Woman's Hour - Helen O'Hara, International Day of the Girl, photojournalist Anastasia Taylor-Lind on Ukraine

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

The Royal College of Nursing, the world's biggest nurses' union, has a culture of bullying and misogyny, according to an internal report. Jessica Creighton speaks to Pat Cullen, the General Secretary... and Chief Executive of the RCN who commissioned the report. Helen O’Hara is a violinist and composer who plays the ear catching violin on the massive No.1 hit Come on Eileen. She joins Jessica to explain why she chose to become a key member of Dexy’s Midnight Runners rather than join a symphony orchestra, how she picked up her violin again after a long break to raise her sons, and the story behind the title of her memoir – What’s She Like. Today is International Day of the Girl, a global day of action for girls rights. The CEO of the charity Plan International, Rose Caldwell is the CEO of Plan International UK & the Welsh Social Justice Minister Jane Hutt will join Jessica Creighton to discuss how to get more women into leadership and where we are with achieving gender equality. At the end of the Coperni show during Paris Fashion Week, two men spray painted a white dress onto model Bella Hadid. After a few minutes the dress moved with Hadid’s body like a regular, fitted fabric as she walked down the runway. Will we all be spraying on our clothes in the future? We speak to sustainable fashion journalist Megan Doyle to find out more. The war in Ukraine may have reached its culmination with the Russian invasion earlier this year, but for people living on the front lines, the fighting has been constant since 2014. Photojournalist Anastasia Taylor-Lind joins Jessica to discuss her work and new upcoming exhibition at the Imperial War Museum. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:43 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, there are some songs where all you need to hear is the intro and you instantly recognise it. Not only that, but it transports you back to a happy memory, like this, for example. Come on, Eileen! transports you back to a happy memory, like this, for example. You remember that one, right? Come on, Eileen, by Dexys and Midnight Runners. The pop rock group had a number one hit with it back in the 80s.
Starting point is 00:01:24 And the woman who played that iconic violin segment during the song intro, Helen O'Hara, will be with me in the studio. We'll be discussing her time in the band as well as her new memoir, which gives a unique insight into life as a professional violinist. So what are your favourite song intros? The ones where you don't even need to wait for the song to get going before it takes you back to a special place or reminds you of a special time. One of my favourite tracks has got to be Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. And as soon as I hear that intro guitar riff, it just takes me back to a time where my mum would play the album throughout the house, where she'd be washing up or doing chores or ironing or something like that. It's such a happy memory for me.
Starting point is 00:02:01 But tell me about your favourites. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can always email us through our website as well. And on WhatsApp, we are 03700100444. That's 03700100444. Remember that data charges may apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Also on the programme, did you hear about that spray on dress? The video of supermodel Bella Hadid being spray painted on a runway at Paris Fashion Week went viral last week. Does it mean we'll all be doing the same in the future? And how environmentally friendly
Starting point is 00:02:41 is spray on fabric anyway? We'll be speaking to a fashion journalist to find out. Plus, on International Day of the Girl, we'll be discussing why no country in the world has yet achieved gender equality. And with increasing tensions between Ukraine and Russia in the past few days, a new photo exhibition documenting the lives of ordinary Ukrainian people on the front line will open this week in Manchester's Imperial War Museum. The journalist who took the photos will be with us as she hopes to change the media's narrative on conflict in the country. All of that to come, but first this morning.
Starting point is 00:03:17 The Royal College of Nursing, the world's biggest nurses' union, has a culture of bullying and misogyny, according to an internal report. Women are also at risk of alcohol and power-related exploitation at the RCN's annual conference, where Bruce Carr Casey, who led the review, says an inappropriate sexual culture warrants further urgent investigation. 90% of RCN members are female, yet this report found a misogynistic environment
Starting point is 00:03:43 in which loud and abrasive male voices dominate the environment to the detriment of women. The General Secretary and Chief Executive of the RCN is Pat Cullen. She joined me shortly before we came on air and she told me why she commissioned the report. Well, I came into post just shortly, over a year ago, and it was one of the first things that I did after taking up the position of General Secretary and Chief Executive. And that was simply because it was very clear that our members and indeed our staff were saying loud and clear that they were working in a culture
Starting point is 00:04:19 where they were experiencing bullying, harassment, and indeed sexual harassment, and that they felt that this culture was operating with undertones of misogyny and misogynistic behaviour. So that was the reason that I commissioned the report. So what do you think of the findings? First thing I will say is I accept the findings in full. Bruce Carr, Casey, is an eminent Casey. He spoke to our very brave staff and members, many of them and for many hours, as have our council members. And I will leave no stone unturned until the organisation moves to a position where indeed, particularly women, feel safe in this environment, that they have their voice heard and that they have their rightful place within this organisation. There's been quite a few findings by Bruce Carr and they don't make for very good reading at all.
Starting point is 00:05:34 Let's start with senior leadership. And it's quoted in The Guardian as Bruce Carr saying that it's riddled with division, dysfunction and distrust. How has that happened? Well, it clearly has happened over a number of years. And the report makes for very, very tough, hard reading. I have read it over and over again. But what I would say is that I accept those recommendations in full. I accept every word that Bruce Carr has placed within that report. My determination now, as the leader of this organisation, is to drive forward the change
Starting point is 00:06:12 that's required for our 500,000 plus members, those nurses and nursing staff that are working so hard every day and need an organisation like their Royal College to be the college that steps out for them and has their voice, but actually that they feel safe in. And I'm determined to leave no stone unturned to make sure that this organisation changes so that it is responding to both our 90% female profession that are members of our college, but indeed for our staff as well, who need to have their voice heard in the college, but also need to work in an environment where they feel safe.
Starting point is 00:06:53 And it's not just the work environment within the RCN as well. It's the annual conference, which has been raised here as having an inappropriate sexual culture. What goes on at these conferences? You've mentioned already that you're aware of allegations of sexual abuse. What's been happening? Well, I didn't say I was aware of allegations of sexual abuse. That's not what I've said.
Starting point is 00:07:17 I've said that I recognise in Bruce Corr's findings that he says very clearly that this culture was not a culture where women feel safe, that there was certainly women have experienced sexual harassment and indeed inappropriate relationships of a sexual nature. All of those are loud and clear within the report. What I have done is ask Bruce Corr now to move to phase two. And it's within those recommendations where he says that further investigations need to be completed and carried out in relation to a number of allegations that came forward from from very, very brave people. Bruce Corr has already started that work immediately that the report was released and I will await the outcome of those investigations and take absolutely the appropriate decisions after that. In relation to our conference or congress as it's known, it's a really, really important point in our calendar for our organisation because it's
Starting point is 00:08:21 where our members come forward, our nurses and nursing staff come forward to actually set the agenda for this organisation for the next year. We come along and we debate the priorities for nursing and inevitably then the priorities for patients and services. So it's not Congress that's the issue. Actually, that's an incredibly important platform. But what we must do is make sure that every member that comes and takes part in culture in which the Congress wife or husband is a term in common usage and is reflective of a prevalence of extramarital sexual relationship, which encourages others to expect to have the opportunity to engage in similar behavior. I think people will be shocked when they read this. What was your reaction when you heard that? Just as you've said, totally and utterly shocked. Shocked that such an important event in our calendar for our profession is reduced to that.
Starting point is 00:09:44 I am coming on here today to say it is totally and entirely unacceptable, absolutely unacceptable. It's not how I have conducted myself in my 42 years of nursing. It's not how the majority of our profession would ever contemplate conducting themselves and it will change. will absolutely change I am determined to make that change. 90% of RCN members are women but the council has been noted as being misogynistic how has that come about? That is a question I'm sure that Bruce Carr has asked many people when he interviewed them. And it's certainly one that's resonated with me on a daily basis.
Starting point is 00:10:35 But what I am, again, going back to say is that Bruce Carr has made it very clear within that report that it must change. Women need to see themselves at that table. They need to see and hear and feel their voice at that table. And also our women and our females from a black and Asian and minority ethnic background need to feel that they have their voice at that top table as well. And no stone will be left unturned to make sure that that happens as we move forward. And the work has already begun.
Starting point is 00:11:08 Well, that currently isn't the case, of course, because 45% of members of the RCN are Black, Asian or from other ethnic minorities. Yet just one council member is non-white. Will that change? And that's totally unacceptable, isn't it? Absolutely unacceptable. 45% of our members coming from a black or Asian and minority ethnic background. So it is totally unacceptable. I accept Bruce Carr's findings in their entirety. Not one will be prioritised over the other. They all are a priority in my mind. So that will change, absolutely change.
Starting point is 00:11:45 You say you accept the findings in full. You say that you're determined to change things. How are you going to do that? Well, I am surrounded by really good people in this organisation and those very good people have told their story within that report and there's many more. There's also exceptional people on our council that are absolutely got to read that report and to see what has been happening within this organisation. So I'm very confident with the many, many good people both inside the organisation as our staff but also as our members and elected members, that they will work with me and alongside me to make it happen. Yeah, you say you've got good people around you, but in your statement you have said no individual is beyond reproach. Will people be stepping down?
Starting point is 00:12:35 Will people be forced to resign? Well, since I received the report, I've had very deep conversations with our council and I've asked them those very questions and said, as Bruce Carr said, I've repeated Bruce Carr's words, not my words to them, and said, if you see yourself in this report, I am asking you to step down. That report has also been submitted to our Nursing and Midwifery Council, which is our regulatory body for the profession. And I understand that the chief exec and registrar of the NMC has already written to Bruce Carr asking for those names to be issued to our regulatory body. So those conversations remain ongoing
Starting point is 00:13:23 about where people feel themselves within that report and what their future should be within this organisation. If they decide not to step down, will you force them? Bruce Carr has already started those investigations. That's very, very clear. When I receive the outcome of those investigations and should names appear within those investigations, I will take full action on behalf of our profession and behalf of this organisation. As indeed, I am sure, as was said yesterday by our regulatory body, the Nursing and Midwifery Council, they intend to take any action that they feel is necessary as well, because those people, like myself, are on a register. They are here to protect the public.
Starting point is 00:14:08 That's predominantly why the register has been set up by our NMC, and they will take the appropriate action as well. But I will not be found wanting and taking that appropriate action on behalf of our members and on behalf of my staff. There'll be nurses listening to this thinking, well, I'm dealing with low pay. There are staff shortages. There's so many challenges in the profession at the moment. And indeed, that's, you know, one of the reasons why you're balloting at the moment members about a possible strike. What do you say to those nurses? do you reassure them the first thing i do want to say to every nurse and every health care assistant and indeed every member of my staff that's listening to me this this morning as i've said to them already i am really really sorry that this has happened
Starting point is 00:14:58 and that you've had to tell your story and have your experience heard by Bruce Carr. So that's the first thing. But the second thing is that I want to make sure that we continue to represent the 500,000 plus nursing staff within our organisation. And I will continue to do that. I have walked and met many hundreds and hundreds of nursing staff right throughout England. I'm moving next week to meet with nursing staff in Scotland. And I have already met with many, many nursing staff in Northern Ireland. So I'll continue to do that.
Starting point is 00:15:35 And in those conversations, I'll have these conversations about what they require me to do, but what I will be doing on their behalf to make sure that they're not just treated decently within this organisation but they're paid fairly and looked after within their employment as well. That was Pat Cullen, the General Secretary and Chief Executive of the RCN after that leaked internal report. Now yesterday we saw widespread Russian strikes on Ukraine including the capital Kiev. Vladimir Putin said it was retaliation for Saturday's attacks on a key bridge linking Russian annex Crimea to Russia on Saturday. But for those living and fighting on the front line in Ukraine this is only the latest in a series of riots, battles and explosions that have lasted for the last eight years since Russia took over
Starting point is 00:16:26 Crimea in 2014. Now our next guest has been chanting that unrest and war in eastern Ukraine since then. Anastasia Taylor-Lind is a freelance photojournalist who documents the lives of local families and communities. A collection of her photographs will be shown at a new exhibition in Manchester's Imperial War Museum this week. Good morning, Anastasia. Good to see you. Hi, Jess. Thanks so much for having me. Now, before we discuss your powerful photographs, as you would have seen, the conflict in Ukraine continues and has actually escalated in the last few days with those Russian missile strikes. How concerned are you?
Starting point is 00:17:06 What a question. I really don't have any words to describe what's happening in Ukraine. I guess it's part of the reason I'm a photojournalist. These attacks have been going on since the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine in February. And yesterday was another reminder that nowhere in Ukraine is safe. We have an idea that, well, wars happen in war zones, designated spaces, typically along front lines or in trenches. And the media coverage is often around the experience of combatants, but actually the front line is everywhere in Ukraine. It's everywhere. Now, the conflict actually started long before Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year. As I mentioned, it started back in 2014. And you
Starting point is 00:18:06 were working in Ukraine at the time. What did you experience back in 2014? Well, I started working in Ukraine during the Euromaidan revolution that took place in the center of Kiev, where we saw the attacks happening yesterday. And after the Euromaidan revolution deposed the then President Yanukovych, who fled to Russia, Russia invaded, occupied, illegally annexed Crimea and then supported a very violent separatist movement in the east of the country that saw the formation of two unrecognized proxy states. And the conflict in the eastern region of Donbass has been going on, as you say, for those last eight years. And now we're seeing the same towns fought over again, as we did in 2014-15, when the first escalations began.
Starting point is 00:19:05 And you were right there at the heart of it. So what did you go through? Well, my job is to observe in its most rudimentary sense, violence metered out against human beings, I suppose. And I don't really know how to answer that question. It's about perspective, I guess, as well, in a way. Sometimes the things I photograph are hard to see. And at the same time, I have so many privileges in that I'm photographing violent events taking place in another country against other communities and against other people. So when I'm photographing, I know that my own family is safe here in London. I know that my apartment in Stoke Newington probably isn't going to be bombed. And it's those privileges that really that I think about when I'm working as well and these are these are privileges that my Ukrainian colleagues are not afforded nor nor is anyone living in
Starting point is 00:20:13 Ukraine so I believe that photojournalism is important in two senses one that we're recording the news and another that we're creating historical documents so that people will know what happened not only today, but also in decades or centuries to come. And it's that purpose that I suppose holds me while I'm working in sometimes difficult situations. I hope that answers your question. Very difficult situations. And you would, of course, experienced a lot of trauma from being in Ukraine and reporting from war zones over the last 18 years. That detachment that you describe, is that what allows you to keep working and going back to these horrendous conditions? I'm not totally sure if it is detachment. I think the thing that really helps me is actually being quite connected to myself,
Starting point is 00:21:13 at least physically, as well as psychologically. And I think the thing that allows me to keep doing the work that I believe in is making some small adjustments as my career has gone on to my everyday, ordinary life. For example, I meditate. I go to yoga. I have a dog. That helps a lot. I spend a lot of time with animals. I ride. I'm sober now. And all of those things, of course, help me to navigate ordinary life as they do for all of us. But in particular, give me the strength to keep reporting in places like Ukraine over such a long period of time. And as you said, when you go to Ukraine, it's not just the soldiers that you're interested in, it's the ordinary people. So just tell me about the people that you've come across that have been involved in the conflict, but aren't necessarily soldiers. Yeah, I think the main focus of my work, as you say, is not in the presence of soldiers along front lines, but really it's about
Starting point is 00:22:27 what it's like to live with them. For example, I've been photographing the Grinick family for the last five years, whose two kids, Miroslav and Kirill, were both born since the war started, so neither of them have known peace. And until the full-scale Russian invasion earlier this year, the Groneks lived within 50 metres of a frontline military position and had to adapt their daily lives in very simple ways. They used to forage for mushrooms in the autumn in a forest next to their home, but when that became contaminated with landmines and unexploded ordnance, they moved to another location to have sort of recreational time together with the family in the summer.
Starting point is 00:23:12 And now Avdiivka, the city where they had been living, is under very heavy bombardment. So Olga, the mum, and the two kids fled Avdiivka and they're living as refugees in Poltava region with family members, while Nikolai, the father, volunteered to join the army. And now the family is separated along gender lines, which is very common in all wars and especially in Ukraine today. How are women coping in Ukraine? We often find when war breaks out, women are left very vulnerable. Did you see that during your time in Ukraine? Actually, the most vulnerable members of any population when war breaks out are men of fighting
Starting point is 00:24:02 age. They're the most likely to lose their lives or be injured. But certainly, war requires, in order for it to happen, requires that men and women are separated. And so men and women take on different roles depending on their gender. There are more than 12 million people who've been displaced in Ukraine, about half of them outside of the country. And of those 6.6 million people who have fled, most of them, the vast majority of them are women and children, because martial law dictates that men of fighting age between 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country. And so, as in the case of the Greenwicks, we're seeing families separated. Even men who don't go to fight or volunteer
Starting point is 00:24:54 will typically stay behind to take care of home, livestock, elderly relatives who are left behind, where women take on the main caregiving role of carrying their children to safety. Yeah. And as I mentioned, your photos will be exhibited in a new exhibition at Manchester's Imperial War Museum. But you've tried to pitch these photos before to news editors. What was the response? Yeah, I've been working in eastern Ukraine together with a Ukrainian writer, Alyssa Sopova, for the last eight years. And we've been
Starting point is 00:25:32 reporting on the lives of ordinary civilians living along the front line for all of that time. In fact, I met with the Imperial War Museum before the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine this year to share my work with the curator, Greg Brockett. And typically until now, the response from editors has been to ask me, but what's the news hook? But what changed? And of course, that is the story that nothing had changed until now. It became known as the Forgotten War and was described as a frozen conflict limited to the east of the country. And of course, I wish it hadn't changed. I'm a journalist, so what I wish doesn't really count. And in the future, I imagine you're aiming to go back to Ukraine at some point, despite things having escalated.
Starting point is 00:26:32 Yes, of course. Since February, I've been working almost consistently in Ukraine. And at the moment, I'm on average spending a month here and then going to report for a month. I was in Kharkiv last month for the Wall Street Journal. And I expect to be back there at the end of this month. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Best of luck to you, Anastasia. Thank you so much. Incredible work that you've done. I've seen your photographs. They're very, very powerful indeed. Thank you for coming on to the programme. Thank you. Now, there are certain song intros that are instantly recognisable and get everyone on the dance floor.
Starting point is 00:27:14 Helen O'Hara plays that distinctive violin segment that you probably heard me play earlier in the show from Come On Eileen. Helen started playing violin at nine years old and joined various pop bands before being classically trained. But then she went on to become a key member of that pop rock group, Dexys Midnight Runners. She now has a memoir out and it's called What She's Like, which gives us a rare insight into the life of a professional violinist. It actually coincides with the 40th anniversary reissue of Dexie's classic album, To Rye, mixed as it should have sounded at the time. Helen is with me in the studio live. Great to see you, Helen. Good morning. Hello. Good morning. Glad to be here.
Starting point is 00:27:56 Now we have to start with that song. Come on, Eileen. It's such an iconic track and you performed it live, didn't you, at the closing ceremony for the Commonwealth Games it also recently featured on Desert Island Discs just this past weekend oh who was that with Kevin Sinfield a rugby player oh wow yes it's a song that so many people connect with what does it mean to you it's I think what it means to me is I just feel really privileged to have played on such an iconic, I suppose, such an amazing piece of music. And it means everything, really, because I'd always wanted to play with a band when I was very young. It was something that I'd always dreamed of doing when I was a teenager. And to get a violin into a band is quite a difficult thing, really.
Starting point is 00:28:49 I wasn't a folk musician. I was classically trained, and I probably would have been happy going along the classical path. But I sort of felt that what I really wanted to do in my heart was to be playing in a band. But as a violinist and as a woman, you know, the two things were quite tricky.
Starting point is 00:29:10 And so initially I left home and played with some bands in Bristol. And that's really where I learned my trade, I think, as a violinist. And then when those bands couldn't really get any further with what they wanted to do, couldn't get signed, my sister Liz said, how about going to music college? And I thought, well, you know what, that's a really good idea. It's a really positive thing to do. So at the age of 21, I went to music college,
Starting point is 00:29:40 still with an open mind about what I wanted to do. But because I was studying classical music so much, I sort of felt, no, actually, I really need to focus on this, not listen to pop music and get distracted. And it was in my last year that I was sort of headhunted by Dexis, who had heard me play with another band who I played with. And when I walked into Dexis' rehearsal room, to cut a long story short, I was just so blown away with the music I heard. And Kam and Arlene was part of that.
Starting point is 00:30:13 And then I recorded Kam and Arlene with them and then it became number one. And so the rest is history. Yeah, exactly. So when we played at the Commonwealth Games, I felt like I was 25 again. I really did. You know, it was, you know, the warmth from the audience, being back in Birmingham. I haven't been back in Birmingham for years. And yeah, the whole thing. And I think, you know, I still, I had to re-record that track actually for the Commonwealth Games because the original song was in too high a key for Kevin to sing. So he was going to sing live. The rest of us were miming. So we recorded the backing track. And when I went into the studio to record the three violins, I was on such a high.
Starting point is 00:30:55 And I thought, I got home and I texted Kevin and Pete Schreier, the engineer, and I said, you know, I've just really given it everything. I've played with loads of energy and I was bouncing around and I think that is what the song means to me is it it was the start of the career that I'd always wanted and and it is such a great song isn't it oh it is and if you analyze it yeah if you actually you know as a sort of musician really analyze the parts it's a very cleverly written song yeah um so and everyone loves it and i you know i've met people that weren't even born when the song was released but yet they know it uh word for word and it's of course the song that you're famous for but you have many other songs in fact
Starting point is 00:31:36 let's just hear a montage of your songs now okay Wow, that brought you back, Helen. Now, that final song was called All in All, I believe. That's right. And the way it moves almost seamlessly from Kevin Rowland's vocals into your violin, was that your idea? How did that come about? No, that was Kevin's idea. I can really remember the day, actually, in the rehearsal room when I'd been improvising solos, and then Kevin said to me,
Starting point is 00:32:13 you know what, why don't you try a long note coming in as I'm fading out my note, you know, his vocal note, and start on the same note. And I just thought, you know, that's just note and I just thought you know that's just genius because it's like it's just like I always think the violin is a bit like a voice anyway to me it's it's almost like the closest instrument there is to a voice and and it's almost like me him and me sort of met and then just sort of you know dovetail and yeah but that that is Kevin you know he he often he'll suggest ideas
Starting point is 00:32:45 and at the time you think, oh, yeah, that sounds good. But then you realise it's a huge thing. You know, it seems like a small point, but it's actually genius. You've told us about how much you enjoyed playing with the band. And of course you were classically trained as well. So you had that kind of conflict
Starting point is 00:33:04 between classical music and pop music, went down the pop route, but then at some point you stopped touring, you stopped performing because you went to raise your sons and start a family. Is that a decision that was hard to come by? Was it a tough decision to make? And did you completely stop playing the violin at that point? When my first son was born in 1991, I kept an open mind and I thought, you know, I didn't really... I'd given up touring just before, you know, to have Jack and everything.
Starting point is 00:33:37 And then I thought I'd keep an open mind and I got a little bit of work in. And then I got pregnant quite quickly with my second son and then before I knew it I had two sort of babies under two really and I was quite tired and but then I thought you know I'm just really love being with my boys and um I'm actually just going to be with them and I'm I it's just what I wanted to do and and I'd had such a busy and full life. I'd been playing since I was nine and busy with music. And I thought, I'm just going to have some time off. But the time off crept on. It did.
Starting point is 00:34:12 And it was over 20 years. But then you found a way back. How difficult was it to come back after being out of the loop, I suppose, for so long? I think what had happened is I started to really miss playing when my sons formed a band, you know, as they do as teenagers. And I became the roadie, you know. And then they both went to the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. And I've started to really miss playing. And when I was going to their concerts and shows and watching them doing what I used to do. And I just knew that I was missing being a musician
Starting point is 00:34:47 and decided, right, just roll up your sleeves, you'd get the fiddle out and try and get back to it. But I didn't really know what lay ahead, you know, but I was prepared for sort of the hard journey to come back and did lots of, you know, I had to work really hard, obviously, to get my come back and and um did lots of you know i had to work really hard obviously to get my skills back and my confidence and that included you know busking regularly in greenwich by myself for a bad year yeah on saturday and sundays i used to stand by myself playing english folk music um and that was um something that really, really helped me just putting myself there.
Starting point is 00:35:27 Quite vulnerable. And you've come back now with this. You've written the book, of course, The Memoir, What She's Like. But you've also re-released this iconic album, To Rye. It's been remixed for its 40th anniversary, as it should have sounded. That's right. Which is interesting. How should it have sounded?
Starting point is 00:35:51 Well, as it does now but this is a new mix but um yeah what it was was when it was originally mixed kevin wasn't very happy with with the mix and um it went out as it did and it'd been bugging him for for years and years and so when the 40th anniversary um of the album was was coming up kevin suggested to the record company that perhaps he could remix it to how he wanted it to sound originally, which was trying to get the subtleties and the nuances that he felt were missing back into it and the soul of the song shining through a bit more. And a few little things had changed in that, for instance,
Starting point is 00:36:18 one of the songs in 1982 had a penny whistle starting it, but the trombone was now put back in, which was just swapped around at the time, but should have been kept, you know, those sort of things. Those are quite subtle things. And a couple of the songs, like Kevin O'Leary and Kevin Thorpe, were fine. Yeah. But, you know, it's back how he wants it now, so he's happy.
Starting point is 00:36:38 I have a feeling there's going to be so many people just waiting, cannot wait to hear this this new album we've had quite a few messages come in really yes so someone has whatsapped us to say come on Eileen was playing when I first met my husband on a ferry from Hull to Rotterdam we're still together 40 years later I love it I love that come on eileen bringing love into the world someone else has said come on eileen was the first song at my wedding reception everyone joined in the foot stomping it was fabulous thank you to that one from helen from kent see that's that's great you know well you know so many people connect with that song in particular they do they do and and um i'm just
Starting point is 00:37:21 you know i if i hear it on the radio you know know, I'm as excited as when I was 25. You know, it's great. It really is. I can see your eyes lighting up as you talk about it. Helen, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you in the Women's Hour studio. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.
Starting point is 00:37:39 Now, today is International Day of the Girl, which is a global day of action for girls' rights. It was first introduced a decade ago at the United Nations. To mark the 10th anniversary, global children's charity Plan International have published a new report which assesses the state of girls' rights across the world. Whilst progress has been made, the report shows there is still no country in the world that has achieved gender equality. One of the themes this year is getting more women into leadership positions. And my next guests are certainly women in positions of power, CEO of Plan International, Rose Caldwell, and Jane Hutt,
Starting point is 00:38:16 Minister for Social Justice in Wales. A very good morning to you both. I'll start with you, Rose. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. So what is the aim of this International Day of the Girl? Well, today we're celebrating the 10th International Day of the Girl. And today is a day powered by girls because Plan International UK is leading girls takeovers right across businesses, media, entertainment, where we're having girls and young women take over senior positions in organisations like AstraZeneca. Some girls took over the chief statistician's role. And these young girls are raising their voices and they are delivering powerful messages
Starting point is 00:38:59 saying we want equal power, freedom and representation. So the report showed that no country in the world has achieved gender equality. But what else does this report show? Well, it shows a very mixed bag of things. If we look at different aspects of gender equality, I think over the last 10 years we have seen some positive progress. And, for example, in women's leadership here in the UK, we have a female prime minister, we have a female vice president in the US.
Starting point is 00:39:33 But at the same time, the World Economic Forum has produced statistics which shows that it will take 132 years for a woman to achieve parity in politics. That's quite astonishing, 132 years. It's a long time. It's a long time. So there is a lot still to do. Jane, good morning. How are you marking this day in Wales?
Starting point is 00:39:57 Well, it's great today because we've got Jamie actually stepping into the shoes of our First Minister, Mark Drakeford. She actually opened our weekly government press conference today and she's coming along with me to address a Hate Crime Awareness Week, which is looking particularly at hate crime from a child and young person's perspective. But what's so great about Jamie? I mean, she's 16.
Starting point is 00:40:22 She's actually leading a campaign with a group of girls called Her Voice Wales, and she's actually already identifying how we can build skills and confidence and empower girls, particularly facing issues, concerns about street safety, public sexual harassment, look at the hashtag, we don't feel safe uh working for changes in our community i mean this is great and i think actually what's happening is what jamie is today she's saying leading from the top first minister mark drakeford stepping out saying jamie it's it's you we want to hear from you today but this is so important as i said across the world there are girls doing this we have a long way to go in terms of leadership and making
Starting point is 00:41:06 sure that girls are empowered today. It's not just a one day, it's got to be every day. Minister for Social Justice, what an opportunity to give that message out today. It is. And what challenges do you feel that you face, particularly being a woman in politics? Well, it's one of those things where I never thought I'd set out to be a minister in the Welsh government, a huge opportunity, privilege for me. But I suppose I went from being a campaigner, activist, helping set up the first women's aid refuge in Wales
Starting point is 00:41:38 many, many moons ago. And being sort of a campaigner activist, actually building confidence myself but then people saying to me well you actually ought to get in there get into the system try and change from within and that's where I go by him a councillor and I was always passionate about devolution and putting power closest to people and that's where I ended up standing for election not easy I said I serve a marginal seat um but actually I've managed to really get six six elections on I I'm the senate member in Welsh parliament but actually I mean what it is for me in terms of leadership it's about
Starting point is 00:42:20 how can we make sure all policies across the Welsh government actually do the things that the International Day of the Girl Child actually says. It is about living free from gender based violence. That's where, you know, tackling violence against women and girls is critically important. Why should it be that we still have 125 women killed by men, you know, just over the last year. We have got to work on all levels in terms of health, education, gender budgeting, pay gaps. We've got national milestones for that. We've got more women in cabinet than we have men, actually. And I've been always, we've had a woman as a finance minister in Wales.
Starting point is 00:43:04 But let's just motivate young girls and women today through this fantastic. And look, look at the world leaders as well. I think Kamala Harris, Archila, Jacinda Ardern. And what about, you know, President Samia in Tanzania, looking to girls and women part of their agenda. Rose, do you feel that there has been progress in areas that Jane was mentioning there in education, when we talk about gender-based violence as well, in the past decade since this day has been active? So what I think we have achieved is it's being discussed. It's now a national discussion, which in itself is a huge achievement. But there
Starting point is 00:43:45 is still so much more to do right across the world. And, you know, again, if we look at the issue of sexual and reproductive health rights, which is really, really important for girls. It's very topical at the moment as well, isn't it, with Roe versus Wade? You know, exactly. And, you know, there are a huge number of unintended pregnancies around the world. Most of those pregnancies happen within marriages and unions. But, you know, half of them are with children, you know, girls under the age of 18. We know that once a girl gets pregnant, she drops out of education. That makes her less economically independent. And lots of things happen as a result of that, which is not good for girls.
Starting point is 00:44:31 And so we really, we have seen progress. We've seen a drop of 15% in child marriage. But we have also seen, as you say, real rollbacks in SRHR rights, sexual reproductive health rights, both in the US, in Poland and Nicaragua. Even here in the UK, there's a recent statement from the UK government who've always been really outspoken and strong in relation to safe abortion and sexual rights, removing that from their statement on gender equality. However, we are hopeful and we are hopeful that the current government will address these. And just speaking, you know, following on from what Jane was saying, here in the UK, Plan International is also running a Crime Not Compliment campaign, asking the UK government to make public sexual harassment, which is a huge problem here in the UK, a crime.
Starting point is 00:45:30 And the reason we're asking for it to be a crime is when things are made a crime in the UK, it sends a message to the UK public that it's not OK. It's not OK to publicly sexual harass girls as they walk down the street, as they go about their day-to-day business. People think it's, you know, in society some people, oh, we're just catcalling,
Starting point is 00:45:50 it's not important, it doesn't. It is important and it affects girls and young ladies and what they can do. So we are calling on the government and Liz Truss did say in her campaigning moments that she would be making public sexual harassment
Starting point is 00:46:07 illegal here in the UK. So I hope she does that. Yeah, and so you'll be trying to get in contact with Lift Trust. Have you spoken to her already? We, of course, are talking to her and talking to the Home Office. And are you confident changes will be made?
Starting point is 00:46:23 We're hopeful. We're hopeful. And we will continue. We have a lot of young people. We work very closely with a fantastic girls-led young organisation called Our Streets Now. And between us, we're really campaigning to get this made into a law. And just finally, Jane, what would you like to see change? This International Day of the Girl has been running for 10 years. In 10 years time, when you're celebrating your 20th anniversary, what would you like to have happened? Well, I want those girls to be empowered, to be the leaders, to be compassionate, caring leaders who see that gender equality actually makes good for good healthy uh communities you know if we get equality for women and girls then that will be good for the world and we need to have those lit that leadership uh which addresses
Starting point is 00:47:12 those issues and i you know for me um this is about education this is about empowering girls and women today we will learn a great deal and we will take this back and also make our representations to the UK government on those issues that young girls in Wales today and across the UK have raised. Thank you, Jane Hutt, Minister for Social Justice in Wales, and also thank you to Rose Cordwell, CEO of Plan International. Now, many of you getting in touch about the song intros that I mentioned at the beginning of the show, that song intro that transports you back to another place. Lots of you telling me and handing me suggestions. One of those is Blondie hanging on the telephone or Sunday Girl. Someone else has said it has to be Madonna's Vogue. It reminds me of the hundred times I've danced to it with my sisters at weddings, birthdays, kitchen discos.
Starting point is 00:48:07 We've also got another one here. Amazing intro. She sells sanctuary by the cult. 1980s goth heaven. So many of you getting in touch. Please do continue and I'll hopefully read some more out before the end of the show. Now, you've probably heard of fast fashion, but how about this? During Paris Fashion Week last week, supermodel Bella Hadid had a dress spray painted onto her body. It was incredible. She walked onto the catwalk. She had nothing but the smallest of smallest G-strings on. She was awkwardly kind of holding her breasts. And then these two men came out with spray cans and basically spray painted her body. And then a few minutes later, the spray turned into some kind of fitted fabric.
Starting point is 00:48:57 And off she walked down the runway. If you haven't seen it, do, because it's absolutely extraordinary. I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. So what exactly is this spray paint fabric? Is it eco-friendly? And will we all be doing the same thing in the future? I'm hoping that sustainable fashion journalist Megan Doyle can answer those questions for us. Good morning to you, Megan.
Starting point is 00:49:20 Good morning. Thanks for having me. So for people that haven't seen this video, that haven't seen this viral moment from Paris Fashion Week, how do you put it into words? I tried my best to describe it there. You did a great job. I think, well, it was done at Caperni, which is a French fashion brand show. In the last 15 minutes of the show, Bella came out and was sprayed with a basically like a liquid polymer solution that contains different fibres into it. The brand is actually called Fabrican that created this material and it kind of does what it says in the name. It's a liquid spray that essentially bonds itself into a non-woven fabric when it's sprayed onto the body.
Starting point is 00:50:03 We're not exactly sure what the, uh, the, the contents of that was. It says on the website that it could have been, you can really use any sort of natural or synthetic fiber, and then you blend that with a liquid polymer. Um, but yeah, essentially they sprayed it onto Bella. It took 15 minutes. She looked absolutely freezing. Um, and in end, she walked off in a beautiful custom creation. It was a really interesting moment. I think it really went viral, which was the intention of the brand. And it's really interesting that it's raised more questions about the different materials that we can use in the fashion industry and how, you know, how innovation and how technology
Starting point is 00:50:44 can help us get there. Well, yeah. How practical is this really? I mean, is it something that we could be doing at home in a few years time? I don't think so. I don't know about you. I personally don't want to wear a skin tight spray on dress. That's not really my style. But I think, you know, this company has been around since 2003, so it's not a new technology. It does make me wonder, you know, if it's been around for nearly 20 years, why have we not really heard of it or seen of it in other applications in the fashion industry until last week? But there are definitely some interesting possibilities for this sort of fabric. For example, I know that the company is trying to look into creating bandages and creating casts.
Starting point is 00:51:31 So going into more of a medical sort of side of the industry. And I think it could also be really interesting to see if you had a white T-shirt that had a big rip in it or a big stain or a hole or something if you could use fabrican to spray that whole clothes and to mend your clothing at home by yourself in a way that doesn't involve you know the tricky needle and thread and and those sort of darning skills that not everyone has um it does present some pretty interesting possibilities but i don't think it's going to be something that we're all you know getting ready for work spraying on our t-shirts for the day and then off we go that's a shame away from that yeah I had visions of us all doing that in a few years time um and of course the Megan there is this consumer movement at the moment of buying fashion that's seen as almost guilt-free um and better for the environment you know I'm seeing things
Starting point is 00:52:19 like vegan leather where I've seen shoes made out of pineapples and belts made from mushrooms that's becoming more and more prominent. Are they actually better options? It's a really complicated thing to answer because there is no good or bad material. All materials can be made in a really eco-friendly way and they can be made in a really unsustainable, environmentally damaging way. That goes for cotton, it goes for leather, it goes for vegan leathers, all sorts of different materials. It's really hard to kind of give a blanket statement on that. I think there are a lot of materials coming out at the moment
Starting point is 00:52:55 that are presenting some interesting options, but it's really important, especially for people going into a shop and trying to find, okay, you know, like, is vegan leather better than bovine leather? It's really hard to say. It's not necessarily all of the vegan leathers on the market at the moment contain elements of plastic because, you know, whether they're made from mushrooms or grape waste or pineapple or cactus, There are lots of different things that you can make a vegan leather out of. But in order for that not to biodegrade on your body
Starting point is 00:53:30 and just completely rot away, it has to be mixed with plastic. It has to be mixed with a fossil fuel-based polymer. And that's what binds it and gives it the texture and gives it the strength that it actually needs to stay as a piece of clothing and not just turn to mush. So yeah, I think it's really tricky. These vegan alternatives are often presented as,
Starting point is 00:53:52 you know, much better, much more sustainable because they don't harm animals. And if you're looking at it purely from an animal perspective and animal rights perspective, then they are definitely better. But to say that they are better than leather in all ways is kind of oversimplifying it and probably misrepresenting and giving these materials more credit than they're due, I think. So as a sustainable fashion journalist, what would you like to see more of in that sustainability space when it comes to fashion? I think the important thing is, and especially, you know, looking at this fabric and technology and the different ways that science is mixing
Starting point is 00:54:32 into the fashion industry, I think what I would really like to see is the science being applied to fix the problems that we currently have in the fashion industry, rather than being used to just create new fun fabrics that aren't really going to move the needle at all. There's so many issues in fashion. You know, we've got a huge microfiber and microplastic pollution problem that comes from the fact that I think about 60% of our fabrics that we buy are made from polyester, which is essentially fossil fuel plastic. And that creates huge problems for the environment. So I'd like to see science being harnessed in a way that actually solves those sort of problems rather than, you know,
Starting point is 00:55:12 creating kind of gimmicky, fun, fashion week viral moments like we saw last week. But I think that there are a lot of cool materials coming out. They just need investment. They need a lot more money being poured into them so that these brands can actually, you know, change the industry and become commercially available. Yeah, something we will wait to see as to whether that will actually happen or not. Megan, thank you for your insights this morning. As I mentioned, lots of listeners getting in touch about their
Starting point is 00:55:42 favourite song intro. Someone here has said, this old heart of mine would always bring back happy memories of my late husband, Phil. It was played at the local dance hall in 1968. Someone else has mentioned Layla by Eric Clapton. I love that guitar riff at the start of Layla. There's also a really good acoustic version of that. Someone has mentioned also Hey Jude. It brings them back to the first weeks of their nursing training back in Edinburgh in September 1968. So many of you getting in touch. Thank you very much for being part of the show.
Starting point is 00:56:16 Someone else has also said the music introduction for me is the first few bars of Ziggy Sardust. It brings back so many great memories of the key soundtrack to my life, including seeing David Bowie perform it live. How about we end the show with some David Bowie? And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join's nothing new about a Labour leader. Who the hell are you? Mistrust. She-Hulk.
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Starting point is 00:57:26 Coming up. Washing up liquid. Three to five thousand pounds. A packet of custard creams. Where did you get them? They were in a box in my mother-in-law's cupboard. Sort of three to four hundred pounds, something like that. Bites on house.
Starting point is 00:57:38 Crack team. Sound wizards. You're a wizard. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.
Starting point is 00:57:57 Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.
Starting point is 00:58:14 Available now.

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