Woman's Hour - Having a sick sibling, Boxing pioneers, Abortion in Iran, Where do you keep your awards?

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Gracie Nuttall, sister of Laura Nuttall who died aged 23 in May of a glioblastoma, and Megan Fryer-Kelsey, whose brother Ezra died eleven years ago of leukodystrophy, join Anita to discuss what it's like to grow up with a sibling who is ill, and how parents can support non-sick siblings.Young people in Italy are expressing outrage on social media after Italian judges decided to clear a man of groping a teenager because it lasted less than 10 seconds. The BBC's Sofia Bettiza joins Anita from Rome. Where do you put your awards and achievements? Do you show them off in your house? Which room do they fit in best? And if you have kids, what do you do with all their achievements once they’ve flown the nest? Well, academic Dr Louise Creechan keeps hers in her downstairs loo. Co-host of the Wittering Whitehalls, Hilary Whitehall, kept her trophy in her handbag for a while. Anita asks them why.The Supreme Leader of Iran has called for a massive population increase, and the state has been offering financial incentives for women to have more children. There is also now more pressure on women not to access contraception, and abortion has been criminalised further, with a potential prison sentence for women being proposed by the regime. Meanwhile cases of unsafe illegal abortions have increased. The BBC’s Saba Zavarei has been speaking to Iranian women about their experiences and joins Anita.Right to Fight tells the surprising story of the maverick pioneers of women’s boxing, who defied sexism and racism for their place in the ring; overcoming the odds to become the first women issued with professional boxing licenses. Director Georgina Cammalleri joins Anita.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Today we're going to be talking about your achievements and accomplishments, or rather what your style is when it comes to talking about your successes. Are you the person who proudly and shamelessly tells the world because, well, what's there to be shameful about? For instance, I've been given the huge honour

of being awarded a doctorate from my old uni, Leeds. Thought I'd just drop that in there. So from next week, it'll be Dr Rani. Shameless and also very culturally Indian. We love to shout about what we've done. Or is your style the more classically British humble brag? How you tell everyone without really, really saying anything. Like putting your awards in the downstairs toilet because it's just the toilet.

The toilet where everyone is going to see your awards. Or do you never say anything to anyone? In which case, let's shout about you today. Tell me about your awards and accomplishments and what you've done with them, whether it's your swimming certificate, your brownie badges, your PhD or your cycling proficiency. I want to hear about them all today and whether you blow your own trumpet or like to keep it all to yourself. You can text me. It's the usual way of getting in touch. The text number is 84844. You can also email me by going to our website or you can drop me a WhatsApp message or a voice note. 03700100444 is the number to text. new documentary about female boxing in America. It's a forgotten and fascinating bit of feminist history. We'll also be heading to Iran to discover how women are coping with the lack of access to

abortions. And of course, we'll be hearing from you about everything we will talk about on the programme today. So if you have a thought or an opinion or want to share your own story, then please do feel free to get in touch that text number once again 84844 if you want to send me an email go to our website but first how does it feel to be the sibling of a young person who is very very ill perhaps that's your experience or maybe you're the parent struggling to look after a sick child and unsure what you can do to support your other children this is something known well to our next guests, Gracie Nuttall, sister of Laura Nuttall,

who died at the age of 23 in May of glioblastoma, and for Megan Fryer Kelsey, whose brother Ezra died 11 years ago of leukodystrophy, aged only 13. Welcome, Gracie and Megan. Thank you both for joining me on Woman's Hour to talk about this. Gracie, I'm going to come to you first. You were 16 when Laura was diagnosed. I would like to know how your life changed at that point.

Wow. Yeah, a lot happened sort of around that time. And obviously you're trying to get to grips with getting older and becoming an adult at the same time um it was it was really really hard and I feel like the the one person in my life who I could look up to and I could speak to I couldn't anymore because she was poorly and it was it was very very difficult but I feel like we had a very good support system I know a lot of people don't get that, but it definitely had its challenges, it's fair to say. What were they? I think trying to get on with my education and trying to put myself into consideration as well as making sure that my sister was okay and that I wasn't taking up

too much of my parents attention and things like that it was definitely it was definitely difficult to juggle so many things all at the same time and I think it was obviously very hard for my parents as well but it's something that people don't speak about and it's something that there's very little advice on as well. And you've got other siblings as well? No, I don't. Well, it was just me and my sister. And so how did... Was there a conversation with your parents? Not really.

How did the relationship change? It just sort of became we were both very equal. And then she got diagnosed and all of a sudden it felt like I didn't matter so much, which I know if my mum heard me, she'd say that's not true. But that is kind of how it felt. And you can't really speak about it. You can't say, mum, can I just have you for a night or can I just can we just do something because you know that your sister has to come first and that she is the most important thing

because anything I was going through was never going to be as bad as what she was going through at the time yeah and 16 is such a an important age isn't it like so you've got all your exams going on hormones as a teenager aging all your all your relationships at school and all the problems that can you're going through but it must have been quite hard like you said to be able to share those even your own achievements in life because of what your mum and dad are going through with with your sister yeah absolutely I felt like a lot from those years my parents didn't and probably still don't know about me and I think you know it obviously my sister had to come first but there was you know it's such a big change

being 16 you know so much going on like you say and they just weren't able to give me the support that they wanted to give me as well because they had to be so focused on Laura because she would have died straight away if they hadn't done anything so I think you just you end up putting yourself on the back burner and there is very little support for siblings and that's something that we want to change which is why we are talking about it today if anybody out there is going through this right now or has experience of it or if indeed you're a parent and you'd like to share your thoughts then please do um Megan I'm going to bring you in now because your situation was slightly different because your brother Ezra he was he was ill before you were born so tell me about the impact it had on your life growing up

sure so because I've never known any different I think for me a normal life has always been taking extra time when going somewhere to unload the wheelchair make sure we have essentials when we go and do new activities having a look on the website in terms of accessibility and inclusivity and also trying to include everyone to the best of their abilities whatever I'm doing because I know that's what I want for my brother and sister so can you relate to anything that Grace was saying about you know putting your own self second and not going to your parents at all I mean you were so little um not talking about whatever might be troubling you I think maybe it's because I stepped into the big sister role pretty soon

because my older brother couldn't be the older sibling I think my priority has always been family and checking my siblings are okay so maybe subconsciously I downplayed my own problems and achievements. But just like Gracie, I was very lucky that we have a strong network of family and friends too. So that made it much easier that if I couldn't speak to my parents, I know that family friends were always going to be there looking over me and also celebrating my achievements too. And you do have siblings? Yes I have a younger brother and a younger sister as well Amelia she also has leukodystrophy. And so you had you have that shared experience with them as well and were they supportive? Did you have each other? Yeah, I think so. I mean, because we were all so young when Ezra was around,

I'm not sure we ever had the conversation of we're all here together, we'll get through it together. But I think now as we're older, we can, me and my brother especially, can talk about our experiences with both our ill siblings and connect about it and Gracie it was just you and Laura but of course your parents have each other so do you how do you feel about that it's it's hard being the only one I think um I do often wish that they'd had another child because I think if there was someone else who understood it that would make it a lot easier because even people who've lost

siblings you know we can't quite relate to each other because the situation is always different I think I've been really really lucky that I've got such a good group of friends and that is definitely what has got me through but I do think it's difficult when you've not got another sibling to speak to and you know you end up people people now ask me if I've got a sibling and I don't really know how to answer because I used to and I kind of still do but I don't anymore and I think that you know it it's just it kind of wins you every time someone asks it can you explain the phrase glass child to us yeah so it's I'm never brilliant at explaining it but um it's basically the idea of a sibling who is so often looked through that they almost come across as like glass you can see straight through them not in the way of the transparent but in the way of people look straight past them because they're constantly worrying about their sibling.

So someone told me about that quite late on. I think it was this year. And when I explained it to my mum, she was like, God, yeah, you are. And it's a term used to describe the siblings that are overlooked, really. And when someone gave you that phrase and you thought oh yeah I can relate to that how did it make you feel what did you remember and what did you realize that had happened that made you the glass child I think you know every single conversation I've had over the last four and a half years with basically anybody the first question they'll ask me is how's your sister and you get very used to it very quickly until

like I say when I was shown that I thought god that's that's not normal and that's not really something that that should be happening and you just get so used to it that you don't think about it until someone puts it forward with an actual term and a phrase that you kind of go oh god that's an actual recognized thing and there are other people in this position as well. Megan can you relate to glass child? I also only recently heard the term um I think it's been popularized on TikTok or um social media I understand where it's coming from. I find it difficult to relate to it because I had other siblings and my parents always stressed normalcy and trying to get on with all of our lives equally. And luckily for me, I didn't feel neglected at any time because there were so many of us as

well there's multiple children to look after. How do you think Megan your grief has changed over the 11 years since your brother died? I think grief never gets easier um I think it can be triggered at any time by the smallest of things even when you're not expecting it however when as an adult now looking back on Ezra's short life I know that it was a life well lived and loved and that makes the difficult moments much more easier to accept we've got some messages coming in from our listeners caroline has been in touch from lancashire she says my sister died when i was 16 um she was 18 i felt as though my grief was ignored only one teacher at school asked me how i was that was in 1983 and hopefully things are different these days what about school and the support you get from sort of external environments from without the outside the home Gracie?

I think school school did a lot for me but it was we were quite a small area and it was a very small school so I think a lot of people didn't really know how to approach it um but the the support was definitely there I think people were just quite scared of saying the wrong thing which I've definitely found a lot since Laura's passed as well um but I think people mean well they're just not sure how to kind of put that into words and what to do for the best because what do you do there's there's nothing that you can do to make anyone feel better it's it's an awful situation and you know no nice words or anything can fix that another message has come in I'm a parent of four daughters one of whom is suffering with anorexia it's taken a huge amount of mindfulness to remember to give attention to my other three children and remember to focus on normal family life including having fun living with a chronic illness is hard on the

whole family but I can see the profound impact on the siblings thank you to those of you getting touch about this um what about how you maintain a semblance of normalcy Gracie how was that achieved in your household or Or maybe it wasn't? It definitely wasn't in our household. I think everything completely flipped and in a way for the better because Laura was so strong and so determined. She decided she wanted to do a bucket list. So we spent the last sort of four and a half years doing incredible and amazing activities that she wanted to do and doing all the craziest things that people would be going oh god how did you do that and I think the normality just completely went and in a way that was good because it became a new normal of all these weird and wonderful things but in a way you just kind of want to feel like a

teenager and you want to be doing what your friends are doing and living a normal life. But obviously we're so grateful for all the opportunities that we managed to get and give to Laura that it's very 50-50, you feel quite torn. Like what? What was on her bucket list? Oh God, what wasn't? We met Michelle Obama, she went fishing with Bob Mortimer and Paul Whitehouse my sister was very very strange but proudly so so she wanted to drive a monster truck and drive a boat and a tank and none of this sounds strange to me this sounds amazing she's right right up my street look brilliant no very very strange I used to always say to her can you not can we not do something

normal like go to Disneyland or meet Taylor Swift? But she wasn't up for that. We just found a new normal, I guess. This is a question for both of you, but I'll ask you, Megan. Did you ever feel guilty about being physically well? I didn't, but I understand how some siblings might be able, like might be feeling that way I think having such a strong network of friends and family and also not knowing any different made it easier to focus on my siblings and realize my privilege in being able-bodied, but also not letting that define me and my emotions growing up.

And your sister Amelia also has leukodystrophy. How has your experience with her illness been different to that of Ezra's? Millie's condition isn't as severe as Ezra's was. However, it's still a life-limiting condition and there are up and down days. I think, especially as an adult and getting to reflect on the short time that I had with Ezra, it makes the time that I spend with my sister much more significant and stressing quality over quantity, I will make the most of all the time that I do have with my sister. So I think it's made that more important for me. And Gracie, we've got to talk about the campaign that you have to honour your sister, supporting the Use Your Brains campaign.

Tell us about that. Yeah, so it's a campaign with our brain bank and they have just recently published a white paper, basically. And what we want is tumour tissue to be universally frozen for genomic sequencing and for that to be accessible for everyone. We want reliable information on glioblastoma for patients and carers on government websites like the NHS website. And we want an increase in the number of UK drug trials for people with glioblastoma. And I think it doesn't sound like a lot to ask, but that could potentially turn this disease from terminal to treatable.

And that's all we want, really. We just want longer and more research from people who have this horrific disease. Well, I want to thank you both for coming on and talking to me this morning, Gracie and Megan. And if you've been affected by the issues raised by my guests, there are links to support on the Woman's Hour website. And we've had another message in saying from somebody saying my sibling was born with a heart problem that led to his death in 1979 when I was 10 years old. There was little support for my parents losing a child back then and definitely no recognition of the impact on me as the surviving child. I became the glass child at that moment and have felt the long-lasting impacts ever since.

84844 is the number to text. Now to Italy where young people are expressing outrage on social media after Italian judges decided to clear a man of groping a teenager because it lasted less than 10 seconds. Well, here to tell us more is the BBC's Sofia Betizza, who joins us from Rome. Good morning, Sofia. Tell us more about this incident. What happened? Well, Anita, the incident happened last year in April 2022, and it involves a 17-year-old student at a high school here in Rome. Basically, she described walking up a staircase to class. She was with a friend, and she suddenly felt her trousers fall down, a hand touching her and grabbing her underwear. Now she turned around and she saw that the man who was groping her was a caretaker who worked at the school.

His name is Antonio Avola. He is 66 years old. And so after this happened, the student reported him to the police. And what happened? Went to court? So he did go to court and he basically admitted to groping her. He admitted to groping her without consent, but he said that it was a joke. And according to the student, what happened is, you know, after he groped her, she turned around and he said to her, love, you know that I was only joking. And so basically a public prosecutor in Rome asked for a three and a half year prison sentence for the caretaker.

And what did the judges say? So this happened last year, but this week the caretaker was acquitted of sexual assault charges. Because according to the judges, what happened does not constitute a crime because it lasted less than 10 seconds. Basically, the judges said that the caretaker did not linger. He groped the teenager only briefly, performing what they say was an awkward maneuver without last. So basically, Anita, you know, he was cleared because the groping did not last long enough. And so what's been the reaction to this story in Italy? So basically, since the ruling, many people in Italy have been expressing anger and outrage on social media. You've got the words palpata breve, which means a brief groping that have become a trend on Instagram and TikTok. And so has the hashtag 10 secondi, which means 10

seconds. So Italians, lots of Italians have been posting videos of themselves looking at the camera in silence and touching their intimate parts for 10 seconds straight. And, you know, some of them are actually quite uncomfortable to watch. But I think, you know, I think that's done on purpose because what the videos want to show is just how long 10 seconds can feel. Yeah. And who is it that's taking to social media? Is it a cross section of society? Is it young people? So the first video was posted by an actor called Paolo Camilli.

And he is quite well known abroad because he was in the White Lotus. And since he posted his first video, thousands of young people, especially young people, have been posting about this. One of them is Chiara Ferragni, who is Italy's most famous influencer. She's got about 29 million followers on Instagram. And we've also heard from another influencer called Francesco Ciconetti. And he wrote on TikTok, men don't have the right to touch women's bodies, not even for a second, let alone 10. So is this starting a conversation in Italy about sexual assault? I mean, I think it is because what a lot of people

have been saying on social media is that the judge's decision to acquit the caretaker show just how normalized the sexual harassment is in Italian society in 2023. Now, we've also heard from the student who, you know, who was groped, who is now 18 years old. She gave an interview to the Italian newspaper Il Corriere della Sera. And she said she is disappointed and very, very angry because she feels that the judges basically implied that what the caretaker did was okay because he didn't last long enough and because he was only joking. But she said to the paper, you know, he growled my bottom,

he then pulled me up, hurting my private parts. So for me, this is not a joke. This is not how an old man should joke with a teenager. And is this carrying on? Do you think anything will change? What's the feeling around this now? I think the feeling is that, I mean, I can't tell you for sure, but I think quite a lot of people here are feeling quite frustrated

because there is a feeling that things will not change. And the students said that she feels doubly betrayed by the school and by the justice system. She said that she feels that she made a mistake trusting the institutions. And she also said that she fears that the judge's ruling could deter girls and women from coming forward in the future if they are subjected to such attacks. Thank you so much for speaking to us live from Rome. That's the BBC's Sofia Batitsa. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch with me about your experiences of losing a sibling or being the parent of a sick child. I have two daughters.

The youngest daughter was diagnosed at birth with cerebral palsy and my three-year-old was dragged to every appointment as there was no childcare. I always remember the head of physiotherapy looked at my eldest and said, she's already the forgotten child. Never forget her. That stayed with me forever. Another message here saying,

my brother died of a brain tumour in 1983. There was no bereavement counseling no talking about cancer this has had far-reaching effects and thank goodness it's changed so much thank you for raising the issue and vicky has been in touch to say my brother died when he was 10 and i was 12 i spent the rest of my life apologizing for being the one who didn't die. I'm now 50 and it's still so painful remembering how I didn't exist for my parents after he died other than to be someone they resented. I loved my brother so very much. Thank you for your messages. Now, do you have your awards and achievements on display? And if yes, where do you keep them well academic dr louise creakin keeps her phd in her downstairs guest loo hillary whitehall mum of the comedian jack and co-host of the

wittering whitehall podcast podcast even once kept a trophy she'd won in her handbag for easy access so i'd like to know where you keep yours in fact you're getting in touch with me already i graduated from university with a first class honours degree in criminology at the age of 58 after both my daughters graduated. I had a party to celebrate and put my graduation photo in the hallway alongside my daughter's grad photos. I took it down recently as people found it amusing.

Carmel, put it back up. I mean, this is standard procedure in every Asian household. Whether you want your photograph up or not, that degree photo is on the mantelpiece prime position to humiliate you for the rest of your life let me bring Louise and Hilary in here very good morning welcome to Woman's Hour now Louise describe your downstairs loo for us my downstairs toilet is perhaps an offense on the eyes um I think um so basically what happened was it was when I got my PhD it took me a very very long time to do it because it's almost like when you're dyslexic a PhD in English literature is difficult which I didn't realize but my PhD was

kind of the bane of my wife's life so when I got it I was like I'm going to get the most gaudy ridiculous frame for this thing and we're going to put it somewhere and it's just going to be ridiculous but when we got into our house my wife found it first and put it in the loo um so you know all that sort of excitement, oh, look what I did. It just got completely undercut by my wife just being done with the whole experience of me going through the PhD. So then the downstairs toilet became what we call the smug bastard toilet or the toilet of achievement. So it's now got a range of awards in there. Some that I'm genuinely pretty pleased about, you know, sports medals and things.

But then it also ranges to like, we found my wife's French homework from when she was 11, but it's Angel of the North because we're in the Northeast and it's spelled incorrectly. So we thought it was funny. So we put it on the wall.

Similarly, a letter home from school about when I tanked my food technology exam on purpose and got 18%. That letter home is been proud pride of place in that toilet so you know although it's kind of boastful about some things it's undercut by like silly silly things very good I mean you're in good company though aren't you because loads of actresses have famously put their awards in the loo Emma Thompson Kate Winslet being two um what what is so fitting

about the toilet why the toilet i think it's because it just kind of undercuts the kind of pomposity of award giving so it's you know you're you're just you're there doing what everyone does um in that toilet and but then you've got the kind of awards there so it's just it just kind of I don't know it's just a weird juxtaposition I find quite amusing um yeah I'm going to bring Hilary in here Hilary is it is it is it cutting cutting it down or is it a humble brag because anyone who comes to your house is probably going to use that loo at some point and is going to see all those achievements I think I think we have to use humor in these things oh i mean we should use humor at all times to be honest um so i think it i think it's a little a giggle for people to go in and

say okay yeah i get it i get it i have to say about downstairs loo yeah at one stage um a program that michael did with jack they made a hologram of Michael's face. So I put it above the loo. So it's fine for us gals because we sit with our backs to behind the loo. Guys find it very, very unnerving that there is Michael Whitehall staring at them when they go to the loo. What's this story about you taking your trophy around with you in a handbag for a while?

Well, I was doing it for the older gals out there because I, until quite recently, until I picked up a terrible injury, played quite serious hockey, league hockey. And I played for a team in the Surrey League, albeit Division 9, but we were there doing our stuff. And I was, in 2016, I was top scorer and I won the Captain's Cup. cup now I should explain that this cup was about this big and I decided that none of my family were going to trumpet this achievement so

I was going to do it for myself so this cup came everywhere with me for the year that I had it and during that year I was very lucky thanks Jack primarily, to meet a lot of celebrities. And I would always get a selfie with the celebrity and the cup. On a couple of occasions with Jack, I remember one particular occasion, I got one with Mourinho, Jose Mourinho. And he said, mother, this man has won the Champions League. He's not interested in your cup. And actually, he turned around and said, no, Jack, I'm very interested in the cup that your mother has won. Let me see it. And then I got out the camera

and I got a picture with Mourinho. It was amazing. Which is, it's charming, isn't it? And you could get away with it. And yeah, and it's very funny. But why are we reluctant to celebrate our achievements? Do we think it's a British thing that we like to underplay everything?

We're understated? Yeah. You know, it's like, I mean, I've always sort of slightly underplayed my children. I'm not the sort of parent that says, oh, my child's just got three A's at A level. You know, I say, oh, well, they've just about struggled through their A level.

Yeah, what is that? I don't know. Maybe it was my family, but we very much underplayed achievements I wonder if it feels like it might be a cultural thing what about up in Scotland, Louise? Well, I'm down south now but yeah, I think

it is a cultural thing I think there's a deep disdain at least I really feel it it's embarrassing to have the fuss made. You want it, you want that validation, but there is that internal cringe. I think there's something about, I don't know, I've always felt like I really enjoy being the underdog in a situation. So when I achieve something, I want people to know about it.

But I don't want them to make too much of a fuss because it wasn't expected like I don't know I think it's a very it's a it's complex it shouldn't be complex you've done something great you've got an award yeah or you know you've done something silly at school and got another home um and you you know you you should sort of accept it and be like oh this is this is great, this is me, done. But it's more complex than that, the sort of feelings attached to it. It's like, oh, I've got this material object. Where do I put that?

Who do I show that to? It's not like you can kind of move on because you've still got that object in your house. So what do you do with it? Do we all suffer from imposter syndrome are we just trying to sort of mitigate the imposter syndrome or you know as it were sidestep it by doing that yeah or is it is it because we don't want other people to think oh i don't know whether it's envy or just think oh who do they think they are being big for their

boots i'm just thinking about the indian experience and certainly the diasporic indian experience which is you set there's an incredible pride when someone achieves a level of success so there isn't this you know that they are going to be genuinely happy for you when you tell them that your children have done something that's meant that makes you feel proud so you know it's just, you don't worry about, so, you know, that's my experience. Part of my rationale for this cup was that my avowed aim is to embarrass my children at all times now that they're adults. So I love doing that. I'm very upset that Jack, I have to say,

Jack is on tour at the moment, bless him. He's going all around the country. Tonight, he happens to be at the O2 Arena. There you go. There's a humble brag. My son's at the O2. Come on. But my biggest regret is I can't get the cup there

because I had to give it back. I would love to have hijacked him on stage with the cup. Amazing. You've managed to tell us your story about the cup, but also celebrate the fact that your son is at the O2 tonight. So well done. Yeah, well done. That's his achievement, not mine.

Well, you know, parents have a big part to play as well. I think it's the that's whose achievement not mine though well you know you know parents have a big part to play as well i think it's the same level of achievement yeah definitely it's much better are you gonna be and uh and louise your wife's just had a baby do you see you doing the same thing you're gonna be celebrating her accomplishments you're gonna be putting her little baby things up and a childhood well it's uh it's a he so really was born on Monday. Congratulations. So he's four days old and I've had no sleep. So hence the hysteria. So how are the nights? Well, the first night was suspiciously OK, but last night he didn't settle till 5am and then I had to come on here.

Not had to, this is great fun. This is great. But yeah, I mean, every achievement, the most insignificant yeah the more fuss it's getting that's how I kind of think about it I just find it very funny wonderful wonderful that's what we like to hear Louise and Hilary a pleasure speaking to you both thank you I want to get in early doors and say thank you so much doctor haha yes that's right Dr Rani from now on. Brilliant. Thanks. You're the first to have called me it. And I like it a lot. Achievement. Yes. 84844. Thank you. So many of you getting in touch with your achievements and we are going to shout about them. My daughter calls the downstairs loo the toilet of intimidation. All our degrees, masters and PhD certificates are on the wall facing you.

Catherine says on our sitting room mantelpiece, I have the designs for my wedding dress, which I drew age nine. I didn't win any prizes for it, but my dear mum was proud of it, kept it for years, and all our visitors love the fact that it's on display. I'm glad to say the dress I wore, age 28, looks nothing like it. And another one here, my girlfriend keeps her two Guinness World Records in the loo. We can always tell when someone has been to the toilet because they will come back asking about them. Now, it has been 10 months since widespread protests took shook Iran with women at the forefront trying to reclaim their bodily autonomy in the face of compulsory hijab laws.

But what's less well known is that the Islamic Republic has been tightening other laws on women's choices. The Supreme Leader of Iran has called for a massive population increase and the state has been offering financial incentives for women to have more children. There's also now more pressure on women not to access contraception and abortion has been restricted further with a potential prison sentence for women being proposed by the regime. Meanwhile, cases of unsafe illegal abortions have increased in what Iran's

authorities are calling catastrophic statistics, leaving tens of thousands of women in a vulnerable position. Well, here with us is the BBC's Sabah Zavarei. And in a moment, we will hear one woman's story from Iran. She'll describe in some detail her experience of having an abortion, which you may find distressing. And there are links on our website to support. Sabah, good morning. Let's start by getting into what this family law is and how it's affecting women's lives in Iran. Yeah, sure. So for many years, the Supreme Leader of Iran has been calling for a massive and a faster population growth from around 80 million to 150 million, almost double. And there have been some attempts in the past to reduce people's control over their reproduction. But this family law, which is called rejuvenation of the population and support of the family,

is a comprehensive plan. So on one side, it pushes different governmental bodies to provide incentives such as advantageous terms for car or house purchase to encourage families to have more children. But also it reaches into cultural sphere by banning content, any content, that promotes any lifestyle rather than traditional family.

And on billboards, on state TV, on any official platform, women are constantly bombarded with this representation of a good woman to be the perfect, the faithful housewife and mother of many children. So it also has a psychological and mental impact. And this plan also stops distribution of free contraceptives and it further criminalizes abortion. Now, abortion has never been legal in Iran, in post-revolutionary Iran.

And women can't, I mean, not only they can't go to hospital freely to just ask for help, because they know they're going to be refused, but also for the social, for the fear of social and legal consequences, they find themselves in extreme loneliness in the whole process. So now we can listen to Mina's story. She's telling us a story of her abortion in Iran from a decade ago. But to my surprise, when I was talking to so many other women with more recent experiences, nothing has changed, nothing has improved. And the stories are very much still similar.

Abortion in Iran is not a choice. The government keeps tightening the laws, making it even harder for women every day. My own experience of having an abortion in Iran, like so many others, wasn't straightforward or safe. But I know it wasn't as horrific as what many women have to go through. There's so many aspects to this issue. One of them is the lack of proper medical care and support for safe abortion then there is a pressure of your own family finding out you're pregnant the judgment from people around you the absence of post-abortion care that you may need

and most importantly the fear of doing something illegal and unknown consequences that come with it. Not to say the experience can have long-lasting physical and mental health effects on you. And not to mention that abortion in Iran is simply not an option for women if they're not married. Finding a decent doctor who's willing to perform a safe abortion is quite difficult. And if you do find one, then they'll charge you an arm and a leg so abortion in Iran is also heavily class dependent in my case when I went for my second abortion I had no choice but to get pills from the black market through a friend because at the time I couldn't afford it and I couldn't ask money from my own family. Anyway I got the pills and I had heard that the pills might be fake and so there is a chance that

they might not work and that's why I took an extra pill just in case. After waiting for hours the cramps started and the bleeding began I felt quite sick so I ended up in the hospital but I couldn't really tell the truth because you don't know what to expect from the hospital members they might want to call the police, they might ask you to call your family. So I lied and said I was having a heavy period. They kept me for a few hours and then they let me go. Obviously the bleeding didn't stop there, it continued for days and I was getting weaker and then I had no choice but to see a proper doctor so I found this midwife in Karaj and I made an appointment certain time I couldn't be late otherwise she wouldn't see me again that was the rule so I entered this room it was a basement filled with boxes, like they just moved in. I was on my own because nobody else could be in and that was the rule. It felt like a scene from

a surreal movie, but it was quite real, brutally real. I walked into the room and she asked me to sit on the bed and open my legs. No further questions asked, not even my name as there shouldn't be any evidence left behind. At that point, I knew the place is pretty grim, not hygienic at all, but that was the least of my worries to be honest I didn't care I just wanted a successful abortion whatever that meant she examined me in silence and she said she needs to perform a vacuum aspiration without any further explanation my whole body was covered in cold sweats but I had no choice but to go with it I was only 22 and the thought of whether I would survive this or not made me shrink my body and she kept asking me to relax she brought the steel ball and told me it would be better if I looked away. I could already see the vacuum with the metal had attached to it and I kept asking myself was it clean, was it clean but I really didn't have

a choice. She told me to be quiet which I did. I had no choice. The pain was the least of my worries at that time but I really couldn't deny it either. The suction ended and I went home and the bleeding continued and after a few weeks I checked and it seems that the abortion had been successful. But the consequences of having an unsafe abortion doesn't end there after some time the pain persisted and at this stage I decided to see a proper doctor it was a male gynecologist this time as soon as he examined me he asked me if I had an abortion and that's when I found out that the suction had caused a wound in my uterus and he told me this is the consequences of sleeping around with boys. So the cruelty of that moment for a 22 year old

was painfully unbearable. It wasn't only physical pain that you have to go through, it wasn't only your life that you were risking, it was the judgment of strangers that you also had to deal with. A month passed and I found out that my best friend was also pregnant. We had no choice but to take her back to the same place I went. Because there were no other options, no other safe routes available. But despite all these, I consider myself quite lucky because I had a strong support bubble who cared for me during and after my abortion. But I know that there are many, many other women that have to go through this horrific experience on their own and in silence.

And we heard there from Mina and a very distressing experience that she had to go through. And that happened to her 10 years ago and you're saying nothing's changed? Nothing. Yeah, I've just in the past couple of weeks, I've been interviewing other women who've had to have abortion a week ago, three years ago. And yeah, like shockingly, it's all very similar. But despite the difficulties, Sabah, the number of unsafe abortions is going up. Why is that? I mean, we heard Mina that she kept saying a couple of times that she had no choice.

So I was talking yesterday with an Iranian reproductive rights activism campaigner, and she told me something interesting. She said, if a woman decides to terminate her pregnancy, she will find a way, no matter the cost. And I think many might agree with that. So many women have personal reasons. They might feel that they're too young, or they're mentally not ready to become a mother, they're studying or they're not in a supporting relationship. So these are all like personal reasons that they might have. And they all came up in the interviews that I did with Women Inside Iran. But I had two things very frequently coming up in the interviews.

One of them was financial reasons. So cost of living, very high inflation, precarious jobs, an unstable economy. So women feel that they can't support this potential child financially. And then the other words that came up a vision about our own future. How can we bring a child to this socio-political atmosphere? And let's not forget that in a short period of widespread protests across Iran just recently, more than 70 children were among those who were killed by the Islamic Republic. So how are the laws changing around abortion? So many things are changing. I'm just going to highlight the important things. And one of the things that is changing is that for a woman to do a blood test, she has to use her national ID. And if she's pregnant, that will be registered. So the state

can always chase and they will know that you're pregnant and they can come after you. And they will know what you're going to do with your pregnancy, which is a new level of intrusion into privacy. As other part of the new law, anyone who plays a part in abortion, like the doctor, the nurse, midwife, drug seller, anyone can be sentenced to two to five years in prison and their license for work, their work license can be revoked. So we have had cases that doctors and nurses have lost their jobs forever.

And what about contraception finally? So the free contraception scheme that was distributed by government in less privileged areas, that's stopped and banned. And's just leaving um deprived people even more vulnerable sabba thank you very much uh for that um if you would like to um get in touch there or would like to uh visit our website if you are affected by this issue and you'd like some support then go to the woman's hour website sabba thank you, Right to Fight tells the previously untold and surprising story of the maverick pioneers of women's boxing who defied sexism and racism

for their place in the ring, overcoming the odds to become the first woman in the United States issued with professional boxing licenses. The TV documentary weaves together rare and previously unseen archive footage, intimate interviews with the key fighters behind the campaigns, managers, trainers, judges, spectators. You are taken ringside to one of the biggest fights that's never properly been told until now. And I'm delighted to say I'm joined by the director, Georgina Camilleri.

Welcome, Georgina, to Woman's Hour. I think this is an excellent documentary. I have to say I wept at the end. So thank you for putting it out there and bringing this forgotten bit of feminist history to light. Where did the story idea come from? OK, well, thank you, by the way. That was the idea. Just had to get it out there.

That was the idea for you to weep at the end. Yeah. So I'm glad it worked. So it began about three years ago I think I was working at Raw and I was coming up with ideas for sports documentaries. Raw the production company. The production company and we were just sitting in the room and I was really interested in pioneers and my exec was saying well why don't you look at pioneers in boxing and I went online and I found this 30 minute documentary film from 1978 telling the story of Kat Davis this female boxer in the US who wanted to be a boxer but

but the commissioning bodies wouldn't let her so you need a license to box and they wouldn't give that to her so she was fighting to get that, to overturn the law so that she would have a license to box. Kat Davis, she's one of your key characters, but also there's Lady Tiger. And you have five or six different pioneers. How did you get your cast together? How did you find these women? How did you decide who you were going to speak to? Yeah, that's a really good question. So after I saw this documentary, I was looking everywhere to really try and understand, you know, who's part of this movement. I found out that Kat Davis went on to become a chef in lodges in South Africa. So I made a list of 50 holiday lodges and started ringing. Do you know Kat Davis? Do you know Kat Davis? And I found someone that did and they put me in touch with her. Lady Tiger came across a website that had information about her and other boxers by a boxer who was part of that group. And so I came across the names, including Lady Tigers, and I just found her number on the white pages and gave her a call and she answered. I mean you don't talk much in the

documentary about what was happening at that time generally around the women's movement which was very active. Why? Yeah that's another good question. So from the beginning we sat down with Poppy Dixon the commissioner at Sky and we decided we didn't want to make a film that would be very preachy or didactic. We didn't want to make a feminist film as such, but rather really tell the stories of the women who didn't actually subscribe to any school of thought, but just wanted the freedom to do whatever they wanted to do. They didn't have banners saying, we subscribe to this type of feminism or that type of feminism, just the freedom to do what they wanted to do. What struck me about it was that actually these women are from, it's their sort of their backgrounds. I want you to explain a little bit about who these women are

and their backgrounds, because they're very working class and women of colour. And boxing for them was their escape, their way of getting out of their circumstances. So that felt very different to anything I've seen before. Absolutely. So, and that's the other thing, you know, the feminist movement at the time was very middle class. It was spearheaded by Gloria Steinem, whereas these women were Latino women, you know, single mothers, women that had just come out of a divorce. You know, Sue was a Mormon who had just been divorced. Kat was middle class,

but she was kind of unique in her case. But the fact that they came from these working class roots, coming out of struggle and trying to find something to do that they loved, meant that they were just going with that feeling rather than trying to subscribe to a philosophy as such. I mean you say the cat was middle class but her the expectations put on her was to grow up and become a southern belle. Exactly you know. And she faced a lot of homophobia didn't she when she finally discovered her identity. Exactly so even though she was middle class she also had her own own, you know, her own struggle. And just as you said, people wanted to portray her as this beautiful Southern belle, as opposed to girl of women's boxing in that sense. But she came out as gay to herself, but felt like she couldn't be out because it was very difficult at that time for gay people. But also, you know, Sal, her manager, told her, if you do come out, people are just going to discredit the sport.

People are going to use the fact that you're gay to say this is just a gay thing rather than a woman who might be gay or might be straight who just wants to be a boxer. So you've got the, I mean, how much... It's jaw-dropping, even though we know the amount of misogyny and the sorts of comments that were being made about women at the time in the 70s, just watching it, you know, your jaw just drops. Finding that footage, what was it like, you know, watching those interviews of people saying women shouldn't box? I was so shocked. At the same time, I feel like we still hear those sort of things today.

So on one hand, I was shocked. And on the other hand, I thought, God, you know, not much has changed. Although I do feel like we have moved. We have progressed a bit. A little bit. Yeah, we have. I mean, women weren't legally allowed to box and society just didn't want to see them boxing. But that's what this fight for them was about. It was about getting to be able to get the license to be able to legally fight. Exactly, professionally and make money off it, rather than just being something that they did in a street corner or, you know,

in a random gym. They wanted the license to become professional boxers and make money off it for that to be a career for a woman. I mean, it is just the most remarkable story because you see them fighting. And Tiger is the most interesting because she is just, the others don't really understand what they're doing. They sort of know that they want to be able to fight professionally. But Tiger really knows that she is fighting for women. Yeah. And that's why she's so incredible. And for me, I just gravitated towards Tiger

because I thought, you're not just an athlete, you're an activist. And all you're doing is just trying to push the agenda outside of the ring, whilst also being an incredible athlete yourself. So that's what made her more unique and kind of a real standout. And ahead of her time, I always tell her,

you're ahead of your time. Massively, yeah. She actually says, like you say, you featured her throughout the throughout the film and she says the history of women's boxing in the US has been erased had it been it definitely was willfully forgotten yeah I think it's you know when I was doing archive research with the archive producer B you'd find that sometimes you'd be watching a men's boxing match and you knew that there was a woman's card just before it. And at the point where it was the women's turn to box,

the camera would turn away or switch off because there just wasn't an audience or there wasn't an appetite. I mean, I think there was. Or that's what the men in control were saying exactly yeah yeah and you know another thing about the film is yes the establishment and a lot of men didn't want women boxing but there were men that also supported women including Lady Tiger's dad you know he's the one that would watch um Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier fighting and sort of get really enthusiastic and passionate about this. And it robbed off onto Tiger.

And then he encouraged her to sort of follow her dream. It's an incredibly powerful documentary. Even if you are not interested in boxing, it's such a wonderful story of women fighting for the right to fight and fighting to get out of their own situations. And I don't want to ruin the documentary because the last 10 minutes is incredibly powerful. But when you bring them together, oof, I wish you all the best of luck with it. Thank you so much. Thank you.

And you can see The Right to Fight on Sky Documentaries and now from the 16th of July. Georgian, real pleasure to meet you. Thanks to all of you. I'm sorry I didn't get to all your messages, but we will read them. Privately, I'll read them. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. We will be talking about wasps, bees, super volcanoes, mushrooms and... Sharks, ancient DNA and are we what we eat? And we'll be joined by Harry Hill, Chris Van Tilleken, Ben Wilbond, Rachel Parrish, Dr Nair and Professor Nair. They're very good. The new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. If you're in the UK, you can hear it all. Right now on BBC Sounds. Do you know what? We nearly did a really professional trailer, but then that last bit is a spoil

tip. I think we're going to get told off again. Yeah. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.