Woman's Hour - Hadley Freeman, Latest in Iran, Rom Coms

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

The writer Hadley Freeman stopped eating when she was 14, and spent the next three years in and out of hospital, battling with anorexia. Now in her mid-forties, she says she didn’t completely close the door on the disease until relatively recently. In Good Girls – A Story and Study of Anorexia, she gives an unflinching account of what happened to her and looks at what happens to girls who become anorexic now; what we know and what we don’t about the mental illness. Did you know there are 36 new romantic comedy films coming out this year? From big blockbusters like Your Place or Mine featuring Reece Witherspoon and Ashton Kutcher to smaller budget hits like Rye Lane. So, are we having a rom com revival? We speak to film director Elizabeth Sankey, whose film Romantic Comedy looked at the history of the genre, and TV and film critic Rhianna Dhillon.The Iranian police force have said that they plan to use smart technology in public places to identify and then penalise women who violate the country’s strict Islamic dress code. This comes a week after a video on social media showed a man throwing yoghurt over two women for not wearing a hijab. Nuala is joined by Faranak Amidi, the BBC’s Near East Women's Affairs correspondent to discuss. Alexis Strum is an actress and sketch comedian. Twenty years ago she had a record deal and achieved her dream to make an album, but then it was pulled. She walked away from music – until now. A few weeks ago someone asked her to put her music up on Spotify and now she has finally launched her album including the song - Bad Haircut – which was inspired by a breakup, and has had 1 million views on TikTok. She joins Nuala to discuss becoming a pop star at nearly 46.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Good to have your company. Well, we have the journalist Hadley Freeman on the programme in just a moment. Her new book is Good Girls and it's her story of anorexia nervosa, but also a study of the illness. So we're going to be talking about that in great detail. It's compelling, heartbreaking at times, though with a strong undercurrent of hope.

And here's just a few of the so many lines in this book that struck me. When mothers ask me for advice on what to do with their suddenly self-starving daughter, I always say the same thing. Get professional help as soon as you can and don't become her caregiver. Well, for those of you listening who may be in that position of caregiver, no doubt you'll wonder how. We'll hear why Hadley stands by that advice and also what she thinks we should be telling teenage girls who are growing up now.

If you'd like to share your experience of the illness, you can text the programme. That number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And also today on Woman's Hour, becoming a pop star at 46. We're going to be speaking to Alexis Strum.

She was set for pop stardom. That was 20 years ago. But then it all fell apart. But it looks like now her musical career could be coming back. It is part of our series on when rejection is turned around. Yes, even a couple of decades later. Also, to the number 36. That's how many rom-coms will be released this year. So what's behind the resurgence of the genre?

That has been much maligned at times, let's be honest? But was that criticism fair? Well, one of my guests says that it is the only category of film that's made specifically for women. We're going to chat about that. Also, why they are back now and what can we expect this time round. Plus, the Iranian government has installed new measures to crack down on women not

wearing the hijab. We'll talk about the impact of those measures, if any, all coming up. But first, let me turn to the journalist and writer Hadley Freeman. She stopped eating when she was 14 and spent the next three years in and out of hospital battling with anorexia nervosa. Now in her mid-40s, she said she didn't completely close the door on the disease until relatively recently. And in her book, Good Girls, a story and study of anorexia, she gives an unflinching account of what happened to her and also looks at what happens to girls who become anorexic now. What we know, what we don't know about the mental illness, which according to

figures from the National Institute of Clinical Excellence, has a higher mortality rate than any other mental disorder. Welcome, Hadley. Hi, thanks for having me on. Why did you decide to tell this story now? Well, last September, it was 30 years since my first hospitalisation. So it's been quite a long time. And I'm now of an age when a lot of my friends have teenage daughters. And I'd sort of blithely thought that maybe anorexia had gone the way of analog, you know, and people weren't that interested in it anymore. But increasingly, I was getting calls from my friends asking what to do with their teenage daughters. And, you know, they've these sort of embarrassed inquiries saying, you know, sorry to bother you. Hope this doesn't bring up bad memories. But I just wondered

if you had any advice. And I thought, actually, you know what, maybe this experience that I had could be useful to other people. It wouldn't just be me narcissistically obsessing over myself. Maybe I have a perspective that could help some people. Well, let's talk about that story. And I mentioned 14. You identified a trigger. And I know triggers can be controversial in lots of ways about what do they really down at my legs and suddenly noticed that the girl sitting next to me had much skinnier legs, which I had never thought about before. And I said to her, is it hard buying clothes when you're so small? And she said, meaning only good things to me. She said, yes, I wish I was normal like you. And to me, I just, that completely spun me out. I thought that meant not even fat. It meant nothing. It meant not special to be normal.

And it was that day I started to stop eating and I stopped eating so drastically and so quickly that within three months I was in hospital. It's really shocking. And I'm so sorry you went through all that you went through. But I think particularly with that comment, Hadley, I was like, it can seem so random to someone on the outside. And I ask about it because, of course, so many people will want to understand how the mental illness first manifests itself or what is the trigger to manifest it. Right. So people do obsess over triggers and people talk about being triggered and trigger warnings. And the truth is, in my experience and in the experience of the many girls I spoke to when writing this book, the trigger is actually irrelevant. The thing that leads to anorexia is a buildup of life experiences and how you as a person process them. So for me,

there were many, many things that had nothing to do with weight, nothing to do with my body. There were things about how I felt about myself and the shame I felt about myself. And the trigger is just a little thing that kind of pushes you over the edge. If it hadn't been that comment, it would have been something else. I was processing things from over the years in a way that was going to be expressed through anorexia, and all I needed was one little push to make it happen.

There were also, of course, so many theories. You can have one chapter. I mean, it made me laugh, yes, like you are as well. And it was about, you know, why you had become anorexic. And for example, I'll just read a few for our listeners. I was too close in age to my sister. I didn't have any brothers. I grew up in Manhattan. I moved to London. I went to a private school. I went to an all-girls school. I was too smart for my school. I wasn't smart enough for my school. My school was too rigid. My school was too flexible. and on and on and on in every aspect of life. But you're, I suppose, trying to make the point that they don't know. Yeah, they don't know. But I feel like I know. And I also think that what people ignore is the things that lead to anorexia. The reason it happens so much for girls, it's nine, at least 90 percent sufferers are girls, is the way girls are treated in the world and the things that are expected of girls. You know, we're told that girls are told, you know, you can be anything you want,

but you must be pretty, you must be pleasing, you mustn't upset people. Don't say anything that will hurt anyone's feelings. And girls tend to express unhappiness inwardly. You know, this is the theory that teenage boys express unhappiness and anger outwardly. They get into fights, they get into trouble at school. Girls express it inwardly and they take it out on their bodies, whether it's starving, whether it's bulimia, whether it's cutting themselves. There are all sorts of ways that girls express unhappiness through their bodies because they're punishing themselves. Because they're told from a young age they shouldn't be angry.

They shouldn't be unhappy. Cheer up. Stop crying. And so they take it out on themselves. And that is really what anorexia is about. It's about anxiety, unhappiness and anger that's being expressed on themselves to let other people know how they're feeling. But so much, I think, of society still sees it as a desire to be very thin and to not be eating. But you talk about it actually as a desire to look

ill. Yes, yes. I think this is something that I don't really understand why people find this so hard to understand. You know, anorexics aren't stupid. They're mentally ill. They know that supermodels eat more than, you know, 200 calories a day or whatever it is. They want to look ill because they're telling people they're unhappy, they're angry, they're anxious without having to articulate it. Because articulating it is very hard for a lot of girls and women still. And I know you also, which I was quite struck by, talk about what it is we should be telling girls so that they don't have that rage, which I think you probably would agree with that term,

which can be within a young girl who is experiencing anorexia nervosa. Absolutely. And it invariably sets in around adolescence when girls are going through a lot of hormonal changes and a lot of them need to be angry with their parents in order to separate from their parents. That's a normal part of adolescence. And if you grow up being a good girl and wanting to be a good girl, that is extremely hard to do. You don't want to be angry at your parents, but at the same time, you need

to separate from them. Anorexia is one way to achieve that separation while also trying to stay a little girl to be close to your parents. It can be two things at the same time. You know, what I was struck with with your book, as you talk about some of the advice, what we should be telling

our girls instead. Some of them were going to get bigger, angrier, hornier, smellier. The list goes on. And I'm wondering also why you think that message isn't getting through to, let's say, a 14-year-old Hadley. Yes, well, you know, you look today, everyone thinks, oh, well, girls can do anything they want today.

We have so many female leaders. But in truth, what are girls looking at? They're looking at images on Instagram where a girl is perfect and pretty. She's not spotty. She's not smelly. She's not hairy. She's not horny. She's not got a crush on a boy who doesn't like I think because there's so much idealization of young female girls and their bodies that people forget how uncomfortable it is to be a teenage girl in that body. And I want to go back to your experience as well because it is really, I suppose you're bringing us inside what it was like. And you mentioned that 90% of course, of girls that are suffering from it. It does happen to boys as well.

And I should also say that there is information and support about eating disorders on the Women's Hour website. But you were in and out of hospitals. And also a really unique way, I think, throughout your book is that you revisit. You go back. You go back to the places. You go back to the people. Tell our listeners a little bit about what it was like when you were in those various hospitals. You number them instead of name them.

But when I was reading about your experiences, it came across as so exhausting. Exhausting and utterly bewildering. You know, I had been a very privileged, you know, protected little girl all my life. And suddenly, I was yanked out of school and put in these psychiatric wards, living alongside schizophrenics and drug addicts, alcoholics, you know, people who I'd never encountered before. And I was always the youngest on the ward. And I'd gone from obsessing over day over whether I'd have double physics or PE to wondering which nurse would be on in duty that day. And would I be watched while I was on the toilet? It's a completely different life. It's as though you've slipped down a grate on the street and the world is continuing above your head and you're suddenly in this sewer. And it was terrifying. Certainly

in hospital number one, which in many ways was the most comfortable, it was a well-known private psychiatric hospital. I was put on lithium and Prozac when I arrived because I was so hysterical and fearful. And I was very underweight and also still only just 14. And I then had a massive grand mal seizure. And it's impossible to say whether it was the medicine that led to that or whether that was always going to happen. But I'd never had one before. And I've had seizures regularly ever since. And it is since, you know, people have said since that you shouldn't give certain kinds of medicine to kids who are so underweight or kids who are under a certain age. So things like that, you know, there was a lot of uncertainty there. People didn't really know what to do and what to do with any of us. which is electrical current therapy, which the other girls and women in Hospital One all had. Unfortunately, my parents said no to that, which I'm very grateful for. And also the constant threat of force feeding.

And if you lost any way, anyhow, you would lose certain privileges, like you wouldn't be allowed out of bed for a certain number of days. I mean, it was quite Victorian in a lot of ways. With the force feeding that you mentioned, though though because there was almost a competitive streak very much between the girls yes and young women that were there and who was the had the most chronic uh i suppose condition when it came to that anorexia so somebody who was force-fed for example was higher up the hierarchy if i speak in these terms instead of others. And I suppose kind of that there were your own set of rules that you were following. And I think also that you felt you kind of learned the tricks of the trade within those hospitals.

Yes, we would all swap tricks with each other. But also there was a lot of competitiveness among anorexics. You know, anorexia in a lot of ways is a very competitive illness. You want to be the skinniest, you want to eat the least. And, you know, this goes back to what I was saying about, you know, anorexia in a lot of ways is a very competitive illness. You want to be the skinniest, you want to eat the least. And, you know, this goes back to what I was saying about, you know, anorexia not being about being thin, it's about wanting to look ill. It's a competition about who's the most ill. So who had been on the intravenous feeding tube for the longest, who had had it earliest, all that kind of competitiveness, because you want to be the skinniest and the craziest. And that's a very intense atmosphere to live in for six months

at a time. Did you feel it had changed massively when you went back these 30 years later? guineast and the craziest. And that's a very intense atmosphere to live in for six months at a time. Did you feel it had changed massively when you went back these 30 years later? It has changed a lot. There's a lot more awareness of autism sensitivity because there is a theory that for some anorexia may be a female version of a female form of autism. So there's much more freedom in choosing what to eat. There's, you know, you can choose bland foods, which may be easier to people with autism, bland colors on the ward, less shouting. When I was there, there was a lot of shouting from the nurses. There's not that kind of loud noise anymore. And also there's more awareness of various biological factors that can play a part in

anorexia. You know, are some people genetically predisposed to it? Are some people physically predisposed to it? For me, I don't feel that those are relevant to me. For me, I feel it was emotional experiences that I had. And the treatments as well, I think, because a lot of it felt quite futile, that you'd get to a certain weight, and then you would be sent home. That's where you would begin to lose weight again, and I'll speak about the family in just a moment. And then to return again to hospital. You describe splitting into ill you and well you. And patients and parents and partners can be encouraged to see the eating disorder as a separate entity.

Explain that to us a little. Well, for me, when I first started to stop eating, there was a part of me that couldn't really believe what I was doing to myself. You know, I'd see myself skipping lunch and, you know, letting my mother cry hysterically while I refused to eat my dinner. And there was another part of me that absolutely couldn't help what I was doing. In hospital, it became just the ill me. And then at a certain point after nine admissions, when I kept up with my schoolwork, that helped the well me slightly separate because I had

a foot in the outside world which is why I always say to parents who are going through this with their daughters or also to girls and young women going through this don't collude in making the world just about anorexia. Yeah let's delve into that because that bit it stopped me in my tracks actually and I was mentioning at the top of the programme there, you know, don't become the caregiver, get professional help. And I think mothers have historically had a lot of blame, been given a lot of blame with this disease inaccurately. But you talk about them being able to hand over that caregiving to not become their, not be the food police, for example. But how can somebody do that? And you do point out that it is often women, the mothers that become the caregivers, as opposed to the

fathers. Of course. And also because it's often the daughter who gets ill. So it's seen as the mother understands most. But you can't let your relationship just be about food. You know, for so many girls who develop anorexia, it is, like I said, partly a desire to stay close to their mother, just as they're starting to get independence independence and also partly a bid for independence. And if the mother becomes the all-encompassing caregiver, that, first of all, that endorses part of the anorexia's desire, which is to have the mother close to her, and also kind of undermines the other desire, which is to break away. You need to have professional help. And you can't let your relationship just be about anorexia because, in a way, it then becomes harder for the girl to recover, because it's like sacking her mother. The mother has had a job now of being the food police. But the mother is in the home

with her when she comes out, in your case, from a hospital. She is. And you know, there are options. I know it's so hard to get appointments with cams and various eating disorder help places. There are options. I know of lots of girls who go to, for example, for day hospital, which is when they go into hospital and eat their three meals a day with someone watching rather than the mother watching. You know, there are ways around it. And when I started to get better at home, I just had to take the responsibility for myself. But, you know, look, I've got a little daughter now. I don't know what I would do if, God forbid, she started to get ill. But what I'm saying is if the mother colludes in saying the world is just about anorexia, it's not going to help her get better. For me, what helped me get better was keeping up with

my schoolwork. That made you special. Well, it's true. I mean, it made me realize that my life didn't have to be just about the hospital because I was the only one on the ward who kept up with my schoolwork. And suddenly I realized this was kind of this was now my thing. Being anorexic wasn't special on an anorexia ward. But most of all, it maintained my glimpse on the outside world, which is the most important part for recovery. That glimpse, that glimmer, I'm sure people will want to know, how do you magnify that to get a person onto a path of recovery if it's possible and I will say as we know it can be incredibly difficult to recover from

It can be incredibly difficult to recover from so I'm not saying this is the cure-all but the doctors I spoke to people like Professor Hubert Lacey who is very respected in this field and who was a doctor when I was originally in hospital 30 years ago and is still working. All of them say the same thing, which is it can be the smallest thing that sets them off.

It's like a trigger. Just as the most random trigger can make someone ill, it can be the most random trigger that makes them get better. And he said he's had patients who say they started to get better when a nurse was talking about what she was going to do that weekend and the patient's only thinking, oh, I would like to do that. I don't want to just be in hospital all weekend. Just keep talking about what's going on in the outside world, what holidays the other children in the family's only thinking, oh, I would like to do that. I don't want to just be in hospital all weekend. Just keep talking about what's going on in the outside world,

what holidays the other children in the family are going on, what the school friends are doing at school, what school trips they're going on, things like that. You just keep persisting in reminding them of the outside world. And of course the anorexic doesn't want to hear it because it's like an attack on the anorexia, but you have to just keep reminding them the world is not just anorexia. I'll come to anorexia speak in a moment,

but a message came in from a listener, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch as you listen to Hadley Freeman. She says, or he says, I wanted to send in a message this morning of hope and recovery. My daughter celebrated her 30th birthday at the weekend and each and every year of her life is so precious to us all as a family. Our journey was difficult, at times heartbreaking, but with mental health support, she has managed to flourish. That's great. And it is totally possible to recover.

Like I say, doctors kind of despaired of me and told my mother to prepare for my death. And I wanted to die and I am fully recovered now. You know, I work and I have three children. It is absolutely possible. That doesn't mean it's easy or guaranteed, but it is always possible. So let's turn to anorexia speak, particularly for those that are within this world, you know, whether it's themselves or a loved one. This is things that people said to you

and how you interpreted them. Talk us through an example. Well, you know, anyone who has a daughter with anorexia will know that the most seemingly innocuous comment will be interpreted in the most horrible way. So if you say you're looking good, she'll hear that as you're looking fat. And, you know, if you say everybody worries about their weight, you know, it's not just you, she'll hear, but she'll hear that as everybody wishes they were as strong as you. It is like having, in a sense, it's like,

I call it like anorexia hearing aid, as opposed to beer goggles, like everything you hear gets retranslated through that. That is the illness. And to me, that's, that's the ill them telling them that this is what people really mean. You look well, is kind of the worst thing you can say to an anorexic, because like I said, what they want is to look ill. So what can you say? I would say talk about anything other than food and weight with them. Just don't feed that part of them because that's all they're thinking about. That's all they're thinking all the time is about food and weight. Just don't get drawn into those conversations. Talk about movies. Talk about going out. Talk about what the dog did that morning.

Anything else, try to keep it as normal as possible. You did point out in the book, you say anorexia does not have a great reputation, personality. Well, it's not much fun. And, you know, a part of the point of anorexia for a lot of girls and the reason good girls get it is it allows them to be angry in a way they don't feel they're able to be normally. And so they do become angry, they do become mean and they do become hysterical. It is not in any way a fun illness for anyone around them. Another message. Let me see. Hello, my daughter is now in strong recovery from anorexia, having fallen down the rabbit hole two years ago, age 14,

in the context of a pandemic and toxic friendships. As a carer to my daughter, it has been the hardest time of our lives. It has taken such tough love and holding such firm boundaries. It is really not understood at all by society. That is definitely true. It is treated, like you said, like a kind of silly girl's illness, you know, like daddy problems or a tennis elbow, when the fact is, like you said,

it's the mental illness with the highest rate of mortality. And, you know, the general statistics are one-third recover, one-third have it for the rest of their lives, chronic is what it's called, and one third die. And I do interview parents of girls who I was in hospital with, in the book who did die. It is a very, very serious illness. And the fact that it's treated as just silly girls wanting to look at like Kate Moss just proves to me the misogyny in society, because this is an illness that's largely suffered by girls and women. And for it to be dismissed in that way is really disgusting. You also talk about it being astonishingly

consistent. It's amazing how anorexics kind of think the same ways. And when I was researching the book and was reading about girls in medieval times who wouldn't eat, you know, who were then worshipped as saints, they would think the same kind of thoughts I did to trick themselves out of eating food. It is incredible how persistent the illness is. That the thought pattern is the same. And I didn't read that anywhere. It's not like I learned that from a book and I wasn't talking to other anorexics at that point. It was very early in the illness.

And when I went back to the last hospital I was in, which I call Hospital 4, which is an NHS psychiatric hospital, you know, the girls were all doing the same things I did, you know, twitching and moving, jiggling their leg around, pacing, things that other girls I was in hospital with doing. I mean, it is incredible how consistent it is and how little people still understand it. I want to read another message that's just come in from a listener. And she says, she or he, I suppose it could be. I'm in tears listening to Hadley talk about her anorexia. With one daughter recovering, but a younger daughter now showing signs, we are terrified of what might come next.

I'm wondering how to handle both girls now. Thank you for all the advice and wisdom. Well, I mean, this is not very helpful advice probably, but I would say get medical help as soon as possible. The earlier intervention comes, the better it is for recovery. It just makes it so much easier. And I hope the older one,

as I'm sure she does, has someone helping her outside the family too. You know, you say you wrote the book to tell people who are in it, like our listener, and thank you for getting in touch, that life can get unimaginably better. Tell us a little bit about your,

you talked about the glimmer, but I'm talking about closing that door on anorexia. And maybe why aren't there, you know, more people talking about also how to get on that path to recovery? People really, I think part of it is that people just want to believe it's just silly girls wanting to be thin and that all that needs to happen is for Kate Moss to put on some weight and then anorexia will be gone. I think the people are very scared to understand how angry, sad and anxious a lot of teenage girls are, and how they will express it through punishing their bodies. And by punishing their bodies, they punish others around them. For me, my life is unimaginably different from how it was even 10 years ago, certainly 30 years ago, when all I thought about every day was how many calories was I burning in that moment?

You know, when was my next meal and how little of it would I be able to get away with eating? That's literally all I thought about sitting here constantly pinching my arms, circling my legs, constantly seeing how thin or not thin I was. That was all it was. And I understand that that looks like self-obsession or narcissism, but it's not. It's me trying to tell girls, but also to tell them that we will, they will let people down, even their parents, and that's OK. But you became a parent yourself. I think that was a real turning point for you. It was. It feels silly to put it that way for me because it sounds just like, I'm saying, have children, you'll be all better.

But your body is going to change so much during pregnancy. And that was what I was wondering, you know, what would happen next? And it's not the same for everyone, of course. No, it's not. And for some people who've suffered anorexia, having a baby then tips them back into anorexia because their body feels, first of all, it's so changed. But what it really is, is that their lives are so out of control and they can't control things anymore. For me, it, it changed everything. I was eating normally for the first time in my life. First of all, when I was pregnant for the

first time, I was pregnant with twins. So I was incredibly hungry. And also I had this just real wake up where I thought I don't want to be an anorexic mother. And anorexia, it does kind of get passed down through the generations. Some people think that's because it's hereditary. Some people think it's from learned behavior. And for me, I just did not want to see my children, you know, seeing me being anorexic. Thank you so much for coming in. I think our listeners will have got a lot from that.

And also best of luck with Good Girls. Thanks. Hadley Freeman, thank you. Now, last week, the new trailer for the romantic comedy Barbie was released did you see that

it's featuring Margot Robbie she's in the title role we have Ryan Gosling as Ken everybody got talking particularly about the feet did you see all that if you're on social media

a lot about Barbie's feet but also about the clothes and the multiverse all that but there are 36 new rom-coms coming out this year

36 so from big blockbusters, they have Your Place or Mine that features Reese Witherspoon, Ashton Kutcher, smaller budget hits. Maybe you heard about Rye Lane. So why is 2023 the year that seems to be having a rom-com revival?

The film director, Elizabeth Sankey, joins me now. Her film, Romantic Comedy, looked at the history of the genre. Also, we have TV and film critic Rhianna Dillon on hand to tell us more about the romantic comedies that we will be seeing.

You're both very welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. Well, thank you. Good to see you. Let's have a chat about this. Rhianna, let me start with you. Why 2023? Are there so many rom-coms

coming out this year? And also, I'd like you, if you can, to define a rom-com because it seems to me to be an incredibly generic term. Okay, so I think that there are loads of reasons why there are going to be so many this year. The one people who grew up in the golden age of rom-coms, which for me was the 90s, are now filmmakers themselves. They want to put their own stamp on this much-loved genre. And after a bit of a break from rom-coms, there's a lot of room for them to do this. But another reason I think is pure escapism. We are a world in crisis.

There's a pandemic. There are wars going on around the world. We're in a cost-of-living crisis. And this is when we need hopeful fun escapist films and if you look at one of the peaks of early rom-coms you know the screwball comedies during world war ii they were some of the best films of that era and that was precisely what the world needed at that time in terms of the rom-com formula often it's a cis, white couple who fall in love. They don't necessarily know each other at the beginning of the film. They go on a journey and through that they fall in love. They're often at odds at the beginning,

but then realise that despite all of their differences, they really need each other to make their lives whole and perfect. Often one of them is rich. That's a very big rom-com trope. But you know, is that changing? I think it absolutely is. You mentioned Rylane just then. That is such a perfect example and got me so excited about what we can expect from rom-coms in the future. Because we're looking at a young couple who aren't white, for a change, and their jobs are pretty normal jobs.

One is an accountant, one wants to be a costume designer in movies, but it's just about them sort of wandering around their local area talking. And it's not the same kind of journey. It's not the same sort of aspirational journey that we have come to expect to want from watching a rom-com. Right, Elizabeth, let me turn to you. What is it, do you think, that makes them so appealing? Because I was reading that people don't just watch them once. It's the sort of film that people watch again and again. Well, I think, as Rihanna says, it's escapism. They tend to take place in these

fantasy worlds. Even if it's New New York it's a New York that is perfect and they have a lovely job and it's always sunny and even if you go back to Shakespeare and like the very early kind of iterations of rom-coms they were taking place in magical forests and so it's these worlds that are really nice to inhabit and even Rye Lane I know as you say it's set in in London but it's very colourful and it's very appealing and they're kind of creating this magic within those areas together so I think that that's a big part of it but I also think it's really primal I think that it appeals to something in every human being every human being can fall in love and wants to fall in love and is looking for that connection with somebody whether it lasts a lifetime or just a night so i think um they just they've been around since plato they're

not going anywhere and i think it's such a tried and trust tested formula that you can sort of put in any new kind of characters new uh conflicts and it will it will will really flourish and be very subversive, but also very persuasive as well. I mean, it's come under criticism, I think, because people saw it as formulaic. And I'm wondering for both of you, let me start with you, Elizabeth. I mean, is it just about escapism or is there something, I don't know, a deeper lesson to be learned with rom-coms I think there absolutely is yeah and I think as Rihanna said it's at a time when things are uncertain when you have political clashes clashes in terms of the way that people are viewing the world I think romantic comedies do this very very clever thing where they bring together two people who are in conflict and it's a funny light story you

know what's going to happen you know they're going to end up together but underneath that all you can really talk about the bigger issues in society class gender you know sexuality race religion all of these things can can be sort of discussed even mental health and addiction things like that um within this very light humorous framework so i think that's that's part of their real brilliance and and they show the humanity of people in such kind of beautiful appealing ways and they show how we can all transform and we can all become better people. Rainn Allen Miller was on the programme a few weeks ago, the director of the rom-com we were mentioning, Rylane,

that has kind of changed it in some ways. But she did say that she's not afraid to make an unapologetically happy film that is commercial. And going back to you, Rihanna, I mean, why do you think they got such a bad reputation? When I'm reading about them, it kind of reminds me of some of those arguments that there was about chick lit, like that they weren't given, we'd say, I suppose, really the Jew accolades that perhaps they should have. Yeah, I mean, rom coms have always been notoriously straight and infamously white and after that sort of repetitive

narrative audiences rightly started switching off um also i think i was elizabeth's incredible film romantic comedy i was looking through all of the films that she had to reference at the end of that film and so many of the films that she talked about are directed by men. And suddenly you realise that we're sort of being told this narrative from people who aren't necessarily us. We're being almost preached to. We're trying to be pushed in one particular way. We're told to think a certain way. I mean, how many of us grew up sort of wanting that prince, that happily ever after, that of course doesn't really exist. And you get a bit older and you realise that and you realize that's not really what you want anyway. And I think suddenly we've sort of taken ownership of that a bit more.

So we're talking about some of the really exciting things that we're getting on streamings, for example, the Mindy Project or Crazy Ex-Girlfriend or Never Have I Ever, even Heartstopper. We're getting people in the leads who don't usually get to be in the lead you know a young gay couple a woman who isn't a household name with mental health issue issues who isn't stick thin and a young Indian American woman these are we're all we're starting to see people who we just haven't really seen before telling the stories that we really need to hear the ones that we genuinely can relate to. So I think that's why romantic films got such a bad rep sort of towards the noughties.

They were just getting more and more formulaic and repetitive. And now we're seeing a space for newer stories, more interesting ones. So the streaming services, it sounds like, really helping that, instead of it having to go to the big screen. Absolutely. Because, you know, films aren't really, these sort of mid-budget films that rom-coms are aren't really made for the big screen for cinemas anymore that doesn't really exist we're either getting these tiny little indie films or massive marvel disney-owned um cgi extravaganzas and so that's where streaming comes in because that's where those sorts of mid-budget films are able to sit really happily and we're able to find them. They're more accessible.

There are big stars, however, coming back to the rom-coms. Here's a few. Anne Hathaway, Reese Witherspoon, Priyanka Chopra, Margot Robbie, I mentioned her as well. What do you think that tells us, Rihanna? That is interesting, actually, because we had, you know, we are so used to having our queens of rom-coms from the very beginning, you know, and it was Catherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn, Marilyn Monroe, of course. And for, you know, newer generations, we're seeing, we are still seeing millennials coming through. The zeds haven't really cut through quite in the same way um so i wonder if it's about sort of having that gravitas um but also rom-coms aren't necessarily

aspirational in quite the same way anymore we don't all need to be sandra bullock or jennifer lopez i feel like some of the films that we've seen cutting through recently it's more sort of insert self here and having a big name like re Reese Witherspoon isn't a guaranteed hit anymore. Your Place or Mine, the film that you mentioned with Ashton Kutcher, was a pretty terrible film and most people said that. And so it just doesn't kind of work in quite the same way. We're not all flocking to see these films

because of the big star. Actually, what we want is a really decent narrative. Ticket to Paradise was another one which did really well with older generations who were perhaps still nostalgic for those older movies where the main couple didn't necessarily seem to like each other. And that was Julia Roberts and George Clooney. But actually, I don't think that's kind of dripped down

quite in the same way. Let me turn to you, Elizabeth, because Rihanna's kind of outlining, you know, some that worked and some that didn't. What are some of your favourite rom-coms and why do you think they stand the test of time? My favourite rom-coms, I mean, I grew up watching films at home with my parents that I still re-watch today. So When Harry Met Sally was always a family favourite. And I think, as Rihanna said, the narrative is really important but it's

also actually and going back to the idea that these are films made you know just for women the best romantic comedies are the ones that have two really strong leads where you're hearing the male perspective and the female perspective when Harry Met Sally was written by men and women and all of the kind of team put together were really sharing their own experiences and that's why it was so good and I think those are the rom-coms that I love the most where you're seeing somebody just in two characters who've been really well observed really well drawn and they're both facing their own limitations as people and they are being transformed by each other and by their

experiences and I think yeah those are the films that I love the most and I think that is what's happening now as well is that we're not having these ridiculous sort of rom-com just got so bizarre in terms of their plot points in the 2000s of like body swap type levels of fantasy. And I think now we're getting back to that, like Annie Hall. These are two characters who are dealing with life, with reality, and they are finding some sort of solace in each other and a greater understanding of the world.

So those are the films that I love. Just before I let you go, do you think Elizabeth, that we could be seeing an Oscar worthy performance in some of the new rom-coms that are coming out? I really, really hope so. Yeah, I haven't

seen the Ashton Kutcher one yet, but you know. I don't know, listening to Rihanna, I don't think it's going to make the cut. I'm no expert,

but. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us and also Rihanna, really good to have them both on, Elizabeth Sankey and Rihanna Dillon good to have them both on, Elizabeth Sankey

and Rihanna Dillon. 36 rom-coms to look forward to coming up. You are listening to Woman's Hour. So many messages coming in following that interview with Hadley. Let me read a couple of them. Gabrielle, finding it really hard as a teacher of children with eating disorders to hear

that parents need to get professional help and that the mother shouldn't be the caregiver. It's not a choice for most mothers. A support is not there due to a lack of workers. Mothers will find it very hard to hear when all they want is help from professionals.

This may result in further upset for mother and child. And we do, Gabrielle, of course, acknowledge that you say, please acknowledge this difficulty for all mothers listening. And Hadley did say it can be so difficult

to get that support that they want. But I think it's true saying that is the ideal. Here's another it's important also to note that anorexia isn't confined to the young. My mother who went on to be 86 years of age lived with this all her life as did we her family. We had to undertake extraordinary lengths in her care home to overcome the issues. It was triggered by an unutterable sadness as a child of nine and it dominated every moment of her life. I'm very sorry to hear that. One more. My daughter is now 35, but was desperately ill from 14 until her mid-20s with anorexia. It was the most terrible time of my life and that of my late ex-husband.

Our marriage did not survive. And for my other children. Although I think my daughter is not ill at present, I feel that it might come back at any time. I'm sorry to hear that you're living with that fear. But thank you all, of course, so much for getting in touch with your stories, 84844. Now, I want to turn to Iran,

where the police have said that they plan to use smart technology, including cameras, in public places to identify and then penalise women who violate the country's hijab law. Iranian State TV has reported that enforcement groups are also set up on the Tehran metro, which will refuse entry to women not wearing the hijab. So that is the veil that covers the hair. The number of women in Iran defying the country's compulsory dress code has increased since the wave of protests after the death of Massa Amini in police custody, which was last September. Farhanak Amidi is the BBC's Near East Women's Affairs correspondent and joins me now. Welcome back to Women's Hour, Farhanak.

Do we know how many women are no longer wearing the hijab? It's very hard to actually put a number out there because obviously there is no survey taking place. But from what we are seeing from the images and photos, even like images that come from official news agencies, when they are, for instance, taking photos of the Nowruz Bazaar, which is the new year in Iran, you see so many women without hijab in the background. I mean, this is unprecedented. I grew up in Iran myself. I left Iran when I was 30 years old. And there was no way you could go to the bazaar without hijab.

But nowadays you see it everywhere. There are women posting photos of themselves in restaurants and cafes and bazaars without hijab. And it's not only confined to big cities or more modern cities like Tehran. We are seeing women without hijab in very conservative religious cities like Mashhad or like my city, Isfahan. Isfahan is a very conservative, very traditional city. When you walk down the street, you see a lot of women with black veil, which you don't really see that much in, for instance, northern Tehran. But in Isfahan, you did see women wearing the black veil a lot. There are photos of women, footage of women in the bazaar of Isfahan without hijab.

So let's turn to this, this technology that has been put there to try and identify women that are not wearing it, apparently. Maybe there'll be an awful lot of people on those cameras. What do you expect the Iranian authorities to do with that information? Well, this is what they're saying. They say that women will be identified and then a warning will be sent to them either via SMS, message on their phone, or I don't know, a letter. And then their case will be referred to courts for them, for the fine or punishment to be set for them. So they said they can be fined from one million to a month, which in pounds or dollars is not much,

but for Iran is quite a lot of money. And their cars can be confiscated. And they're also threatening businesses and shopkeepers who are giving services and providing services to women without hijab. They are saying you should stop giving services to women who come without hijab to your shops or businesses. Otherwise, we will shut down your premises. But how effective do you think that might be? There's a couple of things that come to mind.

One, there was a report in The Times today that was talking about a survey that showed only 10 percent of the Iranian population support offenders being fined. And also, if there are so many women, as you mentioned in pictures, that are without the hijab, there would be thousands of people that would need to be penalized. And I'm just wondering how the courts would be able to, like, how would they be able to practically implement it? That's exactly, even inside the system, the regime, some authorities, MPs, lawyers have come out and said, this is actually impossible. The number of women not wearing hijab is so many right now that this is basically impossible. But this is what the regime does every once in a while, especially now, you know, when the weather gets warmer, they try to threaten women more, because that's when women start wearing loosely, loose hijab more. And especially in the past year, or since last September, women have been pushing back the mandatory hijab more and more as a civil disobedience.

So they are trying to threaten. But however, a lot of the experts inside the regime themselves, lawyers, MPs, they are saying this is actually impossible to do because there are so many women. And I should mention that survey wasn't in the Times. It did read the Times this morning. It was in the Guardian. And there's one many women. And I should mention that survey wasn't in the Times. I did read the Times this morning. It was in the Guardian. And there's one more thing. You know, people are criticizing all of this

because at this time, schoolgirls are still being poisoned in schools in Iran. Thousands of schoolgirls have been poisoned. No one has been arrested. No one has been held to account. And people are saying that you are going after women and what they're wearing and not after those who are poisoning our children at schools. So that is a story that we have talked about previously. And people are trying to figure out exactly why that is happening or how it is

happening. But if I come back to this story, the protests, are there any protests physically taking place anymore? Protests have taken place. They took place in the past few weeks during the Nowruz and stuff in Saqqaz right now in Kurdistan. People are on strike because of the school poisonings as well. So it is connected in that way. But I'm wondering, the women without the hijab, these measures being implemented, the authorities trying to crack down on them, women beginning to push back, whatever it might be,

it feels like a cat and mouse game. I mean, is this the next stage? Is this what's going to continue before it gets to, I don't know, women getting what they want or the authorities getting what they want? I don't think women are asking anything from the regime anymore. They are basically pushing it back. They keep on saying, this is not a demand we have from you. You need to go. This is what the people are saying. They say this is a revolution. So it's very interesting,

the dialogue that we are having and what we are seeing on social media. But from what I saw, like since the day the chief of police said that they are going to crack down on women, women have been posting photos of themselves without hijab. Even some of them wearing shorts on the streets of terror. I cannot believe it. I was shocked to see it myself. Farah Nakhamidi, BBC's Near East Women's Affairs Correspondent. Thank you so much for updating us. Now, were you with me on

Monday, yesterday? Did you catch our very special Women's Hour programme on the hot topic of the moment? That is artificial intelligence, AI. It is all over the news, but what is it exactly? What sort of impact is it going to have on women? And some that are already, of course, left behind by that technology gender gap that we've spoken about before.

Well, as part of the programme, I spoke to Professor Gina Neff. She's Executive Director of the Mindrew Centre for Technology and Democracy at Cambridge University. And here she explains why understanding AI is key to understanding our future. Frankly, the research out there is really mixed. There's a lot we don't know. We are in the middle of an enormous experiment on what these technologies are going to do for jobs. So when I say how worried should women be,

well, we all should be concerned because the technology is outpacing our social and regulatory abilities to govern and to really think about the kinds of good societies that we all want, the kinds of good futures that we want. And that was Professor Gina Neff. And if that has just piqued your interest in AI, I have to say it did mine. And also what the future holds for women. You can listen back to that whole program. That's on BBC Sounds.

Just search for Women's Hour. And it is the program for Monday, the future holds for women. You can listen back to that whole programme. That's on BBC Sounds. Just search for Woman's Hour. And it is the programme for Monday, the 10th of April. I have a feeling we'll be doing more on it in the weeks and months to come. Now, last week, if you were with me, we spoke to the artist Alison Kinnard, who had a rejection in her youth, which then impacted her for decades, but in a very good way. Today, another story in our occasional series when something went wrong, but turned out all right.

Alexis Strum is an actress and a sketch comedian, but 20 years ago, she had a record deal and achieved her dream to make an album. It was called Cocoon, but then it was abruptly pulled. She walked away from music, until now, because a few weeks ago, someone asked her to put her music up on Spotify and she has finally launched her album and has had one million views on TikTok. Let's meet Alexis.

Welcome to the programme. You know when I heard about your story Alexis you were on the brink of stardom I thought and then it all came crashing down. What happened? Oh god so much happened I think the thing was the the label at the time didn't really know what to do with me um and it was a funny time in music there was no social media that we have now no tiktok no instagram it was difficult to break an artist so I kind of sympathized with them but obviously it was devastating to record a whole album and it not be released um and in the end I actually served notice on the label, which is quite unheard of. But it's kind of like when you're in a job

that's not really working out for you. And I said, right, I'll give you three months to release something. And if you don't, then I get to walk away. And they didn't take me up on the offer. So I walked away. That was it. And so much has happened since then.

But the nuclear option. But I mean, just to give our our listeners a sense I mean you had I think sang with Kylie perhaps or written for Kylie that you had the videos you you were you know you kind of had the pop star life already on the go I was as good as a pop star I mean it's funny because I I used to run a night called the time I almost which is pretty timely uh in the context of what we discussing, just about all the things that nearly happened to me. And on paper, as they say in Love Island, I was a pop star. I sang with Robbie Williams.

I played at the V Festival. I went out to do South by Southwest. My video was on the box on MTV and everything. But it didn't happen. It's a really interesting place to be where you're almost successful and you have the kind of the trappings of fame, but without fame itself. Which means obviously I can shop in Poundland uninterrupted and live my best life. Maybe until now. Maybe until now. But you walked away from music. And I just want to dwell on that for a moment, because what did that feel like?

You know, to be the almost pop star and then be able to leave behind? Because my understanding is you almost couldn't listen to music afterwards. That's absolutely right. I mean, I couldn't. It worked in stages, you know, the sort of the cycle of grief. I was devastated at the time. I was in my 20s. And, you know, I of the cycle of grief um I was devastated at the time I was in my 20s and you know I I knew that was it I knew I wasn't going to get another opportunity because I was

almost sick of my own name I've been signed so many times um and it was it was devastating I couldn't listen to the radio because I knew all the people that were either singing the songs or had written them and I couldn't listen to my own music. And funnily enough, I listened to it again, probably, yeah, two months ago. And that was the first time in about 10 years I'd actually listened to it. My daughter wasn't even, at my daughter's age,

she wasn't even really aware of the fact that mummy used to be an almost pop star. So she started listening to it now, which is actually really lovely, you know. So you're going to launch the album now. You know, why don't we play, it includes this song, Bad Haircut, inspired by a breakup. Let's hear a short burst. So, you know, could almost be like the breakup with the record company, to be quite honest, Alexis. But why launching it now? What happened?

So I have a very varied life now. I have a day job, a part time day day job in IT, believe it or not. And I also write, I've written a comedy drama called Bully and stuff. And out of the blue, I was getting messages from some of my fan base. Now, I thought there were literally one or two people who were my fans, but it turns out there's a few more huge huge support from the lgbtq plus community as well and they were just saying jones been nearly 20 years why don't you just put the music out yourself and i it hadn't occurred to me i don't really sing anymore apart from in the shower and to my daughter and and i thought yeah you know what why not it's going back to what you said how did it feel i'd made an album i i made it to be listened to and that was really hard to get over and i i I made it to be listened to. And that was really hard to get over. And I need those songs to be listened to because they're all stories that I felt I needed to tell.

You know, even Bad Haircut was written about a breakup. My ex-boyfriend gambled away his parents' house. I was devastated. Kept getting back with him. Cut my hair, as you do with breakups. And I expected to look like Natalie Imbruglia and I looked like Myra Hindley it was awful I bought that haircut oh that haircut and I see online that you know people can pop up their photograph of a bad haircut with that music yes which is

really fun well this is what I'm hoping because I mean I'm such a huge fan of TikTok and I'm hoping it becomes a little trend where people share their bad haircuts with using the music I mean, I'm such a huge fan of TikTok and I'm hoping it becomes a little trend where people share their bad haircuts using the music. I mean, I'm probably I don't know. I don't think you can actually decide to start a trend. I think trends start their own accord. But, you know, it'd be lovely, wouldn't it? After all these years and I am not quite 46 yet. I'm 45. I'm 46 in three months.

So that's a good age to start being a pop star. Okay, well, yes. Do you think you're going to become a pop star at 45 and a half or three quarters? You know what? I think it's such a lovely thing that's happened. And to be on this show and talking about my music career, which I'd completely forgotten about and buried because it was too painful. Who knows? I think you've got to be open to these things.

I'm a big fan of that. I love to see what comes of it. You know, it could be I get the music for a cat food commercial or something. Who knows? Let's be open to it. And if it does take off, are you going to go on tour? Will we be able to catch you? It's funny. After 20 years, I can still sing. I can still strum a guitar. So why not? I say yes. Is your real name Alexis Strum? It really is. A hundred percent. I know.

Alicia Keys, not so much, but it really is Alexis Strum. It's destiny, right? I think it's destiny. We'll definitely buy the tickets. But you're out there and you're on TikTok and your name is Alexis Strum and they can find you and Bad Haircut. I wish you all the best of luck. It's been really fun speaking to you, Alexis.

Thank you, you too. That is Bad Haircut. You can find it really easy. I was listening to it. I have it in my head now. I want to read another couple of messages in our last couple of minutes

on Woman's Hour because you've been so honest getting in touch after hearing Hadley Freeman. Gillian says, I've had anorexia since I was 15. I'm now 68. I've had numerous admissions

to specialist eating disorders and I've also had periods of respite, giving birth to four children and giving my all to them. I agree with Hadley on concentrating on outside pursuits to help with recovery. Although if you let your guard down,

it can come back and bite you. I honestly don't think I will ever experience full recovery, but I'm living a life alongside it. I'm afraid it has become part of my identity. And another gets in touch. I'm a mother of a teenage daughter in recovery from anorexia. So many things rang true in your interview with Hadley.

The big one for me was hearing her describe the desire of daughters to cling to their mothers while also being very angry with them. My daughter was very aggressive towards me and developed severe separation anxiety, which heartbreakingly morphed into coercive control and domestic abuse. Two years on, she's physically and mentally much better, but I still feel very traumatised. We got the support, but the approach was based on parents taking full control,

which works for some, but not for us. There are a lot of us out there that need something different. I really feel for all the mums out there going through the same thing as me. Thanks for all your messages we will continue to read them if you want to text 84844 or

you can email womanshour email as well Tomorrow we have a treat for you. We have the newly BAFTA nominated Siobhan Maxwini, also Louisa Harland from the much loved Derry Girls in studio right here on Woman's Hour. Siobhan

played the sarcastic nun you'll know and headteacher Sister Michael and Louisa Orla McCool, one of the girls. Well, working together again, this time as two of five sisters, they're on stage at the National Theatre in London as Maggie and Agnes Mundy in Brian Friel's classic play, Dancing at Lunasa. I'm going tonight, we'll

talk about it tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Anita tonight. We'll talk about it tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Anita Arnand and over the next 10 episodes for BBC Radio 4, we're going to be exploring a somewhat tricky title, Princess. Join me as I speak to guests like the comedian Sharpat Korsandi and presenter Charlene White about their favourite princesses. We're going to be unpacking scandalous and fabulous legacies, sharing the stories behind some of the most incredible princesses in history. Join me, Anita Arnand, for Princess on BBC Radio 4.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.