Woman's Hour - Haley Bennett and Virginia Woolf, The Spinster Cookbook

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Virginia Woolf’s Night and Day is out today in cinemas. It’s billed as an unromantic-comedy set in the early 20th century and tells the story of young aristocrat Katharine Hilbery, who dreams of studying astronomy at university, but society’s expectation is that she should marry. Anita Rani is joined by Haley Bennett who plays the determined lead character and Anna Snaith, Professor of Twentieth-Century Literature in the English Department, King’s College, London.Andy Burnham has won in the Makerfield by-election, paving the way for a leadership challenge to Sir Keir Starmer. Baroness Harriet Harman, currently the Prime Minister's Adviser on Women and Girls, spoke this morning about the need for there to be a woman in that likely contest. Anita asks the BBC's Chief Political Correspondent Henry Zeffman why there are currently none in the running.With only men allowed to ascend the throne and only a Princess on offer, Japan’s Parliament has drafted a bill with some solutions. Could the country ever see a female emperor and what would this look like? Anita speaks to BBC Tokyo Correspondent Kurumi Mori and Professor of Japanese Studies at the University of Sheffield, Jennifer Coates. A new study from the University of Copenhagen in Denmark has raised questions about whether each additional hour to an eight-hour working day of bending forward, walking and standing may increase the risk of pregnancy loss in the first trimester. This is an observational study and does not prove cause and effect. BBC health reporter Michelle Roberts explains.Eli Davies has embarked on a nostalgic and cultural exploration of the single woman's kitchen, unpacking women’s complicated history with domesticity and how their choice to couple up may shape mealtimes and their relationships with food, cooking habits and self-care. Eli’s book The Spinster Cookbook: Culture, Politics and Pleasure in the Single Woman’s Kitchen is also a story of rebellion, explaining how cooking for one as a woman can become an act of care, defiance, pleasure, and self-expression.

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Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions, saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. Tees and C's Apply. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts

and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Award. Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4.

Good morning and welcome to the programme. As Andy Burnham wins the Makerfield by-election and is expected to launch a leadership challenge to the Prime Minister, we ask, why are there no labour women currently in the running? Could Japan ever have a female emperor? The current emperor has a daughter, but it's only men who can ascend the throne and he doesn't have a son,

so the Japanese Parliament are considering what the alternatives could be. Hmm, I wonder. Virginia Woolf's novel, Night and Day, about a young woman desperate to study physics has been turned into a film with an incredible cast. Haley Bennett, who plays the lead, will be here as well as hearing about the film. We'll be finding out about the author and her life.

And what is a spinster cook? How do you look after yourself as a woman when you find yourself outside of the conventional couple or family dynamic? Do you cook for yourself? Does it feel different or radical making delicious dinners? For one, do you even bother?

Maybe you're more of a ready meal. kind of gal. Or do you shudder at that thought? We'll be talking to writer Ellie Davis about her new book, The Spinstrester Cookbook, a cookbook with a twist. So this Friday morning, I want you all to reveal to me what you cook for yourself when it's only you, no one else. A solo meal. Whether it's something you do regularly or a rare moment of solitude, what do you or would you choose to feed yourself? Do you go big and elaborate, simple and classic, maybe oysters and champagne? or beans on toast and a cup, do you prefer to use a recipe book

or the food of your heritage and how do these solo meals make you feel? The more foody details we can get, the better and get in touch in the usual way. The number is 84844. That's the text number. You can voice note me or WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444. And if you'd like to email the program,

please go to our website. But the text number once again, 84844. Now, you will no doubt have already heard the results of the three by-elections that took place yesterday. Two in Scotland and one in Makerfield, the Scottish Conservatives taking Aberdeen South from the SMP and the SMP claiming victory in Arbroath and Broughty Ferry by-election. And Andy Burnham winning Makerfield, paving the way for a leadership challenge to Kier-Starma. We expect a Burnham victory rally to start in about half an hour. But earlier this morning on the Today programme,

Baroness Harriet Harmon, currently Prime Minister's advisor on women and girls, spoke about the need for there to be a woman in that likely contest. There must be a woman in the contest. We cannot have a male beauty parade again. And there are a number of women in the cabinet who could set themselves forward. So if there is to be a contest, if that's what is agreed by those three men. Now, we should make clear. No leadership contest has been announced at this point.

But to discuss further, I'm joined by BBC. Chief Political Correspondent Henry Zephman. Welcome to Women's Hour, Henry. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Your response to Harriet's comment there. It can't be another male beauty parade. I think it's going to be, is my analysis. Or rather, it feels this morning from all the Labour MPs

I've been hearing from since the small hours across the ideological divides of the Labour Party, it feels pretty likely that there's only going to be one candidate other than Sir Keir Starrma if when this leader, leadership contest takes place and it's Andy Burnham. But obviously that sits in the context of the Labour Party, which is about 125 years old, having never had a permanent female leader. Harriet Harmon herself, when she was depsy leader, stood in as acting leader on a couple of brief occasions, as did Margaret Beckett before her. But the Labour Party has only ever elected men to lead it. Yeah, in its 120 year history. Yeah, and for a party that often calls itself the Party of Equality, it's by their own admission often. embarrassing. I mean, there's an extra layer to it, which is that various women have stood in

different leadership elections over the last few decades, but every woman who stood has always finished behind all of the men in the contest. So it is, I mean, it's a really striking trend, and I think at this point it is a trend, and obviously made more embarrassing for the Labour Party by the fact that the Conservatives are now on their fourth female leader, and three of them have been Prime Minister. And of course, West Streeting may be in that running as well. Well, he intends to be. I mean, he's been very open about that. But I'm speaking this morning even to pretty strong supporters of West Streeting who are questioning whether the momentum behind Andy Burnham is such that actually a Streeting leadership campaign might not plausibly actually get off the ground.

There are, as we know, senior women in the Cabinet. There's, I'm thinking, Education Secretary Bridget Phillips and Home Secretary Shibonah Mammud, Foreign Secretary Yvette Cooper and Deputy leader Lucy Powell. So what might be holding them back? Well look, I mean, I think there's a narrow answer and a broad answer. The narrow answer is that Labor MPs, mostly though not exclusively, are extremely worried about reform UK and are also worried about losing to reform UK because they lose votes to their progressive flank, the Greens, the Lib Dems and so on. And they look at what Andy Burnham has done overnight in Makerfield and think if he can replicate that for them as leader of the Labour Party as Prime Minister, then that is a route to electoral success at the next general

election. So that's the sort of specific answer in this specific context. But more generally, obviously there is a really interesting question about why over the last few months and a year or so, as the Labour Party has begun to entertain more and more seriously the question of replacing Keir Starman, just less than two years after you won a general election, there is a question about why more of those top women who've had big jobs in his cabinet haven't been considered. I mean, it's worth saying that it was by no means a given in the aftermath of the May elections, which really prompted this leadership crisis for Kirstarmer. It was by no means a given that Andy Burnham would find a route back into Parliament.

And if he hadn't found a route back into Parliament, then I think that at least one of those women you named, Angela Rainer, but probably at least one other, would have ended up as a result. leadership candidates. Yeah, well, of course, Angela Rayne, as you just mentioned, that investigation has been resolved. It's potentially frees her up to make a bid. I mean, it would do, but again, I think she's going to end up supporting Andy Burnham. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it certainly frees her up to return to the cabinet in a very big role under Andy Burnham, if it is him. You know, some people say that she could become deputy prime minister again, because that's not necessarily tied to the position of deputy leader of the Labour Party. So Harriet Harmon, who we

heard from earlier, was Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, but Gordon Brown never gave her the title of Deputy Prime Minister. Currently the Deputy Prime Minister is David Lammy, but the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is Lucy Powell. Lisa Nandy spoke of standing as being a bruising experience. Yeah, I think it's definitely the case that some of the women who have stood for Labour leader and Lisa Nandi was among two women who lost to Kirstama in 2020, the other being Rebecca Long Bailey. You know, some of them find it an incredibly bruising experience. I mean, some of those who win the Labour leadership, or indeed the leadership of any party, find the sort of intense attention from party members, but of course also from the media and the public, to be a pretty

bruising experience. And I'm sure that is part of the background to this trend. Yeah. Do you know what members of the women's parliamentary Labour Party are saying? Well, many of them find it very embarrassing. The Labour Party has never had a female leader. But again, in practice, in this specific instance, you know, some of the most prominent female Labour MPs and some of the most prominent in the women's PLP, the sort of organised sort of campaign for greater female representation within Labour,

are backing Andy Vernon to succeed Kirsta. And we've just got news in breaking that Keir Stama says he will stand in a Labour leadership contest should one be triggered after Andy Burnham returns to Westminster. It's the mood of defiance that we were expecting Keir Stama to strike this morning. It sits radically at odds with what Labour MPs, or many Labour MPs, not all, but many were hoping to hear from him this morning. And I think the question now is how they respond over the course of the day and perhaps over the course of the weekend to Kier Starmes' Defiance

and whether anyone does actually seek to trigger that formal contest. Henry, thanks for joining us this morning. That's BBC's Chief Political Correspondent, Henry Zephman. 84844 is the text number. Now, a new film. Virginia Woolf's Night and Day is out in cinemas today.

It's based on the author's second novel published in 1919 and tells the story of a young aristocrat, Catherine Hilbury, a wannabe astronomer who struggles to achieve her personal dream of studying the stars because of the realities of the early 20th century society, which continually nudges her towards marriage. Well, with me is the actor Haley Bennett,

who plays Catherine and Anna Snaith, a professor of 20th century literature in the English department, King's College London, who has a special interest in Virginia Woolf. Welcome both of you. Haley, tell us about Catherine. Tell us about your character and what the film's about. Catherine is an aspiring astronomer, as you said.

She is from a family of eccentrics, and she is trying to create more space for herself. And she would like to represent science as a woman. did you want to play this part? Well, I love Virginia Woolf. I really loved the female aspect of the storytelling on and off screen. I was pursued by, I was pursued hard by Tina Garavi, our wonderful director. She apparently fell in love with my Instagram and said that she could feel my soul through it, which is, to me, that's a powerful.

Powerful. But yes, we had a love affair And it was so wonderful to tell this story That you know so much about Yes, Anna, you do know a lot about it But not one of your, you haven't got it up there As one of your favourite books? I shouldn't have outed you straight away, should I?

Sorry, I wasn't going to ask you that, but here we go I don't know if I put it like that, but it's definitely been one of her overlooked books There we go Maybe the least read, there's been not so much critical work on it but I'm so happy we've got this film because it's going to bring attention to this novel, which is, I think, quietly radical because we're still dealing with issues

around barriers for women in STEM, it's about suffrage. It's about so many things in every area. You're one of quite a stellar cast. I mean, what a line-up. The brilliant singer Nadine Shah, I spotted in there. There's also Lily Allen playing the suffragette,

Mary Dachette, Timothy Spall, Jennifer Saunders as your parents, and Jack Whitehall, as the poet William Rodney and he proposes to you in the film she says no right at the top what did Catherine not like about William I think it wasn't about

necessarily what she liked Willie is her best friend I think one of the things that was particularly interesting to me and when I stepped back and I looked at my life it occurred to me how much space was occupied by male figures and like patriarchal structures, whether it be father figures,

producers, directors, you know, there's like this kind of very domineering sense of like male figures in my life. And that was something that was really exciting was to kind of shed that and let go of that and to, again, just create. create more space for for Catherine, for myself.

Yeah, that was a pursuit. I mean, she's certainly up against it because she wants to learn about the stars. She doesn't want to marry. I mean, she's a free-thinking, willful, brilliant woman, but there's a lot of opposition to her plans. There is strong language to make

the point in this clip from the film as Catherine challenges her father. I just want to study. It's absolutely out of the question. You're marrying of your wife. Cyril put you up to it, did it?

No. Well, I forbid you to see it. Who are you to forbid me? I'm your foe. And the master of this house, did William Rodney propose to you? And of course, yes, you were too bloody stupid to say yes to him. What this rubbish got?

Oh, this God! No! No! No! You! No more precarity. Now you live in my house. You live by my rules. My rules. Timothy Spall, playing Catherine's father there, burning your physics and astronomy papers.

I think we should get some context about when Virginia was writing this. At what point in her life did she write this? So it was published in 1919. She was 37 at the time. She was living in Richmond then and in Ashum and Sussex. And this was her second novel. So her first novel, The Voyage Out, was about a woman musicians.

There's interesting parallels there. She was, she'd founded the Hogarth Press in 1917, so she'd taught herself to letter press print and book bind, and they were publishing her own experimental stories, but also Catherine Mansfield, other modernists. She was running the Richmond branch of the Women's Cooperative Guild and organising talk. She gave a talk on venereal disease, believe it or not.

She'd be great on Woman's Hour. So lots going on in the... And you're learning stuff yourself? Yes, I think of my justice for it. What were the barriers to women becoming involved in science in the early 20th century? I mean, they were great fathers, as you just heard. You know, Wolf was really interested in what she called it the infantile fixation, that fathers want to keep their daughters, you know, want to marry them,

keep them in the home. There were women in Cambridge, you know, in relation to the film and what happens to Catherine. The women's colleges had opened in 1870. Philippa Fawcett got the top marks in the math tripos in 1890. So there were... But they were privileged women, and the barriers were serious. Most women were self-taught, like Catherine. Right, exactly.

It's a romantic comedy. We don't think of comedy necessarily when we think of Virginia Woolf. But it is a... Would you say an unromantic comedy? Unromantic comedy. Well, yeah, the film was always... The screenplay was conceived as a comedy. We have incredible comedic actors filling these roles.

I loved the spirit of it. Like from a technical standpoint, I liked to play with her rhythms and the way that she moved. I wanted it really to feel other than, you know, some of the other representation of the period, her family figures, almost as if she could she was so momentous that she could leap from the screen into the future and pass everybody by

everybody standing still much like Haley's, Hallie's comet itself and that felt very progressive and kind of modern to me. It doesn't feel like a period film in that sense. It has a very effervescent quality

to it And the soundtrack's modern as well, so that kind of brings it into a different. Yeah, wonderful Icelandic composer has a real energy to it. How political, Anna, do you think she wanted it to be? How does night and day compare with Wolf's other works? It's very political, I think, although it's formally maybe more traditional than her big hitters of the 1920s, you know, Jacob's Room, Mrs. Talloway. In terms of content, it's very radical.

Like Mary Datchit in the film played by Lily Allen is a suffrage activist. she's writing a paper on like the abolishment of the class system. I think in the book it's much more of a double bill, a double act. I think there needs to be a sequel. Yeah. Mary Thatcher. What would you call it? Definitely.

What was the name of her paper? It was an early title of the book was Dreams and Reality. So she's playing with that. You know, the think to the stars and then the practical like on the ground grassroots politics. Yeah. I mean you brought in Lily Allen who plays Mary. There is a brilliant scene where all the cast are singing and everyone is kind of out of tune. Lily in particular has to sing very out of tune.

How is that to film? Oh, well, I mean, it's just so unfair. We have this, you know, iconic pop star who has to, you know, hopefully she didn't damage her voice doing that. And cut to a year later, she's been incredibly successful with West End. And I just love that she's playing Mary Datchez. who is a very unapologetic, outspoken suffragette who kind of opens Catherine's eyes to a new way for a woman to live. Yeah. I mean, we won't talk about the ending of the film because we don't want to spoil it.

But what do you think Virginia Woolf would have made about the writer, about the writer Justine model changing things? Because it's not strictly to the book. There's a bit of artistic line. I think she would have loved it. I mean, she didn't want to see her books kind of preserved an aspect. You know, she said literature is common ground, you know, and there have been so many, this is one of them, you know, so many bold and creative adaptations. We have Clarissa, the Nigerian film that's coming out, adaptation of Mrs. Alloway. You know, Wolf is so much in the, in the zeitgeist at the moment, I think, and, you know, her texts live on in new ways and they speak to

the new, new moments. Why do you think that is? Because she was so ahead of her time, I think, you know, around women's rights, so many of the issues she thought about, you know, equal pay, motherhood, working motherhood, you know, violence against women. The things that we're still dealing with and this novel's so key in that regard, I think. And we mentioned Tina Garavi, the director

and then Justine Waddle, who's the writer. So what was that experience like for you, Haley, working a film written by this iconic writer and then women sort of at the helm of it and then this great female cast as well. Sure. I've made, I think I've made probably 30 films, and two of them have been made with women.

So this felt like a really important film to be told from the female perspective. And that has been revolutionary for me, working with Tina to have the support of women in this way. And as I get older, I realize, you know, how important it is to create these female communities and be championing other women. It's not easy. And we can't do it alone. I think a lot of the things that we're experiencing are sort of shared experiences. Just the other day, I was texting with Justine.

and I asked her to put some lines, I asked her to record some lines for me because they were in British RP and I've been in Texas making a film in a Texan accent. And then afterwards I sent her a little recording and I was like, what do you think? And I was like, oh, well, is it all just so meaningless? I maybe I'll just, you know, I don't know,

maybe I'll just give up, but it'll just like, and it's so interesting that kind of instinct, that women have to go back to a safe place that feels smaller than what we've been offered, like what we've been given of like, oh, actually, maybe I'll just go and be the wife. That's just going to take care of the children and do the domestic things. And she's like, no, you have to just keep going. You've got to keep going. You're so talented.

You need to share that talent with the world. And that support is so invaluable to have. and to have other women in your corner that understand that experience. You need women as your hype girls. Like, you need more. Like, there's more for you than that. There's more for you than that. And that's what, you know, the spirit of Virginia Woolf is very much alive in this.

Who was Virginia's hype girl? Her sister. I mean, this novel was dedicated to her sister. Why did she dedicated it? Pioneering painter. You know, she was living a really unconventional life while she was writing this in Charleston with her lover and her lover's male lover, you know. And there we are.

says it all. Well, I want to thank you both for coming in to speak to me about the film and also The Life of Virginia Woolf, Haley Bennett and Anna Seney. Thank you both so much. And the film is called, well, you know it's called Night and Day. Thank you. You need to do like a very long segment on this. We do.

We do. I think I've connected the two of you now. Can I take your information? There we go. This is my favorite thing to do. This is my favorite thing. It's like I'm grateful to this film and this, you know, to Virginia Woolf, you're like bringing us together.

Wonderful. Thank you both. Thank you, Anna. There you go and have a cup of tea now and carry on chatting. Now, an exciting event is coming up. Woman's Hour, we're leaving Woman's Hour HQ. We're going to be at the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival in Sheffield next month, and we would love you all to join us.

We're going to be at the Montgomery venue on Friday the 3rd of July at 2pm for a special recording of our series, The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, and free tickets are available so you can join us. Just visit crosswired crosswires.live slash fringe for more information. The dilemma our experts are going to tackle this time is public speaking. Do you dread standing up in front of other people? Perhaps you've turned down an opportunity at work because it involved giving presentation. Maybe you've found yourself speaking so fast that you can barely catch your breath or had your mind go completely blank just when all eyes were on you.

We'd love to hear from you and your experience on this. The text number, as always, is 8444.844. You can WhatsApp the program on 037100-400-44. And, of course, contact us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Out and we'll use some of your responses in the program. And once again, if you'd like to join us in the audience, and am I allowed to say that it's going to be me and Nula together? OMG.

Together, they've unleashed us. And we will be live on stage at the Crosswires Festival. It's crossedwires. Live slash fringe cannot wait. Ripbox has the best of British TV, period. Let's get started. The best mystery, period. I like a good detective story. The best romance, period.

This is the book that will open the heart, Miss Mary Bennett. The best drama, period. Welcome to the grown-up world. Stream the best British period dramas, including The Lady, inspired by a true story of murder and scandal. the world of Jane Austen, the other Bennett sister, only on Britbox. Start your free trial at Britbox.com. Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe.

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Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. Tees and C's Apply. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards, sets your production team apart, with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer

for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Now to Japan, where important discussions are taking place to secure the future of their imperial family.

The emperor Narohito has one daughter and with only men being allowed to ascend the throne it's prompted Parliament to get involved. They finally agreed on a draft bill which could outline some solutions but what's missing from this proposal and what would arguably solve their problem is to let women do the job.

Could Japan ever have a female emperor and what would this mean for the country? Well, joining me to discuss is the BBC's Tokyo correspondent Karumi Mori and Jennifer Koumiri and Jennifer Coates, Professor of Japanese Studies at the University of Sheffield. Welcome to both of you. Karumi, I'm going to come to you first. Talk us through this draft bill. What's being proposed exactly? Yeah, well, Parliament has agreed on this plan that will help the Imperial family from

shrinking even more. So there are two parts to this bill that this cross-party parliamentary panel has approved. The first part says basically that female royals can now remain members. of the Imperial family after getting married. The second part allows male-line descendants of the former Imperial branches to rejoin the family. So that kind of increases the pool of Imperial Family members. Why do they think that women can't do the job? Well, I don't think it's that they don't think women can do the job, practically speaking. It's just that it's about the succession rules and tradition.

And being Japanese, I can tell you that the culture, we really value tradition. We can be really old school, really stubborn in that regard. It's a different debate, whether it's right or wrong, but in many respects, like a lot of the culture, sushi making, for example, right, for a long time, only men were supposed to be sushi chefs because women had two warm of hands. I mean, there's all these little things about tradition that doesn't really make sense, but it's been that way for so, so long that it takes a long time to change. I'm going to get into the tradition and why what's happening and what's not happening.

But what is the conversation within Japan? Like what's happening? Are people saying it should change or are people happy that tradition is remaining? What's the wider conversation around this? Well, you know, I think that there are many opinion polls, but most of them actually are more in favor of change. I think the imperial family is a big status symbol. It represents, you know, a huge part of what Japan is.

They are. They are hugely important to our culture. So I think the main consensus from the public is that they're for the change. They're for the change of the bill. One of the things that you said has been put in this bill is that a female can remain in the family once she's got married. So give us some context about this because a princess having to leave the family is something that's happened very recently. Yeah, it has. Do you know, I think the best known case recently is Munko.

In 2021, so about five years ago, she married a commoner, this lawyer guy named Kay. And under the current law, when she married him, she automatically lost her royal status and she had to leave the Imperial family. So she's moved to New York City. So she now lives there with him, they have a baby. So she lives a more common life. So without any changes, this will. keep happening where female and there are more female members currently than male members of the imperial family they will have to leave the imperial family totally so there was there was a scene where she

is getting into a car when she just decided to get married and her sister her younger sister just hugging her and it's just this emotional moment of her kind of officially leaving and exiting the and moving out to become a commoner. Yeah, I remember seeing the photographs and really, they really struck me. Actually, very reminiscent of like a traditional Indian wedding when a bride leaves as well. Like, and just, you know, kind of, yeah, kind of brought up quite a lot. I mean, there are potential successes who could take over from the emperor. So tell us who's possibly in line.

And why this bill is needed if there are potential successes? Yeah. Well, the bill is needed because there are, there are successors. There are three potential, there are three men male figures at the moment, one of which is 89 years old. We'll put that to the side. So there are successors. The whole point, though, is not necessarily that there is no successor currently.

It's that they want to increase the size of the imperial family because there are many working jobs within, if you're a part of the imperial family, there are many traditions, many, Jones, many official duties, ceremonies, visiting disaster areas, for example, supporting charities, doing tours, all of these duties that are normally carried out by only the family members and the emperor. And so they need to have more people in order to make sure they're fulfilling all of their duties. The current most possible is the son. So the emperor's younger brother's son. Yeah. Because the current emperor only has a daughter. And so he is basically seen as, you know, this dragonfly guy because he likes to study dragonflies. But he is seen as kind of the

the male successor. And before him, though, we only had the one daughter, the daughter of the current emperor. And so that's kind of when the discussions were taking place about could we have a female emperor, but then when he was born, that discussion kind of died down a bit because they're like, oh, we got a boy. I have to say that the prima genitor rule in the conversation in the UK only changed when Princess Charlotte was born, so very recently here. I'm going to bring Jennifer in. Morning, Jennifer, welcome. There have been female emperors in the past, though, haven't there? Tell us more. Morning, thanks for having me. And I think Karini's point about sort of concepts of tradition is so important here, because as you say, women have done the job.

One of the sort of prevailing theories in Japanese studies for a long time was what's called the interim emperor argument. So for a while, scholars thought that particularly the six empresses, some of whom ruled twice during the sixth to eighth century in Japan, were sort of pitch hitters who came in when politics had become very complicated, maybe brought in to avoid or settle a power struggle, assassinations, break a stalemate between other viable successors, and then hand back over to a male family member or sometimes a male candidate of their choice. How interesting.

However, recently that's been sort of revisited, and there are a number of academics in Japan now saying that this interim emperor argument is actually sort of a little bit, sort of gendered and that in fact these women had much more political and formative roles in Japanese history than we've thought. Yeah, some of them made huge advances, right? Like establishing Buddhism, even creating Japan's first constitution. Can you tell us more? Absolutely. Although ironically, Emperor Suiko, who was Japan's longest serving female emperor, she ruled for 37 years. She was very active in introducing Buddhism to Japan. Ironically,

that might be one of the reasons that we are sort of facing maybe a little bit of debate around the idea of a female emperor today because the emperor in Japan is not only the head of state, they're also the head of the religious life of the country. And in both Buddhism and Shinto animist traditions, there are some things that women are prohibited from doing. As Kuru we mentioned earlier, there's some sort of traditional ideas about jobs that women cannot undertake both in religious life as well as in everyday life. So the fact that the emperor would need to be sort of head of the church as well as head of the state could ironically pose some problems there. I would just like to dig a bit deeper into sort of the cultural pressure on

women in the imperial family to have a son. That's a question for both of you. Let's start with you, Jennifer. It's a big pressure, isn't it? And it's, it has been attributed in the past to sort of, you know, mental health issues amongst female members of the royal family, sort of feeling that extreme scrutiny, especially in the present day when there's sort of a constant news cycle and a lot of sort of online debate about what's going on in what are essentially people's private lives. So I think that has been a big problem. Karumi, tell us more. Yeah, I mean, it's so sad. I mean, for the Imperial family, right? The gender, and it's not just Japan, right?

But the gender matters so much. And so I think it's sad that it matters so much. Because when you have a baby, say you're the empress and she had a daughter, it's like disappointment. And it should be this joyful time of like a woman's body doing something so incredible. And you should just be so happy and proud to have a health. healthy a baby, that the pressures of having a male successor to the throne really is just, I don't know, I think, I find it so devastating and sad that when we had, you know,

the current empress have the daughter, the whole debate about like, oh, man, it wasn't a son. Now what do we do? You know, as if it's somehow her fault that she's a girl. And she did have a girl, the daughter. as Princess Aiko. What do we know about her? Yeah, so she is currently 24, I believe. She's the only child of the current emperor, Naruhito and Empress Masako.

You know, she hasn't really been in the public eye too much, actually, when she was younger. There were reports, like we talked about earlier, that she was kind of struggling with the limelight, some reports that are unconfirmed, but of bullying, difficulties adjusting to school. And maybe some social pressures may have played a role. So, you know, it's not just that she was a girl and there's pressure there, but also the fact that she is the only daughter, the only child to the future emperor at the time and the future empress. I think plays a huge toll. But, you know, she's under law, current, under the current law, she cannot inherit the throne.

Under this proposed bill, she also cannot inherit the throne. But, you know, she still carries out official duties. And we've been seeing her more and more actually in the public eye these past few years. Oh, I wonder how she feels about it. Jennifer, when it comes to gender equality in Japan, where are we now? What message would having a female empress end? I think it would be a very powerful message. I think, unfortunately, in Japan, there's a lot of great legislation,

and there's been a lot of great legislation since the post-war constitution, sort of cementing gender equality and opening up more opportunities for women in the workforce and in public life. Unfortunately, a lot of these laws are discussed in Japan as having no teeth, which basically means their recommendations. They're not enforceable. So things like the Equal Employment Opportunity Law, which Japan has had since 1986,

planned for gender equality 2000. You know, there's been a lot of legislation passed to try to sort of make Japan a more gender equal country. I think the most. recent global gender gap report still put Japan at 118 of 148 countries. So in practice, that's not really feeding through. Obviously, we do have a female prime minister. So I think that's, that's doing a lot. But a female emperor could really shift the dial quite a bit, I think. Well, we will just continue to watch the space. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for speaking to us

this morning, BBC Tokyo correspondent Karumi Mori and Professor of Japanese Studies at the University of Sheffield. Jennifer Coates, thank you, Jennifer. Did I mention that we were going to be in Sheffield at the Cross the Wise Festival? Get your tickets, get your tickets, it's going to be good. Now, you may have seen today that a new study from the University of Copenhagen in Denmark has raised questions about

whether certain workplace activities in early pregnancy may increase the risk of miscarriage. The research suggests that each additional hour to an eight-hour working day of bending forward, walking and standing may increase the risk of pregnancy loss in the first trimester. However, they are keen to stress that this is an observational study and does not prove cause and effect. So what do women need to understand from this study

and how could this affect workplace advice for pregnant women? While joining us now is the BBC Health reporter Michelle Roberts, Morning, Michelle. Morning. There are a few headlines about the study today and women reading it may feel concerned, but tell us what the reality is. Yeah, so I think this type of research is, really useful for people who are trying to set policies in the workplace or look at overall safety.

But for the individual woman, it can be quite scary to see a headline like this talking about, you know, increased risk. So what they did, the researchers, it was big data. They looked at a register of what jobs people were doing and also which of these pregnant women had miscarriage. So we're talking about 800,000 pregnancies in this Danish group. And then looking at about half a million women. And they found that the chance of a miscarriage was about one in ten, which is similar to what you see in a population a little bit lower. But when they started to try and tie together what women were doing as an occupation,

they said that they found this sort of link, they're not fully sure what's going on, but a link with if there was a lot of work involving bending over. And we're not talking about just a little bit. We're talking if you were doing an eight-hour shift, if a whole hour of that shift is intensive bending over, then there was this slightly increased risk. We do know from other pieces of research as well,

that obviously in pregnancy, you've got to adapt slightly what you're doing, you know, but certainly this goes against other advice, which you should keep exercising. It's important that women don't feel that they should stop moving around in pregnancy and just sit still in bubble wrap. You know, it's nuanced. Yes. Well, several experts have pointed out limitations, including the lack of individual data on smoking and other workplace factors.

So how much confidence can we have in the conclusions, given these potential gaps in the evidence? I think it's something to pay attention to, but not to be worried about. So we already know one of the big risk factors that you can actually change is smoking. Smoking is linked with risk of miscarriage. So, you know, if you're thinking about becoming pregnant or you are pregnant and you're smoking, then definitely quitting that will help you and your baby. and having things like folic acid as well up to conception and whilst you're pregnant can really help the health of your baby as well. In terms of work, you know, workplaces should be able to offer tweaks to employment if needed.

You know, sort of heavy lifting that kind of thing is something that's already recognised as something to bear in mind. but this new study doesn't really change what the current advice is. So for women in early pregnancy who spend much of their time working during the working day on their feet or bending, what's the key message they should take from this research without becoming unnecessarily alarmed? Yeah, that researchers are looking at safety and trying to improve things for women and for people who, you know, are thinking about becoming pregnant in the future. But this really isn't something to cause alarm. Follow the advice that your doctor gives you or your midwife, you know,

when you go for your checkups. And exercise really is important in pregnancy. Swimming is brilliant. You know, once you get a lot, lot bigger, it can really help support you in the water when you're feeling a bit, you know, is a bit more difficult to get around, isn't it? when you're in your last trimester. But yeah, some walking, some swimming is brilliant. Thank you, Michelle.

That's the BBC's health reporter Michelle Roberts. And if you have any concerns about anything we've spoken about, please contact your GP. And there are also support links on the BBC's Actionline website. Now, what is a spinster cook? How do you look after yourself as a woman when you find yourself outside of the conventional couple or family dynamic? Ellie Davis has written the spinster cook.

book, culture, politics and pleasure in the single woman's kitchen. It's a cookbook of sorts, but it's definitely a manifesto for living differently and how cooking for one as a woman can become an act of care, defiance, pleasure and self-expression. Ellie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for having me. It's great to be here. Right, I'm going to start with the obvious. It's been an insult for an unmarried woman. You're reclaiming the word spinster. Yeah, I mean, reclaiming is definitely part of it. But in that, reclamation. I want to be quite careful that we're not shying away from some of the unease and sort of discomfort that people have with the word because I think that's a really interesting thing

to sit with and think about because it has been such a stigma for such a long time to be a single unmarried woman and it carries all of these associations. And my use of the word spinster is kind of deliberately provocative. in a way and naming a lot of those uncomfortable associations that we have with it. So asking people to sit with it, owning some of that stuff. And also the word spinster, its origins are in women who, it was an occupation. It was what people, women who spun wool and often supported themselves, run their own businesses. And so I really like the term because it exists in its own terms rather than being in relation to a relationship status.

So you're not single is, there's an absence in single, unattached, uncoupled, all of these. There's something missing, whereas spinster kind of... Well, they were empowered, weren't they? Yeah, takes up its own space. So what or who is a spinster cook? So a spinster cook is someone who, speaking for myself,

and obviously I talk about this in the book, but a spinster cook is someone who is using the kitchen as a way of understanding and thinking about the life that you're being. building as a single woman. So for me, a spinster cook, it can be a space of joy, of play, of indulgence, but it can also be a space of defiance, rejection. You can choose not to eat, you can just choose to have a piece of toast for dinner, as I

talk about in my first chapter, or you can spend all day preparing a lovely indulgent feast for yourself. But the point is that all of these things are possible because you're living alone. and outside of a certain sort of structure and framework. Yeah, and we're getting lots of messages in. I'm going to read some out in a minute. But you wrote this in the aftermath of a breakup and you now choose to be single.

So how has that changed your own approach to food? So for a long time, it was difficult to start with because I've always loved cooking and I've always had a really good relationship with cooking. And after that particular relationship finished, it was a long-term relationship. We were together for 12 years. I felt kind of uneasy.

I had to step back from it for a while because it was very bound up with that particular relationship, with a certain type of domesticity, a certain type of like coupled domesticity that I was trying to figure out how I felt about and cooking for a long time. And also I was just, you know, I was as we all are when we have a relationship breakup.

I was overwhelmed by grief and obviously feeding yourself, looking after yourself in those circumstances can be really, really tricky. So there was a real period of figuring things out and then I suppose when I mean I talk about the moment to go back to the toast but in my first chapter which is called vodka and toast that moment of realization of I don't have to make dinner and no one can make you know no one can make me it doesn't matter yeah I can live I can cook and eat on my own terms and so not having to have a discussion with someone before dinner and not having to think you know negotiate with someone else's tastes or schedules or those kinds of things there's a real free time. Yeah, yeah, what happens when you talk about, when you remove the domesticity and it's not about duty or feeding a partner. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

I'm going to read out a couple of messages, shall we? Okay, brilliant. Now, let's bring them in. I not only cook or make myself dinner from scratch every night, but I also make a point of setting the table complete with flowers and a napkin. I do this despite the fact that I've been working cooking all day. It's a great focus and I use it as a creative moment in my day to hone my skin. an experiment. It's not always successful, says Emma. And another one here says, when my dad died in March, I spent six hours making my dinner. I got myself oysters for the starter. Yeah, this is like,

I made lemon butter pasta and a poichetta with salads. Then I made myself an entire bowl of eaten mess. And then I set up a little bar for myself, making myself martinis and a ngroni. That's actually made me feel quite emotional. That is amazing. Well done. Who was the person who? No name. No name. Just a legend. Absolutely. An absolute legend. I love the oysters to start and setting up the book.

I mean, yeah, that's a real, like, statement. Yeah, 844, 844. Kiem coming in. I'm enjoying reading them. Your oldest sister comes into the book. Yes. And meals you have had with her. Why?

So she was a very important figure in my life when I was a teenager. And I'm the youngest of four. And so, and I have a good relationship with all of my siblings. have two brothers as well and all of them have kind of helped me along and looked after me in various ways. But Hannah was this very specific example in the 90s. It was a certain period in London where there was a lot. She was living in a particular, you could live in a particular way at that point. It would be far too expensive now, but she was living in these rented flats in Highbury and Stoke Newington and leading a very sort of fun, interesting life and sort of demonstrated.

this way of living. Freedom. Freedom, absolutely. And part of that was through food. You know, it was things like pasta and pesto, which were novelties in the 90s, you know, a jarred sort of pasta sauce that, you know, we'd have before going out for a few glasses of wine in Islington.

And there was something about the tastes, the sort of combination of tastes and food and drink that was really kind of introduced me to this way of occupying the world and having. a nice time. And I guess our palette was changing in the UK then as well, quite dramatically. Interesting you say Pesto, because reading your book, it made me think, obviously you kind of think about your own relationship with food. And when I first moved to London, very young, I made myself homemade Pesto from scratch because why not? And somebody was really surprised by that.

I said, what, just for yourself? Pesto for yourself. And it made me realize, yeah, because actually it's an act of, it's an act of love nourishing yourself. Yeah, it really is. I was having a conversation at an event last night about this and I was someone was saying what asking me what you could do what you would say to someone who's struggling to kind of cook for themselves and struggling to see the struggling to see the point in it and I was trying to you know obviously if not everyone's going to love cooking that's fine like you're not but if it's a it's a way of understanding your own pleasures and what makes you happy yeah so if you can figure that out like what flavour combinations you like

and even if that is just you know some anchovies with a bit of French bread or you know a certain type of salad with a particular dressing that is so that's just such a wonderful thing to be able to give yourself

Absolutely or a Victoria sponge Whatever it might be I'm very good at punishing myself in other ways but not through food That is pleasure You explained what a spinster cookies What's a spinster dinner party So the spinster dinner party, so that's one of the chapters in the book, I suppose it goes back to, I mean it's very similar to your listener who texted in about the oysters and the eaten mess.

And that is very much the spirit of the spinster dinner party. It's the sort of lavishing yourself with care, indulgence, spending time, you know, thinking about what you're, going to eat. It was very important for me personally, as I think a lot of people experienced during lockdown. When I was living alone, I developed an incredibly intense relationship with food. It was a way of caring for myself, but also a way to just fill the time. And also following recipes could be quite a good anti-anxiety tool, I found, you know, the methodical sort of slow, you know, following of instructions. So it became a way of kind of,

it became a way to celebrate and feel better about the fact that I was on my own to feel that time, to amuse myself to... I'm totally, I can relate a lot. I started cooking on Instagram. Yeah, that was my thing. I cooked and everything I was cooking, all the elaborate meals I was making,

I was saying, sharing them with the world. So, yeah, I could relate to a lot, a lot of it. There's some, it's such a good book because it really makes you sit and think. And one section is when you talk about your relationship with the dining table, I found really interesting. How do you feel about eating at the table?

I don't like eating at the table. And I fully respect people who do. I mean, that's not to say. If I'm having people over for dinner, like I, obviously, you know, it's nice to sit around the table. There's a way that it can can be a positive and fun experience. But I think I, have certain associations with it as a slightly confining space somewhere that's a kind of work space

in a way and I talk about this a little bit. It's where, you know, the business, if you're in a couple, you talk about your plans for the weekend and what you're going to do and families are, you know, discussing what needs to be done in the household, homework. And I kind of landed on this, these sort of interpretations of the dinner party after I was thinking of, I was questioning my own discomfort with the dinner table. And I just don't, I don't set a place for myself if I'm cooking for a time. I sit on the sofa and watch TV. It's a joy.

Yeah, I'm sorry, TV dinners, the best. Absolutely. I feel very at peace with that. I don't feel guilty about not. Listen, you are in good company. No one is shaming you. It's good. Right, I'm going to read, these messages are coming in.

They're quite lovely. My sister and I just finishing renovating two terrace cottages with a shared guard. which we intend to retire to in around 20 years when we retire from running our farm and glamping business in North Wales. We call it Spinster Heights. We've both been happily single for over a decade and intend to remain so.

We'll move in with our rescue dogs and definitely buy a copy of the Spinster Cookbook. Oh, brilliant. And live happily ever after, says Liz. Another one here, Michelle in Nottingham says, oh, give me a perfect fluffy omelet and a cold glass of pino grigio. Easy, quick, filling and less washing up.

at the dining table with a book to hand, also lovely, means a less stressful end of the day. Should we do another? Well, I'll come back to them. Kim in Warwickshire wrote to say, I've been single all my life and I embrace my singledom. I have no one else to please but myself. I love it. I have never used a delivery food service and only rarely use ready meals, preferring to batch cook freeze. I cook what I want, when I want, and I presume you can eat when you want as well.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's one of the nice things you can follow your hunger. and your instincts about food and eat at times that suit you and not other people. How do you feel about the girl dinner trend? I mean, this is, we love to explain what it is. So girl dinner came about, the phrase girl dinner came about, and it went absolutely viral. It was a woman on TikTok, Olivia Maha,

who was a show runner who was at that point out of work as a result of the Hollywood writer's stroke. and she posted on her TikTok what she called Girl Dinner and it was like a hunk of bread some grapes, a glass of wine maybe some pickles and she, it's a very short video

and she just pans to the play and says this is what I call Girl Dinner and it went absolutely crazy and there have been I think millions of responses to this since and so the idea of Girl Dinner is that it's It's just bits and pieces of delicious things you don't need to cook.

You don't create washing up. It's just what you fancy, basically. For pleasure, for whatever you fancy. What can we learn by paying attention to what single women cook and eat? I think there's a lot about that we can learn about housing, about the shape of households, about how food is packaged and sold, things like portion sizes. The singles tax is a big issue.

So, you know, it's more. to live alone and if we think about how to package, how single women are eating, we can think about how those things have sort of penalised. I have really enjoyed this conversation. I want to end the programme on a few more messages just because they're really delightful and we're getting quite a lot and I'm just very greedy as well

so I like reading things and thinking about food. During lockdown when I had time on my own and cooking just for myself, I decided to try out Mira, so does 100 garlic clove, I know that you like Mira as well. I did use 100 clothes. It was absolutely delicious. But even when I went for social distance,

see, swim with friends two days later. I was still radiating garlic. It could smell me coming. I would still recommend the recipe. She says, I'm on here. I love proper ratatouille. My family all hate it. So I just cook a batch and eat it for my lunches

with crusty bread. Yum. Join me tomorrow for weekend Women's Hour. Ellie Davis, thank you. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi there, I'm Dillie Carter, and this is everything you need to know about my new podcast.

Sort your life out, unpacked. I interview a different celebrity every episode. They bring me in three items from their home that reveal them most about them, and we unpack the stories behind those items. And I give you a few tips and tricks along the way. Some of the guests that I'm going to be interviewing are TV presenters like Lorraine Kelly, reality stars like Kerry Cotona, podcast royalty like Elizabeth Day, and of course our very own Stacey Solomon.

Oh, and let's not forget some incredibly funny comedians like Phil Wang and Eddie Caddy. I think, as with everything, sort your life out based, you are going to get so much motivation, inspiration and ideas for your own home. Sort Your Life Out unpacked presented by me, Diddy Carter. You can watch us on Eyeplayer and listen on BBC Sounds.

She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own now. is much to be admired. Now, her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice, comes a new Britbox original drama.

Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank. Choose the smart way.

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