Woman's Hour - Hair Braiding Chemicals, Jess Kidd, Shanghai Dolls

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

A recent study into synthetic hair, which many black women use to achieve popular hair styles including braids, found that ten samples of the most well-used brands contained carcinogens, and in some cases, lead. It's provoked a big reaction online. Nuala McGovern is joined by academic and author of Don't Touch My Hair, Emma Dabiri, and also by BBC Correspondent Chelsea Coates.New play Shanghai Dolls explores the relationship between two of the most influential women in Chinese history during the cultural revolution; Jiang Qing (also known as Madame Mao – one of the architects of the Cultural Revolution) and Sun Weishi, China’s first female director. Amy Ng the playwright and Gabby Wong, who plays Madame Mao, join Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio.Set in a quiet 1950s seaside town in a boarding house full of strange characters, Jess Kidd’s new novel, Murder at Gull’s Nest, is the first in a new series of books. Jess talks to Nuala about the heroine of the series, the fearless former nun Nora Breen, who has left behind her enclosed order of nuns after 30 years to solve crimes.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, Isabel Kiroga, one of the lead surgeons in the UK's first successful womb transplant, resulting in the birth of baby Amy Isabel. We'll hear what it takes to make history. In this case, Grace's sister Amy donated her womb,

Grace calling it the greatest gift of sisterly love. But what came to mind as you heard this story? I would love to hear your reaction. We're also going to speak to Lydia, who is currently waiting for a womb transplant. Her story is coming up and it is fascinating. As you hear our guests this morning, I'd love your thoughts on what they have to say. To do that you can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media,

we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03 700 100 444. And as you might have just heard today, the author, Jess Kidd, who has written Murder at Gull's Nest that takes us to a sleepy seaside village with a formidable ex-nun and a cast of characters that are a hoot to read will be on. We're also gonna take a look at a study

by Consumer Reports, which is in the United States, but it has found ingredients that can cause cancer were found in 10 synthetic hair products using braids, extensions and other hairstyles popular with black women. And we want to talk about Shanghai Dolls. That is a new play. It's about two Chinese pioneering women whose fraught relationship not only changed the course of their lives but also the course of history. While staying with history let us turn to that story that's dominating almost every news outlet this morning. The first baby born in the UK after a womb transplant. Grace Davidson was a teenager when she was diagnosed with a rare condition that meant she did not

have a uterus. But following a womb transplant, she gave birth earlier this year to baby Amy. Her sister, Amy, yes, the baby was named after her, donated her womb during an eight hour operation back in 2023. And it was the UK's first successful womb transplant. The surgeons have called it an astonishing medical breakthrough and in a moment we're going to speak to Isabel Quiroga, the surgeon who led the transplant team. Let's listen to Grace and her husband Angus, the baby's father, talking about their experience. Well she's a little miracle because we'd never really let ourselves imagine what it'd

be like for her to be here until we sort of saw her come up over the drapes so it was really wonderful. I didn't feel like I was living a very full life, I felt pretty broken and so my quality of life wasn't great I would say. There was a sadness that was over me and the sadness is gone. I think it's just the joy that I feel now. It was an absolute no-brainer we'll look at our daughter every day of her life and remember her auntie who played that crucial role in bringing her into the world and we wouldn't have a family without Amy. Grace and Angus there and they hope to have a second child using the

transplanted womb. Let us speak to a woman at the centre of this story that is Isabel Caroga, the surgeon who led the transplant team at the Churchill Hospital in Oxford. You're very welcome to the program. I want to go back before the birth, Isabel. I want to go to the day of the womb transplant. What was that experience like? Well good morning, Nool, and good morning to all your listeners. Well it was the day of the transplant. It was a very momentous time for us all. In Oxford and in London, a big team came together on that Sunday morning. We have been working towards this for, well, I had personally been working over 10 years to get all the paperwork, all the regulation, all the permissions ready for

this day. So it was very, very important that everything went well. And actually it did go very well and you know here we are two years later with little baby Amy. So let me fast forward. When the operation was a success, the womb transplant, at that point where you're like, this will probably be a viable pregnancy when Grace becomes pregnant? Well, as you say, in any other transplants, and I do kidney and pancreas transplants, when you do a transplant, you see that the organ gets well perfused, like loads of blood going into it, and it starts, for instance, the kidney starts making urine, patients' blood tests get better, but with the uterus, it's a different organ, it doesn't make anything. So it was, and we know from

the international experience that a lot of organs, about one in four, one in five, fail within the first 10 days or so. So it's almost that you can ever relax and can never be so happy. But yes, as the months and the years went by, we realized that yes, she should become pregnant and we should be where we are now. Which is the next tie, the birth of baby Amy Isabel, which we will get to the naming in just a moment. But there is that beautiful photograph that I saw of the team that made this happen. You know, they often talk about it takes a village to raise a child, well it took a village to bring this baby into existence, I think. How did it feel? How

did it feel being there? Oh, it was an incredible moment and you know as a surgeon you do become part of people's lives very often and that's our day-to-day job. But this was totally different. I'm not very often in the delivery room. So for me it was totally different. I wasn't expecting to be part of the surgical team as such. So when Ms Jones asked me to take part and scrub up to assess her on the delivery, it was a very important moment for me. So when we saw the baby being born very healthy and started crying immediately all we felt was joy and and and huge pride. So but seeing their faces, Angus' and

Grace's faces were just an unbelievable moment. I'm getting tingly now. Yeah, thinking about it, because Angus said there was, and Grace, they talked about the amount of love that was in the room, which is such a wonderful thing in something that has obviously been, by the nature of it so medicalized? Oh yes, absolutely. I mean this was a very very closely monitor pregnancy by multiple teams. So just from the transplant side of things, from the gynecological side of things and of course the obstetrics and antenatal

medicine. So it's been a massive, as you were saying, it takes a village and I would say it's just a small city to come to where we're at now. So it's just a great testament to the whole team. A massive team effort. A massive team and everybody working towards that same goal for that couple and for that baby. But this procedure, you talked about 10 years in the making. I'm sure so many people will be wondering, you know, is this possible for many people? You do organ, you work on organ transplants by profession, how difficult is it to find a womb match?

Well, with any transplant, first you have to be blood group compatible with any transplant and also tissue compatible. So we were very lucky with Grace and Amy that they were compatible on both fronts. Equally not many people have a sister or a mother that fulfilled this criteria or a friend or a relative that could become a donor. So that's why we also have our disease program and we hope to be able to help many other women in the UK. Does a womb have to be under a certain age for it to be used? So we would like them to be premenopausal,

but others internationally have managed to do transplants for postmenopausal women, but I think it would be, especially as we are starting, we want to have the most optimal organs to transplant. But when somebody donates their womb, a living donor in this case, will they go into menopause, the donator, the donor? Well it is very important to communicate to your listeners that what we are doing is just removing the uterus, not the ovaries. But we know that a small proportion of women that have undergone a hysterectomy before the menopause, that's a very small proportion of patients I think, that could sort of kickstart

the menopause or to develop any menopause. But not necessarily, as I say, we are removing just the uterus, leaving the ovaries with their blood supply and they should continue functioning. It was interesting, in this case I saw Amy, I believe, or Grace, excuse me, had another sister in addition to Amy who was prepared to donate, as was her mother. Yes. So in a very particular position there. But Grace will be, is taking immunosuppressants for this organ, for the womb, to ensure her body doesn't reject it. How risky is that? Because they do want to have a second child they have said? Yes, so of course when we when we see patients we have to go through a very very thorough consent process by which we explain all possible

risks at the time of surgery but then onwards with the immunosuppressant drugs as you say the anti-rejection drugs and our immune system is protecting us against infection and cancer. What we need to do with the transplant is bring that in that the immune responses down so the immune system just sort of accepts the organ and by reducing the immune system that we are increasing a little bit the risk of infection and cancer. However, what we are, because this organ is only going to be in situ for about, well, four or five years, we will reduce that risk in the long term for grace.

So that's the, possibly why this transplant is a good way forward for some women. We are just trying to minimize the risks, the long-term risks. So it wouldn't be for forever. You wouldn't keep the transplant forever just to keep the uterus. But it's got the function to carry life. And once that that's finished, then we can remove it. Then you would remove that uterus. Could that uterus be used again? Well, I've been asked that loads of times, given how difficult it was to transplant these

tiny tiny vessels, I think it wouldn't really. And actually, with these babies being born through cesarean section, the more sections that you do, more cesareans, the more scar the organ would be and more risky for future pregnancies. And I ask because of my next guest as well because I know there is this waiting list, of course, for people that want to do it but haven't had a womb available to them. Might I get your answer to this? Some might say that a transplant like this wasn't needed, that there's other routes to having a child. What would you respond? Well yes there is, there are other routes. As we know, we could have, women could have surrogacy or adoption. None of these options

are very easy either and in many parts of the world surrogacy for instance is illegal. So it is not illegal in the UK. Some other religions don't permit surrogacy. So for instance for Muslim ladies and some other religions the only option is adoption. So a uterus transplant gives the woman the possibility to carry her own genetically related baby. I think then we are at the very early stages of this transplant and within some more years, I think we will see that it's more accepted and we can give the opportunity to women that want to go through this process of motherhood and who could deny that. You know, as mothers we know that that's probably one of the most important parts of our lives.

And I imagine there will be, you know be a diverse array of opinions as there is on anything that is really a change to the way that we have done things. That's Isabel Carroghe, you're going to stay with us for a few minutes. Thank you so much. She's the lead surgeon. The transplant team that has created really baby Amy Isabel, got your name I didn't even ask you about that but I will come back to it because I want to bring in Lydia for a moment there are about ten more women going through the process of approval for womb transplant cost about 25,000 pounds and the surgical team say there's any funding for two more transplants to take place it's a charity that funds it

one of those women is Lydia Brain she's's on with me now. Welcome Lydia. Good to have you with us. Well first, your reaction to baby Amy Isabel. Oh well, it's brilliant news. I mean I was waiting for it to happen. Obviously we knew when she was, when she had the donation and she had the surgery because it's in the news and I was counting down the time in my head thinking it must be soon having my fingers crossed that there would be you know positive news and there was. So just to know that the UK team with all the training and all the time they've put in have had success and you know that's just a really good sign that hopefully more of us on the waiting list will also have success. Why are you on the waiting list?

So I had a hysterectomy when I was 24. I was diagnosed with womb cancer after having abnormal vaginal bleeding, so really heavy periods, bleeding between my periods. I'm 32 now, so it's been quite a lot of years of getting used to the idea that I couldn't carry a child and that is such well before this clinical trial and this transplants, that was a definite, there was like absolutely zero chance. So I had, I guess, five years of getting my head around absolutely zero chance to now a chance. So that's quite a process to go through. And now obviously being on the waiting list myself, that chance feels quite hopeful and likely and that's nothing short of a miracle really because it has gone from an absolute no

possibility to a possibility so that's you know something quite amazing. So that's a positive as you're seeing it but how does it impact your day-to-day life Lydia being on a waiting list like this? Quite a bit, I mean I can live my life just as I did before but I'm staying quite close to Oxford You know within a certain amount of hours, so I'm not jetting off around the world having lovely holidays But that's a small price to pay really and we're always ready So it's always in our mind if we have plans, you know We always take the car now just in case we need to leave one of us Well me usually can't drink, you know, we always take the car now just in case we need to leave. One of us, well me usually,

can't drink, you know we always have to be able to drive. I want to be in a fit state surgery at any time so I'm a bit better exercising and eating well than I used to be. I even dyed my hair back to brown just so I didn't have to keep up with the maintenance. So even small things, me and my partner, everything we do is kind of preparing, I guess, as many people do when they are trying to have a family. For us, it's just a bit longer. So emotional though it must be, you know, anybody who's gone through infertility of any kind will understand that limbo that you speak of. that limbo that you speak of. But I'm wondering, do you think, do you have a time that you will

stop or get off that list? You know what I mean? I'm just trying to think of your life as a whole. Yeah, so you kind of age out of the list, I guess, at 40. That is the upper limit. Oh, okay. I'm 32. So I feel like, you know, I'm not being kicked off anytime soon at least And me and my partner, you know, the weight has been 18 months already for us So we're kind of embedded in it now if surrogacy and if adoption were quick easy things to do we might consider and adoption were quick easy things to do we might consider stepping off the list to try those but at the moment it still feels fast like the fastest route now especially one with this far along. That's so interesting to me and

I'm sure to our listeners as well that waiting for a womb transplant could be the fastest option to becoming a parent? Yes, probably not start to finish, but from where we are now it certainly is. To go back to square one on something and feel that we're starting from the beginning, I mean mentally as well as anything else would be quite difficult. You know, we feel quite far along now and that mentally is really positive for us. We feel like we're in process of getting the family we want. And do you give yourself an end date? I know you talked about 40, which is eight years away, but could you see yourself staying on the list for a number of years?

Yeah, yeah, I could. We're used to it now and you know the adaptations to our life, you know that I mentioned there, they're small, you know, prices to pay really. We can live as normal and you know the hope that being on the list brings also is mentally a really positive thing for us, so and exciting, you know, so it's brought, as well as not being able to go on holiday, it's the negative, it's brought a lot of positives. So interesting, Lydia. Thank you for sharing your story. I want to go back to Isabel for a moment. You're hearing Lydia's story there and I'm just wondering on your thoughts. Oh, goodness. I can't wait to transplant you, Lydia. I've known Lydia for years now so I really can't

wait to make your dreams come true. Because with this of course I mentioned the funding this is not on the NHS this is privately funded and with that waiting list that we've heard of, 10 women going through the process of approval, only funding for two transplants. So Isabel, will it come to a halt? Well we hope not, we really hope not. That once that we finish our research study, our program, hopefully we'll be able to continue our work with a centrally commissioned NHS commission program. You think that will happen?

I really hope so. And I think that sometimes we forget that infertility is not just an inconvenience, it is a disease. And what Lydia has gone through is terrible and we should and we I think many of your listeners understand that infertility is terrible and it puts incredible burden on the health just not physical but mental health of many many women. We all know somebody that has gone through infertility and we all understand the immense suffering that comes from this. So now we have a way of helping

many of those women. Of course, it's just, it's only for uterine infertility. So we wouldn't be able to help other women that are infertile for any other reason. I understand. It's one specific and of course it's a lot of food for thought. I'm curious what my listeners think. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. I really want to thank Lydia Brain for coming on. We wish you all the best and also Isabel Kiroga the surgeon who made history by leading the transplant team which led to the birth of baby Amy Isabel. Sorry Isabel, how does it feel to have the baby named after you? Oh my goodness, it was wonderful. What an honour and a great pride and I think it's just a recognition of the whole team.

Thank you both so much and we'll continue following this story. 84844 if you would like to get in touch, I'd like to turn now to the true story of a cultural martyr and a cultural oppressor. That is how a new play called Shanghai Dolls has been described. Currently on the Kiln Theatre in North London, it explores the relationship between two of the most influential women in Chinese history during the Cultural Revolution. That revolution was a political movement initiated by Mao Zedong that lasted from

1966 to 1976 with a stated aim to purge the Communist Party off his opponents and instill revolutionary values in the younger generation. Well, Jiang Qing, known as Madame Mao, one of the architects of the Cultural Revolution and Sun Wei-shou, China's first female director, are the women at the centre of this story. I have Amy Ng, the writer of the play, and Gabby Wong, who plays Madame Mao with me in studio. Welcome to both of you. Amy, perhaps you'd like to tell us a little bit about these two women. Yes, hello. Thank you for having me. So of the two, Madame Miles, the more famous

one, she was Maudadon's wife. So growing up, I'd kind of known her as, you know, the butcher of the Cultural Revolution, and who was responsible for the butcher of the Cultural Revolution and who was responsible for the deaths of millions. And, but then I found out later that actually in the 1930s she had been this really radical feminist that was really interested in emancipation of women and female solidarity. And she'd become famous playing Nora in a doll's house. So I became really curious as to how she, you know, evolved into this person who, you know, committed crimes against humanity. And when I was researching her life,

I mean, I discovered that she had been friends with Sun Wei Shi, who was, as you said, China's first female director, who was a premium join lieslai's adopted daughter. And even though they were really good friends in the 30s, she had gone on a really different artistic path from Jiang Qing and came to a very different understanding of what a truly revolutionary art was, what art for the people meant. So on the eve of the Cultural Revolution, she had created this enormous play with oil workers and her and her adoptive father, Zhou

Enlai, wanted to tour this place, play across the whole country and make a film of it. And, you know, as an example of, you know, this is actually true proletarian art. And Jiang Qing saw both Zhou Enlai as a huge threat to her because she wanted to be Mao's successor. And she also saw everything that Sun Weishu represented as antithetical to her understanding of what a proletarian art was, which at that point was propaganda.

So these two women we mentioned, Madam Mao, also known as Jiang Qing, Sun Wei-shu, they have a number of names that they go through as their various identities become revealed. But what we do know is that they were two women that were friends as artists trying to make something within theatre. One goes on to be the partner of Mao Zedong or Chairman Mao and the other Sun Wei-shul instead goes to be the first female director in China. Madam Mao, you say there's more known about Amy, you mentioned the word butcher as well when it came to the cultural revolution. I'm wondering, Gabby, what did you know about Madame Mao and what was it like to play her? Trying to encapsulate 50 years of history.

Wow. In an hour, 20 minutes. In an hour, 20 minutes is not an easy thing. Had to go into a deep dive of Madame Mao's life because as Amy said, Madame Mao has been completely vilified and trying to find out how she, the evolution of her becoming a serious actress and actually very, very ferventious, really larger than life to becoming this embittered woman. It's such a journey. And how did you understand that? I was going to say revolution of a figure, but that doesn't make any sense.

Let's say an evolution figure. How did I understand it? Why did it happen? Right. Because she was this person that was looking for the liberation of women, for example. She was in Ibsen's Doll's house, which is all about Nora, a central character, who is trying to escape the strictures or the restraints of the patriarchy. Well, from what on the outside, when you look at it, you kind of think, oh, this woman is every step of the way She is trying to gain power

She's trying to get higher up in the Communist Party but as an actor to try and empathize with her is because of the circumstances as she's been put in and Every time she's trying to survive And it's all about her survival even trying to become Mao successor it's about surviving because as we know in history and this is not a spoiler that she gets put on trial and ends her life in a quite tragic way as well so she was trying to survive even at the height of her power trying to just be.

So do you have empathy for her? I do have empathy for her. I do have empathy for her. I'm not trying to exonerate her for what she did, because what she did was pretty questionable and problematic and horrific, actually. But I do have empathy for her. I became an actor myself trying to tell stories so people learn about stuff. And that's what she was. That's what she was trying to do. She was trying to tell stories to change the world, to change things that she saw that was wrong.

It seemed though, Amy, that women at that point could not get ahead unless having some sort of male benefactor, patron, partner. And perhaps that was part of what drove these two women that should have been best of friends throughout their lives apart. Yes, absolutely. And in fact, my central metaphor for this play comes back to Nora in a doll's house. I feel that Jiang Qing, she, you know, as Nora, she wanted to like leave her husband's house, bang the door, you know, go towards freedom, and she just finds herself trapped in a bigger house and

with like, you know, a more authoritarian husband. And to some extent, that is also true of Sun Wei Shi, that even though they were enormously privileged women in some ways because they had, you know, one had a powerful husband, the other had a powerful adoptive father, ultimately they were trapped by those expectations of patriarchal society and sacrificed to it. And you talk about the sacrifice there, Gabby was mentioning the terrible death of Madame Mao. But soon died in prison following torture after Madame Mao conspired to have her arrested. I mean with friends like that.

Tell us a little bit however about having to portray those deaths on stage. I've always been very worried about portraying violence against women, especially because you know, it has historically, I mean, there is a voyeuristic quality to it. So I think, I mean, Madame Malle's death is offstage. Since we do portray the torture bit, but it's in a really stylized dance sequence. I mean, it is very intense, but it's not, it's not like loads of blood. It's not graphic, you know, I don't think they're gonna be fainting people like in the years.

Yeah. I went to see that one too, yeah. Yeah, so it's not that. And so I think as a writer, I was trying to portray more the mental and emotional violence and put less emphasis on the physical. Yeah. Do you understand why their friendship fell apart?

Yeah. So I really feel like a female friendship is, you know, it's an expression of solidarity in a patriarchal society where women are pitted against each other. And even though I think Sun held fast to that, and in my version of what happened, even right before her death, was saying, look, we can still be friends. You can still, there's an exit ramp,

you don't have to be this monster. But Jiang Qing, I think, as Gabby was saying, that impetus to survive, you know, overrode that, I guess the emancipatory potential for solidarity between women. And that's a tragedy. That was the tragedy. Amy, you describe yourself as a British Hong Kong writer. These women lived through incredibly turbulent times in Chinese history.

How much is their story impacted on your story? And well, I mean, you know, the times they're living in right now, I think the story of two artists that are trying to maintain their artistic integrity in the face of political oppression and censorship and also the story of two women that are trying to be there for each other in a society which pits them against each other. That's really resonant for me. I mean, I do feel like my, I mean, my whole life has really been like a process of like questioning all the assumptions about gender roles and what's appropriate for women to do, you know, which I grew up with. So, I mean, that's really personal.

And right now I'm really feeling the acuteness of like, what as artists can we say? So the pivotal conflict between Sun and Jiang Qing is about the great famine. You know, because, you know, Sun's like, these are terrible stories. Like 20 million people died. How can we not tell them? And Jiang's like, no, we can't. It's a backdrop that you don't go because, Gabby, you were born in Hong Kong. I was also born in Hong Kong.

Yeah. And I'm just wondering after doing or as you do this play, are you thinking about your background, where you're from? All the time. But it's it's what like Amy said something to me yesterday. It was brought up in conversations that we are all immigrants of. We're all children of immigrants from the Cultural Revolution. And and history is cyclical and we can sometimes see it happening again and maybe it's happening now and

yeah really really aware of the integrity you have to hold as artists of what you want to say and what you can say and how you can say things that you might want to say. Shanghai Dolls written by Amy Ng with Gabby Wong as Madame Mao and Millicent Wong as Sun Wei Shul is at the Kiln Theatre in North London and it's on until the 10th of May. Thanks to you both. Thank you. Thank you. Now I want to turn to the topic of hair.

84844 if you want to get in touch on anything we've been speaking about. But hair, it is important to so topic of hair. 84844 if you want to get in touch on anything we've been speaking about. But hair, it is important to so many of us. A good hair day could be shorthand for perhaps a good day. Well there's a recent study into commonly used hair products and it has caused alarm among some women, particularly black women. The American nonprofit organization Consumer Reports tested samples of synthetic hair which many black women use to achieve popular hairstyles, including braids. And they tested 10 samples of the most well used brands of synthetic hair and found that all of them contained carcinogens and in some cases lead. Now this provoked a big reaction, big discussions online and we can hear more about it. In a moment

I'm going to be speaking to the academic and author of Don't Touch My Hair, that is Emma Dabry, but first I'm joined by the BBC correspondent Chelsea Coates in studio, welcome. Thank you, hi Nila. Good to have you with us. First tell us a little about the use of synthetic hair, just how popular it is and a little bit more about the styles it's used for. Yes, so black women have been using synthetic hair for decades to achieve what are called protective styles. So they're called protective because they kind of lock away your hair from the elements and protect it from daily styling and manipulation.

So you're not having to straighten it all the time or do any other things with it. And braids are one of the most popular types of these styles because they're thought to help your hair grow because you're locking it away, you're not manipulating it all the time. But also they're really low maintenance. You know, you go and get it done, you kind of weave the synthetic hair into these tiny bits of your hair. It takes hours, sometimes up to four hours. But after that's done, it's really low maintenance, you don't really have to do anything else to it. So it's really convenient if you have a busy lifestyle and then you have the kind of health benefits or the purported health benefits on top of that.

So that's what's fed into making it so popular. So this report is from the American Consumer Reports, which is very well known across the states. What did they find? So they looked at 10 popular brands of synthetic hair and they tested them for three main types of chemicals. So the first one is carcinogens. So those are chemicals that are thought to be cancer-causing. An example of those is benzene, which has been linked to leukemia in previous studies. They found carcinogens, types of carcinogens, in all 10 of the brands that they tested.

carcinogens in all 10 of the brands that they tested. The next type of chemicals that they looked for was lead, which is known to be toxic, especially in high amounts. They found that in nine of the 10 brands that they tested. And especially, they say this is a special cause for concern because a lot of the brands they looked at are targeted to children. And if you're using these brands over a long period of time you have a long period of exposure to them they say that there are concerns about having developmental issues in the future and then the last type of chemicals they looked for are volatile organic compounds or VOCs for short so one of the most popular types of these is acetone which you'll know of of probably from nail polish

remover. So they looked at those and they found those in all of the products as well. And they said this is a concern because when you get braids, for example, at the end you dip the tips of your braids into hot water and that's to kind of seal the synthetic hair into your hair to make sure all your hard work doesn't unravel. And they say that when you do that, you could be releasing these gases and inhaling them. And that could be an issue, especially if you have conditions like asthma and kind of trigger other respiratory issues. So that all sounds very alarming. But how rigorous was the study?

Right. So it's important to remember that this study wasn't published in a peer reviewed academic journal. So it's not been subject to the kind of rigorous assessment from other scientists that look at your work and how you've got to your findings. Consumer Reports, as you said before, does have a long history of product testing but this has not been published in that kind of journal so there should be some caution with how we look at it. Yes, they have called it Consumer Reports, a pilot project. They thought the results were important enough to start the conversation, but many have called for more research.

But what about the women you've spoken to who use this hair? Yes, so there's been a lot of mixed reactions, especially online, as you mentioned before. Some people are saying they're going to change their habits, but other people are saying that they wouldn't abandon the style. So I went to a braiding salon in North London to get their thoughts. What I would love to see is maybe I think more of a commitment to making sure that things are safer for us, especially as black women right, rather than telling us that some sort

of our historical traditional practices are wrong or inherently dangerous to us. We are pleased that the research has come out but we want more to be done as to what are the next steps in making the hair safe all the time and having the chemicals that shouldn't be in there out completely. So I think it's awful that companies have been doing this for years to black women. And I think we deserve better than that.

I think we need plastic-free braiding hair. I think it's biodegradable, so it's good for the planet as well. Are there alternatives? Yes, there are two main alternatives. The first one is human hair. So that tends to be less popular than synthetic hair because it's a lot more expensive,

but also there are concerns about how it's sourced. So it's often imported from Southeast Asia, and there have been cases before where it's been shown to be forcibly taken through exploitation. So it tends to be less popular. And the second type, which is a lot newer, which is emerging now, is kind of newer types of synthetic hair. So these are marketed as being biodegradable or plastic 3, or being made from organic fibers. So I spoke to a company that specializes in both of these types. It's called Rukahair.

They make synthetic hair with collagen fibers. I spoke to their co-founder, Tendai Moyo, about her reaction to the study, and also if she'd seen fear from women. If you're looking at any area of health care, you will have multiple studies and those studies might infer different things, there might be a different angle that people focus on. I think what's dangerous is not having enough of them, because not having enough of them, you have one perspective, one lens. And that one lens

currently right now is pretty scary, right? And then I think on the fear part I do find it quite draining and exhausting when these things are put into the atmosphere without any real solution. So that is one of the brands Ruka speaking to Chelsea. Women might be concerned listening to this what should they do? I think they should take in mind the advice that's come from consumer reports but also from the other health experts that I've spoken to, for example, cancer research that say there simply isn't enough research out there yet to conclusively link cancer to synthetic care or any other kind of serious health conditions. This is a really burgeoning field of study. There's not much research out there yet. And so it's kind of keep posted and keep doing the work to kind of see what's not much research out there yet and so it's kind of keep

posted and keep doing the work to kind of see what's out there but there's no need for concern at this stage when using synthetic hair. Chelsea, thank you. I want to bring in the academic and author Emma Dabury. Good to have you with us. Emma, your reaction first after what you've been hearing. Hi Nuala, how are you? Good. Yeah, when I first heard about this development, it probably would have been like a couple of years ago. Yeah, just deeply disappointing. You know, I actually, I wasn't like necessarily like, I wasn't necessarily completely blown away by surprise that these products were full of dangerous ingredients and these potentially life-threatening chemicals just because of

how so many things are, so many products are mass produced in our society. But I think, yeah, when I, because I used to use synthetic braided hair all the time and I had never really made that connection or considered that there were health, potentially health risks associated with it. And completely kind of in, under the belief that these were protective styles as they are called and that they were the healthy kind of wholesome alternative to chemically relaxing our hair, you know, wearing our hair in a natural style. But again, I find the name protective styles interesting given that there's now been this research conducted. It also makes me

think of how we refer to chemically straightened hair, which is relaxed hair, which is again, this really like innocuous kind of gentle term like protective style. So you there's this kind of like association with you doing something that is good for you, that is healthy, but in actual fact, it's quite dramatically contrary to that. And that the words matter, I'm sure. But with this, if people were to use alternatives, for example, Emma, there's a cost associated with that. Can you put it in context a little bit for how women are making decisions about how much to spend, for example, when it comes to their hair?

Yeah, so I stopped. I stopped you. I stopped. I guess box braids were the main style where I used synthetic hair. And then I started to just like, I wanted a different look, like I wanted to get goddess braids, I wanted to get boho braids, which is what I have at the moment. And because that you braid the top of the hair and then you leave most of the hair out. If you have synthetic hair for that style, it just it tangles really easily and gets matted looking very quickly. So it was kind of for aesthetic reasons that I started using human hair before I had realized these potential dangers with the synthetic.

It is much more expensive, with the synthetic. It is much more expensive, but I see it as an investment. And so there's only one hairdresser I go to, she sources the hair, and then I reuse the same hair over and over. So in a way, it is more sustainable, and I'm not kind of like just discarding the hair.

After I take the braids out, I'm using it again. But natural hair would cost so much more, right, than some of the synthetic. Yeah, it's much more. I mean, you don't necessarily have to buy the hair each time. That initial investment, yeah, is a lot more. But actually, when I do more traditional styles like cane rows or variations of cane rows where the hair is braided to the scalp, I actually had stopped using extensions for that as well. And again, synthetic extensions, which I used to use

when I would do those styles. But again, that was for like aesthetic purposes and I also feel it was like through writing Don't Touch My Hair and really like studying the the history because obviously these are like you know kind of hairstyles that have a long and storied history and I started actually wanting to have a more traditional look so when I would do like cane rows for instance, I stopped adding extensions because I actually wanted it to look more kind of more traditional. So I also think we could do some we could it would be good to see you know kind of like traditional Yoruba hairstyles or African hairstyles to see kind of more representation of them

where there aren't extensions added because that all looks really beautiful. Do you think just before I let you go, Emma, that the fact this study, preliminary study, needs more research, not peer reviewed, I just want to underline that, but even the conversation that has started, will it change the way women use synthetic hair? I think it might be the beginning of a change and I think it's really crucial that there is urgently you know more research done and I think just saying oh well this isn't peer-reviewed it just really isn't good enough like that's that's shocking that there isn't that there isn't peer-reviewed research that's being

done on that so I think that has to happen that has to happen imminently and then also I just think yeah kind of using more synthetic hair that is created in ways, that is produced in ways that avoid these damaging ingredients and materials, so like Rukka hair for instance. And I honestly just think more awareness would help because when I was using those, when I was using those types of hair I wasn't thinking about this. And also not only do you dip the hair in water, but for me, usually we would burn the end of my hair with a lighter. I think that's also very typical and happens a lot. Chelsea is nodding along. And of course, it's not just the people who are getting their

hair done. It is the people that are doing the hair as well that need to be brought into the conversation. And the smell that would be released when that happened. Like, I know that smell so well. Chelsea is laughing here as well. It's bringing back memories. Thank you both for spending some time with us. Emma Dabry and Don't Touch My Hair is her book and Chelsea Coates as well who brought us that report. I do want to reiterate a small study. Little is known about the long-term risks so we

will of course stay across this story as it develops. I want to turn to instead a quiet 1950 seaside town and a boarding house full of unusual characters, including an ex-nun and a mystery. These are all the perfect ingredients for your news's newest even. Cozy Crime Fix. It is Murder at Gold's Nest by Jess Kidd. It's the first in a new series of books set in the fictional town of Gor-on-Sea featuring ex-nun, fearless Nora Breen. She's left behind her enclosed order of nuns after 30 years to go and solve crimes. I want to bring you a reading by Jess where Nora meets Irene Rawlings.

This is the housekeeper of Gull's Nest. Not the landlady, but it's like she is. She basically runs it with an iron fist and she takes Nora, who has just arrived into the boarding house, through the extensive house rules. No visitors, says Irene, no burning of coal isn't supplied by myself at three shillings a bucket. There are no electrical fires for your convenience at Gull's Nest, so don't ask. No livestock of any kind is permitted in the house, either on foot or upon your person. No cooking in the room except

a boiled kettle, what's provided. You may draw the water from the bathroom but only on your designated days. All meals are served in the dining room and you are expected to be prompt. The times are noted on the dining room door. No refreshments are offered outside these times. Luncheon is not available so don't ask. Borders are not served meals in their room on a tray, not even if they are infirm. Housekeeping is weekly on a day of my choosing. Borders must vacate your rooms weekday between 9am and 2pm. The parlour is for guest use between 3pm and 10pm and all day Sunday.

You'll find the privy in the garden behind the rhododendrons. Read there by Jess Kidd. Hi Jess. Good to have you with us. Good morning. Thank you so much for that. I have to say I love the character of Irene Rawlings and also love Nora, who's quite bemused by the whole experience of coming to live at Gold's Nest. used by the whole experience of coming to live at Gold's Nest. Tell me more about Nora Breen, the ex-nun who wants to be a detective. Oh, thank you. Yeah.

So I think the original inspiration for Nora came from my long term fascination with people who join religious communities. And I come from a very big, wild London London Irish family and I went to a Catholic faith school and I was taught by a former nun and I was absolutely fascinated as to why she joined an order and why she left it but I was never quite brave enough to ask. She was fairly formidable actually, I must admit. And so it stuck in my mind, but really when it comes to writing Nora, I really wanted this idea of a sleuth with an outsider's eye and I thought what better way to give her this was to create somebody who's been

effectively dead to the world for 30 years. So this mystery, this disappearance of her favorite novice, propelled her back into the world and now what we have is a really defamiliarized viewpoint. This whole world is new to her and so we sort of adapt to the world alongside her. And so the other thing I wanted to explore with Nora is how the traits that she may have repressed as a nun all through those years with the Carmelite order, an enclosed order, after taking the vow of poverty and chastity, how these repressed traits will be useful as a

detective. So Nora is very curious, she's very questioning, she's willful, but she has also learnt to live in community. So she brings with her a really interesting set of skills. So she's very patient, she has a lot of empathy. But really the thing that I love about her is that she had a life prior to joining the monastery. life prior to joining the monastery so she comes with her own set of demons and she's middle-aged she's fearless and really with her I wanted her to take up

space and I wanted her to be the type of detective that you would underestimate at your own peril really so for me Nora is the perfect detective for the 1950s and also for now, because I think increasingly we're starting to value connection over consumption. And that's kind of what Nora does. You know, there's so much of it that resonates with me. I had an aunt that left an order. Also, I was fascinated by her and never got to the bottom of it.

Also fascinated by enclosed orders or cloistered orders. I used to be sent down to deliver bread to them when I was a child and it'd go through the little metal gate. So that, you know, really struck me. The other part is setting it in the 1950s in this seaside town and all those little details that you illustrated so beautifully in the reading that you gave us. Why did you pick that time? You talk about there about, you know, returning perhaps in a way to that era. Well, it was important to me to pick a person, pick people,

and pick a time and a place that I would want to return to. So this is the first in a series and previously my novels have been standalone. So it was important to me to have a time and a place with a great texture and with a great grittiness to it. So specifically 1953 is in the shadow of the second world war and so it's a time of recovery and rebuilding and it's also a really interesting time, still quite repressive in terms of a lot of attitudes, but the old order is gradually changing and there's changing gender roles. So this felt like a really interesting time.

So the Time of the Place intrigues and it's set, as you mentioned, in Gore on Sea. Sorry about that. I just have to do it. It's your book. You can do what you want. I can choose these cheesy names. Rich is a fictional town on the Kent coast and so we're starting to move into the heyday of the British seaside holiday, which again is a really fascinating period of contrasts

and so we have a certain innocence versus a seediness that happens. And this austerity still post-war, but with a hint of freedom, a suggestion of hope. And so this is a place where everyday rules are starting to be relaxed, but not too much. And so really it was a sense of a place that people could come and reinvent themselves. Yes, yes, which I think seaside towns, you feel that sometimes in them. I want to talk about you just for our last minute as well, Jess, if that's okay. April is Autism Acceptance Month. You were recently diagnosed with autism, I understand. How has it fed into writing this book, if it has? Well, I think probably, I mean, I'm one of the late diagnosed people. I mean, we

talk now about lost generations of older women who are just getting an autism diagnosis. It came about from a question from my daughter who was 25 at the time and she said mum do you think you might be autistic and I said well okay I'll look it up and see and I thought yeah actually yeah you've got some grounds there so I had to self-fund and I went to a neurodevelopmental psychiatrist and I was fortunate to be in a position where I could do that. And this is not to say that self-diagnosis isn't absolutely viable if that's another route. So really it was just my understanding had to shift in the way that the way autism presents

in women and girls is different to the stereotypes that we know about, which is often based on how autism presents in men and boys. So really I think it's always fed into my work. My previous book, The Night Ship, has a neurodivergent child character called Gil. And I feel Dinah or Dina, as we pronounce it, in this kind of gives a little of that as well. I'm going to have to leave it there but I have to say it's such a great fun read. I hope Nora Breen comes back in many iterations but I want to thank for today Jess Kidd whose new book is Murder at Gold's Nest. Thank you so much for

joining us Jess. Tomorrow join me we'll'll have Kate Nash, singer-songwriter. I'll see you at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The story of how a 1960s headline about a secretive factory opening just outside Belfast led me on a trail into corporate espionage, cover-up and death. From New York to Northern Ireland and countless UK factories in between, few towns are left untouched by the legacy of asbestos. Newly discovered documents reveal who knew what and when, and perhaps explain

why workers at that curious factory opening had to sign oaths of secrecy. Assume nothing, kill or dust. Listen first on BBC Sounds.