Woman's Hour - Gunner Jaysley Beck’s mother, Organist Anna Lapwood, Menopause tribunal, Mary McAleese, Grace Dent

Episode Date: October 7, 2023

Female teenage soldier Jaysley Beck is believed to have taken her own life after a period of relentless sexual harassment from one of her bosses, an Army investigation has found. Gunner Beck was serving in the Royal Artillery and was found dead at Larkhill Camp in Wiltshire in December 2021. Her mother, Leighann McCready, speaks to Emma Barnett.Nicknamed 'the Taylor Swift of classical music', Anna Lapwood is one of the world's most famous organists, and Director of Music at Pembroke College, Cambridge. To encourage more women to try the instrument, Anna initiated the social media hashtag #playlikeagirl. She joins Emma to talk about her music and her new album, Luna.We hear from Karen Farquharson who has been awarded £37,000 at an employment tribunal after her boss told her she used the menopause as an “excuse for everything”. She tells Emma how the process has impacted her and why she wants to help other women.This week marked the start of a Catholic synod that will take place throughout October in the Vatican to discuss the direction of the Catholic Church. Emma talks to former Irish president Mary McAleese about why she thinks women should play a bigger role. And the food writer Grace Dent joins Anita Rani to talk about her new book, Comfort Eating, inspired by her podcast of the same name. She'll explain why she's so fascinated by the foods that make us feel better behind closed doors.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. A very good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is the programme each Saturday where we gather together the best interviews from the week and pop them all in one place for you to listen to. Easy as that. Coming up this afternoon. That director interrupted and said,

menopause, menopause, everybody gets the menopause. You just have to deal with it. That's your excuse for everything. But it was full of swear words as well. Karen Farkerson on successfully suing her former employer for unfair dismissal and harassment. Plus, a global meeting of Catholic church representatives is underway. We'll hear from former Irish President Mary McAleese

on why she thinks women should play more of a role. And have you ever been into a cathedral in the middle of the night? You tend to get given a key and you just are in there completely by yourself and it's a little bit spooky, the lights are all off. But you feel like you're sort of seeing a totally different side to these iconic buildings, Westminster Abbey, places like that. We hear why our guest Anna Lapwood spends so much time in buildings after hours. But first, just a couple of days ago, the tragic story of Jaisley Beck hit our headlines. Jaisley was a 19-year-old female soldier believed to have

taken her own life after relentless sexual harassment by one of her bosses. That's according to an army investigation. Jaisley was found dead at Larkhill Camp in Wiltshire in December 2021. There's going to be an inquest but the Army report describes an intense period of unwelcome behaviour and said it's almost certain this was a causal factor in her death. Jaisley's mother, Leanne McCready, joined Emma and told her what it had been like when the story hit the headlines. For me personally, it's been overwhelming and in some ways positive. It's reaching out to so many other female soldiers that have been in contact on the back of the headlines and being over the media. The fact that people are engaging with the message that's being sent across, it gives us comfort it gives us comfort that people are able

now to reach out um i'm overwhelmed i'm over absolutely overwhelmed by the response but a good response i think in general yes and i hope to hear that and and it's good that you feel that there's some strength from that as well with the support. A lot of people are struck by many things to do with your daughter and her story. But she was very young, wasn't she, when she joined up? She was very young. She was 16 when she joined the military. As a Royal Artillery gunner. Yes. Is that something she'd always wanted to do?

No, it was very out of the blue. That came from a career's day at school. Okay. And then the road was suddenly set and off she went. Yes. Yes, she was on a mission and she was on a mission to join. Was she excited? Extremely excited, yes, yes. And how did you feel as her mum? Which mum wants to know that the princess is going to be a soldier? It came as a shock. However, fully supportive of Jaisley's career choice.

As a mum, you kind of, you want them home forever. Well, I certainly do. But no, we supported her. We supported her choices. And it started well? It did extremely well. Yes, extremely well. She was in constant contact um with us you could tell how how happy

she was how much she was striving um in the army it had its challenges um absolutely there were challenges along the way it wasn't smooth sailing it was a lot of hard work and um dedication on on jay's list side and her colleague's side but no started off extremely well when were you aware something wasn't okay um initially um she contacted us to say that an assault had been taken place. A sexual assault had been taken place. She alleged a sexual assault had been taken place and told you about it? Yes, yes. There's some details that have come out into what has happened with your daughter and how her situation was handled. An inquest, I should say, to officially determine how she died is still to be carried out.

But the military inquiry identified two causal factors and other contributory factors and mentioned the death of her uncle and other family issues. I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to that and how you felt that that was included in the report, those details of the family. We did have a bereavement in the family. And like any other family, it affects. You know, it's not something you forget when you've got such a close member of the family that has passed.

And again, like any other family, we were grieving, but also a very strong, supportive family. Yes. And the report going on to some of what you were starting to talk about there said that your daughter, Jaisleyley was the recipient of persistent unwelcome attention and behavior over a period of approximately two months preceding her death um and and that that you know what it sort of describes or that picture that it gives is you know just an overwhelming sense of of attention and harassment yes yes um again she she brought that to to our attention um jaysley um not just only with myself but the the wider family um is open is able to have open discussions and brought everything to our attention so we we was fully aware of the messages that she was receiving and the unwanted attention that she was receiving.

Did she show you any of these messages? Yes, yes. It was only four days prior to her passing that she opened up a chat with myself, my partner and my eldest daughter, Emily. And every message that she was receiving four days prior, she was passing on to us. We were able to see the messages that she was receiving. What was your response to that? As a parent you're in a very difficult position because you just want to go pick them up from

work but unfortunately within the military it doesn't work like that and we could only advise on our side offer reassurance and offer support and try to encourage um for our daughter to um to report this however the response from jay's law was i don't want to be known as a troublemaker. I don't want to be branded as a female troublemaker mum. So that's what she said to you about that? Yes. that she was receiving more than 1,000 WhatsApp messages and voicemails, increasing to 3,500 the following month. And some messages were said to be controlling in their nature. Yes. I mean, it was an extraordinary amount.

It was an extraordinary amount. And not only was the messages coming through, she wanted to, in a polite way say you know stop um she did try she did try again in the most politest way possible and to the back end she got more um more direct more blunt towards him but not only was it about the messages, it was also about his unwanted behaviour, the jealousy that he showed when she was with other colleagues. He didn't like mixing with other males. To the point he'd walk out of rooms, he would leave rooms when she was in um talk with other colleagues

to the point that to the very back end the other the other colleagues um surrounding jaisley within her team um noticed his behavior behavior also what was your your last conversation like or your last exchange with your daughter? The last exchange with Jase was on the, it was late night on the 14th when she was enjoying a time with her friends as she was sending us videos which she always did we we knew her every movement because she kept us updated as did we um we kept jaisley updated on our side and what we were doing on throughout the day and this was every day this was an um what we did within our family we we had a group family whatsapp and yeah many many people do they'll be able to relate to that so yeah she was having lots of fun it was christmas period and she was having fun And then, of course, you received the news.

Yes, it was myself and my eldest daughter that had concerns on the morning of the 15th when I tried to speak to Jaisla. Granted, it was a little bit early in the morning and I had to bear in mind that she had been celebrating Christmas because they were due to all break up and go on home leave. So I'm mindful of the time and as I tried contacting her later on during the day still no response um I did become extremely worried I'm very very sorry for you for your loss and for your family um as you describe it you know she was so excited to be there making a career having her friends and yet I don't know if you've been aware of some of these headlines I'm sure you have been but you've also been you, trying to grieve and dealing with your own loss. But there are concerns about the military and women in particular. There have been reports about that.

If you could say something to the Defence Secretary, to Grant Shapps and to those who are in charge, the top brass of the military, about women and about young women maybe in particular going in, what would you like to say i think more needs to be done for women within the military they need to be um they need to be listened to um and supported what i have found out through other soldiers is you're not always listening to what a lot of female soldiers, I've said not just females but males as well, they would like to speak to somebody outside the military that doesn't judge,

that doesn't maybe demote or see you as a troublesome person within the military. So a sense of independence? Yes, yes. It would be nice for people to be heard and action to be taken. But I'm hearing a lot from other soldiers especially yesterday I mean I've heard this throughout now since losing my daughter um people just want to be listened to and unfortunately it's they're not what response have you had from the army since since the loss of your girl, since the loss of your daughter? I've received letters.

We've had meetings. It took a long time, a very long time for us to be heard. And that shouldn't have been the case. No mum or any parent should have that feeling that your child is no longer here. It's a day that I will never ever forget. It did take a long time to be heard and understood yes and and that's taken a long time for you as well as the family how should we remember jayley how should we remember your daughter how will you remember with a big smile on her face and a big soft heart that came along with her leanne mccready the mother of jayley Beck. And we do have a statement from the Army.

An Army spokesperson said, our thoughts and sympathies remain with Gunner, Jaisley, Louise, Beck's family and friends at this difficult time. The Army has endorsed all 18 recommendations in the service inquiry report, 15 of which have already been actioned. The remainder will be actioned by December 2023 as part of our absolute commitment to improving and maintaining the safety of our people. The circumstances surrounding Gunnerbeck's death, including the cause, are still to be determined by the coroner. It would be inappropriate to comment further until the coroner's inquest has been completed. And I should say that in response to the report, Grant Shapps, the Defence Secretary, has said,

And Emma also spoke to the family's lawyer, Emma Norton, about this case and the problems it raises when dealing with allegations of assault and harassment in the military. To hear their discussion, you can head to BBC Sounds. It's the Woman's Hour episode from the 5th of October. Now, she's nicknamed the Taylor Swift of classical music. Anna Lapwood is one of the world's most famous organists and the director of music at Pembroke College, Cambridge. She's also a TikTok star and this year she performed at the proms on the 9,999 pipes of the Royal Albert Halls organ. Anna has a new album out called Luna, which she's hoping will introduce more people to the organ. She joined Emma and told her why the album also features modern music we might recognise. If you think about the organ as an instrument more generally, if people haven't spent time in churches, it's a

weird thing to listen to. And you kind of think, hang on a minute, what is this? And so making sure that at least one element of what they're hearing is familiar, I think can really, really, really help sort of demystify the whole thing and maybe bring people to some of the other fantastic music written for the instrument. What do you love about it? Oh, I mean, what's not to love? It's like a big toy box. And when you're playing, I mean, the organ of the Royal Hospital School in Suffolk, and you're playing there, you can hear it from the village, right? You're not just playing something, a little kind of confined instrument you're playing an entire building that starts to shake the walls the windows everything about it it's pretty spectacular do you get annoyed if people ever ask you about is it is it like a piano

i i don't get annoyed because i think like why why should we expect people to know it's got keys but you know it's very different. Obviously, I'm just saying, I wonder, the sort of the education around it? Yeah, I think, yeah, it is a sort of common misconception that it's basically like a giant piano. And actually, there are huge differences. I mean, an organ note can go on indefinitely, if you hold it down, it never dies away. It's not kind of touch sensitive in the same way a piano is. Like if you hit it harder, it will sound the same volume. There are all sorts of differences.

You've got a full pedal board. So you're playing melodies with your feet as well. It's kind of like... It's a whole body workout. Yeah. And sort of piano on steroids, I think. That's where we're going. And you're very good, which i think is also important in your mission

to get more people to know about the organ or perhaps consider it and especially women uh you have this hashtag play like a girl tell us about that because you seem part of your talent with with apart from being able to play the instrument of course but is to communicate about it as well what what is it that you're trying to do when it comes to women and the engagement with organs well the organ world has historically been a pretty male-dominated place. I mean, you said that statistic that the Society of Women Organists dug up, which is that, yeah, in 2022, 8% of organ recitals were given by women. And it's just trying to say to young women who are perhaps thinking of music more generally,

this is a place that you belong to. And so we run the Cambridge Organ Experience for Girls. When we first ran that, it was 20 girls came along, most of them had never played the organ. This year, we had more than 80 girls and 60% of them did already play the organ. So it's just trying to create opportunities and spaces within this amazing world that is the organ world, where they feel safe, where they feel nurtured, where they feel supported and welcome. And hopefully in 10 years time, we won't be having this conversation. Why would you say safe or nurtured? What's off-putting?

Well, I think if the male organists, they tend to start a little bit earlier, right? And so if, I don't know, a 13-year-old girl comes in and she's trying the organ for the first time and she's playing next to a 13-year-old boy who's been playing for quite a long time, that can feel really terrifying, right? And there can be this nervousness of even trying it and taking the risk. Whereas if they're in an environment where actually a lot of them have never played before, some of them have, but they split off into groups, it means that they do feel like they can try it, have a go, maybe get it wrong, that's fine. And yeah, as I said, I think I do, I think we all hope eventually we will not be having the conversation about gender in the organ world because it just won't be a problem anymore. But we still have a way to go before we get there. Is it right you practice in the middle of the night? won't be a problem anymore. But we still have a way to go before we get there. Is it right you practice in the middle of the night? Yeah, a lot of us do, actually.

Right, that's sociable. Well, there are many, many ways. The organ is not the most sociable instrument in the world. But yeah, when we're playing in these cathedrals and concert halls, they tend to be pretty busy in the day. It's a loud instrument. You can't disturb people. And so the standard organist practice hours tend to be middle of the night at the Royal Albert Hall it's midnight till six. I love that I love knowing about other worlds things that are going on when people are asleep that's such a great image almost to have in your mind of organists across the

country and across the world working at twilight. Well, I mean, if you're going to give a recital in a cathedral, you tend to get given a key and you just are in there completely by yourself and it's a little bit spooky, the lights are all off. But you feel like you're sort of seeing a totally different side to these iconic buildings, Westminster Abbey, places like that, where you know they have been so full of joy and life. And then it's just you filling it with sound. If you hit the wrong note when you're playing the organ,

can you cover it over quite easily? It's pretty loud. It's quite loud. I mean, I think as with any instrument, it's about how you kind of... Style it out. How you style it out. And wrong notes happen on every instrument.

They happen. Wrong words happen on the microphone, let me tell you. Scripts and all sorts. You have got this new album and there's a lot on it. How did you choose the tracks? How did you come to put this together? Well, it's all ultimately inspired by the night sky. It's actually inspired by the Zambian night sky.

I spend about a month every year teaching music in Zambia and the African night sky is just a whole different level. You stare up and it's like every second you see more stars coming into view. So that was kind of the starting point. But then I really wanted it to be an album that brought people in who might not have heard the organ before. So yes, we do have some standard organ repertoire. We have some new pieces written for the instrument as well. But I've also taken some of my favourite piano pieces from when I was learning as a young player. I've taken some film soundtracks and written new transcriptions.

So it's not just kind of what you might expect from an organ album. It's trying to do something slightly different. The new album's called Luna and the Lapwood. Thank you very much for coming to talk to us and entertaining some of my own ignorance about organs. And despite my mother-in-law playing the organ, I'm still learning. So there you go. She'll be very happy, I'm sure, I mentioned that.

Anna, very good to talk to you. Emma plays the organ. Ah, maybe we could have a performance on Woman's Hour. That was the organist Anna Lapwood there and her new album, Luna, is out now. Still to come on the programme, former Irish president Mary McAleese tells us why she thinks women should play more of a role in the Catholic Church and Grace Dent on why comfort food is so important

and having a bit of a stress about what toilet roll Stephen Fry uses. Remember, if you can't join us live at 10am during the week, there's a different way to enjoy Woman's Hour, when you like, where you like. Just head to BBC Sounds, which you can do for free, and search Woman's Hour. It's that easy. Now, earlier this week, a woman embarked on a legal first, claiming that the menopause is a disability. Maria Rooney, a social worker, says that she was harassed, victimised and received unfavourable treatment while going through the menopause. She was working for Leicester City Council, who've said it wasn't appropriate to comment on the case while it's still ongoing.

Someone who knows a lot about this process is Karen Farkerson. Karen was awarded £37,000 at an employment tribunal after her boss told her she used the menopause as an excuse for everything. She was an office manager at Thistle Marine, a company in Scotland, and had worked there for 27 years. She successfully sued her employer for unfair dismissal and harassment. Emma spoke to Karen and asked her about the reaction to the ruling. My phone's been red hot. Right, yes, because this is very new. Your verdict only came in last week,

but I know you've been preparing for this for some time, this case. Yes, six months. How has that been? Because the process of actually doing this is a big one. Yes, it is. Lots of meetings with my HR representative that did my case for me. Lots of preliminary hearings and lots of preparation mentally as well. What was happening where you worked?

What was something that you started to notice was being said about you or how did this all begin? It was just a snowball effect really that came to a head one Thursday afternoon when I came into work. I'd actually been working from home during the symptoms so I didn't call in sick, I worked from home and then when it was possible to travel I came up to work and I was met with rude comments by my director. Do you mind sharing what some of them are? Well he said oh I see you made it in then and walked away and I explained my situation and what was happening with myself and I then approached another director and I said, he can't talk to me like that. You know why I was working from home. I need to explain the situation.

Then that director interrupted and said, menopause, menopause. Everybody gets the menopause. You just have to deal with it. That's your excuse for everything. But it was full of swear words as well. And what did you say? I burst into tears. I was hysterical. I couldn't believe I was being met with those comments.

A place you'd worked at, as I mentioned, nearly 30 years. Yes. I'd known them for 27 and a half years. And then what was the rest of the day like? What happened after then? Were you comforted? No, I was shouted at even more and they were asking me to calm down because I was very upset and I just had to leave. I said I had to get out of this situation and I went to my car and phoned my husband. And was that it? Were you able to return? Were you able to do anything else? No, I had to go. I went and sought legal advice because I was just in utter shock at what happened and went home and I submitted a

grievance letter which was ignored. What were your symptoms and what are your symptoms present tense I know you're still in the process of this. Yes still in process and I've got brain fog I've got a emotional um lots of emotional anxiety I can cry very quickly I can get upset very quickly I get very stressed I am I'm in constant pain because I've also got a condition called adenomyosis and that is currently being investigated and I have to say I'm sorry to say I know it well I have it myself uh it's not very pleasant it's extremely unpleasant so I'm very sorry on all of this but I um for people who don't know about that it is extremely painful yeah well I had that on top of the regular menopause symptoms and had to deal with as well yes had you told the people you were working with because you said that you there was obviously they

used it against you so you must have at some point had a conversation. Yeah. Back in August 21, when I started going through the perimenopause, I was up front with them and explained the situation. And how was that greeted? They seemed to be fine about it. I hadn't noticed anything untoward. But I worked with the younger director the older director he didn't like people taking time off end of that was his he's been quoted he's been quoted from the the proceedings as um it's on the public record as calling people who took time off snowflakes that is correct so so you felt comfortable enough to say you were going through these symptoms when you first raised it were you were you saying you could still work but you might need to work differently when you

first said yes um i could work from home if it was if it was needed and nobody seemed to um say no to that um i had full use of working facilities at home. I used to have to drive an hour to work and an hour home. And it's quite uncomfortable driving when you're experiencing symptoms. So the point was, you weren't saying, I can't do my job. You were asking how you could do it a bit differently based on these symptoms. And then you've described how things reached ahead and then how you went forward with the grievance procedure. Can I ask, at that time, did you realise that it was discrimination? I mean, you've just been successful in this tribunal, but you know,

when something's happening at the time, you don't always think of it in that way. Does that make sense? Yeah. I was more in shock that I'd been spoken to like that at first. It was just this pure disbelief. I just couldn't believe that somebody that I'd known all that time could speak to me like that. I got in touch with an HR consultant and explained the situation and he said that there was a definite case there. And you went forward with it? You decided to go for it? Yeah.

Because that's another thing, having to find the courage to go forward. It sure is. It's been the most upsetting and quite liberating that I've held them to account. At the same time, my mental health has suffered greatly this year, but I've found that this week with the support I've got, that's been really helping me. What did it feel like when you heard the verdict, when you heard that you had won? Pure relief. And that I'd made them accountable for what they did. Yeah, it must have been an incredible feeling.

I was really pleased for women out there as well, because it can show them that they can do it too and not stand up for it. And doing it while you're going through the menopause still. Yeah, and holding down another full-time job. Because you do have another job, we should say that. Yeah, yeah. How do you think you're going to be moving forward now, having gone through this process, having won,

and still going through the menopause? I want to help others now. I want to support other women that's going through it. They shouldn't be alone in this. And they need to speak up for themselves with their employers. You are living proof that you can work through the menopause, even with very difficult symptoms. Are there days where you don't feel like you can work?

For sure. Yeah, for sure. Sometimes the pain is just unbearable. OK, because we are getting so many messages in from our listeners about whether, not all the details are out there yet, but there is this attempt to say that menopause is a disability. Not necessarily on the legal side of that, but what's your kind of gut reaction to that when you hear it, having just gone through a tribunal would you welcome that i would definitely welcome that but as you said earlier some women do sail through it um and others have a totally different experience just with you and your friends your family i know your husband's also been a support has going through this process also helped them understand how to better support you

for sure oh definitely yeah I just some of them didn't realize the impact that it was having on me and uh what what happened at work it wasn't until the judgment came through and they could see it for themselves exactly what I did go through do you think you've changed anyone's minds at your old place? Well, no, your old place of work. Do you think that... I wouldn't know. Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, to know? But your case being in the newspapers

at least prompts a conversation perhaps for people. Yes. I've got friends that are now bringing up their employers now. Karen Farkerson speaking to Emma there. Now this week marked a historic occasion for the Catholic Church. Clergy and lay members met at the Vatican for the start of a global meeting about the future direction of the Church called a Synod. This Synod will look at the ways people participate in the Church and will discuss the future direction of key issues such as more inclusivity

for Catholics who identify as LGBTQ and the role of women. And for the first time, some women are going to be allowed to vote in those decisions. Alongside this official event, a group of 45 pro-reform Catholic organisations will be running their own gathering. One of the keynote speakers at this event was former Irish President Mary McAleese. Emma spoke to Mary ahead of the event and asked why this is being called a crunch time for the Pope. I think it's more than a crunch time for the Pope, frankly. I think it's a crunch time for the Church.

But what we're hoping is, as you know, Pope Francis' synod meets. It's meeting at the end of a two-year process that started in diocese, a dialogue in diocese and a national diocese, a continental diocese with hundreds of thousands of people taking part around the world. And honestly, what's remarkable about it is the consensus that has emerged. Doesn't matter what continent you're talking about or what culture um the message very clearly from all the people all the catholics who took part is that they want the church to reform on the issue of the inclusion of women well particularly the exclusion of women i was going to say ordination and the exclusion of women from um from this all-making in the church

and things like also obviously LGBTIQ and church governance. They want a more, essentially, a more modern form of governance and decision-making. They want a form of governance in which decisions that are made, particularly around teachings, are made as a result of discussion with the people who are going to be impacted by them. That is not the case in the church.

If I may just break in at this point, there's a lot of information there, but it's really good to have that overview. There's a couple of things coming out. One is about leadership and direction and being able to decide. That, you tell me, is that being debated because, if it is being debated, because the Pope and his cardinals and those around him do not see it as, how do I put it, accurate in terms of how they understand how the power structure should be in terms of the Bible, that women should play that role? What is the resistance to it? Well, the resistance is largely cultural and historic. The Catholic Church's system of governance is pretty much 19th century imperial in style. And there aren't too

many of those empires left. It's probably one of the last standing where you have a very, very, very narrow top level of an elite. And in our case, it's an elite that is celibate and compulsorily celibate and male. A very tiny elite governs a mass organization. I mean, you are talking about an organization that is 1.3 billion people in the world, the biggest NGO in the world that has permanent representative status at the United Nations. It's a key influencer on five continents. One in six people in the world

are members of this church. So it is a hugely influential body. It teaches millions and millions of people. It has 200,000 schools. So you can imagine the conduits that it has to influence people's thinking, laws and cultures. That's been ongoing for a very long time. And unfortunately, it has over these generations, it has accreted and secreted embedded attitudes to women, which we are still suffering from. At the moment, women, and we are half the Catholic Church, I mean, you're talking millions and millions and millions of people, we are excluded from being not just priests, but also deacons. And if we look at the so-called theology on which this is based,

it is ridiculous drivel, frankly. I mean, I've studied it for years. Is it? I don't even bother any longer to take it seriously. It is so thin. It is so, it's so really very, very poor. Is that, as you call it, drivel, is that actually what's still being used to justify the exclusion?

Oh, yes. I mean, let me give you a very, very good example from last week, no less. And in answering that, the Pope was answering a question about women's ordination. And he said that the teaching in the church that you have to you have to really think carefully about this, that it's not a dogmatic definition. It is merely a definitive statement. But that definitive statements, their exact nature is not fully developed. But meanwhile, while they're developing it, we, the faithful in the church, must, these are his words, not mine, must be adhered to by all. And we cannot publicly contradict it. I mean, seriously, I'm contradicting it right now publicly because I think it's drivel.

And I certainly will not be told that I must believe something that I simply cannot believe. Thanks be to God, I have the human right to freedom of conscience, belief and opinion and also freedom of expression. How does that affect your faith with the Pope? It doesn't affect my faith in God in the least. It makes me very frustrated as a member of the Catholic Church. But you obviously feel you can change something, which is why you're doing this. I feel it has to change. And I do see some movement. The very fact that the synod is taking place, the very fact that out of the 450 odd people, there will be for the first time 54 They're there by grace and favour. So that's something that has to change. On the other hand, there is a process of change happening. It's not happening from the top

down, Emma. It's happening from the bottom up. The faithful are, bit by bit, they are dismantling the old architecture of unacceptable teachings by just ignoring them or walking away, as many people do, challenging them, critiquing them. Now, the Pope did say last week that we are able to study these teachings, particularly the teaching that excludes women, and we've been doing that for decades and presenting him with the evidence that he's wrong. What makes you think you can change this? Oh, I don't. I'm not sure at all that we can.

I'm just hoping that we can and hoping that the powerful voices of very committed Catholic women will eventually lead to the ending of the tin ear that we have been used to for decades. What do you say to Catholic women? The answer is very simple. It's either listen to us or listen as we walk away. And I'm trying to get a word in here with you to understand it. But what do you say to those Catholic women who are listening who don't think it's drivel,

who don't think it's drivel, who don't think it's drivel to to try and listen to the Pope's explanation as to why he thinks there shouldn't be ordination of women and women in those positions? Listen to me. I didn't say that listening to him is drivel. No, no. But you said this. Well, if you are listening to him, you've said some of what he said is drivel. I said what he said is drivel. I do think it's worth listening to and it is worth critiquing and it is worth bringing scholarly views to bear on it. And having brought those to bear, I think, you know, we're entitled to say, actually, this stuff doesn't hold water. It's poor. It's poorly argued. So you're trying to are you trying to give people confidence to listen critically? Correct. Because that isn't always part of religion, is it? And to challenge critically and to use their critical skills.

I mean, I belong to a church that does not acknowledge that we have the human right as individuals to challenge, to critique, to use our conscience, to use our own brainpower, to form our own opinions. We're told we have to obey the magisterium. That is the teaching of the bishops. Well, nowadays, people just say, oh, no, hang on a minute. I don't accept that teaching. In the past, it was much easier to have that kind of generals and conscripts relations. The generals spoke and the conscripts reacted by doing without thinking passively. But those days of passive obedience are long over. I mean, we know, for example, from the clerical child sexual abuse scandals, what happens when people are passively obedient and silent, that terrible things happen and are allowed to happen. And we

simply cannot let them continue to happen. We've got a few messages. Let me read a couple out, because it's important to talk about not just religion and faith, but how you react to your faith and how you interact with it, which is what you're coming to here, you know, listening to the Pope, but being able to critique and have a scholarly response. And it's a good opportunity. There's a couple of messages here. There's a lovely one from Reverend Elise Harding, who's now in Dorset, but she said she was officially the first woman priest to be licensed to officiate in Tenerife. And she said being a Spanish island and Roman Catholic, it was quite groundbreaking. They didn't know what to call me, so they called me father. She was talking about what to actually talk about when we talk about changing religions. Marian's in touch to say, as an ex-nun,

I'm continually trying to change many issues in the Catholic Church, especially in relationship to women. And there's one here, which I wanted to give you the in the Catholic Church, especially in relationship to women. And there's one here which I wanted to give you the chance to respond to. You know, you're a former politician, lawyer. Paul says, I'd like to remind Mary McAleese that the Catholic Church is an apostolic church. Let me get that right. And Jesus chose 12 men as apostles. Jesus was not afraid to infringe the customs of his time. So he would have appointed female apostles if he'd so wished. What did you say to that? Well, he didn't create a hierarchy.

That's the first thing. Nor did he actually appoint any Italians or Irish men or Americans or... Yes. So there's a question for you. Yes, how do you explain then? How do you explain a priesthood that has expanded now to tens and tens and tens of thousands who are not just people born and raised in the Middle East?

You know, it's nonsense. Seriously, I mean, honestly, I just don't want to waste my time anymore on silly, silly stuff. That was former Irish President Mary McAleese speaking to Emma. Now, here's a bit of a filthy question. What's your comfort food? I asked all of you this on the programme yesterday, and we had all sorts of responses ranging from blackberry jam to cheesy chicken curry. And I asked about comfort food because the writer, broadcaster and food critic Grace Dent has a new book, Comfort Eating, What We Eat When Nobody's Looking.

It's inspired by her podcast of the same name, where she talks with a variety of celebrities to discover their secret snacks. Well, Grace joined me in the studio on Friday and I started by asking her about the podcast. I had no idea when I began that by getting celebrities round to my house to talk about the things that they actually really eat, I didn't know it would be such a way in for them to talk about their childhoods, their relationship with their mother, their relationship with the lady down the road that their mother left them with, their relationship with school and boarding school. It's been wonderful. I think that when you ask them to bring a snack as well, the thing they really eat, they're not talking about a fancy restaurant or a thing that they would put on Instagram. Nobody puts these things on social media. It's that embarrassing thing that they would never, ever speak about. I've bought my thing with me.

Go on, please. What have you brought? A thing that I eat when no one's watching. She's brought a tin. I have a tin. Oh my goodness. And I have it with me. Oh yes.

It's a tin of spaghetti. It's little spaghetti. I won't name any brands because I'm a good girl. In tomato sauce. These are little pigs in I won't name any brands because I'm a good girl. In tomato sauce. These are little pigs in tomato sauce. They're pig shanks. Grace has even brought a spoon. I've brought a spoon. She's going to eat it. Go on, let's hear that.

I'm having them cold because I think... Because she's gross. No, no, amazing. That's just rude, isn't it? I think the world divides into people... Love divides into people that can get spaghetti or beans to the microwave without having some and then perfectly sane people like me that have to have a couple of spoons before they get there. I'm delighted you brought the spaghetti and not beans because I much prefer the spaghetti shapes over the beans. I think, though, when we eat these spaghetti in sauce, beans in sauce, these come up a lot on the podcast, a lot of tomato soup.

Yes. And I think even though this sauce that I'm pointing at here, it doesn't taste of tomato. It's not tomato, but I think it is a link back to childhood. We all remember coming in on a cold day and somebody loving us and giving us that tomato soup or this. To me, that's caravan holidays. That is a static caravan in Great Britain in the 70s. Nine days in a static caravan living the dream being bombarded by wind and rain and coming in and and eating that and i think that every time i come in from masterchef and i've spent the whole day eating very very rich food made by very stressed chefs haunch of venison and kumquat souffle i come in and i think i'm just i'm hungry i just want something and i, I take off all the accoutrements that make me the natural beauty I am. Eyelashes, pieces of clipping hair, all these things, the bra, everything.

And then the shell of me stands at the back door. And I eat this while looking at the plants that have died in my garden. And everything on television, everything in my life, I sometimes think is smoke and mirrors. It's media. But this little can is complete reality. The other thing you do that I think, apart from just the premise of it, that gets to the core and makes people open up,

is the other thing you do is invite them into your home to record the podcast. Yes. That's incredibly exposing vulnerable intimate is there but and also disarming because they're seeing you and your real life do you tidy up before they come around what do you think of course i tidy up i'm a i'm a i'm a working class northern woman the house has never been so clean for those 10 minutes before they turn up. The entire place just smells of furniture polish. There's a little fold in the toilet roll.

I worry so much before people come to my house that it completely overtakes the actual interview. Somebody's trying to brief me and tell me it's an arc of an interview. And I'm worrying about the ply of toilet roll that stephen fry might need should he need to go to the loo and there's always a moment where a celebrity's walking up the path and i'm taking pants off a radiator just hiding them somewhere i think it um i mean more seriously yeah it does completely disarms people but every season i say they're not coming back to my house. And yet here we are. They're still in my house.

And now people want to do it just to come to be in your house to see. I love it. I love it. It's always interesting to, because I mean, I live on, I live in East London on a terraced street. So neighbours do look out and kind of go, is that Lady Danbury from Bridgerton walking in? It's wonderful. How much of this is, you know, you've spoken a lot about class,

but how much of this is about, you know, class? I am very wary of saying about these foods, it's working class, it's working class, it's working class, because I know that upper class people go, Grace, I do know what a potato waffle is. Do they? I do know my way around the freezer cabinet of a garage when I'm on my way home.

So I do think that these things, and especially in the book, I talk about cheese being actually a great leveller, because even if you completely don't understand each other around a table table you're all different classes you you're all going to be you know made to feel delicious and wonderful and warm by the fatty majesty of cheese until you're working class and you go and cut the nose off the cheese and then you're never invited back rebecca texted in to say i'm an absolute glutton so how wonderful to talk about comfort food ice cream coconut please to calm a hot flush and then a handful of dark chocolate covered almonds yum uh jacqueline says

stewed blackberries and custard picked in september and frozen eaten in the depths of winter the glorious smells of cinnamon and fruit cheer up a gray day a gray day great for mental health it's a tradition originally started when i was a child with my now 85 year old mum dot we both still continue the tradition um that brings me on to a bit of your book that i read and had me in floods of tears and actually recounting it in the office this morning i was crying and it was the you talk about uh your mum who you lost during the pandemic yeah and the food that you shared with her and how important that was. I'll let you tell us.

Darling, I can see your emotion. Yeah, no, this is very powerful. And, you know, I'm on book tour at the moment and we've had a lot of crying because food, delivering food, comfort foods to the people that we love when they're sick or when they are end of life is the most sincere form of love. You can't just stand around people telling them that you love them because caring in all its shapes and forms, especially when you're caring for your parents when they're leaving, when they're on their way out, it's all in trays.

It's just trays. It's just trays of food and nothing complex it's bready things and sugary things and cheesy things at very push maybe pasta but really nobody lies on their deathbed and asks for something very very complex and there's often not a lot of protein it's carby things uh i've lost both my parents uh very recently and i had to write about it i don't think i'm the only person that's lost my parents i think i'm generation x i'm just on 50 this is when it happens that we're the grown-ups now apparently apparently i'm the grown-up now um and when i was writing about the and when I was writing about the book

when I was writing about comfort eating I think I thought it was going to be a jolly book my last book Hungry I talked a lot about my father's dementia and food and also a memoir about food Can we name your mum and dad? Oh my mother was called Grace and my grandma's called Grace.

We were all named during a name shortage, I think. No, my dad was called George. Grace and George. Grace and George. And I think when I sat down to do Comfort Eat, I went, absolutely, this time, no. I'm just going to make it jolly. And it's going to be about spaghetti and crispy pancakes.

But I'm incapable of doing it. And I ended up writing about the end, about the end with my mother and those going home for what I knew in the end was going to be. I was always there back and forth, back and forth when they were old and aging and on their way out. But there was a specific 60 days, which was, I always say, the final push. Although we couldn't quite name it, me and her, because if you just don't say it, it's not happening. I was always very angry afterwards that I'd even allowed nurses to say the word palliative because I felt like it was then my fault for saying it. And accepting the pain relief because then you realize you've bargained and in making them comfortable you've stopped them speaking but I will always treasure the last 25 days because

we just ate a lot of cake and watched home improvement shows and I think that's living that is living my happiest memories is eating plum loaf and her saying well I'd knock that wall down you know that kind of and telling me exactly oh I'd get rid of that wood chip and they were the happiest times. Grace Dent talking to me there about her new book Comfort Eating what we eat when nobody's looking it's out now it'll make you laugh it'll make you weep. Well that's all from me this afternoon but Woman's Hour is back of course course, on Monday morning with Emma. She'll be hearing about unconventional living situations and how they can work better for some families

and speaking to a woman whose husband and boyfriend live together. How on earth does that work? Join Emma on Monday to find out. Have a great rest of your weekend. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. weekend. I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.