Woman's Hour - Helena Bonham Carter, Power List judges Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson and Ebony Rainford-Brent, Update on Ian Paterson

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Helena Bonham Carter is one of our best known actors – she’s played everyone from Princess Margaret in The Crown and Elizabeth the Queen Mother in The King's Speech, to Bellatrix Lestrange in the Harry Potter films, and more recently Enola Holmes’ formidable mother in the Netflix films with Milly Bobby Brown. Helena is now taking on a very different role, that of the Queen of the Midlands Noele Gordon, or Nolly as she was known to her friends; the actress who starred in the hugely popular TV soap Crossroads for 18 years until she was sacked very suddenly in 1981. Russell T Davies has written the three part drama which is released on ITV X on Thursday 2 February. Helena joins Nuala in the studio.Researchers in Canada estimate that approximately one in eight women are likely to be suffering from an unrecognised brain injury related to domestic violence. Millions of dollars are spent each year in Canada studying the impacts of traumatic brain injuries on professional male athlete’s brains, such as hockey players, whilst very little is known about the injuries suffered by female victims of intimate partner violence. Nuala speaks to Karen Mason, co-founder of the Supporting Survivors of Abuse and Brain Injury Through Research project, and a former executive director of the Kelona Women’s Shelter in Canada, and Dr Paul van Donkelaar, a clinical neuroscientist at the University of British Columbia who specialises in concussion research.There's just one more week to get your submissions in for the Woman's Hour Power List, this year focussing on women in sport. It's not just football where the women's game has seen big success - Great Britain’s women’s curling team won a gold medal in Beijing, the 2022 Tour de France Femmes broke records, England and Wales have been confirmed as hosts of Women’s T20 World Cup in 2026 and the list goes on. Nuala is joined by two of our Power List judges Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, one of Britain’s most celebrated British Paralympians of all time, winning 16 medals across five Games, now a cross bench peer in the House of Lords, and Ebony Rainford-Brent, the World Cup winning cricketer and broadcaster.1500 people who received treatment from jailed breast surgeon Ian Paterson are being recalled by Spire Healthcare, a private hospital company, after their details were recovered from an old computer database. Described as 'one of the biggest medical scandals ever to have hit this country' the man at the centre of it became known as 'the butchering breast surgeon'. Joining Nuala is Jane Kirby, PA Media Health Editor.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. So glad that you're here. How is your morning going? Well, we know that women make up 75% of the teaching workforce. So we're asking, are you affected by the teacher strikes today? I want to know how you feel about them. I want to know how you're coping with their impact. And we want to hear from teachers who are striking and teachers who are not. And parents, how's it going? All views and experience, welcome to get in touch with us.

Text us. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And you can also send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. Now, last night I watched an episode of the ITV drama Nolly, the glorious Helena Bonham Carter playing Noel Gordon, who played Meg Richardson in the soap Crossroads. Now, if you don't remember Crossroads, or maybe you never watched it, no matter,

the story of Noel, nicknamed Nolly, is a fascinating one. She was called Queen of the Midlands, and she said that she actually invented daytime TV. But she was sacked unceremoniously after 18 years on the show. We're going to explore why, and also why so much of Nolly's story resonates today. So that's coming up. Helena Baum, Noam Carter in studio. And also, the Woman's Hour Power List is back. Have you nominated a woman

making a significant contribution to sport yet? If not, we will tell you how. But we're also going to speak to a couple of trailblazers who are part of our judging panel. Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson and also Ebony Rainford-Brent. They're an impressive duo. They're going to take us through, you know, how they see the progress of women's sport recently and also

what stands in the way of further success. And there is another story I also want to bring to you. We've often spoken about concussion and sports people and some of the consequences of that are now being fully investigated. But have you ever thought about brain injuries from repetitive concussions from intimate partner violence? Well, I have two guests that are researching exactly that.

So we're going to hear this hour what they have found. But first, I want to turn to a story we're seeing this morning. One and a half thousand people who received treatment from the jailed breast surgeon, Ian Patterson, are being recalled by Spire Healthcare. That's a private hospital company after the details were recovered from an old computer database. It's described as one of the biggest medical scandals ever to have hit this country.

And the man at the centre of it became known as the butchering breast surgeon. Well, joining me now is Jane Kirby. She's PA Media Health Editor. Great to have you with us, Jane. Thanks for joining us this morning. Could you remind us who Ian Paterson is and exactly what did he do? Good morning. So Ian Paterson was a consultant breast surgeon in the West Midlands, and he worked both in NHS hospitals and private hospitals run by Aspire.

He worked at Aspire Hospital Parkway and also Aspire Hospital Little Aston. And he was accused of operating on thousands of people, mostly women. And an inquiry in 2020 found that well over a thousand people had operations that were needless and damaging. And we know that in some cases he invented or exaggerated the risk of breast cancer to encourage them to have surgery. Shocking. All of that. In 2017, he was jailed for 20 years. But what exactly was he found guilty of? So yes, so Patterson was found guilty of 17 counts of wounding intent. And this was for crimes between 1997 and 2011. And I suppose many people will be wondering exactly how did he get away with it? The scale seems so vast. It certainly does. And there was an inquiry in 2020, which basically found failings at all levels of oversight of Ian Paterson. So there was criticism of the NHS Trust involved,

and the fact that they had been made aware by colleagues of Ian Patterson about problems with his work and concerns about the surgery that he was carrying out and so yes I mean it was on a vast scale and it does seem that that it went under the radar for several years. So here we are now in 2023 we're hearing about 1500 patients potentially who have been discovered by Spire what do we know? So Spire put out a statement this morning and they have said that they recalled five and a half thousand patients at the end of 2020. But they have said that they've revisited their historic legacy IT systems that were in use between 1993 and the early 2000s.

And they say these systems contain information about patients from over 20 years ago, who would have been treated by Ian Patterson. And what they're doing is recalling those patients so that their treatment can be reviewed. Gosh, that's really quite something when we think of these systems that were there that have now just really been exposed to what other people might have been affected by this. Any idea why it took so long for them to check out these IT systems? So what Spire are saying is that they've been committed to identifying and tracking down all the living patients of Ian Patterson, regardless of when they were treated. And they did think that these systems were previously inaccessible. But they've looked to this issue again, and they've gone back over these legacy computer systems. And they've looked at this issue again and they've gone back over these legacy computer systems and they've said that that's led them to be able to identify these extra one and a half thousand patients. And I suppose the question will be if, in fact, they have details to be able to personally contact them.

Yes, exactly. So they're saying now that they will be contacting all of those patients individually. And in some of those cases, they will be inviting them of those patients individually and in some of those cases they will be inviting them in for a review of their treatment. And the being missed I suppose in the previous recalls it's just they were not accessing systems that had those names on it? Yeah they're saying that it took a while to to carry out this review it's been quite painstaking work to go back over these legacy systems. However, some of the solicitors involved in representing Ian Patterson's victims have raised questions about why it has taken so long to find these extra patients, given that Ian Patterson was convicted in 2017.

And so for those patients, what does it mean for them if a name comes up, you know, if they're matched? Well obviously it must be pretty terrifying for those patients and obviously many will have concerns and will be worried about what this means. So I mean Spire does have a helpline that people can call if they are concerned that they have been a patient of Ian Patterson and they haven't been recalled previously. And Spire are also directing patients to their website where they've got further information on this. So thank you so much.

That is Jane Kirby, PA, Media Health Editor. And for any patient who is concerned about treatment they received with Ian Patterson can call Spire Healthcare's free phone helpline. I'll give that number right now. It is 0800 085 8130. It's 0800 085 8130. You can also find details on our website. And I do want to just read a little from Spire who say,

while we're unfortunately not able to provide a spokesperson, they say for BBC Woman's Hour, we remain very sorry for the significant distress and harm suffered by patients who were treated by Ian Paterson and go on to say that they are committed to identifying, tracking down and contacting all living patients of Ian Paterson, regardless of when they were treated. So we'll keep across that story and be able to follow up on it

as more details become available. But now, there's just one more week to get your submissions in for the Women's Hour Power List. This year, focusing on women in sport. It's not just football where the women's game has seen big success.

Great Britain's women's curling team won a gold medal in Beijing. The 2022 Tour de France fan broke records. England and Wales have been confirmed as hosts of Women's T20 World Cup in 2026. So that list does go on and on. In the headlines at the moment is the future of the Manchester United forward Alessio Russo, who scored the iconic backheel goal in Euros last summer. Arsenal have put in two record-breaking bids.

Don't know for how much exactly, but Man U are standing firm and say she is not for sale. So it's an exciting time for women's sports and to discuss it, I'm joined by two of our power list judges. They will be sifting through your submissions and deciding which 30

women make up the Women's Hour Power List. We have with us Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, one of Britain's most celebrated British Paralympians of all time, winning 16 medals across five games, now a crossbench peer in the House of Lords, and Ebony Rainford-Brent, the World Cup winning cricketer and broadcaster. Ebony hosts the Women's sports show on BBC Radio London. Ebony was the first female pundit, one of the first female pundits on the BBC's Test Match special. Great to have both of you with us.

You're both so welcome to Women's Hour. Hello, good morning. Good morning. Well, Ebony, let me turn to you. You've been following women's sports for years and years. Is this moment as exciting as many are saying it is? Yeah, it's absolutely game changer. I've obviously been involved in women's sports since I was 10.

So I'm giving away my age. I'm pushing 40 now. So, you know, seeing the sport, just women's sport in general and the opportunities that existed previously, you know, for girls in various different sports were pretty low in terms of income through playing. It's gone through the roof in terms of broadcast and commercial deals. They're going through the roof. Just a few weeks ago, it was announced Beth England had a transfer fee of £250,000.

And you just go back a few years ago and those sort of numbers would never have been possible. And I think there's been a few things that have really catapulted these moments that we kind of now come to, which is success on the field, despite sometimes a lot of sports not having the infrastructure and the funding, we still delivered. You know, you look at the women's rugby getting to the final the other day in cricket, the Euros. You can go through various sports and women have powered through you know regardless of the investment level so now what we've got is visibility broadcast broadcast opportunities and also that commercial investment I think that's the cycle that's needed and then that money gets plowed back into making the sports better and better so for me I think we're at most of the

an acceleration point I don't even think we've scratched the surface of what's possible. Okay. Do you agree with that, Tanni? I mean, what does success look like for you? So I'm a bit older than Ebony. So, you know, I kind of, I went to a sporty school, but, you know, the options for women and girls were more limited. I've sat in so many interviews over the years where they've been able to dig up some misogynistic man who'll say well they don't play the same do they no and that's that's not a

bad thing so i think we've we just keep having these steps up so you know the 2012 games olympics and paralympics were called the women's games because of huge british success but actually what you also need you need football need cricket, you need rugby as well to consolidate that. So, you know, what's amazing for me is that on the back of the lionesses, it's not just young girls talking about playing football. It's like the number of boys who know the names

of female footballers. And so it is an exciting time, but there's more to do. What does success look like? It is actually when we're talking about the same transfer fees that are equal to that of men. It's when we're talking about female professional rugby players who are on, you know, proper contracts, not sort of £20,000 a year, you know. So it's not just about money. It is about profile, but we are making really big steps. I'm really curious about that term you used

from a misogynistic man. For example, they don't play the same. Do you think that mindset has gone? No, it's less. I think what you find now, it's harder to find those people who'll sit alongside you in an interview. But actually, I think what you find now it's it's harder to find those people who'll who'll sit alongside you in an interview but actually I think what we're seeing is a generation of youngsters coming through who

just don't differentiate who just want to see good sport I mean uh I did have someone once again you know it was the assumption that all men's sports brilliant I've seen some fairly average men's sport well you know so it's not like men's sport's amazing and women's sport's a bit dull. You know, it's sport. So, you know, I think the more that we see women on TV, you know, doing it. I remember when Helen Rollison became presenter

of grandstands, 1989-ish. And it was almost, it was front page news. How dare the BBC allow a woman to present grandstands, you know, and she kind of powered through and, you know, she's one of the women whose shoulders that we stand on because she sort of dealt with it. So, you know, the more women we see on TV, the more women we have commentating and playing, the better it will be. It is interesting, isn't it, to think back to 89 and what a groundbreaking appointment that was seen at the time. Let me turn back to you, Ebony.

I know you're nodding along with a lot of what Tanni is saying there, but let's talk about cricket. Let's call it your home sport. Is that fair? So we've seen the launch of the Women's 100. What impact do you think that has had? And tell me how you see women's cricket right now. Yeah, I think that the first thing that really blew everybody's mind, the first game of the 100, the women play before the men,

but obviously both teams. I remember it being down at the Oval. I was commentating on, and the crowd, first of all, was much bigger than people expected. I think people maybe thought everyone would filter in for the men's game later. Was the crowd different? No, people would come in as families.

What I would say is the women's audiences tend to be more family orientated and more diverse. So the audiences that commercial people are trying to actually engage often are attracted to women's sport more. And so, one, the visibility went through the roof. Two, then the ticket sales was went through the roof two then the ticket sales just went through the roof and actually this year last year that because of the Commonwealth Games the women didn't play at the same time as the men and people said the competition missed something by not having the women there they actually felt that drove the competition gave it but sometimes better quality games sometimes you know just that rounded feel the right

family atmosphere and so it started it's starting to become quite clear for us in cricket that the women's product is most probably growing at a faster rate now than the men the men's audience is much more mature um whereas people are really excited about what's possible and then there's been knock-on effects like you look now recently there's another tournament that's just launched and it's sold for 465 million in ind it's called the Indian Premier League I actually dusted off my pads going on social media I was like wow that is incredible the players fees are going to be through the roof the broadcast per game is just off a million pounds and how did that happen do you think well it's been it's been the visibility has been just getting better and better the global

events have attracted massive crowds I was at um I was out in Australia covering the final of the last T20, which was nearly 90,000 people in the stadium. So what the business people behind are seeing is the growth of the audience, the standards going through the roof, young boys and girls wanting to follow their heroes and be part of that. There's a whole engine that's being created.

So for me, women's cricket is miles further than it ever was there's still things I would like to see changed you know even you take the hundred tournament the top pay is maybe okay but I'd still say if you're one of the the lower paid players you still could be on twenty thousand pounds like there is such a gap between sort of what are the top players can now command versus the lower players. So there's still work to do. But what is clear is the performance is there. The audience is there. The visibility and broadcast is game changer to what it was when I was growing up and playing. And I can feel that enthusiasm coming from you.

Tani, what about Paralympic female success? Do you think enough is being done to harness that talent in the UK? Well, I think it's really interesting in Paralympic sport. There's probably, you know, women are better known than men in some cases. You know, Sarah Story, Ellie Simmons, you know, it's kind of interesting the way that that works out. I think this could be a whole debate. Actually, there's probably more equality in

paralympic sport between sponsorship uh and media coverage isn't that an interesting concept though why uh honest answer i think disabled people all get lumped in together a little bit so um you know the differentiation between men and women in mainstream sport is quite big but in paralympic sport it's it's much closer maybe because it's still seen as like a younger movement. You know, there's probably someone studying that right now. So, you know, it's hard in some of the smaller sports, whether that's mainstream or disability, to get profiling between games, you know, in terms of what we see on TV or in the media.

But, you know, there's some really exciting things, you know, with technology. Actually, now you can sort of find sport in lots of different ways that it doesn't have to be necessarily through the mainstream media and I think that's a real benefit for women's sport you know my plug to women's sport it's still a really good investment in terms of where it's going um so you know it's it's there's loads of opportunities there now Now, you are, Tanni, in the House of Lords. Decisions are made there following on. Do you think women's sport is being prioritised? Because listeners may remember the Lionesses wrote a letter to Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss,

both standing to be Prime Minister at that time. Both ended up being Prime Minister. But asking for girls to be allowed to play football at school. Do you think people are listening in a different way now um not yet um sport physical activity never quite gets to the top of the priority list um and you've got to find ways of elbowing it in but actually if we look at it from the grassroots actually being physically active is really important for women 80 percent of women are not fit enough to be healthy so we we have to do as much as we can to raise that priority.

And, you know, linking to serious stuff like the NHS, you know, we need to keep people out of the NHS. So actually sport and physical activity has a massive role to play, but government does need to understand that. Not fit enough to be healthy. That is quite a statistic. Yeah, it's scary stuff so we know girls you know drop out age eight they start disengaging uh what clothes they're expected to wear causes you know

issues um you know opportunity whether we still value sporty boys more than sporty girls and then it continues up so you know and women put their family, you know, if you've not had a great experience of PE in school, then you might not enjoy it later on in life. You know, I think Ebony and I both had an amazing experience. So that's why we get involved. So the physical activity stuff, and actually coming back to the power list, I'm really interested in who we're going to have nominating grassroots in some of the sections in terms of actually changing this behaviour. Women need to put themselves first more than they currently do.

Amen. Because actually with our list, I should say, our chair of judges is Jessica Crichton. And she talked listeners through the five categories that make up the power list. So we have sportswomen, leaders, amplifiers, they could be broadcasters or agents, change makers, which are campaigners, and grassroots. You've mentioned what you're excited about, Tani. What about you, Ebony? Yeah, I think sometimes it's the names that you don't hear actually

that get me quite excited. You know, I look at my journey and there were people who, you know, did so much in terms of support, travel, getting me scholarships, bursaries, supporting grassroots clubs that often don't get mentioned. And so I think that's the excitement. Also, you know, I think also a lot of campaigners do great work and, you know, I don't want to bias people, but you hear of, you know, women in sport and their previous chair who's just left. She was

someone who was focusing on campaigning for 30% of women on governing sporting boards. And so the impact that's had having more women in positions of power over the last five to 10 years has meant that a lot of these changes have taken place. And so I'm really excited to hear the names that people put forward. I think we're going to see some obvious ones. You know, football is most probably flying the visibility flag. The players that are leading the charge, their coach, Serena Wiegman, at the moment is just an absolute legend that, you know, you just watch her and what happened at sports personality. I think actually that's one thing I would say.

Sports personality was a turning moment for me. Seeing Serena Wiegman win coach of the year, the team win team of the year. Jill Scott had just come off doing I'm a Celebrity. And I just thought previously would the public have voted for that many female athletes? You know, I'm not sure we would have seen that much and so that was a turning point for me. So the consciousness, the awareness

of who people are is growing and growing and I'm really looking forward to seeing, one, the names that come forward but also the unexpected and unheard names that don't get heard normally. Yeah, and I should also mention you launched the ACE programme which is a charity aimed at encouraging young people from African and Caribbean heritage

into the game so trying to also diversify the people that we will be choosing on the power list and I should say as well if people haven't submitted yet, put Tanni and Ebony to work. Get to it. We want to fight. I know Tanni and Ebony to work get to it

we want to fight I know Tanni can more than hold her own oh I would oh to be a fly on the wall when yous are actually judging as I did mention our chair of judges

is Jessica Crichton and on last Thursday's programme she launched it so you can listen back to that on BBC Sounds and next week I'll be speaking to our third judge

the Olympic hockey player turned broadcaster Sam Sam Quek. So for now, submit your suggestions for The Power List on the Woman's Hour website. Tanni and Ebony are standing by. Thank you both so much.

Thank you so much. All right. I was asking at the beginning of the programme, how's your morning going? If your teacher's striking or not striking or maybe a parent has...

How have the past few hours been let me read a little for you i'm a teacher who is striking in my second year of teaching the strike to me is more about working conditions the average teacher works 60 hours a week in comparison to the 37 we're paid for we're short on resources learning support assistance and i have an average of 32 to 35 children in my classrooms not conducive to the best learning conditions that this country is more than capable of. Let me see. Hi, Woman's Hour. I'm a secondary school English teacher striking today, also mother of a one year old. Teaching has become an incredibly tough profession and I'm finding that I can't cope. I'm part time. I still work every day. It's a funding issue, but also a systemic issue where the workload expected of teachers is too much

and I'm thinking of quitting the profession as it's encroaching on my personal life and my life as a mother. This makes me deeply sad, saying that teaching should be compatible with parenthood, not the reverse as she is finding it. Keep them coming, 84844 and at BBC

Woman's Hour on our social media if you'd like to get in touch or just go to our website maybe submit a nomination

for the Woman's Power List and email us at the same time one other question I have for you do you know your partner's ex what are your feelings

towards them intrigue jealousy Nothing at all? Maybe fondness? Maybe friendship? Well, the pop star Katy Perry, she gained attention this week for her friendship with the model Miranda Kerr. Miranda is the ex-wife of Orlando Bloom, who Katy Perry is now engaged to. And on Instagram, the singer posted about her friend saying,

I loved celebrating my fave Aussie and sister from another Mr. Miranda Kerr. I love our modern family. Does this ring true for you? Is this how you feel about your partner's ex? Or perhaps you love your ex's new partner or maybe you're friends with your ex's previous partner, even though neither of you are even with that individual anymore.

We want all the stories. Get in touch. Yep, 84844 is the text at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. Now, sitting opposite me, listening to about exes and partners,

I'm not going to ask that. I've got a lot to say. It's Helena Bonham Carter. I don't even need to introduce you when people hear your voice. One of our best known actors. Played everyone from Royalty, Princess Margaret in The Crown,

Elizabeth the Queen Mother in The Queen's Speech, Bellatrix Lestrange, surely one of the best villains in the Harry Potter films, Enola Holmes' Formidable Mother, Eudoria,

the Netflix films with Millie Bobby Brown. Loving all of them. Now a different role. The Queen of the Midlands. Noel Gordon, or Nolly, as she was known to her friends. Indeed.

Nolly starred in this hugely popular TV soap Crossroads in the 60s and 70s. And if you've never seen it, it doesn't matter. Because in the new three-part drama on ITV written by Russell T Davies, Nolly is shown reeling from the news, which we're going to play in just a moment

that her contract has not been renewed and this is a woman who shaped the show was on the show for 18 years. Shall we listen before speaking to Helena a little of the press conference when that happens. No, I wasn't just an actress here. I was staff. I was the spine of ATV.

And the heart. And the soul. And the guts. I practically invented daytime TV. Crossroads was built around me. Everyone says the star of the show is the motel, but let me tell you, the star of the show is not a bunch of flats held together by plywood and cellotape and spit. The star of the show has been sacked.

Oh, it is so good. I got to watch the first episode of Nolly last night and, well, welcome. I can understand why she is such an appealing character to play. But tell me, in your words, what attracted you to her? Oh, I just from the moment that I got the script, the script came through and I started reading it. And honestly, he's just such a brilliant writer. And I thought, thank my lucky stars, it has landed on my lap. And she's so fun from the go.

If you've seen the first episode. Yes. By the way, two more. Oh, I know. Do you know what? I wanted to watch the movie last night, but I loved it so much. I make myself wait. That's the sign of an intelligent person.

Oh, really? Yeah. Well, I think it was a sign of an intelligent dog, but I'm sure it's a prize. I'll take it. I love dogs. It's all good. Anticipating. Yeah. Well, I think it was a sign of an intelligent dog, but I'm sure it's the same thing. I'll take it. I love dogs. It's all good. Anticipating. Yeah. Making yourself wait for pleasure. This could go anywhere. But no, she's he's such a great writer and Nolly's such a great, complicated, not easy, but fantastic person. She was the queen. She was probably the most famous person in Britain.

She was the queen of the Midlands. This is in the 80s. I think very few people will, certainly of, you know, modern generations, I mean, now, no one would know who she was. And even I, even though I'm 56, so I had watched Crossroads, but not avidly. I was aware of it. It was on in the background. It was on in the background.

It was on in the background. And so at the end of the great script that I read, I immediately went on to YouTube going like, Jesus, I've got to look up, who is this Noel Gordon? And there's this amazing interview with Russell Harty on YouTube. There's two great ones, 1981 and 1983, which of course you must watch. I will.

And I thought it's on the eve of the day that she's sacked. And you couldn't have had more of a public humiliation than being sacked. For 19 years, she was on the soap opera and she was sacked publicly. And no warning, no reason. And do we even know now? Well, Russell, after sort of talking to a lot of people, he's, she never found out. No, never. But in this, you do.

And this is what he surmises. And it's not a huge sort of, it's, yeah, I mean, it's a sort of predictable thing. It kind of, it's about ageism too. I mean... She was 61. She was 61. And she was immediately replaced by Gabriel Drake, lovely Gabriel Drake, who was 30 years younger.

Redhead too. It couldn't have been more blatant. And I think it wasn't just because she was old. She was very clever and older. Dangerous combination. No, you mustn't. If we're going to have to, if we have to age,

which is a crime these days, we must be thick, you know, not don't threaten and be very apologetic. That's what I loved about her. In fact, when I watched that Russell Hodge,

she is, there's not an ounce of apology. Most people will want to crawl into a dark cave if you've been sacked and publicly. Every single day, people came up and said,

why did they get rid of you? Why did they get rid of and said why'd they get rid of you why'd they get rid of you why'd they get rid of you and she was like and she went on russell hearty and uh basically faced said exactly how it was she also um reminded me in some ways of princess margaret i just want to kind of give people like the fur coat the head scarf the cigarette she had the same armour. Yeah, there was something at first I thought, there are bits. The same, she hid behind the same things, the sort of the icon, you know,

but then beyond that there's a hell of a lot of... Yes, and I mean, you might say hid behind, but actually you can't take your eyes off her. She, unlike Margaret, well, Margaret liked to be watched. She knew that that was her principal job as a royal well margaret liked to be watched she knew that that was her principal job as a royal was she was going to be seen um and but uh nollie was somebody who loved to be seen she was a born performer she was her mother pretty much put her on the stage, age two.

And she went to RADA when she was 15. She was born in the East End, completely self-created. It's so much about her. You wonder, a woman in that time, how she managed to achieve all these goals. I believe went to the States also to study daytime TV and kind of bring that knowledge back she was given um loup grade and possibly val val parnell interesting um who was in fact her her partner for 20 years was his mistress i suppose is the the strict term because he was married we can go back loop back to that because that was an interesting thing about seeing your ex and then. But but they sent her to research in to New York to study how broadcasting and live sort of daytime TV was done.

Then she came back and she was given Lunchbox. She did it for about nine years, which was a daytime television show. And that's what she and she was also she was a presenter. was an interviewer she she interviewed harold mcmillan she was in fact weirdly coincidentally um almost accidentally the first woman on color television um so there was a lot of first about her she was a pioneer she was a trailblazer. And she made, she did start the way for a lot of people like, you know, our current day wonderful women who are presenting. But little known. I think Russell and that team are really good at sticking up for the underdog or uncovering stories of people who've been just brushed under the carpet for whatever reason. They did that with

It's a Sin. They've done it. That was a whole different, obviously, story and a generation of people had gone and lost. And he felt, when he wrote, he wrote me a lovely letter as if he needed to. I mean, Jesus, the script was enough. Which was saying, like, we need to give her a proper send-off.

This woman deserves a proper goodbye. And she wasn't given it. I think what he does often is remind us of a time for some of us that have actually lived through it but haven't totally understood the implications

of the ramifications of that time within It's a Sin or I found watching Nolly as well. Oh my goodness, there was this woman that was in our midst

that was in the background or on our television that perhaps we didn't realise what a fully formed character she was. But she was 61 as we, when she was sacked. What's your personal experience of ageing as an actress been? Well, so far, so far it's going well.

I mean, the fact that I got Nolly, I was thinking, God, I'm so lucky at my age to get this part, which is frankly possibly one of the best parts I've ever been offered and at my age. Then part of me thought, like, how sad that I even have to go be apologised for my age, you know, that I naturally expect it's going to get worse. But it's getting better, you know. It is getting better. I mean, for one, I think it's getting better for everyone

because of the amount of streaming services. I mean, telly, it's the age of telly, isn't it? All these things are being made. It's sometimes, however, still so much pressure on looks or to look a certain way or cosmetic surgery. Is that something you've bumped up against? Oh, all the time. But you can't not bump up against it.

I mean, every single magazine, Instagram, anything, it's all about thou shalt not age. You know, it's a dirty word isn't it aging so how do you come pathologically I think we're all obsessed by it it's sort of pathological thou must you know it's almost a crime there's shame attached and how do I do it how do you not succumb to what's who says I don't I'll do what makes me happy, you know, and hopefully not make me look ridiculous. What's good is that I'm employed to be other people. Yes.

So whatever is appropriate for that other person, I keep that in mind. You know, at the end of the day, you can get really obsessed. And I think it's also to do with that's the one thing we can control, you know. Well, we can't actually control what we look like, but we think we can. And we're always being sold like, but in fact, there's so much else that we should worry about. But, you know, I'm definitely the cliche of saying I'm miles happier than I was younger I don't want to ever go back there

my envelope might be less strictly but you know aesthetically pleasing but I'm much on the inside I'm much more interesting and dynamic and I think attractive most definitely do you think Nolly would have what definitely um do you do you think nollie would have what would she have done do you think coming up against those pressures which she did against age

but i think she just carried on i mean this is the thing is that she was in her prime and i think we've got it'd be great if we could just change things, our societal, you know, rules and say, come on, we are in a prime in our 60s. We've got everything. We're not sort of, and we come into our power. And I think she was being punished for coming into our power in a weird way. And that's why she may have been sacked. I think they got rid of her because of that. I mean, she did talk a hell of a lot. She might have been sacked because of that. But she also, I think, was sacked for being too powerful, for running the show, which she should have, frankly, because she knew it back to front and she'd been doing it for 19 years. And for being too clever and having too much authority.

I think she threatened people, other people in the upstairs, as she says, the suits. How was her life afterwards? It was tough. I think anybody who's been a soap actor, and she was, you know, she had been in the show for 19 years, so she really was Meg Richardson in everyone's imagination. So she was pretty realistic.

There wasn't much professional life open to her. She did stage, which was, she goes on, and this is in episode three, she goes on to play Gypsy, which is a massive part. It's like Hamlet, particularly if you're in your 60s. It's like the stamina. And it was to huge success.

But there was complications there, wouldn't transfer, all sorts of things. And so she sort of did shows, toured the Middle East. It wasn't a great, and then I won't tell you the end. Okay, no, not there yet. But it wasn't great.

Put it this way, I think it was the beginning of her demise and I really don't think she recovered from being sacked. Because it was such a shock. I won't, we played a little bit of the clip but when people watch it,

they'll know exactly kind of what an impact it had on her. But she's such a forceful character. Obviously you're totally in the role. I hear you sometimes decide to channel Nolly. Russell said we were impressive.

Oh my God, she's popping up all over the place. Oh God, help us. She was very she just like was a power she did power through but she was a daytime tv presenter so she kept things going and she would fill in it probably like you i mean she knew how to fill in every single second and everything was on an upward inflection to make sure that she was going to carry on and uh there's certain things that yeah residues of nollie pop up uh she was very blunt she was very much to the point i mean you had to be if you were rehearsing crossroads

um and getting it on there was only 19 minutes you i mean you had there was a hell of a it was a mixture of no time and too much time in the sense that they had a lot of work to get through every day and then they had 19 minutes to... I mean, I think the style of Crossroads acting was that it was quite slow and quite in a different time zone almost, but it was because they couldn't edit it after, so they had to fit it in to 19 minutes.

So there was a sort of slow, monotonous feel to it and yet off i think she was come on we got to do it got to do it she was very very very good conductor there was one part actually if it under run if they were too short off the material yeah sometimes a telephone would ring that's the way so the phone would ring if they needed if they were under running and she would be brilliant at picking up And there are lots of clips of her just picking it up and just totally, she's brilliant at making things up, mostly about how to get to the motel. Yes, we are two and a half miles from Stratford-upon-Avon.

If you follow the roundabout at the A2 and the A4, then you take the first left, and thank you so much. And what time will you be arriving? You know, that sort of thing. I should have had a telephone in some of the studios. Hello? Oh, we have a thing. I should have had a telephone in some of the studios. Hello? Oh, we have a caller. It's wonderful, I have to say.

I loved it so much and I'm really looking forward to watching the next episode tonight as well. You were talking about how it was handed on then to the next person that was quite blatant, shall we say, this younger redhead that came in. Just thinking, you played Princess Margaret in series three and four of The Crown, also wonderful. Was it strange handing it over to Leslie Manville? I think by the time we'd done two seasons, and had been sort of, the two seasons have spread over two years, as it were. So by the time I felt that we were not phoning it in,

but we were, it was time to hand it on. It was a bit of loss because you, a bit like feeling demoted. I mean, frankly, it is, and I could relate to that and put that into Nolly. The part you're playing, often people who you're working with, you know, you're treated a bit like whoever you're playing.

So, you know, they go with the fiction. So I did feel like i was being treated like princess margaret so i felt a bit you know oh where are they all gone you know i'd also like to know do you channel princess margaret sometimes i've it's funny how people they're like having lodges and then they come and then they go and sometimes you go like that reminds you of something you think oh somebody else that i played margaret did linger she um but no i think she's gone now there's um she did a lot of not um a lot of pausing actually quite the opposite to nollie beyond the fur coat and the thingy i realized realised, of course, Margaret was often in retreat and Nolly was very much available.

And Margaret was very private and protected. Nolly was actually protected. I don't think many people knew the real, real essential, Noel Gordon, because she was so, there was such a front. But I think that came from years of being a presenter,

years of being on stage, years of being Meg Richardson. There was a real professional front and presented. And she was a real pro. And also, sorry, she didn't have a family. And I think that's central to her. She didn't have children. She wasn't married. She was single.

And Russell's quite interesting, feeling that the suits and the men felt threatened by that too. Couldn't quite place her. And there's a wonderful line talking about the silent army of women with no name. Who are the women who are not defined by any man? They're not married to a man. They don't have children. They just immediately thought of as being lesbian.

Everyone thought Nolly was a lesbian, but it wasn't a kind way. It was almost a sort of, it was an insult then. It was like othering. She wasn't. She wouldn't have had any problem if she was but the fact was she did have an affair with with a married man for 20 years and she felt and i think a lot of people you know um had a sort of prejudice against that interesting enough you talked about seeing your ex so she well not mine but no no but when she was with valent Parnell, who was this great impresario, she also met the wife and they all knew about each other.

So that was an interesting situation. Helena Bonham Carter, it's been a joy. Thank you so much for coming in. I shall watch the next couple of episodes and I'm sure our listeners will as well. It is on ITVX from tomorrow, Thursday the 2nd and Front Row will also be reviewing it on Radio 4. I hope they like it. I'm sure they will. Now, I want to turn to something completely different.

Experiencing three or more concussions is linked to worsened brain function in later life. This is according to a new study led by the University of Oxford and Exeter. The research is the largest of its kind and it included the data of 15,000 people in the UK that found the attention and completion of complex tasks were particularly affected. Meanwhile, in Canada, researchers there estimate that approximately one in eight women are likely to be suffering from an unrecognised brain injury

related to domestic violence. Millions of dollars are spent in Canada each year studying the impacts of traumatic brain injuries, but on professional male athletes' brains, such as hockey players. But there's very little known about the injuries suffered by female victims of intimate partner violence. Well, experts at universities and also health institutes are now advocating for more

research. I spoke to two of them. They happen to be a couple. It's Karen Mason, co-founder of the Supporting Survivors of Abuse and Brain Injury Through Research Project, known as SOAR, and a former executive director of the Kelowna Women's Shelter in Canada. And also Dr. Paul Van Donkelaar, who's a clinical neuroscientist at the University of British Columbia, who specializes in concussion research. And I asked by Karen by asking how she first came across that link between intimate partner violence and brain injuries. An article crossed my desk that was an editorial connecting brain injury to intimate partner violence. And it was my light bulb moment. There I was running a shelter, supporting women every day, training staff every day.

And this had never, ever occurred to any of us. There wasn't training in this. There were not, there weren't research papers at the time that we had seen. So needless to say, given I was dating a concussion researcher, I've forwarded the article to Paul and basically said, what the heck are you doing studying athletes? We need to study women. And what about this, Paul? So Karen messages you, emails you the article, asking you that question, why sports players and not domestic abuse survivors?

Yeah, well, so as a scientist, I was very curious to try to understand, you know, what had been done previously in terms of the research. So I went to PubMed, which is the kind of universal database where you search for articles on a specific topic. And I typed in, you know, domestic abuse, intimate partner violence, brain injury, concussion. And I think a grand total of about 10 articles came up and, you know, only really one of which was a lab-based assessment of different aspects of brain function in survivors of intimate partner violence, looking specifically at the potential

links to brain injury. If you compare that to articles on sport-related concussion, there was about 10 articles every day on that topic, right? So clearly the focus was and still is on brain injury in that population for good reason, right? There's lots of obviously really important work and really important knowledge and awareness around when you should pull someone out of play, whether it's ice hockey or American football or soccer, rugby, and when it's safe for them to return. But basically nothing on the intersection between brain injury and independent partner violence. And when I began reading about this, you know, I've seen some of those documentaries as well, when they followed former sports stars, for example,

and some of the devastating consequences that there can be for them when it comes to repeated concussions. What is the case when it comes to people who have had intimate partner violence, Paul? Yeah, it's the same as far as we can tell. So much of our research to date has looked at basically the exposure to head impacts as a result of intimate partner violence. And, you know, looked at various assessments of brain function, things that we look at in young athletes who've got a sport related concussion. We can apply those same measures to women who've experienced intimate partner violence. And we find, and others who are doing this work, find that there's a distinct relationship between how much exposure you've had

and the different changes in brain function in a manner that's analogous to what we see after a sport-related concussion. So spell those out for our listeners. What might people be looking at? What would the effects be? How would it manifest? Yeah, certainly I think the most relatable things are the kind of day-to-day symptoms that a person may experience. So headache, dizziness, difficulty concentrating, difficulty sleeping.

And they can also play out in terms of behavioral aspects. So emotional dysregulation, having a challenge, looking after your children or interpersonal relationships with others, whether it's friends or family or work. And so all those things that we see in the kind of acute and subacute phase in people who've had a concussion, whether it's from sports or some other injury mechanism, we tend to also see in women who've experienced a concussion, whether it's from sports or some other injury mechanism, we tend to also see in women who've experienced intimate partner violence. Many of these women, these injuries have been happening over years, multiple incidents increasing in frequency and increasing in severity. And in the context of organizations that are there to serve women, if the training and understanding

aren't there, that certain behavioral issues could be caused by a physical injury, if the training and understanding aren't there, that certain behavioral issues could be caused by a physical injury, then the right supports aren't given. So for instance, in the context of a women's shelter, where you have multiple families and women living in the same facility or household, perhaps a woman with a brain injury isn't doing her chores like she's supposed to in that communal living setting. Perhaps she's having a lot of trouble managing her children and managing her emotions when managing her children. Maybe she forgets to show up at her appointments and she doesn't bring those papers she's supposed to bring

to that legal appointment. If you don't understand that this could be caused by a physical injury that was the fault of the partner, you might not be able to provide the right support and empathy to this woman. And then, Karen, I'm wondering about those women even getting the diagnosis that they have a brain injury, perhaps already a very difficult situation that they have been in or are in. Talk me through that a little.

That's absolutely an issue. We found that the women who've gone through Paul's study to a fault, most of them hadn't even considered that they might've experienced a brain injury in their relationship because this is what they live with every day. It's their normal to wake up in the morning and perhaps feel dizzy and confused and to forget things. They've heard from him for years that they're stupid, that they're a bad parent, that they can't remember things, and it must be their fault. And so this is what they believe. But the women we worked with, many of them said they found some comfort in having a label to put on these issues and challenges that they had faced for so long, and to be able to realize that it wasn't their fault,

that it was something that he had done to them. But certainly the ability to actually diagnose is more difficult in this context because as Paul can speak to, these injuries don't happen in front of other people generally. They happen behind closed doors. And so it's really difficult unless someone has seen the mechanism of injury and is able to respond right away. It's difficult to actually diagnose that a brain injury might have occurred. And another challenging aspect of that in this population in particular are the other comorbidities that come along with experiencing one or more episodes of intimate partner violence. So things like post-traumatic stress disorder and depression,

anxiety, especially if it's happening over a long period of time. Some of the effects of those can look a lot like what you see in terms of the signs and symptoms of a brain injury. And so from a clinical diagnostic perspective, disentangling how much of the person's challenges are due to one or more brain injuries versus the these comorbidities that come along with the experiences is really challenging. Paul also with research that you were looking at with women with brain injuries how they're treated by the Canadian justice system and we're just talking about Canada at this point but when faced with parenting disputes, this can also play into perhaps people being reluctant to come forward for diagnosis and indeed the stigma around it. Yeah. So that's a study that we published last year.

And it was a qualitative study where we set up scenarios with family law lawyers basically saying either the person has a brain injury due to intimate partner violence or they don't. But in both cases, they've experienced one or more episodes of intimate partner violence. And then we asked the lawyers in this hypothetical scenario, what would you do? How would you take into account the fact that a brain injury had occurred? And we asked them from both perspectives if they were counsel for the survivor or counsel for the perpetrator. In their responses, they noted that because the links between brain injury and intimate partner violence aren't well understood, that the information related to a potential brain injury could actually be weaponized against a woman in a court proceeding

such that it could be used to suggest that they're a bad parent because they don't have the capacity due to a brain injury to be able to do the things that we all kind of take for granted as parents. Well, what about that, Karen? Like, are women aware that it could be weaponized against them in potential cases? I think sadly, certainly in Canada and the United States, and I believe to some extent in the UK as well, I think women are more than aware that a whole lot is weaponized against them when it comes to them dealing with intimate partner violence in the court system, particularly when it comes to parenting. We know that mental health issues can occasionally be weaponized

against a woman and used to suggest she's an unfit mother. It's an ongoing systemic issue, and brain injury really just adds another layer to a problem that already exists in our justice system. I mean, how many people are we talking about that this could potentially affect in Canada, for example, Karen? You know, if you consider that women make up half the population and the global statistic for intimate partner violence is that one in three women will experience it in their lifetime. Certainly in Canada, that statistic in our most recent research shows 44% will experience intimate partner violence in their lifetime. But if you then consider the shame and stigma still attached to this issue, and that so many women either don't report at all or don't even recognize that this is the situation in which they're living, we know the numbers are substantially higher. Now take what the research is showing that as many as 92% of women in a violent relationship will experience a brain injury. And the numbers

are staggering, almost incomprehensible when you consider the attention we pay to sports. And then you talk about the stigma, which is a big part of this as well, to people coming forward, getting diagnosed, also worrying about weaponization, as you mentioned. How do you change that? Education and awareness. I think it's into the hands of all the different sectors, all the different jobs where people have some impact on women experiencing intimate partner violence. So everything from frontline staff at women's shelter, police, paramedics, the health care system, the legal justice system. I mean, the list goes on and on. Right. So the more folks that work in those sectors start to assume that a brain injury is likely in this population,

the more able they'll be able to provide appropriate supports. And before I let you go, Karen, I'd just be curious for women when they have been diagnosed with a brain injury, and obviously it'll be different with each person, but what the reaction is? In the women with whom we've worked, there has been a palpable sense of relief, some sense of justification. Okay, this isn't me. This isn't my fault. This is something that he did to me. And now that I have a name for it, perhaps there are things I can do that will help me function better in life, that will help me be stronger and be healthier and

be able to regulate my emotions and get better. And we've been doing some work in that area and some rehabilitation with women to help them improve not only brain function, but just functioning every day in life. Because if you consider how high the numbers are, we have women around the world who are trying to parent and go to work and keep things together who may be dealing with brain injury and don't even know it. Karen Mason and Dr. Vandant Kalar, thanks to them. I just want to finish with a message we got from Jonathan about teacher strikes. It's a fact like an increasing number

across professions and society. They're less and less resilient. They work long hours, but they're compensated by paid holidays, which are long. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Are you confused about

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