Woman's Hour - Gregg Wallace, Uterine fibroids, Director Kiran Rao

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

The TV presenter Gregg Wallace has denied behaviour of a sexually harassing nature, after 13 people came forward last week with allegations of inappropriate comments. In a video posted on Instagram, he said the accusations had been made by 'a handful of middle-class women of a certain age'. Nuala McGovern is joined by former head of Channel 4 News Dorothy Byrne and the Chair of the Fawcett Society, Baroness Harriet Harman, to discuss.When Daniel Wing was a year old, his mother Tina was murdered. 32 years on, the murder still remains unsolved – but a spotlight is thrown on the case in a new documentary: Who Murdered You, Mum? Nuala is joined by Daniel and barrister Harriet Johnson to talk about what the programme shows in terms of change in fighting violence against women and girls, and what needs to happen next to keep women safe.Professor Nicola Rollock is best known for her academic research and writing on race and society. As a friend of the programme, she approached us to ask to talk about something more personal - her experience of uterine fibroids, something that affects around 70% of women, but this rises to 80% for black women. Nicola joins Nuala alongside Hilary Critchley, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at the University of Edinburgh, to discuss more.Hindi-language film, Laapataa Ladies, also known as Lost Ladies, has just been submitted for Bafta consideration. Set in 2001 in rural India, it follows two separate newlywed brides, Phool and Jaya, whose lives take unexpected turns after a mix-up on a crowded train. It's director, filmmaker Kiran Rao joins Nuala live in the studio to discuss the film and its variety of female characters.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Middle-aged women of a certain age. It was in the bulletin, it is a hashtag and it's also a conversation following an Instagram video by the TV presenter Greg Wallace. What did you think when you saw it or heard about it? And also, I want to hear from younger, older and not middle class women.

I want your voices today because I just want to know your thoughts. 844 is the number to text. You will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. Use the number 03700 100 444. We're going to get into that conversation in just a moment, but also this hour. We have Kiran Rao, the Indian filmmaker on her new film, La Pata Ladies or Lost Ladies. It has Oscar nominee potential.

It's a romp through the Indian countryside on a train, but it also explores serious issues affecting Indian women. That discussion coming up. And to something that you may have experience of, uterine fibroids. They do affect black women disproportionately. We're going to hear about the implications of having fibroids and ask also why there's still such a silence around them. And we will hear about the unsolved murder of Tina Wing

that took place 32 years ago. Her son will be here with me in studio. But first to the MasterChef presenter Greg Wallace. He has been criticised by former contestants for saying that complaints about his alleged historical misconduct have come from a handful of middle-class women of a certain age. He has stepped aside from presenting MasterChef after a BBC News investigation heard allegations he had made inappropriate sexual comments. His lawyers have strongly denied that he engages in sexually harassing behaviour. This is what Greg Wallace posted on Instagram. I've been doing MasterChef for 20 years. Amateur, celebrity and professional MasterChef. And I think in that time, I have worked with over 4,000 contestants of all different ages,

all different backgrounds, all walks of life and apparently now I'm reading in the paper there's been 13 complaints in that time now in the newspaper I can see the complaints coming from a handful of middle class women of a certain age just from Celebrity Masterchef. This isn't right. In 20 years, over 20 years of television, can you imagine how many women, female contestants on MasterChef have made sexual remarks or sexual innuendo. Can you imagine? Greg Wallace there. Well, on Saturday, Banja UK, the production company that produces MasterChef, announced it had appointed a rigorous law firm at Lewis Silken to lead an investigation into Wallace's alleged misconduct.

Joining me to discuss is former Labour MP and chair of the Fawcett Society, Harriet Harman, and Dorothy Byrne, former head of news and current affairs at Channel 4, now president at Murray Edwards College, Cambridge University, which is a college for women. You're so welcome, both of you. I see my first message coming in from Dr Heather Kintzler. I'm a middle class, a middle aged,

and hate the implication that we don't count. Let me begin with you Dorothy. First, your thoughts. Well, he says this comes from a handful of middle aged, middle class women of a certain age, actually, there are many complaints now about him. He is a man of a certain age, the age of the dinosaurs, and he has proven his misogyny yet again by criticising women for being older. We know that misogynists particularly dislike older women,

I think partly because we're more powerful. But there are no women in this country, young women, working class women, no women, want to listen to smutty jokes, jokes about rape, a man questioning women about lesbian sex, a man sharing details of his sex life. There are no women want that. And I will say these are allegations, again, that his lawyers have strongly denied that he engages in sexually harassing behaviour.

But Harriet, I was curious what your thoughts were, particularly the phrase middle-class women of a certain age. Well, I think that the fact is that although younger women are often more likely to be subjected to lewd and predatory and harassing male behaviour at work, mostly they're not in a position to protest about it because they're far down the hierarchy and might think that if they did protest about it they just wouldn't be re-employed again if they were a freelancer and therefore it is older women middle-class women who are in more senior positions who feel able to speak out about it but i think what is ominous about this response of greg wallace He could have just left it and said, I didn't say what was alleged. I didn't behave like that.

But instead, what he's doing is he's doubling down and pushing back against it and somehow challenging the legitimacy and the entitlement of people to complain. And I think this is part of a misogynist backlash, part of the culture wars,

part of anti-woke, which basically seeks to challenge the right of women to protest by caricaturing them as just being older, middle-class women, when in fact,

probably the most likely people to be subjected to this sort of thing are younger women. But do you think, I don't know how carefully he chose his words beforehand or not, but they are the words that he did use that were broadcast on Instagram. Do you think perhaps he's thinking a certain demographic will, it will resonate with that fact of a middle class woman of a certain age, particularly out to get him? I think he's just doing a pushback in order to challenge the notion that anybody can complain

against male bad behaviour at work. And it's very much part of the Trump-Andrew Tate reform playbook. You don't deal with the allegations individually, just you actually try and challenge the right of people to complain about them. I think it's good that these middle class older women have spoken up in addition to some of the younger women that have spoken up. Because if we are in a more senior position, and we are able to speak up, then that challenges the impunity that senior men have. And the point about Greg Wallace is that he's very much at the top of the tree. You know, he's talent. He's very senior and important to the programmes. And therefore, my conjecture is if a more junior man behaved like this,

he would have been challenged much earlier on. His behaviour probably would have been stopped or he would have no longer been re-employed. But the problem is when you've got a senior man who is powerful in the hierarchy in this situation, then the behaviour goes unchallenged and younger women just have to put up with it. OK, there's a lot there.

One thing I will say, I know you've put Donald Trump, Andrew Tate and reform in the same basket there. A lot of people might disagree with the characterisation, of course, very different cases that we could talk about at length. But I do want to get into a

couple of aspects that you brought up. But first, because, as you can imagine, 84844, I put out the number, and a lot of people want to respond to what they heard. These middle-class, middle-aged women are the ones who fought back at the start of feminism about such behaviour. Obviously, the message hasn't got through so we need

to continue complaining. That's Michelle that's in Nottingham. Hello, Greg has basically implied that these women are Karen's, a term used to control and undermine women with an opinion. That is Nancy from Sanderstedt. And another anonymous, I'm 39 and from what I've heard so far it's jokes

and poor tastes and actions of a man of his age. Poor form dad jokes, but nothing that needs as much attention as he is getting. A disciplinary and a threat to pack it in or get sacked is all that should happen by his employers. We don't need jury and death by media. We can't keep judging the actions of yesterday by the stick of today. Let me throw that to you, Dorothy. Well, he's been doing it today.

This isn't yesterday. You know, when I started work, which would be nearly 60 years ago, this sort of talk and behaviour was rife. But it has no place in the workplace now. And what we've seen in recent days quite often has been these middle age, middle class women speaking up for the young women who were on set, who they saw in their view being mistreated. And in television in particular, you have a disparity of power. You have the often male presenter, still I'm afraid to say, who is very highly paid, who's regarded on very short-term contracts in an industry in which the levels of unemployment in some of the rules is actually about 60%. So they are pretty powerless people.

And when I started out in TV, suffered this sort of behaviour and much, much worse. You know, I suffered assault. I couldn't speak out then. But when I became a head of news and current affairs at Channel 4, and now that I am the president of a college for women at Cambridge, now I do speak out because now I have the power which I lacked when I began in TV and when men regularly assaulted me. Well, I completely agree with that. And I would take issue with the listener who said, let's not judge him today by yesterday's standards. It was never acceptable for men to be creepy and lewd and predatory and harass women at work. It was always horrible for women to be subjected to that. But it was just that we didn't feel there was any possibility of complaining. So it's not that standards have changed. Women have always felt they shouldn't have to put up with it, but they just didn't feel there was any avenue to complain at all. Now there is a possibility of women complaining, and those things which have always gone on and have always made women feel really uncomfortable at work are now

being challenged. And what we're seeing is the backlash, the misogynist backlash, the culture wars regarded as anti-woke, which seems to seeks to turn the clock back. And I think that women are not going to accept the notion that actually we can be divided, divided between older women and younger women, divided between middle class women and working class women. No, I think women are going to resist this backlash and say we want decent standards at work. I'd really like to hear from younger and older women who are not middle class as well. 84844. I do want to read out the statement by the BBC. A BBC spokesperson has said we take any issues that are raised with us seriously.

We have robust processes in place to deal with them. We're always clear that any behaviour which falls below the standards expected by the BBC will not be tolerated. But there's a couple of issues that come to mind as I hear from both of you, Dorothy and Harriet. One is the word talent used around Greg, which of course there has been this contentious issue about whether that is a correct term to use or whether it should be eliminated because it gives maybe too much power to a certain person. And the other was talking about, you know, young men and women that perhaps felt they couldn't speak up. But what about middle-aged men?

I mean, it has been women that have taken this to the media. Any thoughts on that? Perhaps I'll start with you, Harriet. Well, I agree. I think that it shouldn't just be women speaking up about having decent standards and equality in the workplace we do need male allies to speak up as well this is

not just a debate that affects women it affects you know standards in work life and it shouldn't just be left to women to speak up. I think in the past, men have felt a bit hesitant to speak up on women's rights, because the idea was that we should be speaking about our rights, and we don't need men speaking for us. But actually, now, I think the sort of advance of feminism and the greater confidence of the women's movement means that we can say to men, yes, we don't want you just not to be sexual predators. We don't want you to just not be discriminating. We want you to stand up as allies of women in the workplace and speak out against this. So I'm just waiting to hear the men who will ally themselves with women who are countering the backlash that Greg Wallace is seeking to engender.

Are you surprised, Dorothy, that that no man spoke up before this? I mean, if we're talking about the time span that this appears to have been taking place. Yes, yes. And I think it is incumbent on men to speak out. I suppose what I'm really getting at as well, because some may say there have been male voices over the past few days, I'm really talking about in bringing it to light, it seems to be always a woman that does that.

No, I absolutely agree with you. And it's for men to speak up. It is not just for women to speak up. You are both completely right about that. And yes, a few men have spoken up in the last few days. But I would ask, where were they in the past more than a decade when women were complaining? We need men to speak up about us being subjected to this sort of behaviour.

Let me read some of the comments that are coming in. Here's Sandy. She says, let's not forget that he isn't representative of men of his background and generation. I'm married to one. Council has kid.

No university degree. Market trader for a while. He's disgusted by Wallace. Another, I'm 47. We couldn't speak when we were younger, so we speak now. His behaviour should be called out and hopefully other men will recognise something in themselves and make

changes. And one more. I thought the Greg Wallace issue was overblown until I heard his response. Instead of apologising if he had caused any unintended offence, he made a veiled slate at the accuser's class and age rather than middle class women of a certain age. They are intelligent

mature women who have the confidence to call out sexist, immature, barrow boy. Some people might have an issue with that language which is completely inappropriate in the workplace and in general. 84844 if you want to get in touch. I saw this morning

on Today the MP Rupert Huck has suggested that BBC pause showing MasterChef on TV. Do you think that's the right move, Dorothy, first? Well, I think probably they should pause it. I think we need to look at that statement you just read out, they claim they have robust processes, but we know that he was warned by one of the most senior executives in television in 2017 that his behaviour was unacceptable and all the evidences it carried on. And in the BBC statement you read out, it said behaviour like this wouldn't be tolerated. That's exactly what it was wouldn't be tolerated. That's exactly what it was. It was tolerated. And I think much more for me than whether or not they should pause

MasterChef. They probably should because they brought it into disrepute. I think they need to bring in outside HR consultants or an individual to look at what has gone wrong that the BBC, as a public service broadcaster, should not be tolerating tawdry and smutty behaviour in the workplace. That is the statement. I will read it one more time. You alluded to it there, Dorothy, just if people are joining us. The BBC spokesperson said, we take any issues that are raised with us seriously. We have robust processes in place to deal with them. We're always clear that any behaviour which falls

below the standards expected by the BBC will not be tolerated. And I do understand that the BBC is undergoing a workplace culture review at the moment. I should also actually read the statement from Banerjee UK, which is the production company that makes MasterChef. They said in a statement regarding Greg Wallace, whilst these complainants have not raised the allegations

directly with our show producers or parent company, Banerjee UK, we feel it's appropriate to conduct an immediate external review to fully and impartially investigate. While this review is underway, Greg Wallace will be stepping away from the role on Masterchef as we know and is committed to fully cooperating throughout the process and I should say Mr Wallace's lawyers

strongly deny that he engaged in sexually harassing behaviour. We shall see what comes next. Thanks so much for all your calls that have come in and also to former Labour MP and Chair of the Fawcett Society Harriet Harman and Dorothy Byrne, former Head of News and Current Affairs at Channel 4,

now President at Murray Edwards College at Cambridge University, which is a college for women. Thanks to you both. Now, joining me in studio is a young man called Daniel Wing. He was just a year old when his mother Tina was murdered. It was a brutal

killing and I should give you a warning that there are some distressing details when it comes to her murder. She was stabbed and strangled in the grounds of a psychiatric hospital where she was being treated. 32 years on, the murder still remains unsolved. Daniel's father stood trial but was acquitted. Now Daniel has thrown a spotlight on the case in a two-part documentary. It's called Who Murdered You Mum? Through making the documentary

Daniel has been inspired to start campaigning to end violence against women and girls and Daniel joins me alongside Harriet Johnson who also appears in the programme. Harriet is a barrister who wrote the book Enough! The Violence Against Women and How to End It. You're both very welcome to Woman's Hour and maybe

I can start with you, Daniel. I'm very sorry for your loss at such a young age. I mentioned your mum there. Tina was being treated in a psychiatric hospital when she was killed. How much were you able to find out about what happened? Firstly, thank you for having me on. It's a real privilege to be able to share my story and my mum's story,

especially when there are so many women that are murdered and so many cases that are unsolved. So, yeah, so this was a quest for answers for me because I didn't have any. And I was able to find out a lot. I was able to find out a lot. I was able to find out about the case, and really what it was for me was a kind of acknowledgement and appreciation for my mum,

find out really why she had been forgotten, why has the case been unsolved, why did we get no answers, and yeah, it was... That must be quite something, because I think you were coming really to the age she was when she died um when you started a lot of the investigating yeah um so I was 32 um when we started filming and we got the film commissioned um which was the age she was when she was murdered which weirdly has given me it weirdly is a bit of a blessing i suppose because now i live life through both of our eyes

everything i do is kind of a spur on moment really of like you didn't get the opportunity for this let's go out and do it i've had to call ins before actually or people messaging sometimes when they reach the age that their parent died it can be a very pivotal moment in their life it can be quite profound so I can understand what you were going through there but why do you think her story really was frozen in time I suppose and that there was no more investigations how do you understand it now, after trying to figure out what happened and speaking to as many people as possible? Yeah, so I think, I think, really, it's a time capsule. I think it really does kind of set the scene of what the 90s were like and policing and media.

But I think actually being able to explore it, maybe the thoughts that I felt like I had maybe weren't true. DNA wasn't as advanced then. Yes, of course. Big deal. Yeah. And laws were different. There was only one suspect at the time. So I think even like going back to like media coverage, it wasn't looking for anyone else.

That was really something. So in the documentary, you go back and you look and there's this small piece about your dear mother in the papers. You'd gone to the library to try and figure out what was written about her at the time. There was another woman that was killed not that long after who got an awful lot of media coverage. And there's that aspect that you bring to the fore,

which is really about the right sort of victim. Yeah, the perfect victim. I actually, I have two perspectives about it. Firstly, I'm really grateful that actually everything wasn't out there. And before going sober three years ago, I'm really grateful that I wasn't drunk and all people at school could Google and... People didn't know the backstory. I was grateful that I could take the control and go on that journey. I think where my mum's reporting or lack of, I think really does come from the fact that they wasn't searching for anyone else, whereas the case that happened after they were looking for someone. But I think really what it is, is about actually the reporting about the after. This was a case that went unsolved and this is a woman murdered.

And I think what sometimes saddens me is that still times haven't changed where you do have headlines like sex game gone wrong. Instead of acknowledging the fact that a woman's been murdered here. So it's really about... How things are framed. Your mother, she had mental health issues that were severe for a number of reasons, but it was a psychiatric hospital where she was killed. And I know you talk about perhaps some of that leading to people not caring, to put it very frankly,

as much as perhaps they could have. Let's bring in Harriet Johnson. You know, Daniel talks about some of the circumstances there, about how his mother wasn't investigated, perhaps, in the way that he would have liked to. Do you think things have improved over the past 32 years? You know, Daniel makes mention of certain present-day cases. I think certainly some elements have improved so technology has improved so at the time of tina's murder it was generally only

able to we were only able to take a blood group or a blood type from a blood sample whereas now we can get full dna samples so things like that have really helped. There have also been some updates in the law that have really helped in general when it comes to violence against women. So coercive and controlling behaviour is now recognised as a specific crime, which it wasn't at the time. We have quite strict rules about cross-examination of victims or complainants in sexual assault cases, for example. So things have improved. And yet statistically, we know that convictions for violence against women are still far lower than we'd like them to be.

And the levels of violence against women are still far higher than we'd like them to be. So it's still two women a week who are murdered by a violent partner or ex-partner, which is altogether too high. In the run-up to the general election, the Labour Party pledged to change the laws on misogyny and make misogyny a hate crime. Do you think that'll happen? I'd really like to see that happen. I think in some ways it would be very helpful and it would also be an important reflection of the seriousness of the problem. As to whether or not it will do any good, I think some of the difficulties we have in terms of violence against women

is that the laws that we have are not used by police officers or by the CPS. So things like street harassment, for example, is already a crime. And yet the prosecution rates are so low that one has to wonder whether introducing a new crime or a new aggravated crime is going to make much difference if the powers themselves aren't being used. The other aspect back in 2021, the Law Commission looked at whether to make misogyny a hate crime, and they said that making it so could create unhelpful hierarchies of victims and in some cases be counterproductive. Yeah, and Boris Johnson, when asked about making misogyny a hate crime, said that to do so would overload the police, which was an interesting take on the problem. I think the difficulty we have with misogyny not being a hate crime is that all sorts of other things are a hate crime. So crimes against minority groups are quite properly, I would suggest, hate crimes. So if you assault somebody

or commit a crime against somebody based on their disability or on their ethnicity or on their religion, that is, I would say, properly, treated as a more serious crime. Yet if you commit a crime against a woman based on hatred of women, that is not a more serious crime. And yet we know that violence against women is so prevalent. And that, I think, is where the disparity

and the sort of dissonance comes from. Back to you, Daniela, you talk about now campaigning a lot around this issue. Also, you've met with the Met Police as part of their review of the case. What was that like? Yeah, I mean, I didn't actually know that. I kind of explore this in the film. I didn't even know that it was an option to be able to go in to see the police.

So it was amazing, really, to actually find out details about my mum's case from an official perspective. It really kind of put in place, not focusing so much on the past, but also what are we doing now? And there is potential for investigation if there is new and compelling evidence, which is positive and something I wouldn't have even known six months ago. And besides, do you have any thoughts on that, whether it should be a hate crime? think well i do i think what was really interesting from this experience is actually just my understanding i think really we need to be opening conversations up about men and boys and

nurturing their emotions from the start i think sometimes there are a lot of pressures on men and boys that 12 year old boy who doesn't have a dad present but is being called man of the house and I think it's hard when there aren't positive male role models around for men to look up to and I really think these conversations need to be opened up definitely about nurturing emotions and really I think there are a lot of pressures on men sometimes and maybe the expectations are they should just understand without maybe like but coming from um really a little boy I think is what I'm hearing you say I think so I think it's it starts young and it's it's seeing isn't it it's conditioning it's the environment

you're in it's about it's about's about seeing intimate relationships in front of you from your parents, being intimate, touching each other, giving each other hugs and kisses and understanding really what that looks like. So a role model, a more positive role model. I think so. I think it really does start from that. I should also say that we'd asked the government for a statement on the current status of the progress of making misogyny a hate crime as was laid out by Labour ahead of the election.

And a government spokesperson said tackling misogyny requires a concerted multi-agency approach. We've set out an unprecedented mission to have violence against women and girls in a decade by improving the police and criminal justice system response, relentlessly pursuing dangerous perpetrators

and providing support for victims. Every lever at our disposal will be used to deliver this mission across the whole of government with policing and the violence against women and girls sector. But it is interesting what you say, Daniel, it's kind of a different part or a different approach. What do you hope people get from the documentary? I hope people feel empowered to be able to explore their journey. With other people that have had loved ones that have been affected in some way? I mean, what was really important for me was this, making this film was the discovery part, really. This after part is sharing it with people to show there's life after grief. And to move forward, I think, is really hard.

You know, when there's things that you want to do, I'd love to get justice for my mum, but I also am realistic that I am a year older than what she was when she was murdered. And so that does give me a new lease of life. And I think my nan... Who raised you? Who raised me, amazing woman 60 years old

with a one like one year old became a mother again sadly I lost her two years ago I'm sorry um thank you and I think it's really about that moving forward I don't think it would be fair on her sacrifice of what she done for me if I just focused on the pain it's really I really wanted to share the story to empower people to live after grief yeah you smile a lot and you look very like your mum when you smile thank you but you do you can see it right when we see Tina in the pictures as well Daniel Wing and Harriet Johnson thank you both for coming in. And to let you know that the two-part documentary, Who Murdered You, Mum? is streaming on Crime and Investigation Channel, which you can also get through Amazon Prime and Sky.

And if you have been affected by anything that you've heard in our conversation, there are resources and support lines available. Just head to BBC Action Line. Now I want to read some of your comments that have been coming in about Greg Wallace. Charlotte, I'm 31. I work as a receptionist and often older men will make uncomfortable dad jokes and innuendo.

I know I shouldn't, but I always laugh along out of politeness and discomfort. Let's not pretend Greg Wallace is just one bad apple. This is a systemic issue across the entertainment industries. On a positive note, perhaps he has helpfully given women of a certain age their own contemporary Me Too movement, especially in an industry that values youth above all else.

Another from Christine Lingfield. Greg Wallace's use of the term women of a certain age for me was a reference to menopause. This is a reflection of society where women who are no longer of childbearing age are considered less worthy of opinion and voice. Misogyny around female ageing is pervasive and needs further debate in society. We need to educate the younger generations about women's worth regardless of age and looks. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on one of the conversations that we're having this morning. Now, December. We're in December. This is some exciting news for you. Well, for me

particularly as well. Anita and I are going to be presenting the Woman's Hour Christmas Day special together. So we're very excited to get into the studio. It is the season of comfort and joy. So we want to talk about comfort. Many of us crave that at this time of year. And it also got us thinking about how and why we create a safe comfort zone around us and also what it means to push ourselves out of that. And what does that feel like? So I wanted to ask you,

have you forced yourself out of your comfort zone this year? If so, how? How has it felt? Where has it taken you? We are keen to have your stories as part of the programme. So get in touch.

Yes, it's the usual ways, 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. I'm very excited to get to present with my co-presenter, Anita Ranney, that will be coming up at Christmas. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, I want to move on to something that affects so many of you. According to the NHS, by age 50, up to 80% of black women and up to 70% of white women have fibroids. These are non-cancerous growths that develop in or around the womb.

They're made up of muscle and fibrous tissue. They vary in size. Black women experience larger uterine fibroids from an earlier onset, so an earlier age, with more frequent and debilitating symptoms. That's according to the National Institute of Health in the United States. And my guest today is Professor Nicola Rollick, who's best known for academic research and writing on race and society. As a friend of Woman's Hour, she approached us to ask if she could come and talk about something more personal, her

own experience of uterine fibroids. And she also wanted to talk about in the process of finding out more about them, the experience of black women. So she joins me to do that. And she's alongside Hilary Critchley, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at the University of Edinburgh and a consultant gynaecologist. Welcome to you both. Good morning. Good morning, Nicola. Let me start with you. So what was, how did you experience it, this particular condition? What were the symptoms? I know many women may not have no symptoms whatsoever when they have fibroids, but you did. Yeah, I did. And thank you, Nuala. So I was in hospital under investigation for what I believed was an unrelated matter. And I was told that I had fibroids.

And at the time, I didn't really give it much thought because I understood they were benign. And yes, they occurred in the womb. But as I said, I didn't give it much thought but they began to grow and they grew so large in fact that they caused quite considerable discomfort so generally I'm a size 10 used to be a size 8 of my youth but no longer but these fibroids grew in my stomach and the lining of my womb. So it appeared as if I was six months pregnant. And I had to try and lift myself from a sofa in the same way that you would see a woman who is actually pregnant do the same thing. So causing discomfort, difficulty in terms of clothes, but also pressure on my bladder so it was really horrible

and I wanted to understand a bit more about them. So you you went on that journey of trying to investigate more what options were you given to alleviate symptoms? Well I didn't actually understand what the options were and it wasn't until the beginning of lockdown when the fibroids had grown to quite a considerable size that I spoke again to my consultant on the NHS and I was told that I had four options to do nothing and wait for the onset of menopause with the view that that there'd be a decline or reduction in oestrogen and therefore a reduction in the fibroids. I was also told that I could have an embolism, so in other words, cut off the blood supply that was feeding the fibroids,

a myomectomy, which is open invasive surgery to remove the fibroids, and then finally I was told I could have a hysterectomy and I was absolutely shocked. Now as you introduced me at the beginning of this item I'm an academic so I went away to go and do my due diligence to carry out research but I was really shocked that apart from a very brief summary on the NHS website and a series of medical articles, I couldn't find anything. And what I was looking for was, if you will, a one-stop portal that would give the intelligent layperson a summary of what fibroids are, how to live with them, and indeed, as in my case, how to weigh up the various pros and cons of taking any

of those options and I couldn't find it anywhere. I'm going to jump over to Hilary who's in studio with me. Why do you think there is this silence in some ways around fibroids considering so many women have them 70 80 percent by age 50? So first of all a huge thank you for being allowed to be part of this important conversation and to hear Professor Rollock's really impactful story. I think we have a problem that one of the biggest symptoms of fibroids is heavy periods which we just don't talk about. We still have a long-standing taboo around talking about periods menstruation and professor rollock nicola has shared very much the symptoms of pressure but one of the main symptoms is also heavy bleeding the risk of iron deficiency iron

deficiency anemia and because it is a symptom experienced by one in three and of those many will have fibroids as we've heard it's just not talked about it's normalized so there is a delay in seeking attention and we need to increase education we need to as our colleague Nicola said we need to, as our colleague Nicola said, we need to make information available. And I think we then have the opportunity to begin to identify those who may have fibroids. And they are commoner, as you've described, among black women. We know they will experience the symptoms perhaps a decade earlier. A study quite recently among over 1,500 participants showed that the ages in mid-20s to mid-30s, maybe as many as one in four would have fibroids.

So we need to be much better at earlier diagnosis. You know, one thing I was thinking of when I was researching your research yesterday is that we talk about heavy periods, but we don't really know what a heavy period is because you never see anybody else's period. No, and we don't talk about it. Do you know what I mean? That's what I mean. We don't have a measurement, for example, like you know if you've broken your arm or something what it looks like or what is something but we don't have that. So a normal period might be if you wanted a figure

about 40 mils so that's equivalent to two to three tablespoons. Now somebody with fibroids and this is the research we do and I give a huge thank you to the very many participants in our research studies who've allowed us to measure their blood loss. And we know that some with fibroids will lose 10 times that, almost equivalent each month to a pint of blood. And imagine if you were going to a blood transfusion center each month, how exhausted and how tired you would feel. But those blood losses can be of that magnitude. Yes. And of course, it's even with those numbers, it's difficult mixed with water or

lining or you need to try and understand exactly what is a heavy period. And I suppose all... Sure, please do. Sorry, just add a little bit of, to use an unfortunate metaphor. In the course of talking to various women about their experiences, I was really stunned by what they were saying back to me in terms of how they were surviving heavy periods. And in my own case, I recall going into a bathroom, changing sanitary towels, so I was ready for my journey, my onward journey.

And I left the toilet and 30 seconds later, I needed to go to the bathroom again. Just to give a sense of really how pressing and also the flooding, what's described as the flooding and the gushing that happens when you have exceptionally heavy periods. And I heard from women who would describe only wearing black, you know, in their day to day or only wearing trousers. Or a woman who talked about having to stop, pull over in her car, jump out and get a plastic bag from the boots so she could lie in her seat. I mean, it got to such an extent for me, and I wasn't one of these women who had exceptionally and consistently heavy periods, but it got to such an extent for me that I now have a mental map of the toilets that I made, public toilets that I can visit in the middle of London. And there will be many women that will totally women that will totally resonate with Professor Nicola Rollick.

I do want to say, if you have concerns, of course, do go to your GP for your individual symptoms that you may have. Message came in, I want to read it. You try fibroids. I'm a 58-year-old black woman who is three weeks post-op following a hysterectomy for fibroids. The journey to diagnosis, appropriate treatment, just gaining empathy and understanding

for the pain, discomfort and limiting elements of irregular bleeding and incontinence is a challenge. Never mind the long wasting list for gynaecological interventions. I welcome this conversation as being able to share it with my friends. Thank you. And that's Denise in Nottingham. And let's talk about the fact of ethnicity and race as it intersects with uterine fibroids. I mean, when I looked, I couldn't find one specific reason

of why, and I'll throw this to you first, Hilary, and then I'll come to you, Nicola, of why black women suffer disproportionately. So thank you. I think you highlight an area where much research is needed. gene that is slightly changed and that we believe but we need the research to know is that changed more often in black women than white women so where the answers lie will be more research to understand these genetic types whether or not they're present but also how those intersect with environmental factors and I think this is hugely interesting that it's not going to be probably one factor, it's going to be multiple factors. And I think what we raise here is we have an area that has been under-researched,

far less activity in the research field, in the field for looking at treatments, particularly drug treatments, compared to other conditions which may have even less burden. And so impactful was the story, again, shared by Nicola, shared by your listener. And what we realise is that these are symptoms that take young people out of education. They take them out of the workplace.

And the costs of absenteeism, but particularly even when you're present, of not working to your full capacity. And there are recent figures published that shows the huge economic impact. So this is an area needing mult-discipline research and across sectors and i didn't mention we talked about anemia and some of the debilitating system symptoms it can of course have complications for pregnancy if the fibroids are in your uterus which could be preventing pregnancy or making it more difficult nicola a last word from you well i mean it says two things one one and i and I'd have to defer to Professor Critchley on this, but we know that oestrogen may be a factor, a contributing factor. But I have also read that

cortisol, the stress hormone, may also be a factor. So along with environmental considerations, there may be a disproportionate impact on stress in terms of why it impacts black women more. But one of the things I'd like to see, and Professor Critchley has spoken to this, is increased research because we don't know enough about them, increased awareness in the workplace. And if there are any production companies out there who would like to focus on this as a documentary, please do get in touch.

We need greater awareness. So the question might be, are fibroids the next menopause As a documentary, please do get in touch. We need greater awareness. So the question might be, are fibroids the next menopause in terms of needing a broader awareness campaign? My guests are nodding. My guests were Professor Nicola Rollick and Professor Hilary Critchley. My thanks. If you are experiencing any of the symptoms, of course, I mentioned go to your GP.

And there are links and information and support on the Woman's Hour website as well. A message coming in, fibroids have had debilitating, heavy periods, flooding and two life-threatening hemorrhages. I was ignored by my GP for years until I saw a woman GP, my mother and grandmother,

had the same issue. Obviously a lot of people that have experience of that. Thanks very much to my guests. And I do want to read a Department of Health and Social Care statement that we have. It is unacceptable that so many women are waiting too long for the care they need. This is why we will

overhaul women's health care, placing women's equality at the heart of our agenda and ensure women's health is never again neglected. Our 10-year health plan, backed by a £26 billion boost for the NHS and social care the budget

will bring down weights in gynaecology so women get the support they need when they need it it's a story we shall continue to cover

but we want to move on to India next and to a film that has been chosen as India's entry for the best international feature category for the 2025 Oscars

just been also submitted to the BAFTAs. It is the Hindi language movie, La Pata Ladies, also known as Lost Ladies. It's set in 2001 in rural India. It follows two separate newlywed brides, Poole and, well, I call her Pushpa or Jaya. That's a little twist in the story.

I'll call her Pushpa for now. Poole and Pushpa, whose lives take unexpected turns after a mix-up on a crowded train. Its director, filmmaker Ciarán Rao joins me in the studio. You're so welcome. Hi, so nice to be here. Loved the film. Oh, I'm so glad. How beautiful. Takes us all through India. And it is, I mentioned earlier, like in some

ways it's a caper, it's a romp, it's fun, it's satirical, but it also takes on some very serious issues. Why did you set it in 2001? six days, which I think with the penetration of the mobile phone and technology, it would have just been unrealistic to think that they just couldn't get in touch. You can't get lost. Yeah, you can't get lost. Couldn't have got lost with Facebook and Instagram and all the rest. So mostly that. They're on a train. I won't give spoilers, but there is a veil that they wear. And so there's a mix up that a lot of fun and laughter from it,

but also brings up issues. And, you know, even mentioning the mobile phone there, one of the first things I noticed, the dowry. So the price that is paid from the woman's family to the man's family.

There was a motorcycle and a mobile phone in one aspect. But why did you decide to tackle issues like that, that are controversial, that are contentious in that way? I think we knew that this story sort of lent itself to exploring a whole bunch of issues that women face, among them, like you said, dowry,

but really very importantly, the lack of freedom and choice that girls have to decide what they want to do with their lives. And we thought that the best way to do it would be through humor, to look at, you know, things that are unpleasant in a less serious way. And for a second, it just got us out of, you know, raising hackles. It was an easier way to talk about these things and not get into, like you said, run into controversy. So just I was making a little list just as I was watching the film. So some of the things that it touches on, the dowry, as we mentioned, domestic abuse, money, the importance of keeping your jewellery safe, for example, trust in police as a woman or bribes, covering your face, your identity at times,

and really, I suppose, traditional versus modern. Particularly, I think, with some of those aspects, do you think it's changed a lot since 2001, the stories that we are seeing in your film? Well, I do think in 20 years, things have changed. Data will prove that there are a lot more women who are educated now. There's, you know, there's a lot more freedoms, especially in many parts of the country, which have developed to a certain extent. But we are a very vast and diverse country, and it's very hard to generalize. So I know that there's a lot of work to be done. And there's still many, many places

where women have to fight to get an education, to not be married, to make certain decisions about their lives. So I feel it's still topical. And I think universally women deal with fairly similar struggles to different degrees, you know, across the world. So I do think it's still resonant. I think it's also, I suppose, for all of the women that were in it, it's about being listened to or being heard. And I suppose that comes in at various levels in different places around the world as well. There was one aspect I loved as well. There was food throughout it. Delicious food. And in many ways, telling a story as well. But there is one line about the women cooking just what the men want. And another woman says, I can't even remember what I like.

I think that's the case of so many women who sort of, in many ways, lose their identity when they get married. They are so busy taking care of everyone else. They absolutely forget to make time and space for themselves and what they love. And like she so poignantly puts it, you know, she's unaccustomed to being praised for her cooking. And then when they say, you know, why don't you make what you like?

She was like, I don't even remember what I like anymore, which I feel is so poignant because it's true. You kind of give away a little bit of who you are when you kind of join this partnership. The other part which I wasn't aware of, which Mani may be in India, but was about not saying this in rural India, not saying the husband's name, that it was disrespectful to actually say it out loud, to utter it, and instead names were hennaed on a hand, for example.

Does that still happen? I'm sure it does in some parts of the country. Women who are, I suppose, from a certain class and from cities don't really do that anymore. But I think for a certain generation of women, it still continues. You were working with your ex-husband on this. You were married for 16 years. You've been a creative duo for many projects. That is Amir Khan. You announced your divorce in 2021. But I'm fascinated

with that, that the work and the love of the work continues. Absolutely. We actually have a great working relationship. We were quite sure that we didn't want to lose that sort of creative collaboration. And we continue to be family.

So we have a son that we raise as co-parents. And in general, we've relied on each other for creative inputs on so many things. So it feels quite natural to work with him. I would love to hear from other listeners on that if we weren't coming to the end of the hour, whether they have managed that as well. This is very exciting, that potential Oscar nominee. I was reading that you feel it has been built, this coming of success on the backs of other

women. Who should we know about? Oh, there's so many. I mean, starting with Savitri Bhai Phule, one of our great women who fought for women's education more than 150 years ago. It's been a long struggle. I've been very fortunate to be able to make films. I feel highly privileged and I want to use that privilege to do something. And I hope this starts a conversation on many things that we would like to see change on. It's been lovely having you in studio. Again, La Pata, ladies, or Lost Ladies. I loved watching it. It brings you across India on this train journey, but also to the villages. The director is Kiran Rao.

It's on Netflix right now and lots of subtitles as well, depending on whatever language you speak. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to us. Tomorrow, I'm joined in studio by the acting legends, Ciara Knightley and Sarah Lancashire. They're going to tell us more

about their new spy thriller, Black Doves. That will be coming up at 10am. But I did want to read some more of your messages on Greg Wallace. I'm very frustrated around all the negative comments on the programme about Greg Wallace. If this person has committed a crime, then obviously he needs to be brought to justice. However, I'm sick to death of women taking offence of comments, then complaining weeks, months or years later.

Just deal with it in the moment. If you don't like it, say so. Give as good as you get. Dare I say, grow a pair of girls and stop being so soft. I'm a 56-year-old mother of three women who I brought up to be strong and independent. I have encountered unacceptable sexual innuendo in the workplace

but found that by giving as good as I get, I shut them up. I think society has swung too far in the wrong direction. We'll talk again tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. One winter's night in 1974, a crime took place That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. this, of all crimes, captured our imagination. It's partly that the evidence is so murky.

As I try to get to the bottom of the case, my preconceptions are blown apart. I mean, this is a pretty weird stuff to have in a box, isn't it? What on earth is this for? The Lucan Obsession with me, Alex von Tunselman, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.