Woman's Hour - Harriet Harman, Southall Black Sisters, Author Cathy Rentzenbrink, Medium friends

Episode Date: July 13, 2024

A record-breaking number of women MPs have been elected following Labour's win at the general election. It's also the first time in parliamentary history that the proportion of women elected is more than 40%. Harriet Harman, the now ex-Labour MP and former Mother of the House, gives her reaction.Three women who say they were the victims of a racial attack have had the charges of assault made against them by their assailant discontinued by the CPS. Selma Taha, the executive director for advocacy group Southall Black Sisters, and Danae Thomas, two of the women, join Anita Rani to talk about what impact the charges being dropped has had, and how they’re hoping this might impact further action against racist violence against women and girls.Cathy Rentzenbrink is known for her non-fiction books – but now she’s written a second fiction novel – Ordinary Time. It tells the story of Ann, a reluctant vicar’s wife, and her grappling with ideas of marriage, duty and temptation. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss.A recent article in the New York Times coined the phrase "medium friends" to describe “not our besties, but more than just acquaintances.” Anita talks to Dr Susan MacDougall, a social anthropologist at Oxford University, and to Shazia Mirza, a comedian and writer, about friendship levels.Women are turning to increasingly risky ways to get weight-loss drugs, like Ozempic and Wegovy, as online prescribers become more stringent about who they will give them to. Two young women tell Woman’s Hour’s Melanie Abbott about using drugs they buy on the black market, despite the potential dangers. Plus Professor Kamila Hawthorne from the Royal College of GPs talks to Nuala. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. Some choice cuts from the week just gone. In a moment, Harriet Harman on the record number of women MPs elected to Parliament. The women turning to risky ways of buying weight loss drugs as online pharmacies toughen up their rules. And when it comes to friendship ranking,

who would you describe as your medium friend? What indeed is a medium friend? Keep listening to find out. So, you know the drill. Grab a cup of what you fancy and settle in for the next hour. But first, a record-breaking 264 women have been elected MPs following Labour's win at the general election. And for the first time in parliamentary history, the proportion of women elected is more than 40%. As well as that, we've now got the first

female Chancellor, Rachel Reeves. Harriet Harman, the now ex-Labour MP and former Mother of the House, posted on X about creating a cross-party women's caucus in her role as the chair of the charity, the Fawcett Society. Nuala asked her about that tweet on Monday's programme, but first got her reaction to that record number of women MPs. I think it's amazing. 264 women across all parties, Labour, Tories, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, there's only Reform don't have women. And I think that is in itself a fantastic thing

that this is more women than ever before. But the key thing is what they're going to do to deliver for women in this country. And as you just said, Nuala, we've got a woman chancellor now, we've also got who said she's dedicated to equal pay and who's declared herself a feminist. We've got Yvette Cooper, who's obviously committed on the question of,

she's Home Secretary, a question of domestic violence and rape. We've got Bridget Philipson in education concerned about childcare. So the question is, can these 264 women in the House of Commons, who've actually all got a shared agenda on these issues, can they form themselves into a kind of

mighty and subversive group actually determined to help the government to deliver for women in this country? Because it's not just being there, it's what you do when you get there, and there will be high expectations on those women. So what would the priorities be as you see them at the moment? Well, I think I would say childcare, you know, for most working mothers, and it's mostly mothers who deal with the childcare issues. It's unaffordable, inaccessible. You know, women are just tearing their hair out about it. Inflexible. What happens during the school holidays? You know, it's long overdue for that to be delivered on. I think that in amongst all the priorities there are within the Home Office and within policing,

you know, there's all sorts of things like knife crime and antisocial behaviour. But domestic violence and violence against women are persistent problems and they they mustn't be lost sight of so i think the women in the cabinet are very committed but it's hard in government and you actually need vocal agitating support and i think if it's cross-party that's really important actually although labour have got a very big majority and most of the women are labour there's 160 women i think people appreciate it in the country when people leave their party issues behind and work together and find common cause.

And on these issues to do with women, I think they can do that. So hopefully before the summer recess, before the House rises for the summer, there will be this meeting of all the women MPs across party to decide how they take it forward. And I'll go to that in just a moment, but just on the childcare aspect, because we've debated this quite a lot in the campaign.

And some would say that the Conservatives really took a big step forward with 30 hours of childcare. Well, they did. That commitment was a big step forward. But the problem has been for many, it's not a reality because there are long waiting lists and there aren't enough providers. So I think that that just shows that everybody's committed to the theory of it. But actually, everybody knows that in practice, it's still very much a nightmare. And, you know, it's just one of those things where the rhetoric is further ahead than the reality. So I think that with 264 women MPs behind it, it can be made a reality. And there's always competition in government for resources, you know, masses of demands on the

education department for spending on resources. But actually, a sort of mighty regiment of women MPs will hopefully make childcare a priority. And that will make a huge sigh of relief for women in this country. But it is about getting the staff in those childcare deserts, as they've been called. I mean, does Labour have a specific proposal for that? You know, no doubt, Bridget Phillips and the Educational Secretary

will come out with her workforce plan. And undoubtedly, it's about improving the status and qualifications. You know, it used to be the case, everybody thought, oh, childcare, anybody can do it. You know, it's just kind of unskilled labour. It's not, it's really important childhood development. So she'll need a workforce plan. But really, for everything these women in the Cabinet are doing that affects women, they need cheerleaders out there who've got their backs, and who will be actually encouraging them and supporting them so

that when they come up against all the different priorities that their colleagues will have in cabinet, they will know that they've got 264 women across five parties, all who want this, and that will help them deliver. It's interesting, as you say it, and you made this announcement on X or Twitter, as some of us are still calling it. But there was pushback. Some saying there are already cross-body parties. Here's a response from Rosie Duffield, the MP, to your proposal, saying female MPs have and will continue to work together effectively.

We don't need outside bodies organising us to do that. We work around specific issues and legislation. Your response? I totally agree. I mean, it's not the Fawcett Society that will be running this. Fawcett's convening the meeting of women MPs just in order to get it going. Rosie's absolutely right. I mean, there are individual groups within parties, but this could be run by, chaired by the new chair of the Women in Equality Committee, whoever that is, or it could be chaired by the mother of the house, who's Diane Abbott. So really, it's just about kickstarting it and taking it forward. It's definitely not for Fawcett to be running it. No, it's the women MPs themselves. So, you know, Rosie's absolutely right on this. I'm just going to help book the room

and get it going. Okay, and that's very good to have that clarity I believe because there was a lot of pushback about the role of the Fawcett Society if they had one within that organisation. And I should also say Labour MP Rosie Duffield for those that may not be aware.

Still no female leader of the Labour Party. You have served, I should say, as interim leader back in 2015. But why do you think Labour hasn't produced a woman in the most powerful position when the Conservatives have had three? Well, I mean, you know, it's embarrassing and terrible that we haven't, bearing in mind Labour regards itself as the party of women and equality. By the way, I do want to just say how fantastic it's going to be having Angela Rayner as deputy prime minister. But as you say, Nuala, we haven't had a prime minister or even a leader of the Labour Party who's been a woman except on an interim basis. And the way that I've kind of sort of explained it, although there's no justification for it,

is that women in the Labour Party are often more subversive and challenging than women in their own party in the Tories, because we've got a critique which says that this is about the misallocation of power and the unequal distribution of power, you know, in the workplace, in the home and in politics. And somehow that feels more uncomfortable to men, whereas the Tory women tend to be more in the flow of doing things in the normal way rather than challenging all the power structures. That's a bit of a sort of intellectual kind of justification and probably might not have any basis to it. But really, there's no justification for it. But I'm just hoping we're not going to have any leadership elections for an extremely long time

because hopefully Keir will be in, you know, for a long time. I do want to ask you, there are rumours that you're set to be appointed the new chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Am I speaking to the next chair of the EHRC? That's just something that's been in the papers. You know, I have no idea.

They've got a chair at the moment, so I don't know what plans they've got. So that is literally just speculation. So you're not going to... I'm a former. You're not going to announce it here is what I think I'm hearing. Well, there's nothing to announce,

honestly, Dula. Okay. Wurzah would be an excellent place to announce it, but there's nothing to announce, honestly, Dula. I think Wurzah would be an excellent place to announce it, but there's nothing to announce. I agree with you on that. And listeners of course may be aware that the EHRC has been there's been so much debate about it as well

as the balance of transgender and women's rights. Is this something that you think would be one particularly challenging area for whoever becomes the next chair? I think that most people want there to be women's only, based on gender, safe spaces for women when they've suffered from domestic violence or rape.

There do need to be single-sex spaces, and that is guaranteed in the Equality Act. Most people want to protect trans women from discrimination as well. And when it comes to the balance between those two rights, I do think although the legislation is clear and does protect single sex spaces on the basis of biological gender, biological sex. I think guidance could be issued, new clear guidance, which makes it clear for people who are running prisons or refuges or rape crisis centres, so that nobody's in any doubt that that ability to have a women's only space is there. And I mean, I would look forward to a situation where the kind of toxicity is taken out of this argument and everybody feels that we are protecting women, especially those

who've been subjected to violence. And we're also protecting the rights of trans women as well. And I'm sure that we can do both. Just one line I read, you said Rachel Reeves has been ready to be Chancellor since she was about 14 years of age. I've known Rachel since she's a very young woman. Before she was even a teenager, she was beating all the men at chess. She is very clever. She's very dedicated. She's very serious. And she just wants to do good for the country with her ginormous brain and her good public service, good public spirited service. And I think she'll be great. Harriet Harman talking to Nuala there. Now, in September last year, Selma Taha, Danai Thomas

and Davinia Rigon were on the London Tube together when they say they were the victims of a racist attack. The assailant in question, another woman, is reported to have accepted a caution for racially aggravated assault after being arrested. A few months later, Selma, Danai and Davinia were told that they were being charged by the Crown Prosecution Service for common assault by beating. Their trial was supposed to start on Wednesday this week at Highbury Magistrates Court, but just beforehand, the CPS discontinued the charges, saying the trial was unlikely to lead to a conviction. I spoke to Selma, who is the CEO of Southall Black Sisters, a black and minority ethnic women's organisation, and also to Danai. I started by asking Selma about that night.

We went out, essentially, what was just, you know, we were going to a bingo. Three black women in our 40s and 50s went out for a couple of hours. On our way home, we took the Northern Line. And before we knew it, we were the victims of a disgusting verbal racist abuse, which we were called some really offensive names. We were called slaves. We were told that it's not her fault that we're lesser than her. And we were subjected to monkey chants. When we challenged that, when I challenged that, this then quickly escalated into a nasty violent attack where clumps of hair were pulled out of Danai and myself and I sustained two bites to my left arm which necessitated a tetanus and hepatitis shot as well as antibiotics. But the most shocking thing of all, sat next to our assailant, was an off-duty police officer who did absolutely nothing,

nothing at all to de-escalate the situation or protect us in any kind of way. He did step in finally when it became violent, but he did nothing. And then when we complained about that, we were then facing charges. So as well as the common assault that we all were charged with, Danai and Davinia were also offered and then charged with public order offences, one of them being a racially aggravated one. We have had a statement from the Metropolitan Police. They sent us this saying on the 29th of September 2023, an off-duty Met officer was present and intervened

during an altercation that began on a tube train. This altercation continued inside an underground station until the arrival of British Transport Police. The incident was investigated by them and not the Met. A complaint was made to the Met's Directorate of Professional Standards in relation to the off-duty officer. This was referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct, who are reviewing the case.

Danai, what were your first thoughts immediately afterwards? How did you feel? I felt vulnerable, scared, angry, and just a roller coaster of emotions. You're never surprised by racism, but then when someone says something racist to you, you're taken aback by it. Yeah.

And it just has caused us to live on high alert. How are you feeling today? How are you feeling talking about it? I'm still shocked. I'm still upset. I'm very angry. But I understand and recognise that we need to speak about this. We need to raise awareness about this because this is the lived experience of every black person in this country. Every day when we step out, we put a face on, right? We deal with microaggressions and sometimes open racism. And we have the opportunity to choose if we want to engage with it or not. But when that racism becomes, you know, violent, when somebody is invading your personal space, you no longer have that choice. It's not the first time I've experienced racism,

but it's the first time I've been physically attacked because of the one thing I can't do anything about, which is the colour of my skin. How did it impact you when you learnt that the assailant had made a counter-allegation and that the three of you were charged with assault, Danai? Originally, I thought it was hilarious that we was getting called in for an interview. And even when we were interviewed and the police sort of said, oh, this is what we're going to charge you with, I didn't think the CPS was going to authorise it. And when I realised that they'd authorised it, I was dumbfounded.

Just taken aback by that because I really didn't think it was gonna go that far and so there are we are in that situation where we were the victims of a racial verbal abuse and physical assault and now we are the aggressors and language that's been used to describe us, loud, aggressive, intimidating. Those are the tropes that, as black women, we navigate on a daily basis. So not only have we been physically and verbally abused, we've been abused by the system that we're supposed to have faith in. And the system that we pay for.

We pay our taxes, we pay the salaries of these police officers, those that work within the criminal justice system. But we were not seen as deserving victims, which is, we know this happens every day through the work that Southall Black Sisters does, which is advocating for the rights of black minoritized and migrant women, some of whom are the most vulnerable in our society, namely migrant women that have no recourse to public funds, who are victims of domestic violence and other forms of male violence or gender-based violence. And the core work that we do is advocating, being their voice for them, challenging those very same institutions, right, that are there to serve and protect. I'm going to read out the statement from the British Transport Police,

and this is what they said. There is no place for violence or hate speech on the Royal Network. Detectives carried out a thorough investigation this incident to establish the full circumstances. This includes extensive reviews of CCTV, body-worn videos and witness testimonies to provide independent accounts of the incident. A file is then sent to CPS to make decisions on whether it meets the threshold of a charge. And I'll read out the Crown Prosecution Service what they said. We have a duty to keep all cases under continuous review and following information received in the past few days. We decided that there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction and these charges were discontinued.

Selma, you were supposed to be in court today. We were supposed to be, exactly. It was going to be a three-day trial. A three-day trial. So how were you preparing for that? How do you prepare for something like that? I know I haven't slept in months. I know the night before the first day of the trial,

I was awake at five o'clock in the morning when I was supposed to be getting up a couple of hours later to make my way down. How do you prepare for... for again on a daily basis we we encourage well it's your job exactly you are the ceo of south old black sisters right you know one of the most established women's groups in this country who've advocated as you've said for women of color for decades and And here you are. We provide, you know, advocacy and support services. We raise awareness. But when it happens to us, it's no longer anecdotal.

What do you do other than continue to challenge? And it is because we challenged, because I first challenged our attacker and then tried to hold the off-duty police officer accountable by challenging him on why he didn't do anything. This has now been turned around on us, and we are now the aggressors. For 10 months, by the way, this has been hanging over us.

What kind of support did you get from family and friends through the 10 months? A mixture. Obviously, everyone was very supportive. But then this isn't, I mean, for our immediate family and friends and from those within the black community, this is what they know happens. So, you know, that some will be deflated and do not want to engage. And the responses you get will be, well, what do you expect? We know this happens. We are nothing. Yeah.

We are not valued. There is a two-tier policing system. But the two of you, why don't you tell us the sector that you work in? I am an ISVA and I am a BAM ISVA and I support male survivors of historic and current sexual assault and rape. So you know a bit about the system and so you have a bit of agency and power. But what if I didn't? Exactly.

When you think of the young black girl, when you think of the homeless woman, when you think of the migrant woman, the woman that has no recourse to public funds, where English is their second language, they are not fully aware of their rights. And usually when they do report, and what they hear when women do go and report, what the police focuses on is, for example, their immigration status, rather than the crime that's taken place.

We've talked a lot about women's generally faith in the police, but we know that trust in police is very low at the moment, particularly among women and even more so among women of colour, black women. So in your statement in front of court on Wednesday, you said this experience had reaffirmed your lack of faith in the police. What did they need to do to restore that faith? Well, on a personal level and relating to our case, I would say that first and foremost, we're owed an apology, right? We're owed an apology for the discriminatory treatment that we received at the hands of the Met Police, the British Transport Police and the criminal justice system. And we will be exploring, legal remedies are open to us through the civil courts with our legal team.

You've got to understand as well, these months, depending on the outcome of the case, that's going to affect our careers. And the sector isn't something that you go into lightly. It's because you are passionate about advocacy. I met Selma in victim support as a manager and because of her I'm in this sector and I'm very passionate about this sector and to study to be in IDVA and be in ISVA and for it to just be taken away by someone's disregard of our experiences that impacts our lives our mental health physically mentally what would your message be to other black women and girls who might have gone through this who

are worried but who don't have the sort of platform that you do i think i would start off by urging the met police first of all accept the findings of of the most recent Casey report by Dame Louisa Casey, which also highlights the institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia, which was also highlighted 30 odd years ago in the McPherson report. That will show a willingness to the black communities, as well as with the apology to us, that they are listening, that they are trying to learn and that they're actually implementing those recommendations. We know, you know, some of them have been implemented, such as trainings. But how much training do they need? And what has this done for the two of you personally? You have to, as your jobs, stand there and represent for other people.

And now it's happened to you. And I can see, even talking to you, that this is very raw and it's hard to talk about. So how do you find the strength? What's it done to you? When you are supporting a service user and you're trying to convince them to have faith in the system, the same system that is trying to ruin you, that's quite... It's difficult to navigate. Having support from friends and family,

but also where we work is very important to kind of understand that. And we were lucky enough. But I think it's important that we continue to report. Yes. Because by doing so, we raise awareness where there are failings. Just very quickly, where do you find your strength to keep going? We've got no choice. We take it day by day.

Yeah. Day by day yeah day by day and and recognize when there's this there's a stroke with the strong black woman which can be quite dangerous at times because being strong exhausting well i'm not strong i'm just a woman trying to survive every day i you know just try to navigate the racist system that we live within. Racial fatigue. It's absolutely racial fatigue, but we just have to keep going. I know it's my anger that's driving me at the minute. So, you know, on Wednesday, the first day of the trial, just before we entered, we had the common assault charge dropped.

I know it was a good day. I know we no longer have this hanging over us. But I can't, I can't, you know, live with the fact that I'm supposed to be grateful for that. What am I supposed to be grateful for? I was a victim of a violent attack. And then you charged me. So now I need, I've got no justice, we have had no justice, and we need that to move on. We need justice and we need people to be held accountable. Selma Taha and Danai Thomas talking to me there, and you can contact us about anything you hear on the programme

at BBC Woman's Hour on social media or via the Woman's Hour website. Now, Cathy Renssenbrink is the author of the Sunday Times bestseller The Last Act of Love, a painful, beautiful and uplifting memoir about the life and death of her brother Matty. Now Cathy has written a new novel, Ordinary Time. It's a window into the life of Anne, a reluctant vicar's wife grappling with ideas of marriage and duty, as well as the more mundane parts of parish life, like washing the altar cloths.

I've always been really fascinated by vicar's wives. My aunt was a vicar's wife. I used to go and stay with her when I was a girl, and I was always very interested in the way that my uncle had to be everything to everyone in the church and then later on in the house he would be a bit tired, a little bit grumpy. So I think even from a really young age I was interested in that notion of being on stage and off stage. Kind of street angel, house devil?

That kind of thing I think, what people have to be like in a public world and then how they retreat into a private space. And they lived in this place called Cemetery Lodge it was beautiful it was freezing cold there were mice she wasn't allowed to kind of complain any about anything I think well she felt that she shouldn't complain about anything she didn't want to complain about anything and so I think everything I saw then at a young age just lodged this interest in me and it's carried on. It's so interesting. So this is a young girl that is watching this life play out in a vicarage, but really with Anne the protagonist. And I don't know how much of your aunt is in Anne or not, but many have said this. I'm not just the only one that you have really illustrated a lot about the inner life of a middle aged woman.

I hope so. And I think that I think this is the church setting ramps it up a bit. And there's a sort of a very specific nature of being married to someone who has a vocation. But actually, I think I think a lot of the territory is familiar for a lot of women who made choices. Certainly Anne really wanted to have a child. She'd had lots of fairly disastrous relationships. She meets the vicar, he's nice, he's kind, she thinks this is going to be it. Fast forward, you know, 12 years and she's really wondering almost like what she's done, kind of why, why, why, how did I end up here? And what am I going to do about it?

And then very much caught in this thing of, he's not bad enough to leave, is he? This isn't a bad enough situation to try to get out of. And I know lots of people who feel like that. The good enough marriage? The good enough marriage. Or is it the not so bad marriage? Well, you know, we shouldn't, wanting anything else anyway,

it's just being too affected by romantic comedies. You know, life's not a novel. It's, you know, everything's hard. I should just put up with it, that kind of thing. But I was fascinated with that, put up with it, the responsibility, the duty, because Anne in the book feels it's her duty or responsibility to stay with her husband, the vicar, whose name is Tim, even if she doesn't want to. And there are other examples of women who put their duty to their partners or their children before their own happiness. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think people feel like that, don't they? I'm not making any comment on whether or not people should feel like that. No, it's more exploring it.

They do. And I find it really interesting. I find it really interesting. And I mean, some men do as well. But I think I just love, I love knowing people's secrets. I really like it when people talk to me about their lives. And I love it when people talk to me about their inner lives. It is that thing, isn't it? Everybody behaving in a particular way when they're being observed. But what do they really feel? What are the secrets of their hearts and

i've over like eavesdropping people i've eavesdropped on a lot of women talking to each other about their marriages in cafes i'm also guilty it's just fascinating isn't it it's what i really want it's so often the conversation follows the same sort of tone so they they're basically kind of like get into what he's done that's so annoying and then at the end they'll say anyway could be worse and they're kind of like coming back to this situation like well a lot of people will be in a lot worse situation than me and I should feel grateful for what I've got and he's not awful and he doesn't hit me or doesn't you know shout at me so maybe this is you know so it's that kind of almost like that subtle heartbreak, lives of quiet desperation. Subtle heartbreak. What a term, Cathy. But it's about the why people stay, I think, as well, that fascinates you and that you're exploring in a way.

You have said, looking back, that this book is also about loneliness and loneliness within a marriage, which is meant to be one of the closest connections, I suppose, that many people have in their lives. Yeah, I think so. And in that way that I think writers quite often don't know what they're doing while they're doing it. It was only a few days ago that I realised, oh, I've written this whole book and I've now seen, I've now realised. Gosh, I felt it from page one. Yeah, I know. I don't know why I didn't know it was my subject, but I've only just realised

that really it's a book about loneliness and it's a book about a woman who, for various reasons, has always felt lonely, has always felt a bit of a drift, and who thought she would fix that. She thought that she would fix her loneliness by finding a partner, by having a family. But actually, she kind of hasn't really and then and I do think there's something about I think the loneliness of being in a not very good marriage is considerable there's something about when you've got something that other people want like lots of people might want that or might think that's good but then from within it as well people can never really say that if you are putting up with it I think people never really feel that they can then say that's what they're doing. So that can make people feel a bit sort of insincere as well or inauthentic. So I think it's a very lonely place to be. And of course, you can't, especially if you're kind of slightly putting up with someone for the sake of the children as well. You then can't be honest about that to those children. So those relationships that are very important also, I think, can have this sort of inauthentic tinge to them so the loneliness actually increases. You know what I was struck by though there is

a character her brother Stephen which there is such warmth between them and I mentioned of course your book that you talked about caring for your brother who sadly died and I'm sorry for your loss on that but I was thinking about it reading it that that relationship between siblings is not always given the same importance or significance within society as that with a partner. Yeah I think again as a society we are obsessed by romantic partnership aren't we and we're completely obsessed with it, even though now half of people get divorced, even though the world is full of evidence that actually it's a very difficult thing to do, to live intimately and exclusively with one person.

But we're utterly obsessed with that, and then people think they're a failure if they can't do it. Whereas often, what you might have is you might have very rich relationships with other people. And of course, I am interested in sibling bonds because I adored my brother and then I don't have him anymore. So it was a there was probably a fairly chunky bit of wish fulfillment in writing this beautiful, this beautiful sibling relationship for my for my heroine, which again, that that I'm fascinated with that as well. I love it when people talk to me about their close relationships with their, you know, when adults talk to you about their close relationships with their siblings.

I'm basically really interested in everybody's relationships, I think. And what we do, you know, I think a lot of people, I mean, I think I run with a very high degree of like existential aching loneliness. And then I try to fix that in ways that are sometimes good and sometimes not so good. Tell me a little bit more about that. I just think it's a sort of a default way of being in a way that is sort of an anxiety that I must do something to change the way that I feel, which is just often a bit lonely and sad if there aren't other people around. Of course, it's what reading does. I think, you know, I've always been a huge bookworm. And I think a lot of that is because reading is a way of not being lonely while you are alone.

Another way is listening to the radio, not being lonely while alone. Kathy Retzenbrink talking to Nuala there. Now, is there a topic or issue that you'd really like to hear on Woman's Hour or something you just want to get off your chest? This is your chance to make it happen because we've got Listener Week coming up next month. So if you're a new listener, this is an entire week where all the items are chosen by you. We're putting you at the centre of the programme. Let us know what you'd like to hear.

You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through the website we cannot wait to receive your ideas and remember that you can enjoy woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m during the week all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via bbc sounds now we've spoken a number of times about new weight loss drugs like a zempic or wigovi and some of the issues they throw up. Woman's Hour has discovered women are turning to increasingly risky ways to procure them as online prescribers get more stringent about who can have the drug. The Royal College of GPs is warning about the dangers of buying from unrecognised sources.

There's a long list of possible side effects ranging from nausea to kidney damage. Young women have been telling us it's easy to get if you know where to go. Harriet, that's not her real name, started taking a Zempik after buying it from an online pharmacy, but then found other ways of sourcing it. She's now taking Wagovi, a very similar drug. Our reporter Melanie Abbott spoke to her about taking the weight loss drugs. In the beginning, you just fill out a form and tick the boxes to say that you're in the obese category and then they would send it to you and then it ramped up to they would need a photo of you and then it would be a photo with you holding your ID and then a photo of you holding a picture of today's date on. They also wanted to have video calls but I found it was

easier to find new sources. And were you actually getting turned down for it when you were trying to get it online? Yes I made one photo of myself I think I was a size 14-16 but then I edited it to what I thought was to look like I was 17 stone. They rejected it because I hadn't edited it to look big enough they said that there's no way you're 17 stone. And then they also wanted a phone conversation with me. And it just felt a lot more deceptive talking to them on the phone, lying to this person who you also know they could get in trouble if they were to prescribe you this. So I found different ways. How are you getting it now? I just got a number off a friend. I text him and he does rounds a bit like a milkman,

like he comes round on a Wednesday. And he just drops it off. You have to meet him at a certain spot and he has a little fridge in his car. You just get in his car. How does it feel getting it that way? It feels naughty. It's also like, I don't know anything about this man.

It could be anything he's given to me. I do believe because of the fact my friends have been taking it before me and then the fact it looks so legitimate and he doesn't come across like your usual dealer who doesn't sell other things what did he say when he first met you when he was bringing you your first dose when i got in his car he sort of said oh is this is this for you it's obviously i was like a size maybe eight because i'd already been on it for a while and he said oh you don't look like my usual clients when you

you shouldn't be on this but then i told him the reason I look like this is because I'm on this yeah and then since I've recommended a few friends to him and he says he's seeing that more people like me are coming to to him do you have any idea what his source is where he gets it I haven't asked him I don't want to pry he just sort of I don't know he just says he gets it and then we sort of leave it there. We don't ask each other questions. And how much does it cost you? £295 for 2.4ml. You have like eight or nine weeks from that. So then it works out at about £150 a month or something.

But does it cross your mind that really he could be putting anything in this Wigvi looking box yeah obviously there's you can think that but there's there's a certain type of pen the pen that it comes in it's fully sealed it's exact same box as i used to get from the legitimate pharmacies were you overweight seriously when you started taking it yes uh my biggest i was 14 stone maybe size 14 16 I want to and I feel happier at size eight. And I'm sort of maintaining that there's no way I'm wanting to go lower. There was a time when I was doing 2.4 mil that I think maybe you could go lower if you really concentrated on it. But I don't want to I feel a lot like comfortable. Now. It is a real pressure that if you are thinner, people give you more leeway at work.

People are nicer to you. Do you really think that? I think definitely. I think it's even your family and your parents. Like my dad is a lot prouder of me when I'm thinner. Really? Yeah, definitely. He would like tell me to come and meet his friends.

But I don't know if he's seen my daughter. And you don't think he does that so much if you're a size 16? No, definitely not. I feel a pressure. But there can be serious side effects. It can affect your pancreas, can affect your kidneys. my daughter and you don't think he does that so much if you're a size 16 no definitely not i feel a pressure but there can be serious side effects it can affect your pancreas can affect your kidneys i sort of weighed it up with you've got to weigh up the risks because i find something else that haven't as emphatic has stopped me doing is sort of broken this food addiction he's had this addiction to processed food like you satiating, you're always eating more and more of it.

That's been shown to be incredibly damaging to your health. Have you had disordered eating in the past? Since I was probably like 15 or something, I've always had bulimia. And then I went to university, I severely abuse laxatives. And then since being on a Zempik, I haven't had any of those wants or needs and

have you thought about how long you will take it for now I'm sort of at the weight I want to be and I'm reducing it down I've gone from 2.4 to now I'm on 1.2 and then I'm going to try and wean myself down a lot of my friends have gone down to 0.25 but I'm doing it slowly because I once stopped it abruptly and then I put on half a stone within like two weeks. Harriet talking to Melanie. Now Woman's Hour has also found other women buying the raw ingredients of these drugs, semaglutide, mixing it themselves and injecting it. Melanie spoke to a woman we're calling Emily, whose words are voiced by an actor. She says buying it online was too expensive.

I think the first time you're a bit nervous because you don't actually know what you're essentially injecting. I started off with like maybe half of what was recommended to see if I had any weird reaction. I didn't have any nausea. I didn't have any stomach cramps, constipation, diarrhea, nothing. I've been on it now for seven or eight months and I've lost four kilos. So it's not like extreme rapid weight loss. It's probably even actually slower than like most safe diets, like two pounds a week. How much did you weigh when you started? Like 59 kilos.

That's not exactly heavy. It's not heavy. I never said I was heavy. In fact, like before I even started this, a lot of people would say how slim I was. It was just I hated the little bit that I could grab on my stomach. And now I'm actually really happy with my body, which I've never been able to say in my life. It is really, really risky, though, what you're doing. I mean, the next batch you get could be the wrong batch, could be anything. It could. And you're completely right.

And I think that is, I guess, just one of the risks that I'm willing to take. I think as well, you know, that there's a lot of bad stuff that people put in their bodies anyway, that's not regulated, not tested. I've looked into the health problems that can be associated with it, which is like inflammation of the pancreas, thyroid issues. I think if I can get my doctor to keep on top of that, I can just sort of say, can we get this checked out? I'm having some symptoms, even if I maybe wasn't just to get it checked, because I don't know how comfortable I would feel explaining that I'm actually on this sort of homemade medicine. You wouldn't want your GP to know what you're doing? Absolutely not. No.

Oh yeah, I know. You probably think I'm crazy. Why not? Because I know what they'll say. They'll just say, you know, it's very dangerous. It's the same reason why, to be honest, I haven't told my friends and family because of the judgment. Is the risk really worth it, though, just to get the perfect body when, as you say, people told you you were slim before? Yeah, but you know, I was never actually happy with myself before. Whereas now I can actually say that I am happy with myself. What do you think your family would say if they knew what you were doing? They would probably be not very happy about it. Probably be quite worried about me, I would imagine.

Because if you think about somebody who didn't need to lose any weight, that they're taking like this dangerous and regulated peptide, probably not going to be very happy about it, are they? How long do you think you'll keep taking it for? So this is the thing. You know, as soon as you stop taking it, all your cravings come back. And then I would essentially just go back to where I began. I'd probably say that I would need to stay on it to be able to maintain my results, which again costs money, again, could be unsafe. So I do understand what I'm doing. You know, it might not be the best thing for my health, but it's my decision. You could imagine taking it for the rest of your life.

Yeah, I could. You know, other people are on medication for the rest of their lives. But that's normally for a health condition, not because they want to be slimmer. Yeah, but also a lot of those medications can have really bad side effects, negative impact on them long term. But if you have to take it for a health condition, it is quite different from what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's different. Melanie talking to Emily there, not her real name. Well, Nuala spoke to Professor Camilla Hawthorne, the chair of the Royal College of GPs. I feel so sad that people are doing this, especially if their weight is within the normal range. You know, so they're not really taking it for health reasons at all. They're taking it without clinical supervision and in an unlicensed way. And that does carry inherent

dangers, even though the two cases we've just heard are asserting very loudly that they're fine. I mean, what would you say to them if you could speak to them directly? I think I'd say you really need to be extremely careful, especially the one who's injecting herself with, you know, sort of ready-made ingredients that she puts together and injects. I think the risks of developing abscesses for a start are really quite high. Leave aside the side effects of whatever it is she's injecting into herself. I don't think any GP would condone what those two ladies were doing, really, because, you know, we are trained to give prescription medicines for health related problems. And what they're doing is they're taking prescription

medicines, but they're taking it without a prescription in an unlicensed way. That is a kind of Wild West really out there. And although they're all right, I don't know how many others will not be all right if they take it. We are hearing actually very, very early report just recently been published of a higher risk of eye conditions with semaglutide. Eye? Yes, eye. And this is just a very new, it's only just been reported. It's preliminary, a lot more research is needed. But you just have to bear in mind that these are relatively new drugs, and we don't still know how it's all going to pan out, particularly if you end up needing to take it for most of your life because you're afraid

that you'll then gain weight when you stop taking it and there's good evidence that when you stop taking it the weight comes back on again. Well as we heard I think one of our guests said she will take it for the rest of her life. How do GPs I suppose open that conversation or being able to project that their surgery is a place for people to come that are thinking about this because I think they felt from what I heard

that they weren't going to walk through the GP's door and say look I have an issue with the way my body is even if I'm not obese I really want this drug. If you're not going to prescribe it for me, I'm going to get it whatever way that I want to.

I mean, I think that's the reality of what you're dealing with now. Yes. Now, you know, weight is a real problem, not just in the UK, but right across Europe, although I think UK is worse than the rest of the Western European countries, one in six of us are classed as obese. And the UK, as I say, is the worst. So a lot of my conversations are with people who are very overweight or obese, to try to persuade them to lose weight for health reasons. And yes, of course, we also have the opposite, talking to people who think that they need to lose weight when in fact, they are completely normal from a health point of view,

obviously not in their own minds. But those conversations are fewer, I quite agree. I think, you know, as your family doctor, probably your GP is the one person that you can confide in. Everything you say is confidential, unless it's illegal or criminal. But otherwise, everything is confidential. And if you feel anxious about your body shape or size, please come and talk to us. Before I let you go, a couple of things, really, I don't have a response, obviously, from any of the weight loss drug companies about the eye side effects that you were mentioning. But it has been reported that some pharmaceutical companies are working on developing more generic forms of these drugs, which would make them much cheaper. I'm wondering, that throws up a whole load of other issues. Would you welcome that?

So we've got a real problem at the moment with this class of drugs in that they because there's such demand for them they're not really available for the people who need them use them for type 2 diabetes of which we have you know a real preponderance in this country and also um under the name wigovy so zempic is for diabetes wigovy is for weight loss but it is of both of them are semaglutide which is the generic name for them. And at the moment, we have weight loss clinics, NHS weight loss clinics that are closing their waiting list because they can't get hold of Wigovi. And we as GPs are being asked not to prescribe it because that's not enough for the people who really need it. So I think it's, you know, shortages of drugs

are really serious. And the European Medical Agency is really worried and is calling this a major public health concern that's unlikely to be resolved in 2024. So it's going to take some months before these companies actually start producing enough of it so that the patients who need it can have it. Professor Camilla Hawthorne, Chair of the Royal College of GPs, speaking to Nuala there. And if you've been affected by anything that you've heard, or you've got concerns about

disordered eating, you can find help and support on the Woman's Hour website. Now, if our next story was an episode from a certain US sitcom, it would be called The One with the Medium Friend. What is a medium friend, I hear you ask? Well, a recent article in the New York Times described them as not our besties, but more than just acquaintances. You may share a history with them because you work together,

or they may have you laughing your head off every time you meet, but for some reason, you hold them at arm's length. What does it say about us that we put people in such categories? And how have you felt when the person

you regarded as your bestie sees your friendship as just middling? Well I spoke to comedian and writer Shazia Mirza and social anthropologist at Oxford University Dr Susan McDougall and asked her what she thinks of the term medium friends. I get quite a kick out of it. To me, it really, I think if we think about friendship historically, the medium friend is probably quite common, right? We would have looked to our friends to be an important part of our social network, one of the ways we build community, and we would kind of expect friendships to kind of grow closer and less close throughout the life course. So I think our interest in kind of medium friends as maybe a problem indicates a bit about how time poor we are, right, how we've become very sort of sensitive to our time resource. And so and also maybe geographically dispersed, there's a lot of

people who are in this friend category, but aren't around to be kind of providing material support in the way that we would, you know, kind of historically think of friends serving us. So maybe there's kind of a new problem around what do we do with this sort of medium category? Yeah, that says to me, there's a lot changing. Yeah, fascinating stuff. Now, Shazia, as a high profile comedian, you've probably got tons of mates. Well, as you know, Anita, I'm very popular. I have a lot of friends. I've got 3000 on Facebook. I've got 147,000 on Instagram. And I get new requests every day. I have to turn people away and say, I'm sorry, I'm full. But a lot of these people I do talk to more than my family. They're always messaging me. So I could actually call them my friends. But as you know, medium friends.

What do you think about that? I actually call them my friends. But as a, you know, medium friends are... Yeah, what do you think about that? I mean, they are friends who I maybe see once every three months and that's great because I can really only take them in small doses. Right, you don't have to name anybody but give us properly. Yeah, well, Brenda, my friend Brenda, I mean, she's great every three months. But the thing is, I mean, I don't talk to them about everything. You know, it's kind of lighthearted, is, I mean, I don't talk to them about everything. You know,

it's kind of lighthearted, pizza, you know, shopping, celebrities, you know. My closest friends who I've only got, say, three or four of, I mean, I speak to them about everything, you know, life, death, parents, piles, everything. You know, they are the closest ones. They have that privilege. But the thing is, I mean, you know, you do have to have medium friends because you don't want heavy conversation all the time. You don't want deep all the time. You do need life light and fluffy. And I think medium friends are really good for that. Susan, I understand that you're often seen as a medium friend because you're an expat I really think that what we what is amazing about friendship right is that you don't have to pick you don't have to have I mean I think we have the kind of example of romantic monogamous relationships where you kind of have to pick one person and be with them for your whole life and like make this massive investment and in friendship you don't have to choose this is one of the things that kind of defines it

you don't have a medium husband and you don't have a medium cousin but you can have a medium friend which is great and I really appreciate my medium friends I love to kind of revisit these different times in my life when I've been close with different people it's really beautiful how do they serve as medium friends because you're right we are time poor and we haven't got enough and we all have busy lives and we spend so much time talking to these really good friends that we've made online that we're never going to meet in our lives so when have we possibly got time for IRL friends so what is the benefit and how do they serve us I'm quite interested in the sort of interaction between the transactional element of friendship well so I think what we see in a lot of public health research is that loneliness is very bad for you. It really makes you ill. There's a kind of oft cited statistic from Julianne Holt-Munstadt's research that being lonely is

as bad for you as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, right? This is a very, like, it's a lethal thing to not have friends. And your medium friends, you know, it's wonderful to have a kind of soul sister or soul brother. And I mean, these are conceptualized differently in different genders. I've used the word soul sister before, right? You know, someone that you're really deeply connected to, that's amazing. But just to have a kind of crew that, you know, invite you to barbecues or can go sit by the pool with you on a nice afternoon, it really fills your life with kind of fun, lightness, joy. Like Shanti was saying, you don't have to be kind of seeing this person every day to enjoy their presence in your life. They also create community, right? If you have one

medium friend, one-on-one, that's one thing. But to have a circle of 10 or 15 medium friends means you can have quite a good housewarming, right? It's a vibrancy that comes from a network of medium friends. I like this, Susan. I'm nodding along with this. It's making a lot of sense to me. Have you ever thought that you were more than a medium? You thought you were closer and then you realised actually you were just a medium friend? Yeah, I did. I found out, you know, when one of my friends traded me in for a better offer and I saw her having a good time on Instagram and I was thinking, now I know why you traded me. And she cancelled at the last minute because she got a better offer. So I think I'm a medium friend to a lot of people.

What do you think about people who say their mums are their closest friends? This is just disgraceful. I mean, how can you be best friends with your mum? Your mum is your mum. She lays down the law. You cannot go clubbing with your mother. This needs to be stopped immediately. She loves you. She loves you. Susan, what do we think about friendship hierarchy? Just generally that we talk about people as being best friends. You know, I think I always think about the Elena Ferranti novels, right? But it's like, there's this kind of sense that a best friend is better than a medium friend. And if you look at

that particular story, it really shows how like a lifelong, super deep friendship is not necessarily preferable. This can be like a deeply painful experience to be in a best friendship as well. Shazia, as someone as popular as you, right, when people meet you and then you kind of go, oh, yeah, here's my number.

Yes. And they're like, great, Shazia's my best mate. How do you manage the expectations of your meetings? I'm always a letdown, as comedians are. You know, we're never as funny in real life as we are on stage. And people go, oh, she was such a disappointment. I thought she'd be funnier. I've heard people say that about me.

But, you know, the public perception is different to how you are in real life. And, you know, a friendship is really special. I can't be entertaining to you 24 hours a day. I'm so sorry. I don't have the energy. Shazia Mirza and Dr. Susan McDougall. That's it from Weekend Woman's Hour. On Monday, a unique insight into Britain's criminal courts. Nuala will be joined by Her Honour Wendy Joseph Casey, who at one point was the only woman amongst 16 judges at the Old Bailey. And we'll also be hearing about Kat Torres, a former Brazilian model

who built a wellness empire on half-truths and lies. She's now in jail for human trafficking and Nuala speaks to a BBC journalist who went to meet her. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend with your medium friends, your besties, or even people you don't like that much. Until the next time.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. For years, a witness's evidence has been locked away. I've seen the dark side. He warned a chemical is coming. It's a silent killer. And that he was a target. Forced into a chemical is coming. It's a silent killer. And that he was a target. Forced into a witness protection programme. We're Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor, two investigative journalists,

joined by the Hollywood star Michael Sheen. Do you think someone's going to try and kill us? From BBC Radio 4, an unsettling investigation into a chemical secret, unravels. They don't have any record of him. What? Listen now to Bury the Last Witness on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long

story. Settle in. Available now.