Woman's Hour - Helen Lewis on Difficult Women, elder abuse in care homes, the National Women's Register

Episode Date: February 28, 2020

Helen Lewis discusses her new book ‘Difficult Women: a history of feminism in 11 fights’ and why she believes that today’s feminists could gain from being more generous to the feminists of previous generations.A new Care Quality Commission report says that in a three month period in 2018, 899 sexual incidents or incidents of alleged sexual abuse were reported that took place in adult social care services such as residential and nursing homes. Elderly women were the ones most at risk. Jenni is joined by Veronica Gray, deputy CEO for Action On Elder Abuse to discuss their concerns.Dorka Herner studied psychology at university before becoming a TV journalist in Hungary. After having five children, she decided to change career and write a book ‘Inspired Parenting’ about what she had learnt as a mother. How do you become a more patient parent? How do you share attention between all of your children? And, what are the most common flashpoints in a crowded house? In 1960, a Guardian article on the isolation of mothers in suburbia sparked a network of women to meet up. There was only one rule: no talking about children or housework. The National Women’s Register as it’s become known is still going strong with members all over the country. Jenni talks to its national organiser Natalie Punter and to one of its trustees Jo Thompson, who’s a member of her local group in Leighton Buzzard in Bedfordshire, about how the organisation and its groups have changed over the years.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Ruth Watts

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 28th of February. It's 60 years since an article in The Guardian about the isolation of young mothers in suburbia sparked what began as the Housebound Wives Register, became the National Housewives Register and is now the National Women's Register. What has it achieved? Difficult Women, a history of feminism in 11 fights.

Helen Lewis writes about the women who changed the world by not being nice. And inspired parenting, the Hungarian psychologist Dóka Herner on becoming a patient parent. A report by the Care Quality Commission has just been released and reveals some alarming details of alleged sexual abuse cases which have taken place in adult social care services such as nursing and residential homes. In a three-month period during 2018, 899 such incidents were reported and elderly women have been found to be most at risk. I'm joined by Veronica Ray who's the Deputy Chief Executive of Action on Elder Abuse and joins us from Belfast. Veronica, how big a problem do you reckon the sexual abuse of vulnerable adults in social care is? Good morning, Jenny, and thank you for addressing this important

issue this morning. The reality is, as reflected in the CQC report, sexual incidents are happening on a daily basis, on average seven a day within adult social care. So it is critical that we address this issue. But it is also important to note that allegations of sexual abuse in this notification period made up only 3% of total notifications. So we must balance the two angles. It is a serious concern that older women in particular are being subject to sexual assault in residential care. And we do need to address that.

And we're delighted that CQC have invested the time and resource in bringing this very hidden issue into the public domain. Who's doing the abuse, Veronica? Is it fellow residents or is it staff? The report identifies almost half of all incidents that were notified and categorised as allegations of sexual assault were carried out by residents with only 16% containing

allegations against employed staff or visiting workers. So what we're seeing here is resident on resident incidents. So how could things be improved? I think there are a number of issues that we need to address. We need to end

the closed culture around sex and sexuality and sexual abuse within the adult social care sector. So we need to bring these issues to the fore and we need to stop shying away from having those difficult conversations. I think it is absolutely essential that providers and leaders across adult social care develop that culture where staff can talk about these issues

and raise concerns. It is also important that we have guidance for staff supported by robust training and we also believe that CQC should continue to improve the system of provider notification. How are homes actually monitored? CQC implements a process of monitoring and inspection of all adult social care and so they are the regulator there and in the lead in that sense but why why then on a day-to-day basis are people whether they're fellow residents or staff getting away with this yes uh there is an issue around staff and their confidence in identifying and reporting incidents. There is also an issue around providers reporting on and notifying CQC. There is a massive training and education need in the sector at the moment, and we would be recommending that providers consider how they can address that as we move forward to eradicate this issue.

It is absolutely, utterly devastating for anyone who is affected by sexual abuse, and in particular older people. And in these cases that we're looking at, we're looking at people with dementia, people with serious medical and health issues. So the impact of this is utterly devastating and we must get out of this situation where we're afraid to discuss the tough issues. Now, the report mentions what you just mentioned,

this idea of the intolerance of older people being able to be open about their sexuality. Why is that the case? Why can people not talk about their sexuality in that kind of place? I think that that's reflected right across society, really, whether older people are living in residential car or in their own homes in the community. I think that sex and sexuality

among the older age group is something that we just generally don't talk about. I think older people in particular are extremely private. The report though does highlight some really good examples of good practice. For example one older man had a photograph of another man beside his bed. And only through a long process with well-trained and committed staff, that older gentleman was able to actually finally declare that he was gay and he had never come out to his own family. So that's an example of really good practice, where staff are engaged, open to the conversation and asking the right

questions. So we need to see more of that. What sort of training is available for staff to ensure that they are aware of that kind of thing? We have had adult safeguarding, law, policy and practice for many, many years. But unfortunately, often training is where we fall down in adult social care. So we would like to see heavy investment in training, but also in guidance. We need to see the production of guidance for not only care workers, but also leaders across adult social care.

Staff should be empowered to talk about sexuality with residents. They should be empowered to raise concerns about safety as well. Now there will be people listening who are concerned about relatives or friends who are in care homes. We've heard of course of some families using video cameras to monitor their relatives. What can you do if you're worried i think the first port of call would be to call our free phone helpline 0808 8808 8141 and that's free to call and entirely confidential and our helpline staff will be able to give advice and guidance on signs of um abuse but also self-protection as well. And that would be the first thing I would recommend.

Veronica Gray, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. And we will put details of where you can go if you're looking for help on the Woman's Hour website. It'll be a little later, but it will be there eventually. Now, we became aware of the term difficult woman when Ken Clark used it to describe Theresa May and now the journalist Helen Lewis has used it as the title of her book subtitled A History of Feminism in 11 Fights. She writes about all the feminist battles that have begun to change the world for women from divorce through the vote, work, safety, education, abortion, detailing the difficult women who fought in a way that could only be achieved by not falling

into the stereotype of being nice. Some examples are Harriet Harman, Maureen Cahoon, J. Ben Desai, and Erin Peetsey, who of course opened the first women's refuge in 1971. We're really talking about brutal assault, not the odd slap or an isolated punch. But I think, to give you a sort of example, a husband who, when he gets drunk, comes home to this particular woman and he takes her by the shoulders, batters her head against the wall. Then, when she's unconscious, he puts her head under the coal tap

and then he does it again. This is the kind of violence that we have here. And I think all women who come have always been serious cases. We've never had a woman coming in and complaining of the odd stray punch, even though I don't approve of the odd stray punch. What are you able to do for them that social services or whatever can't do for them? Won't do, not can't. I mean, their policy is that they will not make a judgment on a marriage.

And also, any woman coming to them who's been beaten is left home voluntarily, which is rather ironic, and therefore she's not entitled to any sort of rehousing. The police won't help because their policy is not to interfere in marital arguments. They do advise the wife to take a summons out, but they completely ignore the fact that if she does, she'll get doubly beaten because she's got nowhere to run to.

In fact, what we offer is a refuge. No man can come into this house without an invitation, and if he does try, the police will take him. Even if you want to say that a husband and wife, if they're in this situation together, it is a problem they must solve, what about the children? It seems extraordinary in this day and age that if a man beats his dog the RSPCA will be after him. If he beats his children

the NSPCC will look after him. If he beats his wife nobody will help her. We are here to ask you to put pressure on TUC to cut off vital services to George Ward and to support the resumption of mass picketing, which we do not want to do, but we have no other alternatives. Well, I'm a politician. I expect to win or lose on a national swing. Therefore, apart from the disappointment of not being in the House, which was a very enjoyable and rewarding experience. That is my situation I've just lost on the swing. How much do you think the result was influenced by the fact that you acknowledge that you are a lesbian?

Not at all. And this has been one of the good things about the campaign. I think it's been my happiest campaign yet. And I heard an enormous amount of goodwill and support from the Labour voters. You really got a good reaction on the doorstep? A very good reaction indeed, and a very unbigoted one. And I think it was a very important election for gay people because it did show them that to be out and to be open was the best way of carrying through any job that they want to be in.

When I first came into politics, people said, don't start going on about women, or they'll just pigeonhole you as just going on only about women. And I said back to them, but if I don't do it, and 97% of the MPs are men, who is going to do it? There were a great number of issues which you just couldn't get a hearing on because it was really politics as a sort of men only activity. And so when we tried to, when people like Joe Richardson tried to raise domestic violence, when I tried to raise in the House of Commons childcare, because it was such an overwhelmingly male establishment, we couldn't get heard. If we raised it once, people pretended they hadn't heard it. The second time you raised it, why is she going on about it? Has she got a problem?

And the third time you raised it, well, they just went into opposition to it. Helen Lewis, what do you mean by difficult? I mean, two different things. The first is the idea that you have to write a history of feminism without airbrushing. And the temptation is because you want to be inspirational, you want to find role models to just quietly sand the edges off and kick some things under the carpet and not talk about them openly. And the second thing is, I think, as you said in your introduction, revolutionaries are not generally nice. If you are a kind of easygoing person who just wants to get on with your life and have a quiet life, you know, that's great. And that's, I think, what most people are like. But those kind

of personality types are not the ones who throw themselves under a horse or, you know, go to prison or start the first women's refuge with no money and just a council house and essentially kind of squat it for several years, you know, just stick two fingers up to authority and get on and do stuff. Now, second wave feminists had a mantra, the personal is political. How much are you following that pattern by writing about your own divorce? I thought it was important to start there because for me I had always been kind of a good girl you know I'd got I'd done well at school I'd gone to university I'd you know everything

was going right as it looked like and this was the first decision I'd made that really put me at odds you know disappointed people that I knew it was it was hard I was very lucky my ex-husband is a brilliant person and it was very civil but it did make me think this could be very nasty if I needed to walk out like you know I didn't have any money I didn't have the support you know what is it like for people who don't have a bank account what is it like for people who are leaving an abusive relationship you know it's only 1991 that rape in marriage was criminalized and that to me was a thing to say well look you know everything looks great here but actually let's dig into this and how far have we really come?

And I think if you talk about your own experiences, it does make people connect with you, because I do now have people coming up to me all the time going, I too got divorced before I was 30, let me tell you all about it. And this has always been something that I think feminism has done, has provided a place for women to talk about personal experiences that are seen as shameful. So often things to do with their body, you know, to talk about menopause,

to talk about childbirth, to talk about incontinence, all of these things that are part as shameful. So often things to do with their body, you know, to talk about menopause, to talk about childbirth, to talk about incontinence, all of these things that are part of everyday female experience that really struggle to get airtime. Now, in the chapter on divorce, you write about Caroline Norton, who is not very well known. So what did she achieve? Luckily, Laura Wade, I think, is writing,

the playwright behind Posh and other things and The Watsons, is writing a drama about her. So I hope she will become soon very much better known. But she was kind of a snob, which I think is difficult to atone for now. She was married to quite a high ranking man. She was accused of sleeping with the prime minister of the time. How things change. Lord Melbourne.

And he tried to sue his wife essentially for divorce for adultery, as it was called then, criminal conversation. Now, she won the case. She wasn't convicted of adultery. But that meant, of course, there were wife essentially for divorce for adultery as it was called then criminal conversation now she won the case she wasn't convicted of adultery but that meant of course there were no grounds for divorce and that meant she had to stay married to the quite awful George I mean everybody did really seem to take her her side in this and it also meant that she couldn't see her children um for years and years and years so she began to fight for the rights of mothers to see their children and that was really important you know I'm not going to airbrush Caroline Norton. She didn't believe in equality. She thought that women were the clouded moon to that son of their husband.

But she thought, you know what, they should be allowed to see their children even after they've separated from the father of them. There are a number of women in the book whose views in certain directions now seem abhorrent. Sophia Jess Blake's class prejudice is one that you mentioned. Mary Stokes' interest in eugenics. Why were you keen to make them known and, in a way, restore their reputation? I think, for me, it's about separating out achievement from likeability. And the idea, I think, as well, if you airbrush these people,

then you begin to wonder why everything in politics now seems so squalid. Why are there so many compromises? Why can't we have what we want? Why can't we be pure? And I certainly feel that feminism has always got a tendency, like many other social justice movements, to have kind of a purity politics where no one is good enough. And I think it's really important, therefore, to say, you know what, the history of feminism is a history of people ranging from imperfect to making bad strategic decisions, through to having views that were even at the time outlandish and abhorrent, and certainly we'd think of them now. And what matters really about the history of feminism is what they got done. And

actually, today, it doesn't matter if you don't like everybody around you, what is it? What do you want? And how are you going to achieve it? You're going to have to make alliances with people that you wouldn't spend time with voluntarily. It's been interesting in recent years that second wave feminists have been really derided. Why do you think that happened with the younger generation of women? I think a lot of it is flat-out ageism.

I mean, I certainly felt when I started this, I kept being surprised that older women were as radical. You'd meet women you thought were very softly spoken and looked, you know, nana-ish, and then they'd turn out to have had incredible pasts. So the women I talked to in the abortion chapter, Kitty Collette and Diana in Derry, bought abortion pills on the internet

and handed themselves into a police station. And I thought, oh, that's kind of, you know, what a strange thing to come to so later in life. And then Diana said, well, we were involved in anti-arms deal protests against Raytheon, the arms company. You know, they had a lifetime of activism behind them. Quite famously, you know, Rosa Parks is always depicted as this sweet old lady who wouldn't give up her seat on the bus. Well, she'd actually been an organiser for years and years. She had a proper embedding in activism. But I think also it She had a proper embedding in activism. But I think also it comes down to a big change in feminism.

You know, the big legal fights about women and men being taken equally, some of those have been done. You know, the things like the Sex Discrimination Act, the Equal Pay Act. Obviously, enforcing them is a different issue. But, you know, in your 20s, you can work like a man. You know, you can do the late hours. You can take the job that is away from home. You can travel.

And all of that kind of changes when you're 30s, you know, when four out of five women will end up having children. And suddenly at that point, the mediocre man gets promoted above you because he hasn't taken time out of the workforce. And there's this kind of assumption, particularly when we talk about transgender things. I think younger feminists say, why are you so obsessed with biology? And I think it's quite easy to say that at 19. It's harder to say that biology hasn't got anything to do with feminism after you've had a miscarriage, after you've needed an abortion, after you've gone through the menopause, all of those things that accumulate during your life that are to do with having a female body. Now, we heard earlier from Erin Pitsey, who, of course course became an advocate of the men's rights movement,

having been so famous for setting up the first women's refuge. What struck you when you met her about how she looks back on the work she did on violence against women? I think what struck me is that there was an interesting kernel of truth about what she says, which is it is hard for male victims of domestic violence because there are exceptions. You know, lots of relationships are dysfunctional on both sides. That doesn't excuse the side that becomes much more violent. But actually, if you're trying to look at how you make those relationships better, you might want to look at them as a whole. But what struck me about her was that she became further and further radicalised towards this now very extreme position where I think, you know, she really tried to bring down other refuge organisations

because she felt that they were too feminist and she was no longer part of the feminist movement. And what's interesting is about how much of that is about an ideological position in her analysis of domestic violence, how much is that she wanted to define herself against other women and she didn't want to be like them, and it was about personality. And as you said before, the personal is political and those things are totally indivisible in feminism.

But she's not alone in this. I mean, why do you suppose often women have been reluctant, like her, to ally themselves with the feminist movement and embrace and analyse its ideas about patriarchy? Well, no-one's in charge of feminism, which is both its strength and its weakness. So unlike a political party, there's no way to kick out people with extreme fringe views.

And for people who are opposed to feminism, it's very easy to paint it and caricature it by its wildest members. You know, that happens in the 70s, with a kind of Maoist and Stalinist, as she would say, or lesbian separatism as an idea. It's happening now with people who want to, you know, still follow the ideas of abolishing the nuclear family. And to other people, those seem like very fringe ideas and they don't want to be associated with that fringe. And if feminism gets painted as something other than a mainstream opinion, I think people feel the pressure on them to go, you know, I believe in equality, but I'm not a feminist because that's quite wild. That's man-hating. And for me, talking about, you know, the very bread and butter issues

of feminism is vital because this is stuff that doesn't just affect white women or university educated women or elite women. You know, things like unpaid caring labour affect huge, basically all women at some point in their life, whether it's their parents or their children or relatives, these are not elite niche preoccupations. Now, in the chapter on love, you include Maureen Cahoon, who we also heard from. Why did she have to be included as a difficult woman? Well, I think she made a decision that was very difficult,

which was the decision to come out as a lesbian, which wasn't slightly taken out of her hands. She was outed by a newspaper. But what she then did is even braver, more controversial. I still don't quite know how I feel about it. When Enoch Powell gave a speech on race, she said, she was a Labour Party politician, the Labour Party kind of talks a good game,

but it doesn't actually deliver. And actually, maybe Enoch Powell is saying some things, some hard truths that we need to hear. Now, this was represented as her being a race baiter in fact she's got a track record of you know of making sure that immigrant families weren't put down housing registers for example and so it was a very hard case to make if you looked at what she'd actually done in politics but it was that classic thing of everybody else in the party felt she'd uttered a truth they didn't want to go to you know the Labour Party was an anti-racist party and they were desperate to prove their own anti-racist credentials. And so kind of denouncing her was quite a good way to do that. So she

was quite lonely and isolated. She was deselected and then reselected. And as you heard in that clip, you know, she has a very nuanced view of what lesbianism did to her career. You know, she says it definitely affected it. But also when I said, you know, do you regret it? She said, no, because I'm, I was relieved, actually, when I came out. And I think that's something that is something that I heard from a lot of women, that actually living their, you know, they're living their life, living their principles was difficult. But it was also incredibly rewarding, because they weren't squashing themselves into a box that didn't fit them. Now, it's often said that feminism should now be concerning itself with women in Saudi

Arabia with female genital mutilation which of course it does concern itself with and that people shouldn't be trivial about things. You introduced Teskil and Anakut and their effort was for drinking in a bar. Why are they in there as difficult women? Well, in the 1980s in Elvina, the bar on Fleet Street, you couldn't get served at the bar if you were a woman. You had to go to the back. And one of them was a young lawyer. He said, you know, proper lawyers don't go and get waited on like that. It was kind of a diminishing thing.

And so they enlisted some male friends. They tried to get one of them to wear a kilt to make the point. He refused, unfortunately. And they came in and put a briefcase on the bar because the argument was we can't serve women at the bar because their handbags will clutter up the place. And they got their evidence of sex discrimination. And that seems like an incredibly trivial example. But I think to any one of my age or younger, the idea that, you know, there's this kind of version of gender apartheid, really, that there were just different rules for men and women spaces you weren't allowed into you know there were working men's clubs that just had you know rooms that you can't go into there are still gentlemen's clubs now that you know what ladies can drink in the in the saloon um and i think that kind of stuff is really hard to bring back for younger generations that there was an invisible code that just said

you were a second class citizen and that went from everything from not being able to borrow your own money through to just tiny things like not being able to go to the pub. And it might look like a trivial example, but it is the idea that it's encoded in law that there's something different and lesser about you as a woman. Now you end with a manifesto for difficult women and you encourage her to find herself some more difficult women what should they be difficult about now i think uh unpaid caring labor as you were just talking about earlier is the big one because it underlies everything else if you haven't got the time

to organize then you can't you kind of really can't do anything else and child care is now phenomenally expensive you know and and lots of women i think who would probably like to spend more time with their children can't and people who've got elderly parents also face this incredible lottery of just not knowing how much that's going to cost in the time and i think that for me is the issue that's behind all the other issues is if you don't have enough time how can you do anything else and women women's time is valued less than men's. We know that. They do more housework, they get less leisure time. And that, you know, from the suffragettes used to talk about the fact

no cause can be won between dinner and tea. You know, it's really important for political organising to have the time. Helen Lewis, thank you for your time this morning. And I'll just repeat that the book is called Difficult Women, A History of Feminism in 11 Fights. Thank you very much for being with us. Now still to come in this morning's programme, the 60th anniversary of what began as the Housebound Wives Register became the National Housewives Register and is now the National Women's Register, still going strong. And the final episode of the serial, The Quarry Wood. And by the way, a week today, next Friday,

in advance of International Women's Day on the 8th of March, we'll be at the South Bank Centre in London for the 10th anniversary of WOW, the annual Women of the World Festival. Now, there are so many things your children do that can drive you to distraction. They won't wear the clothes you've put out for them. They will not have a bath when you insist it's time.

They argue and scrap with each other and send your temper over the edge. Dorca Hanna is a Hungarian psychologist who has five children and has written Inspired Parenting. Dorky, you suggest in the book that it's good to fight. What do you mean? Most parents are trying to stop their children fighting. I encourage us parents to fight in front of our children

and to make up. Because I think if we don't give a model to this, they won't have tools. And they will think that if there is anger, and if there is anger, there is no love. And I think if we show that it's life, if there is anger and love together, they won't be afraid of anger. What prompts arguments among your five children?

Well, food and, you know, what every one of us has at home. So nothing special. But I think what's really interesting that we are all in the same boat, but the story under the story is different. So why they are arguing, or why do I argue? Why am I angry at them? Because they are lying on the couch and they are texting and playing on the phone or reading. So when I find this, for example, I always try to find a deeper layer, the story under the story. And if there is a question outside, I try to find the answer in me.

And I use self-knowledge as a tool. So how do you deal with it if the child is lying on the sofa, texting, texting, texting, and your immediate response is, oh, for goodness sake, get up and do something active, go out and play a game. What would you do? Yeah, first I say the same. And after when I have three or four minutes or seconds,

I try to think about myself. Why do a kid lying on a couch bothers me? Do I have a problem with doing nothing? Or that's the first that I found. Then the second one is it's painful when I can't connect with them. I can't be in connection. And when they are reading or they really much and they are, you know, in their phones, I can get in touch. And when I find this, so it's when I find my judgment that I judge resting, I can work on that.

And I start to do that. I start to do meditations and I start to put it in my therapy and I start to work in that, in my inner space or in myself because I think I won't be dependent on them, you know, so I can change things inside and I have to deal with that. I have to learn to rest. You write in the book that you discovered after your fourth child was born that nobody could make you happy. What did you mean by that and why was it a turning point? Yeah, it was really interesting. It was an aha moment. So before that, I felt a lot of anger when somebody did something what was not good for me. Like maybe I was angry at my husband or at my parents or at my kids.

And there was a word, a sentence that came into my mind. Nobody will make me happy. And I was so angry. And I stopped and And I said, wow, that's fantastic. Because I can make myself happy. So I'm not dependent. And since then, I don't have that much expectations. And the other thing is another great thing related to this that I think our children can make themselves happy. So I try my best. That's the most I can do. I try to be the best mom I can. And they can change their lives when they get older. Now, your mother is Agnes Garrel, an independent midwife who in 2010, and we reported on it, was imprisoned for two years for attending home births, which were illegal at the time. What impact did that have on your family life?

Well, it was a really tough period. I was a single mom with three sons, and my twins were six and a a half and I had a four-year-old. And I had to be there for them. I was alone. And meanwhile, I was traumatized. So I suffered. But I had to act really fast because children can feel much better than we can, because they, their brains wired differently and they use feelings more than thoughts to, to, to navigate their self in the world. So I have to act fast because they can feel anything. And I had to, and they can ask anything. So they are, they ask everything. And I didn't want to lie. So it was hard to tell them what I told them the truth that I tried to tell it simply and gently. And that's what we can do everybody can be in the same similar situation because divorce and death when we are traumatized traumatized traumatized okay

traumatized okay difficult thank you thank you for helping me so, so I was simple and I was honest and I said, your grandma was put in a jail and, uh, she loves you so much and she's a good person. And, uh, I don't know when she will come home and, and I'm struggling. So I was honest and I said, you know, I'm your mom, but I'm a child. Your grandma is my mother and I'm worried and I feel pain. And it was so tough, but I think our children

don't want someone who, don't want us to be strong. They want us to be available and reliable. Dorca Hannah thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning and I'll repeat the title of the book it's Inspired Parenting thank you very much indeed. Now in 1960 there was an article in The Guardian about the isolation of mothers in suburbia. It prompted a flood of responses and sparked a network of women who wanted to meet others, who were interested in meeting to talk about subjects other than children and how best to get your whites white.

It began as the Housebound Wives Register, then it became the National Housewives Register, and then in 1987 it changed its name it became the National Housewives Register, and then in 1987 it changed its name again to the National Women's Register. It continues as it celebrates its 60th anniversary. Jo Thompson is a trustee and member of the Leighton Buzzard Group

and has been for quite some time. Natalie Punter is the National Organiser of the Register. Natalie, how did it get pulled together initially after that article was published? Well, so our founder, Maureen Nicol, actually received, I think she received about 400 letters immediately following her letter, which was published in The Guardian. And thankfully, she knew a couple of local women who helped her to kind of pull them together. And what they did, they kind of sorted them into regions, picked out the most enthusiastic-sounding women in each pile

and wrote to them and said, can you organise this group of women? And that was kind of how it came together. And so what size were the groups when they started? I mean, have you got one woman in all different parts of the country saying, come and talk? Yes. Well, they were all different. I mean, the one near Mooring was quite big quite quickly,

but some of them were only two or three women to start off with, and they did local promotions and they brought people together but I think the response was so quick and so vast because it was a genuine need that still exists today. Jo what made you join? Because I think I had got past the stage of wanting to do things with little children all the time. And friends said to me, you know, why don't you come along? And it was so nice just to be able to talk about anything else and to make new friends, I think. Did you literally ban talk of children and washing machines and ironing and things like that?

I don't think it was an actual ban, but we certainly discouraged it. And there were so many more interesting things to talk about that it was just an unspoken rule, I think. So what were your meetings like? we had all manner of topics and sometimes the discussions were very heated because people had very different views but it didn't matter everyone always felt that they could say exactly what they wanted to say and uh and you always learned something which was the uh did you have a group leader who would say right this week we're going to talk about politics or a particular book that we've all read? Not in our group. I mean, as Natalie said, every group is different and they plan their programmes in different ways. But I think probably most groups will have a discussion. We have a meeting once a year and plan the

programme for the whole year. So everyone will put forward suggestions and say, how about this, how about that? And we vote, and the ones with the majority votes are the topics that we discuss. So we'll all know for the coming year what we're going to be talking about. Natalie, this may well be a silly question, but why did the title change? Housebound Wives, National Housewives,

and now National women's. Well, I think I think they very quickly found that housebound had some negative connotations even back in the 1960s. And certainly when we changed from housewives to National Women's Register back in the 80s, it was it was part of the second wave feminism movement really i think housewives became a very very unpopular and untrendy title for someone and also in at that period in the 80s women were going back to work after having children so the organization needed to make it clear that actually we're not just for house wives or women who are staying at home anymore. So any woman can join? Any woman can join. You can join a group.

We have discussion groups online. We have a national conference. We have all sorts of things that are going on. So you can join a group or you can just dip in and out. So what's your role as the national organiser then? How do you keep control of all these groups and make sure they follow the way it's supposed to go? Well, I wouldn't do you keep control of all these groups and make sure they follow the way it's supposed to go? Well, I wouldn't say I keep control. I would say that I try and inspire is

probably a better way of looking at my job. I try to pull together the threads. So I organise the national events like the national conference, day conferences. We have a theme, a national theme every year. So this year it's 2020 vision, because obviously it's 2020. And we'll put out discussion topics that people in the groups can use on those. Currently moving into videoing speakers for our members website that members can download and watch. Just providing content really and direction. What distinguishes you then from an organisation like the WI? I think many of our members are members of both actually and find different things from both but actually I think the big difference is the when you come to the National Women's Register

it's about expressing your opinions it's about discussion we do have speakers sometimes but it's not the core business of what we do it's it's um you can't be passive really um in national women's register it's not the it's not the aim the aim is to come and you know express your views um and you know it's more of a book club kind of format so you you will get a topic and you'll go away and do a little bit of research on it and then come informed to the meeting to contribute. Jo how has it helped you over the years? Well I've made some very very good and deep friendships I think that's probably one of the most important things and also have discussed all manner of topics that I might

not have thought about otherwise and certainly certainly going to the conferences, either the day conferences or the annual conferences, you always get very, very interesting speakers and you learn things that perhaps you wouldn't otherwise. I think it's contributed in many ways. I was talking to Helen about time and how little time so many women have. How did you find the time when your children were still relatively young, to go to meetings? Well, I think it's possible to go out in the evening. Either you get a babysitter or you have a willing husband.

It was just a priority. And I was working, and quite a few of the members of our group were working full- or part time. But we wanted to prioritise that time for ourselves. Why is it important, Natalie, that it remains women only still? I think it's a safe space for women. I think even today in our society, women's opinions, particularly those of older women, you know, women over 50, can be not taken seriously or not heard.

And I think it needs to remain a safe space where women can go and express themselves. We have had day conferences and things where we've included men. And actually the women have found that the men talk over them and consider, you know, kind of inherently consider their opinions more relevant so I think it is important that we that we kind of keep it did that surprise you as a woman in my 40s yes it did but I think um I think it's it's really been brought home to me over the last five years or so so if anybody wants to set up a group now, what do they have to do?

If they contact our head office, you can see on our website, which is nwr.org.uk, or give us a ring, then we can help you through any of that. We've got materials and things and volunteers who are around the country who can support in that. And Jo, will you go on and on forever? Quite possibly. I won't carry on being a trustee forever

because I don't think that's a good idea. But certainly I do value membership. And I think it's important to add, you were talking about setting up groups, one can also be an independent member. If you can't find a group nearby or if you just prefer it that way, you can be an independent member, which means you can go to any meetings or communicate with anybody as you wish.

I was talking to Jo Thompson and Natalie Punter. We had lots of response from you on the question of elder abuse in care homes. Philip said, why don't care homes have a formal scheme of voluntary visitors like the prison service does? People who could call without notice and talk to residents confidentially. Children's homes too. Fiona Melrose said, genuine question. Why is the remedy for sexual abuse of the elderly talking about sexuality? Abuse is abuse. And then on Helen Lewis, Naomi said, analysis of feminism and women's progress inspiring and lots of work still to be done jane c wood said hearing the wonderful erin pitsey on woman's hour really took me back i grew up when if a husband beat his wife it was a bit unfortunate but a private matter she really changed attitudes allison, refreshing discussion separating achievement from likability. Paul

writes, my wife and I married in 1969. I was a postgraduate student. My wife was a teacher, yet I had to sign my wife's tax return. Carol said, I was interested to hear your item in, I think it was called Difficult Women, it was, particularly the story about Alvino's Wine Bar. My friend and I once went there in our lunch hour for a drink and we were completely ignored by the staff for about 15 minutes until we decided to leave. I was furious but felt totally helpless, so glad that we weren't the only ones. Richard said, when it comes to the culture of men-only bars, clubs or golf courses, what women need to understand is that they need

not to worry with the fear of missing out. They need to be completely reassured that in not being allowed into a so-called men's only bar or club, they are not missing out on anything at all. In staying away, they would be very sensible. A men's only bar or club is full of the most boring, uninteresting individuals in the whole community. I am a man that enjoys a drink of a social nature, and in my experience, men-only bars are awful places. Even I keep clear of them and take pride in not even thinking about venturing into such dull gatherings of people. And I underline, that came from a man. And then, on the National Women's Register, Judith wrote,

Thank you for all your contributions and don't forget tomorrow it's weekend, Woman's Hour. I'll be talking to the Irish writer Anne Enright whose novel The Gathering won the Man Booker Prize in 2007. We'll discuss her latest novel Actress which tells the story of an Irish theatre legend, Catherine O'Dell, from the perspective of her daughter, Nora. That's four o'clock tomorrow, Saturday. Join me then if you can. Bye-bye.

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