, a huge amount about Russia. They also happen, all of them pretty much, to be male and almost all of them to be married to Russians. So perhaps, you know, there is a practical element, which is that, you know, kicking me out is easier. I'm married to an Englishman. You know, I don't have that family tie to Russia. So maybe it's sort of be easier. But certainly, you know, when I faced the foreign ministry earlier last month,

I don't think they quite realised the depth of my own entanglement with Russia, the fact that I had such a deep personal relationship to the country going back many, many years. So, you know, I did take the opportunity to explain to them that the one thing I kept trying to say is, I'm not your enemy. You know, you've labelled me hostile, you've labelled me anti-Russian. I'm not. This is a country I care deeply about, and that I've spent a huge amount of time and effort trying to understand and to learn and to understand and to try to explain Russia to the world and I just kept saying you know kicking me out is a mistake because you're losing your link to the outside world and I'd like to think that I try to be objective about Russia and try to tell that story but obviously I think you know given what's happened to me obviously I think I must have touched a nerve somewhere with somebody

because many Russians who've responded to what's happened to me have told me that they believe this is because of what I do and what all journalists do in Russia, which is trying to tell the truth. I asked you that at the same time as Barbara emailed asking why you and not Steve Rosenberg, I wonder. That literally just came in from a listener who wanted to know if there was anything there because of you being a woman and the macho images of, you know, Putin and the macho sort of status of the way it does politics. Russia is a very macho country, but it's also a country of extremely powerful, fierce, brave women, Russian women I'm talking about. So, you know, I mean, yes, most powerful leaders in Russia are men. Of course, you know, Putin is quite clearly a very macho man. And they have perhaps a slightly condescending attitude towards women. But at the same time, as I say, it is a country of extremely, extremely brave,

courageous women. And, you know, not just journalists, but also human rights campaigners, political activists, a lot of them in extremely dire straits now, many of them being forced to leave the country, but many of them still there and still, you know, still standing up for what they believe in. And I think one of the most touching things for me, actually, actually in the last few days as I've been kind of packing up my life and cutting my ties hopefully only temporarily with Russia has been that a lot of the people that I've reported on and who I've become quite close to over over the years have been have been empathizing with me and saying how sorry they feel about what's happened with me but then I look at them and I say look this is your country and you're still here, still trying to, as I say,

stand up for what you believe in. And, you know, they're the brave ones. They're the really important people in all of this. Well, that's, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, as you say, you're a journalist, you're there to tell the stories. That's what you've been focusing on, regardless of what's been put towards you or you've been labelled as by others.

What are you going to do now, Sarah? I think it's only just starting to hit what's happened. You know, what's happened is only just starting to hit now. So I think there's a lot of, I think I need a bit of time to figure out what's happened and what it means. But I mean, I am still the Moscow correspondent. I am, at least formally, you know, still very closely tied to Russia um but yeah I don't know it's a big big question going forward because Russia as I said you know it was very much part of my life but it was also my meaning I mean it was my it was my whole being I I kind of feel like I poured a lot into Russia over the years so kind of uh losing that is quite a leaves a big hole in my life of course and it. And it must be incredibly upsetting.

Yeah, it is. And yeah, even now. I mean, yeah, I cried a lot of tears at the beginning, I have to admit. Mainly, I think, at the shock of it and just the fact it was happening. But yeah, now it's anger as well and frustration. Because I think this is about sending a signal to all journalists in Russia, not just the foreign media, that, you know, you're not protected, that free speech is under threat in Russia, and that all of us who thought we were, and do think we're doing the right thing by challenging people with our microphones, that, you know, we are being watched, and that, you know, all the Russian journalists who, the brave,

independent, free Russian journalists who are still working in Russia, their lives are becoming more and more difficult by the day. And, you know, I think it is a very worrying signal. I know a lot of foreign journalists are also very worried in Russia now that perhaps some kind of red line has been crossed. Well, I'm very happy in one way, if that makes sense, that we could hear your voice speak freely this morning. And it's very important to do so. Our BBC Moscow correspondent, Sarah Rainsford, in exile, as she puts it, not able to be in Russia, the country she's called home for the last 20 years. I'm sure we'll speak again when perhaps she's talked a bit more about what she's going to do next.

A message come in from Ellie saying, wear it as a badge of honour, Ms Rainsford, with the hashtag Women's Hour. Well, 40 years ago this week, 36 people from a campaign group called Women for Life on Earth marched from Cardiff to the Greenham Common RAF base in Newbury in Berkshire to protest against the British government allowing US nuclear missiles on British soil. Realising that marching was not enough,

many stayed at Greenham to continue their protest and were joined by thousands of women all over the world to form the Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp. They stayed there for almost 20 years in what would become one of the longest and most famous examples of feminist protest in recent history. Well, last week, another group set out from Cardiff to commemorate and follow the route of the original protesters. Rebecca Morden is one of them. She was taken to Greenham by her mother, aged five, and is the co-author of the book Out of the Darkness, Greenham Voices, 81 to 2000, a book that shares the recollections of many of the women

who lived at the Greenham Common Peace Camp, including Sue Say, and they join me live now from their walk to remember. Hello, Rebecca, let me come to you first. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Where are you up to on the walk? Well, we are optimistically telling each other, reminding each other we are over halfway through.

There's been some long days. We're just sitting on the green in Devizes right now. We've pulled away from the march to join you. Everyone's very excited about it. And we'll catch up with them on the little blue dot as they walk all the way today to marlborough um you can follow us on the on our green and women everywhere website and that's how we're going to find them by finding their their their progress i feel bad we've pulled you away but you'll catch up i'm sure i'm hoping they're going to cover lots of miles while we talk so i don't have to do those ones no no no no come on come on you're You're hoping to get there by Friday, I believe.

Yeah, we're on course to get there for Friday. It seems remarkable. But yes, it does seem like we will be there on Friday afternoon. And how many of you on this walk? It fluctuates every day. So there's a core team of about 20 people who are doing the whole thing um and from all different backgrounds ages it's a really lovely mix and some original um green and women with us as well which as you know so you say you'll touch in a minute um but there's also women people come every day so sometimes we just have maybe a few people who come and walk sections with us and then some days we have another 50 people who all turn up and walk the whole the whole of a day or say I'm going to do the next

three days with you or two days and we've got a lot of people who obviously want to walk a lot of Greenham women as well who want to walk Hungerford to Greenham and do the whole last day so that's going to be a bit of a party I think. But the climate of fear to go back to 1981 to actually remind people who maybe don't know anything at all about this or have forgotten. And I know that's important to you to try and paint that image. There was such fear for some, wasn't there, about nuclear when this began? Absolutely. I think I think it was an incredibly visceral fear that is not dissimilar, actually, which is one of the reasons why I think this is such a prescient protest to remember and honour and rekindle, if you like. It's not dissimilar to the fear that the youth very rightly have now of climate change that we should all have. It's not dissimilar to the fears that many of us share about male violence locally, nationally, globally. These are the kind of, and we've just committed as a government in Britain

to spend 40% more on our nuclear weapons instead of our NHS coming out of COVID or our communities. So there's an awful lot of the green and women we're addressing in that height of the Cold War that actually is really, really, really important for us to kind of be inspired by today. Women inspire women. So that's kind of why we're all here.

Let's bring in Sue Say. Good morning. morning good morning you're one of the original women from greenham you you were 18 i believe when you went what motivated you i was i was 18 when i went um i was not one of the original walkers um i joined mostly i think, because both my parents belonged to CND and I'd been a sort of active part of that. My dad was a conscientious objector and actually my mum was a wren in the war and beyond. And so I had quite a balanced sort of view of, you know, to have an army to protect people, to support the UN and to go in for crisis situations. Yes, I was fully with that. But the idea of pushing a button miles away and murdering generations of people just was completely unacceptable to me. And that was my motivation. However, when I got there, I realised that I was a lot more naive than I thought I was. I thought I was a very sussed 18 year old who knew it all. I knew it all. And I got there and I suddenly realized with, you know, arriving at Yellow Gains and talking to the women there, I realized I knew absolutely

nothing. So it was, it was really, it was an education. It was the start of my education as to the place that women have in the world and learning that actually I could say no. And we're not going to do this and we're not going to have violence and we are going to look after each other and we're going to look after our planet. And I think that was the start of my education. Hold that thought for a moment, Sue. We're going to hear a clip of some of the women explaining their reasons for staying at Greenham. This is in April 1983. I was lucky enough to hear about the camp almost when it first started

and I just came down really to see what was going on and became emotionally involved. The Women's Peace Camp to me was there to look death in the eyes and find some hope and strength to be able to fight what seems to be the ultimate threat to our destiny. Well there is times when I say oh it's a miserable day but there's no real times when I say I don't want to stay here anymore you know like because although it's miserable as you can see we're sitting around here and we're talking and we're laughing and it's like you just create

your own energy. I mean sometimes it's hard to get up and begin the daily toil against crews but it's great, I really enjoy being here. Part of the reason for being here is to show that people can do things for themselves, ordinary people. We've started to call ourselves common women now, not green and women which puts over the idea of being very ordinary and ordinary people can do something about it.

And we are making the government think again. We'll come to that in a moment. But life there, apart from the education, and I know you've got a lot of that sitting around the fire talking to women from all sorts of backgrounds, but it was pretty hard as well. You know, no running water, freezing cold winters. You did have to sort of stick it out, Sue. Absolutely. However, as you will probably discover when you have a group of women you become very creative um we we made our own showers we designed our own showers we supported each other we helped each other to kind of find different ways of

approaching things working together it's incredible how how actually you can make things work very well. We had sort of groups of women who sort of focused on what they were best at. Some women were really good at organising the processes of camp and so they set up sort of food tents and showers and sort of facilities. Other women just liked digging holes, so they went and dug shit pits for us. And other women went and cut the fence and other women just like digging holes so they went and dug um shit pits for us and other other women

went and and cut the fence and other women went everybody found what suited them and they did that and together we formed a whole protest as as a whole load of individual women doing it their own way well just apologies there if anyone didn't like the description of the lose um in terms of that word. No, no, no, no. It's fine. It's what it was in many ways. But I just wanted to get back to Rebecca as well, though, because I said you were five when you went. What are your early memories of going to the camp with your mum? Oh, I have. So my mum would take food and supplies and do things like night watch, where local women would sit and guard the tents.

The women living there could have a really good sleep and stuff like that. Cruise watch so that the army couldn't get away with moving the missiles around. She was part of the telephone trees, which, of course, are the dinosaur version of social media and things. So she was very active. And so I went to go there under several different circumstances. I would go there either on a quiet day to take food or supplies and hang out. And then it was brilliant because I could just ask. This was a group of grownups that to me, I was like, I could ask them anything. So you could just go around and talk.

I'm sure I was a real pain. But actually, I never got that impression. They seemed like those lovely women who could ask any question in the world to you. And they would just sit and talk to you about it. And, you know, it was really, I just loved the education of it and the openness and then of course I can remember the really really really busy times like I was there for Embrace the Bass and I can remember you know the sound of 30,000 women singing the same songs and holding all holding to his hands and looking up in the moment that they knew that they'd encircled the base. And this powerful feeling going round and a cheer.

And me just looking up at my mum and the woman on the other side of me and them smiling down at me and just thinking, oh, my God, this is all women and I'm going to be a woman one day. This is so cool. Well, you mentioned singing there. Let's hear an excerpt from some of the singing. You can't forbid me everything. you can't forbid me to think, you can't forbid my tears to flow as you gush out my mouth when I sing. I can see you Sue on our video call, you're smiling quite broadly there at that. The singing was all part of it it was what kept us all going

women made up songs we we picked a tune and everybody would just have a go and we just add lines and add things it helps to lift your spirits when you are working together on anything and i think that that was something that filled us with you you know, enthusiasm because it does get a bit flat. When I first went there, we had actual structures. We had benders that we lived in. I lived in an ambulance. That was cosy times. But then they made it illegal to have structures on the common,

illegal to have fires on the common, and it just got harder and harder as we tried to sort of adapt to how to live without those luxury items as they turned out to be. I mean, I was going to say, because, you know, in one sense, you're talking with smiles and warm memories and wanting to help, I know Rebecca feels strongly about this as well, help people remember this huge women's movement from around the world. But the reception to you was mixed, to say the least, to put it politely.

I mean, let's just get to that. I mean, I've even got a message here that's just come in, soap dodging hippies with zero understanding of global politics. Rebecca, what would you make of that? Because that's one of the ones I can probably read aloud. Yeah, there's a lot of strong feeling and there always is around social justice and change. Obviously, messages like that are quite naive. I've just been part of making another program for Radio 4 actually, an archive hour called the Greenham Effect in which, you know, Michael Heseltine and Olga Maitland echo similar statements to that. Thatcher called the Greenham women eccentric as well, didn't she?

And the tabloids certainly put it in other ways. Yeah. And it's really interesting because obviously I think it is. I think it's naive to say that a group of women costing, you know, living somewhere, drawing thousands of women around the country, getting discussions about feminism and nuclear proliferation across the dinner tables of every house in the country, costing hundreds of thousands of pounds of every house in the country costing hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage to both the american and the english governments um you know across nearly nearly 20 years it would be it would be naive to say that was not a massive thorn in the side of the establishment and that it didn't change the relationship between men and women and

it didn't create a dialogue uh nationally and internationally around um what what we should do with our nuclear weapons and how we should handle ourselves and our militaries. Clearly, you can't say that just one group has responsibility for changing those things, but you can, you would be, it would be foolish to say that a massive campaign such as the like, the largest female-led campaigns such as suffrage didn't have a huge impact on that. And there's also, you know, that you mentioned the tabloids. I think it's really interesting that, you know, the tabloids particularly were incredibly virulent about lesbianism at the camp and things like that particularly particularly focused on that

but of course up to that point there wasn't even a public um discussion around the fact that there were lesbians even now that's a genie that couldn't go back in the bottle one of the ripple effects of greenham is that you know we are much more open about the fact that women have same sex relationships as well. It might not have been reported favorably at the time, but suddenly it was something that one of the Greenham women said to me, I saw lesbian on the telly on a tent and I saw in the papers. I thought, oh, my God, I'm not the only one. I'm going to go there. there's some of my people so it brought women together for a lot of different ways and taught them that their primary relationship didn't have to come from men, which is, you know, you can never go back from that, it's radical. I was reading

Sue, just a final thought from you if I can I was reading from one of the women who was at Greenham, say actually there's a debate about how effective it was in terms of its initial mission around nuclear and people do debate that and that's a whole other discussion perhaps for a different time but it's exactly what Rebecca

was just starting to say that that there were bigger things to come from it around what women perhaps learned and some of the discussions around feminism do you think that's what if you know nothing about it do you think coming new to it that's what you could take from it Sue? I think you would have to because you'd look at the whole society the way the role that women had back then my mum you know vowed to to obey my father that was the way it was then and then suddenly you've got us looking at prison the way that the prison service worked because we as green and women were were committing crimes and being convicted we were going into prison and we were seeing the way that women were committing crimes and being convicted. We were going into prison and we were seeing the way that women were mistreated in prison.

And the fact that women were in prison for minor thefts of small amounts of money. This was not, you know, incarcerating dangerous people away from society, which is something I believed it was. So I think we had to look at the role that women played in society as a whole. And I think for me that was the awakening. Lots of people are getting in touch with what it did for them as well and those different feelings

that it elicited. Some of them very positive, some of them not so. But that is exactly what you will remember, I'm sure, as you will be marching and walking. Good luck for getting there on Friday. Thank you for taking time out of that walk, Rebecca Morden and Sue Say. Now, just to tell you about something that I mentioned right at the beginning of the programme, because we always want to mark it when there's a first for women.

Female football referees, still a rare sight. Even rarer sights when it comes to officiating the men's game. Earlier this year, Rebecca Welch became the first female referee to be added to the English Football League's national group list for men's football and became the first woman to officiate an EFL match in April when she took charge of Harrogate's 2-0 League 2 defeat to Port Vale. But apparently, Rebecca, this was never your grand plan.

First of all, congratulations and good morning. This wasn't the plan? Definitely not, no. Which people are shocked to hear about. plan first of all congratulations and good morning this wasn't the plan definitely not no which people are shocked to hear about but yeah it was um never did i wake up one morning and want to be a referee and i'm not really sure anybody does but yeah i decided to do it one day when i was 27 and then the rest is history is the same but you were until recently working as an nhs administrator yeah that's correct so until two years ago I was working for the NHS really good flexibility wise so you know football is quite demanding as a referee

so especially doing domestic and international and they were really great but it got to the point where something had to give in order for me to progress and you know ultimately when I end up retiring I want to look back and think I put everything into football and this is where I got. So yeah, work at it, give. You often hear that with women and sport, that they do something on the side of it because they've got to make it pay as well.

They're doing it and they're still trying to make the name for women in often men's worlds, which we'll get to in just a moment. Is it right you only picked up a whistle after joking to a friend that it looked easy? Yeah, that's correct. One of my biggest friends was a ref. Yeah, so that was a conversation

which really changed my life. She said, well, go and have a go if it's that easy. And yeah, I went and done the course. And is it that easy? Definitely not. No, yeah, I take back that statement all every year as I go. What is it like when you're on there, you're on the pitch with men?

To be fair, it's great that the lads who are referees from starting at 27 in grassroots right the way up now into the EFL, the lads are absolutely fantastic. I think there's a myth behind it that because I'm a female in a male-dominated sport that it's really difficult for me. And, you know, I've never found that in the last 11 years of officiating. You know, I've always found that the lads have, OK, so they disagree with me because I'm a referee

and they don't agree with my decisions, but that's where it stops. Is there a difference between how male players disagree or agree or try and, you know, have a word with you than female players yeah kind of and i think it's just because you know being a female myself i know what i'm like when decisions are being made whether that's at work or in normal life and i want to know the the what's the ways the why's why do you come to that decision i want to dissect it so and it's the same with footballers you know that the women really want to know the the logic behind that decision um I want to dissect it. And it's the same with footballers, you know, the women really want to know the logic behind that decision, whereas the men will ask you, give them an answer,

and then they'll carry on with the game. So I'm not sure that's to do with men footballers, women footballers. I think that's just to do with men and women just in general. That's fascinating, though, what the women sort of stand there and say, well, why? Why? Do they want a whole debrief?

They don't stand there and say it well, why? Why? Do they want a whole debrief? They don't stand there and say it, but yeah, they kind of want to know the law and the rationale behind it. That's one of our jobs, is to make decisions, but then obviously explain to the players why you've made that decision.

Do you find that the fans, I mean, how many times have you done this now with the men's game? Twice with fans. Twice with fans, yeah mean, how many times have you done this now with the men's game? Once, twice with fans in. Twice with fans, yeah, because it's been a funny old time. How has it been with fans? Because obviously the ref's not that popular a lot of the time anyway. Yeah, I prefer it with the fans. You get that noise, you get that atmosphere and we're the same as players. We buzz off that adrenaline when you walk out to the noise.

So, yeah, I definitely prefer it because last season you were playing football matches in silence and that's not how football matches should be played. Do you feel that this is the beginning then for us seeing women officiate at men's matches as the norm? How close are we to that becoming more of the norm? I mean, are there many women coming up behind you? Yeah, we've got a load of really good younger girls

coming up in the men's game who officiate week in, week out now. So to me, I would say it is the norm because I'm involved in this industry and I see it every week. But I think, you know, yeah, obviously there was a big talking point at me doing the Harrogate game back in April,

but, you know, in two, three years' time, me doing the Harrogate game back in April but you know in two three years time it will just be the norm and nobody will even mention it well we'll see we'll see if we get that I know

Sian Massey-Ellis the first woman to become a professional match official was it was a big inspiration for you yeah definitely you know I knew I

didn't know Sian before I got into reffing but obviously everybody knew who she was and over the years Sian's become part of my team who I work with on the women's game. So great to be involved with all the girls, really. A lot of the girls who operate at the top level have children.

And I take my hat off to them because there's me and I've just got to look after myself and go to games. Whereas a lot of the girls, like Sian, Natalie, Helen, Lisa, have got children and they have to organise the kids' lives around football and really make that work. And to them, that's unbelievable. Well, more to come, as you say, coming up behind. And are you very strict in real life as well? No, I'm quite laid back in real life.

I was going to say, that first person that you made that bet with, after that joke with, they must be looking at you now in an interesting way. Yeah, to be honest, I always mention it because had it not been for her then, I wouldn't be sat here now. So I'm forever grateful for that friendship that still continues. I'll just add that one in there as well. Lovely to talk to you, Rebecca. Thanks for joining us.

And congratulations again, Rebecca Welsh. Many messages about Greenham coming in. Jules says the Greenham Women's Camp changed a lot of attitudes about a lot of things and paved the way for all sorts of stuff that has helped empower us. And another one here. I was on so many of the Greenham marches in the 80s. Amazing memories of the women who were able to live there all those years. And a couple of messages about hippies too, in not so complimentary ways. But that is it,

the variety of views on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr. Michael Mosley. And in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple, and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. Mmm, that was really good. To improve your heart. To playing video games.

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