Woman's Hour - Headteacher Emma Mills on Smartphones, Dr Charlotte Proudman, A Musical Tribute to George Eliot

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

Headteachers are gathering today in Harrogate for the annual conference of the National Association of Head Teachers. The negative effects on their students of smartphones and social media access has become a national conversation in recent months, with differing views on who should take the lead in protecting children; the Government, schools, parents, or tech companies. Anita Rani talks to secondary head Emma Mills. Her school, Birchwood High in Warrington, attracted national attention two years ago when teenager Brianna Ghey was murdered. Emma joins Anita to explain why she implemented the ban and what the effects have been so far.Barrister and campaigner Charlotte Proudman first came to prominence ten years ago when she called out a lawyer on LinkedIn who praised her profile picture. Never afraid to speak her mind, she talks to Anita about her new book ‘He said, She Said: Truth, Trauma and the Struggle for Justice in Family Court’.Writer George Eliot is brought to life in a new stage setting, accompanied by contemporary music by British female singer songwriters and using mainly her own words to tell her story. Author of seven novels, a poet and translator, George Eliot - real name Mary Ann Evans - was ahead of her time, befriended pioneering feminists and at one point became the second richest woman in England after Queen Victoria. Performers SuRie and Hermione Norris join Anita to discuss their celebration of her extraordinary and ground breaking life. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do.

Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome. We have a roll call of very impressive women on the programme today who in some way or other have led the way despite what people think of them. We're going to be discussing Victorian novelist Mary Ann Evans, aka George Eliot. As a very successful woman, she lived her life just as she wanted, not caring what was expected of women when

it came to marriage and relationships. She lived with a married man. Charlotte Proudman, a powerful family law barrister whose challenged the institution she works within and stood her ground, has now written a book about her experiences and critiques the courts when it comes to family law. It's called He Said, She Said. And when it comes to likability, Charlotte said, and I quote, "...as young girls and young women, we're taught to want to be liked, and me now wanting to be liked has largely gone by the wayside. I'm aware some people don't like me and I don't care. I'd rather be understood than liked. Also headteacher Emma Mills will be telling me why she's decided to ban phones from

her school, a job that requires the skill to sometimes put what your pupils think of you to one side. And we'll also be joined by Mina Shannon from Traitors, not a program you go on if you necessarily want to be liked. She's just landed a gig as a presenter on Radio One. Told you, a very impressive line up. Now, as you know, the program wouldn't work without your contribution, so do share with me this morning how you feel about being liked. Do you care? Were you someone who was desperate to be liked and fit in at school? Are you still that way? Does it matter to you what people think about you? If so, why? Maybe you've never cared. And if you haven't, what's the secret? What was the moment you realized you

didn't care anymore and you were going to live your life as you please rather than trying to please others? Your thoughts and opinions welcome on this and anything else you want to talk about this morning get in touch in the usual way the text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website. You can WhatsApp the program on 03700 100444 and if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour but if you want to tell me about being liked or not, the text number again 84844. First, delegates are gathering today in Harrogate for the annual conference of the National Association of Head Teachers.

You can imagine that one of the topics of conversation will be around the negative effects on their students of smartphones and social media. This has formed a national conversation in recent months with differing views on who should take the lead in protecting children, the government, schools, parents or tech companies. Well, one secondary head who has implemented a full ban on mobile phones is Emma Mills. Her school, Birchwood High in Warrington, attracted national attention two years ago when Brianna Jai was murdered by a fellow pupil. Brianna herself had a harmful internet addiction. You may remember we heard

recently from her mother, Esther Jai, on the programme. The phone ban at Birchwood began in September last year and Emma Mills joins me now to tell us all about it. Welcome, Emma. Hello, Evelyn. Let's start by figuring out how, telling us how this ban actually works in your school. What are the children allowed and not allowed to do? So, of a morning as they come into school we have a row of desks that are manned by members of staff and they have phone pouches, they call yonder pouches and they open the pouch they put the phone inside it has a lock at the top which they click shut they can't open it for the rest of the day and they keep the phone on them so we're not taking it off

them they keep it on their person inside the pouch and then at the end of the day as they leave we have devices that unlock the pouches and then they have it on their way home from school. It's a little bit like, you know, the clothes tags that you get on clothes in shops. It's a little bit like that, you know, it's a really strong magnet that opens it up. Right, so you're not confiscating them for the day, you're not taking them away. They keep them, they were just in a locked pouch that can only be unlocked by staff at the end of the day. Why did you want to bring this ban in for the students?

I think it's really important that students, that children now growing up, realise that they can live without their phones, that they can have time without their phones. We haven't had mobile phones in school for a number of years but students would have them in the bag, they might go and look at them at lunchtime in the toilets but the biggest thing for me was that constant distraction of your mind. I know myself if I'm in a meeting and my phone is on the desk and you see a light go off you know your mind's drawn to it what's happening on my phone and that's what we found with young people who wouldn't necessarily be using their phone in school, but they're thinking about,

has anyone replied to that Snapchat? What's going on? It's just that thought and that pressure for them. So we wanted to do something different and we've seen over, I've been in education for over 20 years and the difference that we see in children now over that 20 year period is stark.

Okay, well, tell us then, what have you seen change in 20 years and what impact do you think phones have had? And then we'll find out what's happened since last September when you've implemented this, since you've implemented the ban. Yeah, it's hard to put into words the change because it is so vast. I mean when I was a new teacher, this was Facebook kind of first became a thing and we would have started to have some behaviour problems where children would go home, they'd log on to the family PC, maybe do half an hour on Facebook, they'd come in the next day and

it would be so and so's call me this on Facebook, someone's posted this. And at that time we were like, this is awful, this is bringing a whole different dimension to behavioural problems into school. And if we fast forward 20 years on what schools are dealing with now in terms of safeguarding issues, in terms of grooming, in terms of extremism, in terms of sexting, but also other things. Children don't, you know, the communication skills, the developmental skills, critical thinking, resilience, the ability to be bored and to have mental struggle, the fact that they are used to having,

if you press a button, you get an instant answer. It's having a huge effect plus the addiction side of it, the social media is coded to be addictive, inducing that dopamine in the brain. Just to clarify, the vast majority of schools don't actually allow the use of mobile phones during the school day, but they haven't made the choice to do what you've done, which is to actually take them away. Yes, so I'd say, I don't think there would be many schools in the country that say you're

allowed to have a phone, but their phones are in their bags and whether that's, you know, they go and sneak to have a look at it at break are in their bags and whether that's, you know, they go and sneak to have a look at it at break and lunch or they go to the toilets. But for me, it's more that it's that distraction. It's also teaching them you don't need, you don't need to have your phone at all times. You can survive for six hours a day. So you started this in September. What have the results been so far? What changes have you seen? Much bigger than what I thought they would be to be honest. I thought it was really important anyway to like I say to teach this lesson but the impact that it's had is huge and the children who

when we announced it last year who were saying you can't take our phones away from us and now the children that come up and say it's such a huge relief thank you so much for doing this it's like a pressure taking off them we love coming into school and knowing for you know five six hours i don't have to think about it. The other impact we we've got way more students, we do house activities on a Wednesday lunchtime, we do talk a war on the field, we do quizzes, more students are getting involved in that, a lot more. It's been, I wouldn't say unmanageable at times, but a lot of enthusiasm. And I would also say something we've all noticed at breaks and lunches there's so much more chatter we just hear them talking more we hear them being children more

and it's I think it's just it really hit home to me how much the phones were having an impact in school even though we didn't see them. How interesting just that you can actually hear them being children. That's really shocking to listen to hear about. There's been a debate publicly about whether a statutory outright ban would be beneficial or if it should just be left up to head teachers to make the decision about their own schools. What do you think? I think it should be statutory. I think it's really difficult for schools when one school's doing one thing and another school's doing another and you're putting a responsibility of something on two schools.

But also it's the impact of the cost as well. And I think if it's government driven, then there should be funding for schools. If they're underpouches, they're not cheap, but it's a decision that we made to use our school funding for because we thought it was important. But I do think there needs to be a responsibility for the government and it shouldn't just be put on headteachers to make that decision. And where do you think the balance should be between parental responsibility and schools? The Children's Commissioner, Dame Rachel D'Souza, said recently the people with

the real power here are the parents. Yep, 100 percent. I think the problem is that schools see the problems. We are exposed to it. We know what the children are exposed to and parents often don't know that and for me the you know the scenario that I would like to see is a public health campaign, something that educates parents and where I mean I remember when I grew up it was always stranger danger and don't go on the train tracks and we need and there and that was very much about dangers in the real world. And I think parents are very aware of dangers in the real world. What they're not aware of are the dangers in the online world, and children are spending an increasingly larger amount of time in the online world.

I do talks at primary schools, and every time I speak to parents, they have no idea. They have no idea of the things that their children can access. And often the parents didn't grow up on social media, so they're not as well educated. And yes, I do think that the biggest impact it would have is for parents to take control of it. But how do parents do that when they don't know what the dangers are? Well if they don't know what the dangers are and also they know how difficult it is to turn take that device away from the child once they come home. What do they say to you?

What do the parents say to you about it? They say we don't want our child, we don't want to give our child a smartphone, we don't want them to go on social media but we don't know how not to because everybody else is doing it and we feel that they have to have a phone, they have don't know how not to because everybody else is doing it. We feel that they have to have a phone. They have to have a phone going to and from school. And I think that the other part of it, the education part of it for parents is really around the neuroscience and the impact

that going on to social media and having that excessive screen time, the changes that actually makes to children's brains and that there should be more research into that that's shared by the government of why is the legal age for social media 30? Is it data privacy laws or is it because that is the right age for children to be on social media? And I think it has to be government driven that then informs and educates parents so that decisions can be made by them. And what about the changes that tech companies have implemented as a result of the Online Safety Act? Are they enough?

I think, you know, it's a start in the right direction, but it's not big enough and it's not quick enough. And there are too many ways that it doesn't do the job that it needs to do. At the end of the day, the social media is a business model and it's designed to make money and part of making that money is for people to use it more and therefore it is coded to be addictive and while that is still a model and while children, teenagers whose brains are much more susceptible to the dopamine then it's always going to be an issue. And how did the children react when you said that this was going to happen and

their phones were going to be put into pouches that are locked throughout the day? They weren't ecstatic. They were fine. There were some students who were more vocal about it than others. The younger students, you know, they've come from primary school and they've just accepted it. I'd say it took two days of us having it in place and it's been absolutely fine since then. And if anyone would have told me that it would have gone this smoothly and been this successful, I wouldn't have believed them. I thought it was going to be a little bit more of a struggle than it was,

but it's something the children have really embraced. We did a lot of work with them at the end of last year about the things that I'm talking about, about how they're being manipulated. I know the dangers that there are for them. So it wasn't just we're going to ban phones. There was a lot of work done beforehand speaking to the students, educating them, educating the parents, and then they could understand why we were doing it as well.

In 2024, there was research conducted by the centre-right Think Tank Policy Exchange and it suggested that only 11% of English secondary schools had an effective ban and that schools with effective smartphone bans were more than twice as likely to be rated outstanding by Ofsted. Do you think there's a link between performance and a full ban on phones in schools? I definitely think so because that what was talking about before, that idea of being distracted, there's more focus in lessons and like I say we've got more children than partaking in clubs and activities at lunchtime and what one of the big things that's really hit home to me is a lot

of the students are saying to us they're not using their phone as much at home anymore because they've learned in school that they don't need it so therefore you know whether it's doing homework whether it's socializing all of those things know, chatting to other people, all of those things, you know, help to develop thinking skills, help to develop resilience, you know, communication, all of which ultimately will help them to be more successful. I spoke to Brianna Jai's mother Esther not so long ago, she was on the program and she supports a social media ban for under 16 saying that it could have helped Brianna who really struggled with an online addiction herself in the years before her death. Would you support that change too? Absolutely. I work with Esther quite closely in terms of her her phone campaign and that is something that we both very very much would like to see happen. I think it would make a huge difference and I actually think it is the right, 100% the

right thing in terms of content and exposure and you wouldn't let your 13 year old child walk into those sorts of situations in real life. So why are we letting them walk into those situations in the online world? Can I ask, whilst I have you on the program, Emma, how you managed in your job dealing with the collective trauma and the shock of the entire school

following Brianna's murder two years ago? It was extremely difficult, extremely difficult. And having to kind of galvanise people, support people, and keep that, I think it's a leadership thing isn't it? It's like you've got to be the steady hand, you've got to be calm, and you've got to be the steady hand, you've got to be calm and you've got to be the one that's there for other people. And I think really acknowledging what's happened and putting the support in place and talking about it with everybody and remembering Brianna

in different ways and also making sure the correct external support was there for people, for staff and for children in terms of counselors and therapy was all really important. It very much changed me as a person and I think I learned a lot about leadership at that time but it was extremely, extremely challenging. But also to see how the community pulled together was actually really heartwarming as well. And it was nice to see how much Brianna was celebrated. Thank you so much for joining me this morning

to talk to me about what you're implementing now in your score for the well-being of your pupils. And it sounds like it's working. Get in touch 84844 with your thoughts as you are doing. A message here saying, my son is nearly 11 in year six. His peers have had smartphones for a few years now and access social media and WhatsApp group conversations. There have been many issues around this school with kids arguing amongst themselves, bullying and falling out. I'm resisting a smartphone for several years yet. He may get a dumb phone when he starts secondary school, but we're adamant to keep him free from social media

for as long as we can. He can talk to his friends via microphone when he's gaming, but that is monitored and time limited. And another one here saying, my son is at an independent school, pupils hand him phones at morning registration. There's a timetabled 10 minute session back in their form rooms at the end of the day when they get them back. They're allowed phones on the site, but not during the day. It's a school rule. No students or parents question it. I completely fail to see what all the fuss is about, says Sabina. Keep your thoughts coming in 84844. Now I've been asking you this morning for your stories about being liked and that's because of my next guest. In January call centre manager Mina Shannon wowed the nation with her

skills of craftiness and deception on BBC One, walking away as the longest surviving traitor of this year's series. And now she's got a brand new job. This morning was her first day co-presenting Radio 1's Early Breakfast show on Fridays alongside Natto Leary. Mina, welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's our absolute pleasure. You've got a big fan club here by the way in the in the women's hour room office. First presenting shift this morning, how did it go? Oh it was amazing. I was so nervous driving up to Manchester. I was absolutely quaking in my boots but it was so exciting. Nat was just the perfect person to co-host with. She just had her arms

around me, not literally but but it felt like it. So I felt really safe. Five till seven, early shift. What time did you leave home this morning? Oh wow, I left the house at 10 past three. Now I wake up at seven, between seven and seven thirty, so technically I would have only just been getting up. And last night I couldn't sleep, you know, that like new job nerves. Of course. I just kept thinking if I wake up and it's seven o'clock,

I'll never forgive myself. No, no, that wouldn't have been good. So you wouldn't have happened. You wouldn't, that wouldn't have happened. It's not on your first day. How's life changed for you since Traitors? Call center manager, now you're on Radio One. How does it feel?

Yeah, it's, I just could never have dreamt it in my whole life. To be honest, like when I went to uni, I wanted to be a radio presenter. So I studied audio engineering and music production, but I got into uni and I was the only female on my course. And I think there's a lot to say for like when there's no representation, if you don't see yourself in a certain space, I think sometimes it scares you out of trying things so I just did my degree and then I just applied for the job in the call centre and I've been there ever since. Are you still gonna carry on with the 9 to 5? For now, for now yeah like so I work Mondays to Thursdays and so it's fell

well that on a Friday I'm naturally off work anyway and hopefully fingers crossed you know in the future if I can get a permanent slot, then I can say goodbye to the call centre. Yeah, absolutely. Also, I really love that you studied music production. I'm slightly alarmed that even in this day and age, you were the only woman on the course. But what a wonderful turnaround of events that you've landed, not just anywhere, but Radio One. I know, honestly.

not just anywhere but Radio 1. I know honestly like I've grown up listening to the likes of Nick Grimshaw and different presenters on BBC Radio 1 and so just to go on and be in the studio it was such a full circle moment yeah so yeah it's amazing. Yep now you're Nick Grimshaw's colleague. Why did you apply for Traitors? To be honest, after the first series I watched it with my husband's family and my brother-in-law, he loves reality TV. So he was like, Rina, you would be amazing on that show. And I'll just, I think I'm just always up for trying something. You don't have to persuade me. I'll just give anything a go. So I applied and I couldn't get the time off work so I reapplied for series three and luckily work was like yeah you can have the time off.

It was really interesting because people were discussing in the office because I did say you've got a fan club we're all a bit obsessed, what it was about you that did so well and why you were able to deceive people. So why do you think your brother-in-law said you'd be so good on that program? What is it about your personality? I think my smile almost gets me away, like gets me out of murder. I get away with murder off like smiling at people and I seem really sweet and innocent, which I am to an extent. But I'm also, I love being a bit sneaky. So I used to do this thing where I'd hide my husband's phone just in random places in the house. This, I love being a bit sneaky. So I used to do this thing where I'd hide my husband's phone just in random places in

the house. This, I actually did it a few weeks ago and he was like, I thought you'd finished doing this. But it started off, I'd hide it for a minute, two minutes. And then it got to the point where I'd like put it on flight mode and this would go on for up to an hour. And I'd convince him that he has actually lost his phone. Driving Matt. What's gonna happen when he actually does lose his phone? So you seem

to really revel in being a traitor. Why did you want to take on that role? What was so enjoyable about it? Do you know what it is? I think it's two things. I was discussing this with Nat. I am a control freak so I like feeling like I am in control of any situation. I'm always the one who wants to plan the holidays, plan the nights out because I just like making sure it's done because I know I'll do it right. And then the other thing I just thought it's like when as a mum to a toddler am I gonna be able to be cheeky and childlike and cause absolute mayhem and

try and get away with it? Never. This is the only time in my life that's going to happen. So I wanted to go for being a traitor. Was it hard at times? Did you find lying to people difficult? Yeah. So I think I underestimated just how hard that aspect is because as much as, you know, I'll hide Liam's phone, like I know that that's just a bit of a joke but when you quickly grow attached to people and form relationships with them, lying to them and watching them spiral wondering who it is or accusing someone who isn't a traitor that got really hard and it got it felt a bit I felt really guilty and sometimes I'd go back to to

my room and I think oh oh gosh, no one's going to speak to me when they find out. Well the whole theme of the program today is about being liked and whether we should worry about it. So were you concerned, you know, behaving that way, lying so publicly about the reaction and how people might feel about you and whether you'd be liked or not? Yeah, so I was, so with me, I, I more worry about the people who I care about opinions. So like, I've worked really hard on not worrying too much about external opinions. So I was hoping that the public would enjoy it, but I knew I was being true to myself. So that was fine. It was more the other contestants that I'd got really close

with. Like I was worried that I would really upset them and they wouldn't see it as a game. But I think that's just me overanalyzing it. Because as soon as we left or everyone was banished and we got phones back, straight away I text everyone, I'm really sorry for murdering you. I'm really sorry for lying. And everyone's like, Nina, calm down. It's literally a game. It's just a game. And obviously you are liked, because now you've landed this new job at Radio 1. And as part of your new role,

you're gonna be presenting a special live show from Liverpool, your hometown, on the 23rd of May. Tell us about that, how are you feeling about that? Oh, I'm absolutely excited. It's like just getting to do this in May with Radio 1's big weekend being in Liverpool as well. It's such an honour. Having the big weekend in Sefton Park is also really exciting. A lot of my friends have got tickets so on any given day of the weekend a few people that I know are going. So it'll be really

nice to celebrate with everyone, doing a show in Liverpool will be amazing. I just feel like it's the biggest pinch me moment. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get over this month. Like I'm being so honest like this is the best thing that could have ever happened to me and I just was not expecting it. I wasn't. It couldn't have happened to a nicer person. Enjoy every minute Mina and you can go and have a nap now. You've been awake since two in the morning. I am. I'm going to go have a little sleep. Good. Meena, thank you so much. Take care. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children?

Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do. Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Lots of you are getting in touch with the topic that we're discussing this morning and whether we should care about being liked, whether you are concerned about it, whether

you don't care. I was a teacher and then a head teacher for most of my working life. I was never bothered about being liked as I was always confident I was right, says Gill. I was sent away to boarding school at the age of 11 and one of the key strategies I adopted to get through a lonely time was to make myself liked and popular. I used humor and kindness even though deep down I strongly disliked some of my fellow inmates. This pattern has stayed with me all my life and I found myself making massive compromises in order to be liked. I'm pretty old now so I try really hard not to care anymore. Yes, try. When I realized I was autistic at 45 I started to give myself more grace around needing to be

liked. When I realized I was missing certain social cues and just not telling get gelling with people and I learned more about why I always felt unliked. Also being older now I care less about other people what other people's takes on me says Jeanette. Keep your thoughts coming. 84844. On to my next guest. The losers in family courts are so often women and children. Too many women's voices are ignored, dismissed or outright silenced in the family courts. I've seen it firsthand, mothers seeking safety for themselves and their children only to be met with disbelief and a system that protects abusers over victims. Those are the words of the barrister and campaigner Charlotte Proudman. Not afraid to speak out, she first came to prominence ten

years ago when she called out a lawyer on LinkedIn who praised her stunning profile picture. She posted a screenshot of the exchange on Twitter. Well, she's now written about her experience of the familyts in her new book, He Said, She Said, Truth, Trauma and the Struggle for Justice in Family Courts. Charlotte, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Why did you want to write the book? Well, I've been at the Family Bar now for almost 15 years and I have of course represented a very good number of women and children. And I saw systemically,

and what I mean by that is not just one case, but a very good number of cases day in, day out across the country, where victims of domestic abuse, primarily women and also children, were ignored by judges and family court professionals. And their allegations were dismissed. And it often resulted in the systemic harm which I speak about in the book where children were put in very dangerous situations sometimes having contact or even being forced to live with perpetrators of domestic abuse, those in some cases being their fathers. For those that don't know much about this area of legal system what sort of disputes

end up in family courts? Just let's kind of give everyone an overview. Yes, so in my book I speak primarily about children disputes, so when parents don't agree for example on where a child should live or the amount of time that a child should spend with their father. I also speak in the book about child abduction cases. In those situations I refer to cases where mothers have removed their children from their home country as a result of fleeing domestic abuse and then have been ordered by family courts in this country, in England and Wales, to be returned back to the home that they said was very dangerous for them and for their children. I also speak about female genital

mutilation, the need to protect women and children from such egregious acts of harm. And I also touch upon divorce as well, when coercive and controlling behaviour impacts upon a woman's ability and autonomy to be able to financially, freely separate from their alleged perpetrator. In the book you highlight some cases that you've been involved in and what judges have said. Why was it important and you've actually named some of the judges, we won't name them now but they've been named in the book, why was it important to sort of call it call them out? I think that it's incredibly important to understand what happens

behind closed doors in family courts and And for a very long time, family courts have been secret until very recently when now journalists are allowed in family courts as a result of opening them up under transparency orders, which means they can attend and report on the cases, albeit anonymously. So no child or parents identified. However, we only see a few journalists often in family courts, and yet there are incredibly

important interesting and public interest cases that are happening in family courts and not enough interest from journalists, I think, to report on them. No doubt because it can be difficult, as they think, to report on these cases. And I thought it was in the public interest within my book to name some of the judges and indeed some of the experts that have been instructed, particularly in parental alienation and domestic abuse cases, because of the importance and step towards transparency and accountability. We know that these decisions are being made and it's important to know who makes them, you know, what is their name,

what do they look like, what is their background. For example, you know, in my book I talk about Denise who was threatened with having her child adopted or put into foster care. Have you changed their names? All of their names have changed, put into foster care as she continued with her rape allegations. Isla, she was a woman who was told that she hadn't been raped because she didn't fight off her alleged rapist. Kate Kniveton, who was a former member of parliament,

who was ordered to pay the costs, half of the costs of her rapist having contact with her child because he was a risk. So she was financially subsidizing her rapist. And Mary, who was told that she hadn't been raped in part because an intelligent woman like her would remember the date she was raped. There are thousands as you know of cases that go through the family courts each year. What do you say to those people in your profession who say you're undermining the judicial system by speaking

out about these things? Well what I would say to that is if speaking the truth and speaking about what happens within family courts is undermining the integrity of the judicial system, then perhaps the judicial system and my colleagues should have a very careful look in the mirror. Because if they don't want these things spoken about, then they should look at perhaps their own practices and their own judgments and reflect on whether in fact they should be making the kinds of comments that I write about in my book from published judgments. I mean these are factual, people can go and look them up, there are very long published judgments some extending to 50 even 100 pages and of course people can make their own decisions.

What needs to change? Oh goodness, there is a huge amount that needs to change in family courts. At the moment there is no definition, extraordinarily in my view, of rape or consent, in particular consent in family courts. And so proving rape for a complainant or victim is incredibly difficult because you don't know what tests you need to meet in order to prove the allegations. I'm also deeply alarmed to still see that victims of domestic abuse and rape have their medical records disclosed to their perpetrators, sometimes from the day that they were born, some of

the most intimate and private material. I'm also concerned to see that parental alienation is still used as a weapon, and in some cases, as I set out in my book, by perpetrators of domestic abuse to undermine those very claims and to suggest that in fact it's the mother, the victim, that is using domestic abuse apparently to undermine the father's relationship with the children. And in my book I speak to cases where the judges have said parental alienation is being used to torment, frighten and intimidate victims. And I think I would also like to see experts, all experts regulated and I do not want to see any experts in adverted commas in parental alienation which is a pseudoscience

being instructed in family courts because parental alienation... You'll have to explain just for our audience that don't know what parental alienation is. Of course, of course. So parental alienation is, I would describe it as pseudoscience. It is a term that was certainly coined by Dr Richard Gardner, in fact, from the United States some decades ago. And this was a man that in fact did sympathise with child incest extraordinarily. And it is now used in these courts in England and Wales and across the country. And it is used in cases where often, not exclusively, but perpetrators will say that the reason my child doesn't

want to have contact with me is not because of domestic abuse. It's because the mother has manipulated the child and turned the child against me, negatively influenced them. Well, Charlotte, we've got a statement from CAFCAS. And CAFCAS provides, through family court advisors the Children's Guardians Independent advice to the family court about what is safe and in the child children's best interest and they said we do not agree that there is an accepted tendency in professional practice for domestic abuse to be

mis-minimized over reports of alienating behavior behaviors. We do accept that there are instances where practice is not effective, the risk to child and adult victims is not properly assessed and arrangements are supported that are not safe for children or their protective adults. This is precisely why we've developed our domestic abuse improvement priorities, are investing in training and the implementation of a new policy that focuses on the need to rigorously assess the harm and risk to children and adults and to provide that detail and rationale for the advice to the court. You mentioned how things have changed and that now new rules on reporting in family

courts in England and Wales have come into place since January. What difference do you think this will make to how the system operates by allowing journalists in? Well, I mean, my book, I think it's fair to say, is probably the first pop culture, if I can put it that way, type of book that speaks about family court cases in a way which I hope, and people will be the judge of this, but I hope is accessible to the wider public and a general audience. And I think when journalists are in family courts, they're able to do that as well. And often with quick, fast news, they're able to get out stories to show the public what is happening in those courts,

because anyone could find themselves in family courts. And I know that researchers, academics have spoken about the halo effect, that when people feel that they are being watched, they change their behaviour, whether that's judges, for instance, or legal professionals such as myself, or indeed experts. And we're more alive to how other people perceive us, and therefore are more cautious and careful about, for example, using language akin to victim blaming or using rape myths and tropes in courts because they recognise how that could be perceived by the public and when no one's watching it seems from my book

and some of the examples that I use that they unfortunately far too often to use that type of language. Now the Bar Standards Board brought a professional disciplinary misconduct case against you in 2022. The charges against you in relation to a social media thread in which you tweeted comments criticizing a judge's ruling in a domestic abuse case. The charges against you were dismissed at tribunal in December last year. What impact did this case have on you? It was the probably worst experience of my entire life after losing a loved one. I, and it went on, I must say it went on for almost three years. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. It was the first thing I thought about when I went to bed, first thing I thought about when I woke up. The potential,

if I'd been found guilty of the five professional misconduct charges, of course I was entirely vindicated and exonerated and it should never have been brought. But had that been found against me, I was looking at potentially a 12-month suspension, so I'd have had my practising certificate removed from me. I would have faced costs potentially of up to £50,000 plus the costs from the Bar Standards Board, which were looking at almost £40,000. So a huge, not only huge financial toll, of course, emotional toll, and would have had enormous repercussions for my career, and most importantly for my clients. Because many of the women that I

was representing at the women that I was representing at the time, I'd been representing for years and if I'd been struck off for at least, you know, could have been months, could have been 12 months, I wouldn't have been able to represent the rape victims that I had been. At the time you described your victory as a victory for women's rights and freedom of speech and I understand that you're now planning on taking your own legal action. That's right, yes I am. I'm going to pursue a claim against the Bar Standards Board in the Employment Tribunal for sex discrimination indirectly and directly and potentially other

claims as well on the basis that when other barristers, male colleagues who were, I think it's fair to say, not only highly critical of me but engaged in gender violence towards me on social media, using language... Which we can't use. No, but using language in relation to my mental health, suggesting I should be sectioned. As you say, such language is one I'm sure can imagine, you can't even say on air. And these were my colleagues. And yet the Bar Standards Board said they had a right to free

speech to engage in that hate violence. I've had no apology yet the Bar Standards Board said they had a right to free speech to engage in that hate violence. I've had no apology from the Bar Standards Board, which is extraordinary. And also other barristers took to social media, a good number of them, to engage in berating and insulting other judges. And they were told they had a right to free speech. But as a woman, when I criticised a domestic abuse judgement, which was in my view and indeed in the tribunal's view, entirely a matter of public interest, domestic abuse of course is, I was told that I had no right to free speech. We do have a comment from a spokesperson at the Bar Standards Board and they said, the

Bar Standards Board rejects any claims of discrimination. The report was assessed in line with our published policies and processes and where referral to disciplinary action is contemplated the scrutiny of the independent decision-making body. And another one that says the Bar Standards Board handles all cases involving social media usage in line with its published policy adopted in September 2023. After extensive consultation, it would be inappropriate to comment on individual cases. Where do you get the confidence of your conviction from? I think having grown up in a single

parent household and having experienced many of the things that my clients have experienced, mothers and also children children having experienced a domestic abusive household and knowing what it is like to walk in their shoes and I think having written this book I can reflect now and probably many people think it's surprising I haven't done before, reflect on why it is that I've ended up in the battle that I am fighting for women and children's rights. What made you want to become a barrister and focus on family law? I mean I've always been a feminist including when I was a teenager and I was fortunate enough to secure

pupilage in family law and I remember when I was very junior I was doing my undergraduate at Keele University and I saw this incredible female lawyer in Stoke-on-Trent, it was actually in the Crown Court, and she was young, blonde, quite mouthy, I think it's fair to say. She had Louis Vuitton bag in one arm, pink ribbons and papers in the other. And I thought, my goodness, if she can do that, I can do that. It showed the power to me of having someone who looks like you or who you want to be, who you want to aspire to be and I went home that night and I said to my mom I want to do that job I want to be a barrister and I changed my whole career trajectory from being a

solicitor to being a barrister because I saw she could do it and I loved how she bossed the men around as well in court. But you are from a completely different world too, what would be perceived as the majority of barristers? No, absolutely. So I'm from a non-traditional law background. I went to Keele, I lived at home so I could save money. I worked at my local co-op supermarket from the age of 16 to 21 to help fund myself through university. I was the second person in my family to go to university as well. And you know, it was a struggle for my mum. It was also a struggle for me, but she was incredibly inspiring. And my mum has

always been extremely pro education. She's a strong believer in that. So if a young girl was listening to this interview, or maybe if she'd read your book and thought oh I'm not sure I'm not sure if I can prepare to take on that battle would you encourage them to get into your profession? Oh yes absolutely I would I would say without a shadow of a doubt we need more women we need more fighters and we need more feminists in the legal profession. Charlotte Proudman, thank you very much for joining me this morning. Thank you. Now, George Eliot in Words and Music is a stage show that brings words from the great George Eliot together with her life story set to contemporary music by British female singer-songwriters.

George Eliot, real name Mary Ann Evans wrote seven novels, the most famous of which include Middlemarch and Mill on the Floss and contain themes which are still relevant today. She was ahead of her time, shunned for her contemporary attitude to marriage and relationships. She befriended pioneering feminists and at one point was the second richest woman in England after Queen Victoria. Well this production includes contemporary music from Kate Bush, FKA Twigs and Alison Moyet. I love it already. Starring Suri, some of you may remember her as our entry to Eurovision in 2018 and Tamani Norris as the narrator and both Suri and Tamani join me now. Welcome. Good morning. Good morning, lovely to see you both. Suri, tell me about this production.

How does it tell the story of George Eliot in a unique way? Oh, it really celebrates the life and work of this quite radical writer and woman in a theatrical setting. So, of course, I have the gift of sharing the stage with the wonderful Hermione Norris, and it presents such a theatrical production. This isn't a starchy seminar or a lecture, you know, it doesn't matter if you don't know George Eliot before you actually come and be entertained with a lot of humour, a lot of heart and a lot of music that we've woven through the script as well.

Hermione, hello. You've come in as the narrator on this production. How much did you know about George Eliot beforehand? I knew you know about George Eliot beforehand? I knew very little about George Eliot. I was very familiar with Mill on the Floss and Middlemarch, but I knew very little about the woman and the more I... I mean, I literally only know at the moment what I read and narrate and read from her texts and her journals on stage but the more I know of her the more I love her actually and admire her as a woman. She was fiercely bright, had such integrity and lived her life utterly true to herself

which took great courage I think. You know she lived with her lover out of wedlock and it cost her a lot, you know, she lost her relationship with her brother, her family cut off ties, society shunned her. I just admire a woman with that courage to live with absolute integrity and she was a good person, she understood human psychology and was compassionate and she was good she was a good woman. So the whole theme of the program today is about being likes and whether we should feel that we, particularly as women, you know we're at so many expectations upon us and we're meant to behave and be good and be liked and all

the rest of it and she didn't care and we've just spoken to Charlotte Proudman who you know stands by her own convictions. Where did that come from in her? Was it because she was so successful? Did that give her the freedom being so wealthy? Wasn't she the second wealthiest woman in Britain? After the Queen she was. I think she was, I think it comes at her brightness, she was fiercely bright and she had a voice because she got in under the radar with the pseudonym George Eliot, her real name's Mary Ann Evans as you know. So she had earned her stripes as a reputable, very celebrated author and then was able to present herself as a woman I suppose so it came that way round. It wasn't her presenting her writing as a woman and

then being judged on that if you see what I mean. Absolutely. Tell us more about the music in the production, Suri. Why was it chosen? How does it work? Well, music was really important to George Eliot. She loved the piano, she played the piano. The piano was a happy place for her, something I really relate to. So this was very important to David LePage, who is the Artistic Director of Orchestra of the Swan. and this is the collective that is also sharing the stage with us that accompany us beautifully, wonderful exquisite musicians. And so I worked alongside Orchestra of the Swan to choose music exclusively from contemporary British female singer-songwriters to soundtrack this show. We've got Kate Bush, Alison Moyet, Bat for Lashes, FKA Twigs, you've

got some Surrey songs and it works because it complements or juxtaposes the scenes that you've just heard or you're about to hear. It allows the audience to really interpret and feel whatever they want to feel, which I think is quite a thrilling live experience. Yeah, I looked down the list of all the female singer-songwriters you've got in the soundtrack and I thought this is very good. Yes exquisite and the musicians that for me has been a huge privilege being on stage with the musicians and Suri, the effortless beauty and purity of her voice is extraordinary. I think you've introduced, I think we should hear some. Suri you're going to perform for us? Yes. What are we going to hear? Well when I was researching George

Elliott and learning a lot myself, I was really taken by her poetry which for me just sang off the page. I think her text, her lyrics or what I turned into lyrics are melodic in themselves. So I was taken by a few and this one is called Day is Dying, which in the show does highlight a really poignant, quite moving moment about loss and grief, but out of context, and I implore you to hear the beautiful musicians that will be accompanying us live as well in the show that you must come and see, this is a reflective piece that I think highlights a lot of gratitude for our day, our time, nature, landscape, all of the things that we need to appreciate perhaps more when we get distracted about other things. This is Day is Dying. Suri, that was beautiful. How lucky are we Hermione that we got to sit in the studio,

this tiny little studio, just listening to that. That was a real treat. Beautiful. How relevant is her writing today? Very, I think. I that she does understand psychology of human nature and really has a huge amount of compassion for the input she loved deeply I think she understood the importance of relationship and that is never changing it's as relevant today as it was forever for all time and yeah I think... Give us some examples of what she was talking about. Her relationship with her

brother was pretty extraordinary. Yes. Suri you said that there was actually a bit about in the script that brought you to tears. Yes well I find it very moving we reenact multiple characters and Maggie and Tom, a sibling relationship that we also kind of voice, is very, very powerful in the show. I think she has, George Elliott has such a way of writing, of course about women, but about everyone, about humans, about heart, and it's very, it's very relatable actually actually I think she puts a lot of humility and a lot of wit a lot of humor into it but it's it's very very current it feels very timeless her writing. And because it's quite paired back there's no makeup or costume or drama you literally have her words her

text and the musicians underscoring it it is very there's something very pure about it. It's very accessible. What was her relationship with her brother? She adored him and he punished her brutally for living with somebody unmarried. He didn't speak to her for 24 years, which she was devastated about.

And then I didn't realize that she had used that relationship in Mill on the Floss with Maggie and Tom Tulliver and they don't get reunited until the catastrophe strikes and they go down together clutching their little hands as they did when they were children. That's quite heartbreaking. That's the bit, yeah. I mean, there's a fair bit of tragedy, as we've talked about in her work, but you've

just mentioned also there's humour. Can you give us an example? Of course, men know best about everything. Except what women know better. There we go, yeah. That's the punchline. There's the woman. Yeah, she's wonderful. And hugely successful in her own time. We've talked about how much wealth she'd accumulated.

Had you been a fan of hers before and are you a fan now? I'm a huge fan now. I'll admit I wanted to read Middlemarch and when this eight book tome landed through the door, I'll admit I did watch the wonderful BBC iPlayer adaptation that's online. That's wonderful, I binged that. But so taken by her poetry and now learning more about the woman how relatable what a recluse she sometimes wanted to be how she sometimes needed to shut herself away and be quite private I admire her for that whilst then also being strong and standing up for what she believed in

well it thank you so much both of you for coming in it sounds like it's gonna absolutely beautiful production I actually want to come and see it myself. Hermione, Norris and Suri, thank you so much. And you can catch George Eliot in Words, Music and Music on Friday the 16th of May in Coventry and then other dates around the UK. We like it when you go around the UK. And I must end the programme by reading out an announcement from the Ministry of Justice. A spokesperson told us nothing is more important than the well-being of children, which is why we're reforming family court proceedings to provide much earlier access to specialist support for brave survivors of domestic abuse. That's all from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Hannah Fryer. And I'm Darryl Breen. And we are back for another series Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Hannah Fryer. And I'm Dara O'Brien. And we are back for another series of Curious Cases. Where we investigate the scientific mysteries sent in by you. Are crows capable of complex emotions? What happens to our brains when we fall in love?

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