Woman's Hour - Having a baby in lockdown

Episode Date: May 25, 2020

We hear from you about what it’s like to be pregnant, give birth and look after a new baby in the Covid-19 lockdown.Antenatal, labour and post-natal care has had to transform in the last two months, in order to combat the virus. Pregnant women are considered a vulnerable group to Covid and are recommended to self-isolate for their third trimester. Routine face-to-face appointments have been reduced and more is being done by phone. The way you give birth may have had to change, and partners can no longer stay on labour wards beyond the birth itself. And of course for new parents, family and friends haven’t been able to visit in person. What has all this meant for you? As well as the challenges, have there been any unexpected upsides? Jane is joined by midwife Leah Hazard and obstetrician Dr Kenga Sivarajah to hear your stories.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Sarah Crawley Interviewed Guest: Leah Hazard Interviewed Guest: Dr Kenga Sivarajah Interviewed Guest: Ibukun Fisher Interviewed Guest: Elsa Rickett-Trueman Interviewed Guest: Laura le Masurier Interviewed Guest: Kate Duncan Interviewed Guest: Lizzie Williams Interviewed Guest: Frankie Eshun

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's Woman's Hour on Bank Holiday Monday, the 25th of May 2020. Good morning. A live edition of the programme for a Bank Holiday Monday. Hope you're feeling all right this morning. Pregnancy, birth and life with a newborn during the lockdown. That's the subject of Woman's Hour today. And you can take part, particularly if this is you right now or somebody in your family, somebody you care about,

at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter, or you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. We're on Instagram too, at BBC Woman's Hour. As you can imagine, so much from you already on Instagram, on Twitter and some fantastic emails and listeners' experiences. Expert advice too. My guests are the obstetrician Kenga Sivarajah, who's from King's College Hospital in London. She is a specialist in

perinatal mental health. And the midwife Leah Hazard is based at a hospital in Glasgow. She's written a really good book about being a midwife. It's called Hard Pushed. If you'd like to seek that out, I can recommend it. Kenga, first of all, good morning to you. First of all, can you reassure anybody who's pregnant now that everything is going to be well handled and that they'll be in safe hands? Hi, good morning, Jane.

Yes, so I think the messages are coming through from the UK obstetric surveillance study that there isn't any evidence that pregnant women are more likely to get COVID-19 than anyone else, and that most pregnant women who get COVID-19 will have mild to moderate symptoms. However, we do know the body can respond differently to viruses in pregnancy. And occasionally, pregnant women may suffer from more severe symptoms. And this may be the same for COVID-19. And for this reason, we would say, you know, we would follow the government advice that pregnant women, you know, practice stringent social distancing from 28 weeks. But for our part in maternity, we are trying as much as possible to continue antenatal and postnatal care.

Right. In the normal way or is it all online? So it's not all online. We have definitely adapted some of our antenatal and postnatal care to ensure that women can practice the stringent social distancing if they need to. But we have also we also want to have a clear message that if women have antenatal symptoms or postnatal symptoms that would usually require them to come into hospital, that they seek help. Firstly, by maternity helplines, seeking help from their midwife, their obstetrician, but to come into hospital if they need to and not to wait at home because they're worried about catching COVID-19 in hospital. What would you like to say to BAME women at this time?

We do have some data from the same study that, you know, over half of the pregnant women that were admitted to hospital with coronavirus were from a BAME background. And obviously, this does concern us. And from a health professional point of view, we would say that we should be aware of this increased risk and, you know, possibly have lower thresholds for reviewing and admitting them. But also to empower these women in particular, that if they do have severe symptoms or feel unwell, or their recovery is particularly prolonged, then please to contact one of the maternity team or to come in. Thank you very much. Much more from Kenga later. Kenga is in London. Our midwife Leah works in Glasgow. How are things at the hospital? Is it a particularly busy time, Leah? Well, that's really interesting. At the start of all this, we didn't quite know

what to expect. I don't think anybody did. And I have to say for the first couple of weeks of lockdown, our levels of women coming through the triage department where I work were greatly reduced. And it was a bit eerie because we were kind of expecting this big tsunami of sick women and it was very very quiet and we thought okay you know maybe this is just women using the service a bit more cautiously and hopefully women aren't staying at home when they should be presenting with issues but now I can definitely say that our workload is right up to normal levels of busyness, which is quite busy indeed. And we have seen some sick women in amongst those numbers, but I'm pleased to say

that we haven't been seeing them in the numbers that we were fearing. Right, but you have seen pregnant women with COVID? I have, yes. And how does it manifest itself in pregnant women? Is it just the same? Well, I think on the whole, yes, I think pregnant women? Is it just the same? Well, I think on the whole, yes, I think pregnant women should be aware of the same symptoms that the rest of us have been told to look out for. So most notably, that's cough, shortness of breath, fever, loss of taste or smell. And pregnant women, as Kinga has said, can experience those symptoms. And sometimes they can experience them in greater acuity than the general population might. So, yeah, I mean, you can feel a bit sort of tired and run down in pregnancy at the best of times anyway. And pregnant women who are unwell, you know, have have that in spades, I'm afraid.

We hope to get so much more from you both during the course of the programme. But for the time being, thank you very much. Let's talk then to two women who are in that now vulnerable group because they're pregnant. You are in the vulnerable group from 28 weeks. That's the third trimester of pregnancy. And as Kenga pointed out right at the start, you should self-isolate at this point as far as is possible. Elsa joins us from Nottinghamshire. Elsa, first of all, congratulations.

Your first baby is due in a couple of weeks, the 6th of June. How are you doing? Yeah, well, thank you very much. I'm doing all right. I'm just tired, mainly now. But other than that, I'm feeling pretty good. And when you first realised you were pregnant, of course,

this was, it must seem like a lifetime ago. Yeah, yeah. Long before lockdown. So you weren't expecting all this? No, no, it's gone. It's strange because the pregnancy feels like it's gone. It's gone really fast, but then we feel like we've been in this sort of pandemic situation for a little while now, which is, I guess, slowing it down a little bit. It feels strange strange what would you say about the antenatal care you've been able to have um so i'm still i'm still able to see my midwife face to face which is um which is really nice i'm really glad about that um it's just a bit different in terms of you know going to the surgery you wait

outside and only one person's allowed in at a time. You wait to be called. But we weren't able to do any antenatal classes. That's the ones we were planning on doing. But I was able to do one over Zoom, which was actually really good. And so do you feel you've made connections with other women in the same situation? A bit, because I think there's a lot online, you you know like Facebook groups and Instagram things that you can join it's not the same as meeting people face to face um but it does help to hear for other other women going through the same thing and the birth what plans had you made um what like you mean in terms of like a birth plan? Yes. We hadn't really thought about that too much before the virus, I don't think, other than just go to the hospital and hopefully be guided through it.

And what do you know about what will happen when the birth happens? Will your partner be able to be with you? At the moment, from what we've been told, yeah, he will be. We've just been told to ring the hospital when we get the signs of labour. And once I'm in active labour, that's when I'll go to hospital and he can stay with me then. Great. OK, well, thank you very much for that. Ibby is in Northampton. Ibby, you're 25 weeks pregnant. It's your second baby.

You already have a five-year-old and i know you've been doing homeschooling but you also have i'm going to get this right hyperemesis gravidarum hg which is that awful vomiting and sickness ailment what's it been like for you um so it actually started for me it was the reason that I actually found out I was pregnant, because I was really, really ill. And it's been really horrible because I found out I was, well, I started having the symptoms around six weeks of pregnancy, and it's carried on until now, until date. It is getting a lot better in terms of, I think,

the medication that I'm on now, it seems to be levelling it. Not levelling it out, but just helping me go by day-to-day things. Because before, I was almost, I couldn't get out of bed, I couldn't do anything. It was almost like I was just a zombie. I couldn't do anything. And with a five-year-old, it's a lot harder because she's like,

Mummy, you need to come and do this, Mummy. And especially now with homeschooling, it's been a lot more difficult. We're trying to get up early in the morning and try to get our school routine going without me being sick and me feeling sick. But I feel like I am getting there. I am getting there.

I can't wait for it to be over, which is not what pregnancy should feel like. But I think with the HGs, just kind of maybe wanting to be over which is not what pregnancy should feel like but i think with the hg it's just kind of mainly wanted to get over it quickly and what about the lockdown and the impact of that um i think for me um i was very um before i actually went into the hospital to this is a thing now with the hg i do have frequent trips to the hospital where i have to go and get fluids and um you know for rehydration and before that I was really really not happy to do it because I was really scared with all the coronavirus and

everything going on it took me about a month and a half before I like I actually passed out and then my partner forced me like okay at this point we're going to call the ambulance let's get and then I realized that always was I'd left it a little bit too late. I started having ketones in my urine, which is a bit dangerous. So I think in terms of that, the coronavirus affected my mindset because I just didn't want to go into the hospital and put myself more at risk. Were you yourself? You were a nurse. Yeah, and also I think being a nurse, I think it also kind of made me a little bit,

not sceptical, but a little bit scared more because I was, you know, in the group chat, because I work in the same hospital wherever, where I'm going to get my hydration and things like that. Right, OK. You almost know too much, you mean. I know too much, yeah. So I was knowing, like, the rate, people that were in with COVID-19 and things like that.

So I was a bit like, oh dear, do I want to go in today? Or do I not? I was trying to brave it. But eventually I didn't really have a choice because it really got to the point where I wasn't eating. And I was losing a lot of weight. So I lost about 10 kilograms in this whole pregnancy. And that's not a good thing. No, 10 kilograms when you're pregnant? Unbelievable. I lost a lot of weight. I'm so sorry, that does sound remarkably tough.

And as you're a woman of colour, what Kenga had to say about BAME women, does that also add an additional layer of concern? Yeah, I think it also adds anxiety to the mixture just because i'm more anxious because i know that oh you know it seems like a lot of our our community seems to be getting this covid-19 so i need to be a lot more safer and you know it's affecting sort of like my family life as well because because of that i've you know i'm keeping away from a lot of people

even my my husband he's a key worker as well so he's actually had to move out of our house for the time being um just because um you know he doesn't want to put me at risk no I understand that that is it's it's quite hard doing that so doing that as well as um homeschooling a five-year-old and doing everything for her it has been a kind of a juggle but I think you know it I feel like this COVID-19 has made it a lot harder for a lot of um it's made it just a bit more difficult just to do your normal day-to-day I think I think you're I think Ibi I think you're fantastically understating the whole thing to be honest with you I should have said congratulations to you as well it is a wonderful thing. It is a wonderful thing, it is.

Yeah, and we do wish you all the very best. Thank you for talking to us this morning. I mentioned that we'd had loads of emails on this and here's one listener who says, I just feel cheated of the normal pregnancy experience. Everybody tells you it's a special time, particularly your first pregnancy. Everything you read about is how special you feel

and how exciting it is. Well, I haven't felt that at all. I cycle through feeling really lucky I'm having a healthy pregnancy and that our jobs are OK. But sometimes I feel really angry that this has happened now and I'm spending my pregnancy locked up at home. My husband couldn't come to our 20 week scan and that was upsetting as I was nervous about it beforehand. Another listener who's pregnant with twins says hospital appointments have been stressful but the staff are brilliant, friendly and supportive and professional. I had my first scan at nine weeks, I thought it was 12

weeks, and to see two babies in there without my husband made me an emotional wreck. The sonographer was superb and really understanding, but it's definitely weird to break that news to your husband via WhatsApp. I was much calmer at my second scan this week, and the PPE doesn't put me off attending the hospital. I figure it's probably one of the cleanest places going. I certainly feel safer in there than I do in my local Tesco. That's no slight on Tesco, by the way, because I'm sure they're doing their very best. Thank you for that. Kenga, what would you say to those women who are just frankly

somewhat concerned about how alien the hospital environment is going to be for them and to them? I mean, I really kind of sympathise with how they're feeling and I understand that, you know, I feel we feel really bad that the hospital should be actually a safe place for them. And now it's become a place of concern. But, you know, I'd just like to stress again that we are we all have PPE. We're, you know, washing our hands, you know, on a regular basis. We're practising social distancing.

And we're really trying our best to make the hospital a safe environment for them to come. We're triaging women before they come to make sure that they don't have symptoms of COVID. And if they do have symptoms of COVID and they have a non-urgent appointment, then obviously we'll reschedule that. And anyone who does come in with symptoms of COVID is taken to a different area away from women without symptoms. Will every woman be allowed to have somebody with them? In labour? Yes.

Yes. So a partner, your mum, your sister, whoever it might be? Yes. I think the advice is that if your partner has symptoms, then you can choose another birth partner. But certainly at the moment, you know, we would say that you can have one birth partner with you. Leah, what about in Glasgow? Yeah absolutely I mean I think all hospitals and birth units in the UK are following the guidance from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which everyone can access online and those guidelines say that yes absolutely women should be allowed and encouraged to have one birth partner with them in labour and obviously as

Kenga has said if that designated partner is symptomatic, they'll be discouraged from coming. But of course, you can choose someone else who's healthy and well. Thank you. Tish on Twitter says, my grandson was born by emergency unplanned caesarean on Saturday. I will never be able to thank the NHS enough for the care and the safety of my daughter and her baby.

Of course, I haven't seen them other than online and it hurts not being hands-on to help. Well, Tish, congratulations to you and your daughter and welcome to the world to your grandson. Another listener says, I'm at home with a three year old and a three week old. Mixed feelings. Other half is furloughed and now on paternity leave. So it has been a wonderful extended family time time i'm less anxious now the baby is here the biggest fear was catching the virus before the birth a partner returns to work and three-year-old to nursery on monday and i will really miss the social support keep your experiences and your thoughts coming and if you have a question for either kenga or leah it's a good opportunity to get something off your chest now at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter.

Let's talk now to some women who have just recently given birth and our congratulations to them all. We're starting with Laura, who is with baby Arthur in Brighton. Laura, good morning. How are you today? Good morning, Jane. Very well. Thank you. This is your second child. It is. I have a six yearyear-old here as well with me. Right. OK. So take us through the birth then. What happened? So I was 37 weeks on my maternity leave,

which I had planned to relax and really enjoy myself. But all of a sudden, COVID-19 reared its ugly head and I was there homeschooling a six-year-old as well and I had planned to go to the hospital but with COVID in full swing I didn't feel comfortable going to hospital for a couple of reasons. The first is that we're down here in Brighton, the rest of our family are in Essex and my father is in the vulnerable category so it wasn't advisable for us to have my mum who I had planned to come down and you know look after Ned my my oldest whilst I was birthing we have a lot of very very kind neighbours but again they've got

young children they've got vulnerable people in their family. So we didn't want to put anybody at risk, which would have meant I would have to go to the hospital alone and birth. So I was more comfortable to do that at home. So at 37 weeks, made the decision to have a home birth. Right. Now, would you have considered yourself, I'm going to try and phrase this politely, the sort of woman who would ordinarily have gone for a home birth? And I'm looking at my producer who had two home births. She's pulling faces at me, but you go on. So I was femininely against home birth because my first was born, he was born prematurely.

There were complications and it was very, very difficult. So I had felt that being in a hospital was the safest place for when things do go wrong as they had done with my first birth and that that would be the place that I needed to be. I was not somebody that was you know enjoying things like hypnobirthing or open to them even and then at 37 weeks when I made this decision it was almost you know go back to your brownie days and be prepared because everything's changing thick and fast and I have to have a home birth now so I have to start thinking differently and changing my perspective and I did follow a home birth a hypnobirthing course and I have to say it really did open my eyes and change

my perspective enormously. We've got so many other callers to squeeze into the programme but in short you became the sort of woman you didn't know you were and for you using hypnobirthing and giving birth at home was the right thing and it worked well? It was it's the most positive experience my labour was four hours and I was at home with my husband was there. My son was there. He was in and out. So it was just very, very comfortable. The midwives and the NHS have done an incredible job of keeping us safe, keeping us calm and and helping us to feel really, really secure during the birth. Well, I'm delighted for you all. And thank you very much for talking to us, Laura. Really appreciate it. Let's go to Worcestershire and Kate. Hi, Kate. Good morning to you. Hi. This was your first baby, River. When was she born?

Six weeks ago. Right. And how are things now? Yeah, good. Yeah, she's good. She's good. How are you? I'm sounding like your health visitor. How are you feeling in yourself? I'm a little bit jealous of the last caller because my labor was certainly a lot longer than four hours. So, yeah, I'm super jealous. Well, no, but Laura acknowledged herself that she was extremely fortunate and we need to get some positivity out there. I know things were not as easy for you. So take me through it. So I was part of a trial called the big baby trial so they knew that um river was going to be big and she was going to be difficult to get out and i was being advised to have a c section which wasn't my preferred option actually to start with um but then i was about 37 weeks

then when the covid and lockdown and everything happened and it actually changed my opinion and roeddwn i am 37 wythnos yna pan ddododd Covid a'r lockdown a'r holl bethau a wnaeth hynny newid fy marn i ac fe ddychmygais, iawn, fe fyddwn ni'n cael hynny'n cael ei wneud, mynd i'r ddegau drwyddi ac yna rhai o brotocol, rhai o'r cymorth ar y sefydliad ac yn anffodus roedd y ffordd hwnnw, y gwahaniaeth a ddodod i ffwrdd i ffwrdd â mi a roedd hynny'n rhoi llawer o anghyswyr i mi ar y pryd gave me a lot of anxiety at the time um and then eventually I went into labour and it was very stop-start and four days and I was admitted um and then I had to have an induction and I was 11th hour into the induction and ended up having an emergency c-section right um and how how was that and how has life been since? So I think the difficult thing with that was that they weren't sure really about protocol. And it was midnight and the doctors were arguing about whether my husband could see the baby or not afterwards. And we eventually got 10 minutes together. And he left and I got whisked off to

postnatal ward for two days um and I wasn't really ready to go home but I just couldn't cope with the fact that he hadn't seen his newborn it was really upsetting so ended up getting out eventually um and I think one of the positives is that because my recovery has been really difficult, I've had six weeks where I haven't had to see anyone, haven't had to have anyone over to the house. And that's been so positive for us. It's really interesting you say that. We've had a variety of opinions on this very subject. Some wholeheartedly agree with you. Other people, frankly, and it's this visceral longing for their mother,

which is coming through from people who haven't been able to see their mother and really miss having that influence and that presence in their life. But there is another side to it. As you say, you actually have enjoyed the cocoon. Yeah, definitely. And I think my husband's been on furlough as well, which I think at first when that happened, know we were really stressed out I think the last thing you want to be doing is worrying about money when you're having a baby I'd lost my job

three weeks before the labour as well god I'm sorry so you know that would have normally been quite a stressful situation but I think with everything that's going on sort of it's almost like money's become the least of our worries in a way. Well, it puts absolutely everything into a wonderful perspective, doesn't it? And River's very quiet. Where is she? Husband has taken her out because she's generally not very quiet. Well, I should hope not. So she's gone for a walk down the lane. Has she? OK. And how's the feeding going?

Yeah, good. Yeah, good. She was big, so she was hungry. So it's just, yeah, pretty constant, but to be expected. OK, congratulations to you all. Thank you very much for coming on the programme this morning. Thanks. So Laura in Brighton, Kate in Worcestershire. We're going to go to London and Lizzie. And Lizzie, I don't want to paraphrase your story. It's a relatively complicated one. So I'll just say that you did end up giving birth alone in terms of no intimate partner or friend or mum with you. Just take me through that if you can,

Lizzie. Yeah, certainly. So I have a toddler at home and my husband and I had talked extensively about what we were going to do when it became clear that I would be having our second daughter under lockdown. And although we knew that during active labour, obviously, partners were permitted, what was quite clear was that those on whom we'd normally rely to look after our toddler, it just wasn't going to be feasible. So, you know, parents, etc. So we decided that the most straightforward thing to do would be for me to go in at the point that I was in active labour if it was circumstances where we could possibly call on a friend to come over for an hour or two to look after our daughter great but the option A was very much going to be

that my husband was going to stay at home with our toddlers. We were actually primarily concerned about her. As it turned out, my waters actually broke early and so that cemented the decision even more. And my labour didn't progress with sufficient pace, so I was admitted to hospital. And given, obviously, with an induction, you don't quite know when you're going to go into active labour. Again, it was just, it didn't seem particularly logical at the time

for my husband to be with me. And given that I had an uncomplicated history, then I just possibly thought I'd be in and out, basically. We should congratulate Baby Bebe on making her national radio debut. She is very, very young, but that was brilliant and indescribably cute. So the nation will have enjoyed that, I can assure you. Make sure someone gives this to her when she's 21. But we should say that you actually ended up,

well, it was pretty terrifying, actually, wasn't it? You gave birth, and then what happened? So I gave birth, and I should say that the staff, midwives, obstetricians were amazing throughout the delivery, to the extent they allowed me to FaceTime my husband and indeed my mother, godmothers of my daughters, to give me encouragement before I started going into stage two of labour, so the active pushing.

Called my husband straight after delivery, FaceTimed the site of his newborn daughter, and then things started to go a bit wrong. I didn't quite appreciate at the time, I think, how serious it was, but in short, I had an undiagnosed pulmonary embolism, so a blood clot in my lung and it had put pressure on my heart obviously during the pushing stage of delivery such that my heart had gone into distress and what became apparent afterwards is that I'd had

what they call a cardiac event so effectively a sort of mini heart attack during delivery. I think so much of what the women have already said on the programme has been so fantastically understated and calm. I just want to own and I want you to own the fact that you've been in labour on your own in hospital for a number any number of hours and then this happened and you contacted I think your best friend and your mum because you thought you were going to die. Yes so this was actually I should say I didn't want to worry my husband who has oh sorry I think this is just this is beeping. It's absolutely fine please don't worry about that. So I had actually I'd said to my husband everything was fine and you should go to bed because by this point it was midnight and he'd been looking after our daughter all day

and it got to about half past two in the morning it was quite clear they'd asked for my consent to roedd yn edrych ar ein gwbl-dau'r dydd. Ac fe wnaeth yna tua hanner i ddau o'r ysgrifennu, roedd yn eithaf glir, roeddent wedi gofyn am fy ngysylltiad i roi scan CAT neu scan CT yn yr un scan yr oeddent yn ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer ddylwodau Covid. Ond yn amlwg mae risgiau yn ymwneud â hynny, felly roedd angen fy ngysylltiad. Ac roedd yn eithaf glir o'r ffordd debygol y roedd yr obstetricwr yn ceisio ddatganoli i mi fodwn yn llwyddo yn effeithiol ac roedd angen i ni ddweud pam. Ac roedd yn y pryd nad oeddwn i'n gwybod beth i'w wneud. Acud ac rwy'n cofio, roedd yn ddiddorol beth roedd un o'ch gofynion yn ddiweddar am ddyni'ch mam. Roeddwn i eisiau clywed sôr fy mam. Felly, roeddwn i wedi ysgrifennu ar eich cyswllt i ofyn os oedd hi'n sylweddol. Roedd hi'n gwybod fy mod i mewn gwaith a dyma sut mae hi'n mynd yn ôl i fynd yn ôl i fynd yn ôl i fynd. Ac fe wnes i'i ddynu ac fe wnes i ddweud

roeddwn i eisiau sgwrs cyflym, roeddwn i eisiau siarad â chi ac fe wnaeth hi clocio yn gyflym bod gen i ddim mewn gwartheg ar ysbytol, bod rhywbeth yn digwydd. Ac, chi'n gwybod, ar y pwynt hwn y gwartheg heno, bod rhywbeth yn digwydd. Ac, chi'n gwybod, ar y pwynt hwn, fe wnes i ddweud beth oedd yn digwydd ac roedd hi'n hynod o ddiddordeb. Ac eto, chi'n gwybod, yn y prynu i'r pryn, fe wnes i alw fy mab a ceisais i ddweud i'w ddweud yn dda beth oedd yn digwydd. Ac roedd hi'n hynod o ddiddordeb ond rwy'n dweud mai roedd yn rhyfeddol ddiddordeb i'w gael was utterly terrifying for him, for my mother, for my best friends. It was probably more scary for them than it necessarily was for me on the whole during the experience. Yes. Well, you say that. I'm not sure whether anybody listening will necessarily.

You've been through such a lot, Lizzie, and I want to congratulate you, obviously, for coming through all this. You are all right. I am. Just stay with us. I just want to bring Kenga in our obstetrician what happened to Lizzie it was unusual wasn't it yes yeah it's very unusual um and you know it's a good thing that they picked it up very quickly and found the underlying cause so they were able to treat it properly but yes um I agree it must be completely terrifying for her and she sounds very very brave and you know to go through all that alone and her poor husband as well you know family at home who then can't be there with her it's yeah you know yeah I feel really my kind of empathies go to you. Yeah we should say actually Kenga you've had a child

yourself recently. It's not as if you're speaking, looking far back in time. I think you have an 18-month-old, don't you? Yes, yeah. Right, so all this is pretty raw for anybody who's been through this recently. I know you haven't gone through anything like Lizzie's experience. Lizzie, how is life now in terms of previous contributors have mentioned that idea of a cocoon? Have you been able to establish that?

Yes, absolutely. And I just want to add as well that whilst my experience was, you know, with hindsight terrifying, the NHS staff were absolutely unbelievable in the way in which they cared for me and were just so nurturing. And I certainly didn't feel alone at any point during the time that I was in hospital without my husband, which is saying quite a lot. Ac nid ydw i yn teimlo'n unig ar unrhyw bwynt yn ystod y cyfnod oeddwn yn ysbytio heb fy mab, sy'n dweud eithaf llawer. Felly byddwn i'n dweud i unrhyw ddyn sy'n edrych ymlaen at ddod â'i blant, nad yw'r pethau'n dod yn ddifrifol, nid ydynt yn cael unrhyw beth i'w gofio o ran y math o gofal y byddant yn ei gael. Ond o ran y tu ôl, ie, yn sicr. Mae wedi bod yn ddifrifol iawn, yn amlwg, bod fy mam, fy mab a'r tân-adol,

a'n teulu ac aelodau cyfnodol yn gallu dod i weld ein gilydd ac yn sicr ni, obviously that my mother, my mother and father-in-law and our immediate family and friends can't come and see our daughter and certainly us. But I have been able to, for example, breastfeed quite successfully when I wasn't so successful first time around with my daughter. And I think that's down to just time and being able to be at home. Yeah, but without over-egging it, we need to make the point that that mother, the mother you rang when you thought you were dying has still not seen you since she i have to say she came to she said she didn't want to see us because she'd get too upset because she wouldn't be able to come anywhere near us but she uh did drop over a few essential items um last week and she saw her from the gate but literally fleetingly

and found it very very distressing but certainly my mother and father-in-law haven't seen her yet. So all of that is yet to come. But we're trying to be positive about it. And if anything, it's something for people to look forward to, if anything. Yeah, well, that's very true. Lizzie, thank you so much. This is a lovely email and it's a positive one from Gemma, who just wants to talk about her experience at the University Hospital of Wales.

Three weeks ago, I gave birth to my beautiful baby girl. I arrived at 25 past seven and she was in the world by 7.52. My husband just about made it. I never felt alone. I never felt compromised. I never felt intimidated by PPE because the incredible staff at UHW supported me every step of the way. They explained everything, why the PPE was necessary.

They made me laugh and feel like I was in a room of people I'd known my whole life rather than just encountered. We need some good, positive stuff out there, and that's a ringing endorsement for everybody at the University Hospital of Wales. Right, we're all feeling quite emotional, even me, and I'm as hard as nails. Let's bring in Frankie.

Frankie, good morning to you. Morning. Tell me a little bit about your, this is your second baby. And what happened, Frankie? I think I had, well, despite the lockdown and everything, I don't have any, I think it was quite straightforward. So I was nearly 40 weeks when the government said there was a lockdown. And I just remember I was being induced. So it was nearly 40 weeks when the government said there was a lockdown. And I just remember I was being induced.

So it was a Friday and I went into hospital to be induced and the maternity ward was sectioned off. So I thought, OK, that's a bit. But I always say this before, even during any appointments or anything, even though I knew COVID was going on, I didn't feel unsafe in the hospital. Good. Whatsoever. I always felt safe. It was always at the back of my mind, but I felt fine.

So I went into the hospital to be induced and after a couple of hours, they said basically nothing was progressing and my son's heart rate was dropping so I would have to probably have a section. So this was about 11pm at night but however obviously at night there's not

a lot of staff there so they told me they may not be able to do it. They're quite short staff so they're not sure. So they came back to me and said they'll prefer to do it in the morning when they have a full team available so then I had to wait till the morning to have a section and that's when my section was scheduled in for because they didn't have enough staff but I think that would have happened any other day because it was a night shift anyway.

Right yeah yeah I think it's important to say that some of these experiences would have happened regardless of Covid-19 I guess but has your recovery been all right and you have a you have another child so that must be tough looking after it yeah i have a two-year-old toddler um so after my section they actually um discharged me the next day which i would say probably wasn't the best thing to do because um my first week of being at home i was in so much pain and literally wasn't mobile i had a toddler my husband was amazing he was there as well we literally had to take camp in our living room because i couldn't climb my stairs or anything and my son is nearly eight weeks now and i've only actually seen a midwife once

which i think it's a negative so i've had loads of phone calls but i don't know if you think back for anyone who's listening who's a mum we can all say we're okay when we're not but if you see my face you'd be able to tell if there was something wrong with me. I think that's a very important point. Let's put that to Kenga because you do deal in perinatal mental health Kenga. How

is that being dealt with right now? The idea that in the old days a health visitor would have that, well the question was always how are you feeling in yourself um what would you say to women like Frankie yeah I I completely agree that um you know Frankie that's really difficult experience for you and um I think you miss with part of the problem with telephone conversations is that you miss the body language, you know, the facial expressions. And we've found that as well.

And that's why we've tried to go on to other kind of virtual platforms to, you know, talk to women, but also be able to see them, you know, postnatally to look at the baby. And I really try my best to say to women, you look, there is no pressure to talk on the phone. If you want to come in and see me in person, or you want a different kind of appointment, or you want to do a virtual platform, then please feel welcome to. You know, part of us doing telephone conversations is protection for the women. Because, you know, when this all first started, women didn't want to come to hospital but certainly if you want the contact the physical contact then you know um you know midwives can come to your house um if it's necessary with ppe on or you know you can come to the hospital um

uh you know if you if you need to and i i we really do understand that that's something that we need to work on is that you know we miss with with and I we really do understand that that's something that we need to work on is that you know we miss with with telephone conversations all the other things that are kind of um you know indicators that people might be struggling yeah. Thank you very much Leah what about your situation in Glasgow that the whole point of seeing people meeting people in the flesh we're all missing people right now, all of us, but it's so important in that immediate post-birth period, isn't it? It is so important. And I think, you know, understandably, we've been talking about

hospitals as places of physical safety, and the top priority has to be to maintain infection control and stop more women and their families getting sick. However, there's also emotional safety, and that's a huge factor of which midwives are aware. And we must be aware that face-to-face meetings and just that immediate visceral contact can contribute to a sense of emotional safety and well-being for women. And we mustn't lose sight of that. And certainly, as Kinga has said, there have been some shortcomings because of the other measures we've had to put in place. But as midwives, we really should keep women's emotional safety at the front of our minds as well.

And we're doing our very best to do that all the time. Is there a slight danger that more of this postnatal care in particular might move online after this is all over? Because I think perhaps some health experts might regard the current situation as working rather well, when in fact, as Frankie illustrates, sometimes it's actually not that easy to tell the truth via Zoom or on FaceTime. You want to be with someone, you want to see them? I think the short answer to that question of will it all move online, at least from my personal point of view, is I hope not. I mean, I think we all recognise now from lockdown that there are some, you know, basic logistical tasks and very simple conversations that we can have well online and we

can have well over the phone. But there really is no substitute if you're really providing holistic women-centered care there's no substitute for seeing a woman for picking up on her body language for reading her facial cues and for just having that immediate physical rapport in the room so yes you know certainly there are ways that maybe the service can be streamlined and changed in the future for the better um but i think we would lose the real art and craft and essence of midwifery if we just put it all online kinga um what advice would you give to any woman who has given birth recently and is feeling low what would you say to them um so i would first of all say that you know talk it out with you know whoever they can um you know whether that be you know on the telephone or zoom you know talk to your friends

and family about your feelings and you you know um some of the kind of um your antenatal groups postnatal groups have got um online platforms and you'll often find that there are lots of other women in the same situation as you. If you feel that these, you know, symptoms are more concerning or your partner's noticed a change or, you know, another family member who lives with you has noticed a change, then, you know, please highlight that to your midwife or health visitor and escalate it. And, you know, some of the symptoms to look out for, especially in the postnatal period is, you know, if you're not feeling, you know, a bond with your baby, if you're, you know, not, obviously, we're not, no one's really sleeping in the postnatal period.

But, you know, if you feel that you're kind of waking up with anxiety, you're not, your appetite is reduced these kind of issues then I think that you know you need to seek help and get assessed. I knew we wouldn't have time for everything we haven't mentioned feeding but if you could just offer a couple of words of wisdom on that Kenga put it in perspective if whichever method you're using isn't working out for you don't give yourself a hard time yes i think that the message even out of the covid time is that um you know as the baby is fed and that you um stay sane is the kind of you know end message i would say and there is a lot of advice on the unicef uk Baby Friendly website about breastfeeding and bottle feeding. But, you know, really, you know, you just need to keep the baby healthy and yourself physically and mentally healthy. That is the very wise voice of Kenga Sivarajah, obstetrician.

And you also heard in that programme from Leah Hazard, who is a midwife in Glasgow, and from those amazing listeners as well. In order of appearance, Elsa and Ibi, Laura, Kate, Lizzie and Frankie. And we thank them all and congratulate them all as well, of course. Right, so much to squeeze in in terms of your reaction to what you heard. Let's try and do justice to the absolute extraordinary cascade of love for the people who spoke on the program that came in and to all the shades of

opinion on everything that was heard but a lot of you just wanted to say um the fantastic and it was it's awe-inspiring courage from some of those women um who are as i kept saying during the program just so understated about everything that they've been through. This is a listener who's a grandmother. Her name is Elaine. I haven't seen my second daughter since February and she's been very ill during her pregnancy. A very much longed for baby, she says.

We can't meet, although she only lives just over an hour away from me. And although I've asked, she doesn't feel we can meet until after the baby has been born at some point in the future. Her husband hasn't been able to go to scans with her and whether he can be with her at the birth is another unknown. I think he will be able to be with her in the birth, by the way. But anyway, I completely understand how important it is to keep everybody safe. loneliness of living alone and not being able to see adult children at this time is very real, says Elaine, who's a grandmother who naturally is very concerned. This is from another woman who says, I am profoundly deaf, but my mum listens to Woman's Hour. And I thought I would like to tell

you what it's like being pregnant and deaf right now. When I do go to the hospital or clinic, I have a British Sign Language interpreter, but this has been very difficult as I also rely on lip reading. And obviously this isn't possible when the interpreter is wearing a normal mask due to the hospital policy. So I've requested my interpreters to wear a plastic face visor. Requests for video links with interpreters have been refused as the hospital doesn't have the technology and it doesn't seem possible to have text messages. I am now being sent letters, which is a step in the right direction. While individual staff have mostly been very kind, it's been a struggle to get anything like the same level of support as a hearing person. I'll be on my own when I give birth as my partner is going to be

looking after our daughter and I'm trying to get hold of a see-through mask for my interpreter so that I can really understand what is happening. Mostly I manage to overcome the challenges that come with deafness with the support of family and interpreters but the virus has made this pregnancy and its difficulties much harder and more isolating than usual well i mean that is an experience that to my shame i hadn't even considered so thank you to that person for telling us about that and i'm sure somebody will come to your aid and make sure that you get the help you need when you give birth um this anonymous listener says my well wishes to all of the speakers you had on today, their bravery in talking about their experiences on national radio. I was in tears at the experience

of the lady who talked about her near-death experience and the instinctive feeling of just wanting to talk to her mother and her best friend at that hour and not wanting to worry her husband. Life perhaps can't be more fragile in that moment so I'm so glad she's all right and it turned out well. I hope she gets to see her mum and her family properly soon. From Sarah, my seventh granddaughter was born on the 24th of March. I still haven't seen her or held her. My son lives over 250 miles from me. I think that because obviously we're adhering to government guidelines and I might not see her until she's six months old. Unless, of course, says Sarah, I put on a beanie hat. That's Sarah for you. I don't need to say any

more. Well, I can't say any more other than that, but thank you for that. My view on being pregnant at this time, says another listener, is that it's very difficult for a a first-time mother especially when your partner isn't able to go to antenatal appointments with you this can make you feel very lonely and without support i am four months pregnant and have yet to meet my midwife with the apparent relaxation of the lockdown do you think there might come a point when partners are allowed to attend appointments? I don't know the answer to that, but we must say, of course, and it was made clear during the programme, the listeners, Lizzie in particular, who did give birth alone, you wouldn't be expected to do that. That was a decision that she made because she felt that her partner was better off at home with her

other child. But in general, you would be allowed to have somebody with you whilst you give birth, of course. This is from Sophie. I gave birth to a beautiful daughter on the 8th of May. And she is beautiful and perfect. But it's really hard being new parents in a pandemic. This is on our Instagram account. We moved last summer to be near my parents and older sister for family support. I cry every day because my mum's heart is breaking not being able to hold her new granddaughter and it's a struggle to keep on top of the house with a colicky newborn. Under normal circumstances my mum would have helped us out with these jobs or just held the baby while I did other things. Whilst I cannot praise NHS staff enough for doing their best, I do feel

really adrift without any in-person visit from a health visitor. I'm looking at my baby and being asked whether her eyes are clear and bright and it's difficult. I think they are but I don't have other babies to compare her to. My milk hasn't come in either and the guilt is really intense. I've got questions about formula feeding but I've got no one to ask. I know I'm in a position of huge privilege to have these worries and to to Instagram it was a couple of days ago so I hope things have got slightly better for you but Kenga Sivaraja our obstetrician was so clear at the end of the program she said sanity is what matters you do what you can in terms of feeding so please do be reassured by that thought and that advice which is very was very sincerely meant believe me from kenga who as i say had her second child only very recently she's only 18 months old that child

um what's this it's from a listener who says i had my first baby four weeks ago i'm a single mum i have found it incredibly difficult to negotiate the early weeks on my own and come to terms with the lack of sleep i I have many supportive friends who would love to come over and help me look after the baby to give me some rest and it feels so unfair not to be able to take them up on their offers. My mother's in Spain and couldn't come obviously. I feel isolated and I've struggled with thoughts and feelings around the birth and having a baby that I think I would have come to terms with more easily had I been able to get out. Well there we are that's another slice of life right now. The listener

does go on to say my midwife has been brilliant and the resources for struggling breastfeeders are abundant so I do feel like if I am struggling there are professionals I can turn to and as a result we have successfully negotiated some stressful difficulties with breastfeeding. Well, good. That sounds like a positive. From Fiona, I'm finding this all very difficult. It's my first baby. I feel very removed from my pregnancy as if it isn't really happening. I'm 19 and a half weeks pregnant and I'm due for my second scan this week, which again my husband can't come to. My first scan felt almost shameful. I was alone in a waiting room with another young woman and had no one to calm my nerves.

My sonographer scoffed at my request to video call my husband during the scan so he could feel part of it. She didn't seem to understand why I wanted him to experience it with me. She just said he'll be able to be here for the next one. I won't be having another child so I felt this was insensitive. I didn't feel any of the joy and the wonder you hear about during these scans. I was just really upset. Well Fiona I'm sorry about that and that does sound that's a negative experience, a relative rarity. But nevertheless, it was it was real for Fiona and it shouldn't have happened. Tom says my beautiful partner Anna gave birth to our impossibly perfect little boy Rupert on Wednesday after a 50 hour labour, 50 hour labour.

Due to Covid, I had to leave two hours after the birth. I haven't been able to visit since. While listening to your programme, I received the news today that I'm able to get them both from hospital. I cannot express my joy. Oh, God, that's almost it. Listen, I'm almost in tears here. I cannot express my joy. Today, my new life begins, says Tom.

Oh, Tom, you won't get a wink of sleep tonight or indeed the next night or indeed the night after that but congratulations to you and how brilliant and our best wishes and lots of love to anna and to perfect rupert um the very very best of luck to you all heather on saturday my lovely daughter-in-law gave birth to our second beautiful granddaughter in london we live in bel. I know it will be some time before we get to see her. How I long for that day when I can hold and cuddle her. In the meantime, I'm treasuring every photograph and video. This is from Yvonne.

I had my first baby at 8.30 in the morning on the first day of lockdown, which I think was March the 24th. I think that was right. It seems like a distant dream, doesn't it? But I think it was March 24th. Anyway, it's from Yvonne who goes on, we live in Orkney. Sadly, my baby Theo has breathing difficulties

and was in an air ambulance overnight to Aberdeen neonatal unit. My husband and I were unable to go on the flight with him and had to wait until the following day. We got home after a week, but it was so scary having to fly with a newborn who had had respiratory problems when corona affects breathing. He still hasn't met anybody apart from his parents and we are missing out on so many bonding opportunities as there are no classes, etc. Yvonne, congratulations to you. What an experience and our very best wishes to you all. The one thing I can say is that what we do know is that in 2040, baby Theo will be a lumbering 20 year old

and you'll try to tell him about what happened in 2020 and he won't be interested. Well, that's something I hope is a comfort to you because we've all got our birth stories. And in my experience, and it might just be me, they're not interested when you try to tell them how terrifying it all was when they first entered the world. But still, you know what happened. And it must have been quite a thing for you and your husband and honestly that's really tough. This is from Dr Sarah Fry in the maternity unit where I work we've made many changes to the way we deliver our services in order to maintain social distancing we have been doing many of our obstetrician antenatal clinic consultations by

telephone. This has been a great success and well received by our expectant mothers who find a phone call more convenient than having to come to the hospital and sit in the waiting room for an appointment that's normally running late. We're collecting data on these clinics at the moment but based on their apparent success we are likely to carry on using more telephone consultations in the future, even when the pandemic has passed. Well, that's interesting. It's something I did mention in the programme. And I suppose my concern would be that, I don't know, is everybody happy with doing all this on the phone? I'm just not sure. And so I suppose I'm asking women who've been on the receiving end of such consultations to let us know what they think.

I know everybody's different, but I just wonder whether that is entirely satisfactory for everybody. And from Isabel, it's so interesting hearing about mother's birth experiences during lockdown, particularly as our daughter has just gone into labour a couple of hours ago. We await her news with a mix of anxiety and anticipation. Many thanks for your programme. Well, Isabel, you've left us all hanging there. So I hope you can get back in touch with the programme and let us know how your daughter gets on and what happens.

But in the meantime, fingers crossed that everything goes well. I'm sure it will go well and congratulations to you we could go on but we just can't we're not allowed to because somebody apparently other people use this studio I find that so I mean why it's mine it's ours

we're back tomorrow with more Woman's Hour and thank you so much for taking part today I really enjoyed it and I know a lot of other people found it very moving as well. We're back tomorrow. Hi, my name's Jarvis Cocker. And I'm here to tell you about Wireless Nights. A nocturnal investigation into the human condition.

A collection of stories about the night and the people who come alive after dark. From nightclubs to night rail, from the man in the moon to the land of the midnight sun, join me and discover a different kind of nightlife. All episodes now available on the BBC Sounds app. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.