Woman's Hour - Gunner Jaysley Beck's mother, Wild Hope, Earth Mama, Dangerous dogs

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

An Army investigation has found that 19-year-old soldier Jaysley Beck is believed to have taken her own life after a period of relentless sexual harassment from one of her bosses. The gunner was serving in the Royal Artillery, and was found dead at the Larkhill army camp in Wiltshire in December 2021. Her mother Leighann McCready joins Emma along with Emma Norton, Director and Solicitor for the Centre for Military Justice.Poet Donna Ashworth has released a new collection of her work, Wild Hope. It is a selection of poems and passages that she hopes will help people to find hope in an increasingly pressurised world. She joins Emma to talk about why she picked up poetry in her 40s, and how it has changed her life.Savanah Leaf is a Team GB volleyball player turned film director, whose feature film Earth Mama is playing at the London Film Festival this week. Having competed in the 2012 Olympics, Savanah turned to filmmaking as a hobby when recovering from an injury. She joins Emma to discuss the transferable skills between sports and directing and tackling the US foster care system in her directorial debut.Lakaydia Reynolds was walking through a park in south London on her way to a driving lesson when she was attacked by three dogs. The dog’s owner tried to intervene, but the dogs injured her arm, legs and face. A stranger saw the attack and filmed it happening, rather than moving to intervene. The footage was uploaded to social media, where it has been viewed tens of thousands of times. Emma talks to Lakaydia about what she experienced. Susie Kahlich founded Pretty Deadly Self Defense and offers listeners tips on how best to defend themselves in a dog attack.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome. Words and the power of them. Yesterday we began the programme ahead of the Prime Minister's speech at the Conservative Party conference about those words that you were about to hear if you were going to engage with them and you were kind enough to tell me what you wanted to hear Rishi Sunak say, especially after that polling showed that the Conservatives are losing female voters. Did he deliver? Did the rhetoric work, the hours of practice I'm sure that went in there and convince you of the man and his vision of our society and country? Or did Rishi

Sunak's words serve the opposite purpose? Because words and what they do to us is what we're going to focus on today. Broadening out from political speeches to words that perhaps heal, inspire, imbue you with hope, maybe make you, I don't know, view the world anew or feel better. Maybe it's just that. What are yours? Today happens to be World Poetry Day. We have a poet on the programme and I wanted to give you the opportunity to share the words or poem that you go back to again and again. How did you first discover them? Why? Why did they speak to you? Personally, I love the American novelist and poet Gertrude Stein's words on contentment. She said, one must dare to be happy. Dare.

So much in that one word alone in that context. So let's dare on this. Do tell me. 84844. I dare you to get in touch. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Tell me those words. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour.

You can email me through the Women's Hour website or go for a WhatsApp Tell me those words on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through the Women's Hour website or go for a WhatsApp message with those words or voice note. Use your voice to tell me them on 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges. Might be best to go to Wi-Fi. You can check the terms and conditions on our website. Also on today's programme, a woman who has said making a film is harder than competing in the Olympics. Well, she should know, Savannah Leaf is a director who started her career, though, competing for Team GB in volleyball at the London 2012 Olympics. And another woman is on the programme today who has been filmed, but not in the way that she would hope. Her story to come soon.

But first, Jaisley Beck, a 19-year-old female soldier, is believed to have taken her own life after relentless sexual harassment by one of her bosses. That's according to an army investigation, the details of which were published yesterday. The Royal Artillery gunner from Cumbria was found dead at Larkhill Camp in Wiltshire in December 2021. An inquest is still to take place, but the report describes, and I quote, an intense period of unwelcome behaviour and says it is almost certain this was a causal factor in her death.

This man sent Jaisley thousands of WhatsApp messages and voicemails in the two months before her death. Her mother, Leanne McCready, joined me just before I came on air this morning and I started by asking what it had been like for her with the story hitting the headlines. For me personally, it's been overwhelming and in some ways positive. It's reaching out to so many other female soldiers that have been in contact on the back of the headlines yesterday and been over the media. The fact that people are engaging with the message that's been sent across,

it gives us comfort it gives us comfort that people are able now to reach out um i'm overwhelmed i'm over absolutely overwhelmed by the response but a good response i think in general yes I hope to hear that and and it's good that you feel that there's some strength from that as well yeah with this with the support and a lot of people are struck by many things to do with your your daughter and her story but she was very young wasn't she when she joined up? She was very young she was 16 when she joined the military as a royal artillery gunner yes is that something she'd always wanted to do no it was very out of the blue and that came from a career's day at school okay and and then the the road was suddenly set and off she went yes yes she was

on a mission and she was on a mission to join. Was she excited? Extremely excited yes yes. And how did you feel as her mum? Which mum wants to know that the the the princess is going to be a soldier? It was it came as a shock, fully supportive of Jaisley's career choice. As a mum, you kind of, you want them home forever. Well, I certainly do. But no, we supported her. We supported her choices. And it started well? It did extremely well. Yes, extremely well um she was in constant contact um with us you could tell how how happy she was how much she was striving um in the army it had its challenges

um absolutely there were challenges along the way it wasn smooth sailing. It was a lot of hard work and dedication on Jaisley's side and her colleague's side. But no, it started off extremely well. When were you aware something wasn't okay? Initially, July time, she contacted us to say that an assault had been taken place. A sexual assault had been taken place. She alleged a sexual assault had been taken place and told you about it? Yes, yes. There's some details that have come out into what has happened with your daughter and how her situation was handled. An inquest, I should say, to officially determine

how she died is still to be carried out. But the military inquiry identified two causal factors and other contributory factors and mentioned the death of her uncle and other family issues. I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to that and how you felt that that was included in the report, those details of the family. We did have a bereavement in the family and like any other family, it affects, you know, it's not something you forget when you've got such a close member of the family um that has passed and again like any other family we were grieving but also a very

strong supportive family yes and the report going on to some of what you were starting to talk about there said that your daughter, Jaisley, was the recipient of persistent unwelcome attention and behaviour over a period of approximately two months preceding her death. And that, you know, what it sort of describes or that picture that it gives is, you know, just overwhelming sense of of attention and harassment yes yes um again she she brought that to to our attention um jaysley um not just only with myself but the the wider family um is open is able to have open discussions and brought everything to our attention so we was fully of fully aware of the um the messages that she were receiving and the unwanted attention that she were receiving i mean did she show you any of these messages? Yes, yes. It was only four days prior to her passing that she opened up a chat with myself, my partner, and my eldest daughter, Emily.

And every message that she was receiving four days prior, she was passing on to us and we was we was able to see the messages that she was receiving and what was your response to that you as a parent you're in a very difficult position because you you just want to go pick you you want to go pick them up from work. But unfortunately, within the military, it doesn't work like that. We could only advise on our side, offer reassurance and offer support and try to encourage for our daughter to report this. However, the response from Jaisley was, I don't want to be known as a troublemaker.

I don't want to be branded as a female troublemaker mum. So that's what she said to you about that? Yes. Because, I mean, just to say this again, and it's important to say it to you, it's a scale of this, of the messages that she was receiving. More than 1,000 WhatsApp messages and voicemails, increasing to 3,500 the following month.

And some messages were said to be controlling in their nature. Yes. I mean, it was an extraordinary amount. It was an extraordinary amount. And not only was the messages coming through, she wanted to, in a polite way, say, you know, stop. She did try. She did try, again, in the most politest way possible. And to the back end, she got more direct direct more blunt towards him but not only was it about the messages it

was also about his unwanted behavior the jealousy that um he showed when she were with other um or other colleagues he didn't like um and mixing with other males um to the point he'd walk out of rooms, he would leave rooms when she was in talk with other colleagues, to the point that, to the very back end, the other colleagues surrounding Jaisley within her team noticed his behaviour also. What was your last conversation like or your last exchange with your daughter? on the it was late night on the 14th when she was enjoying her time with

her friends as she was sending us videos which she always did we knew her every movement because she kept us updated as did we we kept Jaisley updated on our side, what we were doing throughout the day. And this was every day. This was what we did within our family.

We had a group family WhatsApp. Yeah, many people do. They'll be able to relate to that. So, yeah, she was having lots of fun. It was Christmas period and she was having fun. And then, of course, you received the news. Yes, it was myself and my eldest daughter that had concerns on the morning of the 15th when I tried to speak to Jaisla. Granted, it was a little bit early in the morning

and I had to bear in mind that she had been celebrating Christmas because they were due to all break up and go on home leave. So I'm mindful of the time. And as I tried contacting her later on during the day, still no response. I did become extremely worried. I'm very, very sorry for your loss and for your family. Thank you.

As you describe it, you know, she was so excited to be there, making a career, having her friends. And yet, I don't know if you've been aware of some of these headlines. I'm sure you have been, but you've also been, you know, trying to grieve and dealing with your own loss. There are concerns, which we've also got your lawyer on the line. I'll talk to her in just a moment, Emma Norton. But there are concerns about the military and women in particular

there have been reports about that if you could say something to the defence secretary to Grant Shapps and to those who are in charge the top brass of the military about women and about young women maybe in particular going in what would you like to say? I think more needs to be done for women within the military. They need to be listened to and supported. What I have found out through other soldiers is you're not always listened to. What a lot of female soldiers, I've said not just females, but males as well, they would like to speak to somebody outside the military that doesn't judge, that doesn't maybe demote or see you as a troublesome person within the military.

So a sense of independence independence yes yes um it would be nice to for people to be heard and an action to be taken um but i'm hearing a lot from other soldiers especially especially yesterday. I mean, I've heard this throughout now since losing my daughter. People just want to be listened to. And unfortunately, they're not. What response have you had from the army since the loss of your girl, since the loss of your daughter? I've received letters, we've had meetings, it took a long time, a very long time for us to be heard and that shouldn't have been the case. No mum or any parent should have that feeling that your child is no longer here

it it's a day that I will never ever forget it did take a long time to be to be heard and understood yes and and that's taken a long time for you as well as the family how should we remember jaycee how should we remember your daughter how will you remember her with a big smile on her face and a big soft heart that came along with her now i can see the smile and hear the smile on your face when you you think of her like that yeah Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you. And to all of us. Let me bring in Emma Norton, your lawyer and also director of the Centre for Military Justice, which provides legal services to serving or former members of the armed forces

or their bereaved families. Good morning, Emma. Good morning. What do you make of what Leanne has had to say there? Well, it's incredibly powerful, isn't it? It's incredibly powerful to think about what Jaisley was going through in the months before she died in this campaign of relentless sexual harassment that she was subjected to, that came on the back of an allegation of sexual assault as well, which does not appear to have been dealt with appropriately. They should have referred that to the police and they didn't. It looks like they didn't. And there's still been no explanation as to how that happened. So the family are obviously left with all of these enormous questions and are having to shoulder that burden of having to find out what happened at the same time as having to come to terms with the loss of their daughter.

And as Leanne has just described to you, they're learning so much about the military system through this process, which is stuff they didn't know before. And one of the things that Leanne's just touched on there is this overwhelming sense that there needs to be greater degrees of independence for service women and men but anyone that is suffering serious sexual harassment or other serious problems like Jay's Lee was clearly suffering they need to go to outside of the single services there needs to be an independent route for them to report and have those matters properly investigated. Because, of course, we don't know what Jaisley might have done if she had known that there was an independent source that she could go to for a proper independent investigation.

But it might have made a difference. And it certainly has to a lot of other women today. Yeah, sorry. All I was going to say was I think we should just remind our listeners that the barrage of messages, you know, thousands, was by one of her bosses as well. You know, when we talk about how this works and the system works and the need for independence, you know,

people may not be able to relate to a lot of this story, but what they perhaps could relate to is not wanting to be seen as a troublemaker, not wanting to threaten their career, not wanting to bring about any difficulty at work. And that makes this particular case of the details we do know, you know, a particularly difficult one to think about how you would navigate, especially as a 19-year-old. Exactly. And so the army will say, well, she could have gone outside of the chain of command, and they have introduced a system now whereby you can go outside of the chain of command. But what I would say to that is, big deal. That should have always been the case,

as a bare minimum. But what you want, and what repeated independent reviews have recommended, and that the MOD keeps rejecting, is that you need to go outside of the single services, you need to go away from the services themselves, there needs to be an independent body whose job it is to investigate these kinds of serious, complex, sensitive issues. It was recommended in 2019, the then Secretary of State for Defence said he would accept it and did not. And it's been recommended in 2021 by the Defence Committee Inquiry into Women in the Armed Forces. And again, the Defence are going to be writing to him today, we're going to publish a copy of the letter, they are going to be asking for him to look again at the Wigston recommendations and the Defence Inquiry recommendations into independence in handling service complaints because that is something that might have made a difference in this case. I mean I'm praising this because I did one of the interviews interviews with one of the previous Defence Secretaries on this programme, Ben Wallace,

when asking why that particular recommendation was not accepted. And I believe that the government's position at that time was something to the effect of, if you took that part of it away from the military, the military then loses its ability to be able to have that control and ability to be able to have that discipline itself because it's a rank and file organisation. You know what I'm getting at. That was the source of position.

You could perhaps say it better. That is the argument they trot out every time. You try and generate any kind of independent or civilian oversight or input into some of these issues. Let us manage our people. We know what's best for them. And unfortunately, it's also a license to not investigate things properly. Another way of putting that would be a license to cover things up. So we're not saying in relation to every single complaint,

there needs to be a whole massive independent process. No. But there are certain types of complaint. This would have been one of them where you're raising serious, be a whole massive independent process no but there are certain types of complaint this would have been one of them where you're raising serious complex issues of discrimination harassment bullying those kinds of cases there needs to be a threshold but they need to be taken away from the single services themselves because they are not capable of investigating them properly and what you see in this kind of situation is the catastrophic potential out and end of that process but every day our charity being contacted by women who are who are experiencing

these kinds of issues and they do not have any faith in the complaint system even even with some of the changes that have been made and the headlines that have been made with these reviews even with those even with those, because you've still got the services investigating the services. What sort of numbers are you looking at of women who get in touch? Because we also know that there's a drive from the military across the forces to have more women. In 2021, that was reforms from the Ministry of Defence, is looking to double the number of women to 30% by 2030. Yes, well, I mean, these kinds of stories aren't going to help that recruitment drive, are they?

And that is also something I think that the new Defence Secretary should consider. You know, he needs to send a very clear message that they are really serious about tackling some of the wider systemic issues that women are experiencing seemingly on quite a regular basis. Certainly, Leanne has been contacted by a number of individual soldiers just since her daughter's case hit the headlines

to say that they have experienced sexual assaults or sexual harassments. So in your view, I mean, you don't have to give absolute numbers, but you don't see this going down, this problem at the moment. You're not seeing fewer women coming to you since some of these reforms? No, absolutely not. And of course, the MOD would say that that's a sign of increased confidence. People are coming forward to perhaps have their complaints considered. And that is a perfectly reasonable point to make.

It might also reflect the reality on the ground as well, which is that women are continuing to suffer these kinds of experiences in disproportionate ways to men. Yeah. Emma Norton, Director of the Centre for Military Justice and the family lawyer of Jaisley Beck's family. And you were listening just before to her mother, Leanne McCready. There's a statement here from the army and army spokesperson said, our thoughts and sympathies remain with Gunner J Jaisley, Louise, Beck's family and friends at this difficult time. The Army has endorsed all 18 recommendations in the service inquiry report, 15 of which have already been actioned. The remainder will be actioned by the end of December

2023 as part of our absolute commitment to improving and maintaining the safety of our people. The circumstances surrounding Gunnebeck's death, including the cause, are still to be determined by the coroner. It would be inappropriate to comment further until the coroner's inquest has been completed. And I should say in response to that report, Grant Shapps, the Defence Secretary, has said in all walks of life, whenever abuse takes place, but particularly in the British military and the brave men and women put themselves forward to serve the country, that kind of behaviour would have no part at all in the British military. Now, you've been getting in touch about the words that help you on the road that we call life.

When did you last read a poem? What was the moment you found yourself reaching for the words of others to bring something to your life perhaps you even write poetry yourself it is national poetry day i think i said it was world poetry day i'm a bit excited that it's national poetry day uh the first time my next guest donna ashworth picked up a poetry book since her school days was when she was in her 40s and she's now published seven books and her poem history will remember when the world stopped went viral during lockdown in 2020. Her newest collection is called Wild Hope and it's a set of poems, sayings and passages to help find that bit of light she hopes when times get dark. Donna Ashworth, good morning.

Good morning. Poetry for people when they reach for it, it might not be their comfort zone, they may not have even read it at school, but what do you you feel about it now and you had a long break from it yeah I mean I think poetry for me is a bit like self-help I think it's the sort of self-help from the olden days and I feel that rather than sort of have this grand vision in our minds that poetry is something very creative and very complicated. What it really is, is just the right words in the right order to pass along a message or instill some emotion, hope or comfort. And I feel like it hasn't really evolved into modern life.

It's almost as though poetry is still something we think is in the past. So I would love to see it more and more a part of our daily lives because really we use it so much. Yes, I mean, for some who will be much more used to it in their lives, and I'm just thinking of the fact

I listened to a brilliant three-part programme on Radio 4 about, you know, W.H. Auden. You know, for some, though, it will be in their lives because they have turned to it in a difficult moment. But I take the point that as the mainstream, where people have it in their mind, if they have it at all, is somewhere else. And it's interesting seeing what people are getting in touch with this morning. I thought I'd just share before we get to your words, a message here from Carol, who's listening in Streatham in South London, who says, Good morning, Emma. My poem is Morning Song

by Sylvia Plath. I bought her book of poems, Ariel, for my husband. It's a huge poetry fan. And that poem, the first in the book, really spoke to me. It's about, I feel, the mixed feelings when becoming a mother. And so it carries on with some of the other words that people turn to. Robert Frost's words is who Dee turns to. He's listening in Northumberland. Good morning. She shares some of them here. Nature's first green is gold, her hardest hue to hold. Her early leaf's a flower, but only so an hour.

Then leaf subsides to leaf, so Eden sank to grief. So dawn goes down today, nothing gold can stay. And you can leave a big pause after poetry because it kind of has to sink in, doesn't it? It really does. For you, it started as well, I know, with a social media page called Ladies Pass It On. Yeah, that's right. Tell us. Yeah, so I tried to open a sort of page on the internet that women could come along to and have a nice safe chat about the things that we found difficult or we just wanted to laugh about. And it was going to be an online magazine at the beginning. And then I quickly realised that when I did write From the Heart, and it was anonymous back then, people liked it. It seemed to strike a chord and it

seemed to travel. So I started to do it a bit more and I got a bit braver. And then the pandemic came along and changed absolutely everything because we only had the internet. We only had words. You know, we were, we all came together on social media and said, what do we do? What do we think? Who's going to help us? And so because I had a little following at that point, I thought, well, I'm going to do what I can every day to bring hope and a bit of comfort, but also talk about the reality of what's going on and not dismiss it with sort of positivity. You have to go deep into it if you want to turn it around and that's when it all began to take off do you think people do go deep when they take things on the social

media because you know stuff's flying past you or can fly past you at such a rate and I even find that what the way I read the news I mean I fillet the news like yeah what I do for a living but but you you know I'm going between things. I sometimes take a step back after a stint on my phone or a device and think, what have I actually learned? What have I read? What did I take in? Do you think poetry on social media can be absorbed?

Absolutely. But as with all things, it's had to evolve to fit that brief. So the poetry of olden times where you could really, people who seek out poetry will take the time and sit down and absorb it and, you know, analyse it. But if you want to be a poet on social media,

you do have to be impactful and you do have to cut through the sort of, you know, the busyness of all the information that's being thrown at everybody? So the way that poetry is being written has definitely changed, the brevity of it and the sharpness and the directness, the straight to the pointness. There's not a lot. My words in particular are very simple. There's not a lot of confusion can be had around one of my poems. They say exactly what I want them to say to you or to whoever has got 10 seconds in their day to read it.

The book this time is Wild Hope, Healing Words to Find Light on Dark Days. Why hope as a theme? Hope is something that really fascinates me because what actually is hope? Does it exist? Is it in our imagination? Is it a thought process? Does it matter? that really fascinates me because what what actually is hope but does it exist is it you know is it in our imagination is it a thought process is it matter so I have become since the pandemic

that was I saw it as my job to provide hope at that time that was just self-appointed job of course I am hopes brother and so I started to become fascinated by what is it and if you look at people who are facing really extreme things in their life if you listen to what they say hope drips from every chapter you know you can see that there was a space where they could have hit rock bottom or they did hit rock bottom. But the thing that connects between that point and rising up again is hope. And so I'm just fascinated by what actually is that? How do you get it?

Can you imagine it? Can you pass it along? That kind of thing. It's complicated, isn't it? Yeah. Especially if you're trying to have hope in quite a hopeless situation. You can have a very difficult relationship. And hopelessness is a dangerous place to be. That, you know, last resort of hopelessness is a very vacuous, empty place that some people never come back out of.

So words really can be the difference between that perspective flip at the very right moment when hopelessness abounds. Words can be the hand to pull you back up. How do you do it without sounding really cheesy at times? I do sound cheesy. I'm really cheesy. Unashamedly so. Nobody's cheesier than I am. You know, it's not hallmark poetry, but it's also just people do enjoy simple, beautiful words that conjure up beautiful images and make them think of their beautiful memories. And so cheesiness is not a bad thing in life as long as you are not ignoring the reality behind the pain that got you in this place and in the first place, you've got to be real as well as cheesy. You've got a poem in the book, which I know you're going to share with us, called Rope Ladder.

And you also kindly agreed to read it about the power of poetry. About the power of poetry. Rope Ladder. I have seen a poem save a life. I have seen a handful of words grow legs and arms, run into a burning building and drag the lifeless out. You may see lines, but I, I see a rope ladder of letters leading up from rock bottom to a brighter day day I see a lighthouse, a lifeboat A helicopter that roams the mountainside looking for the lost I see a message from ancestors, a sign from above

I see hope, the thing with wings You may not consider poetry important But if you had seen a poem breathe life into empty lungs like I have you would look anew. Don Ashworth that is lovely thank you very much I know that you have a favourite yourself within here it's actually a passage rather than yeah a whole poem and I thought while we're in that space maybe we could go to that as well before you do it's called you it's called you and what was the the background to this before we it's really simple it actually came from another poem very quickly but the image that it conjures up when I first posted it I received three or four messages in 24 hours saying that was the difference

for me today that and one of the messages said, I stayed today. And once you get a message like that, you realise the impact that such a short pause, you know, a passage of words can have. And it's just about visualising something that you might never have thought of before. Shall we hear it? It's called You. If every single person who has liked you in your lifetime

were to light up on a map, it would create the most glitteringly beautiful network you could imagine. Throw in the strangers you've been kind to, the people you've made laugh or inspired along the way, and that star bright web of you would be an impressive sight to behold. You're so much more than you think you are. You have done so much more than you realise. You're trailing a bright pathway that you don't even know about. What a thing. What a thing indeed. Thank you for reading it. Thank you for allowing me to. I know that you do this on your social media feeds,

but there is something as well, which is why I will always love and have always loved radio. I think where I know people can see clips of this afterwards and we're in that age, but there will be a lot of people who will have just stopped, I imagine, to listen. And when it's just the voice, that's what I love about radio. It's so beautiful for spoken word and poetry

because it takes away all your other senses at that moment and you just connect completely with what your vision of the words would be in your head. And it's so powerful. I love it. And also, there will be people, Donna, who feel like you read that just to them. Yeah.

You know, it's a one-to-one media in that respect. Yeah, which is lovely. Thank you for letting me do it on National Poetry. It's such a delight. it's it's very good to have you here and we have got many messages coming in about the words that people live by as a result of our conversation the book's called wild hope and you've been listening to donna ashworth thank you very much thank you so much indeed um and some of you also getting in touch about uh you know when things are overwhelming as well i I mean, the words that someone says here. Have we got a name on this particular message?

Yes, Val. Sorry, I didn't see that. The words I hang on to when life feels overwhelming. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I should also say I asked you about whether the political words of the moment moved you yesterday the rhetoric of the prime minister and some of you also taking the opportunity to continue our conversation from yesterday just to reflect that I thought Rishi Sunak's speech was so sensible reads this message HS2 was always a bad idea and to spread the money to other transport links across the north makes sense no one can argue with banning in brackets sort of smoking or the way that we're dealing with that and selling tobacco. Shame alcohol isn't treated with the same disgust as it causes more misery for more people than smoking and particularly links to domestic violence. Let's hope he has more

radical plans and carries them out. No name on that, but a very different response to the particular words you heard on the political podium yesterday from Julia, who says, to Woman's Hour, regarding the Conservative Party conference I'm a Green Party voter so I must be one of those people who hold what the Home Secretary Suella Braverman calls luxury beliefs. I just want her to know that I'm not following this debate from my villa in Tuscany. Right now I'm wearing two warm cardigans as I try to avoid switching on any heating as long as possible. The Conservatives in one last desperate throw of the dice are trying to divide opinion on climate change. We need to vote them out as soon as possible. So two extremely different views

there on words in a different context, away from poetry, but to political prose. Keep your messages coming in, please. And the numbers you need to do that, as I said earlier, 84844 or get in touch on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now to a woman who has said making a film is harder than competing in the Olympics. She should know. Savannah Leaf is the London-born film director who started her career competing for Team GB in volleyball at the London 2012 Olympics. Good morning, Savannah. Why is it harder?

Well, I think the thing with me, and I don't think it would be necessarily harder for everyone but I I started playing sports at a really young age and I've always been very tall and athletic and so there's kind of like a natural um talent for me at a young age and that kind of carried through to me. And then, and then kind of competing in the Olympics was, was I was 18 years old, you know, and it was such a physical action. Yes, there's the mentality of kind of getting there. But there was it was such a physical action at such a young age. And then in terms of making a film, there's just like so much weight you have to carry everyone through with this idea or this creative vision that

sometimes seems crazy or you're not confident in it at some times. And you have to get this whole team and this whole financial aspect to it as well. And you have to carry them through this whole action. So for me, that was extremely difficult. You've managed it at the London Film Festival as well, no less. Congratulations. I should say a bit about the film, if I may, and you can say more, but it's set in California. It follows Gia, a young pregnant mother who is battling drug addiction, trying to regain custody of her two children in foster care while deciding what the future will be for her unborn child. Why was that the story for you that you wanted to be drawn towards? Yeah, so I initially wrote this story because I was kind of reflecting upon when I was 16 years old, my mother adopted my sister. And so I was

kind of reflecting on meeting her birth mother and what that was like for me at 16 years old. And that's kind of where the heart of the story was inspired by. And then from there, I did a documentary which kind of focused on five different women, some of which had their children in foster care system, and some of which had their children in foster care system and some of which had given their children up for adoption and it was kind of watching all of them. And so the film grew and it became an accumulation of me reflecting on all of these women

and the women that have kind of impacted me throughout my own life. And I know you were very keen to also tackle some of the stereotypes you feel. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was really important for me to kind of ask myself and the audience the question, is it possible to empathize or feel with or walk beside a mother who makes a really difficult decision at a really difficult time in her life? And, you know, audiences are so quick to judge, so quick to judge a black woman, so quick to judge a mother who has kids in the foster care system,

like whether or not they think she should be allowed to keep her kids. So for me, it was about really challenging the audience to walk beside her. And in that challenge that you sort of set, what are you hoping for people to come away from? You know, we were just hearing about poetry and how people turn to it at different times. Yeah. What are you hoping for? Well, I hope people are able to kind of be able to communicate with one another, to feel with the people that they walk beside every day. And I also hope that we can kind of break down some of these barriers

because, you know, a lot of these systems are so bureaucratic, it's impossible to get out of. And there's not much support for the women and the children at that. A lot of times they're given a couple hours visitation a week, and that's supposed to be their means to connect with their child. And so I think at the very least, being able to walk beside someone who might have a different life than your own or to feel heard if you're in that situation yourself it's it's a beautiful and really powerful film thank you so much really happy I could see it um you know and and people will be seeing it and how do you feel about that

because that's a whole other thing I mean with sport and being on a stage yeah it's very performative yeah whereas this is quite private to it yeah Yeah, I think filmmaking, I mean, that's the whole other thing is that filmmaking is so vulnerable, you know. You're putting your emotions, your feelings on the line and not saying sports isn't as well, but it's just a different way. And I think I never was able to express myself in that way through sports. And so now standing on the stage, you know, introing your film for the first standing on the stage, you know, introing your

film for the first time to family members, you know, it's very revealing. And oftentimes, I feel like I'm just standing up there naked or something. So I do feel terrified, but I'm also so excited because I think it's a story that is not like many stories out there. Yes. And I mean, again, I think people are loving the comparisons because there aren't that many people who've been Olympian and then the film side of things that you're doing. But, you know, the idea that that's perhaps more frightening and more revealing than, you know, competing at such a top global level. Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think also, let's be honest, I was 18. So I was, there's kind of like a fearlessness you have at that age,

where even though there's the stands of huge amounts of people, like I barely even, it was just a blur. And I was really focused on that moment. Whereas with filmmaking, you get up on the stage and people are asking you questions about your film. And people are sending you messages about what did you think about in this particular moment. And all of that is very interactive from an emotional standpoint. And it's a very powerful topic as well.

You've got a personal connection. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, for me me I'm just also at a different stage of my life you know yeah then then the volleyball side of things although that was such I mean the memories people have of that time you know even if they didn't get to go and see it live just watching on tv are glorious for us yeah no I think if I was going to play anywhere playing for the London London Olympics for Team GB

was probably the best stage you could ask for as an athlete As I said, you were born here. I was born here I sound American My voice has become more and more American the more years I've lived there but yeah

I was born here, I grew up in Vauxhall Yeah, in South London so it's a it was a coming home I imagine as well in 2012 and it was coming home in 2012 and it feels like a coming home right now with the film at London Film Festival well I I think you know that that transition would be would be interesting for anyone who's listening and thinking well maybe I'll go from sport to that but um do you also feel now you've actually made the film and you're establishing yourself, how do you feel about being a part of that community and getting better known and, you know, becoming someone who's a kind of player in that world,

you know, as a woman and as someone who's new to it? Yeah, I think, well, I really hope that other people can feel like they can kind of take that step into film because I think it is kind of terrifying. The idea of being a director, you have like one thing in your head, you know, like you don't have many images of what a director is in your head. And so for me, just the idea of that seems kind of impossible. But now, taking a step into that, I feel like there's just more and more opportunities for people like myself to share their stories that there wasn't in the past. And I think as difficult as it is, I really truly feel that this is like an incredible opportunity

to share stories that haven't been heard and and for you I suppose the with this film I mean you keep promoting it you go with it for a while but are you already and are you already working on the next yeah yeah I'm writing a couple scripts right now and I um I did like a art film that showed at the Hausenworth gallery in LA last year actually no not last year, a couple of months ago. What am I talking about? And then now I'm writing these scripts for the next feature. So yeah, I'm continuously just making more and more.

Yeah, well, people will, I'm sure, want to seek out more once they've seen this. It's lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here. I wish you the best of luck with it. What a great thing to London Olympics, London Film Festival. You're covering all the bases thank you for stopping by and talking to us this morning now imagine if the worst moment of your life ended up going viral on social media that's what happened to my next guest lacadia reynolds was walking through a park in south london on her way to a driving lesson when she was attacked by three dogs. The dog's

owner tried to intervene but the dogs injured her arm, legs and face. Incredibly a stranger saw this attack and filmed it happening rather than coming to help and then that footage was uploaded to social media where it has been viewed tens of thousands of times. I should also say at this point there have been quite a lot of stories of dog attacks in the press over the past few months. And of course, not all dogs are dangerous. And millions of women, we are talking on Women's Hour, own and love dogs. But I also know that many worry that they wouldn't know what to do if a dog did threaten or even attack them or their families. So Susie Carlich, I'll be talking to her shortly, the founder of Pretty Deadly Self-Defense, who trains women around the UK in techniques to

defend themselves from dog attacks. And I'll be talking to her. She joins us down the line from Berlin. I'll be talking to her shortly. But LaCadia Reynolds, first to you. Thank you for coming in. Good morning. Can you tell us from your perspective, because I think it's so important to hear your view, what happened? The incident on social media. We'll get to social media but just the incident for people who aren't aware of it so i was walking through the park on my way

to my driving lesson i was meeting my friend on the other side and at first i saw no dogs i'm not afraid of dogs so had i seen dogs i wouldn't have been bothered but i turned to my right when i was about halfway through and i saw an owner with three dogs and he had all three on the leash. I continued to walk and then eventually he let two of them go and they just ran around the park and then they eventually ran up to me. Then at first I just thought they were playful. Again I'm not scared of dogs so I hadn't seen them as a threat. I wasn't scared. It was more of my friend who was on the other side who's petrified of dogs. So I asked the owner if he could take them because I

was thinking about her and how she'd feel seeing me approach her with two dogs following me so I asked him if he could take his dogs but he didn't respond to me I asked him a few times he still didn't respond and then one of them jumped on me and then I still did nothing because again I wasn't scared because dogs jump on you all the time so I just turned and asked him again he still did nothing and then the dog jumped up and started biting me. Then the second one joined in. And then it went on from there. It was a sustained attack, wasn't it?

It carried on for a while. Yeah, a while. I'm very, very sorry about that because to talk about it must be hard as well. And you're living with the consequences of that. But what you didn't know at the time, which is I know something you feel passionately about and wanted to talk about here on Women's Hour was that you were also being filmed. Yes. And it's a kind of weird thing in

our world that you're being filmed when that person is watching and I suppose the instinct is to think why are they not coming to help but instead they're filming and then they upload it on the internet. When did you find out that that was online? I found out the next day when I was in hospital that it was on the internet. My friend told me. Okay, because I should say, in case people are concerned and they aren't aware of it, so you did have to have hospital treatment.

Yeah, I had to get plastic surgery on my lip and my arm. How are you now? I'm still in recovery. Okay. You found out then it was online. And did you see it or you were just told about it? I was told about it. So I actually went to a message, an Instagram page,

to ask them to take it down. I didn't tell them it was me because I didn't want anybody to know. And my friend and my sister, they also tried as well. But we didn't get a response. And then it just yeah kind of gave up how's that made you feel that being out there I was extremely disappointed because at first I thought okay the person I was already upset that it had been recorded but then I saw the positive in it that, I have evidence of what's happened to me.

So at first I was like, OK. But then find out that it was on social media, it made me question the person who recorded intentions. And what to do with that and how that is, because it's kind of another violation in itself, I imagine. I felt like it was an infringement of my privacy do you find that anyone can see that it's you I mean are you aware of that I know that your name is now out there with this story because you wanted to talk about what had happened and you've been brave to do so

but what's that been like I had people that I knew recognize my voice and message me and know the area so we're able to put two and two together i i should say you know as the bbc covering your story we haven't published the video um and so that's there's not a way of us pointing towards that that's not what i'm doing by talking to you i wanted to we wanted to give you the chance to talk about it yeah yourself and and how that feels um tiktok the social media platform has said they've now removed the video that we flagged to them and they say it violates their policies, its policies. The company says its guidelines

strictly prohibit sharing content that promotes violence. Meta, the owner of Instagram, have told this programme that the company is investigating the content that we flagged to them. So perhaps something will change there. Yeah. Which it sounds like you would like that.

Is there anything you want to say having now been you would like that and is there anything you want to say having now been filmed in this way or is there something you want people to think about after being filmed in that way um I felt as though there was a lot of assumptions that were made from the video for example like the location who it was certain people believe that they knew where it was which understandable because there's certain places in London that do look very similar so it was kind of like a little lesson for me just be careful what you read online because not everything is actually true a lot of people make assumptions and I felt as though people were a lot of people actually took the video and made articles without consulting me without talking to me so it was as though they were telling my story for me

which is why it's very important to have your voice here today yeah thank you for talking to me so it was as though they were telling my story for me which is why it's very important to have your voice here today yeah thank you for talking to us let me bring in Susie who can give some advice perhaps if we as I say you know plenty of dogs absolutely fine but if you are personally threatened by a dog Susie what do you tell people to do good morning good morning thank you for having me and look, I'm very sorry to hear about your experience. What do we do when we're threatened by dogs? If the dog, if there's still a distance, we actually want to stay still as much as possible. LaKadia talked about being in the park with her friend, and her friend was very afraid of dogs and she isn't. And she did the smart thing is that she sort of let the dogs see her first because a very calm person who's not afraid of dogs is more likely to calm aggressive dogs down. Unfortunately, that's not what happened in this case,

but it also sounds like those dogs were being goaded on a bit by their owner. When we are attacked by a dog, if the dog jumps on us, we can use our knees. Bringing your knees up in a sharp movement will help push the dog away. It will usually strike the dog in the dog's chest or the dog's belly. It will hurt the dog. And I know that we don't want to hurt dogs, but at the same time, you do also have a right to defend yourself. If the dog is knocks you down then the smartest thing for you to do is actually to go into a fetal position put your arms around your head not around your knees and make sure that your throat is protected. If the dog is particularly aggressive it is going to go for the throat and that's obviously the part that's most vulnerable

for you. Some important advice there and and you know something to heed although of course as you're pointing out you know each situation will be different I should also say the the owner of these particular dogs in this case it's not here to to respond but some thoughts there about what to do. Susie are you hearing from from women in particular that they are worried about this? Is this something you hear? It is something I hear. Women who are runners, sometimes runners will be chased by dogs, especially if they're running through neighborhoods where people don't have their dogs on a leash or they let the dogs out in the front yard or the front garden. Women who do solo travel also are concerned about stray dogs, dogs in different countries where people have a different cultural relationship to dogs, as well as women

who are traveling maybe on a solo hike or a hike with friends where stray dogs or even just off leash dogs can show up and pose a problem. Yes, so some of those scenarios. Susie Carlett, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you to you. Lacadia Reynolds, all the best to you. Thanks for having me. Stay in touch with us. And thank you very much for bringing your story and your words to us today.

And many words have come in that you live by. Thank you for those. And stay with us on Woman's Hour. I'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Have you ever wondered who you really are? It clicked in my mind suddenly. I was like, why have I never done this? I'm Jenny Kleeman, a writer and journalist. In my new series,

The Gift, from BBC Radio 4, I've been uncovering extraordinary truths that emerge when people take at-home DNA tests. He said, what do you know? You don't even know that your father's black. So I'm like, Jeff, we got him. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I go, we got him. Obviously it was a completely unintended consequence of a gift. Join me as I investigate what happens when genealogy, technology and identity collide. Listen to The Gift on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

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It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.