Woman's Hour - Helen Fitzgerald, Abortion Clinic Harassment, Nuns and Juliet Stevenson on Acting Your Age

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

Helen Fitzgerald grew up in rural Australia as one of 13 siblings. Her new novel Keep Her Sweet looks at what happens when 'normal' sibling rivalry turns into something else. She joins Krupa to explain why she's so fascinated by the dark corners of family life.When was the last time you saw a nun? It feels like a very old-fashioned vocation – and there are less and less in the public eye now. But some nuns in the US are turning to Tik Tok to bring religion into the 21st century through social media. The Daughters of St Paul are known as the ‘media nuns’ on Tik Tok, they do skits and dances, and have millions of followers worldwide. Then Sister Monica Clare from the Community of St John the Baptist went viral because she was on Tik Tok and everyone wanted to know her skin routine…now she answers people’s questions about being a nun. And, of course, we’ve got everyone’s favourite - less PC nun – Sister Michael from Derry Girls, played by Siobhan McSweeney.Women attending abortion clinics in the UK can face “regular harassment” according to a report from BBC Newsnight. Anti-abortion groups who gather outside services say they’re holding “prayer vigils” and offering help but some patients say they have been so distressed they’ve had panic attacks or even felt suicidal. Now charities are calling for protected areas outside all services which activists cannot legally enter. More than 100,000 women in the UK attended abortion services targeted by activists in 2019, according to latest data from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which is a leading provider of abortions. Anna Collinson is the Newsnight Correspondent who compiled the report.It’s four years since journalist and actor Nicky Clark founded the Acting Your Age Campaign. Incensed by the lack of middle-aged women on stage, television and in film, and rarely seeing stories of women like herself portrayed, she has attracted a lot of support from women such as Meera Syal, Tracy-Ann Obermann and MP Jess Phillips. Actor and fellow-supporter, Juliet Stevenson joins Nicky and presenter Krupa Padhy to explain why it appears male actors on screen ‘have a whole life and women have a shelf life’ and why this campaign is necessary.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Parti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, welcome to the programme. Four years since the UK's first abortion clinic buffer zone was set up, only two more have followed. The BBC has found women attending services at clinics can face regular harassment. We're going to get more on that with my colleague from BBC Newsnight who carried out that investigation. We're also going to talk about sibling rivalry with the author Helen Fitzgerald.

Her new novel, Keep Her Sweet, explores the relationship between two sisters and what happens when sibling rivalry turns dangerous. We want to hear from you on this. How have you managed conflict in your relationship with your brother or sister as a child or indeed as an adult? Did it ever become toxic and how did you manage it? You can text us on Women's Hour on 84844. We are, of course, over on social media, on the handle at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram and on Twitter.

And you can email us through our website. I'm also going to introduce you to an American nun who is also a TikTok star. In her own words, Sister Monica says, We're not all grim old ladies reading the Bible. There's joy and laughter. The women in my community are very intelligent, very feisty. They know what they want. We're going to hear from her and also from another on-screen nun celebrated for her wicked wit, Sister Michael from Derry Girls, also known as the actor Shabord McSweeney.

She joins us towards the end of the programme. But we begin with a conversation about women and online safety. According to a coalition of experts, including the End Violence Against Women Coalition, Refuge and the NSPCC, the Online Safety Bill, which is an attempt by the government to regulate social media platforms,

which is currently before Parliament, does not even mention women, misogyny or violence against women and girls. And this despite one in three UK women having experienced online abuse or harassment online. So for the first time, a ready-to-use set of guidelines or code of practice has been created which if adopted would mean social media companies would be regulated to prevent and respond to violence against women and girls perpetrated on their platforms. To explain this and how this would all work I'm joined by Ruth Davidson the CEO of Refuge, a charity that supports women, children and men experiencing domestic violence. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ruth. Thank you, Griebel. Thanks for having me on and

inviting us to speak about this. Well, let's talk about the stats. They are eye-watering, one in three women, the equivalent to 11 million women. And just to break those down a bit more, up to 62% of young women with black women, 84% more likely to experience abuse than their white counterparts on some platforms. These numbers, Ruth, they speak for themselves. How have we got to a stage where social media companies aren't addressing these concerns, or are they? They're not addressing them adequately, that's correct. And you're absolutely right that the scale of this problem is terrifying. Almost two thirds of young women experience abuse on social media platforms. It's utterly unacceptable and it's only escalating.

Refuge runs the UK's only specialist tech abuse service and we saw a 97% increase in complex tech cases last year. I think it's also really important to draw out the fact that this just doesn't happen online. Abuse is a pattern of behaviour, and 85% of women who are experiencing abuse online say that it is a pattern of abuse that they are also experiencing offline in the rest of their lives. So this is incredibly serious, and you're right, self-regulation by the tech platforms is not working. You talk about complex tech cases. What do you mean by them? I mean, I suppose when we often think about this,

we think of maybe someone posting an abusive comment or saying something we don't like, some online trolling, which in itself is serious and very harmful, particularly to young women. But actually, we're also seeing much more complex and terrifying situations. So people creating many, many fake accounts to make threats, threats of death, threats to harm against a woman and against her children and her family. We're seeing people creating, again, many fake accounts that they can post damaging reviews of

that woman's business or contact her employer to stop her ability to earn money. We're seeing people using online platforms to stalk and follow people so that they can then control their behaviour in the real world, limit where they can go. This is very, very complex and intertwined, as I've said, with offline experiences. So now we have this situation where we hope that this code of conduct will be introduced. How will it work in practice? Yeah, this code of conduct, which we've been really proud to work on alongside, as you said, Evo, Glitch, the NSPCC and academic experts, it sets out exactly how platforms should implement the new duties that they'll have under the online

safety bill. So they can not just respond to violence against women and girls, but they can prevent it. At the moment, as I said, it is woefully inadequate what we're seeing. Even when we report something that's happened, we have trusted flagger status as refuge and it can take us months to get a single post taken down. But domestic abuse and violence against women and girls is part of a pattern of behaviour. So removing one post at a time over and over again is not stopping the problem at source and is often only the tip of the, you know, a needle in a haystack, I suppose. Under this code of conduct, we set out exactly how platforms can behave to prevent this happening at source. We talk about safety by design, about moderation, about training for their own staff, as well as about how they respond when these abuses do continue to happen. But what about accountability? I mean, this all sounds great on paper. How do you get

social media companies to adhere to these guidelines? And then how do you ensure that they're seeing them through and acting on them? That's why it's so critical that this code of conduct is included in the online safety bill, because if it is, it will give Ofcom the ability to regulate as opposed to self-regulating. It will be a mandatory code and there are already other mandatory codes in the bill. They look be a mandatory code and there are already other mandatory codes in the bill. They look at issues like terrorism and child sexual exploitation. These are strategic policing priorities, just like violence against women and girls. So there is a really clear gap here for a code of practice. And if adopted, the bottom line is that this

will make online spaces a safer place for women and girls. It's a key part of the solution. Do you anticipate any resistance from companies like Twitter, you know, Twitter trying to open up more, what with its new CEO coming into power, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Can you anticipate any resistance from them? I think, I mean, we've engaged with tech companies as the code has been drafted and our specialist tech team do work with the big social media companies. We know many of them do want to improve their responses to VORG but I think we need to give them a detailed set of guidance to show them how to do it. As I've said there's a fundamental lack of understanding about the pattern of abuse and taking down one piece of content at a time rather than blocking the perpetrator

is not going to solve the problem. And far too often, unfortunately, the focus is still on the woman. There's victim blaming involved often about, well, why did you put yourself in this situation? Why did you allow this to happen? And far too often, the easiest and quickest response from platforms is to say, well, just delete your account, you know, just come offline. Why should women's voices be silenced? Why should we be pushed out of online spaces because of perpetrators' behaviour? So I hope we won't see resistance. And I hope there is a recognition from the tech companies that this will help them create an even clear playing field with accountability, as you say, so that we can fundamentally change the experience women and girls have online.

And just briefly, if this code of practice was adopted, the UK would become the first country in the world to hold tech companies to account on tackling violence against women and girls. How likely, in your opinion, is it that the government would include this in the bill? Yeah, we're really hopeful. As I said, there are other codes of practice for other strategic priorities. The government has made a very strong commitment, the Home Office particularly, to tackling domestic abuse and violence against women and girls. And we've had really constructive, positive conversations with others, with government officials. So we hope that they do see this as a really clear and easy way in which they could actually plug this vital gap

and make the internet a safer place for women and girls. Thank you so much, Ruth Davidson, the CEO of Refuge, for coming on to Women's Hour. And I should say that we have asked for a response from the DCMS and we are awaiting a reply. Helen Fitzgerald's dark, twisty novels often explore the underbelly of family life and relationships. Her novel, The Cry, was adapted into a successful TV series back in 2018. And in it, Jenna Coleman played a mother whose child is snatched from a car in the Australian outback. Her new novel, Keep Her Sweet, has two 20-something sisters, Camille and Asha, at its heart. Their parents are downsizing, looking to focus on their next chapter of their

lives. But suddenly, the sisters are back home and their relationship is complicated. Helen Fitzgerald joins me now from Glasgow. Good to have you on the programme, Helen. Well, let's start with you personally. I mean, you are in a very good position to explore sibling relationships. You are one of 13. I imagine that's taught you a great deal. It has taught me. It's taught me to live 12,000 miles away from the rest of them. Yeah, complicated. I mean, everybody's grown up quite nicely, but I've been having the most hilarious conversations with my sister about our childhood and how, you know, some of it was pretty, pretty scary, actually. We had rules of engagement for, you know, when we were having arguments or fights to do with violence, really.

One of them was never around mum and dad no weapons yes um not the face only the arms and so there's a lot of pinching that was done in mass and uh never on your birthday and I but she'll say that to me I thought oh that's why I love my birthday so much and I stretch it out for a week every year you know you you talk about it and that sounds like it's a very I mean I can't I can't call playful, but it sounds like something that so many children and their peers and their siblings would experience. But in your book, you talk about the relationship between Usher and Camille as being toxic and dangerous, which is almost sibling rivalry on another level. Why did you want to explore that? I guess I was asking the question after lockdown in particular, when a lot of people had their adult children at home. And also I'm at the

emptiness stage now. So my husband and I have been very excited about being on our own and kind of dating again. But the children come home. And you know, no wonder with the cost of living, I think it's just increasing the age that children are leaving home. It's like creeping up from 25 to 30 now. And my mother-in-law says, in Italy, Helen, it's 35, you know. So, you know, we're living in these family units now where we're all adults. And yet the rules of and the behaviours of all of us are sort of revert to the, you know, the people that we were when we were younger. You know, it's always the sort of the child who was the pretty one, the child who was the quiet one, and that competition for the parent's affection.

So I was wanting to sort of ask the question because I don't have the answers about when the relationship has been kind of toxic or there's been a bully as younger children, what does that look like when you're adults? Because I can imagine that there are a lot of issues. And everyone I speak to has a very sort of funny story about their sibling, but it's also quite scary, you know, like the things that I was just telling you.

One of my friends said that there was a period when she came out in a rash all over whenever she was near her sister. You have these very close chemical relationships with your siblings. And I imagine that families are having to deal with, you know, sort of changing their roles and resetting their family. With lasting impacts into adulthood as well. We've had a few messages come in on this. This text says, I sadly have a toxic older sibling.

Siblings, rather, they never agreed to my lifestyle. The only solution was for me to remove myself from that environment and focus on my own life. I will only talk to them if need be. This one says, I have one sister. Our mother was an undiagnosed narcissist and worked very hard to separate and divide us. Our only shared experience

were the cruelty and neglect inflicted on us, which leads me to my next question because I lose count of the number of times I've said to my own kids, look after each other forever. And you also share a similar line in your own book where the mother says to one of the sisters, promise me you'll look after your sister.

The idea of a lifelong relationship with your sibling, it can be complex and a lot of pressure, can't it? A lot of pressure. It's the longest relationship that you'll have in your life. And I feel that people feel a terrible amount of guilt about even talking, being estranged or wanting to be estranged from a sibling. But there are a lot of really toxic relationships. And I think sometimes it is best to sever ties. It might just be the only healthy way to go. Absolutely. Another email that's come through. I grew up in the shadow of a sister four years older than me who was jealous of me for as long as I can recall. She bullied her own children too and her mother in her closing years. Eventually one of my closest friends persuaded me to seek professional help and once I understood how damaged we both were

and once I began to hold better boundaries for our relationship she chose to break off all contacts and whilst I grieve the loss of my only sibling, my mental health has been substantially better for it. There is something huge in that, isn't there? There really is. It's a feeling of sadness and guilt, but actually you've got to look after yourself. And I think that a relationship that brings you out in a rash and that you're being bullied constantly

is one that you really need to walk away from. You do when it's a partner, you know, and if there's been violence with the partner, that's taken very seriously. What I found when I was writing this and talking to people is everybody laughs at their sibling stories and some of them sound horrendous. I don't think they're actually very funny or they're only funny for one person. You know, the person who is pinning you down finds it funny.

They're deep rooted, aren't they? Absolutely. Let's talk about downsizing because you mentioned that you're in an empty nest scenario, let's say. But there is an element of refinding yourself. And that is what Asha and Camille's parents, the protagonists in your book, are trying to do. They're trying to downsize. They're thinking about their lives after kids. Really, they're trying to fall in love again, because after all those years of raising your

kids, you become mum and dad rather than husband and wife to one another. But that's not how it works out for those parents, does it? No, because the kids move home. And I have to say, the other day, a truck appeared at the front of our place, and my son arrived back from uni. And I think everybody's having that more and more and you can understand why. But yeah, Empty Nest, I thought, oh, I'll be fine because I've had a job, I've had a life, you know, it's not going to be a big shocker for me, but it was a big shocker. And I think it was because of the relationship side of it. You know, my husband and I had three years together of, you know, fun sort of carefree dating and then we had children. And so, you know,

cut to 20 years later and we kind of looked at each other and thought, who are you again? And it has been a bit of work actually and I think it takes a bit of work and maybe even some counselling to sort of, you know, reach that next phase and make sure it's a happy one because, you know, we're having a great time now. Good to hear. I mean, you talk about your son coming home there.

That's just temporary, I imagine, from university breaks. But a lot of kids, they are coming home. And as you mentioned, the pandemic has certainly meant that is increasingly so. They're often called boomerang kids, aren't they? What does this do to families having the children move back home in adulthood? I think it's really expensive for a start. And I think what I found was for a start. And I think what I found was that I remember thinking, hang on, there are four really big people in this house,

all very capable. How come I'm still doing that? And my husband's still doing all that, you know, that the jobs had to be, you know, changed. So the children had to take on more responsibilities. And I think it's really important to have discussions when children move back home about what your roles are now because they're changed. And also about what the plans are. Is this forever? I think that all the research I was reading about it was saying you really need to have an end date or at least a plan

for what is coming next because it can feel like, and it certainly did in lockdown for me, it felt like I was going back 15 years doing all the washing again things, you know. What is so tender about your writing is that you're very honest and you often put your own life experiences into your writing, albeit them being novels of fiction. But in your novel, Worst Case Scenario, there is a menopausal main character and you've written about it in an earlier

novel, Hot Flush. What does a menopausal character offer a writer? Rage. And rage is fun to write. And I think that's what I felt when menopause hit me. I was sitting in the kitchen at work and someone was making a cup of tea very slowly. And suddenly a red mist came over me and I wanted to smash their head into the tap. And I thought, oh Lord, what was that feeling? I haven't felt like that since I was a teenager. And that's quite a shocking thing. And in social work, it's not a great way to feel when you're dealing with difficult situations and sensitive issues all the time. So the rage and the mood changes was a big thing for me, but also the absolute fatigue,

not having the energy that I used to have. There was a whole bunch of, there were a whole bunch of menopausal women in my office, so the windows were open all the time. We all felt very different from how we used to feel and we weren't, it's really hard to cope. I remember wanting to go off sick but thinking,

I can't say I want to go off sick because of menopause, because, you know, half the population had that. And it could go on forever. But I really didn't feel like I could work. So I did leave work because of menopause. And I think that honesty in your writing certainly comes through and keeps readers so engaged. Thank you so much, Helen Fitzgerald. They're talking about her book, Keep Her Sweet. Thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. It is more than four years since the UK's first

so-called buffer zone was set up outside an abortion clinic in the London borough of Ealing. The aim was to prevent anti-abortion activists approaching and often upsetting patients whilst they were accessing a legal health service. Campaigners had hoped that buffer zones, which are legally protected spaces, would soon become the norm. But since 2018, only two more have been set up and women attending the clinics are reporting harassment on a regular basis, while anti-abortion groups who gather outside say that they're holding prayer vigils and offering help. More than 100,000 women in the UK attended abortion services targeted by activists in 2019. That is according to latest data from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. In a moment, we'll speak to Anna Collinson, the BBC Newsnight correspondent who covered this story.

But let's first hear from Lauren. She's 33 and from Glasgow and at 20 weeks pregnant doctors told her that her baby had little chance of survival due to a heart complication. She spent the following days trying to decide whether to continue with her pregnancy and during that time she also found out she was due to have a girl and called her Riley. On one hand it was the hardest decision I've ever had to make but on On one hand it was the hardest decision I've ever had to make but the other hand it was the easiest decision I've ever had to make. I knew I was doing what was best for her but it was hard because I didn't want to give her up. It was a week between that appointment and the termination we were told that I wouldn't remember anything after being sedated but my body fought the sedation and I remember every single second dydw i ddim yn cofio unrhyw beth ar ôl cael fy nghymryd, ond roedd fy nghymryd yn cymryd y cymryd ac rwy'n cofio

bob un secund, rwy'n cofio dweud adeg. Mae'n anodd i chi, yn amlwg, gadael eich beibiau a'u gwybod yn iawn bod gennych chi'n rhaid i chi wneud y penderfyniad, ond pan fyddwch chi'n mynd drwyddi ac yn gweld y bobl gyda nodiau yn dweud pethau fel bod gwrthdaroedd yn mordi, mae'nlo'n ddiogel iawn am y penderfyniad rydych chi wedi ei wneud. Byddai fy mam yn cyrraedd ac mi fyddai'n rhaid i mi gosod gyda'r ffôn i sicrhau nad oeddwn i'n cael eu gweld ac fe fyddwn i'n cadw fy ngheiliadau i gyd i ddod i'r lleoliadau ysbyt. Dydw i ddim yn gwybod os maen nhw eisiau cynyddu pobl, os yw hynny'n ffordd y maen nhw'n ei teimlo, ond dyna beth maen nhw'n ei wneud i bobl. I don't know if they want to intimidate people, if that is how they feel, but that's what they're doing to people. They are making them feel absolutely terrible for decisions that they might not be able to have a real choice in. Anna Collinson from BBC Newsnight joins us now.

Anna, listening to Lauren there, we can hear just how traumatised she still is by that experience. Is that typical of the stories that you heard from women trying to legally access abortions? Yes, absolutely. Good morning. Yeah, Lauren's story is incredibly powerful. She is also, it has to be said, an extreme case. Women go to abortion services for all reasons. But ultimately, that service is a legal health service. And we've spoken to women directly. We've seen hundreds of handwritten impact statements written by women and their close loved ones. And time and time again, we see the same sort of words, fear, shame, feeling intimidated. We've even seen people have experienced panic attacks after coming into contact with these anti-abortion activists. One person even said they felt suicidal. Some

staff we spoke to in clinics said, well, you know, some women can handle it. They've taken it in their stride. It doesn't bother them. On one day, if there is a person gathering outside or there is a gathering outside, at least one patient will feel affected and they may need to escort them in or escort them out. And that's all coming on a day which can be incredibly traumatic for patients. And just so we're clear, Anna, what kind of tactics are used by these groups gathering? Sure. So, I mean, it can range from a wide range of things. They may hand women or their loved ones who are escorting them in leaflets, which clinics say contain misleading or medically inaccurate information. They may hold signs saying abortion is murder,

as Lauren just described there. They may be chanting loudly and patients can hear them while inside the clinics. They may block routes. They may knock on loudly and patients can hear them while inside the clinics. They may block routes. They may knock on cars. We've seen pictures of babies, clothing and hedges. But what anti-abortion activists would say is they are holding prayer vigils, that they are only there to help and support, that they're not there to harass. And ultimately, you know, it's their rights. And by sort of creating or blocking them from doing that, that would be criminalising prayer. Let's talk about buffer zones. And just so we are clear, what exactly are they and what powers do they give to the police?

Sure. So a buffer zone is effectively a protected space out of an area and it can be used for all sorts of different things like antisocial behaviour. But in this case, it can be set up outside an abortion clinic, hospital or service. And it's carried out by using the Antisocial Behaviour Crime and Policing Act. So councils in England and Wales have the power to enforce a buffer zone via a public space protection order. And that gives local police the power to move people on if they enter that or even find them. Now, we found that campaigners, the first one was set up outside a clinic in Ealing in London in 2018. And at the time, campaigners hoped that that would soon become the norm, that other

local authorities would quickly follow suit. But in those four years, as you've already mentioned, only two other councils have followed, and that's in Richmond, in London, and in Manchester. And that's despite many areas, including Bournemouth, which is a particularly strong example, saying that they really need one to protect patients, staff and their loved ones. And so the key question here is why have these places not been as successful in getting these buffer zones implemented? Well, I think that what we found is that there does need to be an evidential threshold to met, but different councils view that level of evidence differently. In the case of Bournemouth, they've been handed more than 600 pieces of what campaigners and staff call evidence. We've seen nine folders from the BPAS clinic there that included

statements from rape victims and people with learning difficulties. That's been shared with the council, but the council, Bournemouth Christ Church and Poole Council, says the situation is under consistent view and if the evidential threshold is met, formal action will be considered. So currently they're saying there isn't enough evidence. The question for all those gathering evidence, and it's not just in Bournemouth,

I've heard of examples in Leeds, there's action taking place in Birmingham. The question for all those gathering evidence is how many women need to feel harassed before action is taken? And actually, what many people have told me is actually the harassment of women is almost accepted in some cases. The thing that will sort of tip the argument is if residents are affected by it, if they view it as antisocial behaviour, yn rhai achos, y peth a fydd yn gwneud y farn yw os yw'r arwain yn cael ei effeithio, os ydynt yn ei gweld fel ymddygiad antisocial ac os yw'r cyngor yn arbennig yn y mater, yna efallai y byddai hynny'n sicrhau ffwrdd o ddiffyg. Ond mewn gwirionedd, mae hyn yn cael ei weld fel nad ydyn nhw'n gwerthu'i ddewis ar lefel leol. Mae'n amlwg iawn. Mae cyngorau'n fforddol o ddiffyg yn y ffordd ymddygiadol. Byddai'n dweud yn hytrach fod yn

llesiant genedlaethol oherwydd, yn barod, mae'r system hefyd yn creu loteri o ddiffyg. Felly, incredibly stretched resource-wise, they should instead be national legislation because currently the system also creates a postcode lottery. So even if Bournemouth Council do set up a buffer zone, that would effectively just move the gatherings elsewhere to other clinics so other women are affected. So it doesn't really solve the problem is what many would argue. And linked to what you're saying, it's important to stress, isn't it, that this is a devolved issue, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So we were really keen to look at this as a UK-wide issue because things are moving in different parts of the UK differently. So, for example, in Northern Ireland, they're sort of leading the way on this. They recently passed a bill to create buffer zones, but this has been referred to the Supreme Court now, and they're going to decide whether it interferes with the rights to protest.

While in Scotland, the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has pledged to chair a roundtable summit to discuss buffer zones after expressing her support for them. And that's come off the back of calls from rival politicians saying she's not moved quickly enough on that. Meanwhile, in England and Wales, the situation remains under review. So currently the focus is on councils taking that action. Anna Collinson from BBC Newsnight, thank you for joining us on the programme. And if you'd like to catch up with Anna's report, please do pop along to BBC iPlayer online and you can see the full report there. It is four years since journalist and actor Nicky Clark founded the Acting Your Age campaign. Angered by the lack of middle-aged women on stage, on television and indeed in film and rarely

seeing stories of women like herself portrayed, she's attracted a lot of support from women such as Meera Sile, Emma Thompson, Tracey-Ann Oberman, MP Jess Phillips and a number of male actors too. I'm joined now by Nicky Clark on Zoom from her home in Shropshire and actor Juliet Stevenson joins me here in the studio. Welcome to you both. Good to have you on. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Well, Nicky, let's start with you and the roots of this campaign. Why did you launch it? So it was twofold, really. So I'd had tried to restart my acting career at the age of 50, and it was, frankly, ludicrous, I discovered.

I mean, I, like everyone else, believe, you know, that age should be no barrier and that, you know, it shouldn't prevent you from achieving. And yet I found that within the industry that I trained for a couple of decades before all my family caring responsibilities kicked in, that in fact, it is ludicrous for a woman of 50 to try and restart. So I wanted to use the energy that I had and the creativity that I knew that I wanted to pursue, but in a really constructive way, because I found that every time I turned on the TV to sit down and watch a fantastic drama or comedy or even documentary, that the women of my age or who looked similar to me with gray hair and unreconstructed faces just weren't appearing.

That the protagonists of every story were male, they tended to be men in middle age, and their romantic partners on screen were decades younger. So as with anything, once you start to notice it, you need to look at the data out there. And everything I found backed up the fact that for women, with amazing campaigns like Era 5050 by 2020, the evidence and representations of women up to the age of 45 and men were roughly equal. But over the age of 45, representations of women, especially meaningful, leading representations of women over the age of 45, dipped, I mean, to a point where exponentially they just fell away. And it's interesting there, you talked about energy and that's the word that kind of popped out at me because listening to your podcast on this, Mira Seil, the actor, said something that really stayed with me that here I am at that stage, middle aged as one might want to call it, but I have the most to offer, but I can't offer it. And it leads me to my next question.

This isn't about gender, is it? It's not about male actors versus female actors. This is about age, isn't it? Well, actually, it's what I refer to as gendered ageism. So some people prefer sexist ageism. And it actually does fall very much in line with gender and sex and it's for men as I often say with my campaign on screen in the UK men have a whole life and women sadly still in this day and age have a shelf life and I want the young, talented actresses of today who are much in demand to still be the middle-aged, talented, fantastically accomplished actresses and presenters of tomorrow. Well, let's bring in a fantastically accomplished actor now. Welcome to the programme, Juliet. And that line that we just heard there from Nikki, that men have a whole life and women have a shelf life.

Has that been your experience? Well, I mean, I have been lucky. I've been very, very lucky. And I'm involved in this campaign not on my own behalf, because I think I am, you know. But I look around and I see, you know, many, many actresses of my generation, really brilliant, talented women who struggle hugely to find any work at all. And when they do find it so often, you know, some marginal sort of domesticated role of a wife, partner, grandmother, mother, but very, very rarely does a woman of our age group or over 45 have the narrative. It's not her life experience that's been reflected. It isn't her perception of the world or her experiences

that are forming the view of the story or shaping the narrative. They're always there in support, enabling the male protagonist. And that is so, so often the case. So I have been very lucky, but I have to say, even as lucky as I am to keep working, most of the roles I do play with some fantastic exceptions. But most of what I do play is in support of the male protagonist. And I'm very often carrying a tray with a lamb chop in it and saying, you know, you like it with a penny on. And I mean, that that that is very, very often the storyline. And it's just such a loss because I totally agree with Mira, you know, that as you get older, you know, lack of confidence about myself, it all sort of melts

away. You know who you are. And with the knowledge and acceptance of who you are, you are then free to be really courageous in your work and in your life. And that's a kind of liberty that's very, very creative. And that's the creativity that's missing. And just so we get a true sense of how this is impacting women, those women who, as you say, aren't as lucky as you, aren't getting the roles that they want. Are they left unemployed? Are they left seeking a new career? Or do they take jobs, roles rather,

that just make them feel damned, right, rotten? Yeah, absolutely they do. I mean, that's absolutely right. They're either not working and have to try and make a living somewhere else, some other way, or they're having to accept tiny marginal roles that do not in any way speak to the life experience that they have,

the talent that they have and what they have to offer. And also, I think, you know, also this campaign is about audiences just as much. Over 50% of people watching television and film are women over the age of 30 and they're not seeing their experiences reflected. They're not seeing what they know to be true. Not their domesticated experiences, but the experiences of their brains and hearts and loins and every other part of them is not being,

is not reflected in what they're watching. And then, Nicky, just listening there to what Juliet has to say about the audiences, do they have a part to play in changing the conversation here? I mean, you've been working on this for four years. But how do you move the conversation forward? Who needs to fight with you to make sure that there are breakthroughs? Well, I've been really lucky with this campaign.

Fantastic supporters like Juliet, as you mentioned, Julie Graham, the actress Kate McGowan,gowan amanda abington and and on and i'm so uh delighted and grateful to have the female supporters but we have a lot of male supporters david baddiel for example has championed this from the beginning david tennant is hugely supportive of this um michael sheen and and sandeep Bhaskar for example has been phenomenal it was in the first campaign film I made with Juliet and Julie Graham back in 2018 the problem is is as you say much wider so we have we have limited portrayals of women we have very stereotypical bigoted portrayals of older women it's almost as though that is the role for older women

to play in these cameos. And when we're looking at things like this year at the BAFTA TV Awards, there were no women nominated in the best female comedy performance category over the age of 38 in an otherwise diverse category. But in the male category, we had the wonderful brilliant Steve Coogan last year at the BAFTA TV awards there were no leading actresses TV actresses at all over the age of 38 and again with this move for diversity which is so vital and so crucial there is still an emphasis on youth there is not the life experiences of older women and And that bleeds across throughout the whole of society. When Ronnie Spector died at the age of 78, the media had a big push on commemorating her as they should. But they used an image of her from 1977. And that is what women

face. We see that across media. We see that in news in current affairs women are a very high demographic sadly taking their own lives every year the highest category that of female demographics obviously we know it's majority men who sadly take their own lives but in with it amongst women and mental health the issue is not talked about it's not talked about in other areas of representation so then is this about the writing then juliet it is about the writing. It's not talked about in other areas of representation. So then is this about the writing then, Juliet? It is about the writing, but it's really also about the commissioning and the producing and the directing

because that is very often where the power lies. And a programme or a series will be greenlit by executive producers and commissioning editors. And, you know, there are many, many experiences of great writers who've written roles, you know, who've written synopses for a series

or something for telly. And they say, this is a great idea. The execs say, this is a great idea. But can those characters, you know, those women who are sort of 40-something, 50-something, 60-something, can you make them all 20 years younger? Now, that's a really common story to hear.

And some of the writers are coming out saying, I was asked to do this. You know, I'm not going to do it. So we need writers to champion it. And we do need people in positions of power who green light projects also to be doing it. It is fundamentally in the writing because that's where the roles are created. But it's for everybody in the industry to be mindful of it. I think that, you know, progress is on the march in all sorts of ways. But I don't think that age discrimination issues are being addressed in the same way as other issues are.

Here's a question you might not be expecting. To both of you, if you could create a role for yourselves right now to represent your true selves, what would that be? I'll let you think, Juliette, because your jaw is dropping. Nikki? Well, first it's to say, you know, we have no leading actresses in comedy. You think of someone like Sally Phillips, whose generation of, again, Steve Coogan, he's still leading. His career will end when he decides his career will end you know where is smack the pony why has that not been brought back in this wonderful landslide

and also my biggest wish is for our brilliant beautiful amazing juliet stevenson to never again have to say she is lucky to be working we're lucky to have her and actors are never ever asked in interviews and they never ever say in interviews do you know I'm so lucky Tom Cruise 60 years old there at my bus pass age I'm so lucky to be leading the new maverick you know that men don't feel they have to but women constantly we feel we have to apologize and we feel we have to focus everybody else's happiness and comfort first it's time for middle-aged women to know that we matter all women matter at all ages absolutely juliette back to my question yeah doctor who doctor who yeah fantastic fantastic great now look let's um uh brilliant to speak to both of you on this very important subject

and on the subject of representation of women in the media. Yesterday, it was announced that the actress, scriptwriter and director Kay Mellor has died, and some of the works that she penned include Children's Ward, The Syndicate, Band of Gold, The Chase, Girlfriends, Playing the Field and Fat Friends. And she earned an OBE in 2009 and was awarded the

Writers Guild Award for Outstanding Contribution to Writing in 2014. She launched the careers of James Corden, Ruth Jones and Samantha Morton among others and was one of the most influential working class voices in TV shows watched by millions. She came on Woman's Hour back in August 2014 to tell Emma about her show on pregnancy in the club and she shared her own experience of being a teen parent. I was 16 and my mum brought me and my brother up single-handedly. You know, I was from a counsellor's day. It came from very humble beginnings and terrified, basically terrified, and trying to hide it. That was me. I was fortunate I had a boyfriend, Anthony.

We had our secret together. You know, he was 17, I was 16. I should mention you're still with Anthony, 45 years on. Yes, absolutely. Which is amazing. Yeah, I know, it is really. But, you know, we've got so much in common, really. So much, you know, history. And what did your mum say when

you told her well I think she was at first she was really disappointed I suppose because you know I was I was a reasonably clever at school and a bit of an academic I could have gone on and done well but um and of course I had to leave my you know didn't do any GCSEs no nothing I just left really to become a mother because that's what you did then. And in many ways, I felt like, you know, my life was over. I was to become, inverted commas, housewife. So I moved in with Anthony's mum and dad and we slept in Anthony's single bed. And that's where I had Yvonne, actually.

Well, and we should also mention Yvonne worked with you on this programme but it of course wasn't the end of your life because it was just the start. So do say, how did you turn it around? Well, when the girls started to go to school and play school I had a little bit of time before picking them up so I started doing O-levels, GCSEs and A-levels and I started doing drama A-level at Park Lane College.

And this tutor, sadly passed away now, came up to me and he just said, I think you should think about taking this up seriously. And I went, whoa. I went, you know, I'm 25. I'm old, you know, because that's what I thought then. And he went, no, he said, I'm going to get you a prospectus. And he gave me the prospectus for Bretton Hall College. And he helped me fill the form and everything. And the next thing I knew, I'd got an interview to go there. And I got a place. I got a place to study drama for three years at Bretton Hall College. It was absolutely amazing.

The screenwriter Kay Mellor, who died on Sunday and is survived by her husband Anthony and their two daughters Yvonne and Gayna. Juliette just a brief word on how important Kay was in terms of representation when it comes to women on screen. Oh so so important it's so so sad she was you know 71 is no age and she's just such an inspirational role model I think you know that well you've just heard her tell her own story age and she's just such an inspirational role model, I think, you know. Well, you've just heard her tell her own story. I mean, she's a completely self-made person. And, you know, she, working class woman, got herself an education late.

And then Granada TV, I think, gave her her first, I think I'm right in saying, gave her her first job. So, you know, great that they gave this young single mother. No, sorry, she was parenting with Anthony, wasn't she? But I mean, great that they gave this young single mother um no sorry she was she was parenting with Anthony wasn't she but I mean great that they gave her that that opportunity and look you know so she's been writing amazing roles well for men and women ever since and um and I think an incredible role model and what what a great shame that she hasn't got another 10 or 20 years of life to keep writing yeah Juliet Stevenson thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. Thank you. When you hear the word nun, what do you think? Perhaps an older woman in a wimple living in a convent not allowed to go out or have modern gadgets, such is the stereotype

that many of us think of. But thanks to social media, nuns from across the world are sharing what it's really like to be part of a religious order. So how does the modern life of technology and social media fit with religious life? And what is it actually like to be a nun? Joining me now are two women who are both nuns in different ways whom you might recognise. Sister Monica Clare is the mother superior of the community of St. John the Baptist in New Jersey in the United States. And Siobhan McSweeney is the actress who plays the brilliant Sister Michael in the sitcom Derry Girls. Welcome to you both.

It's great to be here. Thank you. Good to have you on with us. Sister Monica, Claire, let's start with you first. I think we need to start at the beginning of this story because you used to live in Los Angeles before you were a nun, and it was a very different life, wasn't it? It was certainly a very different life. It's about as far away from a convent as you could possibly imagine. I worked in entertainment advertising in Hollywood for 20 years as a photo editor. And it was a very interesting thing to be a closet religious person in the midst of all these non-believers, unchurched people. Los Angeles is not exactly a very churchy town.

So I was a weirdo. I didn't drink. I didn't do drugs. I didn't party, anything like that. So sometimes people would joke around with me and say, are you one of the Osmonds or something? Like, what's going on with you? And then you made the transition to becoming a nun to religious life. That's right. I had been called ever since I was a little girl, like seven or eight years old,

but I found that it was very culturally unacceptable for a woman to make that choice. I grew up in the South, in Georgia, and we were expected to get married and have kids. That was the traditional women's role. So my family, my friends, nobody was open to the idea of me becoming a nun. So I just suppressed it and tried to be normal for the next, you know, 40-something years of my life. And at one point, I just decided I can't pretend to be normal anymore. I'm going to do this crazy countercultural thing of joining a convent and rejecting the women's roles that were sort of being forced on me all my life. And it's the best decision I've ever made. The reason we invited you on, Sister Monica Clare, is because you post these tremendously entertaining videos about convent life on social media,

on the platform TikTok. First of all, how did you discover TikTok? Well, I had heard of it and I thought it was for, you know, like 11 and 12 year old kids dancing and playing pranks on each other. I really didn't think there were any adults on this format. And then one of my friends who used to be my photo assistant in Hollywood called me up and he said you got to get on TikTok it's wonderful and I was going why I'm not a kid he said no there are grown-ups on there and they're really a few yeah and he lured me in by saying there are lots of funny cat videos on TikTok. So that was it for me. So I started watching. Yeah, you started to watch the cat videos. I did. And then you thought, hey, I can

do this too. That's right. The cat videos were sort of the gateway drug for me to start watching other videos. And I realized I could adjust the algorithm. And then I found all these pastors and priests and some nuns on there. I was really impressed. So I thought, wow, this is great that they're doing this. And maybe I could do this. I even asked my therapist, do you think it would be weird if I started making videos on TikTok? And my therapist said, go for it. That's a fantastic idea. And now you've got thousands of followers because they love what you're doing. You are posting videos of how you live your life. So everything from recipes to pranks to dancing to viral trends

to riding lawnmowers, playing basketball. One of your most popular ones is about what you can fit into your nun pocket. I mean, how deep are those pockets? They're huge. They're the size of a paperback book and not even a small paperback. Like you could carry a couple of books in these pockets. Absolutely. I mean, you've talked about having a Swiss Army knife in there.

Sweets, lip balm, a pencil, pen holder, wipes, tissues, devotional objects, migraine medication, and plenty more. I need to ask you, what kind of a reaction have you had from people? I'm overwhelmed at how positive the reaction has been because there can be a lot of negativity towards organized religion and nuns. And some of it is really justified because organized religion, a lot of people have been traumatized by it and they're really trying to recover from that. But I was shocked that I got any followers at all because I'm such a niche as an Anglican communion nun. Most people have no idea that we even exist.

And to have 161,000 people interested in my videos about what's in my pocket and what we eat on Good Friday, I was astonished and really pleased. The response has been so positive that it gave me a little bit more faith in what's out there on social media. Women in particular are my biggest demographic. I'd say 90% of my followers and viewers are women and they're either from the millennial or Gen X age groups. Oh, interesting. Do stay with us, Sister Monica Clare. I want to introduce you to Siobhan McSweeney, who's also a nun on screen, but of course not in real life. You are the fictional nun, Sister Michael from Derry Girls. He was captured the public's imagination. Would Sister Michael go on to TikTok?

No. Put bluntly. Just tell us about how the role came to be and what drew you to it. I think in direct contrast to Sister Monica on the line there, I think Sister Michael is a nun to not spread the word, to keep away from people, to be cloistered away. And I think her particular burden is that she has been placed in a school in Northern Ireland, an all-girls school in the 90s and a Catholic girls' school. And she very much is a reluctant teacher there and a reluctant headmistress.

The role came about from Lisa McGee's own experience growing up in the 90s in Northern Ireland. And I think she's an amalgamation of various teachers. And also, I think in Irish society, what a Catholic nun represents as well. You know, I was not taught by nuns. I've never knowingly met one apart from virtually right now. Hello, sister. She's giving you a big wave. Yes, wave right back. I had to laugh when you said that nuns have deep pockets because in Ireland, that is certainly the case that Irish nuns do have very deep pockets. And there's a very interesting conversation trying to get them to share

what's in their pockets right now. So I think what's interesting about Sister Michael is that she's very totemic. She's very iconic of what an Irish experience would be. You talk about Lisa McGee's personal experience as being so central to this storytelling. Do you think that's why the series has been so successful? Because it really comes

from a place of authenticity. I think so. I think there are a few reasons why Derry Girls has been successful. First and foremost, is the quality of the writing and the quality of the jokes. It's extraordinarily done.

Secondly, I have learned that the more specific and authentic an experience is, the more universal more universally it can be enjoyed. And thirdly, I think there was an audience waiting for Derry Girls. I think they're to sort of continue the conversation

that Nicky and Juliet were talking so eloquently about, like representation, frankly, and I believe that there was an audience waiting for a comedy with deep heart, deep intellect and deep authenticity about a population that's neglected. And not only is it a neglected population with regards to geography,

but we're talking about a demographic as well. Girls had no role models, comedic role models, really to look at. And they would be the sort of the Egypts in their own lives. You know, they would be the satellite to the Egypt. We never got to play the main Egypt in our own lives. And I think with Derry Girls, the gang of girls, and I include, of course, the We English fellow always in that,

they get to be the main Egypt's in their own lives. So there was an audience waiting for it. There was an audience waiting to see women be silly, women be stupid, women be centre of their own lives and women run households and run run schools and run their own lives. So, you know, it was a combination of all these factors that have made it so successful. I mean, I get letters from all over the world and I'm like, how can you respond to Derry girls? And they are, they identify with it completely. And I think that's a really special thing. Have any nuns got in touch with you? Not to my knowledge, but I'm sure you'd be able to, you know, the disguise is quite, they could be right here.

I don't know, ninja nuns, they could be right here jumping down off the studio ceiling. No, no, they haven't gotten in touch. Can I talk about the word fun? Because Sister Monica, you're clearly having fun. And Siobhan, you are a sterning character, certainly as Sister Michael. But is she much fun to play? Oh, my God. She's amazing to play.

It is the best character I have ever, ever played. And I don't know, Sister, if you would. I mean, I presume you wouldn't agree with this, but there's a certain amount of I've said that she is also the sexiest character I've ever played because I find confidence. I'm trying to look at you there on the screen. We need to get a response, but go ahead. Yeah, I find playing somebody who's so herself and has no filter and is so confident in herself and in her way in the world is a deeply sensual experience, actually. Do you know what I mean? Like if you feel at ease in the world, it's a beautiful thing.

And Sister Michael has never been anything other than herself. Sister Monica, I've got to give you a chance to respond to that. The fun, the sensuality. Yeah, I mean, I can really understand what you're saying there because one thing that I've read and learned about TikTok as opposed to other social media is that people are responding to authenticity. And this is a not heavily curated bunch of content. It's just people being awkward, being themselves, bad lighting, bad cinematography. And people are drawn to that because Instagram was so curated and perfect, especially women on Instagram. They had these

perfect bathing suit pictures and things like that. And on TikTok, I've noticed that a lot of people are just being themselves. And it's fascinating. It's a lot more interesting to me to see authenticity and especially with women to take away all those masks that we usually are forced to wear and just be ourselves. Let's look ahead for you, Siobhan, because Series 3 ended yesterday. There's a special episode tonight. What an exorcist to Michael. They're even called for a spin offoff aren't they? Yeah I mean it's you've caught me on such a weird day on such a it's it's the end it's the end of an era and it's the end of something very beautiful and powerful and moving and I think the combination of watching last night's last episode of the last ever series and then tonight with the hour-long special oh lads i mean i i'm not ready for it and i know

what's going to happen um i think when you watch tonight which you should watch tonight you'll understand why it can't you know we're done now we're done now and i'm immensely grateful to sister michael and to rawhide and to all her oddness and the privilege of being able to play her. Yeah. What's next for her? I don't know. I wish her well, whatever she gets up to. Thank you so much.

Siobhan McSweeney and Sister Monica Clare, we wish you both well with whatever lies ahead in your media careers. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you both and hearing about your various stories and experiences, especially you, Sister Monica, on social media. I should have your handle to hand, but I can certainly get people to give you a search

and check out your very entertaining videos. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you to all of you for joining us here for BBC Women's Hour. We are back again tomorrow. And don't forget to catch up when any of our auditions do go to BBC Sounds. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hi there. I'm just popping up to let you know about another Radio 4 podcast that you may be interested in, especially if, like me, your social media feeds are constantly bombarding you with

adverts that are hyping up the latest wonder products, promising you the world. You know the ones. Personalised vitamin plans to make you healthier. A pair of sustainable jeans to make you greener. NFTs to earn you millions. I am on a mission to find out the facts behind the fads. I'm Greg Foot and my BBC Radio 4 podcast Sliced Bread is back to ask if another batch of these wonder products really are the best things since sliced bread. If you'd like to know about manuka honey

or mosquito repellent or mindfulness apps or if you've got something you'd like me to investigate for you just go search for sliced bread on BBC Sounds. who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.