Woman's Hour - Harassment when training, Zara Mohammed, Marie McCourt

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

A top-class Welsh athlete, one of the best, says the abuse that women get when out training has to stop. Rhiannon Linnington-Payne, who runs the 400 metres and is training for The Commonwealth Games, has spoken out about the harassment she's received when doing her daily training sessions on a road near her home. Other women say it happens to them too.Zara Mohammed is the first woman, and the youngest person, to be leader of the Muslim Council of Britain. Her background is in Human Rights Law and she says it's her vision to "build a truly inclusive, diverse and representative body". She hopes her appointment will inspire more women and young people to take on leadership roles. She joins Emma to talk about her new role.Marie McCourt's daughter, Helen, was murdered in February 1988. Her killer was convicted on overwhelming forensic evidence, but refused to reveal the location of her body. Marie, now 77, has never given up finding her. At the beginning on this year, Helen's Law came into effect which makes it a legal requirement for the Parole Board, when they make a decision about a murderer's release date, to consider their failure in disclosing the location of a victim. However, Marie wasn't able to prevent the release of Helen's murderer in 2020. It's lockdown, and are you trying to carve out extra private spaces in your home? If you've got an open-plan set-up, are putting walls back up?* Are you finding space in a shed or a cupboard under the stairs? Mother of four, Amy Harty, has created an extra bedroom in her 3 bed house for just £140! She joins Emma to explain how, along with Laura Jane Clark, architect and expert on BBC Two’s Your Home Made Perfect. * Do check building and fire regulations.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. How have you hacked your living space? Today I speak to a woman, Amy Harty, who got out her tools to create a second bedroom out of one to give her daughter a room of her own so she could have some much-needed space from her brothers for a mere £140. Putting up walls, creating divides, rowing back on open plan living. How have you changed your space during lockdown? How have you hacked it? However limited perhaps the change has been, tell us. 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Tensions, of course,

very high, especially if you haven't got that much space. So perhaps you can't do any of these things. And you want to tell us about how that feels as well. We are all ears to that. Social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. But if you have been able to do something, let us know. And we'll have some tips for you later on in the programme. We will talk to Amy as well to hear what it's been like in her house since she made that change. Although perhaps I shouldn't talk too much during today's Woman's Hour.

Well, that's if I listen to the former prime minister of Japan. Now, the Tokyo Olympics committee president you just heard there in the news, there's been calls for him to resign. He said women talk too much in meetings and should have their speaking time regulated. Just going to let that sit with you there. He's now apologised, saying his wife was upset with him over the remarks. We look forward to welcoming him to Woman's Hour. Later on today's programme, I'll also be joined by Zahra Mohammed, the first woman to run the Muslim Council of Britain.

But first, a top-class Welsh athlete, one of the best, says the abuse that women get when out training or keeping fit has to stop. Rhiannon Linnington-Payne, who runs the 400 metres and is training for next year's Commonwealth Games, recently tweeted about the harassment she receives on one of her daily training sessions, giving us an insight into her world. She was practising on a road near her home. Immediately, other women got in touch to say it happens to them too. And you're also getting in touch with us I'll read some of your messages on that in just a moment you can text 84844 to share your story let's talk now to Rhiannon good morning good morning what happened on that day that you were sharing with people it

got a bit much didn't it yeah so um I mean you know as a, I'm kind of used to the odd comment, the odd horn honk from a van driver, you know. But that day, so it was it was dark. It was after work. I was in the middle of a session. It was quite a hard session as well. And a group of boys drove past in a car. They were quite young. They definitely been taking drugs because you could smell it. They shouted a comment at me at the window, which related to my figure and sort of the tight kit that I was wearing. And then threw an empty beer can out the window at me as well.

And that kind of just, it was the straw that broke the camel's back really. So I put out this tweet of just anger and frustration more than anything, not thinking anything of it, not thinking it would really get much of a response. And the uptake was honestly overwhelming. Yeah yeah people getting in touch with their stories just to go back to what happened to you what what did you do when you had a beer can thrown at you um I didn't really know what to do to be honest it was it I kind of just froze um my partner was with me but he was kind of the road at the other end doing a separate session. So I was essentially on my own. And I honestly didn't know what to do at the time. I was like, do I

throw it back? Do I shout? I don't know. So I just kind of froze. I mean, apart from it being horrible and not something you would hope would ever happen, you know, they're also just littering as well in the middle of everything else. That would get my goat as well as the other bit yeah I mean it's not it's not funny but already I've moved to try and diffuse it for you to try and make it okay because I was thinking about the fact I was out running only a few weeks ago and a guy stopped me and he was digging up the road and he said to me uh you know hello and I thought oh he's going to ask for directions and he was basically asking me out. And I was so surprised by this. I started laughing. I said, are you having a laugh? Is this real? You know, and okay, it wasn't shouting sexual abuse, you know, and I sort of said, no, thanks, goodbye, and carried on with my way. But

I suppose what you're saying, and what we're hearing from our listeners is, can't you just go out and exercise? Exactly. I think, you know, I said, in my initial interview, that everyone has the right to just kind of go about their business and not be challenged. As long as you're not doing the wrong thing, as long as you're not law-breaking, you know, we're all human beings at the end of the day. And this is a message about respect for the human beings, regardless of whether you're a male or female, whether you're kind of of an ethnic minority everyone has the right to go about their business in their own way. Have you decided to do anything different since you've had this response from other women what would have been your thoughts? I mean it's a subject that I'm

quite passionate on anyway you know for me it's it happens in social settings as well and I don't feel confident going to kind of pubs and bars unless my partner's with me, because I'm often made to feel uncomfortable by people there as well. So it's an underlying message in society more than anything. So it's a message that I intend to stick with. A lot of athletes have got in touch and said that what I've done in speaking out is really inspiring because so many people are too scared to speak out and so many people have got in touch again and said they are too afraid to go out and exercise in the dark because they don't know what's going to happen to them. So it's really given them that confidence

and I want to make sure that continues. Your training at the moment, is it different because of lockdown? Yes. So normally we would have access to track facilities and gym facilities. Obviously we don't have that at the moment. And, you know, gym facilities. Obviously, we don't have that at the moment. And, you know, of course, I understand why we don't have that at the moment. So everything I do is on the streets. I've had access to a bar and a few weights so that I can do my strength and conditioning training at home as well, which has been really useful. So trying to find a suitable surface to do the type of running that I do on is quite difficult. Do you think you should look at reporting people who do abuse while you're now out and having to be out because you can't be on the track?

Absolutely. I think and it's not just, you know, athletes. This is kind of people who are out running socially and for their mental health as well should absolutely be doing the same thing um a friend and colleague of mine actually keeps a log of um registration plates she's very good at remembering them so she keeps a log of registration plates of um cars who have kind of abused her while she's been out training oh something else she has to do while she's keeping fit yeah yeah um and she's she's actually been in touch with one of her friends who was a police officer and said that it's unlikely that they will be investigated and i think that you know that's quite a strong point to be talking about really that you know this there's a woman

here who has received harassment and sometimes kind of comments of a sexual nature and unwanted comments and it's unlikely that they would be investigated any further um i mean the other thing just to say is for the women who aren't out for the women who are not going out this may be putting them off at a time where we need the nation to be fit and healthy you should always feel like that of course but at the time of a pandemic yeah it's um it's it's really sad to think that it is stopping people from getting out and active as someone who does so much sport I you know reap the benefits of being active and I genuinely love what I do um I play hockey as kind of a second sport as well so so much of

my time is spent being active and I am really grateful for that and definitely benefits me in so many ways so to hear that there are people who don't feel that they can be active because of fears of what might happen to them whilst they're out is really sad sarah's got in touch on twitter saying i'm sitting listening whilst crying i had a can of beer thrown at me while running because i stopped on the pavement to allow the car to drive across the pavement to exit the pub car park i was shocked and i just stood there people who saw laughed it is not a one-off another one saying we're so used to it here no name on this we don't pavement to exit the pub car park. I was shocked and I just stood there. People who saw laughed. It is not a one-off. Another one saying, we're so used to it here. No name on this. We don't count half of the harassment that we receive as such. When you start unpicking it, every woman runner

I know has experienced it. Well, you've certainly started a conversation. Thank you for talking to us today. Keep up your great work and thanks for raising awareness of this. Rhiannon Linnington-Payne there. An email from one of you as well who also wished to remain anonymous. I'm furious to hear that so many people are being verbally abused while running. When will we ever be left in peace? I'm 55. I live in a rural area. I started

running 18 months ago and have had slow cars. Ritz said to me, one bloke who stepped in in his open reach van, I thought to ask directions, so I stopped running only to hear him say, why aren't you running? And drive off laughing. I felt so angry.

How dare he? He dares because he feels he'll get away with it and doesn't care that his actions made me feel vulnerable and self-conscious. Same old story. Slow cars, sorry, I feel, I believe there are stories about cars slowing down to say something.

But yeah, you get the sense of how this is affecting people, not just in cities, but also in rural areas. Although another message did come into that effect saying, actually, where I run, this is from Mimi, I've been very lucky. Everyone's been very friendly. It's not as bad in the countryside, is my experience. I do make sure I give everyone a wide berth,

whether I'm running or cycling and smile. Tell us how you handle it and keep those messages coming in. Now, Zahra Mohammed, at the age of 29, is the first woman and youngest person to be elected to lead the Muslim Council of Britain, the largest umbrella organisation representing British Muslims. With a background in human rights law, she said it is her vision to build a truly inclusive,

diverse and representative body, and she hopes her appointment will inspire more women and young people to come forward to take on leadership roles. Zahra joins us now. Zahra, congratulations on your appointment. What response have you had, perhaps especially from women? It's been overwhelming and really, really so exciting. I've received so many positive messages. People feel really hopeful, encouraged, optimistic and strong.

And so for me, it's been, I guess, a double benefit that I've been able to not only be making history, but also actually to inspire and encourage others to do the same. What qualifies you for the role? So I'd actually been part of the leadership team in the Muslim Council of Britain for two and a half years. And I've been doing the work on the ground you know delivering to our affiliates rolling up my sleeves and being prepared especially during this pandemic 24 7 you know supporting things keep changing and offering that reassurance I've delivered over 40 webinars on guidance and support and so you know I've been part of the work and I think that's where people

have put the confidence in me and my ability to actually lead the work and I think that's where people have put the confidence in me and my ability to actually lead. Why do you think it's not had a woman before? Well I can't answer that question but it's certainly got a woman now and I don't I don't hope to be the the first or well it can be the first but not the last. Yeah you're definitely the first but you don't want to be the last. No no I wondered if if you had a view on that i mean we should say uh as as the leader now of the muslim council of britain it's an unpaid role is that right that's right it's voluntary yeah a lot of people don't know it but it's pretty much a full-time job yeah i mean so you're gonna have to work alongside that to to that's right to pay away

what do you do alongside it so i I'm a consultant. So I advise organisations on their governance. I help develop better professional practice. Okay. So you've got to do a couple of roles at the same time as doing that. But in terms of your role now, do you see yourself as the top Muslim voice in Britain? Well, that's quite a daunting thought, Emma. I mean, I think for me, I'm still processing. This is day four for me. And I think there's definitely an incredible amount of responsibility. And definitely I see that I'm going to play a really important role or I am playing an important role in that representation.

Well, I ask because let's just get some basics. How many Muslims are there in the UK? This is about three million. Three million. I thought that was the case, but I just wanted to double check. I thought you would definitely know. What if I get it wrong? I'll be in trouble. Good to get the basics. How many does the Muslim Council of Britain represent? So who do you speak for? Yeah, that's a really good point. So we have around 500 in our membership, but that includes

mosques, council of mosques, charities, women's organisations, professional networks. And within each of them, they have their own membership base. So we're an umbrella body, and we're not saying that we do represent everybody. We say that we represent our affiliates and members. So 500 organisations, not 500 individuals, but within that they have. And how many female imams are there in the UK at the moment? Just because I presume we'll get to this more, but representing, of course, women, which you will do as part of this, how many do we have in Britain? I mean, I think, again, I'm not, I wouldn't have a clue on these numbers, because my role is making sure that we include our affiliates, particularly women in the work that we are doing and making sure that our structures, as well as the work we do, are truly representative. So I think that you...

Sorry, you don't know. That's fine if you don't know. But do we have female imams in this country? I mean, again, it's not... Are you referring to chaplains? Are you referring to women that lead the prayer? What are you referring to? And I think... You tell me. I'm genuinely intrigued to know. Of course, female priests have been around for some time. We've also seen the advent of female rabbis in this country. What is the picture for women leading prayer in Britain in Muslim communities? Well, I think my role isn't really to adjudicate or to examine that part of spirituality. I think where women want to make those choices and where, you instance, added to the census. I mean, that was done at the turn of the century. So we actually knew how many Muslims there were. So do we have female imams? I think what's really important for the Muslim Council of Britain, the work that we

do is actually that it's not about defining, you know, or going into these types of questions regarding spirituality, but actually looking at how we can benefit our communities, especially given the pandemic and given the role that everybody needs to be playing. And we will get to the pandemic. It's just quite striking that you can't sort of answer that question. I recognise it's not a religious or spiritual role. Exactly. I don't feel like that's within the parameters of my roles and responsibilities, especially as, you know, the first elected female representative. I would have asked a man,

but I'm asking you because you're here. Let's go to what you do say you represent, which is, you know, a large group of Muslims in this country. And one of the points that was made in the live hustings on the Islam Channel before your election was that there are some

in the British Muslim community who feel that the Muslim Council of Britain has lost its way and that it doesn't represent the diverse views of the community. And I've got some specific examples, but how do you respond to that? Well, I think look at my appointment. I mean, it doesn't get any more different or diverse than that. I'm the youngest, I'm female, I'm also Scottish. And, you know, and I think the people who voted me in were imams, there were mosques, they were women's organizations you know so I think you know I think we're seeing the reflection of where we're really at not about the preconceptions of who we are and what we're about

and I think also given my social media, the media interest and all the excitement around my appointment you have to really look at you know the inspiration and the change that we can bring right now. And especially with my leadership, you know, I really want to bring young people and more women on board. And I think actually, you know, relevance is such an important question and that is something that I'm fully on board with. Being questioned and challenged is also really important

for the betterment of our organisation. So you do think it needs to reform? For instance, I was reading Qanta Ahmed in The Spectator, a doctor and women's rights activist, and a Muslim, and she said the Muslim Council of Britain seeks to silence debate, and as she puts it, moderate Muslims like her. You know, do you think you can get somebody like her to feel that the Muslim Council of Britain represents her? Well, I would love to ask her what she thinks about my appointment. So, you know, for me, I think that, you know, this is, we've made history. And I think the feedback that we're getting is that actually people are really encouraged,

they feel inspired. And actually, you know, the change is already happening. And for me, you know, I've got a really clear manifesto. I'm really excited to be starting the work as well as continuing the work that we're already doing. You talk about women on board with what you're doing, but let's just get a bit more detail on that if I can. You know, how big a problem do you see for you dealing with what some have described

as a social and economic exclusion among some British Muslim women? And what do you see as holding them back? Do you see it as ultra-conservatism within Islam and within their local community? Or do you see it as a general issue with patriarchy? I think, you know, the conversation around all women and the global narrative of who women can be, what they're defined by, their consequences. And unfortunately, the nature of these questions that you're asking, particularly about, they all seek to define us and to put parameters around us and to fix narratives. I'm sorry, I take issue with the issue with the question

if i can because i'm asking you because there are some women you can look at some reports around this who who are in a situation where they are excluded from society and i want to know what you're going to do about that as the first woman in this role well given there's plenty to do i mean look there's absolutely socio-economic challenges across the board there's plenty to do. I mean, look, there's absolutely socio and economic challenges across the board. There's definitely barriers to women, whether it be in employment, or whether it be in, you know, public life, political life, accessing, you know, being part of senior management, you know, we face it every day. And for me, it's about absolutely having a strategy to do that. And as I said, I've still to form my team. And so I do hope to have a little bit little bit more time but you know there are some really clear ideas that I do have in terms of strategic direction I mean do we need to talk to employers and think about their practices and you know zero tolerance

on discrimination or do we need to actually ask women you know what exactly do you want you know well we look for we look forward to welcoming you back when perhaps that's that is more uh fleshed out it has only been announced this week, your appointment. Totally understand that. Could I ask you about the relationship with the government, between the British government and the Muslim Council of Britain? It has been a strained one over the years. Why is it strained and how would you define it now?

I would say that, you know, the Muslim Council of Britain is the largest Muslim umbrella organisation. And, you know, we have a diverse amount of affiliates and through our covid work we've actually been ahead of the government in the guidance and supplementary guidance we've provided communities and we've provided a national platform to actually allow our affiliates to lead the response especially on the ground so all i would say is that it's really disappointing that the government hasn't engaged and actually taken on board what we found and I mean we've been really open so that relationship is not repaired yet as far as I'm aware there hasn't been engagement and I think I'm definitely open to that conversation

and I think that there are ways that we can share what we've learned from our affiliates as a representative body you know policy should be informed by the people that it affects. So absolutely, you know, we're going to continue doing that work. We have asked the government for a statement and we've been promised one on the relationship between yourselves and them. So it's only fair, of course, to ask from their point of view. But why do you see it that this umbrella organisation

that you now lead does not have a working relationship with this government? I mean, as I said, you know, I've just been in the role a couple of days now. You said at the beginning of our conversation that you've been involved with the Muslim Council of Britain. So you've got the experience. So what is your view based on that experience? So, I mean, it will need to be about what the government has to say on this. You know, as far as I'm aware, we're open to having that conversation. It's our role as a representative body. And I think if you ask the government for a statement then

please do so no but i have to hear from you so you have no view whatsoever as to why the government does not have a relationship with the muslim council of britain as the new leader of the muslim council of britain i think unless they have clearly stated why we would just be speculating i think that there is a role that we play in a reputational could you share your opinion as i said it's disappointing at best i mean if they haven't given a specific a specific reason and it would just be an assumption you know we had a question here we were talking about relationships between women and different groups julie siddiqui and Laura Marks from Nisha Nashim, which is a Jewish Muslim women's network

building bridges between the two faiths. They've welcomed your appointment. They said congratulations. But there's a question there about the troubled relationship between Judaism and Islam. The question is, what are your thoughts on addressing intolerance and division? How will you challenge it, Zahra, between those two groups? I was delighted to

meet both Julie and Laura I think it was two days ago I lose track of which interview I'm on so we had we had a really good open session and actually Laura posed that question to me that day too and you know so I'm happy you've asked look we and I personally we're against all intolerance you know all discrimination all discrimination. These are all divisive. And hatred only seeks to divide us as well as create an animosity and enmity. So yeah, we've got to challenge all intolerance. It's not just about Judaism. And I don't believe there's, you know, any kind of intolerance that we should accept. And absolutely, we should challenge that.

Zahra Mohammed, we look forward to talking to you again. Congratulations. Thank you very much for your time. The new leader of the Muslim Council of Britain. And when we get that statement, I hope we can, from the government, I'll read it to you. Now, spare a thought for the Attorney General, Suella Braverman, the first woman in the role for the government. For us all, she's expecting a baby in the next few weeks.

But as things stand, if you have the job of Attorney General, you can't get maternity leave. That means she'd have to resign. That's according to the political news website Politico. But the government is changing the law today so she can legally get some time off without having to step back from the job. The BBC's deputy political editor is Vicky Young. Vicky, many people hearing this will be surprised that a high ranking official working as part of government isn't entitled currently to paid maternity leave. Yeah, I mean, this is an intriguing story. And actually, we've been trying to get to the bottom of it all morning. I think when you first hear it, you think, well, this can't possibly be true. But it does turn out, having spoken to lots of former ministers and cabinet ministers who have had children,

that it's an informal system which applies not just to the attorney general and law officers in the government, but also to ministers of all ranks. So up until now, it's really been at the discretion of the prime minister. So female ministers and cabinet ministers have always got their maternity leave, but actually it's at the discretion of the prime minister. Now, that's because partly, you're in a very different kind of job to lots of people. As a cabinet minister, you really are an appointee of the prime minister rather than a straightforward employee. I mean, let's remember reshuffles, you're sacked overnight without any notice, you couldn't do that in a

normal working environment. So they've always been treated slightly differently. But what the government has said to me today is that they are going to announce this new bill, which will be brought in next week, they'll get through all its stages, they hope in one day next Thursday, and it will formalise this process so that all ministers, cabinet ministers and opposition office holders, so if the leader of the opposition was a woman who wanted maternity leave, they will all be entitled to it with up to six months full pay. There will be people, as I say, though, just thinking, how has it got to 2021?

And there's this gap. And I suppose what it comes down to, and you cover politics all day, every day, Vicky, is until women hold these roles, you won't necessarily know what's not in place for them. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely fascinating, isn't it? And Suella Braverman is the first woman to be Attorney General. But it has pointed up, you know, a wider issue. There have actually been very few women in cabinet who have had children.

I mean, there still aren't very many women in the cabinet at the moment. And I think it does show actually how slow progress has been. If you think about it, proxy voting in the House of Commons for women on maternity leave was only brought in in January 2019. You know, it's pretty incredible. And you may remember there was a Labour MP, Stella Creasy, who was fighting to get somebody to do her constituency work while she was on maternity leave so that her constituents wouldn't be left without representation in that way. So it really has taken its time. And as you say, I think the fact that women are now more in these roles means that it's pointing up these loopholes in the system. And really, we've muddled through, frankly, over the last few years. Good old muddling through seems to be the way a lot of the time.

But I mean, I suppose you need a woman sometimes to go first to sort out these gaps. What's Suella Braverman said about it? Because obviously now people will be jostling to having a very unusual situation of someone to cover her on her mat leave. Yeah. Are you hearing about that?

Yeah, I mean, I've tried to call her and she hasn't answered the phone so far today. I think there is a slightly separate issue with her because as you said, she's a she's a law officer. She's the attorney general. So she does attend cabinet, but she has these other legal responsibilities. And I think the other element to this, what's forced this issue at the moment is because apparently her responsibilities, her legal responsibilities cannot be delegated to somebody else. So, of course, if you're a minister, particularly a junior minister, of course, someone else can step in for six months. That is harder if you're either a cabinet minister.

Imagine if you had a health secretary at the moment, you know, that would be a slightly more difficult role to fill. But with a law officer, apparently you can't delegate those responsibilities. So that is what has really forced this issue and meant that it's going to be formalised through the law, hopefully next week. Thank you for taking us through it. The BBC's deputy political editor, Vicky Young, there, on muddling through. Now, 33 years ago this month, Mary McCourt's daughter, Helen, was murdered.

Her killer was convicted on overwhelming forensic evidence but refused to reveal the location of her body. Mary, now 77, has never given up on finding her daughter. This fight has led her through countless muddy fields and riverbanks and Merseyside and also courtrooms and corridors of power and eventually into the statute books. Helen's Law, which came into effect at the beginning of this year, makes it a legal requirement for the Parole Board

to take into account a killer's failure to disclose the location of their victim's remains when considering them for release. However, Mary was not able to prevent the release of Helen's murderer last year after he had served 31 years. He is now out. She's now written a book called Justice for Helen, a mother's quest to find her murdered daughter. She joins me now. Good morning. Good morning, Mary. I'm hoping we've got you there. I am slightly worried that you have got your Zoom there, your video call on mute.

So if we could just unmute you and then I will be able to hear your voice and so will all of our listeners. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm sorry we have to be distant from each other, but that's the times we're living in. Just if I can start by taking you back to February 1988, you were, in your own words, your average, hardworking, devoted mum.

You had a very close relationship with Helen, your then 22 year old daughter. She lived at home. She rang you lots during the day from work tell us a bit more about her first of all well Helen was um she was she was very much a mixer and right through right right through her life as as a child uh when my son was born uh just over two years after Helen's birth and uh yeah and he was her baby you know I'll look after the baby mummy and you'll go and see to the washing and cleaning up and and she was just always that that way she was very good with uh anybody being upset she would go and give them a kiss and a cuddle and and as her life went on that's how she was and I've had uh her friends from uh junior school and senior school and and they contact me on Facebook and they each one has said Helen was the nicest girl in school and she was so good to everyone if somebody was

being left out she would go and get them and so that that was the kind of a person she was I'd never known her to have a fallout with any of her friends and she had a lot of them and uh so I was just going to say you you've dedicated the rest of your life to trying to find her body. And well, I'm a mum, aren't I? And if I went into, if a mum goes into a shop and then can't find the child, you know, they wouldn't go home and say, oh, well, I've had a good look around the shop and I can't see her. So I'll just let somebody know you wouldn't go and and that's how it is for me I can't let go until I've found her or at least

just being able to say that last goodbye you know families whose loved ones are murdered, it's devastating for them. You never expect for a loved one to be murdered. You always think it happens to someone else. And it's devastating for them. I help to run a support group for supports after murder and manslaughter. So I see all of this with all our families. And everyone will say to me I don't know how you cope Mary because at least we've been able to have a funeral and say goodbye

and for families like me and there are quite a few of them we have over 50 families that we know are in the same situation as me. And for them, you know, they will go out looking if they can. I've always done that. My family's done that. And the only time I haven't gone out is during this lockdown from last March. How does it feel? Because you have changed the law for other families, you have achieved that. And of course, that has to be tested. And we have to see how that plays

out. But how does it feel that the law you've spent your life also fighting for ever since this, this awful thing happened to you and your family couldn't work for you, because it didn't mean you could stop her killer from walking free without disclosing her whereabouts. Well, I think that's all came about because of when we went into the course of human rights. And up till then, we always heard that they had to show remorse. Now, to show remorse for their criminal act, they would have to say what they did with their victim's body. And none of that counts now. So Helen's Law was so important to try and get these killers

to at least, when they come up before a parole board to um to uh but for the parole judges to question them and say well why won't you tell the victim's family where they can recover the their loved one and and i think that is the main important thing. I know that the chief executive of the parole board just before Christmas put out, which I thought was very unfair of him to do, by the way, he put out a news to go out to all around the country, to a news agency. agency and um and basically it was uh nobody nobody no parole is not really going to have it he implied it's not going to have any effect so i'm now having to fight to make sure that this is followed up your whole life ever since this happened has been a fight. Do you still believe, I know you're now 77, you've got this book out, do you still believe that you can find her? After all these years,

I find it very difficult, Emma, to think that I may be able to give helen that last goodbye i i because he's being released now he's he wouldn't tell me when he was in prison he's not going to tell me now while he's out because uh he's he he's assuming that people will believe he's innocent. And Helen's book, Over Helen's Law, the reason for doing that is for all the other families. It won't help me, but I'm hoping it will help all the other families in the same situation. Mary, thank you so much for your time today

and all the best to you. Thank you, Emma. Mary McCourt there. The book is called Justice for Helen, a mother's quest to find her murdered daughter. Many of you getting in touch to respond to what you've just heard and with full sympathies and support towards Marie there with all that she does.

Now you've been getting in touch throughout the programme. I asked you right at the beginning about your living space and how you've perhaps adapted it and what it's been like during lockdown and this is because you may have hacked your living space if you live alone, have children or just a partner you need some more distance from of course not everybody will be able to

I must stress that open plan living though has been the fashion for a long time but now are we seeing a backlash mother of four Amy Harty took things into her own hands and created an extra bedroom in her three bed house for just £140. She joins me now, along with Laura-Jane Clark, architect and contributor to BBC Two's Your Home Made Perfect. Warm welcome to you both. Amy, you got out your toolbox and you created a room for your daughter. Yes, far easier than I expected it to be, to be honest.

Amy, your line is a little bit difficult at the moment. We're just going to see if we can improve that and we'll come back to you in just a moment because we definitely want to hear about that. And I know that your daughter needed some space from your sons. Let me just go to Laura first. Are we seeing a backlash from Open Plan? Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's really, it's a sad indictment of the times that a lot of landlords and house builders prioritise profit over the quality of actual living space. And I think there's a total lack of thought of what people really need. And this last year has really highlighted how our homes are not working for us. And I have seen a big shift just in the last couple of years, really, away from this huge open kitchen living space to a bit more of a considered approach and looking for more intimate spaces in the home, whether it's just the window seat, which is one of my favorite things in the whole wide world um or separate utility space and i think what amy's done is really symbolic of the move um from

homeowners owner from homeowners and renters to really take ownership of their space so it's been a massive wake-up call and really accelerated a shift i think was happening anyway but we're going to get amy back on on the line because i believe it's her internet that's that's playing up um but in terms of what you could do yourself, we'll hear from Amy about how she did it. But for people who are listening, perhaps who aren't that confident, can you give them some ideas about how to perhaps divvy up the little space or bigger space they may have? Yeah, I mean, if you're renting or if you've got a house that you don't really or you're not confident to actually build in, room dividers are fantastic screens to separate a space.

But you've also got open shelving units. They've got little kind of compartmental sections, which are great. And I used to have them in my old rented flat. So you can have books in one ornaments but you know boxes to close off an area so they're really simple inexpensive ways to change a space or just to kind of create a little bit of um separation when you really need it or things like using a really nice piece of furniture um i in my office at the moment i've got a really nice old 1960s writing desk i got from ebay 50 quid and it's useful she's not picking up so rather

than having you know a really you know office chair and kind of sitting on the dinner table it's kind of creating a little space that you can close off at night and that you know even if you're working from your bedroom it doesn't feel like you're kind of in your office. That works for homeschooling, homeworking, everything really. Yes. Well, let's see if we can just get Amy back up. I'm hoping that the connection is a bit better, Amy. I think we were trying to reach you on the phone to improve it. I'm obviously doing this during a pandemic when everything's all a bit technically awry. Amy, tell us how you did it. Let's see if the line's any better.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Let's go with that. Oh, sorry. I have made the children turn all their devices off to try and improve it. It's a lot better. Go on. Tell us how you did it. OK, so I did lots of research on the Internet. I absolutely love DIY anyway. So I'm pretty experienced in um making things and building things but never a room before so i did lots of research in how you can erect a stud

wall um i did look into the room dividers that la mentioned before making this decision but my children are quite young and they're they're very lively and boisterous and I don't think a room divider would have lasted very long so I decided to go with a more permanent structure that I hopefully they will not be able to break I've seen I've break. I've seen images of it. It looks brilliant. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it is a small space. You know, my house isn't big anyway. And it fits everything in there that she needs. You know, she's got a full size single bed, her own little wardrobe and a bedside table.

She has insisted on a TV being put in as well. That's a whole other debate. But you basically put up this wall. It cost £140, is that right? Yeah, I mean, it did surprise me how inexpensive it was to actually create the wall. All the materials, obviously, I listed online when I put a post on the internet on a DIY page explaining how I'd done it.

And yeah, it was really cheap to do. I mean, obviously, physically, it was quite hard work, but not really technically. You know, once you read all the information available online, it was quite straightforward. And it was because you wanted your daughter to have some space from her brothers why has that been so important during lockdown oh it's been far more important now than it was before i mean she was sharing a bedroom with her two brothers one older and one younger than her which the lockdown worked fine because you know they're at school all day and they're only really sleeping in their bedrooms but now because we're homeschooling

I'm trying to keep them all separate so they don't interfere with each other whilst they're trying to do their work. I mean obviously they're all different ages so different levels of work that they're doing and this you know her having her own bedroom means that she's got her own quiet space to sit and focus and she actually is the best one for doing her schoolwork so i think she deserved to have that space well a room of one's own that's why it's so important well done you on on creating it's a huge hugely inspirational laura jane clark we've had a message here saying at the start of lockdown, I built a desk in our attic. There's only just enough height to sit on a chair and it's a bit chilly.

There are no windows, but it's a space away from the rest of daily life that means I can leave my work out and it doesn't need clearing away at mealtimes. It's also a space where a nine month old can sleep on me while our older boy is resisting homeschooling. That's from Loftus. So that importance, as you were describing, of your own space. Laura-Jane Clark, thank you so much for your time and your expertise there. And lovely to hear from you too, Amy. Good luck with the four children at home and dealing with all that goes with that. And you can get them back on the internet now. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello. Did you know that in a million years, there'll be no more total solar eclipses because

the moon is gradually moving away from the earth? Or that during China's cultural revolution, people were arrested for bourgeois habits, like keeping a pet or wearing tight trousers? I'm Melvin Bragg, and those are two of the extraordinary things I've learned while presenting the latest series of In Our Time. Each week, I ask three expert academic guests to break down and illuminate everything from quantum gravity to the nature of humanity, from Confucius to Augustus, from Beowulf to Boudicca. So if you're curious about the world around you,

or you simply want to win your next general knowledge quiz, subscribe to In Our Time on BBC Sounds. was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.