Woman's Hour - Harriet Harman and election reaction, Sports Day, France Me Too

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

There are a record number of women MPs in the new parliament. Nuala McGovern is joined by former Mother of the House and now chair of the charity the Fawcett Society, Harriet Harman, who wants to set up a Women’s Caucus made up of female MPs. We also have political reaction from journalists Rachel Cunliffe and Caroline Wheeler.Is sports day something that teaches children invaluable life lessons, or simply an annual event that demoralises? Nuala is joined by journalist Esther Walker and comedian Helen Thorn to discuss further. The French film industry has been under the spotlight in recent months after allegations of sexual assault and harassment by women against directors and actors. Last month, the French parliament agreed to create a commission to investigate sexual and gender based violence in the industry and other cultural sectors. Some of the allegations have been put forward by the actor and director Judith Godrèche who joins Nuala on the programme to discuss the issues.Yorkshire County Cricket Club has retrospectively awarded caps to women’s players who have represented their county to recognise their commitment and their importance to the Club – spanning nearly 90 years of history. Jane Powell, President of Yorkshire County Cricket Club who captained England and played for Yorkshire for 12 years from 1980 to 1991, and also received a cap herself joins Nuala to discuss. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a great weekend. Well, in a moment, the woman who has been the UK's longest continuously serving female MP and had the title of Mother of the House, it's Harriet Harman. She will be on about the record number of women now in Parliament. Also today, the French actor and director, Judith Godrich, on why she has decided to speak out now

about her personal Me Too experience in France. We have also a star of women's cricket who has now, after many, many years, been recognised by Yorkshire Cricket Club. She received a cap for representing her county, Jane Powell, also coming up this hour, and staying on sports. What about sports day?

Love it? Hate it? Was it the highlight of the school year? Or do you think it's time for it to go, as some people have been saying? They say it's too competitive, also among parents. Others say, no, this is an important day where you learn to lose. Well, I have two guests who are parents and they are very much ready to give you their thoughts on it. But let us begin.

A record number, as I mentioned, of women are in the UK Parliament following Labour's landslide general election win. 264 female MPs will now take up their places in the House of Commons. That is a figure that just surpasses 40% for the first time in UK history. Let me give you another little bit of history, which I think you know. The country now has its first female Chancellor,

Rachel Reeves. She will be on her feet in just under 30 minutes' time, actually, delivering her first speech focusing on growth and also house building. Also today, Sir Keir Starmer will likely take a photo

with the entirety of his MPs. Some asking, could we see a return of the 1997 photo of Tony Blair with his babes, as they were called? Don't know whether that word will go down so well today. In a moment, we'll have political reaction

from two senior female journalists, Rachel Cunliffe from The New Statesman and also The Sunday Times' Caroline Wheeler. But first, I am joined by someone keen to make the most out of the amount of women that are now in Parliament, ex-Labour MP, former Mother of the House, as I mentioned, Harriet Harman. She did post on X

that she's creating a cross-party women's caucus in her new role as the chair of the charity, the Fawcett Society. Welcome back to Women's Hour. Your reaction to the news with that figure?

I think it's amazing. 264 women across all parties, Labour, Tories, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, there's only Reform, don't have women. And I think that is in itself a fantastic thing that this is more women than ever before. But the key thing is what they're going to do to deliver for women in this country. And as you just said, Nuala, we've got a woman Chancellor now, we've also got who said she's dedicated to equal pay and who's declared herself a feminist. We've got Yvette Cooper, who's obviously committed on

the question of, she's Home Secretary, a question of domestic violence and rape. We've got Bridget Philipson in education concerned about childcare. So the question is, can these 264 women in the House of Commons, who've actually all got a shared agenda on these issues, can they form themselves into a kind of mighty and subversive group actually determined to help the government to deliver for women in this country? Because it's not just being there, it's what you do when you get there. And there will be high expectations on those women. So what would the priorities be as you see them at the moment? Well, I think I would say childcare, you know, for most working mothers, and it's mostly mothers who deal with the childcare issues, it's unaffordable, inaccessible, you know, women are just tearing their hair out about it, inflexible, what happens during the school holidays, you know, it's long overdue for that to be delivered on. I think that in amongst all the priorities there are within the Home Office and Cabinet are very committed, but it's hard in government

and you actually need vocal, agitating support. And I think if it's cross-party, that's really important. Actually, although Labour have got a very big majority and most of the women are Labour, there's 160 women, I think people appreciate it in the country when people leave their party issues behind and work together and find common cause. And on these issues to do with women, I think they can do that. So hopefully before the summer recess, before the House rises for the summer, there will be this meeting of all the women MPs across party to decide how they take it forward. And I'll go to that in just a moment. But just on the childcare aspect, because we've debated this quite a lot in the campaign. And some would say

that the Conservatives really took a big step forward with 30 hours of childcare. Well, they did. That commitment was a big step forward. But the problem has been, for many, it's not a reality because they're on long waiting lists

and there aren't enough providers. So I think that that just shows that everybody's committed to the theory of it. But actually, everybody knows that in practice, there aren't enough providers. So I think that that just shows that everybody's committed to the theory of it. But actually, everybody knows that in practice, it's still very much a nightmare. And, you know, it's just one of those things where the rhetoric is further ahead than the reality. So I think that with 264 women MPs behind it, it can be made a reality. And there's always competition in government for resources. You know, masses of demands on the education department for spending on resources.

But actually, a sort of mighty regiment of women MPs will hopefully make childcare a priority. And that will make a huge sigh of relief for women in this country. But it is about getting the staff in those childcare deserts, as they've been called. I mean, does Labour have a specific proposal for that? Well, you know, no doubt Bridget Phillips and the educational secretary will come out with her workforce plan. And undoubtedly, it's about improving the status and qualifications. You know, it used to be the case that everybody thought, oh, childcare, anybody can do it. You know, it's just kind of unskilled labour. It's not. It's really important

childhood development. So she'll need a workforce plan. But really, for everything these women in the Cabinet are doing that affects women, they need cheerleaders out there who've got their backs and who will be actually encouraging them and supporting them so that when they come up against all the different priorities that their colleagues will have in cabinet, they will know that they've got 264 women across five parties, all who want this, and that will help them deliver. It's interesting, as you say it, and you made this announcement on X or Twitter, as some of us are still calling it. But there was pushback.

Some saying there are already cross-body parties. Here's a response from Rosie Duffield, the MP, to your proposal saying, female MPs have and will continue to work together effectively. We don't need outside bodies organising us to do that. We work around specific issues and legislation. Your response? I totally agree. I mean,

it's not the Fawcett Society that will be running this. I'm this. Fawcett's convening the meeting of women MPs just in order to get it going. Rosie's absolutely right. I mean, there are individual groups within Powell, or it could be run by, chaired by the new chair of the Women and Equality Committee, whoever that is, or it could be chaired by the mother of the house, who's Diane Abbott. So really, it's just about kick-starting it and taking it forward. It's definitely not for Fawcett to be running it.

No, it's the women MPs themselves. So, you know, Rosie's absolutely right on this. I'm just going to help book the room and get it going. Okay, and that's very good to have that clarity, I believe, because there was a lot of pushback about the role of the Fawcett Society if they had one

within that organisation. And I should also say Labour MP Rosie Duffield for those that may not be aware. Also on the Labour Party, we contacted them this morning, but we've yet to hear back. But as I speak to you, there's no cabinet minister appointed for the Women and Equalities Brief. Does that strike you as strange? Because we've had so many appointments so far. I don't know what the arrangements for that are going to be.

And no doubt we'll hear soon enough. But the really important thing is not just the machinery of government and having a strong government equality office and having a champion in the cabinet, but actually delivering for women in the country. A couple of other issues which people continue to bring up as they kind of digest what has happened over the past few days. Still no female leader of the Labour Party. You have served, I should say, as interim leader back in 2015. But why do you think Labour hasn't produced a woman in the most powerful position when the Conservatives have had three?

Well, I mean, you know, it's embarrassing and terrible that we haven't, bearing in mind Labour regards itself as the party of women and equality. By the way, I do want to just say how fantastic it's going to be having Angela Rayner

as deputy prime minister. But as you say, Nuala, we haven't had a prime minister or even a leader of the Labour Party who's been a woman except on an interim basis. And the way that I've kind of sort of explained it, although there's no justification for it, is that women in the Labour Party are often more subversive and challenging than women in their own party in the Tories, because we've got a critique which says that this is about the misallocation of power and the unequal distribution of power, you know, in the workplace,

in the home and in politics. And somehow that feels more uncomfortable to men, whereas the Tory women tend to be more in the flow of doing things in the normal way rather than challenging all the power structures. That's a bit of a sort of intellectual kind of justification and probably might not have any basis to it. But really, there's no justification for it. But I'm just hoping we're not going to have any leadership elections for an extremely long time, because hopefully Keir will be in, you know, for a long time. Well, do you consider yourself subversive and challenging? I have been. I have been subversive and challenging.

And the things that we've suggested, like on all women's shortlists, which actually got women into the House of Commons, insisting on women in the shadow cabinet. I mean, it was terrible pushback all the time. Oh, this is undermining the men. You know, we want it on merit when in fact it was just discrimination and very unfair and women need to needed to have their place. So, yeah, there is always a pushback. And also with Trump and the kind of a lot of the misogyny in reform, there is backlash at the moment. And the women in the House of Commons need to be really well organised to deal with this backlash. It's not just, you know, we can't take it for granted the advances we've made because there are a lot of people who want to turn it back. You know, and Nigel Farage and reform, you know, favourably quote Andrew Tate and all of that. And God help us if Trump gets elected, then, you know, that is like a virus that spreads across the Atlantic misogyny.

And we could speak longer and go into detail on that. Of course, a lot of women in the United States delighted that Mr. Trump might be getting back in. Also with Reform, the party that you mentioned there, Anne Whittacombe, was on this programme and she rejected its characterisation as misogynist.

But I do want to ask you, there are rumours that you're set to be appointed the new chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Am I speaking to the next chair of the EHRC? That's just something that's been in the papers.

You know, I have no idea. They've got a chair at the moment, so I don't know what plans they've got. So that is literally just speculation. I'm a former. You're not going to announce it here, is what I think I'm hearing.

Well, there's nothing to announce honestly Dula Wurzah would be an excellent place to announce it but there's nothing to announce I agree with you on that and listeners of course may be aware that the EHRC has been, there's been so much debate about it as well as the balance of transgender

and women's rights Is this something that you think would be one particularly challenging area for whoever becomes the next chair? I think that most people want there to be women's only, based on gender, safe spaces for women when they've suffered from domestic violence or rape. There do need to be single sex spaces, and that is guaranteed in the Equality Act.

Most people want to protect trans women from discrimination as well. And when it comes to the balance between those two rights, I do think, although the legislation is clear and does protect single sex spaces on the basis of biological gender biological sex I think guidance could be issued new clear guidance which makes it clear for people who are running prisons or refuges or rape crisis centers so that nobody's in any doubt that that ability to have a women's only space is there. And I mean, I would look forward to a situation where the kind of toxicity is taken out of this argument and everybody feels that we are protecting women, especially those who've been subjected to violence. And we're also protecting the rights of trans women as well. And I'm sure that we can do both. I will let you go.

Thank you very much for your time. Just one line I read. You said Rachel Reeves has been ready to be Chancellor since she was about 14 years of age. I've known Rachel since she's a very young woman. And she's just, you know, before she was even a teenager, she was beating all the men at chess. She is very clever.

She's very dedicated. She's very serious. And she just wants to do good for the country with her ginormous brain and her good public service, good public spirited service. And I think she'll be she'll be great. You know, I'm really excited about her. Harriet Harman, thank you so much for speaking to us. And I can turn to my two political correspondents who are joining us now. I wonder, did they get arrested all over the weekend? Probably not. Rachel Cunliffe is the Associate Political Editor at The New Statesman. Caroline Wheeler, Political Editor of The Sunday Times. Welcome to you both. Mentioning there Rachel Reeves, of course, and a little Harriet Harman was giving us how she knows her. Tell us a little bit more about how she will, I suppose, step into this role. I enjoyed hearing Harriet just then mention Rachel Reeves and her chess proficiency. I think that is one of the stories about her that I've always found interesting,

is her and her sister, who's also serving in the Cabinet, the first time we've ever had two sisters serving in the Cabinet, going to chess championships when they were state school girls and being widely underestimated by all the posh public school boys

they were competing against, and that memory having stayed with them and I imagine that as a first female chancellor there's a bit of that sort of showing up public school boys attitude in in Rachel Rose she starts with her history uh making history in that role but I think uh that that sense of public service that sense sense of security has been at the heart of what Rachel has. Rachel Rees has been trying to do as a shadow chancellor, this idea that she's going to bring in a new sort of form of economics that is based on secure-nomics, based on cost of living crisis, based on getting the fundamentals right of the economy so people feel secure in their jobs.

And that is the way to get productivity kickstarted in this country. So that sounds like, Rachel, that you're expecting her to speak to those issues when she makes her first speech, which I suppose will be in about 10 minutes time. Yeah, we're going to get it very shortly. I think the priority in this speech in particular is going to be laying out in a bit more detail labour's plan on housing and house building obviously that has been at the heart of the manifesto building new towns uh building on uh potentially re-evaluating some

of that land around cities that isn't being well enough used and that is something that really is at the heart of Britain's productivity crisis. If we can't build in this country, if people can't live near where the jobs are, if they can't get those jobs and people can't get a good start in life, that is one of the key things that's holding us back. It's also probably one of the most contentious and controversial aspects of Labour's plan because new building, the Conservatives tried it, it's not always very very popular so really starting with that on day one getting the unpopular stuff out pretty much immediately I think is going to give them a chance to possibly make some progress on

that as quickly as possible while we're still all getting used to this idea of a new Labour government. So I've been speaking about Labour this morning really since their landslide victory as it has been called Caroline but let's talk about the Conservative Party as well quite a government. So I've been speaking about Labour this morning, really since their landslide victory, as it has been called, Caroline. But let's talk about the Conservative Party as well. Quite a few high profile women who lost their seats on Thursday. How are you seeing that? Any particular ones that surprised you? Well, I think obviously there were a lot that were expected. And of course, I think the one that most of us were watching for particularly keenly was Penny Morden, because she had been tipped as a future Conservative Party leader and had sort of been in the mix for that role for some time,

obviously having stood before. And so, I mean, that's going to be a big loss for the One Nation caucus that elect basically in the Conservative Party, because she was one of the kind of standard bearers for that particular wing of the party. And of course, we also saw Gillian Keegan, the education secretary, who before some of the gaffes that she made, saying some really unfortunate things off camera about people being a bit lazy when it came to dealing with some of the particular issues had been seen again as being a really rising star within the Conservative Party. But I guess the person that really sort of shocked us a little bit more than most was to see Liz Truss lose her seat, the former Prime Minister. And there'd been some inkling that this might be on the cards, but she hadn't been

one of the kind of dead certs to lose her seat. So for me, that was the kind of Michael Portillo moment of the evening. And of course, there will be lots of people, perhaps within her party,

now that will be looking at that and seeing as that as some kind of karma, because many of them blame the mini budget for the reason that they perhaps lost their seats. Although actually, I think that might be quite unfair, given the huge collapse in trust, I think, in the Conservative Party, which I believe started way before her with Boris Johnson and Partigate.

So you did it. You felt it was more compounding than the catalyst. Let me turn back to you, Rachel, for a moment. Angela Rayner, the new Deputy Prime Minister, as Harriet Harman was mentioning there, a little about her backstory? Well, I think her backstory has actually been quite prominently discussed on the campaign, just because of how inspirational it is and the sort of message it sends. Angela Rayner dropped out of school at 16. She was pregnant. She worked as a care worker. She has direct experience in that sector,

which is obviously one of the major crisis this country faces. She worked her way up through the trade union movement. We all know a little bit about her council house just because of the slight row over quite the sale of it and some confusion there. But she is a sort of figurehead, as it were, for social mobility and right to buy in the sense that she was able through working hard to eventually buy and own her own house. And I think having someone like that, a woman that prominent as deputy prime Minister is a statement. It's a statement about what can be possible in this country, but also about someone who really understands the challenges that people

from all kinds of backgrounds face. We're going to have the most state-educated cabinet in history. I believe that there are only two private school educated people in Keir Starmer's cabinet, I could be wrong on that. But you have real people in that cabinet who have experience of the challenges that the government is going to try and solve. Now, that is not to say that one needs to have direct experience in order to know, you know, we need to fix the care system, you don't have to have worked in the care system to understand that's a major problem. But I do think having people who have been at the sharp end of government failures in the past will offer a change of perspective and how this new government wants to address some of those challenges. I want to thank you both very much for speaking to us. Caroline Wheeler,

Political Editor of the Sunday Times and Rachel Cunliffe, Associate Political Editor at the New Statesman and previous to them, Harriet Harman. We will continue, of course, to discuss all these issues that continue to come up as we get used to a new government following the general election on last Thursday. Yes, it's not even

a week. But I'm going to move on to something completely different now on Women's Hour. I'm going to move on to egg and spoon races, welly boot throws and the much anticipated mum and dad's races. Sports Day is this annual event, stirs up a lot of emotion in people from what I've been reading. So I'm asking, is it a good thing? Does it teach children how to win or how to lose graciously,

how to cheer for their peers? Or is it time to move on from that tradition? Too much competition. It should be shifted to other areas of school life. how to cheer for their peers? Or is it time to move on from that tradition? Too much competition. It should be shifted to other areas of school life. Well, I'm joined by the journalist and writer, Esther Walker, and also comedian Helen Thorne, you might know from the Scummy Mummies podcast.

Welcome to you both. To you first, Esther. If I say sports day, what do you think of? I think of, well, luckily, my most recent experiences with my children have overlaid my own experiences of kind of total horror of the whole thing but i think well i not a sporty child and the sports day wasn't managed particularly well at the schools that i was at so it was i mean they didn't really care if you were totally humiliated by the entire thing and sport wasn't a

big it wasn't a kind of you know it wasn't a big cultural thing in either of my schools. So there was not really any sport throughout the year. And then suddenly there was the sports day thing. So I just was always on cleanup crew, which I now really regret because I saw the other kids in my school coming last and not caring and enjoying, like just joining in and having fun. And I feel regretful about that. But with my children, particularly with my son, who was very sporty and was at a school where sport was prioritized and valued his sports day was always it was his sports day was always pretty good because it was part of a wider culture of of competition and so there was less pressure on sports day and it was just the the kids were

fine about it what about you Helen you grew up in Australia I should say as well yes uh and and being sporty is is you know defining it defines your personality you know the sporty kids were always the popular kids and also I was always last I was very good at shot put that was the only thing I always used to say I'm built for comfort not for speed um so I could do that but we were made to wear what we call bloomers which were basically big pairs of knickers. So, you know, if you were just a little bit bigger than skinny, you felt humiliated and it was always really hot. You were sunburned and very competitive, you know. But I must say, moving to the UK, competitive parents takes it to a whole new level.

OK, let's talk about this. Because I was reading some articles over a number of years, might I add, of like sports days being cancelled because of the behaviour of parents. Dreadful, dreadful behaviour. Talk me through it, because I haven't been to a kid's sports day. So what could I expect? Well, there's different breeds, isn't there, Esther? I mean, and it is, I think the real sport is the parents. You know, the parents who come there very early, they get their deluxe camping chairs.

They've got their cool boxes. And I put a thing out on Instagram this morning and a PE teacher said that some of the parents film the race so they can dispute whether their child has come. Esther. Esther Walker. I have done that actually. Yeah, I have. Give us your thinking behind it. This was in a previous school where there

wasn't a culture of competition right so all the pressure was on sports day and my son who was quite sporty this was really meaningful to him whether he was not he was going to win this like year two race or whatever it was and the and the award was given the award the first thing was prize was given to the wrong kid and I rang rang my husband and I said, look, I've got video footage of this. I'm going to complain. And he said, do not complain. He went, do not do that because he's really sporty and he's grown up with loads of sport. And he was like, don't be that parent.

You do not say a word. You just say to Sam, sorry, mate, try again next year. And I didn't complain, but I was very annoyed about it. Sounds like you've really moved on, Esther. I have really moved on but the important thing is that we moved to a school where they understand that if you're going to have a competition among children you have to take it really seriously. Even if it's an egg and spoon or a sack race or a three-legged race. I mean I don't think of those things as that serious but maybe I'm wrong. No no but I think that there are different not every school does the egg and spoon race and the sack race.

And my son's school, which is the only experience I really have, Sports Day, they ditch the egg and spoon and the sack race in kind of year four. And they just do kind of running races and sort of like throwing a tennis shot put and stuff like that. And I think that if you're going to do that, then you have to, and the school film the races so that there's no question. This is like VAR, right? Well, they take it really seriously and they understand that if you're going to compete, you have to take it seriously. Maybe that's the question. Should Sports Day be taken that seriously? Well, look, I come from, you know, southeast London and we are a bit more chilled, right?

We're a bit more chilled out there. You know, there was the competitive parents race. There was an incident with a mum who bought her running spikes. So she had a focus. I think I was wearing sandals and I'm probably wearing a hangover as well. But I liked it because the kids had, they were mixed up from the year groups. They were in, you know, they were in countries instead of their classes and things like that.

There was bouncy things. And I, as a person who was majorly put off sport until my 40s and still went through therapy, I think encouraging any movement, a joy of team sports, of participation. There will always be opportunities for kids who are good at sport. But I think with these sort of experiences, I think people can be marginalised and made to feel like they're not good and that will put them off sport for life.

And I think we've got a culture at the moment where children are very sedentary. If we can encourage a love of movement and sport and inclusion, then I think that's just as important, Esther, as filming the winning. I'm putting it out there, but I know as soon as you say sports day to the majority of parents, they all go, ugh. It's all, you know, it's really hard. Oh, so there's no collective joy about it.

No. Yeah. But I am thinking, Esther, with the filming and the whatnot and taking it seriously because life as we know is not fair and sometimes you lose and you've got to accept it is there that lesson to be learned not once a year if you want to build resilience in children that's a daily project and I think that putting all the focus on sports day is you know you can do it if you like but I think you're going to get tears and you're not teaching the children anything particularly not in primary school because in primary school there is often the case that you get one kid who is randomly bigger than everyone else and they are just going to win everything so what you're teaching with that

is if you haven't got the natural ability don't bother because you're just going to lose i think if you i think the ideal situation is if sports day is in a wider culture of competition one minute left on this should parents be banned from attending i have heard that happen in schools because the children are that the parents were so badly behaved and um yeah i think i think that i think that's fine i don't know there's any need for parents to be at sports though. Absolutely not. Yep. You heard it here on Women's Hour. One from Sam from Bristol. My son is disabled. I found sports day to be ableist, rigid and not adaptive.

I just keep him at home for the day when it's on. What does that teach him about our society? Thanks very much for getting in touch Sam. 84844 if you do want to get in touch on any of the topics that you've heard this morning. I do want to thank my guests, Esther Walker and Helen Horne, for coming into the Women's Hour studio

to discuss Sports Day. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now, as we move on, we talk about elections in the UK. France, as well, as you might know, had elections over the weekend. And despite the predictions for a big win for the far right in France, it was the left who clinched it. Emmanuel Macron's centre is staging an unexpected comeback. And they pushed then the far-right National Rally, or RN as they're called, into third. But what's also in the news in France, and you mightn't have seen this development,

it is a French Me Too story. The French film industry has been under the spotlight. This is after a number of women made allegations of sexual assault and harassment against directors and actors. Last month the French Parliament agreed to create a commission to investigate sexual and gender-based violence in the industry and also other cultural sectors. And the catalyst for this

was the allegations that were put forward by my next guest. She is the French actor and director, Judith Godrej. And in February this year, Miss Godrej filed a complaint against the film director, Benoit Jacquel, accusing him of historical rape when she was 14 in

1986, and also subsequent offences in a relationship that lasted into the 1990s. Speaking on a French radio show, Judith has also made allegations of sexual assault about another well-known French director. His name is Jacques Doyon, and that was when she was 15. Both men, I should say, strongly deny the allegations.

And also in France, this was in French media reporting over the past few days, there were separate allegations from Judith's from two other female actors. And then there were reports that Jacques Doyon and Benoit Jacot were taken into police custody for questioning over allegations of historic sexual abuse. Mr. Doyon was released on medical grounds, but Mr. Jacot has been charged

with raping two female actors. As I mentioned, these are separate from Judith's allegations. Mr. Jacot's lawyer has said he will appeal the charges. Well, Judith joined me from France a little earlier this morning, and she began by telling me about her experience with the French director, Benoit Jacot. We're talking today, and it's actually the first time, the first interview I'm giving since. And when something happens to you that's so violent but yet you know that society that

you know when you when you grow up in an environment and in a society and working as a young actress met this very successful like beloved author and And, and, you know, what happened to me at the time is something that took me years to put words on because I had no clue what was happening to me. And, and I fell under the power and, and this is a person who even could, you know, was fascinating adults also, like, you know, they are french actors and actresses who were adult completely fascinated by this person and i was 14 and you know he did put a spell on me and decided and had a whole you know plan and you know i i did not know what was happening to me at And I only knew what the story was written by him. And I was a character.

It took me years to become too. And I think I'm still, you know, somehow feeling the power of that authority. And that, you know, he became like a parent to me, like a father figure. He was 25 years older than you when you were 14. I should say you are 52 now, is that correct? Yes. Just to kind of give people an idea of the timescale and also that the statute of limitations has passed with your particular case.

Yes. And you called him like an auteur or the director that he was at the time. Could you outline for our listeners what your relationship was with Benoit Jaco? I'm going to describe it with obviously the words of someone who's been through, you know, what I've been through since. And the way that I see it is like being kidnapped and being, you know, brainwashed and, you know, being, um, um, yeah, groomed into, um, um, someone who basically the only thing that as a 14 year old to I stayed six years you know I left once and like I said I tried to leave many times but you know it was I was completely like in a sort of a

I I had a relationship with this man that was the word relationship only works here because we need to put a word like this is not a relationship. A relationship should be something that both people have decided to go to. You know, a relationship is a relation. It's something that starts with a dialogue between two people who are able to consent to this relationship. I did not have a relationship. I was under the authority, the power, the intelligence, the manipulation of an adult who took me, you know, young actress, a very, you know, I was a very lonely kid and I was a dreamer of like writing and becoming an

actress. And, and I was a very, um, um, you know, romantic, like sort of like very, very, very naive in a way that, you know, like any 14 year old is. And so, you know, if someone decides that they're going to take that person and make them into something that is theirs, then you belong to them. Was anyone aware around you at that point? Of course, everyone. And starting by all his friends and all the cinema and all the people from this industry who were, you know, and even in interviews, he would, you know, which is going back to your question. One of the reasons why I spoke out was because someone, I directed a TV show called Icon of French Cinema that was streamed on Arte in France and co-produced by A24. And this TV show, so basically it's the story of a French woman who lived in America, which is obviously me, comes back to France to sort of face her demons

and tries to become an actress again or at least start her over. But she's visited by her memories of her childhood and and and how she became an actress and in that tv show i'm sort of like you know i'm telling the story but i'm not like saying any names i'm not pointing fingers it's not you know it was not per se a me too show and it's a comedy and it's it also all the flashbacks are dramatic but i wasn't saying it all if you can say and and then i started receiving messages on instagram and a woman sent me a link to an interview in le monde to an article actually that was about a documentary directed by gerard Miller, the psychoanalyst.

And it was a documentary where Benoit Jaco was interviewed and he was basically talking about how he was with me as a child and was basically saying how fun it was to be illegal and how he thought cinema and making movies was a cover for a traffic of young, yeah, a traffic of actresses. Like he was basically speaking out like,

and this wasn't, you know, not that long ago and was basically very proudly facing camera and smiling and laughing and talking about me and this relationship we had as if I was an object, as if I did not exist and as if I wasn't a person who could speak for herself. And I have not read that article or seen that piece of journalism that you were speaking about there. But was the fact that he was speaking out in that way, as you describe it, your reason for coming forward? Yeah, it was seeing this man, you know,

a few years ago, talking, facing camera with images, you know, and it was edited with images of me as a young girl, which actually on the images, I'm 17, which I already look like a child. So imagine what I looked like when I was 14. And him commenting this and saying that I, you know, I, Judith, as a 14 year old was excited. In the interview, he says I'm 15, but he probably knows what he's doing. But I was actually 14 when we met. And he says that Judith was excited because of the illegality of this. So a couple of things. One, the age of consent was changed to 15 just recently in France, that you mentioned there that he had said that was the age that you were.

But reading that or hearing about that from other people, talk me through how that felt. I mean, that literally felt like my body, I mean, I basically wasn't an intellectual reaction or, you know, I wasn't even able to formulate how I felt. I basically threw up. And then I started shaking and shaking and uh my my my kids were waiting for me for dinner I was I could not leave my room I was locked in I I just stayed on my bed and just was shaking as if it was like you know I was in the cold winter outside like wearing no clothes I was just completely in shock and, you know, I was in the cold winter outside, like wearing no clothes.

I was just completely in shock. And then, you know, I decided to open my Instagram, which was private, and say his name. Because everybody was sort of, you know, my show, my TV show came out and went to the Deauville Film Festival. And everybody, all the journalists were pretty respectful, I have to say, of my fears. And I didn't want to say his name or Jacques Doyon's name because there's a scene, you know, that he's also... Those two men are in my show sort of mixed together sometimes, and sometimes it's just one of them.

And let me just reiterate that for people that aren't as familiar with Jacques Doyon. He is another French director. You have made allegations and filed a complaint of sexual assault during a film shoot when you were 15. I met him because I was a child writer and actor and I was writing a lot. And he took a story of mine and obviously recorded me in his room, in his office, and then wrote the script. Like, I mean, the script came out and it was called The Girl of 15. And in the script, it was said there's a love scene. He basically, Jacques Doyon, this director, decided that he wanted to be the character and wrote a love triangle between two kids and the father of the son. So I'm playing

Juliet, my best friend has a father and we're going on vacation together. And Jacques Doyon decided that my character has a love affair with him. And he fired Jacques Doyon as a director, fired the actor who had started the film to put himself in the part. So basically, I'm in Ibiza now, filming this in a house, and Jacques Doyon's married to Jane. We're in this setting,

and he is directing this scene where in the script, there's no details. It's just that there's a love scene or they're kissing. But then he asked me to take my sweater off. And it's becoming a scene where he's touching my breast and kissing and kissing, you know, over and over and over. There's multiple scenes like that in the film, or at least kissing scenes. But, you know, this one is without my t-shirt, my sweater. And we did this take at least 25 to 30 times. And it was a complete torture for me, but for Jane, too, who wrote it in her journal, you know, years later. And it was, you know, this bizarre thing. And now that I'm an

adult, a grown up, you know, mother, and, and also women who can think about what other women like her could have gone through, I'm also thinking about her and, and, you know, the guilt that I felt was added to what I was currently going through. It was this so perverted moment, you know, of like having to do this with a man, with his wife behind the, you know, it's just like completely, completely unhealthy. And let me add as well, as a response from Jacques Doyen, he has vehemently denied the allegations and accusations.

We're now in 2024. The MeToo movement really kicked off in 2017 when Harvey Weinstein, particularly there was allegations against him. And I believe you were active at that stage and you've continued to be so. But how would you describe how France has reacted to the Me Too movement? Because now it's a really long time. it is and I understand and also honestly you know because of what I went through in the years that it took me to speak out like I'm not like judging anyone who can't and cannot and I know that you know in France and everywhere else in the world you're just risking your job if you speak out you're there's nothing to gain as an actress as a technician on set as anyone working

in this industry and anywhere else to speak out against you know your fellow uh people who are working with you because you know you are seen as someone who's a troublemaker and someone who's not who's breaking the silence and the omerta. And people are very comfortable in their habits. And what's happening on set in French cinema is still a huge problem for children, for anyone. There's a power, there's a hierarchy that honestly reminds me that we are still an aristocratic country.

For me, we are in such a patriarchal country that there is this head of set, the man who's the most powerful, and then you go down and you go to the younger actress, the younger actors, the technicians. And if these people without as much power speak out, they know that they will not work again. So do you think it's still happening now?

Of course, absolutely, 100%. I mean, you know, I'm on a group of discussion with 800 technicians, female technicians, and yes, and young actresses. And, you know, we worked so hard to sort of bring this to light so that it would stop. But this needs to be, you know, the CNC, the center of cinematography needs to put, to create boundaries, which, you know, needs to put, how can I say? We need to change the system legally and also for producers and people working in this industry need to lose money if they don't respect certain rules. You mentioned to me that if somebody speaks out in France about issues like you have, that it can break your life in half. Did that happen to you? You know, I feel that I have a responsibility towards others. And

as I have a daughter who is an actress, and I've met young actresses who spoke out to me about what they went through recently. I feel that I'm sort of like, I don't have a choice. Like, I feel like sometimes I'm thinking like, oh my God, I'll never act again. Do you think that? Of course. Have people told you that? Yeah, of course. I mean, that's how people told you that? Yeah, of course. I mean, that's a reality. Like, that's not, you know, that's not, um, of course, like, uh, this is, first of all, this is not glamorous. And, and I know, and this is such a stereotyped world and, you know, it sounds terrible to use that but you know the the problem with actresses also and actors i think is that one of the reason why also they it's so hard to speak out is because they have to ask 10 people before knowing what to say before knowing what they should say we always you know

we're living in a world where women are always worried about what they look like, who they should be seen, you know, like as, like, do you want to be seen as a victim? Or this is something that scares so many young actresses who want to speak out. For example, they tell me, I don't want to be known for the first time of my life. I'm a young actress. I'm starting, right?

I don't want to be known as a victim. Like, I don't want the first thing that people know about me before I become the actress, like, before I really put my career like in stone, you know, like, I, I don't want to be known only as I don't want people to be Oh, that's the victim of and then you know, what happens is that it's the name of your abuser that like becomes who like you're defined also one of the reason why I didn't want in my tv show to say names is because I didn't want when I was going to do press for icon of french cinema I didn't want to be people to only say the names of my abuser, talking about what I finally achieved.

This is my work. This is my TV show. I'm so proud of it. It's the one thing that I did that I feel is part of my emancipation from men's control. And, you know, it took me so many years to be able to say, I'm a woman who wants to direct, who's a writer. I'm going to write for myself. My words should not be stolen anymore. The French actor, writer and director Judith Godrej, thanks to her. We did make efforts to contact the representatives of Pope Benoît, Jaco and Jacques d'Orléans for comment, but we did not receive a reply. And I do want to say, if you've been impacted by anything you have heard today,

you can find support links on the Woman's Hour website. Now, I'm going to turn to cricket because Yorkshire County Cricket Club has retrospectively awarded caps to women players who have represented their county to recognise their commitment

and also their importance to the club. and it spans nearly 90 years of history would you believe. Well joining me now is Jane Powell, President of Yorkshire County Cricket Club who captained England and played for Yorkshire for 12 years, that's from 1980 to 1991 and also received a cap herself. Welcome Jane. Good morning, nice to be here. Congratulations on the cap. Thank you so much. It's a real landmark moment for not just me personally, but a number of other women who have at long last been recognised for the work that they've done to keep women's cricket going back in the past.

So let's talk about this. So you decided to give them out now. What has been the path towards that actual moment well it's quite difficult first of all trying to find out how many people have played for Yorkshire so there was a hundred and eight people and then we had the dilemma of who do you award caps to and who don't you and so we decided that anybody who'd represented the club uh over less than 10 years would get a specific cap. But anybody who'd represented over 10 years would get a more, a different cap just to show that we really acknowledged how much they'd committed to the club and how much that they'd given to the county.

And it was a great honour to be able to do that. So what was the reaction of the women when they received them? Oh, it was very special. You know, I saw people with tears in their eyes, with great pride, with great delight. And I saw the members really applauding all these women who'd gone before because you'd be fooled into thinking that women's cricket's only been around for 20 years when it in actual essence

it was formed way back in 1930s and Yorkshire have had a team since 1936 you know so it's been around a long time but to finally acknowledge these women and when we walked them around the pitch after they got their caps it was the reception they got from the members and the crowd was phenomenal. It was a little bit like a Mexican wave. As you walked around, the clapping followed you.

It was very special. I mentioned, you know, you have been spearheading this and you were giving out the caps, but you also received one from former England and Yorkshire cricketer as well, Catherine Siver-Brundt.

What was it like from a personal perspective? I was blown away. I was just going to leave my cap and just pick it up and go with it at the end. But suddenly Catherine took the microphone off me and said a few words and I was blown away because I wasn't aware that when she first came

into England coaching camps at the age of 14, that I was one of the coaches and that she says that she didn't have a great time, but it was because of the kindness that I showed her that she decided to carry on playing. And thank goodness for that, because she's certainly one of the icons of women's cricket. So thank goodness I showed her some kindness. And I'm sure you did to Manny. But why didn't women get caps before for their achievements?

Well, in those days, it was run very much by women volunteers. And also, it was in 1988 when I took the England team out to Australia that I had to debate with the Women's Cricket Association, please could our players wear caps? That was the debate? That was the debate, because you weren't allowed to wear caps because you looked too boyish. So it was only in 88 that we finally were allowed to wear caps to play in. So therefore, nobody had ever thought that you gave caps to people for playing because women didn't wear them. So that was one of the dilemmas that we had way back in the past. Can we describe that? Well, why don't you describe it? I was

just looking at some pictures online, the actual cap. Well, it's a gentlemen and players cap, which in itself makes me laugh because that's the only place you can get caps from is the gentlemen and players. It's a navy blue with a light blue, sky blue quartered cap with gold, yellow braiding into each quarter with a gold tassel. I like the tassel. Yeah, me too. And with everybody's name embroidered on the front as well. So very special. What was it like playing for Yorkshire back in the 80s well. So very special. What was it like playing for Yorkshire

back in the 80s? It was very special. I mean, what were the challenges? So we not only played, but we paid to play for Yorkshire and England. I remember going to Australia in 84, 85 and I got a letter saying, you've been picked to play for England please

send 300 pound. Now 300 pound doesn't sound very much in today's language but back then I found a wage slip and I was a full-time teacher and my pay for that month was 280 pound so it was over a month's salary for me to pay to play for England but you know you did it because you love playing you love the game and you just felt very privileged and very honoured to be representing your county and your country but it did cost you it did cost you financially and time wise as well but I you know I just think I'm very blessed and I've had the best time in my life really you know that you know God gives you a talent and you use it to the best of your ability and that's all I've done. Great to have you on thank you so much Jane Powell president of Yorkshire

County Cricket Club who captained England and played for Yorkshire for 12 years as well. Exciting news on the topic of cricket next Next Wednesday, Women's Hour will be coming live from the iconic Lord's Cricket Ground. It will coincide with a huge T20 match between England and New Zealand and we will be discussing all things women's cricket. I hope you join me for that. I want to go back

to another little bit of sports while we are at it. Who's this from? No, I don't have a name. When I was 10, I was in the egg and spoon race in an inter-school day and against the odds, I won, beating the standout girl

of my age from another school. But I didn't drop the egg. And being very unsporty, no one from my school was on the line and the other girl claimed the victory. Luckily, the officials

gave it to me. I was so proud. My next sporting achievement, doing a 5K run this year, 57 years later. Well done. Thank you for your stories on Sports Day as well as others.

Now, tomorrow, join me on Women's Hour. We will talk about healthy women that are illegally misusing a Zempik for weight loss. Plus, we'll also hear from the pianist and musicologist. That's Dr. Samantha Edgay. I've been listening to her documentary.

It is fascinating about the history, particularly of female composers. So we're going to talk about all that. Do join me here tomorrow at 10 a.m. And thank you for spending

some of your day today with Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. How would a world heavyweight boxing champion cope if they were left alone on a desert island? When you're preparing for a fight, a big part of it is isolation, this preparation to get ready for battle and to be victorious. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, presenter of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4

and I'm here to tell you about a very special castaway the world heavyweight boxing champion Anthony Joshua When you look at a lion and they're showing affection you think, oh, they're so amazing I'd love to give one of those a cuddle Then you put a gazelle in front of a lion and you see his pupils widen

I feel we all have that nature, right? When it's time to eat, I love to hunt. That's just in my nature. Anthony Joshua on Desert Island Discs. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.