Woman's Hour - Group screaming, Kim Leadbeater, Breast cancer treatment, Separated fostered siblings, Lazy Susan

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

Downing Street has said the Prime Minister will not be apologising for claiming that the Labour Leader Sir Keir Starmer, while Director of Public Prosecutions failed to prosecute Jimmy Saville for sexual assault - a claim that is false. There have been renewed calls for Boris Johnson to retract the comments after Sir Keir was targeted yesterday by a gang of protestors near Parliament - some of whom could be heard shouting "paedophile protector". The Prime Minister has described the demonstrators' behaviour as "disgraceful". It brings to the fore the issue of MPs and their public safety. Kim Leadbeater is the sister of murdered Labour MP Jo Cox, and now represents her sister's former constituency of Batley and Spen for Labour. She speaks to Emma.New analysis says that almost 300,000 people were unable to see a cancer specialist within two weeks of an urgent referral between April and November last year. The research, which used information from the House of Commons library and was commissioned by the Labour Party, found that more than 90,000 of those breaches were for people who may have breast cancer. As the Prime Minister promises new targets to tackle the backlog, Chief Executive of Breast Cancer Now, Baroness Delyth Morgan explains what this means for breast cancer patients.Have you ever felt like you wanted to scream from the top of your lungs? You’d be in good company. Last month, a group of Massachusetts mothers in the US decided to get all their pandemic frustrations off their chests by shouting in a group in the middle of a football field. It has inspired others women around the US to do the same. Could this craze come to the UK? Behaviour and data scientist, Professor Pragya Agarwal, decided to start screaming with her daughters during lockdown. Dr Rebecca Semmens-Wheeler explains why it might feel good but might not be the healthiest way of feeling better. A new BBC Three documentary presented by reporter Ashley John-Baptiste explores sibling separation in the UK care system. What is the impact for a child in foster care to be separated from their sisters or brothers? Rachel Musekiwa and Keilagh Brinkley are two young women who were both separated from their siblings in care. They tell us their experiences.A new all-female sketch show called Lazy Susan premiered this month on BBC Three and iPlayer. The series features some hilarious new characters from the comedy duo Freya Parker and Celeste Drin, alongside some of those best-loved from their stage shows. Unique and powerful women, like this pair of comedians, are taking over comedy from every direction. That's according to the Director of BBC Comedy, Shane Allen, who says: “Five years ago there were still articles asking where all the funny women were." Freya and Celeste join EmmaPresenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Kim Leadbeater Interviewed Guest: Baroness Delyth Morgan Interviewed Guest: Professor Pragya Agarwal Interviewed Guest: Dr Rebecca Semmens-Wheeler Interviewed Guest: Rachel Musekiwa Interviewed Guest: Keliagh Brinkley Interviewed Guest: Freya Parker Interviewed Guest: Celeste Drin

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Ah! That is the sound of Sally Bowles, played by Liza Minnelli in the film Cabaret, screaming under a bridge. Do you ever feel like screaming? Do you do it silently into a cushion or out loud?

And perhaps it surprised you, made you feel better. You weren't aware of your own volume, of your own power, of your own roar. Last month, a group of women in America decided to get all of their pandemic frustrations off their chests by shouting in a group in the middle of a football field. It's inspired other women around America to do the same. I'll be talking to a woman here in the UK who also took to screaming with her daughters during the pandemic. But what about you? Do you scream? If you don't, what do you do instead?

How do you get it out? Whatever it is you need to get out. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Of course, whatever you want to say, I suppose some of you may send us some of your screams on social media or on voice notes. We can hear those. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour

or email us through our website. Of course, there'll be some of you thinking, well, I couldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. I don't dare do that because of the tropes around hysterical women and the way that we're viewed if we're slightly uncontrolled or unhinged. But I think hearing that scream this morning, it

may inspire or it may revile you. You tell me, where are you about screaming? Let me know. Also on today's programme, the Health Secretary's so-called war on cancer and how it affects breast cancer. And meet Lazy Susan, the comedy duo dubbed two of the funniest women in the UK. All that to come. But first, as you've been hearing in the news,

Downing Street has said the Prime Minister will not be apologising for claiming that the Labour leader, Sakhir Starmer, while Director of Public Prosecutions, failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile for sexual assault, a claim that is false. There have been renewed calls for Boris Johnson to retract the comments after Sakhir was targeted yesterday by a gang of protesters near Parliament, some of whom could be heard shouting, paedophile protector. You may have seen the video. It's been widely shared from a few perspectives online. The Prime Minister has described those demonstrators' behaviour

as disgraceful. It brings to the fore the issue of MPs and their safety once again. Well, who better, I'm sad to say, than to talk to than Kim Ledbetter, the sister, of course, of the murdered Labour MP, Jo Cox, and now an MP herself representing her sister's former constituency of Batley and Spen, again for the Labour Party. Kim, good morning. Good morning, Emma. I'm sorry we have to talk about this in the terms of public safety and how it must

make you and your family feel again. But I know that you feel strongly about this, and you have tweeted about those scenes that you saw yesterday. I have, yeah. I found yesterday really upsetting. It made me really angry. And we have to look at why it happened. And I think ultimately, the individuals who were part of that angry mob have to be clear that things don't happen in a vacuum. And while ever we have a culture of toxicity and aggression and lies in politics, we have to think about the consequences of that. And words and that culture filters down to other people. And it really concerns me that we've got a prime minister who seems to be stoking the anger that people feel in the country at the moment. And that can have real repercussions for society. The prime minister, or rather his operation in Downing Street, which has, of course, been changing in the last few days,

those who represent him, have doubled down. They've said he will not be apologising. What is your reaction to that? I think that's absolutely the wrong thing to do. We've seen time and time again recently situations that the Prime Minister could have made better, he could have calmed people's anger, and actually what he seems to do is just continually make things worse.

And that is just not helpful. And ultimately, look, I don't want to come on this programme and try and score political points that's not why I got involved in politics like lots of good people in parliament I got involved in politics to try and make a difference to people's lives but there has to be a line around accountability of leadership and if we have got a Prime Minister who is primarily trying to save his own skin, that is not good for our country because everything else comes second and that's how I feel about the current situation. Last Wednesday in PMQs, that was a really important statement about the Sue Gray report

and what the Prime Minister did was deflect from that. He deflected, again, from the families who lost loved ones, from the people who made sacrifices, from the horrific situation we all found ourselves in during lockdown. He disrespected victims of sexual abuse and he tried to score points. And we deserve better than that in this country. I spent some of yesterday speaking to a bunch of students and trying to encourage them to get involved in politics and engaged in public life. Why would they want to do that when we see this level of abuse, toxicity and a moral vacuum when it comes to the current leadership of the country? I mean, that's how you would see it in light of these comments. I mean, perhaps you feel like that anyway. There'll be also others,

even though you say you're not coming on here to score political points saying, well, you are a Labour MP, others may see it differently. And it has been, I should say, that that particular comment has been rounded on by many Conservative MPs, both former ministers

and actually some who are still close to the Prime Minister. And we also saw someone very senior, Munir Am Mirza, one of his most senior advisers, resign over that particular comment. And I suppose, do you have any hope that he may retract it? And do you think that would do any good at this point? Just to go back to what you've said, Emma,

yes, I am coming on today as a Labour MP, but I wasn't a Labour MP at the time when Joe was murdered. And I wasn't a Labour MP at the time when Joe was murdered and I wasn't a Labour MP for the last few years and I have tried to call out inappropriate behaviour in public life for the last few years, wherever it has come from. This isn't about one side or the other. We've seen senior Conservative politicians be abused in the street and I've spoken to lots of MPs since I've been in Parliament

about the death threats that they face, the abuse that they face. This is across the political spectrum. And it's men, it's women, sadly. It's often people from ethnic minority backgrounds. This is a culture that needs to change. But it has to start with leadership and it has to start from the top. And that's where the Prime Minister has to take responsibility. And if he's said something that has been proved to be untrue,

he should apologise for that and he should retract that. You know, I'm really, really clear on that, but that broader piece around what our politics looks like and actually what our society looks like is really important. Do we want to live in a country where we've got baying mobs harassing people in the street? You know, I always think about this on a human level. Keir and David's family and friends had to watch those scenes yesterday you're talking just if i may about sir david amos's family of course and the conservative mp who was killed at the end of last year in october well i'm

at yesterday i'm actually talking about david lammy and kim sarma's family who had to watch them being abused in the street but you're absolutely right my family had to watch it david amos's family had to watch it and their Amess's family had to watch it. And their pain will still be very raw. You know, so there is a bigger piece going on here. And, you know, I've always said, of course, we should have robust, passionate political debate in this country. It's the cornerstone of our democracy. But when that descends into abuse, insults, lies and people screaming at each other in the street, I really hope we can agree that a line has been crossed and someone needs to reset the compass on what politics looks like. What is something like yesterday like for you and your family? It's awful.

I mean, I'd got a really busy day planned today. I was meant to be doing a podcast this morning on loneliness. I was going to do some preparation work last night in in my flat and it just totally throws you it totally throws you again because it brings back memories of what happened to us as a family it makes me question why I'm doing this job you know on a really personal human level it's really challenging and I know that I'll be saying for lots of other MPs um and also do you know what more important than any of that personal stuff is the fact that I just want to get on and do my job. It's Children's Mental Health Week.

I've got a speech to write to talk about mental health and how important that is. I've got other stuff to do around. We need to be talking about Afghanistan and Ukraine. We need to be talking about these other subjects. And you're suddenly distracted from all that. And we do have a way to reset the compass but it has to come from the top so we can all get on and do our jobs do you ring your mum on a day like yesterday do you have that

chat does she worry about you doing this job i do i texted my mum last night um and i always said you think i should speak about it um and we have that conversation because again the other thing is as soon as you speak about it you're putting yourself out there. So I then get the pylons on social media. What about this and what about that? And, you know, so you put yourself out there. And I've spoken to female MPs who've quite openly said to me, look, I don't talk about the abuse I get because I don't want to be a victim and I don't want to make it worse. And I don't want to bring attention to my family. And I understand that.

But I also think if people don't speak out, nothing will change. And my mum did say to me, you should say something. It's not right. How do you find being an MP? It's a different world. It's a really different world. But do you know what? There's some really good people in politics, Emma.

And there's a lot of people who have come into this world to try and make a difference to people's lives, which is exactly what I've done. And that's why what's happening at the moment makes me really angry and really upset because it's not doing our politics justice and it's not doing our country justice. I did an interview a few weeks ago with an Italian newspaper, a German newspaper and a French newspaper. Fortunately, I could do it all in English, so it wasn't too bad.

But they were like, what is going on in the UK? This is embarrassing. The world is thinking, you know, you've lost the plot. And I find that really, really sad because we should be so proud of our democracy and we should be so proud of our country. And like I say, most people in politics feel that and most people in politics want to make a difference

to their communities and to our country the country that that we love and that's why this is so sad that it detracts from that so you know I want to focus on on the things I can do to make a difference to people in Batley and Spen and hopefully you know if I can be a little part of trying to make politics a better place to be a more positive place to be then then that'll be good enough for me. But everybody, including the Prime Minister, has to be part of that journey. You know, I'm just struck, there's a poll out today, and I haven't got an equivalent one for men, but Mumsnet did a research of their users, which said more than nine in ten women said they would never stand for election,

while nearly half stated they'd rather give birth again without drugs than get involved in politics um i i just wonder you know what you make of that because you are as you say you this was not thrust upon you but you i know you thought long and hard about whether to stand and whether to go into politics you didn't come into it um almost by choice if i could put it like that no you're totally right at some point i make a choice, but it wasn't a path that I would have ever chosen other than through what had happened to us. Now, I've never given birth, but I have to be honest, at the moment it's looking quite appealing

compared to everything that's going on right now. But on a serious note, you know, again, we need good, strong women in politics. And you're quite right. Why would you look at everything that's going on now and think you want to put yourself forward to be part of that and I really hope women do I really hope young women do I really hope people from ethnic minority backgrounds do because we need representation in politics we need our parliament to look like our society and like our communities

and you know I really hope people aren't discouraged but it is not easy but then we don't make it easy for ourselves sometimes do we and that's what i feel is going on at the moment i think you know politicians have got a responsibility to behave responsibly and at the minute we're not seeing that from certain quarters kim final question have you have you spoken to boris johnson would you be able to to get his ear on this as, of course, you know, the family member, the sister of an MP who lost their life, who was murdered? Look, I don't think Boris Johnson's interested in listening to me. He didn't welcome me to Parliament when I got the job.

I had very little to do with him. He did eventually write a note to me, but I don't think Boris Johnson wants to listen to people like me. I think he wants to save his skin. And I think he wants to make sure he, you know, yeah, he's still prime minister. And at the moment, it feels like that's pretty much all he cares about. And I find that really sad. Kim Ledbetter, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. She's the Labour MP for Batley & Spen, the seat that her sister, the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox, formerly held, talking in response to the fact that Downing Street

has doubled down, saying that the Prime Minister will not be apologising for falsely claiming that the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, while Director of Public Prosecutions, failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile for sexual assault. That was after protests yesterday surrounding Sir Keir Starmer and also David Lammy, as Kim Ledbetter mentioned. And they surrounded him and were heard to be saying, some of those protesters, that he was a paedophile protector. A message just coming in here saying, can we, Annie, excuse me, has messaged in to say,

Kim is the right type of MP and indeed a leader that we need, honest and full of empathy at a hugely difficult time. Well, talking of difficult times, I cannot tell you how many messages have been coming in in response to my question about screaming. Have you ever felt like you wanted to scream from the top of your lungs? Dee says, I've been screaming for decades, ever since a therapist suggested it when I had a severe bout of depression in my early 30s. My favourite places to scream are in the car or on the beach at a stormy sea and into a strong wind. Brilliant. There's an anonymous message here, and I'll remind you why I've asked you this, which is just brilliant, saying, I take a baking tray outside and I smash it repeatedly against the brick wall side of my house. It's extremely satisfying and I've wrecked two baking trays up to now. Picture that.

If you do like screaming or, I don't know, smashing up baking trays, you'll be in good company. Last month, a group of mothers from Massachusetts in America decided to get all of their pandemic frustrations off their chest, literally by shouting in a group in the middle of a football field, and it's inspired other women around America to do the same. What about this craze then coming to the UK on a more mass level? Behaviour and data scientist Professor Pragya Agarwal decided to start screaming with her daughters during lockdown, and the psychology lecturer Dr Rebecca Semens-Wheeler is also on hand to give her take on this. Pragya, I'll start with you. Good morning.

Morning, Emma. Why do you scream? I think I'll start with you. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Why do you scream? I think a few reasons. Obviously, it's good for health. We know from research that it releases endorphins and it can make us feel stronger like tennis players. When they grunt and scream, they actually have more strength in their shots. But when I started doing this, I was researching and writing for my next book, which is called Hysterical. And I was increasingly getting angry about the historic and the scientific research that showed these expectations that are placed on women, that we have to be nice and we have to be sweet and we are not told how to channel this anger and fury and rage. And these are considered negative emotions. And I didn't want my children, I have twin girls, they were three at the time when we started the pandemic. I didn't want them to grow up with these kind of gendered expectations and stereotypes that they can't scream, that they have to suppress all the emotions. I wanted to show them that all

emotions are healthy and that we can actually release them in a way that feels good for us. Where do you do it? Do you go somewhere? Are you in the house? Is anyone nearby? During the lockdown, we were just doing it inside the house or we would sit in the car sometimes and scream quite loud or we would run around the garden and scream. Sometimes we would run up and down the stairs and they would usually take their old clothes off and scream while I just ran around with them. And then we would flop on the floor laughing and it really helped us bond as well. But sometimes we would stand in warrior pose in the middle of the room and raise our arms up to the ceiling as if to the sky and showing that we

are releasing all the stress from our bodies and we're going to scream as loud as if to the sky and showing that we are releasing all the stress from our bodies and we're going to scream as loud as we can. Nice. A bit of naked screaming and warrior pose screaming. Do you live with anyone else? Do you have a partner? Yes, my husband. I think he used to go and hide sometimes. He wasn't joining in? My dog and my cat were really scared and terrified. But they have to get used to it, you know, of women screaming. Pragya, let me bring in Rebecca at this point. It is undoubtedly a release. What do you make of it, though, as a strategy for releasing

and as a way of coping? I have to say that Pragya's description of screaming just sounds really fun. I'm quite tempted to try it myself. And yeah, maybe I'll be a convert. But yeah, I mean, as you said, Pragya, it does help to release emotions. You know, Yano came up with this primal therapy in the 70s. It was primarily designed to help people who'd suffered or experienced childhood trauma um so I think you know as you said you know women definitely this perception of screaming I love the title

of your book by the way hysterical because we're kind of mild we're tarnished by that really you know about not being able to express emotion I think that's really really important however if we are using it just to release repressed emotions that we kind of do lack a bit of and I'm sure you're aware of this you know lack a bit of subtlety and nuance so I was kind of maybe liking that to you know blowing open our emotions with dynamite so there's the kind of need to pick through that and unpack and explore what those underlying issues are so what's causing the frustration or the depression um you know what you know there might be a whole range of sort of structural issues or personal individual issues that lead us to feel like we don't feel strong that we do need

to have that endorphin release and obviously it's not the only way of releasing endorphins so there's quite a few things you know there's a few different levels there's obviously the social level of of bonding and also with those gendered expectations. Then there's the biological level, which you've already touched on as well, you know, endorphins and the bonding, you know, a sense of common humanity. So Kirsten Neff, she's this great researcher on self-compassion, talks about the three levels of, you know, kindness, care and understanding to ourselves, sense of common humanity. And I think when women get together or people get together

and scream we have this sense that we're not alone we're not doing it by ourselves but then the third component of self-compassion is mindfulness so it's bringing that awareness to you know what's happening in the body and you know warrior pose so i'm a yoga teacher as well so yeah really you know warrior place helping us to unify the mind and bodies of balancing those things yeah and i mean i think what you're saying there is perhaps you need to be looking at why you're needing to scream and and what is the best way to to help yourself and for some it may be a mixture of those things for some it may be better to do to do others but i wonder what why is it that women want to perhaps get together and scream not all women but some women are finding this uh appealing and and not all women but some women are finding

this uh appealing and and you know of course others will be thinking this is completely not for me and also i don't want to look like the hysterical woman but do men want to scream as well rebecca i haven't really seen much research on on this but i think that men i mean let's i'm just going to go with a stereotype i know that all football fans aren't men but men have these kind of rituals of going to things like football matches and I'm really aware that they're not all men do this but it does tend to be that men have these kind of you know my partner goes to like the boys curry club I don't think they scream in the restaurants but you know they go and they have the you know delicious food together and and they have this bonding and I think women do I think you know there's there are circumstances but my my colleague um Dr Keely Abbott she's she's a gender expert and she was talking about how women don't have as many

of these um opportunities to do these bonding rituals together these rituals where there are sort of more communities and I think that's especially been difficult during lockdown and again not to kind of over generalise here but I think women you know and I'm not a parent but my through some of the work I do and just knowing women who've been parents that has been particularly isolating particularly for many women during during the pandemic. So I'm not surprised that there's a kind of need for reclamation of this bonding experience, that sense of getting together in common humanity. And women do tend to get together to connect around emotional expression,

I think, more than men in general. I would say that that is a kind of a gendered trait. And again, not to kind of generalise, that that would be a trend among women more so I don't know of any research on that no well it it would be fascinating Pragya you I think you'll find some of these messages uh amazing as I am as well just just so honest and so brilliant instead of screaming I've got a message here that says I fling bottles and jars as hard as possible into the bottle bank. Smash works for me. Another one, I scream when I'm driving. If anyone hears, I just don't care.

There's quite a lot of people doing this on their own, Pragya, not needing to be with others, although that's also part of it. Yeah, I think so. I think the release of emotions and be able to have a safe space, a non-judgmental space where you can just let go of all the rage. We talk about not being able to talk about the motherhood rage and all the anxiety and all the stress that you're carrying. And again, we're coming back on the gendered stereotypes again and again about how women, men can, from a very young age, boys are socialized to be wild and to scream and to be loud, while girls are taught to be quiet and to be nice and to not raise their voices. And yes, things are changing, but I think still those expectations are placed on women quite a lot.

And so just to have a safe space where you don't feel judged for raising your voice, for showing your frustration, for not being labelled hysterical. I like that, if I may, I like that the car's coming up again and again. But I do think in your own home, you know, if your home is a safe space, if you're happy with who you're living with, but you still need to vent. I think there is. And if you are living with a man, there can be that judgment still, you know, even if it is your home because of the idea of the crazy lady. I mean, I just, I just watched Wuthering Heights at the National Theatre in London last night. And there's a lot of screaming in that. And, you know, even watching that, you think, I wonder how some of the men

will be interpreting this well-known, you know, this interpretation of a well-known story and the women in it. Will they be able to access the pain or they're going to be distracted by the idea that, you know, these women are hysterical and not to be not to be trusted as full characters? Yeah, we see that these stereotypes play out in art and literature all the time. The women's nerves are really frail or fragile. And as we keep coming back to the whole trope of stereotype of hysterical. Yes, I mean, I think there is judgment, especially as I was going through perimenopause, I realized that I was getting really angry. And I was constantly hearing you're being very angry these days. And I think it's just that suddenly, not meaning to impose these stereotypes, people do that. People do impose these expectations that you

have to stay calm. And I'm not saying that screaming is a solution to everything, to all the emotional stress or anxiety or trauma that you might be carrying. And there are structural and systemic issues as well. But I think to be able to reclaim that narrative is really, really important. To be able to express our anger, not just a sadness, because we know from research that women often express it as sadness because it's a low status emotion, and they're not able to express it as anger because it's a high status emotion,

and that's accorded to men in our society. So to be able to reclaim that narrative, I think is really, really important, besides the biological and emotional aspects. While you're speaking to the converted, I'm presently in a huge amount of pain with endometriosis and I want to scream. We're not going to do it right now. I think I think we have to do it when it feels like we're in the moment. Maybe we'll do it another time and maybe I'll maybe I'll burst the volume levels here at the microphone. But I think, you know, being in pain, a life in pain, you just want to scream in in frustration or something don't you just just let it let it out let it all out thank you so much for

for being so uh generous with your honesty I expect nothing less the book actually that you were talking about hysterical exploding the myth of gendered emotions by professor Pragya Agarwal and Dr Rebecca Simmons-Wheeler thank you so much for your insight and and actually I love this from Mary who who says, shouting at the radio makes me feel better. I hope you're shouting at me occasionally. I'd take that as a compliment, or not. Gillian says, I realised years ago while having singing lessons

that reaching for some top notes is really a controlled scream. Now I'm 75, I still do it every week at choir practice. Some of you are getting in touch very much to say, singing is another way of getting that same feeling. Kathy says, in my childhood, we had a coal fire. I used to get rid of my frustrations by going out to fill the coal bucket. As an adult with central heating,

I changed the duvet cover. Both tasks are exhausting. No anger left afterwards. That's a good change you're doing of that duvet cover. Sophie says, during lockdown and even over this winter, I would go and scream in the fields behind our house along with a vixen, assuming a fox here, who lives in the quarry. It's been a visceral and powerful release. We need to howl and scream. It's primal and euphoric. Hannah is one of those living with a screamer. My former housemate used to scream a lot while we were all working at home during lockdown.

The sound made me really tense and more stressed. I find that a few deep, slow, calming breaths is much more effective for releasing tension and relaxing your body. Well, listening to somebody else scream, I can totally understand, may stress you out and have the opposite effect. But I've just got this brilliant vision of so many of you

screaming in cars, banging baking trays, trays going out banging your duvet cover how you let it out let me know do you keep those messages coming in and mark just final one for this part but I will come back to the messages if I can says I've actually screamed under that very bridge from the cabaret film that clip we played out right at the start of the program back in the early 90s with a Berlin friend it was a great experience and I for for one, find a good scream or roar, usually discreetly done, I don't know how you do that, really helpful to my mental health when things get too much, a discreet roar.

And Belinda's swearing by boxing during her divorce, but screaming, she says, sounds fun. Well, I did mention health and how you get through things. Let's look at the state of part of our health or what's not going on at the moment that perhaps should. New analysis commissioned by the Labour Party says that almost 300,000 people in England were unable to see a cancer specialist within two weeks of an urgent referral between April and November last year. The research, which used information from the House of Commons Library, found that more than 90,000 of those

breaches for those who may have breast cancer. It's the highest number of breaches in the 11 years since the target was introduced. And as the Prime Minister promises new targets to tackle the NHS backlog, let's talk now to Baroness Deleth Morgan, Chief Executive of Breast Cancer Now. More than 90,000 waiting for referrals.

What do those waiting times mean for the women involved? I think we have to remember that each one of those in that 90 odd thousand, that's an individual, that's a woman really worrying, potentially very anxious, potentially with a breast lump, potentially with nipple discharge or skin puckering, symptoms that they're really worried about. And we know that the most important thing to tackle cancer in this country has got to be about early diagnosis. And during the pandemic, you know, the screening programme was paused in many parts of the country. And we saw a really significant drop in the number of women diagnosed with breast cancer.

So that means that the chance for them to get the best possible treatment and have the best possible outcomes is limited. So I feel very concerned about this. And, you know, I just want to really encourage everyone who's worried about that they might have breast cancer to come forward and seek help. Because, sorry, just with a referral, do you know something is wrong or you don't know anything at all at that point? No, well, there are so many different aspects to going to see the doctor with a worry about breast cancer. It might be that you have found a lump or you've got breast pain.

Breast pain is very rarely turns out to be cancer. But what it means is that you've identified that there's something wrong and you need to have it checked out. And your GP would normally refer you on. And depending on their assessment of your concerns, they may refer you urgently to be seen within two weeks. And that is something that is really important part of the breast cancer strategy in this country to get women seen as quickly as possible. And of course, we have a screening programme, which, again, is a really essential part of called for screening, that they take up that appointment because at the moment they're just being sent out open invitations, say do ring us and set up an appointment. People are busy. They may not get around to setting up that appointment. And it's really valuable. So I'm just so I'm looking at this. If I can, I'm just looking at the statement from the Department of Health and Social Care about this.

Talking about cancer diagnosis and treatment remains a top priority. The pandemic's put enormous pressure on the NHS, causing waiting lists to grow. But most cancer services are back or above pre-pandemic levels. What do you make of that? Well, firstly, I don't think it's good enough to be at the pre-pandemic level because, you know, we've been failing to meet breast cancer targets for years. So we need to have a really significant investment in the breast cancer, the cancer workforce. And we've been calling for this for years. And so that's why this initiative that Sajid Javid kicked off at a round table on Friday, I think is really valuable. We need to

have that long term commitment to the workforce to make sure that these backlogs and we are talking about backlog, even if the NHS is actually seeing, you know, more people, there's still, we estimate about 9,000 breast cancer diagnoses that have yet to be made up so you know that there are real worries about how the system can cope you know I would say and I do want to say this that we are so you know we absolutely have to thank the all the the health care professionals working in the NHS under massive pressure there just aren't enough of them do, I mean, I was just going to say, no, no, please don't apologise, but it was just also the other part of this statement

and people may remember this, that Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, Health and Social Care Secretary, has declared a national war on cancer. What do you make of that? Well, you know, it's not a surprise to me that cancer and cancer targets and the backlog and the, you know, those waiting for diagnosis would become a focus in the current political debate. I suppose what I'm interested in is how can we make the most of the opportunity of having these big political beasts interested in trying to crack the problem.

Of course, but there are those who have lived through cancer, who are related to those who perhaps didn't. And they loathe the, this is my battle. They loathe the language of war, you know, and you're the chief executive of breast cancer now. Is it helpful to have a health and social care secretary saying, I've declared war on cancer? You may say

it's semantics it's just it is something that's caught people's ear no absolutely and I think um you know a lot of people would never use the language of the battlefield to talk about the experience of cancer um you know when people say so and so lost their battle with cancer it breaks my heart because you know know, if you could fight your way out of it, who wouldn't? You know, it's not like that. So, yeah, I mean, a war on cancer is a phrase to grab attention. But what I'm interested in, you know, is what can we get into the system? Can we get a long-term plan with investment for the workforce? You know, where's the recovery plan?

That was meant to come out yesterday. You know, the government promised that we would have caught up all the backlog by March 22. Now it's being said that's going to be March 23. There is real urgency to tackle this, and it's got to be through the workforce. There aren't any easy answers. Everyone's working flat out. We've got a quarter of radiologists, a vital part of the diagnostic workforce, a quarter of radiologists are retiring in the next five years.

Where's the solution to that? It's got to be a long term funded solution to the workforce. And if you're running an NHS hospital or, you know, a service, a screening service, if you don't know how you're going to pay for the workforce growth that is needed, how are you going to manage? We've got to have more certainty about how the workforce is going to be funded. Well, indeed, reports about a row between the Treasury and Number 10 and the Treasury and NHS England. This is perhaps what's been described as the reason for the delay to that plan that you mentioned that we don't yet have. Going from the macro to the kind of day-to-day, the individual level, if you are listening, if you're a woman listening, perhaps you are concerned about something specifically, we've been talking about breast cancer about a lump or anything that seems a bit unusual we can never say it too many times what should you do?

The most important thing is to be mindful of the fact that most breast lumps turn out not to be cancer so please feel reassured that there's a good chance that everything's fine, but do seek help. Go and see your GP, or if you're invited for screening, I would say attend that screening appointment and get yourself checked out. Be breast aware. And, you know, and remember that, you know, where breast cancer is diagnosed early, the outcome can be really positive. You know, it is a very, very, very good prognosis. But it's so important to get checked out and to seek help. And if you're worried about anything, if you've got breast cancer already or if you've got incurable breast cancer and you need support, then do please get in touch with Breast Cancer Now.

We've got a helpline staffed by nurses and there's all that support there for you. Frank's email says, the husband of a breast cancer patient, I must emphasise it's also not just the timing of the initial referral that's crucial, but the waiting periods for every step in the process. Each period presents an agony of fear and slowly erodes the mental health for the whole family. Just giving an insight there from someone supporting someone going through this at the moment we are talking about how you vent how you release are you a screamer Baroness Daleth Morgan well I'm a singer actually and I was listening to that um that discussion that you just had I thought it was brilliant because it does release that you know those endorphins and you know last night I went to my choir practice for the first time in ages.

And, you know, I've lost the strength in my voice through the pandemic because I haven't been practicing. But it's just so amazing to be able to sing and enjoy that and to share it. As you say, I go with my sister who has secondary breast cancer and her breast cancer is incurable. And it's one of the things that we do together and it's just amazing so I would recommend shouting singing anything that gets you out there all of the above I love the smile that's swept across your face as I asked are you a screamer but singer came out instead which I have to say is a trend as well with lots of the messages we're getting this morning Baroness Deleth Morgan chief executive Executive of Breast Cancer Now. Thank you. Janet says on email,

I so agree women are always told to be calm and quiet. The biggest example is how we're told to give birth quietly with little breaths of control. Why? When in pain, it is normal to scream.

So why has the whole of birthing been taken over by this idea from her point of view? I didn't stay quiet. I screamed the whole way through both of my children's births when I needed to and wanted to. And Natasha in Eastbourne says, I've been screaming in my car at lunchtime when work was so stressful.

I always thought they should build a screaming soundproof booth at work. You know, there's these rage rooms. Have any of you been to those? I don't quite know what you do in them, but they sound very appealing. I need to check them out. Apparently, that's more of a trend as well. Going into somewhere and being pretty angry and being able to smash the place up without having to tidy up. Key point. Very key point indeed. Keep those messages coming in. Let's turn our attention now to the number of children in the care system which is at an all-time high according to the Department for Education. There are 80,000 children in care in England alone. But we're going to look now at the law around siblings

and what's actually going on for those in care and being split from those that they have known as their family and sometimes are their only support. The law says that siblings in care should stay together if it's safe and appropriate to do so, but almost half of children in care are not living with at least one of their siblings. A new BBC documentary called Split Up in Care, Life Without Siblings, explores this issue.

It's on iPlayer now. And I can talk to Rachel Mustsey-Kiwa, who's a ambassador for the charity Action for Children, and Keela Brinkley, who mentors young girls in the care system. And both Rachel and Keela were separated from their respective siblings in care. A warm welcome to you both. Rachel, I thought I'd start with you and understand your experience in care. What can you tell us a bit about that and how old you were when you were first separated from your siblings? Hi, yeah, so I got separated from my siblings when I was about 11 or so. We'd actually moved into foster care and together

um into our first foster home but then after like two years or so we actually got separated which I'm not too sure on the fine line details of why we got separated but I ended up moving to another foster carer and my siblings ended up moving somewhere else but I believe they were going to be part of adoption but because I was older um you know older children aren't really like wanted to be adopted but my siblings were much younger so they were wanted to be part of adoption but because I was older um you know older children aren't really like wanted to be adopted but my siblings were much younger so they were wanted to be adopted and stuff like that and what was that like being apart from them it was it was a horrifying experience I can't lie especially going into foster care you're with strangers you're not used to the experience you don't know what's going on but then being with

my siblings at first was fine because it was able to like I was able to tolerate it especially being a black kid um I've grown up with my siblings like being like a mother to them and it's part of our culture type thing um so it was quite strange not being able to have that bond with my siblings or be able to be there for them make sure they're okay so I just spent most of my foster care experience when I separated from them just worrying about them constantly and not being able to actually live my life because I was constantly worried about them. Were you able to have contact or was it some time until you were able to be together again? It actually took a lot to actually get that contact. I was fighting to see them for years and years until Action for Children ch chipped in and started advocating on my behalf going into my meetings I had to like protest constantly to be

able to see my siblings it kept being like pictures and videos but I was like that's not enough especially with family and the fact that I was by myself my parents are together my siblings are together I wanted to physically see them and make sure they're physically okay but it took years to actually get that in place and how's the relationship now now we're just sort of working on it it's a it's a working experience um I actually talk to my siblings now um I actually see my sister and my brother more often um my other sister did get unfortunately put for put up for adoption so I'm not going to see her until she probably turned 18 at some point but I am building a good strong relationship with my siblings currently. Thank you so much for that let me bring in Keela at this point good morning. Good morning. How old were you when when you and your sibling were separated? So me and my sister were separated about the age of 10, 11 after being in care together. Yeah, there's only 18 months between me and

my sister. But when we separated, I went to a solo placement, a specialised placement and my sister went to a mixed parent placement and that's what she'd requested but it was hard we had regular contact and so you were able to keep in contact yeah and I think um I think that's the importance as well when siblings are split up it's about remaining contact and giving children a full explanation and clear explanation as to why the split has happened I think because that's as children you start to question yourself and your own behavior I understand you you actually at first would would make sure you could see each other by running away running away to be together yeah that's what we used to do at one stage because local authorities like to say, oh, well, you know, we'll hold contact off for a while,

let them settle in their placement. It doesn't work, you know. So we used to run away and be with each other. And I think after a while it just got too much and they realised it's better for us to have the contact than to stop it. Do you think it had, or what rather, I'm sure it did have, impact did it have not being with her though as much as you had been?

So not being, not living together? It was difficult. I think as children, obviously it's difficult because you've now took away that one last thing that we held on to. You know, you took away our parents parents now you've took away our siblings and that's how it looks um as you grow older I think your view changes that little bit because now that I'm older I can see that we both had different needs and has it has I mean I was going to say because some may may with experience of this on either side, may say sometimes splitting siblings can actually be better.

It can have a better outcome sometimes. And for me and my sister, I think at the time, obviously it wasn't great. We both were bound, we was both kicking off, you know, it caused a lot of issues. But now coming away from it, I can understand why we were split. We was breaking down placements together.

We were unfrustrable together because we would just break everything down and we didn't have our own identity. We both lived in each other's footsteps. When we were split, we were able to find our own identity. We were both able to get the support that we needed individually. And I think now it benefited us and I feel like that's what's made our relationship now very positive. I think living together,

we could have broke up a lot of the relationships that we've got now. And just so I'm clear, when you say you broke up the placements, what would that mean? Me and her would just break down placements. We wouldn't settle. Right. And not be able to get on with whom you'd been put with and were trying to look after you.

Yeah, basically, because it was just, I think, I don't know, it was a bit of guilt. Both of us would be like, don't listen to think I don't know it was a bit of guilt both of us would be like don't don't listen to her don't do this don't do that and we'd stick in force with each other you know the foster carer couldn't tell off her without me stepping in you know there would be no um no punishments they couldn't do it because one of us would kick off because the other one couldn't do something and it just wouldn't work off because the other one couldn't do something. And it just wouldn't work.

Rachel, to bring you back in on this, you know, and as an ambassador now for the charity Action for Children, I suppose there's a different insight there as well, isn't it, about how it can be better even if you can't see it at the time. What do you make of that? Oh, I fully understand that. I've seen a lot of different placements where I'm like, yeah, that probably did need that separation. From my personal experience, I feel like now I'm starting to speak to my sister more and we're more like communicating about how she felt during the time. I realised that maybe it wasn't the best thing for us personally, because we really did need each other's support. We were really just like being siblings and it was completely out of our nature to be separated in our circumstances but obviously I've not really fully read my paperwork and stuff like that so there's probably things I don't know because when you've got a child's mind you see

everything under like a rose colored glasses so but I do understand the concept of like some some children do need that separation to be able to grow separately and then meet back together at the end. Had you asked me this many years ago, I would have been like, no, it's the worst thing they could have ever done. You know, how dare they separate us? But I think now that I'm older and I've got a child and I've looked back at my paperwork and I've read things and I thought, you know, actually, that was the best thing that could have happened for us. I love that that's, you know, that's changed in you and that you can say that as well, you know,

that you can get a different perspective. Yeah, and I think working now with children in care as well has helped me open my eyes to see things differently. But I suppose also, Rachel, from your point of view, that, you know, your siblings were your family, they were your constant. And I read in your conversations that you had with one of our producers that you you know you said you'd also been like a parent to them yeah I'd grown up being like a mother figure to my siblings which I can understand from that perspective if I was

separated then I could grow separately to my siblings but I just feel like for me it put me in a bad depression it put me in a bad depression it put me in a bad anxiety I felt really lonely I just felt really isolated like it took a lot for me to be able to come out of that depression like my foster care support and like social services support to actually get me out of that depression and actually carry on with my life was a lot considering I could have just stayed with them and just blossomed and been like counselled in order to grow as a single sister rather than a mother figure. Thank you so much.

Sorry, final word, Keela, go on. I think that's what it takes. I think when you're separating siblings, things need to be put in place like therapy and counselling. Yeah. And, you know, the relationship should be as if there's a extended family not that they're split they should be foster care should be encouraged to encourage the young people to come over and have dinner and you know it should just be like they're with an auntie and

uncle and you can still meet on Christmas and stuff like that and I think it needs to be done properly. Keela, Rachel thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you so much. Thank you. And reflecting on those experiences many more messages still coming in in light of that conversation but also still so many about how you vent how you you get out that stress I mean therapy was just mentioned there of course in a in a very much a different setting and how to deal with something extremely serious but I suppose some of you when you when you're just dealing with the day-to-day, how you deal with that, I think this sounds a bit like it could be in the sketch of my next two guests.

Jane's emailed to say, I seldom have the opportunity to scream as often as I'd like. I've been asking you if that's what you do, to vent. But I found that dropping an unwanted ceramic gift onto the patio is a good alternative. The only downside is the cleaning up well what do my next guests Freya Parker and Celestrin make of that they are known as the comedy duo Lazy Susan and you may have seen their show which is brand new on BBC3 just been debuted good morning hi hello good morning I'm I would love to smash some ornaments. I'm also fascinated by these rage rooms.

Me too. Incredible idea. I'm laughing, but also like, I am going to Google that. Yeah, I've been meaning to. You know, annoyingly, I've probably been so frustrated or concerned about something, I've not had the time to actually look up the rage room. But hopefully you could take that for us.

Maybe you can work that into something. Love to love to I've been watching I've watched quite a bit of your work and it's definitely raised many a wry smile as well as you know out out loud laughter but the the phone line of abuse just as also returning to our first conversation about being an MP at the beginning of the program today you've tell us tell our listeners a bit about that and what what was the inspiration for that well it was a sketch that got written very near to filming so I think there were some uh nerves or uh there was some fear starting to arise as we got closer closer to actually making the show um and yeah it's called sketch hotline and it's like an 80s infomercial but it's it's really about the line our line has just gone and tell us you hate them personally and it's us just in a very do you know what i'm gonna do i'm gonna do a bit of production here perhaps we might have to turn off your video to improve the the connection and then we we can

keep going so the irony was i was asking you about a phone line and your line destroyed itself um say that again so it was like an 80s 80s setting go for it yeah it looks like an 80s infomercial but it's basically us breaking the fourth wall or whatever you call that in tv and saying look if you hate us and you hate the show and you want to tell us that don't tweet us don't get us on instagram ring this hotline and you can tell us personally and then it's us just being very friendly and professional answering all these horrible calls basically incredibly professional yeah thank you yeah thank you um how do you how do you come up with the sketches Freya or Celeste whoever wants to to take the lead because we

haven't actually I hadn't thought about this but we haven't really seen that many sketch shows lately in the UK yeah I think it's always all sorts it can be sort of you know pure imagination it can be me and Celeste just observing each other in quite a creepy way and then being like, I've got an idea for a character and I'm always like, oh, that sort of seems like me, but she's called Sarah. Okay. Okay. Or just, you know, you see- Yeah, I always change the name. I'm very clever. Yeah, yeah. She's sneaky like that. Sneaky. Or, you know, you walk down the street, as you all do,

you hear someone walking past having a conversation, it's a funny turn of phrase. Or like the sketch hotline thing, it's just either seeing the abuse that people get online or some of it that we've had ourselves and thinking, like, we want to talk about that. But how do we do it in a way that's not a lecture? Yeah.

A lot of my stuff, it's just basically fear really packaged as a sketch um but you know I think it's it's hard to know where the ideas come from but when when when you start having one you just become aware does this have legs or does what is this skewering what is this joke and does it have enough in it to sustain a two minute skip because sometimes you hear something you see something that's funny but it doesn't always translate into a sketch so it's it becomes about identifying what's got legs and what what doesn't how are you managing the you know trying not to fall into you know what some people will say the tropes of what female comedians cover. I don't know. The thing about even that sort of phrase female comedian, I think obviously.

Female comedian. I didn't call you that. I was very deliberate. You didn't. I think there's always that adage like write what you know. Obviously, I lived this experience where we're two women. So I think that that is always going to be in the fabric of the work that you make. But I think I think rarely do people sit down and think, what what what female comedy am I going to make today? No, but we are hearing more and more comedians talk about the fact they're thinking about what they can say, what they can't say, what's their right to say. I suppose it feeds into that wider discussion and I didn't know if any way do you feel you can fully write freely pretty much I think yeah I actually think

we we never really feel any limitations on what we can on what we can write and I think it's more I mean going back to the sort of the female kind of female comedy or female lens often that stuff is put on say you're writing tv it's after the after the work is done and then people will either look at it when they're starting to package it to sell it or pitch it and they'll say like oh it's a female driven show about female friendships and it's just women now zeitgeist and it's all all these sort of words start being put upon your work but it but I think it never actually I don't think it ever sort of I don't feel any any limitations I think in terms of what you're

asking about what do we think about when we're writing are we worried about what can we say what can't we say I think the only worry we have is is it funny or not and I think you know I don't know whether you're touching on cancel culture or if this is about being women because I think with the women's stuff you just have to do what's funny and accept that you're going to get a certain amount of abuse for being a woman in comedy that is part of the territory and it's not good but you have to learn to deal with it and live with it and protect yourself and a lot of our colleagues it's very very common um for people to be online release something get so much abuse that they then go offline yeah like we wanted to you know I was looking for somebody online the other day and

then I messaged and being like oh you're not on social media and then she was like oh no no I came off it after I did like a little bit on something and then got so much so much abuse that I came off it just to protect myself my mental health and all the rest of it so it's it is like a strange part of of being a woman in comedy now that that comes part and parcel there is a bit of not fear about the material but more the response yeah I think you should start that for that phone line I would ring it just just to listen in uh it'd be a great radio station in and of itself yeah Yeah, wouldn't it? Yeah. It'd have to go out late at night. Well, you could ring up

and have a good scream. Yeah, well, that was good to say. I think, you know, future sketches, rage rooms, screams. I hope we've given you some material. Yeah, 100%.

Well, Lazy Susan is the name to collectively describe Freya Parker and Celestrin. Thank you so much. I adore this message from Kate. Just wanted to end with this. He says I'm a 60 plus lady, runs her own business and as well as being a farmer's wife

stress goes with the territory. My method of dealing with this has been to calmly pick up a metal bucket, take myself to a place away from everyone else, kick the bucket around the yard while screaming. I then pick up the bucket, I calmly return to the situation. And it's certainly

better than breaking bottles of milk, which needs cleaning, a lot of cleaning afterwards. Kate, thank you so much for that message. Absolutely adore it. Great mental images, the baking tray against the wall, the bucket around the yard. You're brilliant. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.