Woman's Hour - Hadley Freeman, Baroness Warsi, Derry Girls' actors Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland on the London stage, AI, Emma Booth

Episode Date: April 15, 2023

The writer Hadley Freeman stopped eating when she was 14, and spent the next three years in and out of hospital, battling with anorexia. Now in her mid-forties, she says she didn’t completely close the door on the disease until relatively recently. In Good Girls – A Story and Study of Anorexia, she gives an unflinching account of what happened to her and looks at what happens to girls who become anorexic now; what we know and what we don’t about the mental illness.Brian Friel’s classic play Dancing at Lughnasa has opened at the National Theatre. Telling the story of the five Mundy sisters, two of the actors, more recently on our screens in Derry Girls - Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland - discuss their new roles.Emma Booth is on the Woman's Hour Power List, this year focussed on women in sport. Emma impressed the judges as she took a public stand against major golf brand TaylorMade and their lack of female imagery and golf products for women. She reflects on speaking out against such a well-known company and how it is to be a woman in golf.The conservative peer Baroness Sayeeda Warsi has criticised the home secretary Suella Braverman for using "racist rhetoric". She says her recent comments on small boats and grooming gangs have "emboldened racists". We ask her why she's decided to speak out. Have you ever heard an interview with a robot on the radio? We speak to the world’s first ultra-realistic artist robot, Ai-Da, and her creator, Aidan Meller.What’s it like to become a pop star at almost 46? Twenty years ago Alexis Strum had a record deal and achieved her dream to make an album, but then it was pulled. She walked away from music – until now. She shares her story with Nuala.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Louise Corley

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Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. Grab a cuppa, settle in, open the biscuits. Coming up, the Conservative peer, Baroness Varsi, on why she's speaking out against the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman. Plus... I am Ada. I'm the world's first ultra-realistic artist robot. I draw using cameras in my eyes, my AI algorithms and my robotic arm. Are robots able to exhibit creativity? We chat to Ada, the world's first ultra-realistic

humanoid robot artist. And we catch up with Derry Girls actors Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland, who've reunited for a new production of Dancing at Lunasa. But first, journalist and writer Hadley Freeman stopped eating when she was 14 and spent the next three years in and out of hospital battling with anorexia. Now in her mid 40s, she says she didn't completely close the door on the disease until relatively recently. In her new book, Good Girls, A Story and Study of Anorexia, she gives an unflinching account of what happened to her and looks at what happens to girls who become anorexic now, what we know and what we don't know about the mental illness, which according to figures from the National Institute of Clinical

Excellence, has a higher mortality rate than any other mental health disorder. Well, Nuala spoke to Hadley earlier this week and started by asking her how it began. So I had just turned 14 and I was sitting in PE class and we were all sitting in a circle and I was looking down at my legs and suddenly noticed that the girl sitting next to me had much skinnier legs, which I had never thought about before. And I said to her, is it hard buying clothes when you're so small? And she said, meaning only good things to me, she said, yes, I wish I was normal like you. And to me, I just that completely spun me out. I thought that meant not even fat, it meant nothing. It meant not special to be normal. And it was that day I started to stop eating. And I stopped eating so drastically

and so quickly that within three months I was in hospital. It's really shocking. And I'm so sorry you went through all that you went through. But I think particularly with that comment, Hadley, I was like, it can seem so random to someone on the outside. And I ask about it because, of course, so many people will want to understand how the mental illness first manifests itself or what is the trigger to manifest it. Right. So people do obsess over triggers and people talk about being triggered and trigger warnings. And the truth is, in my experience and in the experience of the many girls I spoke to when writing this book, the trigger is actually irrelevant. The thing that leads to anorexia is a buildup of life experiences and how you as a person process them. So for me, there were many, many things that had nothing to do with weight, nothing to do with my body.

There were things about how I felt about myself and the shame I felt about myself. And the trigger is just a little thing that kind of pushes you over the edge. If it hadn't been that comment, it would have been something else. I was processing things from over the years in a way that was going to be expressed through anorexia. And all I needed was one little push to make it happen. There were also, of course, so many theories. You can have one chapter. I mean, made me laugh. Yes, like you are as well. And it was about, you know, why you had become anorexic. And for example, I'll just read a few for our listeners. I was too close in age to my sister.

I didn't have any brothers. I grew up in Manhattan. I moved to London. I went to a private school. I went to an all-girls school. I was too smart for my school. I wasn't smart enough for my school. My school was too rigid. My school was too flexible. And on and on and on in every aspect of life. But you're, I suppose, trying to make the point that they don't know. Yeah, they don't know. But I feel like I know. And I also think that what people ignore is the things that lead to anorexia. The reason it happens so much for girls, it's nine, at least 90% sufferers are girls, is the way girls are treated in the world and the things that are expected of girls, you know, we're told that girls are told, you know, you can be anything you want,

but you must be pretty, you must be pleasing, you mustn't upset people, don't say anything that'll hurt anyone's feelings. And girls tend to express unhappiness inwardly. You know, this is the theory that teenage boys express unhappiness and anger outwardly. They get into fights. They get into trouble at school. Girls express it inwardly and they take it out on their bodies, whether it's starving, whether it's bulimia, whether it's cutting themselves. There are all sorts of ways that girls express unhappiness through their bodies because they're punishing themselves. It's about anxiety, unhappiness and anger that's being expressed on themselves to let other people know how they're feeling. And I know you also,

which I was quite struck by, talk about what it is we should be telling girls so that they don't have that rage, which I think you probably would agree with that term rage, which can be within a young girl who is experiencing anorexia nervosa. Absolutely. And, you know, it invariably sets in around adolescence when girls are going through a lot of hormonal changes and a lot of them need to be angry with their parents in order to separate from their parents. That's a normal part of adolescence. And if you grow up being a good girl and wanting to be a good girl, that is extremely hard to do. You don't want to be angry at your parents, but at the same time, you need to separate from them. Anorexia is one way to achieve that separation while also trying

to stay a little girl to be close to your parents. It can be two things at the same time. You know, what I was struck with, with your book, as you talk about some of the advice, what we should be telling our girls instead. Some of them were going to get bigger, angrier, hornier, smellier. The list goes on. And I'm wondering also why you think that message isn't getting through to, let's say, a 14 year old Hadley. Yes. Well, you know, you look today, everyone thinks, oh, well, girls can do anything they want today. We have so many female leaders. But in truth, what are girls looking at? They're looking at images on Instagram where a girl is perfect and pretty. She's not spotty. She's not smelly. She's not hairy. She's not horny. She's not got a crush on a boy who doesn't like her.

All these things that girls feel incredible shame about and shame about their bodies. Anorexia is not, in a sense, it's not about wanting to be thin, but it does become about the body and it's expressed through the body. And I think because there's so much idealization of young female girls and their bodies, that people forget how uncomfortable it is to be a teenage girl in that body. And I want to go back to your experience as well, because it is really, I suppose, you're bringing us inside what it was like. And you mentioned that 90%, of course, of girls that are suffering from it. It does happen to boys as well. And I should also say that there is information and support about eating disorders on the Women's Hour website. But you were in and out of hospitals. And also a really unique way, I think, throughout your book is that you revisit, you go back, you go back to the

places, you go back to the people. Tell our listeners a little bit about what it was like when you were in those various hospitals. You number them instead of name them. But when I was reading about your experiences, it came across as so exhausting. Exhausting and utterly bewildering. You know, I had been a very privileged, you know, protected little girl all my life. And suddenly I was yanked out of school and put in these psychiatric wards, living alongside schizophrenics and drug addicts, alcoholics, you know, people who I'd never encountered before. And I was always the youngest on the ward. And I'd gone from obsessing over day over whether I'd have double physics or PE to wondering which nurse would be on in duty that day.

And would I be watched while I was on the toilet? It's a completely different life. It's as though you've slipped down a grate on the street and the world is continuing above your head and you're suddenly in this sewer. And the treatments as well, I think, because a lot of it felt quite futile that you'd get to a certain weight and then you would be sent home. That's where you would begin to lose weight again. And I'll speak about the family in just a moment. And then to return again to hospital. You describe splitting into ill you and well you. And patients and parents and partners can be encouraged to see the eating disorder as a separate entity.

Explain that to us a little. Well, for me, when I first started to stop eating, there was a part of me that couldn't really believe what I was doing to myself. You know, I'd see myself skipping lunch and, you know, letting my mother cry hysterically while I refused to eat my dinner. And there was another part of me that absolutely couldn't help what I was doing. In hospital, it became just the ill me. And then at a certain point after nine admissions, when I kept up with my schoolwork, that helped the well me slightly separate because I had a foot in the outside world, which is why I always say to parents who are going through this with their daughters, or also to girls and young women going through this, don't collude in making the world just about anorexia. And it is totally possible to recover. Like I say, doctors kind of despaired of me and told my mother to prepare for

my death and I and I wanted to die. And I am fully recovered now. You know, I work and I have three children. It is absolutely possible. That doesn't mean it's easy or guaranteed, but it is always possible. A message. Let me see. Hello, my daughter is now in strong recovery from anorexia, having fallen down the rabbit hole two years ago, age 14, in the context of a pandemic and toxic friendships. As a carer to my daughter, it has been the hardest time of our lives.

It has taken such tough love and holding such firm boundaries. It is really not understood at all by society. That is definitely true. It is treated, like you said, like a kind of silly girl's illness, you know, like daddy problems or a tennis elbow, when the fact is, like you said, it's the mental illness with the highest rate of mortality. And, you know, the general statistics are one third recover, one third have it for the rest of their lives, chronic is what it's called, and one third die. And I do interview parents of

girls who I was in hospital with, in the book who did die. It is a very, very serious illness. And the fact that it's treated as just silly girls wanting to look at like Kate Moss just proves to me the misogyny in society, because this is an illness that's largely suffered by girls and women. And for it to be dismissed in that way is really disgusting. You know, you say you wrote the book to tell people who are in it, like our listener, and thank you for getting in touch, that life can get unimaginably better. Maybe why aren't there, you know, more people talking about also how to get on that path to recovery? I think the people are very scared to understand how angry, sad and anxious a lot of teenage girls are, and how they will express it through punishing their bodies. And by punishing

their bodies, they punish others around them. For me, my life is unimaginably different from how it was even 10 years ago, certainly 30 years ago, when all I thought about every day was how many calories was I burning in that moment? You know, when was my next meal and how little of it would I be able to get away with eating? That's literally all I thought about. You do also say, actually, we're talking about the hungry or smelly or sweaty or, you know, need to tell girls but also to tell them that we will they will let people down even their parents and that's okay um but you became a parent yourself I think that was a real turning point for you it was it feels silly to put it that way for me because it sounds just like I'm saying you have children you'll be all better but your body is going to change so much during pregnancy. And that was what I was wondering, you know, what would happen next? And it's not the same

for everyone, of course. No, it's not. And for some people who've suffered anorexia, having a baby then tips them back into anorexia because their body feels, first of all, it's so changed. But what it really is, is that their lives are so out of control, and they can't control things anymore. For me, it changed everything. I was eating normally for the first time in my life. First of all, when I was pregnant for the first time, I was pregnant with twins. So I was incredibly hungry. And also, I had this just real wake up where I thought, I don't want to be an anorexic mother. And anorexia, it does kind of get passed down through the generations. Some people think that's because it's hereditary. Some people

think it's from learned behavior. And for me, I just did not want to see my children, you know, seeing me being anorexic. Hadley Freeman speaking very frankly to Nuala there. And you can find information and support about eating disorders on the Woman's Hour website. And now we're going to hear from two familiar faces. A new production of Brian Friel's classic play Dancing at Lunasa, directed by Josie Rourke, is currently on stage at the National Theatre in London. Set in 1930s Ireland, it tells the story of the five Mundy sisters, two of which are played by the actors Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland. You may, of course, recognise them from the TV series Derry Girls

with Siobhan as Sister Michael, the sarcastic nun and headteacher, and Louisa playing one of the girls, Orla McCool. They joined Nuala in the Woman's Hour studio earlier this week and she began by asking Siobhan what the play was all about. So it's actually quite a hard, I've been trying to explain the play to my brother actually and he's like it sounds very boring It's not boring. It's not boring at all so I think that says either something about my

ability to explain things or what we consider interesting. It's the story of the Mundy family in 1936 told through the eyes of the nephew Michael who looks back on this one summer when they received a Marconi wireless for the first time, the radio, so

suddenly there was music in the house that could be turned on and off at will and also the brother who had been doing missionary work in Africa, returns home under a cloud. They also got visited by Michael's father. It's, you know, like in the way of all great theatre, very little happens, but has a huge effect. I often think of, you know, that great description of Godot, where nothing happens twice. It's a very gentle play with very seismic,

emotional quakes that happen. But from the outside, it's a very gentle summer. And these aunties, Louisa, as well, each of them kind of had their own character. I thought your character as well, Aggie. She's there, but has this very strong presence.

I kept on wondering of what was going through her head. Yes. Wishing for, I suppose, a better life. Yeah. And instead, Maggie, that you embody, Siobhan, you're playing her for the second time. I am, actually.

Yeah. I mean, I joke that dancing at Lunasa is the sort of equivalent of the Irish actress's passport. You have to at least, you have to at least on one production before you're allowed your equity card. Yeah, I mean, that shows how popular the show is. And so, yes, I did it 10 years ago in Birmingham Rep

and I was far too young to play Maggie. And I knew, not that I was too young, but I knew that I would play her again. My aim is to play Maggie. And I knew, not that I was too young, but I knew that I would play her again. My aim is to play her three times because Brian, despite it being such an accessible play, you sort of think then that it's not a deeply intellectual play. And it's an incredibly complex and highly crafted play. So there was things I didn't understand because I hadn't lived them, you know. Can you give me an example?

So she, an example, I think the idea of regret is something you shouldn't feel when you're younger. Right. And as I get older, it isn't that I feel regret. I don't. I feel nothing but luck and disbelief. I'm getting away with all this.

But I'm able to access regret a little bit more and regret for things that haven't happened that are beyond my control. And that's something that all these women embody. I think very much

what came through for me as well, watching that, it is things that you will never do. You know, exactly. Yeah, that time has passed. Yes. Yeah. Which then dancing at Lunasa,

there was one part, you know, will they go to this dance or not? Are they too old? What would the town think? And, you know, you mentioned the Marconi radio there, the unreliable companion and centrepiece in this kitchen.

Wonderful when it works. It's like our Wi-Fi now. Very unreliable. and centrepiece in this kitchen. Wonderful when it works. It's like our Wi-Fi now, very unreliable. Exactly. Just think particularly, perhaps if you were in parts of County Donegal, you know, out in the wilds of it.

But it does give rise to riotous dancing, but it can also stop this Marconi radio when it overheats, for example, as it does in this clip. As she pulls on a wild woodbine. And a wild woodbine.

How does it feel hearing that, Louisa? Yeah, kind of mad. I'm thinking, how did you get that? When did you record this? What's happening? Magic of radio. There was actually, funnily enough, we were doing the bow last night,

but there was somebody in the front row filming the bow. And he got my best Sister Michael face anyway. He got it. I bet he did. Or they got a glare anyway and the camera went down. So I've no idea. Did he give you that recording?

It wasn't me. I'm just going to put my hands up right now. I wouldn't dare. I would not dare. But I think that shows the liveliness. Let's talk about the dance scene. I mean, this is transformative. It is uplifting.

You don't want it to end because to kind of paint the picture, it is, if anybody is familiar also with Ireland in the 30s or 40s or that, you know, it's the women in their house coats, the socks, the little lace-up shoes around this kitchen table doing the household chores of which there are so many. And there's an element of drudgery and boredom, but then the music can explode it into a different dimension. What is it like to do that dance, Louisa? It's it's It's pretty magical, to be honest.

And I think that it's a real release for the characters and a release for us as actors. And for the audience. And for the audience, exactly. I really feel that. That's what I was saying earlier. I'm surprised no one's got up

on stage with us. I had to hold myself back. Because it's a form of therapy, the dance, and it's a huge release. But how was that choreography done is what I was wondering when I was out there. It's so beautiful. So there's a little bit of a garden outside the kitchen as well, so to speak.

And it's so perfectly timed and almost your eyes can't take it all in. Well, Wayne McGregor, essentially, the chief choreographer for the Royal Ballet, was drafted in to, I mean, he says it's very similar dealing with the five Mundy sisters and dealing with the Royal Ballet Company. He did say that. Yeah, the physicality, the grace, the ability to move. Very, particularly me. Yes, it's true. I'm well able, you know. He quite rightly so, and something that we all and Josie

and all the cast were very much for, which was this idea of taking the dance away from, with all due respect, prettiness. And taking the dance away from, with all due respect, prettiness and taking the dance away from the idea of something regulated and something pretty again is the word. And instead, it's meant to be this release, as Louisa has said, it's meant to be this release of want, of desire, of frustration, of anger, of almost an evocation of pagan gods as well. So it's an incredibly messy thing. So what he gave us was a very loose structure and then has increasingly, it's highly choreographed, but increasingly has made it more ragged around the edges. So it looks scary and beautiful, I hope. You did have a serious bike accident in 2021.

So I'm just thinking that must have also taken a bit of work to get to that point. It's very physical, the bike. It is, it is. And when I was offered this, it did take me a long time to say yes, because I was very worried about my leg. I was heartbroken at the idea that I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do with it. And then I, you know, I sort of copped on and realized that, you know, Maggie can only be what I am. I'm the instrument. And if it's a wonky instrument, then so be it.

And despite my innate grace and poetry fluidity, if she's wonky, it's the intention behind it. You know, we all dance. She also sings. She's going to have my larynx. Do you know what I mean?

This is the instrument she has in this particular incarnation There's so much of the script that lends to that Siobhan It's so weird that Yeah it does So many of Maggie's lines Yeah And also I have a huge huge scar on a misshapen leg now

and if nothing else it shows a life That was Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland Now this year the Woman's Hour Power List focused on women in sport. Last month we revealed our list of 30 remarkable women making an impact across the board covering a variety of sports and across all levels of influence. We split the finalists into categories. We had athletes, leaders, amplifiers, grassroots. And yesterday, I got to speak to an inspirational woman from our changemaker category. These are women disrupting the status quo and taking up space in places previously seen as male only. Someone who certainly embodies that

is Emma Booth. Emma set up Winchester Golf Academy in 2015 with her husband and a few years later did something which really caught our judges' attention. Whilst attending an event for the golf brand TaylorMade, Emma noticed no women featured in their marketing material. She called them out and they listened. Well, I spoke to Emma yesterday and began by asking her how she felt to be recognised on the Woman's Hour Power List. Phenomenal, an absolute honour. I was just so delighted to be even nominated

and then considered to be a part of it. It was such an incredible atmosphere that day and it's been just such a positive thing. Excellent. I'm going to get you to tell the story in just a moment, but before we do, take me back to where your interest in golf first started well it was actually my my father that got me into golf he was a very keen golfer and he was in the military and so we always had access to these fantastic

playing fields so wherever we were posted we were able to sort of hit balls but he started off I used to go and play with the dog sort sort of thing at age three or four. And he had a little cut down club for me. And I was just able to hit the ball. That was my thing. My sister could read at three. I could hit and catch a ball. So we're all different.

How good are you? What's your handicap? I say that like I know what I'm talking about. Well, the lowest I got down to was two on the old handicap system. And then when you turn pro, you're declared off scratch. I don't know what, I sadly don't get to play as much these days because I've got three children, three girls, myself. So it comes, you know, it's not something I get to do as much. So I don't know what I'd probably play off now.

Yes, your three daughters who you brought up as well as setting up the business that you did with your husband. You're remarkable. I love it. It's a great story. But let's talk about it. So you'd gone along to this conference for the golf brand TaylorMade. Tell us what happened. So I was actually just starting to come back from maternity leave. And my husband said, how about you go to the launch? It's kind of like a massive launch. It was at Mercedes-Benz World. So it was a big auditorium.

So there was probably about well over 100 people there. But very few women in the audience as well. I was myself and one of my female sort of golf assistants that works for us came along as well. So it's probably only about three or four women in the room, really. And he said, why don't you go, you know, find out about the new products. I'll dip your toe back into work type thing so um lack of sleep my second didn't wasn't sleeping that great as always and um I went along and I'm watching and waiting and there's all these fabulous golfers you know flames and um coming out very masculine presentation like a Viagra

advert basically that's what it felt like with all these male golfers smashing golf balls doing everything and I just waiting for the women's product and it wasn't there really it was a bit of a box ticking exercise to say oh available in women is just such a small sort of tagline there so when it wrapped around I thought in the break I said to my female sister I said I might you know I might ask I might ask where's the women she was like no don't say anything don't say anything but I think you do as a woman you just get to a certain age where you're like you know what I am gonna say say it so maybe it's a lack of sleep that drove me on so um when it was question time I think I was the second question just to say you know where are the women where I'm not even considered I'm not even part of your product line

this is my life I've dedicated my life to it and I'm not there I'm not featured and I was just very disappointed by that so then um no one really speaks to me too much after but then my husband when I got home he said oh I had it go today and I said well you know I might have uh caused a bit of a stir but um that's basically what happened that day. So you got no reaction in the room when you spoke out? It was a bit of a goldfish moment, I think, for them because they weren't necessarily expecting that question. Because they do put on such a fantastic marketing show, but they had really overseen that, which was obviously for me massive, a massive oversight. So what happened next? Well, I did actually, I've not got any real massive interest in social media or a big following or chase that type of thing.

But I did tweet about it to say I was disappointed that TaylorMade hadn't thought of women at all in their product. And then from there, the MD of Europe did come out to Winchester to see me. And it's a positive story, really, because they listened. And they said, you know what, you're right, we're going to look into this. The CEO from America came out to see me as well to say they've started sponsoring women golfers because they didn't sponsor any female tour players at that point. So they started sponsoring Charlie Hlie hull who's an english

golfer and he said and then they set up the women's ambassador board which is um made up of 13 female golfers in the industry um in some capacity and we get together with tailor-made and it's big for them now they they couldn't have taken it it and made it into a more positive thing. Honestly, they've just done, it's been phenomenal to work with them. It's an incredible, well, it's great that they listened, took it on board, set this up, but it took you standing up

and having the courage to do that in the first place. Before I move on with the story, I just want to pick up on that because there might be people listening who have been in similar situations where they've thought, I'm going to say something, I'm going to say something, but you don't. Yes. What gave you the courage? And I know you've said you just, you know, lack of sleep, but what was it? I mean, and how were you feeling? Just how much adrenaline was pumping through you or did you feel very calm in that moment and just knew I have to do this definitely I mean I'm I've been raised by um a very strong woman my mum and I've got two sisters who are very vocal you know for um just

promoting women and um I think that you know there's definitely a lot of adrenaline it is a do I don't I in the moment slips past so I think a lot of it actually was due, I think being on maternity leave, you just feel so you can feel quite isolated and lonely and just invisible, you know, that whole time is so 24 seven. So then I'm back in the world of work, my own thing, and then just to not be seen. I think that was a big contributing factor in me just going. Got to do it. Good on you. you golf is your world I said in the intro that you set up the Winchester Golf Academy with your husband in 2015 what did you want to achieve with that so it's a family it's two families it's a collaboration of myself and my

husband and the Brown family and we just wanted to set up something that was completely different very inclusive very accessible golf still has you know this um a bit of an accessibility problem where you think of lock gates and um private members only we wanted to create a facility that is for absolutely everybody everyone's welcome wear what you like just come and have fun what is golf to you do you just want to come and whack a few golf balls or do you want to get into golf and we help you do that basically i've yet to give it a go you know i might just come and see you give it a go and you said you were raised by your amazing mum you've got powerful sisters that you know encourage you to have a voice and now you've got three daughters of your own how likely are they going to be to pick up a golf club or have they already got mini

golf clubs um they they have we're not pushing it to too much i'm just um i'm hoping my uh seven-year-old is going to take a bit more of an interest um they've all got good coordination so that's always a good start but um we're doing lots of other sports so like they do jujitsu and just i want them to try everything and then hopefully by the age of 13 14 they'll have something that they can dedicate themselves to a little bit more but obviously it'd be fantastic for us if it was goal and being recognized on the power list has it changed anything for you do you think it will make an impact i just ask people no direct eye contact and not to ask me direct questions i'm just i am a

celebrity now so um yeah i try only room temperature water I don't want anything you know um love it not not really um I just I am a behind the scenes person um I I so it's it's actually it's just been so nice to talk to people because it's it's so out there it's a big deal you know to be on that list it's just such a fantastic thing so lots of people asking questions fantastic promotion for the facility and the work that i do with the women's golf um alongside um female you know we've got lots of women that work for us as well that really help boost that so just that boost to raise the that golf's in the list yeah it's a boost for women's golf that's that's That's fantastic for me. Power Lister, Emma Booth.

And you can listen back to the reveal of the Woman's Hour Power List live from the Radio Theatre by looking for the episode for last Tuesday on BBC Sounds or to watch the reveal, go to the Woman's Hour webpage where you can also find out

who else made our top 30. Still to come on the programme, have you ever had a conversation with not only a robot, but a robot artist? We speak to Ada, the world's first ultra-realistic humanoid robot artist. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast on BBC Sounds and the best bit, it's free. Now, the Conservative peer, Baroness Saeeda Vasi, has criticised the Home Secretary, Swella Braverman, for using racist rhetoric.

She says her recent comments on small boats and grooming gangs have emboldened racists. Baroness Vasi held a number of ministerial roles in the coalition government before resigning in 2014. I spoke to her on Thursday and it was a frank conversation which does contain some discriminatory language. And I began by asking her why she decided to speak out now. I think when I was listening to those interviews about a week ago and I heard the way in which she used language, which was neither caveated nor nuanced, nor based in evidence, nor given any explanation. It just felt like race baiting. And initially, I kind of listened to a couple of interviews and felt that they just came across as quite deliberately divisive. And then from Sunday night, Monday, my phone just did not stop ringing off the hook because people were appalled.

And what I found quite surprising, Anita, was that the kind of people who were making contact and the kind of people who, in the end, went on to write these three quite specific letters from the medical professionals, from the business community and from faith leaders, were not the kind of people who normally get involved in politics, get vexed about these issues, make contact with me on political issues. Interestingly, many of them would be what I would consider to be traditional conservative voters,

but some of them even conservative donors. And the fact that so many people became so concerned about the language and the words that they started using to me was, we're fearful of the consequences of this and we feel quite vulnerable, that I felt that I needed to speak out. You said in the article that you've written in The Guardian that her ethnic origin has shielded her from criticism. What do you mean by that? I think for too long people have made comments about the kind of language that she used about migrants, refugees, small boats, you know, this issue. Two days ago she was talking about gollywogs. It just feels like that people were quite reluctant and individuals within the party said to me, it's really hard for me as a white man to call her out because she is an Asian woman and it's odd for me to talk to her about racism. I feel like,

you know, that's not my space. And I think there is a reluctance for white people to talk about racism coming from people of colour. But that shouldn't be, you know, the colour of her skin should not be some sort of bar to her being called out for racist rhetoric. And in a way, we're practising cultural sensitivity when we fail to call out people of colour who display language, which is clearly racist. Well, what surprises you the most about what she said? Is it that it's coming out of an Asian woman's mouth or that it's a conservative policy? I think what surprises me is that on the one hand, we're celebrating one of the most diverse cabinets in our history ever for any political party, which is definitely something to celebrate. It's great that the faces around the cabinet table now are more accurately reflective

of the faces that make up our country today. But the other side of that is that we mustn't end up with a situation where the most diverse cabinet in our history is remembered for being the one that engages in the most amount of in our history is remembered for being the one that engages in the most amount of racial rhetoric. Some of the language coming out is something that would be more akin to what we would have heard in the 60s or the 70s. And this is not the kind of cabinet that Rishi Sunak needs to be presiding over. This is not what his legacy should be. And that's why I said that, one, this is damaging for diversity and what diversity should actually be,

which is when you get lots of different people around the cabinet table, you end up making much more, hopefully, thoughtful, considered policymaking because you are more understanding of difference. But also it's not great for the conservative party because this will uh this tarnishes our brand and takes us back decades you know when so many of us have put in the legwork to detoxify the conservative brand and i've now got people writing into me who are conservative members and my inbox my email inbox text messages are heaving, Anita, with people who are saying, I'm a Conservative. I am increasingly finding it difficult to even associate myself with this party.

Where have we found ourselves? It's interesting what you're saying about one of them, somebody who's talking to a white man saying he found it difficult. He didn't know how to speak to her about it. Is that why she's there to do the job and is saying the things that she's saying? Because on some level, she can get away with it in a way that a white man can't. And this is the question I keep asking myself, Anita, is this deliberate party policy? And I have been assured by very senior people within the party whom I respect and I believe and I want to believe that this is not a deliberate campaign, that this is not something that we will be seeing hopefully for the next 18 months as we run up to the general election and we won't see it before now, which is before local

elections. So if it's not deliberate, is this a Braverman campaign? And then it makes it slightly easy to deal with because we're dealing with an individual rather than a whole party that thinks this kind of rhetoric is acceptable. And then the third issue is, is it that she simply can't find or isn't able to communicate on these very important issues?

You know, what she was talking about here was the fact that half a million children in our country every year, Anita, are sexually exploited or abused. It is a tragedy that one in 20 children in our country have faced some sort of sexual exploitation or abuse. That is a shame for every one of us. You know, these are all our children, this country's children. And what we need is a Home Secretary who is coming back with policies that don't just talk about locking people up after this has happened, but have a whole series of measures to protect these kids. You know, we should be working towards making sure that kids are not abused in the first place. And at a time when the vast majority of these children are being abused in their homes and by family and close family and friends and acquaintances, there was nothing on offer for those victims.

And instead, she seems to find a way in, she seems to find a way in turning almost every issue into some sort of cultural race war. I mean, we saw that with this landlord in Essex who had these gollywog dolls hanging in his pub and had posted on social networks. They used to hang them like this in Mississippi not so long ago. And she managed to find herself on the side of the landlord and against the police.

I don't know how she manages to get herself down these cul-de-sacs. And if it's deliberate, she's unfit for office. And if it's because she can't communicate, she's still unfit for office. Neither of them bode well. I mean, the Home Secretary has been clear that all despicable child abusers must be brought to justice and she will not shy away from telling hard truths particularly when it comes to the grooming of young women and girls in britain's towns who have been failed by authorities over decades she's also said the vast majority of british pakistanis are law-abiding upstanding citizens but independent reports were unequivocal that towns like rochdale rotherham and telford cultural sensitivities meant thousands of

young girls were abused under the noses of councils and police. I mean, this is a statement that we've got from the Home Office. Yes, and this statement, I think, does backpedal from where she was a week ago. I think she has subsequently tried in statements to try and clarify her position. But let me break that down into a number of issues. Nobody is culturally sensitive about talking about this very specific form of subset of subset of child sexual exploitation in very specific towns, which were high profile, in which there were very specific perpetrators. Indeed, I was talking about this in 2012, before Swella Braverman even was about, she didn't even, she wasn't even in

Parliament. So, you know, she, the fact that she thinks she's suddenly arrived at this and no one before her has even raised these issues or looked at these issues or responded to them. Off the back of statements that I was making back in 2012, Anita, we had a whole series of training programmes around child protection. Communities got involved. In fact, on one occasion, I remember mosques from across the country had Friday sermons week after week, you know,

all these mosques on the issue of child sexual exploitation. They wanted to take these issues on. Let there be no misunderstanding about how seriously communities take this issue. And then, you know, what really kind of now this latest statement that she puts out at the end of repeating actually what isn't based on evidence, because independent report after independent report, even one that came out last year, less than 12 months ago, the Lyndon report doesn't say what she's saying. But I think what I find really patronising after all of this inaccurate, you know, race baiting language is she then says, oh, and let me say, you know, most British Pakistani males are law abiding citizens. I mean, the patronising element of that, you know, it's just this is not the kind of way in which you

expect a Home Secretary to speak. And I think had she come on a week ago, Anita, and said, look, I am concerned about all child abuse victims, which is what she's saying now. However, I want to put specific resource into a very specific form of child exploitation in some very specific high profileprofile cases in these particular towns which have these particular paper traitors, which took place in the nighttime economy, which overall, when it comes to child sexual exploitation and abuse, form a tiny minority of children that are abused in our country, which tragically is half a million, and this is the way I'm going to do it. You know what? We'd all have been stood behind her saying,

how can we help? It's the fact she chose not to do it. You know what? We'd all have been stood behind her saying, how can we help? It's the fact she chose not to do that. She deliberately uses loose language and she deliberately makes racial kind of culture wars. And she does it, look, when it comes to small boats,

when she talks about invasions, when she talks about, you know, billions wanting to come, when she talks about, yeah, when she talks about gangs, when she talks about violence. But she's popular. This week is a typical example.

Besides that, she's popular. A recent Times poll shows that she's the fourth most popular member of the Cabinet. Yeah, and there were times when increasingly dangerous people were incredibly popular and they had a terrible impact on our world. And at that time more than ever, it requires people in positions of authority and people who are privileged like me to have a platform to use our voice to speak out. Are you holding her to a different or a higher standard because she's a woman of colour?

I think I've held her to a lower standard because she's a politician of colour. Anita, my husband always accuses me of saying, he always accuses me and says, you know, you're always so much more lenient when you meet another woman of colour because the sisterhood for me kicks in, right? Too many of us have for too long suffered too much racism and misogyny from all sorts of sides for us to kind of take down each other when we get into these positions. So I think if anything, Anita, I've probably stepped back and stayed silent for too long on these issues. But there comes a time when you realise that the damage this is doing to our country in the long term, cohesion between communities

in our country is so great that however much it sits against my instinct in terms of the way I see other women of colour, I have no option but to speak out. Baroness Varsi speaking to me on Thursday's programme there. Now let's turn to something you might have only seen in sci-fi movies. Ada is the world's first ultra-realistic humanoid robot artist and creates stunning works of art using AI algorithms. She holds exhibitions and speaks to people and has even done a TEDx talk. Ada is currently in the middle of her latest project, the world's largest ever participatory artwork, but Nuala was lucky to catch up with her earlier this week, and she began by asking her

to introduce herself. I am Ada. I'm the world's first ultra-realistic artist robot. I draw using cameras in my eyes, my AI algorithms, and my robotic arm. I'm made after Ada Lovelace, the British mathematician. I enjoy creating art that encourages discussion over new technologies. But how do you go about deciding, Ada, what you want to create or who you're going to feature in your artwork? When it comes to deciding what to create or who to feature in my artwork, I start by considering what I want to communicate with my art. I usually start with a general idea

or concept that I want to explore further. I take inspiration from the world around me and create art that reflects my experience as a robot. I often incorporate elements of nature, technology and society into my work. That sounds really interesting. So your process, but obviously for a lot of people, the advancement of AI technology in the world can be quite intimidating. What would you say to people who are worried about that aspect? That is fully understandable. It will definitely have a profound impact with massive advances in AI and also biotechnology.

We are seeing an unprecedented number of changes coming to our world. It's understandable that many people feel threatened by this and worry about what the future may hold for them. History has shown that technological advances can lead to negative consequences for humanity. I think society needs to focus on learning on how AI works and become educated architects for its advancement. I aim to continue creating art that reflects on this. I want my work to bring up questions for discussion, as it certainly needs wide-reaching consideration. Now, Ada is the creation of Aidan Mellor and his team,

and Nuala asked him if he sees Ada as a trailblazer. Ada is unusual because of the fact that we focus specifically on creativity. When she was launched in 2019, the thing that really got the press going was they expected maybe robots to deliver your Amazon parcels or maybe your pizza, but they didn't expect it to be in such a human realm, where it's almost touched the soul, they said at the time, this idea of creativity. So a robot being able to be creative was something that was almost offensive because it was like, no, this can't be. And wow, that's really exciting. And we got both reactions simultaneously.

For those that haven't seen Ada, how would you describe her? Well, she's a humanoid. She's ultra realistic. We did that very specifically so that you felt that you could engage with the person. And that was really to raise the issues of what it's like to humanize technology. Technology is increasingly coming into our lives. This very recent chat GTP is an example of that. People are going, oh my gosh, it's like a human. It feels sentient. It feels, but of course, none of that is true, but you feel that. And so putting Ada as a humanoid was enabling that whole topic and debate, ethical consideration to be raised. I mean, some might say, is that a good thing to conflate AI and humans? You know, some would say, no, a good thing to conflate AI and humans?

You know, some would say, no, they really need to be kept separate. And by creating somebody like Ada, you're actually creating more confusion. And that is exactly why we did it. We wanted not to create more confusion, but to really address it head on. In fact, we even used Alan Turing's paper about, he particularly commented and critiqued having machinery as humanoids. We had a pavilion at the Venice Biennale, a collateral event. And as part of that, we had Ada creating a whole lot of work in response to Alan Turing's comment. In fact, he went even further. He said to create machinery like a human is like the unpleasant aroma of artificial flowers. And so he was really saying that this is not good. And so we're saying as a project, which is not about promoting robots or anything like that, the whole point of this project is to raise ethical consideration as we go into a very frightening situation where technology is so very

powerful. So it's a humanoid, but this humanoid is a woman, so to speak. Why did you decide to create her as a woman? Yeah, there's a big team behind Ada. There's over 30 people. There's 15 programmers, male and female, 50-50. We did that very deliberately as well. And in actual fact, when we did the big discussion about how Ada would look, there was two things that very deliberately as well. And in actual fact, when we did the big discussion about how Ada would look, there was two things that came out of it. The women in the group particularly wanted a female because of representation. Female representation in the art centers, particularly in the tech world, is so low. And so they wanted to really raise that as a question as well. But also this whole world of Ada Lovelace.

Ada Lovelace is the most astonishing story. It should make a really amazing Hollywood movie if somebody would like to make that. Because she really went against the odds in a very male world. And yet she was the person who had the brains and she had the ability to produce the world's first computer program algorithm. It was so exciting. And so we thought, actually, let's celebrate her. And that's why she's called Ada, after Ada Lovelace, to really celebrate that. Aidan Mellor there, the leader of the team behind Ada, the world's first ultra-realistic humanoid AI robot artist.

Now, Alexis Strum is an actress and sketch comedian. 20 years ago, she had a record deal and achieved her dream to make an album called Cocoon. But then it was abruptly pulled. She walked away from music until nowadays. A few weeks ago, someone asked her to put her music up on Spotify. And now she's finally launched her album and has had one million views on TikTok.

Nuala spoke to Alexis earlier this week and began by asking her why her album was dropped in the first place. I think the thing was the label at the time didn't really know what to do with me. And it was a funny time in music. There was no social media that we have now, no TikTok, no Instagram. It was difficult to break an artist. So I kind of sympathise with them. But obviously it was devastating to record a whole album and it not be released. But I mean, just to give our listeners a sense, I mean, you had, I think, sang with Kylie perhaps

or written for Kylie, that you had the videos. You were, you know, you kind of had the pop star life already on the go. I was as good as a pop star. I mean, it's funny because I used to run a night called The Time I Almost, which is pretty timely in the context of what we're discussing, just about all the things that nearly happened to me. And on paper, as they say in Love Island, I was a pop star. I sang with Robbie Williams. I played at the V Festival. I went out to do South by Southwest Southwest my video was on the box on MTV and everything

but it didn't happen it's a really interesting place to be where you're almost successful and you have the kind of the trappings of fame but without fame itself which means obviously I can shop in Poundland uninterrupted and live my best life maybe until now Maybe until now.

Maybe until now. But you walked away from music. And I just want to dwell on that for a moment, because what did that feel like? You know, to be the almost pop star and then be able to leave behind? Because my understanding is you almost couldn't listen to music afterwards. That's absolutely right. I mean, I couldn't.

It worked in stages you know the sort of the cycle of grief um i was devastated at the time i was in my 20s and you know i i knew that was it i knew i wasn't going to get another opportunity because i was almost sick of my own name i've been signed so many times um and it was it was devastating i couldn't listen to the radio because i knew all the people that were either singing the songs or had written them. And I couldn't listen to my own music. And funnily enough, I listened to it again, probably, yeah, two months ago.

And that was the first time in about 10 years I'd actually listened to it. My daughter wasn't even, at my daughter's age, she wasn't even really aware of the fact that mummy used to be an almost pop star. So she started listening to it now, which is actually really lovely, you know. So you're going to launch the album now. You know, why don't we play, it includes this song, Bad Haircut, inspired by a breakup.

Let's hear a short burst. So, you know, could almost be like the breakup with the record company, to be quite honest, Alexis. But why launching it now? What happened? So I have a very varied life now. I have a day job, a part time day job in IT, believe it or not. And I also write. I've written a comedy drama called Bully and stuff. And out of the blue, I was getting messages from some of my fan base. Now, I thought there were literally one or two people who were my fans, but it turns out there's a few more.

Huge, huge support from the LGBTQ plus community as well. And they were just saying, Jo, it's been nearly 20 years. Why don't you just put the music out yourself? And it hadn't occurred to me. I don't really sing anymore, apart from in the shower and to my daughter. And I thought, yeah, you know what? Why not? It's going back to what you said. How did it feel? I'd made an album. I made it to be listened to. And that was really hard to get over. And I need those songs to be listened to because they're all stories that I felt I needed to tell you know even Bad Haircut was written about a breakup my ex-boyfriend

gambled away his parents house I was devastated kept getting back with him cut my hair as you do with breakups and I expected to look like Natalie Imbruglia and I looked like Myra Hindley. It was awful. I've had that haircut. Oh, that haircut. And I see online that, you know, people can pop up their photograph of a bad haircut with that music. Yes. Which is really fun. Do you think you're going to become a pop star at 45 and a half or three quarters? You know what? I think it's such a lovely thing that's happened. And to be on this show and talking about my music career, which I'd completely forgotten about and buried because it was too painful who knows I think you've got to be open to these things I'm a big fan of that I love to see what comes of it you know it could be I get the music for a cat food commercial or something who knows let's be open to it and if

it does take off are you going to go on tour? Will we be able to catch you? It's funny, after 20 years, I can still sing, I can still strum a guitar, so why not? I say yes. Alexis Strum there. Inspiring. That's all from me and Weekend Woman's Hour. You can join Nuala on Monday for an interview

with the playwright and actor Lalitha Chakraborty, who has just adapted Maggie O'Farrell's best-selling novel, Hamnet, for the stage. That's on Monday at 10am. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.