Woman's Hour - Hayley Atwell, Grandparenting, Post-natal depression

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

Hayley Atwell and Tom Hiddleston are currently playing Beatrice and Benedict the sharp-witted sparring friends in Much Ado About Nothing on stage at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane in London. Hayley joins Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio. Is Shakespeare’s much-loved comedy Much Ado the original rom com? And how much fun is it to be on stage with a friend of 20 years standing? We find out. The BBC have revealed MI5 gave false evidence to three courts over the handling of a paid informant, known as Agent X a neo-Nazi misogynist. He attacked his former partner, Beth, with a machete and used his role at the security service to coercively control her. She has been speaking out about what happened. Anita is joined by Daniel de Simone BBC investigation correspondent and Kate Ellis CWJ lawyer representing 'Beth'.On Tuesday Nuala spoke to Labour MP Laura Kyrke-Smith who is pushing for more care and support for new mothers struggling with their mental health. Her own best friend, Sophie, died by suicide in 2021 - just 10 weeks after giving birth to her third child. You got in touch with your experiences, with your questions and with information about the non NHS support that’s out there for new mums. We hear from two of those listeners - one we are calling Lucy who has experienced perinatal mental health problems, and also Lauraine Cheesman who founded the charity Shine PND Support in Gloucestershire, after her own experience of postnatal depression.One in three people over the age of 50 has grandchildren. These grandparents are the first generation to be both psychologically aware and very hands-on. Terri Apter, psychologist and author of Grandparenting: On Love and Relationships Across Generations, discusses with Anita the integral role grandparents play and gives some tips for navigating these complex relationships.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. From period dramas to Marvel's superhero to Mission Impossible and now Shakespeare in the West End. Bone of Fidey Hollywood star Hayley Atwell is here to tell us about playing Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing. That's coming up. Then, if you were listening on Tuesday, you would have heard Nuala speak to the Labour MP Laura Kirk-Smith, who is pushing for more care and support for new mothers struggling with their mental health after her own best

friend Sophie died by suicide just 10 weeks after giving birth to her third child. Well it got such a huge reaction from so many of you that you felt compelled to get in touch and we thought we'd continue the discussion today. I'm going to read out one of the messages that you sent. So much of my own experience of postnatal depression in 2021 is that there's not enough support after initial diagnosis. Just given one lot of talking therapy and offer drugs, I needed ongoing talking therapy support and practical support. I needed people to come and cook for me and help with the washing. So we thought we would continue the discussion with two of our listeners who wanted to share their stories. And then

we're going to be discussing grandparenting. It doesn't come with any kind of manual, until now that is. I'll be talking to a psychologist who's written a guide to being a modern grandparent. But let's hear from you about your experiences. What kind of grandparent are you? Did it change your relationship with your child? Do you find navigating it difficult? Do you love being a granny? Maybe the word granny makes you wince. And what about the rest of you, the children and the grandchildren? Share your stories of the relationships you have with your grandparents or indeed your questions for our experts. Get in touch in the usual way, the text number is 84844, you can email me via our website or WhatsApp the program on

03 700 100 444. The text number once again 84844. But first, a new revival of Shakespeare's much-loved comedy Much Ado About Nothing starring Hayley Atwell as Beatrice and Tom Hiddleston as Benedict is currently on stage at the Theatre Royal Jury Lane in London. Sparring partners for years, Benedict and Beatrice continue their sharp-witted battle until their friends interrupt the ongoing verbal combat, secretly suggesting their relationship could be more than a merry war. Well, over a 20-year career, Hayley has proved herself a remarkable all-rounder, equally comfortable on the stage in a Jacobean tragedy, Women Wear Women, in TV costume dramas like

Mansfield Park, Howard's End and Brideshead Revisited, leading a Marvel series as Agent Peggy Carter, we love it, or more recently dangling over a cliff in an upturned train carriage in the action franchise Mission Impossible, is there anything this woman can't do? Hayley, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, it's so lovely to be here. And it's delightful to have you here. I loved this production of A Much To Do About Nothing.

Nothing hey nonny nonny about it. More like there's a party going on and everyone's invited. How much fun are you having? It's, I tell you from the day one of rehearsals it has been a raucous, joyful experience. And so much of the show is about the accessibility of Shakespeare to a modern day audience. And so really welcoming in audiences from all different backgrounds, all different levels of experience with Shakespeare and going this is a story for today and this is told in a way that's accessible and emotionally intelligent, but also ultimately fun.

Yeah, and so entertaining. Like as an audience member last night, I got everything. I was clinging onto every word and I was joyful. There's music, there's dancing. There's a lot of amazing pink confetti. I know, in technical rehearsal, I'd come home every night really late at night and I'd find confetti in my shoe.

I find it stuck to my dog at one point in a cup of tea and so it sort of has spread everywhere. And I remember when I had the conversation with Jamie Lloyd, the director, who this is my third time working with him, and he called me to offer me Beatrice and the chance to work with him and then also the chance to work with finally working with Tom Hiddleston, dear friend for 20 years, was a no-brainer. But my question was, well, hey, how hey nonny nonny is this production gonna be? Is it gonna be corsets and barn dancing? And Jamie said, well, if you've seen the last ten years of my work, you will know that there's nothing hey nonny nonny about this. And everything is sort of paired back and trying to kind of have a bold visual reimagining that's quite innovative and the

music is 90s house classics, lots of diva house, there's dance breaks in it. Yeah, no barn dancing, lots of disco dancing. Lots of disco dancing. How was that? Day one... Because you've got moves, Hayley Atwell. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.

I commit, let's put it that way. I think that day one it was really clear that Jamie wanted to create a company where people just felt that with the sense of freedom and going the audience are going to feel what we feel about doing it. So we just played and we never felt embarrassed. Let's just throw on our favourite dance moves there and the choreographer would sort of look at us and kind of determine what style suited us best as a company. And each person in the company moves very particular to their character. So there's so many brilliant standout performances in it. It's such a strong ensemble for that reason. And so the physicality

is an extension of that. And we know that Tom Hiddleston's got dance moves. Yes. What I love about Tom is how much he loves his own talent. And we know that Tom Hiddleston's got dance moves. Yes. What I love about Tom is how much he loves his own talent. And that is also why he makes a fantastic Benedict, is that Beatrice sort of is, she, there's aspects of him that she is just appalled by at the beginning, the sense of bravado and the sense that he's sort of like, um, is he a player? Is he someone that doesn't take life seriously? Um, and, and the sense of sort of wanting to just be the center of attention all the time is something that she then uses

to kind of, uh, challenge him on his honor and his integrity. Well, you're both equally matched up there. There's a lot of talent and a lot of charisma on that stage. Um, some people may not know the play, so we should just give people an overview, but also let's discuss Beatrice. I feel I was watching a woman ahead of a time on that stage. Very relatable, modern woman. Completely.

When I read this play, now with the mindset of doing it, I so wanted to kind of go, well, in our modern day world, how does this character land and how do I get her off the page and into 2025? And I found that although it's a comedy and there was so much joyful, juicy wit in the language, there's a tremendous amount of sadness in Beatrice. And she's talked about by people in her life in the play

as someone who would even from a nightmare, a nightmare would wake herself up laughing. and that she always has this Mary wit and that people never worry about her. They never see her sad. And that if she tries to have a serious conversation with someone, she'll tickle them out of seriousness. And I found that really interesting as a indication of someone who is not comfortable with this, the sadder, more difficult emotions and uses humour as a defence and uses humour as a weapon. And a weapon also against Benedict to prevent herself from being hurt again by him, because they have a shared history. And

there's a scene as well with Hero, who is her cousin, who is one of these two, it's essentially about two couples, very young, kind of innocent, naive couple that fall in love at first sight, Hiro and Claudio, and then the more mature couple in Beatrice and Benedict who have a shared history, but they always get together and just argue and it becomes entertainment for their friends and family. But you understand that actually underneath that, that arguing and that chemistry really is about an inability that they both have to face the real love

that they have for each other. And so this relationship that Beatrice has with Hero is this older woman, very protective over a young, vulnerable girl who at a key point in the play is not believed and a lie is made about her publicly that is set out to shame her and destroy her. And very quickly everyone else on that stage immediately believes a lie because it's been told by the powerful man.

Including her father. Including her father who immediately without question determines that she is, you know, this person is worthless and doesn't deserve to live. And when I read that, I just found it incredibly resonant. You know, we see stories now, sadly, of people who have been so publicly shamed or shamed within their social circle to the point where they lead to their own breakdown.

We've all seen evidence of suicides that have been created out of it as a result of public shaming. And women in the public eye generally? Yeah. We like to build them up and then at some point... Absolutely destroy them completely and any sense of self that's built on public perception leaves a woman incredibly vulnerable. And so I find that scene in particular, the public shaming of Hero and then Beatrice's fallout of her whole world upside down because of it,

very poignant and also very galvanizing as an actor because it's straight after that scene, she confronts Benedict and talks about, she says three times in that scene, oh, God, that I were a man. Yes. And that if I were a man, I would have the power to advocate for this woman and stand up for her.

But within this world, all the men are listened to without question, all the women are silenced and they're not believed, or they have to really fight just to be heard, the reality of who they are. And it's very satisfying to be able to say those lines every night, because also what she does in that scene is she says to him, you know, men are now melted into Kurtzis, valor into compliment, and he is now as valiant as Hercules that only tells a lie and swears it. And what I think she's saying now to modern-day audiences, we are living in a time where men

in positions of power can lie, and as long as they have the conviction to double down on that lie, they are considered powerful. They don't fall because of that. They gain more strength in the people that are willing to believe anything that they say for the sake of it and To say that to Benedict and to challenge him and saying it is now up to you to if you say you love me to use that Love in another way what a gift of a role. Mm-hmm, because it's a comedy. Let's remind everyone. Yeah, it's a comedy And actually Tom Hiddleston described it as a the original rom-com

Yeah, which it is in many ways, but you've got this really meaty character. And actually I'm so glad you went there straight away because I noticed that. I noticed the depth. I noticed the pain because Beatrice is. She's forthright. She's willful. She's quick-witted. She's passionate.

She's a feminist. She's outspoken. And yet people just think, oh yeah, it's just, we see you play it as there is a mask, there's something else going on underneath it. Yes, totally. And it means that as an actor, I can at the very beginning give her so much bravado. She's strident and she is front-footed and loud and unapologetically so. And I love being able to have that, to do that shamelessly, because I also know that that's the beginning of where she starts and a lot of that behavior is wonderful to watch and so juicy within their kind of back

and forth but we also know that is the it's it's again there's so much more going on underneath the surface of that. How you said you've been friends with Tom Hiddleston for 20 years you you've never acted together, and how much joy was there in playing this character against your mates? Oh, it's an immediate shorthand. The ice is broken, and one of the many odd things about being an actor and going from sort of job to job, company to company, is that you have to break the ice

very quickly with people that, you know, that day, you're doing a scene where you're meant to have had 10 year marriage or a deep-found friendship based on a foundation of knowing who the other person is. And if you're meeting that person for the first time, you have to quickly kind of work out how to gain a rapport with each other. And so to have Tom, who is, we share a very real passion for Shakespeare, we share a passion for the clarity of the language and a precision.

And the precision and the clarity then allows us to also add the fun, the frivolity, the joy, the silliness, the daft, the singing, the dancing, because it feels it's based on a foundation of a commitment to the craft. There is no doubt we are watching two people at the top of their game on that stage. It is incredible watching the two of you. In fact, the whole cast is brilliant. The two of you met at an audition for Radha, is that right? He got in, I didn't. Still sore about that one.

I remember watching him, he got up and he did an improvisation and I thought, oh my goodness, this person is fully formed. I'm like, do you need training? And I ended up at Guildhall, which absolutely suited me. Excellent school. Brilliantly. And the difference I realize now at RADA, my final audition at RADA that I met Tom at,

they'd said to us, well done for getting this far. You've obviously very talented. This is now just about working out the right number of people to take on the course. And they said, we are looking for people who will make a profound contribution to the arts. And I at 20 was going, what does that mean? And then when I went to Guildhall in my final audition, their approach was, just remember, you are auditioning us as much as we're auditioning you. Is this a place you think creatively you can thrive

as an individual with the unique talents you have? And I thought this is my place. And I loved that ethos. And so naturally I did better in that audition and I ended up going there. So it really, really suited me. I'm very proud of the program that I did there. You've done all right, Hayley. I've been all right. I've been all right. But then having Tom, you know We because we're in the same year. We'd always cross paths and How did it come about that you were you're working together now finally now? I think it's we had both worked with Jamie Lloyd before and Jamie and Tom had wanted to do much to do was a dream for Tom to do Benedict And then I think Jamie had said what about about Haley for Beatrice? And Tom said immediately, yes.

And so I kind of got the call from them both together. And you haven't been on stage since 2019. But you have been quite busy. I've been quite busy. You've been on a tour of duty with Mission Impossible. I have indeed. Two movies that we shot pretty much back to back over the course of five years.

Yeah, which is a very long time. And stunts and action and comedy again, very funny in that. And the level of fame I want to ask you about, because it's changed your life. I think it's so interesting because I've had it in small increments over a 20 year period and I think if, and I'm very grateful to that because it can be a slow change Rather than a change overnight and what I found, you know when people say oh fame can change you doesn't necessarily change the person With the fame certainly changes the people around them because people can feel slightly different and I'm aware when I'm around a very famous person. I'm like aware of

preconceived ideas I have about them. And so even working with, you know, someone like Tom Cruise, who has been having at the top level of fame for in excess of 40 years, watching his ability to wear it like a loose garment, and also with for him a responsibility of going, he knows when he walks into a room, it's really up to him to disarm and demystify the name that he comes with. And he puts people at ease. And I learned a lot from watching him of his commitment to creativity, his work ethic, treating people with respect, and just sort of not listening to the noise so much. I think every, you know, whether you're famous or not,

there's so much noise now and we can also, we all have pretty much a public presence with social media that everyone has an experience of being watched in some way. Does it make you sort of become more protective of your private life though? I wouldn't say protective. I would in the sense that in a healthy way, I think it's important for an actor to always remain open-minded, open-hearted, and also to take risks.

And I can't do that if I am protecting myself from the fears or the noise of the possibility of a social perception. So my job is actually to create and determine healthy boundaries, to go, I know where I end and the public persona begins, although it is an authentic version of me. Also to not talk about my personal life because that involves people who have not consented or chosen a public life. And then really going, what ultimately drives me is work for the work's sake. And I love performing. I love being in a company of actors and I love trying things. Going, giving that a go, that didn't work, let's try something else, throwing ideas at a wall and see what sticks. And for me that is a place of real creativity and it's fertile and it means that I'm never going to get stagnant. I'm never going to get, I suppose, overly committed to a sense of who I'm meant to be as this public person, whatever that means. It's an abstract idea anyway. I cannot let you go without asking you, because the fans will never forgive me, about you were part of the Marvel franchise, about Peggy Carter.

And having a shield, it's a Union Jack. I mean, how powerful do you feel when you put the costume on? It's an amazing thing to over a space of what, 12, 13, 14 years now, to have still be associated with a character. And I'm grateful that the qualities in her are values that I share. So I'm very happy that she sort of follows me around when I meet fans of her. And you know, there is a tagline that she has, which is, I know my value, anyone else's opinion doesn't matter. And when I meet a lot of people who have responded to that character in that world, it's because of that line. And I just think what an empowering thing that people are taking from that. I want to hear that reflected back to me. I want to hear that other people know their own value. I think it creates a really healthy level

of self-esteem. So I'm happy that she's part of my life. Yeah, I can't imagine you do playing a character where there isn't a healthy level of sort of some sort of value and self-esteem. And also it's Woman's Hour and we have breadth and we have depth. And last night I was slightly obsessed watching you, but also your nails. So can we just talk about, just very quickly, they are gold chrome? Chrome, they are chrome. Yes, I came to with some references.

I'm very collaborative when it comes to the aesthetic of a character because it's an extension of the personality. And she's sort of kind of Studio 54 is Beatrice in this. I had Kate Moss's 30th birthday party as a visual reference at one point I just thought well, she looks incredible There's a there's a there might or might not be a very shiny sparkly jumpsuit involved in this production a pair of gold heels And lots of as you said pink confetti

So it's all in keeping with this sort of disco rave 90s club classic world Well, it was absolutely brilliant and you are excellent in it. So thank you so much for coming in to speak to us, Haley. Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. And Much Do About Nothing is on at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane in London until April the 5th. Thank you. Now lots of you getting in touch with your experiences of being a grandparent. We're going to be talking about grandparenting later in the program.

I'm the proud nana of a gorgeous two-year-old bundle of cuteness. I love him dearly, but I am in absolute awe watching my daughter and her husband turning into brilliant parents. There's nothing perfect about their journey, normal sleep problems, minor pesky illnesses, et cetera, but they deal with it really well together. And I couldn't be prouder of them. It's hard being three hours away but thanks to technology we still stay connected and it makes time I get cuddles all the more precious and

that's from Ali in Lancashire 84844 is the number to text to keep your experiences coming in. Now on Wednesday the BBC revealed that MI5 gave false evidence to three courts over the handling of a paid informant known as Agent X. A neo-Nazi misogynist, he attacked his former partner with a machete and used his role at the security service to coercively control her. Following her battle for justice, Beth, which isn't her real name, has been speaking to the BBC. For her worries to go, go, but her worries go way beyond her own personal case. What concerns me the most is that he is a free man. Who can stop this? I don't want

other women to have to put up with things like this. It felt completely offensive to be told that my case would have to be held in private and that I wouldn't be privy to any of the information because that's how they operated as if they're allowed some special license to completely breach my human rights. The words there were spoken by an actor. Well joining me now is the BBC's investigation correspondent Daniel DiSimone and solicitor at the Centre for Women's Justice Kate Ellis who is representing Beth in her legal case. Morning to both of you. Daniel let's understand what's really going on here because this is a huge case.

Tell me what you uncovered and how long it took. Well, so I've been working on this for a few years now. So I was first looking at this man who we're calling Agent X as an extremist. This was a few years ago now. And I found he was an extreme misogynist, neo-Nazi, and I was very alarmed by his behaviour. And I eventually ended up speaking to Beth, who we're calling Beth, who was his then former partner, but she had not been with him that long before when I was first in touch. And she was incredibly traumatised by what happened. She'd had a breakdown because of his violent, sexually violent and physically violent and

coercive control in behaviour. And she told me that he had used his role to coerce her, his role with the security service. And I conducted an investigation into this and we looked to do a story three years ago on the BBC about what he'd been doing. He'd also abused another partner. And the government took me and the BBC to court to try and stop that. They didn't succeed in that, but they did get him legal anonymity. But what we've revealed this week is that in that case and in two Kate Link cases which Beth has brought against MI5, human rights cases, MI5 gave false evidence. So they said that they'd never confirmed nor denied to anyone that this guy was an agent and for that reason

Beth would would the evidence in Beth's case would effectively be kept secret from her so the case would happen really without her knowing what they were saying about her and what their defense was to her claim. We showed that was false because they'd actually tried they told me he was an agent when they were trying to stop me doing a story on it on it and they said that was an authorized disclosure so that's led this week to this really unprecedented apology by MI5 to the BBC and to the three courts. What can you tell us about Agent X?

I mean it's not not as much as I'd like to be able to tell you because I'd like to be able to tell you everything about him but we're banned from saying who he is. He worked for security service for a few years as a paid informant. They would task him with doing things, he was authorised. And he is a very, very extreme person. I mean, we're talking about very extreme misogyny. Some of the things he's done, some of the things he said are horrendous.

The previous partner we interviewed before had also ended up in hospital through having a breakdown because of his behaviour. Threatened to kill children, young girls, threatened to sexually abuse young girls, written down fantasies about cannibalism. Very, very dangerous person and yet the government has protected him and his identity is protected. How unusual is this for MI5 to be in court? Well actually MI5 are often in court and I think one of the things about this is that MI5's evidence is given great weight and deference by the courts and various legal

authorities judgments mean that judges have to give it great weight and deference. But the fact that they've admitted now to providing false evidence really kind of undermines them I think, it damages trust in their evidence and their evidence is often heard in secret just as Beth's case most of that was due to be heard in secret. The big thing now is that that that decision of the court to hold most that in secret is now going to have to be reassessed it's going to have to be now taken again in light of this new new evidence. And how about Beth How has this ordeal affected her? Well it's affected her very deeply. She's definitely come a long way in the years I've

known her. She's really come a long way in terms of the strength and everything she has. I think it really does affect her though on a deep level and she said that all of this legal process is re-traumatising, all of the coverage is re-traumatising, but she's really committed to it happening because she sees it as really important and she wants justice. I think she's also said to me in the interview she's done this week that she feels that MI5's actions over the years since we've been looking into this in terms of seeking to protect X, getting him anonymity and then giving the false evidence, it really is kind of consistent with what he used to say to her which is that they would protect him, he was unaccountable.

And she's speaking a little bit about that now in the clip you're about to hear. I think it proves what MI5 are capable of and it feels like all my worst suspicions have been confirmed. So everything that I was told by X about them at the time we were together has actually been proven to be the case. That they are unscrupulous people who will stop at nothing to achieve what they want. Where's my apology? I don't matter to them. I matter because I'm kicking up a fuss and I'm throwing a spotlight on the way they

behave. But otherwise, if I were to just go away quietly, they'd never think about me again. I've already lost years of my life to X and his abuse and I'd very much like there to be an end to it so I can return to some kind of normal life. Again the voice of an actor there. How's MI5 responded? Well, MI5's issued this apology. They say it's an unreserved apology for the false evidence. The corporate witness who gave the false evidence is saying that he thought he was telling the

truth. There's now an investigation that's been ordered by the government into how this false evidence came to be provided. That's due to report to the High Court at the end of April. There's also internal disciplinary investigation. I mean, our evidence shows that there was an awareness within MI5 about this massive discrepancy between what was said in court and what really happened. That's now the subject of this investigation ordered by the Home

Secretary. I'm going to bring in Kate Ellis, who's representing Beth in her legal case. Tell us about your work on this, Kate. What's it been like trying to take this to court? Well Anita, it's been a strange experience bringing this case because usually in a legal case you know you set out your evidence and then you expect disclosure from the other side throughout the process and then eventually all of that evidence will be heard at trial and your client will be a witness and an active participant in the process. In this case as we've heard and then eventually all of that evidence will be heard at trial and your client will be a witness and an active participant in the process. In this case, as we've heard,

Beth has essentially been told that she may have very limited participation indeed in the process, that she's not entitled to hear what the other side is saying about her and about her evidence, that she's not entitled to hear their response to the allegations she's made. She's not even entitled to know in even privately whether this man X was working for MI5. She's not

entitled to have that sort of official confirmation that he was. So that's that's what she was told a few months ago. But now as a result of the evidence that the BBC have brought out into the light, we are hoping that that may change things because it seems untenable for MI5 to, on the one hand, depart from their policy of neither confirming nor denying whether someone is an agent to a PBC journalist and at the same time say that in court proceedings they can maintain that policy.

What are your thoughts on the way that MI5 have handled this? It is truly extraordinary. This is such a serious situation that has very, well, it has had very serious implications for Beth's case so far. I really think had the BBC not taped a phone call with a senior MI5 official, had that evidence not come out into the light, we really can't see any way that the truth would ever have come out. So Beth's case would presumably have proceeded to trial without her being

able to attend crucial hearings and without her really understanding what the outcome or the evidence heard in her case was. But also, it has really wide implications. I think, as Daniel said, this really raises questions about whether there are any sufficient mechanisms to hold MI5 accountable, whether their evidence to courts can really be relied upon when the courts are generally invited to give such deference to MI5 because of who MI5 are, and their evidence is being heard in secret, rarely challenged by their opponents in the litigation. So it really, in this case, it seems that, you know, there are really serious questions about how MI5 were able to get away with this. Daniel, what about this with the wider impact? How do you think this case has affected them as a whole? Well, I think it's an unprecedented

admission that they've been forced into and they didn't, they weren't forced into it lightly. When we first wrote to them in November to make them aware that we were planning to run a story saying that they lied to court, they'd misled courts, they completely doubled down on their position. They insisted that they told the truth in the BBC proceedings and in the two that Kate has brought on behalf of Beth. It was only when we literally said, well, to put you on notice of what the evidence we're going to rely on

in, you know, applying to the High Court to make this bit of this false witness statement public. We invited them into the BBC to have a meeting and I literally sat across the table for them with our legal team, who have been absolutely fantastic, our BBC legal team, and played them a recording of their senior official doing the things that they said he hadn't done, that then they were forced to admit the truth. And that's really, you've literally had to force them into that position.

So I think that is very damaging for them. I think this case was already widely significant in a very wide way because it was around what MI5 do to risk assess agents, particularly in relation to violence against women and girls. Are they going to use their positions to coercively control partners? That was already a really important wide issue. Now there's this wider issue about trust in the organisation and do there need to be new

mechanisms in place to ensure the evidence is accurate. There's also now this wider issue still about neither confirmed or undefined. It's really kind of a policy that they say they stick to absolutely and how sustainable that policy is. And an even wider issue, Kate, in what this means in terms of women's safety and how the courts have handled it. Yes, that's absolutely right. I mean, Daniel's quite right to say that there are, that this case raises serious issues about the vetting of a man who was a very serious abuser, had even kind of boasted about violence against women, all of which would presumably have

been known to MI5 when they chose to recruit him as a paid informant. So I think there are questions about how by recruiting an individual like this MI5 may have actually enabled his abuse because he went on to say to Beth that he was essentially above the law and to kind of brag about the power that this role for MI5 gave him and that of course was used as a sort of tool of abuse. So it does certainly raise wider questions about the state's recruitment of agents in informants who are known to pose a risk to women and what, if anything, they're doing to mitigate that risk. Well, we do have a statement from MI5's Director General, Sir Ken McCallum, and it says,

It has become clear that MI5 provided incorrect information to the High Court in relation to an aspect of our witness statement. As soon as we became aware of the issue, we immediately took steps to correct that part of the statement. We take our duty to provide truthful, accurate and complete information very seriously and have offered an unreserved apology to the court. The Home Secretary and I agreed that she would commission an external review in order to establish the facts and improve processes for the future. That review is underway and is being led by Sir Jonathan Jones, KC. It will report jointly to the Home Secretary and to me. Thank you both of you for joining me to tell us about that.

BBC Investigations correspondent Danielle de Simone and solicitor for the Center of Women's Justice Kate Ellis. Thank you both. I'm Sarah Trelevin and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now lots of you getting in touch with various things on the program. In fact, on Tuesday, Nuala spoke to Labour MP Laura Kirk-Smith, who is pushing for more care and support for

new mothers struggling with their mental health. Her own best friend Sophie died by suicide in 2021, just 10 weeks after giving birth to her third child. Well, you got in touch with your experiences, with your questions and with information about the non-NHS support that's out there for new mums. Two of you are joining me now. One of you were calling Lucy. Lucy has experienced perinatal mental health problems and also Lorraine Chessman who founded the charity Shine P&D support in Gloucestershire after her own experiences of postnatal depression. Thank you so much both both of you, first of all, for getting in touch with the programme and for speaking to us. Lucy, what made you want to text the programme on Tuesday?

What compelled you to do it? I think it was, I think, well, as I was listening, I was obviously just reflecting on my own experience. And I think that when I was hearing, you know, this kind of cry for more help, I was just thinking gosh, I think I received so much help and I think that I remember every appointment I was asked how I was and sorry. It's okay, you've got a baby with you, don't worry.

Yeah, and I was constantly asked how I was and I think that, so I was thinking, gosh, well, what more could we be asking for? Because at the end of the day, yeah, I think that they're definitely, I realize that I do hold back on what I say, you know, because of that fear that was also mentioned of having your baby taken away and so on. But share with us your experience of perinatal mental health. What happened with you? Yeah, I think I definitely,

well, so there were some circumstantial stress factors and I think that ordinarily, you know, you might think you can handle those kinds of things but I think the fact is when you're pregnant, you are more vulnerable and you're, you know, you're not as able to deal with those things. And I think that they got the better of me. I was incredibly anxious, experienced sort of OCD type symptoms and low mood. Yeah. And I think there was a point at which everything just kind of got on top of me and I think that at that point the low mood and the intrusive thoughts just became

really unsettling. How bad did it get? Sorry? How bad did it get? I think, yeah, I'm not sure how to answer that question actually. Well, what sort of support were you able to get then? So I think, as I said, I was constantly asked how I was doing and at one point I remember sort of saying, you know, actually I'm not doing too well and I was referred for a wellbeing

clinic, something called a wellbeing clinic where there was a midwife there who specialises in just mental health support, and somebody else who was sort of there to listen to the more practical aspects of what was going wrong, so financial difficulties and things like that. So that just, I was blown away, to be honest, that was incredible, you know, this kind of two-pronged approach to getting some help there. And then I was sort of kept on, I suppose, by the Perinatal Mental Health Team. And there's another organization called To Where I Live, who offer groups and things like that. So yeah, I felt like there was a lot of support available. And I think I took up as much as I possibly could, but I think that I was holding back, as I say. Yeah. Why were you holding back?

I think it's that fear, you know, it's that fear of, I don't know whether because of what you're going through, you have these crazy pictures of, you know, just people barging in and taking your baby away. And I don't know if that sounds really silly, but I think it's just, it was real. And I think that you just don't know what's going to happen next if you do say what you're really feeling or what's really happening in your head. And you just don't know what's going to happen. And I think that that made me hold back and I can't explain other than that. Well, stay there. I'm going to get Lorraine in to tell us about why she got in touch with the

program and I'm going to get you to talk to each other actually. Lorraine, why did you text in? What was it about Tuesday's programme? Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I was listening to the show and it's just, it's actually amazing to hear this being talked about on the radio to such a wide audience. And yeah, it made me feel really sad to hear about these mums who were struggling to reach out for support because they were scared of their baby being taken away. And, you know, hearing that there was that lack of support out there, shy and PND support, I found it about 10 years ago now.

For that exact reason, really, I experienced really severe postnatal anxiety with my second baby, Eliza. Not my first born Felix, but my second. And it literally came from nowhere. I ended up at the end of the first day of feeling anxious, just literally shaking and rocking. And I just suddenly found myself in a really dark and terrifying place. But yeah, I just really wanted to reach out and to sort of say that there is that support out there and that the community grassroots organizations that are there are usually made up of mums who have experienced it themselves. So, yeah, just really wanted to get in touch and have a chat really.

Yeah. Is Lucy's fear about detailing her thoughts and feelings a common one? Absolutely. I've spoken to so many mums with that same fear. And I think when you are in that place and your head is so full of dark, terrifying thoughts, you kind of think, how can I possibly say this out loud? Because some people are gonna think I'm mad and they're gonna come and take my baby away. But actually the professionals that you would be working with, they wouldn't be shocked by any of it. They know

all about intrusive thoughts, and they completely understand that, you know, the terror that you can feel with psychosis. But their main ambition and goal would be to get you feeling better. And they would be able to give you access to lots of different treatments for the trauma, for the OCD, for the psychosis. You'd have access to medical professionals and experts in medication and that would be their only goal. But I completely do understand that fear because when you're wrecked with anxiety you kind of lose that rationality.

What helps most in your experience? What helped you? It took a lot actually, a lot of therapy and the right medications. I had a really careful balance between two types of medication that really was the key to getting my anxiety under control. But also talking about it, I was very open all the way through because it just literally changed my personality completely, everybody could see. And it was really pushing myself gently out of my comfort zone, just slightly a little bit more every day. But with the mums that I work with now, one of the things that I didn't have was

that the the ability to speak to somebody who understood how I was feeling. So as amazing as my husband and my friends were, they didn't get it, they didn't understand. So one of the really important things with Shine is that we bring those mums together and there is suddenly shoulders go down and it's like, oh my god, it's not just me. Why don't you talk to Lucy directly? Yeah, I mean, Lucy, I don't know if you were able to access any community support where you were able to talk to other mums feeling similar, because I never had that and it felt like I was the only one,

but actually there are so many mums out there going through the same thing. Lucy. Yeah, so I did, like I said, there was an organization listed to me and I went to a couple of groups when I was pregnant. I think it just so happened to be a quiet time or something like that. There wasn't actually any other moms there at some of the groups that I went to. And certainly, those kind of discussions

didn't really take place. So I think again, it kind of left me feeling a bit like, if that's the space available to really share with people who are going through the same thing, and even in that space, we're holding back, you know, I think. And that's not to criticise the provision of that space at all, because I think that that organisation does a wonderful job. And yeah, maybe it was just those few times that I went and then since I had my baby I definitely have struggled to get out and you know I think you're just so tired all you can do is kind of get through the day and getting to things does feel a bit of a stretch but and that's not to say it

isn't there and I think that but again I I know I think that if I went I still would probably hold back unless someone in the room was brave enough to really share some of those thoughts. And once they did, I think everyone would go, okay, maybe we can, but I don't think I want to be brave enough, unfortunately. How are you now, Lucy? How are you?

I think, yeah, I think I'm still struggling. I think that something that I feel is that I'm still lonely, you know, and I think that was something in the message that you read out at the start actually, that, you know, that all these groups and the support, the therapy, the talking therapies, potentially medication, and people want to choose that. You know, it doesn't mean there's somebody there, you know, with you, I'm still on my own. And I think that that is, you know, that's just the way that our society is structured,

is that you're left alone. And so I think I would say right now is that I feel lonely and still vulnerable, you know, and still sort of, but still unable to kind of lean into that vulnerability because I feel like you just got to get on with it. So that pressure feels immense, I sort of sometimes wonder when am I going to crack, you know. Lorraine? Yeah, I completely understand and within groups, it's really important to have that facilitator there who is usually me depending on which group we're talking about, to bring

up some of these conversations. And when you do have a mum in your group who is open and shares and you know, you can say the most shocking thing, but everyone in the group goes, Oh, my gosh, I'm not crazy. It gives everyone else permission, doesn't it? Yeah, it opens up so many conversations, and then everyone feels so much better. It's almost a comfort to know that other people are feeling, you know, those sorts of, even now, see, I don't really want to say anything out loud, because it does sound so awful. But yeah, the intrusive thoughts that come can be really, really scary. So it is refreshing.

Well, how about we put the two of you in touch so that you can continue this conversation? That would be amazing. And I feel like Lorraine, you've probably got a lot of wisdom and support you could offer to Lucy. But I want to thank you both for joining me and for getting in touch with the program after hearing what you did on Tuesday and I must say if you have experienced maternal mental health issues you can go back to the BBC Action Line website for links to support and information. Lorraine and Lucy thank you once again. Now the birth of a grandchild is a cause for celebration but just like with your own children, they don't

come with a manual. Luckily, my next guest has a few tips that might help. Joining me in the studio is psychologist Terry Apter, whose new book, Grandparenting on Love and Relationships Across Generations, hopes to help anyone looking to become the best grandparent they can be using research, her own experiences, she explores the bonds that bring families closer and problems that can keep them apart. It's an expert's guide to being a modern grandparent. Terri, welcome. Well thank you. I've got lots of people getting in touch, lots to talk to you about, but actually I feel like we should reflect what we've just been listening to. Absolutely. Because you just heard Lucy very openly and

bravely sharing the fact that, and she was holding her baby while she was talking, that she's lonely. Yes, yes. So I think that one of the issues in becoming a grandparent is that your relationship with all members of the family change and that means that you have to find new ways. You know, you think you already know how to interact with your adult child, but becoming a parent is such, you know, your life is transformed. And in some cases, as we've just been hearing, it can be devastating. It can, you know, change you so much that you don't know where

you are or what you're doing and how you're going to go through these next steps and how you're going to go through these next steps and how you're going to develop this commitment. Even when it isn't that extreme, you're facing huge changes in your life and anxiety, so much pressure on being the best parent you can be. So on the one hand, a grandmother stepping in here may say, you know, this is wonderful, I can help you. But if you think of it from the new parent's point of view, they're working very, very hard to understand what this baby needs from them.

That people talk about baby brain, which is often thought of as being less clever. You forget this, you omit this, you do this over and over again, forgetting that you've done it. But I think baby brain is really a matter of becoming much more intelligent about your baby, what it is you need, what they're communicating. Now the grandparent steps in offering reassurance, I want to help, also offering a reminder of how in becoming a mother

our family bonds are strengthened across generations. But if a grandmother, and she often does, presumes that she has greater parental experience, this can annoy a new mother for many reasons. It's a distraction from that intense focus that you have on your baby. Also, some of the wisdom that comes from old age can actually now be old-fashioned, so that the new mother has different views about what it is the baby needs,

how the baby should sleep and how the baby should eat. You've got two daughters. I have two daughters. Four grandchildren. So what surprised you the most when you became a grandparent? Okay so when I initially became a grandparent I didn't feel that grandma swoon which a lot of grandmothers do they talk about it falling in love immediately you know this is a new kind of love with its own very special mix of brain chemicals. I was more focused on protecting my daughter from the kind of claustrophobia and confusion

and isolation that I felt as a young parent. So I wanted to step in and give her some kind of reprieve. But I then immediately saw that sometimes my presence was not giving her what I wanted to give her, that there could be more criticism than gratitude for my good motives. But what I then discovered was the kind of mind-changing and mind-boosting engagement with grandchild. So, you know, children's brains are wired for learning. Really brilliant experimental scientists exploring the world. And this is very, even though grandparents today tend to be very mentally active, physically

active much more so than their grandparents were at the same age, nonetheless as grownups they're looking at the world in a different way and grandchildren sort of with their games, with their imagination can give that brain an extra boost to looking at the world in a different way and more it's intimate imagination and it's wonderful. Lots of our listeners are getting in touch with their stories. I'm going to read a couple out. One here says, I am 64 and have two adorable grandsons, one for my son and one for my daughter. I'm very much a part of their life as my beloved mum was to my three children. I work for myself so I've

allowed time to be actively involved in helping with the care but I have to say that trying to juggle everything including my own work, running my home, being super nanny and all other roles, I suddenly realize I'm absolutely knackered. This, think it's time to just slightly readjust and set some goals for not burning out as I think that could be happening. I adore my babies and their babies, but I've never worked so hard. Absolutely. So one of the surprising things about becoming a grandparent is that you can be thrown back

to all those difficult choices that you made when you were juggling your young family and a career. You think they're behind you. But as a matter of fact, if you're committed to a career, if you've put a lot into your professional development, you can be very protective of your child seeing her as a mother. And you think, in order to, as it were,

protect my feminist legacy, I've got to take on those caring roles. So you're still doing it. You're doing it for the next generation. Yes, and then you have to ask again those difficult questions. What am I capable of? What's being selfish? How can I be fair to others and give a lot to others without depriving myself of what it is I need, either still for my own career because a lot of grandmothers are still working, but also you know for myself for what I want to do. You've broken the grandmother into three types, feminist, radical and subversive. Tell us a bit about the differences between those three grandparents and the roles they inhabit.

Well, the feminist one is a real paradox because these are the women who as parents shied away from taking on or from other people assuming they should take on traditional caring roles. But when they are grandparents, they see the big hit that being a parent of young children can still inflict on young parents' careers. And so they say, well, I'm going to step up, and I'm going to ease the burden so that they can devote themselves to their careers. Whatever hit it might make to my career now is not going to be as severe as it would be for...

For my daughter. Yes. So radical, I think, are women who did take on very traditional female roles throughout their lives. And thinking about what do I really want, who do I really want to become, that's radical for them. And they tend to do it mainly in midlife when you're also likely to become a grandparent.

So the question is, you know, so becoming a grandmother then for them raises questions, how much do I want to give? Yes, I love these kids and yes, I want to help out. What about me? Yes. And subversive. Yes.

Subversive parents are wonderful for grandchildren, a kind of mixed bag for parents because they're the ones who want to say, I want to, my role as a grandparent is to induct my grandchildren into things other people won't tell them. You know, I'm going to tell them the real story about life, what life is really like, and what they really need to know. And this might be stuff that other people suppress. And so, you know, they might might say it's very important for me to teach a child to lie so they'll be able to get by in ordinary life.

Very important to say to my child you should be selfish sometimes and you know so as I say they're a great delight for grandchildren but not so much for the parents. Yeah and handing over a cheeky chocolate biscuit when the child is not allowed any sugar. What kind of grandmother are you? Oh my goodness. What category do you fit into? So I'm definitely a feminist grandmother. I thought so.

Yes but I have great sympathy for the others because I'd love to tell my grandchildren, no one will tell you this but me. I'm gonna thank you so much for coming in to speak to us. Terry, Terry Apter and her new book, Grandparenting on Love and Relationships Across Generations is out now. Terry, thank you. I'm gonna end with a couple of messages

because we've had so many. I'd like to try and get a couple in. My late grandmother-in-law, my late mother-in-law was an incredible grandparent to our three children. My last words to her was, if I can be half the grandparent, you are, I'll be doing all right. And another one here saying, being a grandma to two beautiful boys aged two and seven is wonderful. They keep me fit. We go out for days in the country and woods and I can be a tomboy again. Best

time of my life. Lovely to hear. That's it from me. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour in celebration of EastEnders turning 40. This week we came live from Elstree. You can hear some of that amazing programme in Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. This is Danny Robbins here, host of Uncanny, with some exciting news to share. The Uncannyverse is getting even bigger with a brand new Uncanny TV series on BBC2 and iPlayer, featuring some frankly terrifying cases that will make your hair stand on end. But then we will be taking an even deeper dive into these stories with Uncanny Postmortem, a new visualised podcast straight afterwards on BBC2 iPlayer

and right here as audio on BBC Sounds. Expect spine-tingling new twists and some chilling revelations. That is Uncanny Post Mortem. Join me if you dare. I'm Sarah Trelevin and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.