Woman's Hour - Having more children after 40, Gladiators, Nikki Hayley profile

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

The first female Radio 1 DJ Annie Nightingale has died at the age of 83. She was a huge trailblazer when it came to breaking down barriers for women in radio. To mark her death, we hear a clip from 2007 when Annie spoke to Martha Kearney on Woman’s Hour.Two female journalists who spent over a year in prison for covering the death of Mahsa Amini have been released on bail by Iranian authorities. Niloufar Hamedi and Elaheh Mohammadi are appealing against their jail sentences and will remain out of prison until a decision is made. Emma Barnett is joined by Women's Affairs Journalist for the BBC World Service Ferenak Amidi to hear more.From Kourtney Kardashian to Sienna Miller, there’s been lots of recent examples of women who have kids early on in life, and then try to conceive with a new partner in their 40s and beyond. Journalist Grace Ackroyd has written candidly about her experience of this – she talks to Emma about having children again at a new stage in life, and the challenges she’s faced.Gladiators is back on our TV screens. The BBC’s reboot of the super popular 90s series was launched this weekend, with new games added to the show. We’ll hear the first impressions from one of the original Gladiators – Diane Youdale, better known as ‘Jet’, who joins Emma to talk about her own experience and advice she would give to the new female gladiators.Ahead of the US election this year, one woman has begun to challenge Donald Trump in the polls for who will be the Republican representative. To find out more about Nikki Haley, Emma is joined by Dr Leslie Vinjamuri, Director of the US and Americas programme at Chatham House, and Julia Manchester, national political reporter at The Hill who is reporting live from this week’s Iowa caucuses. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Hope your weekend was a decent one. I found myself pushing a buggy around the extraordinary RAF Museum and the Wildlife Photography of the Year exhibition, separate things there, and made a mental note to return to both without children so I can actually read the information on the accompanying panels some point in the future. But talking of reading the fine print, 2024 is set to be a momentous year for elections all over the world time, more than half of the global population being taken in by that. I should say, many elections will not be free or fair, but today sees the US presidential race kick off for Republican candidates in the Iowa caucuses. Could there potentially be a female Republican presidential nominee, even a female president?

It's a long shot, according to most polls, but Donald Trump contender Nikki Haley is fighting hard. Who is she? What do you know about her? What are her prospects and her policies? Today, we'll tell you all we know about the Republican inspired by the last woman who tried to get the keys to the White House, one Hillary Clinton. Also, this is back. I'm taken right back to 1992.

I'm seven years old. I need a leotard and I want to go on the travelator. Gladiators return to our screens on Saturday evening courtesy of the BBC. and it's gone down well with the fans i've saved it i've not watched it yet i've had a little look but i want to watch the whole thing my great love from the original series was jet one of the original gladiators from the 90s and she's only going to be here on woman's hour let me give you her real name dianaell. I'll be talking to her a little bit later in the programme. My excitement, I hope, is coming to you through the microphone. And let me ask you this today.

Having children in your mid to late 40s as women, in some instances starting your second families, one of my guests is trying to do just that. She has three children from her previous relationship, her oldest being 22. Have you done that? Would you do that? Arlene Phillips is also going to be here, the choreographer and dancer and judge of us all on the dance floor. She had her second child in a different relationship,

aged 47. What is that like? Have you done it? Have you tried to do it and it hasn't worked? Perhaps you are some of the children from the first wave of your mother's families. What's that like if your mum then goes on to have a whole other family? It can be a very sensitive one, this, but it can also be something that has brought immense joy or has been a surprise to you in your late 40s, mid to late 40s. That seems to be where we're having this conversation. You can text me here on Women's Hour. The number is 84844.

The text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email me your take on this on anything else you hear in the programme through the Woman's Hour website. Or go for WhatsApp, leave me a voice note, 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges.

But I wanted to start today's edition of Woman's Hour with the unmistakable voice of the trailblazing DJ Annie Nightingale, who we learned just before the weekend died aged 83. The legendary Radio 1 DJ was not only the station's first female presenter, she remained the sole woman hosting on Radio 1 for 12 years after she joined in 1970. She also went on to be the station's longest serving presenter, only leaving the airwaves late last year. Annie was on Woman's Hour, as you can imagine, a few times over the years. Here she is speaking

to Martha Carney back in 2007, talking about battering down Radio 1's door. It was shocking. It really was. I mean, they say, no, we don't want any women at Radio 1 because Radio 1 is for... DJs are husband substitutes. I couldn't believe it. I remember getting a laugh at Cambridge Union saying that. I said, yeah, you may laugh, but that was the case at the time. So there were lots of doors to be broken down

and I couldn't understand why radio had this mystique around it that women couldn't do it. Although my first experience in radio was doing Woman's Hour. Was it? I was doing a report, a tiny report from a tiny studio in Brighton. What was it on? It was about children. It was quite a sad story.

It was quite children. You know, it was a really quite a sad story. But, you know, yeah, it was quite a serious matter. I know you won this award, Caner of the Year. I think it clearly suggests you're a party animal. You still keep it going. Well, yeah, I mean, I'll just probably take more time off afterwards. Pace yourself is the answer, you know. It's not that thing about, oh, God, down with the kids. It's not really.

I'm actually watching to help people along if possible. Because down with the kids is quite a hard act to pull off, isn't it? Down with the kids is quite a hard act to pull off. I think it's an awful thing. I don't think you should try and get undignified and stuff like that. But obviously I know people who go, oh, I couldn't go to a club, I'd feel really embarrassed and I'd feel really out of place and say, look, just say you're there for research purposes

and then it's fine, you know. Important advice from former Caner of the Year there, who, as we just heard, her first radio gig being here on Woman's Hour, which I did not know. Annie Nightingale, who has died aged 83, speaking to Martha Carney back in 2007, a true trailblazer. There aren't many you can say that about,

but she really did pave the way for it to be totally normal to have women presenting music radio here on the BBC, something that did seem completely standard to me by the time I started listening to my small FM radio breakfast in 1990. Thank you, Annie Nightingale, from all of us. A heartfelt thanks. Now, two female journalists who spent over a year in prison for covering the death of Mahsa Amini

have been released on bail by Iranian authorities. Niloufar Hamadi, who broke the news of Mahsa Amini's death, and Elahe Mohammadi, who reported on her funeral, are appealing against their jail sentences and will remain out of prison until a decision is made. They're also banned from leaving the country. Mahsa Zameeni died in police custody in September 2022 after being detained by Iran's Morality Police

for allegedly violating strict hijab rules. Farhanak Amidi joins me on the line, women's affairs journalist, friend of the programme for the BBC World Service. Farinak, just a development as we're coming on air that we hear that a case has been opened against these journalists today at the Revolutionary Court, the same court that has sentenced these women for taking off their hijab in public upon their release, and I should say release in quotation marks. Tell us more from prison.

Yes, Emma, this is absolutely insane because it's even it's less than 24 hours that these women have been released on very heavy bails. 200,000 US dollars, that's over 150,000 pounds, which is a lot in Iran. And now the judiciary has announced publicly that they have opened a new case against them in the revolutionary court for taking off their hijab in public. Because upon their release, when they were coming out of the prison and their whole families and friends and a lot of journalists were welcoming them into the free world, basically. They took videos and the videos were published on social media. And you can see that both of them are not wearing hijab or their hijab. One of them, their hijab also falls.

And there are a lot of like women around them without hijab. So it just shows that this civil disobedience that women are, you know, doing every single day in Iran, what it actually means. It is a crime, you know. A lot of people, when they saw that video, they might forget, they might not know the significance of these two women exiting the notorious Evin prison without hijab. But now with this new case against them in the Revolutionary Court, it just shows how significant it is that every single day women are choosing to take off their hijab and walk down the streets of Iran. And when we see headlines saying these two women who brought the news of this story that then got so many women to their feet, to take to the streets in Iran, to take that action that you've described.

When we see the headlines that they've been freed, that is something that we can't read in that way, can we? No, they haven't been freed. They have been released on bail until the court, the appeal court, comes to a decision. But of course, we saw this new case against them. What we see in Iran is that many times we have seen that political activists or journalists are released on bail, but immediately after they are put back in prison. Recently, it was Tumar Salehi, who was a rapper and also a political activist. He was arrested around a year ago,

and he was released on bail. And then just a few days later, he was re-arrested again, and he's in prison right now. Sepideh Gholian, another female political activist, she was released from prison, and she came out of prison and started chanting against the regime. And a few hours later, she was put back in prison, and she's still in prison. With all of that, and that caveat there about what it means to be out but not free, I imagine there has been a strong reaction to seeing these two women, especially from women across Iran. It was a joyous moment. Everybody was celebrating on social media. People were just saying congratulations, congratulations, not only to their families and to the basically to all the other journalists who've been watching their case

and following it very closely, but to the whole society, because to be honest, essentially, those protests, the Women, Life, Freedom protests wouldn't exist without these two journalists, because they were the journalists that dared to break the news of the death of Mahsa Amini and cover the funeral, where for the first time, the chants of women, life, freedom were heard. And Elham Mohammadi reported it and it spread like wildfire across Iran. So they are held dearly by Iranians inside and outside of Iran. How is it today for women in Iran? The situation is not good, Emma. The state is trying to clamp down on women who are not wearing the hijab. But

it is also just a very confusing time in Iran, because we have elections, general elections, parliamentary elections coming up in March. And, you know, the turnout for elections in Iran has been very, very low in the past few years. And the state wants to rally people to come actually and vote. So they recently, just the other day, the Guardian Council announced that there's no legal ban on women without hijab to come and vote. And then today they file a case against these two journalists for not wearing the hijab. So the public are just asking a question like, make up your mind. Is not wearing hijab a crime or isn't it a crime? Women are being arrested on the streets, but then they can go and vote without hijab in different voting stations. It is just a very confusing thing.

It just shows that the legitimacy of the state, basically the state doesn't have legitimacy and is trying to get people to come and vote, but people are also not buying the propaganda as well. Farinaka Meedy, always good to talk to you. Women's Affairs journalist for BBC World Service, putting us in the very latest picture about those two female journalists to whom many women in Iran feel they owe a great deal and sparked those protests with the knowledge that

they brought to the world. I have to say, I asked you about whether having more children in your 40s, mid to late, if you could, would you, have you? What's that been like? Often it's a second family for a lot of people. It is a topic that's been receiving a lot of attention recently and you're getting in touch about this in your droves now. The celebrity press, if we look there, has focused on Sienna Miller, who's just given birth at 42, and Kourtney Kardashian, who gave birth in December at the age of 44.

Both women received some backlash. They have children already with former partners but then wanted to have more children with their current boyfriends and start second families well just walked into the studio the times journalist grace akroyd who's in this situation herself she'll tell us a bit more in a moment but a mother of three from a previous relationship and her and her partner have decided to have a baby and i hope you don't mind me saying grace you're 46 i believe that's correct that's it and then also joining us on the line choreographer and former Strictly Come Dancing judge and many other things in between and a wonderful person Dame Arlene Phillips who had her second daughter

when she was 47 good morning good morning lovely to have you with us Arlene and many people getting in touch with us talking about this and one saying, I had my daughter at 44 after a sterilisation reversal. I already had three children. I'm now 60 with a 16-year-old daughter and I'm really enjoying this. Chris Dawson talks about having five children that COVID made them realise, this family, that we love spending time with our children. So we decided for another and we have our youngest son born just after I turned 44. The older ones thought we were mad, but we would not change him for the world. His grown up brothers and sisters love him dearly. And so it carries on. Grace,

let me start with you. You've written about your situation in The Times. What is it? Tell us some more. Well, I am 46 and I've been trying to have a baby with my partner for the last two years. And it's been really interesting. I hate the word journey, but it has been an interesting journey because I suppose the idea that we got to that stage that we wanted to actually have a baby was quite interesting because, you know, we discussed it a lot at the beginning of our relationship. And there is, you know, a 16 year age gap as well. So between you and him. Between me and him, yeah. So it was something we probably had to discuss earlier

than many couples would because I realised that, you know, if we were going to do this, then we kind of had to get going at some point and we started very late for me. I was 44. So, you know, we're told the chances at that stage of being able to conceive naturally are really low.

So, yeah. So I've always written about things that I of being able to conceive naturally are really low so um yeah so I've always written about things that I kind of want to make sense of or just need to know more about and have the opportunity to talk to other people who are doing something similar or who have done something similar and you have you been having assisted conception how's that been so we haven't um up until now um we've been trying naturally. I did get pregnant last year. Sadly, that ended in miscarriage. And so questions I'm sure you you've been asked since writing the piece and also in your own life is you know for for other for people listening they might think how or why can you want to do this again yeah oh absolutely I mean you know even my own mother who has five children was like are you sure um and now she's one of the most kind of enthusiastic and supportive people.

Yeah, I mean, I think I would probably feel the same. You know, if I was looking in my early 20s when I had my daughter, I probably looked at people in their mid-40s and thought, are you sure? You know, are you sure this is what you want to do? But I think, you know, I'm here now. You know, this is what I want. This is what my partner wants. We've got a lot of support around us. And, you know, I can see why people think, you know, you might, you must be crazy. Is that some of the response?

Not from the people that matter to me. And I think a lot of the response I've had from people who've commented who don't know me, it's actually not to do with the kind of, you know, you know, God, it's going to be so exhausting. It's actually more judgmental than that. It's like, you're way too old, or, you know, are you sure you, you know, your partner it's going to be so exhausting. It's actually more judgmental than that. It's like you're way too old or, you know, are you sure your partner's not going to run off with somebody younger? It's that kind of response. It's a lot more misogynistic. And just on that and the thought of doing it again at this age,

do you have any fears about that, about being older? No, actually, I don't. I really don't. I've never really done things in the traditional way. I mean, I have my daughter when nobody else was having children in my French, you know, friendship group. I didn't, oh my goodness, I didn't even use the word friendship group then. But I think I've never really done things the traditional way. And I feel really quite realistic about how exhausted I'm going to feel because I know that motherhood is exhausting and

it doesn't end, you know, when your baby starts talking and going to nursery. I mean, there are other types of exhaustion and responsibilities involved in bringing up, you know, teenagers and also my adult daughter, you know, she needs a different kind of care. So I think I'm realistic that it's going to be exhausting. I have a really great set of women in my life, you know, from my mom to my mother-in-law to my, well, not mother-in-law, but my boyfriend's partner to my sister to my aunts. All really strong women who've done motherhood in lots of different ways and lots of different stages. And what do your children think of it? Well, I wouldn't want to answer for them. My sons aren't that interested, to be honest, and that's fine with me in terms of, you know, I don't want to kind of go

into the ins and outs of what we're doing, but they know the kind of top line stuff and they're pretty fine with it. My daughter is so excited. I mean, it's great. I think she can really be on board with this. And it's just really sweet. You know, she just wants to be a big part of it. She's, yeah, she's really happy about it. Dame Arlene Phillips, good morning again. Let me bring you in at this point. Was your pregnancy aged 47, I believe. Was that a surprise or was that planned? first four months um that it was the menopause um I had no idea I was pregnant um I just thought you know my periods stopped and uh I'm ready for a sort of uh the next stage of my life and then I realized when I started throwing up every morning this wasn't just the menopause at all I was obviously pregnant and yeah I was absolutely over the moon I felt like this was a gift this was not

something I'd ever expected in my life and and my daughter who's now 33, has been a joy and a pleasure and I wouldn't have chosen to do anything else. And you found yourself, though, in a situation again, I know you had your first daughter at 36. You find yourself in this time, you know, more than 10 years on. Did you have concerns about how you would be received how it would be for you some of the questions I was just asking Grace and the only thing I was afraid of was when I was taking her to nursery school I thought everyone's going to think I'm

the grandma um so I was very nervous about that I was was also told that, you know, the chance of a birth of a healthy child wasn't guaranteed. But then it never is for anyone. And I kind of ignored the geriatric mother a baby your age um and all of the warnings I've got and uh surprise from Pete for people but I never for a second doubted it I knew that this has happened I'd always felt anyway I was told when I was 36 I was a geriatric mother I was told when I was 47 I could very well likely be unable to bond with my child as quickly as other mothers do of a younger age all of the things that hurt and upset me I just knew that that it was actually this baby was actually, this baby was good fortune. This baby wasn't meant to happen. I didn't imagine getting pregnant.

This was with my second big relationship. And I just, I always felt blessed. I wouldn't listen to people. Age, I would say, is a number. But there is a strong response um on this subject as grace was just alluding to and and also we see it with people that you know famous people who we can easily dehumanize with what people like to say and often what women like to say yes yeah i mean i can't say it hasn't been difficult from other people's perspective um you know i mean i went

i had a some tests the other day in the hospital and the nurse who was looking after me kept saying um i said there was one date that i couldn't do um because i was working and he and not he said working but you're 80 what are you doing i said I go to work every day I haven't stopped working he said but you're 80 how can you do that and I was thinking well I may be 80 chronologically uh but inside if I feel fit and healthy that's my accepted age i can get on with things and i feel like that as a mother as a mother i'm going to make it work and i'm not listening to the naysayers i'm not listening i'm listening to myself my own heart my own body um well it sounds like it sounds like good advice to to grace if potentially you get to that place oh definitely thanks yeah it's really great

it truly is i i encourage anyone and everyone that that has doubts and particularly mothers who are working even though much younger than i who doubt you know uh even uh you know they're in their 40s you know should i i'm working i just say have the courage of your own convictions and do what's right for you dame arlene phillips we'll leave it there with you thank you so much for that thank you let me let me come back to you grace just because there's a message here which i think is really interesting to read to you from julie yeah um my mother had another child when i was 24 i had my first child 18 months later, and I felt my child missed out on a grandmother

due to the fact she was more interested in her own new child. I'm not saying this is similar to you, but it's an interesting thing to listen to because we were asking from both perspectives. I felt not having maternal support when having my first child greatly contributed to developing postnatal depression, and I don't have the same bond with my youngest sibling as I do with my other siblings due to the large age gap I feel more like an auntie than a sibling to them that's from Julie who's listening now you know not everything there you need to answer too but there are a couple of points in

there I wondered if you had a thought yeah I mean yeah I'm sorry that that that was how you feel or felt at the time and still feel and you, you know, it's hard, isn't it? The family dynamics are really hard and they change. And that's what I would say is, I mean, I come from a really massive family. So I feel, you know, I was an aunt at six. My mom was a great grandmother at 56 I think I mean you know we all had babies young and and I do think sometimes yeah god it would have been nice to have had my mum all to herself and to have been a grandmother to to my children but she was doing so much and in a way it was kind of a gift because we all kind of help each other out now so yeah I suppose these set ideas of who people should be in the family I mean yes I if my daughter were to go on to have a child in two or three years, I might not be the grandmother she might want. But I hope that I could give her what, you know, everything that she needed at that time. I mean, it's really hard. Yeah, I, I can't really answer anything more than that. No, no, no. But it's interesting to have that reflection as well about, I suppose, age gaps between siblings. Sure. And for you now, you mentioned it just as we were starting to go through your story.

To come back to this in next steps, you are using an egg donor. Yeah, we're using an egg donor. So we found an egg donor fairly quickly through an agency who kind of worked with a lot of clinics. So you choose your clinic and you're then, know given an egg donor matcher and we were told it could take up to six months. My partner Job is actually mixed race so if that were the other way round and I were the mixed race one we would probably find that it took longer than that because there's kind of a shortage of egg donors anyway but minority ethnic egg donors are kind of in real short supply. But we were really surprised when we got a call within three weeks

to say we found you a potential match. I think it probably helped that we didn't have like a long list of criteria, like, you know, university educated, you know, five foot nine, blue eyes. I mean, we didn't really care that much. We just wanted to, you know, find a donor who sounded lovely. And I think most people who are donors who are doing that for somebody else with very little kind of compensation, really, for their time, they have to be kind of altruistic in some way. So yeah, we feel really lucky. I mean, so are you preparing for? Yes. So at this stage our egg

donor as far as we know has started medication we can't know the exact dates that can start but she's going for a scan on Tuesday and then within the next two weeks if everything goes well she will have her eggs collected and then embryos will be created with my partner's sperm and they'll be frozen and then I start my kind of medication to get my uterine lining ready and then the embryo transfer will take place. Has that taken an adjustment for you to get to this point? I just feel really excited. I think there's something about the idea that it's not my body's kind of responsibility anymore to do it all has been quite a release because I think two years of trying and I wouldn't say failing because I don't like that word but for something

not to happen and then to be given that chance of pregnancy and then for that to have been lost felt really sad so it's kind of been a really exciting time for us both I think to feel that you know we're making progress now and it's not all on me. And have you got a point at which you will stop if this isn't? Yeah, we've talked about it. There isn't a point at the moment. I think when the money runs out, when maybe, you know, if we only got one embryo and that didn't work, and then we'd really have to think, do we want to go through the whole process of finding an egg donor donor i was just about so i mean finding an egg donor the whole side of it can be very expensive it's not an option no and it's a real privilege to be able to have got to

this stage anyway i realize how privileged we are to have been able to have even had that as an option because many people probably would like to do that maybe and just don't have that in their means you know to be able to do that so So focusing on that at the moment and nothing else. Exactly. Trying to just like take the next bit of thread, really, and see where it takes us. And for those perhaps listening, you mentioned those who, you know, been in touch, you say, with misogynistic remarks. Is there anything you want to say to them that perhaps could change their mind? Not that that's necessarily your focus, but... To the people who are making misogynistic.

Yeah, to the people who have said that, who perhaps hear that, you know, a woman, as we just heard Arlene, 47, you at 46, are doing this, you know, you're aware men carry on doing this for a lot longer. You obviously need... Women often need a lot more help at this point. That's the main difference. Yeah, it's total double standards most of the time, to be honest.

I mean, the things that women get, like, you know, criticized for are often what men get kind of praised for. And, you know, fathers, you know, being fathers in their 80s and suddenly men are being praised for their virility. And I just think, God, you've got too much time on your hands a lot of the time, these people who are criticizing all the time. And if people have a desire and, you know, women, women's desire is often just so, like, stamped upon. And I just think if you're a woman, I'd say more to the women who are trying to do things, just get on with it. Try and just not listen to the people who are kind of criticising you.

The people that matter are the people who, you know, you need to get their support. Grace Ackroyd, thank you very much for talking to us. Thanks so much. Messages here. I had two children in my 40s, 41 and 43. I loved it. It's kept me active. However, puberty and menopause coinciding can be tricky. That's Sully listening. Another one here, my mother had me in 1948 and my brother in 1950 and then a gap and my sister in 61 and my second

brother in 63. As a result, I had experience of babies when I was in my early teens and subsequently I had no desire to have my own, says Angela. But another one here, I married late. I'm an older mother who had two boys in 42 and 46, almost 46 naturally. Fantastic pregnancies compared to younger colleagues. I worked full time until the final month

and I'm so grateful for having the boys in my life as I lost my husband four years ago and they keep me going. I'm now 56 and have an abundance of energy, says Rahana listening in Glasgow. Good morning. Thank you so much. devastated she'd decided I was not a member of her new family and I'll never get over a hurt or betrayal. I'll come back to some of those messages if I can but thank you so much for sharing with us this morning some of your experiences either being in this position or perhaps being on the receiving end as it were of a family member going again. Let me tell you or rather ask you did you spend some time this weekend and potentially watch it live

on Saturday night? Did you watch this? The 90s Saturday Night Classic is back. A brand new series of gladiators launched this weekend on the BBC. I'm sure many of you remember it, but if not, the show is about athletic women and men called Gladiators competing against a set of contenders from the public in a series of games that test their speed and strength, all watched by referees

and a noisy audience. The series was so popular, it was a weekend TV staple for many families, it certainly was in my house, but you were in it. And Jet, that's who I'm talking about. Gladiator royalty, Diane Udell Gilbert, one of the biggest stars of the original series from 1992.

Good morning. How are you? Welcome to the programme. Good morning, Emma. Good morning, everybody. Fantastic to have you here. I can't believe I'm talking to you. Honestly, I think I had a little exercise book with you on it.

That's so ironic because I'm such a fan of yourself and Women's Hour and Four and everything. So thank you. Beautiful love it. We're going to take that. But you are the best person, if I can start with this, to ask what you thought on Saturday evening. I know you've had a look. Yeah, I was, I was, I'd been kind of given a heads up on how accurate it would have been to the original. And I felt so happy about that because I'm a great believer if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And they did us all so proud.

It was very like the original with a few tweaks. And of course course new superhuman gladiators and very brave contenders. Yes, they are, aren't they? Just get up there and do it. Let's remind our listeners how you were introduced in the opening show. Let's have a listen. And there's Vivienne, who after

a 20 second start will be pursued by Jets. She looks ready for takeoff. A former national gymnast squad member with those looks and those stats, she's Gladiator's very own Wonder Woman. That's good, isn't it?

Has that followed you around? It's a lovely memory, thank you. John Sacks there, of course. That's fantastic. Yeah. I mean, I look at our new Gladiators and I'm like, well, wow. For me, they're a cut above certainly what I i was i can't speak to the other girls uh with functional fitness

and nutrition and sports science the way it is today uh you know your contenders are going to come in so elite your gladiators literally have to be superhuman and they are which is great but your background was gymnastics yeah i was a gymnast from the age of 7 to 14 in the North East Zone GB squad, reigning North England junior champion. And then I took up the world of dance and choreography. To be a choreographer, and I had Arlene on earlier, I'm like, I'm such a fan because I didn't want to be a performer. I'm more of a creative backstage person, always have been,

but sort of got pushed to the front. So I retained all my gymnastic and athletic ability by the time at 22 they were selecting for the original Gladiator team. And how did it feel being on the show? I've described the joy of seeing you, but what was it like to do it? I was so nervous all the time I mean people say I'm flicking her hair around and jet smiling and doing the flips it was pure anxiety I didn't want to stand still because I was afraid the cameras would just focus in on my lumpy bumpy

bits in the days coming out of the late 80s into the early 90s I was always a bit body conscious back then I think now we just embrace all female shapes and sizes and builds and functionality so I just kept moving so I'd freak out really if the camera was on me flick my hair do spin a pirouette you name it leg lifts the lot uh felt like just keep moving it seemed to pay off for me well no and i mean the other thing though it was the 80s and 90s as you say the description of you often could be of as a pin-up girl and it was very sexualized at the same time as it being you know younger girls like myself looking up to you and your colleagues you know there were the two things going on at the same time weren't that yeah um i i still to this day i i mean i can i'm objective more about it now and i can see with our

new girls that that kind of objectification would have been part of it but i think because we were functional athletes i felt quite good about the identity of being in two tiny bits of lycra and being a functionally fit and and very good I'd like to say, athlete in the arena because not everybody takes to the arena. The events are very extreme. The only one bit I felt uncomfortable about was when then the contenders would win a Jeep each, a big car, which was situated at the end of the arena. And they wanted to do a swooping kind of grab shot um or whatever they call it um of the

girls sort of semi-draped over this jeep and without our tracksuits on and i said absolutely not that's the only time i felt it was just cheese amongst cheese 1970s girls on cars i said we're athletes we're gladiators do not do that us. So that was the only time really that I felt we were treated differently. Yeah, thank you. Well, I also love the fact you're like, we're gladiators. Just, you know, like job description. That's the... Totally.

If LinkedIn had existed at the time, you would have had the best line below your name. Gladiator, full stop. I find myself sometimes saying, oh, when I gladiated, did I just say that? You know, who says that in this day and age? Do people come up to you a lot still? Because you do, if I could just describe you,

you do still have your wonderful hair. You do look, you know, very similar. Sometimes people can look very different from something they did when they were much younger. Do people recognise you and come and talk to you? Yeah, I think they do. I mean, I keep my hair long because it keeps my head company and it's warm in winter.

And I've always loved just my hair just keeping me warm. And, yeah, I do. Particularly if I've got makeup on, but I do wear a cap a lot. I'm not out there for people to walk up to me. I find it a little bit intrusive. But it was such a positive and fond, you know, a set of fond memories for a show, for a family show. So it can only be a good thing. But yeah, I do keep my head down.

The original gladiators were only paid, I believe, £750 an episode. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, that was our original wage per show. And were you all equal, men and women? Well, I'd like to think so, yes. I know that one of the boys, a very prominent one of our boys, was also a businessman. I think he tried to push eventually for there to be some changes, i.e. the most popular ones get something more. And I remember taking a step back at the time saying well actually no we're all doing the same job i don't know if getting paid in a different

way because you're more popular would sit well with me being a team member i was one of six girls doing the same job and i think the end at the end of the day though how we could get a sort of discrepancy in our pay was the PAs and the TV and the presenting and all the things that came after us some of us would be selected to do more things so it it did have some there was some difference there was some levity in it all in the end but not for the show I would have been very uncomfortable with that and we should say for those who are thinking what what happened to you, Jack? Where did you go? You got an injury. Is that right? I did. I was at the live event at Wembley in 1996.

So it wasn't televised. It was filmed on a little high eight for prosperity, but it was in front of a live audience. And I came down the pyramid with an incredible contender and I heard a snap and I saw my bottom there beside my head. I'm sort of reaching up towards my forehead, a bit sort of 1976 Olga Korbut in the World Games on the beam with her bum over her head. And I thought, that's not a good look. And, oh, I now can't move. But fortunately, when they slid me onto a stretcher and into the ambulance, I could move my fingers,

I could move my toes. I thought, well, it isn't a serious spinal injury. I'm okay. But that was too close for comfort for me. That was my exit from the arena. It was a shame. I think because we didn't see it at the time, people were like, where has she gone?

Where is she? Because just to remind us, what was your speciality? What was your thing that the public would compete against? There was three things. I loved Powerball because it was one of the only team events that we could play at the time, and Gauntlet, The Wall, and of course Hang Tough, which I loved. Hang Tough. I always thought I could do that.

And then, you know, I hung once off some playground bars, and that was not the tough area of my body, it seemed. We've got this lovely message from Rebecca, which says, Rebecca in New Newbury says I just want to mirror what you said regards to jet and gladiators what a superstar she's the reason I started to look after my body and going to the gym oh thank you oh that's wonderful to hear really lovely to hear thank you Becky are you still fit not not as much no um I've sort of had a bit of ill health in the last couple of years. But as spring comes around, my big love is being outside. I love walking.

And I'll start running again and doing my strength and conditioning. So I still teach a little bit of Pilates and Zumba. I like dancing still, if you can call it that. But I love teaching. So, yeah, I keep my hand in, but like I used to be that and but that's not and that's not what you've had another career haven't you after being a gladiator yeah um I'd saved up enough money when I was sat recovering from my accident I thought what am I going to do I'd been asked to do a lot of presenting and I thought out of all due respect for great presenters

you really ought to have some journalistic training so I thought I'd either go and do journalism to carry on presenting or I'll do the other side of it, which is psychotherapy, which I'd always wanted to do since being a child, how the mind works, who we are, when we are, and why we are. And I thought, well, actually, they're both the same thing. One's just very public, and one's very private. And I thought at the time, actually, psychotherapy is just that little bit more in my heart. I'll do that my heart I'll do that and I'll do that first so that's what I did and I've been a psychotherapist and a lecturer and trainer in psychotherapy and counselling skills to tomorrow's therapists for the last nearly 30 years yeah

amazing I think I think you know you've got to be very professionalized I imagine in some ways when you first meet your therapist if I walked in and it was it was jet from gladiators i might have a tiny squeal and not be that professional has that happened yeah it has uh you go to the placement you go on a i ended up on a four or five year placement because the nhs wanted to keep hold of me it was a one day volunteer thing but that's what you do on your placement when you're doing your finals and a final training and a very senior sort of a I think physiotherapist came in she peered over her glasses at me she went I know who you are and it did actually change the dynamic she said I can't I can't this is this is it had changed the foundation of our working relationship together and I just thought I really I took it to supervision and I thought it's in the room I I

can't get away with that but then I use it I say well I thought it's in the room. I can't get away with that. But then I use it. I say, well, what does it mean to you for you to know that I did that all those years ago? And I can use it as part of the process because it can say a lot about my client. Yeah, I mean, you could do a flip sort of to to break the ice, I suppose, or just anything in the room. I'm taking this too far now. You're a professional. I'm proving myself not to be. I'm just excited to talk to you. Diane Udell Gilbert,

aka Jet from the original series of Gladiators. What a joy to start this Monday morning with you. Thank you so much. And, you know, there had been another attempt at making Gladiators, we should say, but it didn't land in quite the same way as this one seems to have done so far.

So we're happy to hear that you're happy. You can catch up on that first episode. It's on BBC iPlayer now and back again next weekend. I'm looking forward to watching the whole thing. Jet has got a message here as well, just to say, I thought I was following you in the 1996 London Marathon. And when I thought I caught you up with another lady, you indirectly got round me in the 26 miles.

I think you were running faster. Have you run a marathon? Is this person correct? No, no. It must have been a looky likey. Case of mistaken identity. OK, well, there you go. I always like to hear from our listeners and try and try and get the facts. Jet, all the best to you. Thank you for that. Now, we're talking earlier about a big year for elections, not just here on the other side of the Atlantic, where the Republican contest to select its presidential candidates starts today in Ernestine with the Iowa caucuses. And there's elections all around the world this year. It's a big time to be a member of the voting public. But as I said earlier, not all elections will be free and fair. But going back to the US, while the headlines may have been dominated by Donald Trump, one woman, Nikki Haley, has begun

to challenge him a little bit. I mean, there's one particular poll which shows perhaps this is a recent CNN poll. Maybe she's cut his lead in New Hampshire, one of the key battleground states. But let's figure out what's going on with somebody who would like to be, I'm sure, the first female president of the United States. She is the former governor of South Carolina and the US ambassador, former US ambassador to the UN, a role she held under Trump. What are her prospects? Who is she? Dr. Leslie Vingimori,

director of the US and America's program at Chatham House and Julia Manchester's on the line, national political reporter at The Hill, who's reporting live from today's Iowa caucuses. Leslie, if I could start with you. I've talked about Iowa caucuses. Just tell if I could start with you. I've talked about Iowa caucuses. Just tell us what they are. Why do we call them that? Well, caucuses, it's the beginning of the season in which the Republicans and also the Democrats

will choose their nominee to run in that November election. The caucuses are different from a primary. You have to turn up. Those people voting will turn up at 7 p.m. in Iowa. They have to vote in person in a primary. You don't have to turn up in the same way. But Iowa is important. It comes first. It's a small state, but it carries. It punches way above its weight in this process. Because it comes first, it's more conservative than states that come subsequently. So who wins in Iowa doesn't necessarily go on to get that nomination. But it is very important. It signals the start of something that's very significant. Will Trump be the person on the ballot? This is the first time that voters have actually turned up and seen his name as an alternative since 2020, even though, of course, he's been very visible and seen to be the leader of the Republican Party. Let me bring you in at this point, Julia. What do we know about Nikki Haley's background and her motivation to get into politics? We should say that turning up in person could also be quite tough because it's very, very cold in Iowa. Hello. Yeah, I'm not sure what it is in Celsius,

but it's in the negatives for us here in Fahrenheit. So it's very cold. Nikki Haley has been a prominent U.S. political figure really going back over 10 years. She was a former member of the South Carolina House of Representatives. Then she was notably the governor of South Carolina. She gained a lot of national recognition after there was a horrific, tragic shooting at an African-American church in South Carolina, and she called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the South Carolina Statehouse. In the following year, she gave the Republican response to former President Obama's State of the Union address that's normally reserved the response for rising stars within the party. And, you know, on that note, she is someone

who for a while, I think, you know, prior to the 2016 elections, was seen as a future face of the Republican Party. She's the second Indian American governor in the U.S., the first female Indian American governor in the United States. She would be the first Indian American woman and first woman, obviously, to be president of the United States. So she's a woman of color. And that's, you know, two demographics that Republicans have historically really struggled with. And what's interesting to observe here in Iowa is that you really start to see the support among suburban women here, you know, more moderate Republican voters for Nikki Haley. And that's exactly the support she's going after, because we do know that polls show in a head-to-head matchup, she beats President

Biden. And she also, there was a recent Des Moines Register NBC News poll that came out just a few days ago here in Iowa, the gold standard of Iowa polls, showing that a number of her supporters say they would, you know, also vote for President Biden, or they also support President Biden. So there's definitely some crossover there, but she is seen as sort of a future face of the GOP. It's a great primer there. Thank you for that. Leslie, to come back to you, what do we know about policy? Well, you know, foreign policy, we're sitting here in the UK and Europe,

she really does present a clear alternative, a very distinct set of policies from what Donald Trump would pursue were he to be in the White House. She's an internationalist. She believes very much in using America's power as a force for good in the world. She puts values and moral leadership right up front. She's made it very clear that she thinks the United States should stand strong with Israel, that it should stand strong with Ukraine. That's a key point of differentiating her from the former president. She doesn't have that relationship or that fondness for Vladimir Putin that always mystified us about Donald Trump. But it really is a,

it would be a clear turn towards internationalism and not the neo-isolationism that Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy represent in the Republican Party. And she is, to speak to the earlier comment, she really is trying to broaden the base of the Republican Party, make it more moderate with, you know, relevant to those who are have pushed the party even

further right. She's clearly conservative. The point about her being Indian American is very interesting. Of course, she's a person of color. But I think I read Nikki Haley as being very much an all American candidate. She's conservative. She has an immigrant story. She holds on to that very clearly. Her parents came from story. She holds on to that very clearly. Her parents came from India. And they came, you know, as she makes the point, legally. And she this is a woman who has a very tough position on immigration. She certainly played that up. It's a you know, it's a top level issue for Americans today, both in the Republican Party and amongst Democrats, because there's a real concern at the

southern border. And there's nothing about her that's soft when it comes to immigration. She differentiates between people like her parents, her family that came legally and made it, and those who are trying to come in illegally. And she talks about sending them back. Julia, another issue in American politics, and certainly in an election year that comes up in a way that's quite different to the UK, and especially in light of the big change in America recently is abortion. Is this something that she she talks about? Does she go towards the fact that she is a woman? How does that come out when when Nikki Haley is talking? She walks a fine line on the issue and she's very pragmatic on the issue politically. You know, there are a lot of Republican lawmakers, politicians who have come out in support of the overturning of Roe versus Wade.

That being said, though, after that happened in 2022, you saw the 2022 midterm elections and Republicans lost on the issue. You saw Democrats really bringing that into their campaign messaging and it galvanized the base. It galvanized women voters. It galvanized that suburban female bloc we talk about so much in the United States. It's a very reliable voting bloc and it's a swing voting bloc. So that issue itself has sort of become, you know, obviously a major issue in the United States. It always has. But despite Roe v. Wade being overturned and Republicans initially thinking that issue of abortion would go away since at the national level, since it's been essentially kicked back to the states. Nikki Haley has been pragmatic about it, saying, yes, she is pro-life. But at the same time, she says we can't reach, it's impossible really to reach a national consensus on abortion in the form of a national abortion ban at the federal level, talking about the divide in the Senate and the House between Republicans and Democrats. So she's approached this issue very, very carefully. She talks and

writes about being pro-life and some of the background as to why she's pro-life. She talks about her husband, Michael, and how he was adopted. So she brings that into the narrative. But she's trying to approach this issue very carefully, because she knows that politically over the past few years, this has been a losing issue for Republicans. I suppose building on that point, and you know, to our listeners who might then be unclear as to whether this will change or not, if there were a female president, there are many ifs here because we're still on. You mentioned the other candidates for to become the Republican candidate. She's by far not the only person in the field.

But do you think she talks about being a woman? Do you think she has that as part of her identity, Leslie? Or does she try and ignore it? Because we know she's also said she's got respect for Hillary Clinton. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that she ignores it. But I don't think that she's campaigning, you know, with that as the number one issue. I think she really is trying to campaign as an alternative. If anything, she's putting the priority on her age. She's a younger candidate than either of the two leading candidates on both sides of the aisle. And that, as we know, with President Biden has become a very significant issue.

A younger candidate, a more moderate candidate than President Trump. And remember that, you know, especially in Iowa, the evangelicals have lined up with Donald Trump. So being more pragmatic on a number of issues, including the question of a woman's right to choose is very important. But I don't see the woman issue being the top of the top line issue for her, per se. And there are some who say that perhaps there's some commentators who say maybe the plan all along was to become the vice president. If a Republican got in and that all of this at the moment is, you know, as it is, is posturing. What do you make of that, Julia? Well, Nikki Haley has said from the offset that she does not play for second.

She's in this to win this. But you do hear that commentary quite a bit. And you've heard that commentary ever since she got into the race. You know, her trajectory in this campaign has been sort of, I liken it to the tortoise and the hare. You've seen, you know, some of the other candidates like Ramaswamy have these, you know, big moments, these, you know, shoot up maybe a little bit in the polls, have these sugar rushes, if you will. But Nikki Haley has very slowly risen.

She was the second candidate after Donald Trump to get in earlier this year in February. And she really started to gain traction, I think, when people started tuning into those presidential debates. She's a very good debater. You know, one Republican source told me that she lit Vivek Ramaswamy up whenever he tried to attack her on the stage. So she got a lot of publicity for that. A lot of Republican donors who are anti-Trump have turned to her as that alternative. And, you know, when talking to when looking at the polls, really, you know, for a while she was not polling well. She was well behind DeSantis and was not getting a lot of traction. But

she has increasingly been seen as this alternative, not only in New Hampshire, she's very much closed the gap with Donald Trump in New Hampshire, or is on her way to or could be. But here in Iowa, a recent poll came out showing Donald Trump leading with 48 percent support. She was in second place with 20 percent support. That's a growth. I mean, he clearly is still the front runner. It's going to be difficult to take him down. I don't think a lot of these other candidates are necessarily expecting to win Iowa. But if she gets enough momentum coming into Iowa and goes into New Hampshire strong, that's only a good thing for her campaign. So it seems like she's on the uptick. But of course, that chatter about being vice president, you know,

is sort of continuing. It's interesting for her and Trump to necessarily go after each other. He did yesterday and that rhetoric has started to ramp up. But there's sort of a, you know, he hasn't gone after her the same way he's gone after the other candidates. And she has been careful in how she's attacked him. Julia Manchester, thank you very much. And Dr. Leslie Vingimori, final word from you. Do you think she's got a chance?

I do think she has a chance. I think she's somebody to watch. I think she'll be in the political universe at a very high level, regardless what happens. But I do think that this is a very serious person to watch. I don't think she'll be the number two. I think Donald Trump cares about loyalty. And I think the if he becomes president, the oath of loyalty will be absolutely essential to everybody that works for him. There you go. Well, you've heard a bit more about the woman to watch then. It's not a crowded field of women, certainly at the moment.

Thank you very much for being with us today and to our guests. I'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Cobalt. A thriller from BBC Radio 4. Hey, Dad.

The person you're trying to reach is not available. £603 to Rwand Air. That's the price of a one-way ticket to Zimbabwe. Good afternoon, ma'am. We're looking for Mr Manfred Zibanda. Is there a problem? Not yet. They've been in a few times this week looking for the cobalt that went missing. Would you risk it for 20 million?

What the hell is Dad doing in Zimbabwe right now? Cobalt. On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.