Woman's Hour - Hadley Freeman, The Power of Crying, Staying in Touch with Children when you're in Prison

Episode Date: March 2, 2020

Hadley Freeman has written a memoir, House of Glass, the story of her Jewish relatives across the 20th century, her grandmother and great uncles who fled Poland for Paris after the anti-Jewish pogroms in 1918. We discuss the pros and cons of crying particularly if you're in public. What's it like trying to stay in touch with your children when you're in prison? And what happens when you're on the outside again? Jane talks to Kelly who is in a documentary about women in prison, and to the governor of the prison, HMP Foston Hall in Derbyshire.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Hadley Freeman Interviewed guest: Keith Brymer-Jones Interviewed guest: Susie Orbach Interviewed guest: Joanna Crosse Interviewed guest: Kelly Interviewed guest: Andrea Black Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Today we're talking about crying. If you're someone who cries a lot, actually enjoys a good cry, finds it positive, we'd love to hear from you this morning. We're going to be talking amongst other people to Susie Orbach about the power of crying, how often you should do it. Here's an interesting, though, comment from a listener on our Instagram account. Joanna says, I cry at any opportunity.

I'm not embarrassed. I think it's just human. And here she cuts to the chase and says, I've noticed that non-criers tend to develop quite large bags under their eyes. Unexpressed emotions are not healthy. It's a bit troubling for me because I can't remember the last time I cried. And actually, I think she's right right my eye bags are something to behold. Also on the programme today something really important about women prisoners just how do they keep in contact with their children. You might well have been watching Prison the very impressive Channel 4 series

about the women's prison Foston Hall that, that actually ends tonight. And we'll discuss that on the programme this morning. First, though, our guest is the journalist and writer Hadley Freeman, who's written a wonderful memoir about her family called House of Glass. Hadley, welcome to the programme. Hi, Jane. Thanks for having me. Good to see you. And really, this memoir is, well, its starting point was something that belonged to your grandmother. So tell me about that.

So my grandmother died in 1994. And when I started working as a journalist in 2000, I started to begin to think I might write something about her. And I sort of started snooping around a little bit, going to archives. And in 2006, I think it was, I flew to her old apartment in Miami, where my dad's younger brother still lives. And he fortunately hadn't thrown away any of her stuff. And I was just looking through her closet thinking maybe I'd write about her relationship with fashion.

And I spotted this shoe box at the back of the closet. And I pulled it out thinking it was just going to have another pair of shoes in it. And I would sort of describe them in this article. And instead, it was filled with photo albums from the 1920s and 30s, letters between her and her brothers and her cousins throughout the 40s up to the 90s, this mysterious metal plate saying that one of her brothers had been a prisoner of war, various other paraphernalia, and a drawing by Picasso. And using those clues, I just set off to find out the truth

about the story of her life and those of her brothers. Okay, you said that very lightly, a drawing by Picasso. Tell me more about that. So that was the one thing in the box that I knew why it was there and who it came from. Her older brother, Alex, after the war became a very successful art gallerist. And one of his artists, in fact, the closest relationship he had was with Picasso, who became his friend because Picasso was very impressed by Alex's resistance activities during the war. And Picasso made many drawings for Alex, including a poster for his gallery. So I knew that Alex had got Picasso to make this little drawing for my grandmother

and she just kind of stuck it in a shoebox in her closet. Now you mentioned your grandmother's love of fashion. That was significant too. But you also mentioned the United States and your grandmother wasn't American. Oh no, so none of them were American. When I started the book, I in fact thought they were all French. It turned out they were actually Polish and they'd been born in Poland in the early 1900s, moved to Paris in the 1920s to escape the pogroms. And they all loved France. They hated Poland because they'd been abused there, their father had died there. And all four of them, I should say, it was my grandmother

and her three older brothers, made themselves over as very French. They dressed very French. My grandmother always wore very French styles. And they just loved Paris in particular. And then in 1937, her brother Alex knew that the Nazis were coming. And he could see the problems coming in Europe. And he told my grandmother that he had this very close American friend who was this wealthy millionaire, lived on Park Avenue, worked in fashion, just like she loved. And she had to marry him to get out of Paris. And maybe if she went, then she could get the rest of them out. And very, very reluctantly, my grandmother left behind her fiance in Paris and went off to America to marry this man she didn't know. Well, she was duped, wasn't she? And she was very much duped. And she arrived

there and he met her. This was my grandfather. He was deeply in love with her. I thought she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen. Turned out he was not a millionaire in Park Avenue who worked in fashion. He was a guy who ran a gas station on Long Island. And that's how my grandparents met. We need to go back in time to that situation in Poland,

which the family, as you say, denied their Polishness, actually, for a multitude of sound reasons, I would imagine. But that village was called, remind me, Czarnow. And it was relatively close to the place we now know as Auschwitz. So it was 18 kilometers from Auschwitz, and the two were sister towns. And this was a place of, well, grinding poverty, we should say. This is in the late 20th century, late 19th century, 20th century. So my grandmother's oldest brother was born in 1901. And they were all born in the 1900s. And it was a very poor town. It was a very Jewish town.

It was a little shtetl. And it had a big Jewish marketplace. 55% of the town was Jewish. It had a Jewish mayor. But it was very, very poor, but peaceful. And then World War One started and everything went horrific. Now, this is the part of the book that actually really taught me something because I didn't know that anti-Semitic attacks, anti-Semitism generally, was on the rise in the wake of the First World War. Just explain what happened in that part of Poland.

Well, so Poland was liberated after the World War, because when my grandmother and her brothers were born, it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And then Poland was liberated. Now, Poland had been completely trashed during the World War, as most of Europe had been, and there was huge poverty throughout Europe. There had been these massive social shifts as well,

in terms of governments being know, sort of governments being toppled and old monarchical situations changing. And as a response to this, anti-Semitism was on the rise because people were looking for someone to blame. And in Poland, this was a real problem where suddenly the Jews were being blamed for the poverty, for Polish troubles in a way they hadn't been before. And there was a change in the anti-Semitic narrative. It was no longer just about blaming Jews for killing Jesus. It was now about blaming Jews for being communists and being Bolsheviks. It was a more politically inflected kind of anti-Semitism.

And the first pogrom that happened in Poland was in Czarnow in 1918. And my grandmother still would remember. I mean, she doesn't remember now she's dead, but what she would talk about later, that she was hiding under the bed with her mother and her brothers during this pogrom, hearing the townspeople outside. And her brother Alex, who was 12 at the time,

ran out to try to protect the town. And he writes in his memoir, and I found his memoir in My Grandmother's Belongings after she died. It was never published, how he saw these poles coming into his town and how savage they looked. They looked like animals. And then he looked at their faces and he realized he knew them. coming into his town and how savage they looked. They looked like animals. And then he looked at their faces and he realised he knew them. They were his teachers.

They were people who bought stuff from his father. They were people he sold stuff to in the marketplace. That's the bit that really hurts, if I could put it in such a ridiculous way and in such an anodyne way when it's something that's incredibly serious. What we don't know, of course, and we need to say this because anti-Semitism is on the rise in this country, we don't know how Britain might have reacted had we been challenged in the ways

that other countries were. And I'm talking about Paris, which is where the story, your family story moves on to because your family sought refuge in France. Yes. And like a lot of Jews in Eastern Europe, they moved out.

And Jews in Eastern Europe tended to go to one of three places, either Warsaw, Paris or New York. And my family went to Paris because their cousins were already there. And it seemed like the safe haven until, of course, history then repeated itself in the 1930s. And your grandmother's family, her siblings reacted in various different ways, didn't they? This is what's really interesting about human behavior, I guess. Absolutely. And their individual temperaments totally determine their fates. So her older brother, Henry, was very quiet and wanted to assimilate among the Parisians. But at the same time, wasn't just going to follow the rules. He was smart enough to know he had to look out for himself. So when Jews were told they had to register,

for example, in 1940, he refused to, and he just hid in Paris with his wife, Sonia. And they kind of pretended to be German. They got fake identity cards on the market. Sonia was very good at speaking German. She could pass as a native. Henry was good enough. Jacques, however, believed that if he followed the rules, he'd be safe. So he registered right away. Alex went off to fight and never registered. Alex was a very individual character. He knew he had to look out for himself. And as a result, what happened to the three of them was Henry was able to hide during the war. And he invented this amazing machine, which basically brought microfilming to Paris. And he microfilmed various archives and

people's personal records around France, traveling undercover in great danger, protecting these records from Vichy and the Nazis. And it was thanks to him after the war that, for example, the Port Havre was able to be rebuilt. Jacques registered right away, was captured right away, sent to a concentration camp, unbelievably was given two days leave to visit his newborn baby when he was in this concentration camp in France called Petit Vieillet. He went and the guard said to him, if you don't come back, we'll kill all of your friends here. He went to visit his baby. His brothers are waiting for him and said, you have to run away now. We'll help you. And Jacques said, no, I have to follow the

rules, basically. And he went back and was sent to Auschwitz and died. Alex very much looked after himself. He fought in the Foreign Legion. He got a gold star. He came back to France. And then he went and then, well, I don't know if I should give how much I should give away. Well, you want people to read this book, Had that is important he was one of life's great survivors it says and I know it's not significant but because I'm quite short I always take notice of people who are short and Alex was five foot he was five foot two five foot two yeah and I'm I know that's not the heart of the story but for some reason that is the bit that resonates with me well it turned out to be a very important part in that it helped him escape from this

terrible situation that comes in the middle of the book. And he was able to escape because he was so small. Your grandmother, though, what do you remember of her? Because unsurprisingly, she was a singular and rather sad individual, wasn't she? She had a melancholy about her. I mean, I have to be careful here. I don't want to make it sound like my grandmother was just, you know, going around rending her rags all the time. Like she made a life for herself in America. But it wasn't the life that she'd envisioned for herself. She wanted to live in Paris. She wanted to be with her brothers. She had a fiance there who she'd loved. And suddenly she was living in this tiny Long Island town, which had terrible anti-Semitism

itself, where there was the Ku Klux Klan, the John Birch Society, with this man she didn't really understand, who didn't have any, didn't share her interests. My grandfather loved her very deeply, loved her all his life. And he could never really understand why she didn't feel the same, exactly the same way about him. And also that she wasn't more grateful to him for having saved her, which he basically did. And so it was a difficult situation. And she waited all her life to come back to Paris at which point because she hoped and certainly by the 90s when I was living here with my father

her older son she hoped that she would then be near us and for various reasons she never got that chance What did she say to you about her life? Oh I mean she was very private she never really spoke about it she talked about living in Paris a little bit

but other than that, I really knew nothing. I mean, until I started this, I had no idea that she was Polish. I mean, it never occurred to me. She seemed like the embodiment of France to me. She dressed in very French clothes. She would, you know, use very French phrases all the time. Oh, la, la, la, la. You know, she always told me to call her my grand-mère. To me, she was French. And this book, what would she make of the book? Because you've laid bare your family history here. It's true. And I've had a lot of moral qualms when researching it. You know, was this something I should do? These are photos that my uncles and my great uncles and my grandmother never expected to be seen by me, let alone the world. Was I doing the right thing?

And but I did involve everyone's children, my whole family in this whole process. And everyone thought that these people would want to be remembered. And I mean, I see all of their stories as heroic in different ways. And I hope I've written it that way. And I don't think I've said anything that nobody would want to be exposed. Certainly, Alex wanted his triumphs to be exposed to the world. And I'm glad that they have been. House of Glass is the name of the book. And I said that anti-Semitism is on the rise. What has been the reaction to the book? Well, I've been astonished that people have been so enthusiastic about it.

I really thought people would turn around and say, why is she writing a book about her grandmother? But people have been fascinated by the stories, which is really touching and particularly by my grandmother's story, which I'm really thrilled by because her brothers had very adventuresome lives and, you know, full of military action. And my grandmother's life is one that is very common to women of that era, and perhaps still now, you know, she had a quiet life. Her only response, the only response available to her in terms of the war was to marry someone and to get out,

whereas her brothers were able to join the army and to fight and do all this stuff. And I think people are interested in that, you know, when writing the book, the person I thought of most was Dorothea in Middlemarch, these kind of hidden lives, these private lives. What options are available to women? And normally it's through marriage and that's what they can do. And she did survive. She did. And you're here as a result of that. It's true.

Hadley Freeman, the book is called House of Glass. Thank you very much indeed, Hadley. Best of luck to you. Now, you may well have watched The Great Pottery Throwdown. It is a show on Channel 4. It features in just about every single episode the man you're about to hear speak, Keith Brimer-Jones. Now, you're not going to cry this morning, Keith. Well, who knows? Well, this is it. I never do.

No, well, do you really not know? I really don't know. No, I really don't. I just well up and I have a certain connection with said potter on the programme and there we go. Yeah, we need to set this up. The Great Pottery Throwdown is a show about pottery. It's presented by Sarah Cox. Well, it used to be, yes. It's not presented by Sarah Cox.

No, it's presented by Melanie Sykes now. Of course. We've moved to the dark side. We're on Channel 4. Yes, I did mention that. Well, more 4, actually, yeah. Oh, OK. All right, Keith, it's presented by Melanie Sykes now. Of course. We've moved to the dark side. We're on Channel 4. Yes, I did mention that. Okay, all right, Keith. That's enough detail about the various platforms on which you appear. But there is some wonderful artistry and

I mean, I am a real admirer of craft and the skill set of these people is remarkable. It's incredible and for me, as being a judge on this programme, it's a great honour to watch a potter from conception through the process to fruition when that kiln door opens to see what they've made. But what is interesting about your crying and your emoting is that it is because of other people's efforts. It's nothing to do with you being maudlin or self-obsessive. It's other people have done something and you're so pleased for them. I really am because I realise how hard it is to put yourself out there on a programme like The Great Potter Throwdown and also to bear your

soul in something that you really, really love doing. And obviously it's something that I love doing too. And so there is that connectivity between me and the potters on the show. OK, also with us, Susie Orbach, psychoanalyst, psychotherapist and writer. Welcome, Susie. Hello. And Joanna Cross coaches people in the workplace and also help people with their voices. That's right. That is right, isn't it? Yes, that is right. OK, right. You're a voice coach. So Susie is crying in the way that Keith does it because he's empathising with other people and their efforts, is that common in terms of crying? I think it is. Why do we cry at movies? Why do we cry at a picture? That we have aesthetic responses. We're moved in many different ways. And for some reason, we think crying is about pain when that's a very small piece of what crying is about.

Tears of joy, always. Always? Or being moved, I think. Being moved, yes, indeed, yeah. Is it... Whereabouts in the country are you from, Keith? Well, I'm a Londoner born and bred, but I now live down in Margate. OK, so maybe I'm generalising, but are northern men, in your experience,

more reluctant to show that sort of emotion? Well, I think there's... Or people, northern people. No, I think, no, in my experience, no, but there's obviously the cultural sort of background of where you're brought up. And, you know, I mean, I know guys that cry over football. You know, I would never do that.

No. So there you go. Well, no. A couple of Aston Villa supporters may have shed a tear, I think, yesterday. Oh, yes. Joanna, what about crying in terms of how other people perceive it when an individual cries in public? I think that's a really good point.

Let's take the workplace. If you've got somebody who seems to cry regularly, I think that's not helpful for the individual because then if they cry over something that really is important to them, they might not be taken so seriously or they get a label. But I do think crying is often a build-up of frustration and undealt-with situations and it's a bit of a final straw moment. We know that, for example ian wright who's a retired footballer he was on desert island disc a couple of weeks ago that was wonderful it was wonderful and he had a good cry and he got such i think frankly he got kudos for it um are we a

little easier on men who cry than on women who cry interesting in a lot of my sessions with men i've seen loads of men cry i think there has been a reluctance for them perhaps to cry publicly. But I think, yeah, I think we are becoming more tolerant of crying, definitely. Well, yeah, but my point was we're easier on the men prepared to do it in public, perhaps because it has a certain novelty value. Whereas a female celebrity or professional person openly weeping might be, well, I know what they'd say if it was somebody at my age hormonal yes which is really frustrating and and unfair but i think that um labels aside what i would say to somebody in the workplace who's been you know feels like they're crying you know out of frustration is that you're it's like a book of stamps you build up your resentments your lack

of boundaries not being able to say uh no and then somebody says can you go make a book of stamps. You build up your resentments, your lack of boundaries, not being able to say no. And then somebody says, can you go and make a cup of tea? And you suddenly find yourself weeping. And everybody says, what's wrong with her? But actually, that's often a backlog of situations. Susie, can I just read some comments to you from our Instagram? This listener says, I cry every day. Often it's a mix of grief and gratitude for people

loved and lost, but sometimes it is frustration. And I cry much more easily at films and TV since I've had a baby. I am never ashamed to cry. I think it helps me to process and acknowledge. Well, that sounds a very healthy attitude to me. Lucky her, yes. Yeah, no, that sounds good, doesn't it? Contrast that to people who come into my consulting room. And, of course, you know, all therapists have tissue boxes. But people in an initial session, if they cry, will apologize as though there's something wrong with them for having that kind of expression of feeling. So, no, go ahead. All right.

Another listener, and I think this is very moving. Last week I cried when my mum sang Secret Love into a microphone. She can't speak very easily due to a stroke and dementia. Well, there is a real moment at which I think anybody would be tempted to cry. Just recently says Natasha, I find I cry at the drop of a hat in

response to being happy, sad, frustrated or moved. Could it be the perimenopause? Quite possibly. Little Rooster says, one of the reasons I hate confrontation is because I can't help but cry. And this is maddening because I usually don't want to cry in those situations. That's one for you, Susie. She doesn't like confrontation and she's angry with herself for crying.

Right. So is the I suppose if we were talking together, we'd ask her what was so difficult about confrontation and would there be a way for her to be able to process that there is some kind of difficulty. She does need to stand up for herself and crying in a way stops her being able to do that. You mentioned that in your therapy sessions, you have a box of tissues.

Two, actually. Two boxes of tissues, right. One for you. Yeah, of course. Here's one for you. No, but it's on my... But it doesn't mean I don't have silent... I do have silent tears in my...

I can be extremely moved and it's not appropriate for me to cry in a therapy session, but I'm very affected by what's happened. But the very presence of the tissues would indicate to me that you are expecting tears. You know, that is a damn cliche of us therapists. And I'm sure it happened 40 years ago that you went, when you were in training or a lot longer for me, you went in and there were tissues in the therapist's office.

And therefore it's just become part of the furniture of a therapist's room. Right, so it is possible to have therapy, successful therapy. Without crying. Without any crying. Absolutely. And there are people who have a very different relationship to tears. For some people, it's an absolute accomplishment to cry. They really can't cry.

And being able to have those tear ducts open and soothe themselves with the tears, which is what it does, might take years. And they might never have been able to cry in their family or in their relationship. For other people, they really do flood. But it doesn't have the same valence for them. It's just a form of expression that they know about themselves. So if your relationship with crying is such that a good cry, and you hear that expression a lot, makes you feel better, you should carry on doing it.

I don't think there's any should here, Jane. I think if you... Well, you're the therapist. Absolutely. It's a good job I'm not. I mean, the point is, if you're crying because you feel vulnerable, you want to do that in a very protective space. Right. OK. Right.

If you cry because you're moved by the pottery, you don't need the protected space. You are in that engagement. They're different kinds of crying. Keith, you were telling me earlier that your producer just says, don't stop crying, mate. It's TV gold. Yes. I mean, we are in showbiz, but it's true, isn't it? No, it's TV gold. Yes. I mean, we are in showbiz, but it's true, isn't it? Well, no, no, it's true.

I mean, I remember the first time I got tearful was the first five minutes of the first series of the first episode. And they kept you ever since. And I remember the director could hear her in the background going, my God, the judge is crying. This is brilliant. Yeah, but maybe you should be a bit more sparing,

some would say. Well, honestly, as I say, it is uncontrollable to the point where, you know, I remember just about to go into the judgment room for the final and turned to Sarah Cox and said, I hope I don't start bloody crying again because it gets on my nerves. I can't get out what I want to say. Maybe we could help you with that. Well, maybe you probably could, yeah.

Yeah, I haven't got a box of tissues in here. And the director came running out of the monitor room monitor room saying for god's sake keith yeah but can i put it to you that part of the appeal of you crying keith is that you're a big bloke yep yes yes i believe so and and and also i do find uh if i do get emotional in front of a potter or or even even someone even a factory owner in in China that has done a particularly brilliant sample, sometimes their reaction says more about them than it does about me crying, to be honest. Yeah, it's quite interesting how some people find it a bit uncomfortable that I'm crying in front of them about something that they've made.

Joanna, because you are a workplace expert, and there's a lot of talk in the newspapers and elsewhere the last couple of days about workplace bullying and allegations flying in all directions, how do you conduct yourself in the workplace if somebody has really upset you? What should you do? I believe clear communication is the key and what we should be looking for is assertive communication,

which is being clear and direct and being able to talk about things yeah but i'm versus aggressive or passive okay let's say after today's program the editor says to me jane you know you're rubbish and you need to do this this and this to improve you weren't very good get better and i'm really upset because this is happening in front of my colleagues how should I behave? Well I think by being able to say that what your reaction is to them dealing with it like that and that you would have preferred to have a quiet word with them and then you might be able to defend yourself with an example of why the show didn't go so well and what you might do next time but it's all about really being able to

particularly if you've got a conflict situation and somebody has been bullying you to go back and say when you did that this is how I felt and to kind of explain it in a different situation I think what's interesting about what you're saying is that the onus is on the person being told off rather than the person who's doing the criticism to reform their behaviour, because that form of speaking to you would be utterly inappropriate, Jane. Well, by the way, I should say she doesn't do this.

Of course she doesn't do it. Why are you able to do that? But it's a relationship, isn't it? Somebody who is in charge in a different way needs to be able to say, look, I don't think this worked quite right, and da, da, da. And that would change the culture of the workplace. We're putting all the stress on the women, particularly to be able to stand up for themselves. But actually, there may be a woman manager who is not clear in her communication

and is not thoughtful about how she delivers a criticism yeah we all the truth sorry i wish we could go on but i mean the truth is we all have a choice about how we conduct ourselves we don't need to be horrible well simple as that yes but we all can feel vulnerable or we can all feel frustrated and it's how we deal with those issues okay um well tissues at the ready okay thank you very much thank you suzy always good to see you. Susie Orbach, Joanna Cross and Keith, lovely to meet you, thank you very much. Thanks, lovely. Keith did slip me a mug earlier.

It's not a euphemism. Don't do those here, thank you. It's Woman's Hour, Keith. Right, that was Keith Brimer-Jones. Tomorrow I'm going to be talking to the first American woman to walk in space, really looking forward to this It's Cathy Sullivan on Women's Hour tomorrow

and on Friday Jenny is going to be doing the programme live from the Women of the World Festival at the South Bank Centre in London Now if you'd like advice on the coronavirus it's important to say there is a programme tonight on BBC One, it's at 7.30 it's called Everything You Need to Know About the Coronavirus so BBC One, it's at 7.30. It's called Everything You Need to Know About the Coronavirus. So BBC One tonight.

If you want to look online, we Googled earlier BBC coronavirus advice and a whole load of really good stuff came up instantly. So if you need more help, that's what you should do. Now, you might well have been watching the documentary series on Channel 4. It's about a women's prison in Derbyshire, HMP Foston Hall. And it's the final one tonight. And the focus this evening is on family links and what it's like for women in prison

trying to maintain a relationship with their children and the rest of their family. Now, Kelly is a young woman who features in that documentary tonight. She is 29 now. She has since been released. And I spoke to her last week and she told me what it was like trying to talk to two young sons on the phone when she was in prison. Well, when I spoke to him, it was like, I don't know how you describe it. Like everything that

was bad disappeared. Everything that was going on that was horrible, bad, everything just disappeared. Everything was good again. It was amazing. What we see as viewers in the documentary is that there is a prison officer with you listening when you are making those calls. Can you describe what that's like? I guess it was nice to know because I'd spent so much time there. I'd built a relationship up with certain officers. So it was like having a friend there to support me in case I needed anything. Like that reassurance, it was nice. We also see in the documentary that you are allowed a day out of the prison. Yeah. And I might think, well, that would be great.

In fact, it appeared to have completely the opposite effect on you. Yeah. For the time I'd spent in prison, that's what I'd got used to. It was my routine. And then, like, you're so scared of, like... At first, I thought they were trying to trick me. Like, if you go out the gates, you get extra time, which would then lead to me not seeing my kids for longer.

So, like, everything you do, you're thinking, am I going to do this wrong, am I going to do this wrong? It was so scary. Do you remember what you did that day when you went out? Yeah. I met up with my family, went for some food. We'd done a little bit of shopping. I pushed my nephew in the pushchair the whole day. It was lovely.

Just to be able to do something like that. Yeah. But then in the film, in the documentary, we see you back in prison and you actually use the phrase, it's good to be home. Yeah. Like I say, it's like what you get used to. It's the routine, it's everything. That's your home. You're honestly telling me that when you do get used to it it becomes a place of safety almost yeah if you think of it like this way um

when you're not in jail there's like silly things like you could get run over or you could get mugged things like that in jail that doesn't happen uh it's kind of like a family so the officers are looking after you um you have your bedtime chill time you have dinner time you have exercise when you do that for so long your routine it's uh comforting i've got to say i haven't been in prison but i've actually visited prisons um as a journalist it's the noise the noise is just never ending yeah yeah I guess you kind of get used to it but um the wing guy was on it was loud but over night time it was nice quiet everyone was doing their own thing it wasn't as noisy as other wings but obviously not everybody gets on well with everybody else yeah Yeah. What was that like?

At first, I guess it's a case of you have to show people that you're not a pushover. It's hard. It is hard because if you're not strong, you get picked on. So it's survival of the fittest, really. If you're weak, then you'll be taken over straight away. You have to show people that you can't be robbed and you can't be pushed around and stuff. It's hard.

And what about the other women who, like yourself, were missing their families? Did you talk about home and about your children much together? Yeah, my last cellmate, actually. We got along so well. She's still in at the moment. She has a little girl and I have my two boys and literally we just sit there for hours talking about our kids and the first things we're going to do when we get back to them.

And you sit there, you have a little cry, you have a little laugh. It's nice, it is, but it also hurts. And your life outside, it's not a question just of walking out and picking the kids up and everything's happy and that's all great. It's got to be more complicated than that, Kelly. Yeah, when I was in jail at the end of my sentence it was just telephone contact and letters um when I got out three to four weeks no it was uh three weeks when I saw saw my children and it was a case of calling up the social uh calling up the ex and just constantly pushing for it. So it's been a big fight.

Now I have a lot more contact than what I used to have. Can I ask how much contact and what you do when you are with them? I see them from 10am till 4pm of a Saturday. We'll go swimming or we'll go to little nature centres. We spend a lot of time with my sister and her two children so we'll just go to the park and stuff just normal family stuff. I don't want to go over the top of them every time I see them. And what do they think about the fact that you're back in their life? They're happy but I guess for any child it would be a difficult transition.

My oldest, my eight-year-old, he has behavioural problems. Not major, but it's affected him from me being there to not being there for a fixed amount of time and then all of a sudden being back into his life again. So he's finding it difficult, but I have to say he's dealing with his emotions absolutely incredibly. And what about his little brother? He goes back into himself, but he's coming out of his shell.

They're getting used to the fact of mummy's going to be out and mummy's going to be there rather than just speaking to her over the phone and through letters. You know, a lot of people, Kelly, think that apart from a few obvious people, Kelly, think that, apart from a few obvious cases, women just shouldn't go to prison.

Do you think that prison helped you? Yes, it saved me. Well, it saved my life and it changed my life completely, done 360. Can you explain how? Before I went to jail, I had anger issues psychological problems obviously that led to the crime then when i was in jail i did a big course called the cameo course which is like intense psychotherapy and the work that i did with the um the doctors they're absolutely like i say they're life lifesavers They make you realise you are worth something.

Why did you think you weren't worth something? I guess it's like your childhood and your teenage years and things. I've not had a very good upbringing. Like, my dad isn't, like, he was a great man sort of thing, but it was a case of other people's lives took over rather than being there for their kids. So when you're on your own sort of thing, you have to fend for yourself,

and that impacts you as you get older. So my case was I didn't trust anybody or anything. I thought everyone was out to get me. Everyone wanted something. What are you doing now? I'm doing various different courses. My probation worker, she'll put me on different courses. I'm seeing my kids more regularly.

And have you got a reasonable place to live? Yeah, where I'm living at the moment, it's quite nice. I've not been out too long, so I'm having to start again from scratch. It's difficult, but I've been through worse situations. That is Kelly, and we wish her the very, very best. And she's sounding positive. Listening, Andrea Black, who's the governor at Foston Hall. Good morning to you, Andrea.

Good morning. It is good to hear Kelly sounding so positive about her life chances, frankly, now. In the documentary that's shown tonight, it is heartbreaking when she makes contact with her kids on the phone again absolutely heartbreaking and unfortunately we see that on a regular basis and about 93 percent of those in my care have got children who are in care 93 about 93 percent right and one of the difficulties is precisely because there are, relatively speaking, so few women in prison in this country, there aren't that many women's prisons. So the chances are they are not going to be that close to sadly, and they are separated all over the country. There's only just under 4,000 women in custody. So they are separated from their children and long-distance from home. And so the impact of those that are left behind for family members,

they suffer financial detriment. They become very anxious and separated and they suffer a great amount of emotional stress and trauma too. Listening to Kelly, it does seem pretty obvious actually that prison gave her the structure and security she hadn't had in the outside world, which was an indictment of the outside world, obviously, but testament to the work that you and your colleagues have done at Foster and Hall. But it shouldn't be that way, should it?

No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't. And a lot of these individuals have been let down. A lot of them come from poverty, broken homes. They've had very little support during their childhood and beyond and they end up getting involved in criminal activity and unfortunately then end up coming to custody and we have to do an awful lot of work and last week's episode was on trauma yeah so we do a lot of work to try and overcome that which Kelly talks about the course that she did this is the cameo the cameo course um which is an NHS funded course it's a two-year program and we run it specifically at Foston Hall

for people with um severe difficulties I know you've worked in men's prisons as well haven't you um isn't it true as well that everything you could say about female prisoners you could equally apply to male you could you could but but women, we tend to see more complexities and more vulnerabilities in women than you do in men. And a lot of the women come in with very little. They may have a roof over their head and children. And they go out perhaps with qualifications, but no roof over their head. And the children have been taken to care. So they go out with a lot less. So we have to do an awful lot of work to try and re-engage families

so that the women at least have got a home to go to and then they can start working to get their children back. And is it fair to say that perhaps families are more likely to stick with a man in prison than a woman in prison? Yes, they do. Quite sadly, that appears to be the case. I think it's just public perception. You know, if a man commits a crime but he's a single-parent dad,

then, well, he's only trying to keep a roof over the head. If it's a woman, then she should know damn well better. And so that seems to be the perception. So women do tend to get abandoned by families and so we have to do our best, as I say, to try and re-engage that. Right. You don't have, at Foston Hall, a mother and baby unit, do you? No, there's none at all in the Midlands. There's only six in the whole of the country

and so mums have to make a choice. If they are eligible to go on a mother and baby unit, do I stay at a prison which is fairly close to my home or do I go to one that's further away? But where I can have my baby? Where I can have my baby. Do you want a mother and baby unit? I would always welcome a mother and baby unit, but it's very debatable whether they are appropriate really. And lots of different people have different views on them.

But I would welcome a Muslim baby unit. I don't think any mum should be... Certainly if she's serving a short sentence, she'll be separated from their child if it could be avoided. But babies, I think, can't stay in prison beyond, is it, 18 months? 18 months. So is that an acceptable cut-off point, do you think? Well, you know, I'm not sure whatever is an acceptable cut-off point.

The argument could be that actually the child would suffer more trauma if they're separated off for 18 months than if they'd have bonded with another adult. But the very obvious civil liberties argument would be you mustn't imprison a child at a time when they'll be aware of their surroundings. I agree I agree and so it is debatable but I've seen advantages as well as as you know some people being separated from the children going to care

and children suffering or the children being with their mum and and being okay. What about rates of self-harm? Because I looked at the prison inspectorate report on Foster Hall and I should say it's, on the whole, extremely positive, but the inspector does take note of the high rates of self-harm. High rates of self-harm do occur in women's prisons, mainly because most of the women have suffered immense trauma and people will self-harm to help exercise the demons really

and it's their way of coping. But you've been in the prison service a while, haven't you? Is self-harm something that appears to be on the increase everywhere? I think certainly for us we see an increase in mental health and a lot of individuals who do self-harm because they've got a diagnosis or, as I say, they suffer from immense trauma. How do you as individuals attempt to tackle it? Because you can't be with these women

24-7, can you? It's just not possible. No, you can't be with them 24-7, but we do have processes and policies and systems in place and we've got staff who are trained to try and do their best to support individuals. And for anyone thinking of a career in the prison service, I have to say you never have to, well, these days documentaries about prisons, they're like bosses, I mean, they are quite frequent, aren't they? Has it increased awareness or understanding of the system, do you think? I hope so. I hope it certainly increased awareness of women's prisons

because we do see an awful lot of male prisons on television. You do, yeah. But women's prisons are more intense as I say because of complexities so we manage them slightly differently to the men's prisons and so I hope that it has

shown that actually a lot of good work goes on. Yeah and is it a good career? Will you look back on your career and think, I actually did my best? Because listening to Kelly, prison has made a positive difference to her life chances. I think it's a wonderful career. And I think it's something that, you know, you can...

It gives you all kinds of challenges and emotions and stresses and trauma yourself when you're managing and helping these individuals but it is exceptionally good when you hear stories like well when you hear stories like kelly's and you and you see people who have progressed and move forward i think it it's it's it's great and i would never regret a moment of my career. Andrea Black, who is the governor of Foster Hall Prison, you can catch that documentary. It's the final episode of it tonight, actually,

on Channel 4 at nine o'clock. And you'll see Kelly when she was in prison and having that heartbreaking first phone conversation with her kids after quite some time when she wasn't allowed to make contact with them. So our best wishes, as I said in the programme too, Kelly. I hope things continue to go pretty well for her. Now, to your thoughts on the programme today,

all the emails and everything else I've got here, it's about crying. Stevie says, I'm an ex-nurse who was well known for not showing my emotions. In fact, my hospital nickname was Spock. I wouldn't let my emotions get a hold of me as I thought I had to stay in charge of the ward and in control. Then after nine years, I left nursing to go professional as a painter and I was hit by the most scary depression.

I cried for about a year and now today I cry over anything, happy or sad. Maybe, Stevie, you've just been storing it all up because you've been being so careful not to display emotion and it all came out when you had the opportunity. I don't know because unlike Susie Orbach, I am not a psychotherapist. Can you imagine? I'd be the world's most useless therapist. I'd just start talking. Anonymous on email says, I agree entirely with what was just

being said about some people being unable to cry. I'm one of them and would find it so helpful sometimes to be able to cry and release stress. Even if I want or need to cry, I still find it very hard to do so. Anonymous, it won't be any comfort to you, but I don't really cry either. And I think the reason I don't cry is because I don't see how it won't be any comfort to you, but I don't really cry either. And I think the reason I don't cry is because I don't see how it would make things any better. So I don't do it. That's not much of a help to you. But anyway, Emma says, crying for me has been a blessing and a curse all my life. It's my default for all emotions, it seems. If others cry near me, I tend to join in and my empathy feels out of control.

In arguments my words fail me and tears take over. Lots of people say at least you can get it all out and that's healthy but since being a small child and I'm now almost 48 it's been something that I've always found very hard to control. Helen on email says, I'm a primary school teacher. I was for nearly 40 years. I've got four children and I've always said to my children, cry until you feel better. Somehow having the permission to cry helped the situation and they often stopped quickly. Oh, that's interesting. Anonymous says, I try to hold in my tears as I want to protect people around me. I don't want to spread my anxiety and fear. I try to be brave. There's all sorts of different experiences and approaches here.

Another listener, Maggie, says, I cry a lot at the news. I cry for people displaced and lost. I cry for the world. I cry for the loss of relatives and friends. I cry for my lost youth. I cry with fear at my ageing. I believe that crying can be a sort of vocation. Just like nuns have believed that their vocation is to pray for the world, I think mine might be to cry for the world. Somebody needs to. When I'm not crying, I'm a positive, happy person with a good family, a good social life and an enjoyment of what life has to offer. And this is from Mary who says, I recently lost my husband and my grandson spends a lot of weekends with me. I struggle sometimes to keep my emotions at bay, but I don't want to cry in front of him. Do you think it's right? Should I let him see I'm upset? I know he worries about me being on my own and I don't want to cry in front of him. Do you think it's right? Should I let him see I'm upset?

I know he worries about me being on my own and I don't want to add to his anxiety. Gosh, I'm not really in a position to answer that question. But I think your grandson will know that he obviously is concerned about you. He'll know that you're upset. I don't think it'll be a problem if he sees that you're crying because you've lost your husband. Why shouldn't you cry? Who wouldn't be upset in those circumstances? This listener says, my family and friends see me as a strong woman and I find I feel I can't cry in front of them. When my mother died, I would cry in the shower in secret so everybody would assume my eyes were red from the hot shower. My brother died seven months later and it all came to a head and I ended up crying in front of my two young daughters.

This unsettled them as they'd never seen me cry. I'm honestly not sure what's best, to cry in front of people or hide and have a cry. Incidentally, yesterday was two years since my brother died and I've been very emotional for the past month. I'm sure you have. And I know anniversaries are very, very significant for some people. Not everybody remembers anniversaries or dates, but I know some people feel these anniversaries really keenly. So to that listener, our best wishes to you. And I hope perhaps this spring, I was in the park yesterday morning and I was taking heart from the fact that for once it wasn't raining.

You could see the occasional crocus and it all just looked a bit more hopeful. So who knows? We might be on the turn. I've been on the turn for years, let's face it. Woman's Hour will be here tomorrow, amongst other things, talking to an American spacewalker.

Looking forward to that. That's on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Hi everyone, Russell Cain here. I've got just a few seconds to tell you about Evil Genius, our hit podcast, 2.5 million downloads in 2019, top 10, where we take people from history, Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher,

John Lennon, and detonate fact bombs around their reputations. It's stuff you don't want to know, but you really do want to know. At the end of a lively debate, my panel of esteemed guests, read, banging, comedians, all have to vote evil or genius. There's no grey area. This is cancel culture turned into an innovative format.

Subscribe to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds now. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.